This situation definitely got so much worse because the Seattle Kraken supported this terrible behavior. Can't imagine how stressed out Alex would have been that his own employers and management were essentially not only giving the green light but also more opportunities for these young women to sexually harass and humiliate him in public. Props to his wife for stepping up and publicly calling out how disrespectful and damaging this behaviour is in order to protect her husband and family which is what finally brought everything to light and made it stop.
After the whole controversy I kept wondering how the stress would affect the team. I think it’s interesting that the Kraken made the playoffs last season, but this season they are bottom 3 in their conference, and bottom in the rankings overall for the league.
I wonder what that girls mother/father/guardian thinks....like omg can you imagine if the child you raised subjected another human to that, spoke that way, treated that way to another person? It's staggering. The idea that the management was like ya, let's treat our players like sex idols, can't see anything wrong with that, like what. Tell us you're new to the NHL without telling us you're new to the NHL *eyeroll*
Gosh, I’m so tired of that “tiny woman, big strong dude” romance trope. Can someone write a romance novel between a girl who is a big muscular pro wrestler and a lanky, skinny short king who likes chess or something? I’d read that
There are definitely books for other body types. Olivia Dade is known for her fat rep, and released a book last year with two fat leads…she used the same designer as the one who did the cover for Icebreaker, but that artist really shows her range when working with Olivia Dade! But funny you mentioned chess players, because Ali Hazelwood wrote a chess player romance, and I’m 90% sure he’s still a giant, and she’s still tiny. It is YA though, so maybe it will be less sexual?
@@wouldntyouliketoknow7057 I just finished watching it and although I love it, you could tell that the min character was shown as still being relatively skinny compared to her teammates.
Booktok is such a scary place like hyping up okay-ish hockey smut books is one thing but taking real life people and making them into this fictional version of what you have in your brain is another. it’s so beyond weird that these days rpf has become so popular that people don’t feel any type of shame coming up to and harassing these people
i think the thing is is that it's poorly disguised rpf, but not actually claimed as it. hockey rpf has gone from niche online spaces where people write relatively privately to published books that blatantly write about real players but pretend they don't (some of them are pretty undeniable haha) and then people openly discuss them on a much more mainstream platform
Which is so wild bc in fanfic communities we’re finally seeing a true crackdown on Rpf and hatred of if the past few years. Like somehow on Ao3 in the actual fandom space that is viewed as the poster child for these things ppl hate it but it’s reached weird booktok shit and fanfic fandom space is getting blamed again lmao
I mean the problem with RPF is when it actually reaches the real world. It's all fine and good as long as everybody understands that the fourth wall needs to be preserved (ie understand difference between reality and fantasy and not try to mix them)
@@Louisa-Sophie No, RPF is always wrong. Part of its existence is literally doing just that, mixing reality and pretend. These are REAL people. It’s in the name. I’m not harping on you when I mention this, but even saying something like “fourth wall” here, is dangerous. Fourth wall is about fictional media. These people are not fictional, so it doesn’t matter if the places they’re written in are pretend. They’re real people, and headcanoning and writing about real people is actively bad, even just in the sense that the people who are being written about have spoken about disliking it. It’s about autonomy and privacy. /gen /nm
18:59 whenever book authors write ‘growl’ as an alternative all I can think about is the person making the tiniest bark that sounds like a chihuahua begging for food 😭
IKR omg what the heck are we supposed to imagine for that, I just self-insert another word, like writing has gotten so bad authors can't even pick a word other than 'GROWL' out of all the words
@@LilyEvans1996 Werewolves... If I read the word 'growl' I am associating it with werewolves and since I prefer fluffly romance part like cuddling and rubbing face/cheeks to scent SO, I read a lot werewolf fanfiction(mostly Teen Wolf). Growl=werewolves= hot
I find that if they want to thirst after fictional players then it's like weird but not offensive to other people. But when they take it to the extreme like alex's case it's so creepy. Like he didn't give you consent. Respect it. He's a human. He has real life problems and family.
