Great explanation of why guitar music sounds an octave lower than concert pitch. If you check out The Complete Johnny Smith Approach To Guitar, he uses both bass and treble clefs to notate the actual concert pitch throughout the book. He gives an explanation and reasons why he chose to do this at the beginning of the book. Just thought I'd mention it. Cheers!
But the standard tuning was always the same as now and so was where the notes were written on the score and played on the neck, so the 8 (octave transposition) on the clef was implicit even if/when the 8 was omitted.
Don't be so picky. If you have notes for horn, and you play a C, it will sound as an F or Eb or something else, depending on the individual instrument... And there won't be a 5 or 6 below the clef, as far as I know.
"Why are we doing this absurd thing?" That is a question I ask myself frequently. Thank you for always having an answer. Fascinating explanation of a not-so-simple topic.
Tablature makes more sense. Fret number is an exact location and bends or whammy bar moves can also be written. The actual notation as we know it of ½, ¼, etc note can be used on tab as well as measure divisions. Different tunings are also accommodated when using tablature as the physical location on the fretboard is what is marked, not some tonal reference position.
Thanks you for explaining this. I was told when I was very young that the guitar transposes an octave down, but not why. Sometimes I want to play the notes for bass voice (Bass Clef) on guitar (not good at sight singing) so I want to know which fret is the actual sound of middle C. But now you've explanied why the transposition is done, thank you !
Thanks for sharing and clearing the confusion where the middle C4 should be for the G cleft or F cleft just like how we read music notes standard for guitar or keyboard players. The guitar range should start with low E3 to E6 meaning three octave notes that we can played all over the keyboard. Example : C major scale C4 D4 E4 F4 G4 A4 B4 C5 ( C4-C5 one octave position).
If we gave up on only using one staff and switched to the grand staff like piano uses, then the lowest note would be just one ledger line below the bottom staff and the highest 12th fret first string E would be in the top space of the top staff. Even going up another octave to the E on the 24th fret of some electric guitars would only add 3 ledger lines on top. I did a little searching to find out why it wasn't done that way originally, since that is nearly perfect fit for the range of a guitar. I didn't find any definitive answer but the top two reason seem likely to be (1) printing was expensive so they didn't want to double the cost of scores, and (2) the grand staff was used for keyboard instruments as a way to indicate which part is played by which hand. In effect they treated keyboards as if the player was playing two instruments, one with the left hand and one with the right, so each got its own staff using the clef that was appropriate for its range.
This is how I notate guitar for myself, BTW. I didn't say that in the video to avoid an internet crowd of notation fanatics with pitchfork and torches ;-)
I know this is a channel about music theory for guitar, but it seems like you have lot of knowledge in orchestration, so personally I would love to know more about this big topics of orchestration :)
The first musicians to develop the treatment of the guitar were violinists, who used the treble cleff. They transposed the octave for guitar to fit the familiarly used treble cleff. Much of the first written guitar music was as accompaniment for violin, so it's easy to see why the violinists used it. The old guitars had only 4 strings. As centuries have moved on we have added bass strings, with some modern production electrics being found with 7. The electric guitar range is also much higher than the old guitars. The range of the instrument should have two cleffs, as a piano does. In fact, using the piano would be a superior way to write out multi voiced arrangements, as classical guitarists do when they approach the instrument. We were limited by the violinists, and just need some bold arrangers to use 2 cleffs for it to become common..
Guitar is lower than is Intuitive for most guitar players. I became aware of this a while back and it took me a while to appreciate it. I think a big part of the misconception comes from the fact that guitar is often used as a vocal accompaniment instrument, and those instruments are usually not so low
Also you can put some guitar music in their "proper" octave if you put 8va and a dotted line over them. That helps because lead guitar often plays large sections well above the "octave down" range.
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar Hah, that depends on if you're talking about the guitar or the staff. Good call. What could confuse this even more is that 8ma is 2 octaves higher than written on staff, which is right for guitar and violin when playing high notes, but not for the staff as seen by a keyboard player. That's why piano players always look at guitar players that particular scowlsome way they do...