No fr It’s super creepy and even as a skater- the sexualization of our sport is wild and idk why people can’t just respect and not be so overly obsessed over people like that. Ik a lot of people who are bothered by it at my rink. There really is no excuse for that even if there’s reasons behind it.
@@Huangraisy um yeah. There's this whole booktok X bikertok thing going on where they're posting thirst traps for each other. And there was this one 16 year old biker who wanted to be a part of the trend and gain a community of followers I guess, and he posted a video with a few teen dystopian novels like he hunger games, maze runner etc. then women in then comments section said that "those books aren't real books, you should instead read haunting Adeline" (context: haunting Adeline is a very toxic, problematic, abusive, romanticizing stalker romance, with various triggers and SA scenes in it) and I was like how dare you recommend these kinda books to a minor?!? But then some other women in e comments were also saying that "you need to learn from adult books and come back to me when you're a real man" and that's borderline grooming. A grown ass woman talking about a 16 year old boy who's posting for fun and clout in a sexual manner is pedophilia. But, the fact that no one in the comments section disagreed with those comments made me think that maybe they should stop normalising things like these. They don't get to make any minor (I'm a minor lmao sorry for the rant) feel unsafe in their safe space that they made to do something fun with no pressure from people. So yeah, I get you. You're point is valid.
Watching this video with NO prior knowledge of these books or the drama is very entertaining, but I feel incredibly sorry for that hockey player, those videos were so invasive
Idk, that means he has to go into it expecting to hate it and read several books all while scheming to shoot a diss video, targeting one particular author. That would feel very uncharacteristic of his content style.
I remember he gave 3 stars to 2 books of her i think and already said people are so harsh with her. She writes books in a way it's easy to read for some. So I don't think he will hate all her books just because some of her books were bad
@@kgal1298my boyfriend got me a kindle for christmas one year, and he paid for a year of kindle unlimited. I found maybe three books on there worth downloading, the rest were just smut. 😂 literally thousands of books with guys on the cover, glistening and shirtless. 😂😂
yeah, some people on booktok truly scare me. lately some women there started to sexualize a 16 year old just because he was riding a motorcycle. they started to recommend adult books to him too. like imagine that this kid was reading YA books like Hunger Games and Divergent and they were recommending him Haunting Adeline which romanticizes r@pe and is problematic on so many levels. they need to touch some grass asap
I attend a book club that focuses exclusively on YA. It’s a mix of adults, teenagers and children and the amount of times the adult members and staff recommend smut or 18+ books really frustrates me. One member will talk openly about Pucking Around just after another talks about how much they enjoyed Wings of Fury. It’s not a safe space for those kids.
I don't understand why they would do that especially if they know he's a minor like I fear some morals have gone out the window like that sounds a little predatory even if that's not the intention we are talking about a child he shouldn't have to deal with that
Went to the book store with friends recently and found Icebreaker under the KIDS section, so we immediately picked up the stack and put it on the appropriate shelf. Good gosh 😭
Seattle Kraken enabling the sexual harassment of one of their players provides a really interesting case study into the commodification of the body in sport. Usually, athletes’ bodies are commodified so the team can, understandably, compete and make money in the sport they exist within, however, Alex’s own team allowed his body to become a double source of income as they leaned into him being used as a source of desire. They effectively participated in the removal of Alex’s autonomy for money.
i’m a huge fan of hockey romances and have thirsted over my fair share of male leads, so I totally understand fans of this genre being thirsty for these fictional hockey men. the problem is when it bleeds into real life. you can sexualize fictional characters, not real people especially when they deadass have SPOUSES 💀💀💀 the seattle kraken situation just gives me the ick
And you can even have crushes on them irl, cause that’s always been a thing, people having a celebrity crush or whatever, but keep that shit off the internet. I’m not on TikTok, but it seems like a lot of the content has become- videos that should have never been made.
I always prefer the phrasing “rivals to lovers” to “enemies to lovers” because having the two love interests be rivals says to me that there actually is a reason for the shared dislike for each other. Two people competing for the same thing. I don’t love this genre either, but if it has to be anything, I very much prefer the rivals dynamic.
i agree rivals to lovers is such a better term for it. i feel like rivals to lovers implies that both people respected each other enough to see each other as a threat. you can't be threatened by someone unless you admit to yourself that they are as skilled as you. this being the basis for a romance shows that both people will come into the relationship with pre established respect and admiration for one another that i think can be missing from a lot of other tropes. it's still really common for women in romance novels to be looked down on by the love interest
i think it’s super weird that grown adults are still not understanding boundaries and consent. because the whole argument that oh “but the team was going along with it!!!!” means nothing once consent is taken back and boundaries are set. once someone says they’re uncomfortable with something, it should be very easy for you to say oh wow my bad i’ll stop doing that now!!!! but instead they all decided to get defensive. and i understand why said booktoker felt scapegoated, but unfortunately for her, she WAS one of the most (if not the most) vocal. and then to call the wife a “bitch” for clearly setting boundaries after her entire family felt uncomfortable….thats so weird man. it could all be so simple 😭
while i agree with you that she should’ve taken accountability when the player and his wife made known that they felt uncomfortable, i don’t think that the kraken just “went along” with it. they actively enabled and encouraged this behavior because they profited from it and that is also very problematic
@@hannah-wd9qn and i never said that fact wasn’t problematic, however, the people who were at the forefront of this issue have millions of followers within the booktok community and to use the fact that the team was going along with it as the excuse for their behavior is gross. both things can be true.
i think enemies-to-lovers is also popular because it's comforting to see two people falling in love even after seeing and experiencing the worst of one another, because that's something many people want for themselves
There was also that one writer who literally wrote a fanfic book about Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce, barely changing the names. That was insane. Thankfully, it was removed from everywhere.
Major Swiftie here, and that's so disgusting. I can somewhat understand people writing fanfic about fictional characters but real people is just repulsive.
@@evychittenden13 People have been writing RPS since forever but it MUST be contained in fanfic-only spaces only. They're not supposed to be visible to anyone who is not intentionally searching for them. I remember the After book release that was so disgusting, the boys knew about it and also kept getting asked in interviews about it ew
The thing that irked me the most about that book is that she decided to publish it. Like girl, what?? You know there is literally an ENTIRE SECTION for taylor swift on ao3 right?? you could’ve just wrote fanfiction and upload it to ao3. why did you choose to publish what is essentially a fanfic when you know people are going to be pressed about that? just give into the fact that you wrote a fanfic and upload it on a fanfic website. don’t try and make it seem like a real story you made up totally from scratch with totally fictional characters. Just say it’s fanfiction and move on 😞
@@saturnthemirrorballshe wanted the money from people buying it. Does anyone make money from AO3/wattpad/traditional fanfic sites? I legit don’t know; is there a culture of patreon or that “buy me a coffee”/ko-fi whatever attached to fanfic or is considered tacky to ask for donations?
Booktok drama is always so fascinating to me. People will say the most unhinged things and then get mad when they are reminded that the things they do and say one post about online actually have consequences in the real world
That Uber scene in Icebreaker was so cringey omg! And although Nathan says he cares about consent, what about the consent of the other ppl in the Uber? Because it's clear afterwards that they saw everything. I was honestly disturbed by that.
Yeah, it was super weird how they just fooled around with everyone in the uber with them. And the author just expects us to believe they were too drunk to notice. 1) No one is too drunk to notice. 2) What about the poor uber driver. Don't they get any respect?
I read Icebreaker because it was all over tiktok and I was like fine. I had to know. I was actually surprised that the book wasn't just all romance and spice and actually had plot and character development. I was not expecting it to talk about how hard it can be to have toxic people in your life and how hard it can be to no longer have those people in your life. Anastasia's ex-friend and Nate's family weren't just added to make either of them angsty and were actually treated with care and weight and I thought that was very surprising and interesting. (This isn't to say there aren't things like I wasn't rolling my eyes over, but still.) I also like how Hannah Grace also writes consent into her books. Sure, it seems a little out of place and too good to be true, but I would rather read about someone pausing and asking for consent than books to be promoting the opposite. Be the change you wish to see and all that.