1st fret B string and 5th G are good examples of a middle C. Pitch and freq wise. For me C4 is middle C. But yes technically the staff for guitar is incorrect, it should be transported. Its an octave lower than it should
Yes, that's where you would play that C as written for guitar, but the actual pitch that the 3rd fret on the A string sounds is C below middle C. That's why guitar scores are transposed an octave, and why the guitar is therefore regarded as being a transposed/transposing instrument.
Music is written for guitar one octave higher so if a composer passes out written music at a recording session and wants a middle C played, he'll give the piano player music written so C appears between the treble and bass cleff and he'll hand the guitar player music showing that same sound written on the third space. Is this right?
Guitar should use the Alto clef like the viola does! (Yeah, I did play the viola when I was a kid what about it?) Nah, I'm just kidding I use tab so I am totally clefless mwahahahaha!
A simple solution would be to use the grand staff (with bass and treble clef) for the guitar, and teach new guitar students to learn to read music, and not be so lazy! Then you could represent middle C accurately.
Sure. I'll go back in time 300 years and tell them not to be lazy. And to do the same with all the wind instruments too, that are all transposed in different ways ;-)))
You'll need twice as much paper. And to change pages all the time. Be glad that there is a convention of simplifying the notation. After all you'll get a C when you play a C. A horn would sound as an F or Eb or something else, depending on the individual instrument.
today with computers and misiciens reradings sheet of several instruments the keys hav no more reason to exist, an unique key with octave transposition (+8 -8 etc...) is the modern way to write music.
Why so complicated? …. Standard notation for the guitar is written 1 octave higher than it actually sounds. So “middle C” or “central C” is played on the 1st fret of the 2nd string, or its unisons on the 5th fret of the 3rd string, or the 10th fret of the 4th string, or the 13th fret of the 5th string, or the 19th fret of the 6th string. /// The actual pitch of the guitar fits quite well on the a grand staff, F clef and G clef joined together like a piano.. It’s written on the G clef because that’s the way it’s been done since the late 1700’s. Good luck changing that tradition.
I have a burning quesiton.. Why do people spell the C minor scale like this "C D D# F G Ab Bb C" ? why do they use D# as a scale tonic? it's insane.. LOL
It's not piano-centric. I read both, but I also play in a big band with brass and keys, and we play from a score. Everyone reads notation, including the bass and guitar. It's just a case of associating the written note with the corresponding note(s) on the neck, ie. you just know the 3rd space on the notation is the 1st fret on the B string/5th fret on the G string, etc.
Both (tab and standard notation) have strong points and weak points. I have a video that talks about it at length. I am not opposed to either - I use both - but in today's internet, if you say "tablature" you can be SURE that someone will accuse you of not being a real musician or other such nonsense. The opposite does not happen.
the lesson i finally leaned from this is: middle c on piano is here, middle c on guitar is here. Thanks. Great video.
Great explanation of why guitar music sounds an octave lower than concert pitch. If you check out The Complete Johnny Smith Approach To Guitar, he uses both bass and treble clefs to notate the actual concert pitch throughout the book. He gives an explanation and reasons why he chose to do this at the beginning of the book. Just thought I'd mention it. Cheers!
The Johnny Smith book is one of the only books that I've found, which addresses this subject.
guitar notation should include the octave clef. a clef with a little number 8 attached.
Today is common to see this, yes. It wasn't always this way.
But the standard tuning was always the same as now and so was where the notes were written on the score and played on the neck, so the 8 (octave transposition) on the clef was implicit even if/when the 8 was omitted.
@@chrishurd9753 Yes, exactly
Don't be so picky. If you have notes for horn, and you play a C, it will sound as an F or Eb or something else, depending on the individual instrument... And there won't be a 5 or 6 below the clef, as far as I know.
Very clear explanation. Thank you sir.
"Why are we doing this absurd thing?" That is a question I ask myself frequently. Thank you for always having an answer. Fascinating explanation of a not-so-simple topic.