The thing with having am ensemble cast is because Hannah Grace is writing books about some of the other characters and their relationships (2. books is Wildfire came out in October and a third book comes out this summer) and maybe bc icebreaker is the first book in this interconnected standalone series we get introduced to everyone who could possibly get a book
every time jack speaks im so in awe of how well spoken and thoughtful he is. i kinda wanna say intelligent, but it doesn't feel like it fully covers how clever he feels when he speaks. im always realizing new things and perspectives and still it feels like listening to a friend because he doesn't speak like a dry besserwisser, he's on my level and so fucking funny, and it's just ALWAYS so enlightening. seeing the title of this video, you wouldn't expect anything big, but he always manages to speak delicately and intelligently about real issues and interesting quirks without ever shaming any group of people or interest or anything. idk, im just so impressed by him, constantly. i truly aspire to be more like him.
There’s one Hockey book called Icebreaker by A.L. Graziadei about 2 hockey players that play in the Same team. This one was good because Hockey actually played an extremely important role. And it talks about important topics like mental health, family issues, sexuality etc. and there was not even one smut scene. The characters had depths and reasons to act the way they did. Therefore I can recommend it to everybody who wants to read a good hockey book
I think people are way too comfortable literally sexually harassing real life people in their quest to "have fun or let loose" its sickening, and especially so when the victims have stepped forward asking for it to stop!!
considering that the drama that just happened with romance booktok and the 16 year old boy( a literal child) i dont think the romance / dark romance subgenre will ever really not have their reputation completely ruined. its like jack said though, as SOON as someone says they are uncomfortable the person(s) responsible need to take accountability and then stop what they are doing. when all this hockey stuff happened i just couldn't believe people were going to the games and actually yelling things like crack my back & not recognizing how that could make someone feel. especially women- as a young woman myself ive been catcalled & made uncomfortable by men in my life more times than i can count. i cant fathom turning around and doing that to another human
I am all for face claiming and using celebrities, etc. in order to make a physical comparison to what I see in my head as a reader. But I had no idea other people were taking it this far ! A great video essay on this topic Jack
So it's actually just erotica? If the sex starts before your 30% into the book then it's erotica and I think people need to be honest about that. Otherwise you can have romance/smut that takes like 70% of the way to get through you get that a lot with Ali Hazelwood, but it's not terribly vile.
As a writer, I started off as a fanfic writer (smut shorts, respectively) but as I got more progressively into my own real books with storylines that were more than 5000 words long I realized that using real people for it is not only dangerous and sometimes fetishizing but also limiting as hell
i understand the importance of not sex shaming but i’m almost concerned for some the people who become obsessed with these types of stories and people who use this genre as a form of escapism. I find that some of these stories can be quite problematic and offer delusion when it comes to their perception of sex and men in general. going as far as sexual harassment and assault
It's the same thing with people who become hyper-obsessed with porn. This is still porn with a story around it. People really need to not get too caught up in their fantasy worlds it can be hard to escape it.
You're so right. I hate how most "romance" books are just smut. No cute moments where we really get to see these two individuals, AS two individuals instead of just two bodies that will be used to satisfy the reader's lust. I'm all for a realm of sex positivity. Of course, as a woman, I can easily observe a world in which we are obsessively desired after, but not allowed to know it or use that to fulfill our own human, biological needs of sex. It's just that, when you write a 300+ page book that is really just porn, and where every other page is your characters being intimate, what are we really achieving, as writers? It just feels lazy to me. You can have your characters have fun, casual sex, just like you can have them have passion filled and very intimate sex, and STILL be aware of their humanity and their existence as people. These books like the ones used in reference in this video, are so stale when it comes to plot, and character quirks. They're just bodies. It's the same whenever a show or movie indulges in this type of writing. I don't know what I, as the reader or viewer, is supposed to obtain, learn, or be interested in when it's just two people who're horny for each other. Entertainment is subjective, but I like to view sources of media from a writing standpoint, and I always give them credit for knowing their audiences and feeding them based off of their preferences, but I just feel like limiting our readers and our feelings as readers when people inflate these books to such high lengths. I want to discuss the elements of storytelling with a fellow reader. I don't want to feel like we watched the same porno movie together.
Agreed. I enjoy a good sex scene in a book, but i can't imagine reading a whole 800 page book of JUST sex. I like the build up, the plot, the romance -- and that adds to the sex scene. I mean, I don't wanna shame people who get off on this or just want a good sex book for fun. But the way it's bleeding into real life and not just a little sneaky read before bed...feels odd?
@@rachel5399that’s why I love YA romance. people hate on it but there are so many good authors who really show their characters personalities and those moments I crave. I think one or two sex scenes in a book is fine but a whole book of just that?
For me personally, as an enjoyer of these types of books, it becomes a problem when the relationships have abusive tendencies. So many books have toxic and abusive partnerships and romanticize that (and not just in books but all media). I had borderline panic attacks from scenes that portrayed 🍇 as okay and romanticized it.
The way you are so respectful to different genres and people and authors in general is so wholesome. We need more people like you in the world. I seriously look up to you so much in that way. You are so funny but someone else is never the butt of the joke you have real humor and just altogether seem like such a lovely person. Thank you for everything you do for us🥲
love when u these types of videos - kinda like a video essay where u talk not just specifically about the books u read but also the broader context and the implications of them outside the pages
Why are these labelled romance. They’re erotica. Nothing wrong with erotica, but let’s be honest please. Like imagine if I recommended you a romance movie and then sent you a link to p*rn h*b
I mean, there is a plot, even if it’s not much of one. The presence of a lot of sex doesn’t make it erotica, although people throw the term around. Erotica is its own genre, where the “sex journey” is centered. Steamy/erotic romance, which is more what I think these are, contain romantic plots, even if there’s still lots of sex. Basically it comes down to, is the sex the plot, or does it complement the plot?
@@cakt1991 what you are describing is erotica, if it were plainly just sex it would be pornography. Nothing wrong with readinv erotica, nobody is saying that. But is different from one or two scenes in a romantic novel
i have never read a hockey romance book but i did read a fuffy fanfic where buffy was a figure skater and faith was a hockey player and it was pretty great lol
Booktok continues to try to make me feel like a giant at my height of 5'9 and size 8, which isn't all that tall or large, but these books alway seem to have characters that are so petite at like 5 foot and a size xxs... almost all the time the positive physical characteristics of the women in these books is how tiny their wrists are or how easily dwarfed they are by their respective partners- its so frustrating because I feel like the majority of FMCs are all the same.
I have zero interest in booktok, hockey, romance, hockey romance, or scandals related to any of it..... and yet here I am watching a 28 minute video on it all. I appreciate the fact that you take the genre seriously, try to understand what the appeal is even if it doesn't appeal to you, and how you review the books seriously despite the content. It makes your videos feel like you've got something to say rather than just pumping out "content" around whatever the latest scandal is. Keep up the good work, Jack. Doesn't matter what you cover, if you put as much thought into it as you have been doing, we'll watch it.
That woman's attitude of "It's just for entertainment" is pretty gross. She's loudly catcalling the guy in public, but I guess as long as she says "Oh I'm just joking lol", then it's perfectly fine. Guys would get cancelled in a second by doing the same thing. Possibly even charged with harassment.
100% this! Just imagine a guy making a tiktok like that woman, talking about her 3… you know. And then doing it in PUBLIC and in PERSON. That would absolutely not be okay if a man did this and straight up be a lawsuit. Of course there are grey areas but this situation was harrassment. UNHINGED. And then the author DEFENDING THIS?? I always think of that phrase from another tiktoker although different situation: „If it‘s not okay for a dad to do, it‘s not okay for a mum to do.“ And ever since then I see more and more situations where this applies.