Tablature makes more sense. Fret number is an exact location and bends or whammy bar moves can also be written. The actual notation as we know it of ½, ¼, etc note can be used on tab as well as measure divisions. Different tunings are also accommodated when using tablature as the physical location on the fretboard is what is marked, not some tonal reference position.
Let’s make this simple… The guitar sounds one active lower than the written note on treble clef.
Keeps us from having to read bass clef also.
Thanks you for explaining this. I was told when I was very young that the guitar transposes an octave down, but not why. Sometimes I want to play the notes for bass voice (Bass Clef) on guitar (not good at sight singing) so I want to know which fret is the actual sound of middle C. But now you've explanied why the transposition is done, thank you !
Thanks for the clarification 👍
Very good; that's what I was thinking, because the 3rd fret of the 5th string is the lowest C we get unless we metal drop tune.
So much for the “universality” of “standard” notation.
Thanks for sharing and clearing the confusion where the middle C4 should be for the G cleft or F cleft just like how we read music notes standard for guitar or keyboard players. The guitar range should start with low E3 to E6 meaning three octave notes that we can played all over the keyboard. Example : C major scale C4 D4 E4 F4 G4 A4 B4 C5 ( C4-C5 one octave position).
The guitar range starts with E2, I think. More than one octave below the middle C4
Well, that explains it 😅
Thanks a lot! You just took me out of the dark.
If we gave up on only using one staff and switched to the grand staff like piano uses, then the lowest note would be just one ledger line below the bottom staff and the highest 12th fret first string E would be in the top space of the top staff. Even going up another octave to the E on the 24th fret of some electric guitars would only add 3 ledger lines on top.
I did a little searching to find out why it wasn't done that way originally, since that is nearly perfect fit for the range of a guitar. I didn't find any definitive answer but the top two reason seem likely to be (1) printing was expensive so they didn't want to double the cost of scores, and (2) the grand staff was used for keyboard instruments as a way to indicate which part is played by which hand. In effect they treated keyboards as if the player was playing two instruments, one with the left hand and one with the right, so each got its own staff using the clef that was appropriate for its range.
This is how I notate guitar for myself, BTW. I didn't say that in the video to avoid an internet crowd of notation fanatics with pitchfork and torches ;-)
I know this is a channel about music theory for guitar,
but
it seems like you have lot of knowledge in orchestration, so personally I would love to know more about this big topics of orchestration :)
I'm considering talking more about that.
The first musicians to develop the treatment of the guitar were violinists, who used the treble cleff. They transposed the octave for guitar to fit the familiarly used treble cleff. Much of the first written guitar music was as accompaniment for violin, so it's easy to see why the violinists used it. The old guitars had only 4 strings. As centuries have moved on we have added bass strings, with some modern production electrics being found with 7. The electric guitar range is also much higher than the old guitars. The range of the instrument should have two cleffs, as a piano does. In fact, using the piano would be a superior way to write out multi voiced arrangements, as classical guitarists do when they approach the instrument. We were limited by the violinists, and just need some bold arrangers to use 2 cleffs for it to become common..
tabs were invented to go with guitar.
Guitar is lower than is Intuitive for most guitar players. I became aware of this a while back and it took me a while to appreciate it. I think a big part of the misconception comes from the fact that guitar is often used as a vocal accompaniment instrument, and those instruments are usually not so low
Also you can put some guitar music in their "proper" octave if you put 8va and a dotted line over them. That helps because lead guitar often plays large sections well above the "octave down" range.
That's what I do. Sometimes 16va.
(it's 15a...)
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar Hah, that depends on if you're talking about the guitar or the staff. Good call. What could confuse this even more is that 8ma is 2 octaves higher than written on staff, which is right for guitar and violin when playing high notes, but not for the staff as seen by a keyboard player. That's why piano players always look at guitar players that particular scowlsome way they do...
@@LJHowardPhoto Yup, otherwise known as 8ma. The high notes on guitar and violin are in that range.
1st fret B string and 5th G are good examples of a middle C. Pitch and freq wise.