I translated the Hungarian edition of Icebreaker - it came out here in late September in time for the annual book fair. The head of the publishing company told me they had to up the initial print amount because of the pre-orders, and the first print still sold out within a week. As for the book itself, I appreciated the way mental health and toxic friendships were treated, but it really could have used some extensive rewrites - it was originally a Wattpad story, as far as I know, that was later self-published, and you can tell by the structure that the author kinda winged it, and just went with the updates from week-to-week, or I don't know what her schedule was. It's not a book I would have chosen to read myself (I hate all kinds of spectator sports :'D), but I'm starting the next year with the translation of the next book in the series, and I'm genuinely curious what the author was able to do with an actual editor in tow.
I‘m sorry you translated THAT?? I don‘t know whether to be impressed or horrified, my condolecense either way 💀 Now I need to know the hungarian word for double penetration… Godspeed to you, friend…. You probably need it
I‘m sorry but you translated THAT?! I don‘t know whether to be impressed or horrified, my condolecence either way 💀 This must have been… an interesting experience. Now I need to know the hungarian words for some of these things…. Good luck with the next book of the series. I have a feeling you‘ll need it 💀
@@achilles7815 No condolences needed :) it really wasn't as bad as you'd think - despite its flaws, it's a well-intentioned book (well, they both are), and while sex scenes are an issue in themselves (Hungarian just doesn't have the right vocab, so translating them is always a chore), it wasn't even near the worst or most difficult thing I've ever translated. And the second book is already done - in fact, it was published this week.
I’m not on TikTok, so I had no idea that any of this happened omg. I’d seen a couple things relating to “being too into hockey players” but I didn’t know all of the details, so thanks for sharing. This was wild though! TikTok is crazy
One part of me is delighted that male bisexuality is normalized in these books; one part of me is appalled at the faceclaiming; one part of me is GOBSMACKED that 800pp of muttering murmuring grating gritting sells this well. Conflicted; I think most of us are against the i invasive intrusive bits, yet see the celebratory facets as okay, and there's no way to have one without the other because people are gonna be their nasty selves no matter what.
I think one thing I always struggle with is the way that the sex is written in these books. These characters are often teenagers and it’s bizarre to me that they have sex like pornstars. I know it’s dramatic and sex sells and it matters that it’s hot and steamy. But sometimes it just feels so unrealistic
I’ve found that they’re mostly junior/senior age college students. So still very unrealistic, but they are adults. But I know a lot of people get sick of college romances by the time they’re like 25 bc the characters just feel too young
I read those books and actually enjoy them for the same reason I watch bad movies...... they just hit in that weird extremely satisfying spot inside my head 😂😂
I mean this seems to me like it's just the same thing people do with face claiming actors for other books, or just for their actual roles, the difference, that made this seem like it was a different short of situation is that, like you said, they're not celebrities, they're usually not the center of attention in that way so it's easier to acknowledge when the line was crossed
As a chartered bus driver, I've taken many hockey teams to games and tournaments, and without a doubt, I can attest to the fact that girls/women love hockey players. The stands are filled with decked out and dolled up teenie boppers to full blown hottie moms all keeping tabs on their favorite future NHL prospect/husbands.
13:18 Jack thank you so much for commenting on how misogyny plays into things women like especially these books and how it can impact the perception of people reading them. I love what you said “if you don’t like them you don’t have to read them”. As a female who is constantly put down because of my interests it’s so refreshing to see that guys understand why it happens and see the problem. Thank you.
Thank you Jack for mentioning how the seattle krakens tiktok team acted as if they hadn't been feeding into the entire thing . I've seen multiple videos of people covering this issue mainly drama channels and most people just gloss over the fact that the media team invited her to the game, gave her the jersey, and made those booktok faceclaim related videos.