For me C4 is middle C. But yes technically the staff for guitar is incorrect, it should be transported. Its an octave lower than it should
I was taught (by an excellent musician) that the c one ledger line below the 'main' 5 is the c at the third fret of the a string.
aka what he said at 1:50
Yes, that's where you would play that C as written for guitar, but the actual pitch that the 3rd fret on the A string sounds is C below middle C. That's why guitar scores are transposed an octave, and why the guitar is therefore regarded as being a transposed/transposing instrument.
Music is written for guitar one octave higher so if a composer passes out written music at a recording session and wants a middle C played, he'll give the piano player music written so C appears between the treble and bass cleff and he'll hand the guitar player music showing that same sound written on the third space. Is this right?
Yes.
The Piano Player has to clefs: a bass clef and a violin clef (the same as the guitar)
🤘
This whole discussion applies equally to the electric bass. The bass clef notation actually sounds an octave lower than written.
Yes. And that's true of the double bass in an orchestra too.
Could you have written in the 8vb o 8va when using the G clef?
Today some composers do that to avoid misunderstanding. But it's more often implicit and the guitar player is supposed to know about it.
Guitar should use the Alto clef like the viola does! (Yeah, I did play the viola when I was a kid what about it?) Nah, I'm just kidding I use tab so I am totally clefless mwahahahaha!
You big meanie :-))
Treble clef of guitar is one octave lower than piano. That saves on ledger lines below standard treble clef. It's not that hard.
A simple solution would be to use the grand staff (with bass and treble clef) for the guitar, and teach new guitar students to learn to read music, and not be so lazy! Then you could represent middle C accurately.
Sure. I'll go back in time 300 years and tell them not to be lazy. And to do the same with all the wind instruments too, that are all transposed in different ways ;-)))
Dang. I learned back in the bad ol' days before tab became popular!
You'll need twice as much paper. And to change pages all the time. Be glad that there is a convention of simplifying the notation.
After all you'll get a C when you play a C. A horn would sound as an F or Eb or something else, depending on the individual instrument.
The cyrillic alphabet makes sense to those who use it also.
today with computers and misiciens reradings sheet of several instruments the keys hav no more reason to exist, an unique key with octave transposition (+8 -8 etc...) is the modern way to write music.
Why so complicated? …. Standard notation for the guitar is written 1 octave higher than it actually sounds. So “middle C” or “central C” is played on the 1st fret of the 2nd string, or its unisons on the 5th fret of the 3rd string, or the 10th fret of the 4th string, or the 13th fret of the 5th string, or the 19th fret of the 6th string. /// The actual pitch of the guitar fits quite well on the a grand staff, F clef and G clef joined together like a piano.. It’s written on the G clef because that’s the way it’s been done since the late 1700’s. Good luck changing that tradition.
Still can't understand why not use a bass and treble clef 😒🤔🙃😀
Why?
Great content, as always.
I have a burning quesiton.. Why do people spell the C minor scale like this "C D D# F G Ab Bb C" ? why do they use D# as a scale tonic? it's insane.. LOL
C natural minor should be spelled C D Eb F G Ab Bb.
And Eb is NOT the tonic. The tonic of C minor is C.
This is why, ultimately, guitar should be written in tablature rather than the piano-centric notation.
Ssshhh don't say this out loud on the internet :-)))
It's not piano-centric. I read both, but I also play in a big band with brass and keys, and we play from a score. Everyone reads notation, including the bass and guitar. It's just a case of associating the written note with the corresponding note(s) on the neck, ie. you just know the 3rd space on the notation is the 1st fret on the B string/5th fret on the G string, etc.
Sorry Tomasso. Just saying tab isn't better in every situation!
And sorry Jon if that came across bad. Not intended.
Both (tab and standard notation) have strong points and weak points. I have a video that talks about it at length. I am not opposed to either - I use both - but in today's internet, if you say "tablature" you can be SURE that someone will accuse you of not being a real musician or other such nonsense. The opposite does not happen.