Me in the bookstore, totally unaware of booktok hype, looking at Icebreaker: Aw, this looks like a cute little romance story :) Me now: I am never buying a book again without checking GoodReads first 😂
I looked up Pucking Around on goodreads and one of the reviews it shows at the top is just "puck around and pind out" LMAO Kat on goodreads absolute top notch comedy
All jokes aside, this is actually really messed up. Thank you for informing us about this Jack! It's common sense not to sexualize someone and for the author herself to not take accountability for it, infuriates me.
If you want an actually good literary book that involves hockey, checkout Beartown by swedish author Frederik Backman. It's a trilogy. The two other books are Us Against You, and The Winners. It's an incredibly crafted and written story/world exploring rape culture. The fact that it was so impressively handled by the author who is a cis-man is so appreciated.
Look I’m not on TikTok and I’ve been reading hockey romance for years. The majority of them are garbage, but some are so so good. Pucking Around and Icebreaker are… garbage. I’m bummed the sub-sub-genre is getting a bad wrap 😂 edit to say: definitely the sudden fetishization via booktok of hockey (and hence the players) isn’t great 😅 great breakdown of the phenomenon!!
I believe that Pucking Around was original published on Kindle Unlimited. I love KU. However one critique is that authors are incentivized to make longer books. This often causing novels to have an outrageous number of pages.
Haha, while I get that it may traumatize some, trust me that not all are traumatized by that scene. Us romance lovers stan fictional steamy scenes, because we have a way to suspend our disbelief. We obviously would not condone many of these situations in real life, but in fiction, why not?!
@@dianaandthebookhunt Oh no, I get it! I'm a romance girly too, but I also read books that Jack reads. I read an okay amount of genres so I'm not a stranger to smutty books. I'm reading one right now funny enough.😅 But what I mean is that I just found that scene so disturbing cuz of setting. Like their friends were legit less than 2 feet away from them, including the cab driver who probably has a backway mirror and might have been privy to the whole thing. It's just time and place, you know.😂🥲
I totally get it! I have personal issues with some types of steamy scenes in dark romances for example, so I get it. It's all subjective & that's why there will always be people on both sides of the discussion. It's just important to approach the subject with as much respect as Jack is showing in this video 😊
I’ve only read icebreaker and never heard of pucking around, also wasn’t aware of the scandal, and now I’m sitting here jaw dropped, no words at all. 😮
Literally just watched your podcast with jordan where you briefly explained this and I needed more. When it finished, this video notif popped up and I HAD to drop everything and come here. As a consumer of hockey romance, this is fascinating to watch. 💓💓💓
How they let it get that far is insane. That is beyond embarrassing for the literary community… for the hockey community… and simply for mankind in general.
as a queer person in a sports fandom who has read way too many fanfics - the appeal of sports + romance to me is always queer teammate relationships! so I think I'd hate this type of 'teeny tiny girl' and 'big huge guy' thing so much 😂
the best hockey romance books i've ever read is the game changers series. they're INSANE & all interconnected but about different people every book, so there's so much world building
I super appreciate the analysis of the smut genre bc so many of my male coworkers just don't understand it, its not just sex, its a plot with a developed female protagonist.
i play hockey and my friend lent me icebreaker and i read the first half of it completely grossed out. at least in the first half there’s not that much about hockey or figure skating or anything it’s pretty much just straight smut and them doing weird stuff like fucking in an uber that also has all of their friends in it, and the dude drawing a map of the g spot or smth i don’t remember
I can assure that icebreaker literally never talks about hockey. The only way hockey plays into the book really is by bringing in the male main characters friends who are his entire hockey team, and it cause the two main characters to meet. I've read the book and I literally don't even know what position Nate plays because they never even talk about it. Him playing hockey doesn't really contribute much to the plot.
Good point about avoiding, "said". From the "Turkey City Lexicon" (ed. Lewis Shiner): “Said” Bookism An artificial verb used to avoid the word “said.” “Said” is one of the few invisible words in the English language and is almost impossible to overuse. It is much less distracting than “he retorted,” “she inquired,” “he ejaculated,” and other oddities.
as a girl hockey player… i find it SO WEIRD how hockey guys are so sexualized. and not even gonna lie i did love icebreaker, but looking at all the booktok hockey drama it’s just so disgusting. and it makes me feel so weird even tho i’m not a hockey guy. as one who has been around them my whole life it’s just gross 😭
Absolutely this! I literally screamed in shock when they actually invited that crazy woman to a game. I would have been terrified! TERRIFIED! Imagine a hockey team doing this with reversed genders?? Inviting an obsessed, down bad to literal hell, mal fan to a woman‘s hockey game?! Unhinged! I hope you stay safe, babe 😭
Thank you for explaining this to me! I have thought about where this explosion of _"hockey-smutt"_ came from, and its appeal, but I'm way too uninterested in the extremely narrow genre to actually read the books for myself - so truly, thank you! This was a *very* good video, and you did a great job in explaining this phenomena. And, I gotta say; Poor Wennberg, he's Swedish like me. And I know for certain that us Swedes _(generally)_ do not appreciate that kind of MASSIVE attention, especially when it's unwanted attention. Though in this case, I'm pretty sure that nobody in the world would like the kind of attention he and his wife got. Completely unwarranted and extremely disgusting behaviour.
since i am not a part of the tiktok- therefore, booktok as well- community, i want to thank you for doing god's work- not only in this video, but also in the rest of them i have been watching for years. the fact that you did actual academic research on hockey erotica is very much appreciated, haha. also, jokes aside, the fact that you always are kind despite the issue addressed each time is really wonderful. anyway! i had no idea of this (")genre(") of books before the video, so thanks for informing us, haha.
For me, as a woman who likes the occasional hockey romance, the appeal is that they're hot and the sport is dangerous; hockey players are like knights of the modern world lmao. And in a world where 'bros before hoes' is standard, getting to experience total devotion from a sport-focussed guy through fiction is exciting. It's likely the Elle Kennedy Off-campus series that made hockey players the leading sports romance characters, as her books were addictive. They set the standard for that genre and created an ideal sporty male protagonist.
hearing you go on a small rant about how authors need to start using different synonyms for blue eyes besides "ocean eyes" was kinda weirdly relaxing and relatable. "let it go, hannah"
Saw you reading these on Goodreads and was WAITING for this video
i live for this comment
HALEYY
haley poping up here, my worlds are colliding
I NEED this collab
omg haley i didnt know u watch jack too!!! my fav booktuber watches my other fav booktubers vids
This situation definitely got so much worse because the Seattle Kraken supported this terrible behavior. Can't imagine how stressed out Alex would have been that his own employers and management were essentially not only giving the green light but also more opportunities for these young women to sexually harass and humiliate him in public. Props to his wife for stepping up and publicly calling out how disrespectful and damaging this behaviour is in order to protect her husband and family which is what finally brought everything to light and made it stop.
After the whole controversy I kept wondering how the stress would affect the team. I think it’s interesting that the Kraken made the playoffs last season, but this season they are bottom 3 in their conference, and bottom in the rankings overall for the league.
I wonder what that girls mother/father/guardian thinks....like omg can you imagine if the child you raised subjected another human to that, spoke that way, treated that way to another person? It's staggering. The idea that the management was like ya, let's treat our players like sex idols, can't see anything wrong with that, like what. Tell us you're new to the NHL without telling us you're new to the NHL *eyeroll*
@@lesdeuxtigresjust wanna say... dont think the booktok drama is why we arent doing well this season 😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅
@@lesdeuxtigresit’s hard to say, because these things change every season for so many reasons.
But I could see that having an influence
@@stschubsI mean, I almost hope they don’t know how to use the internet, cause yeah, that’s just embarassing
i thought we peaked with reviewing jane eyre laid bare but now we’re talking about hockey smut and i am HERE FOR IT
jane eyre laid bare is such a core moment of this channel i am HERE for it also
Fr that damn title haunts me at least once a month. I can't ever take the original book seriously again 😂
@@marziahadi7156 “the classic novel with an erotic twist” 💀
@kabina7994 trueee! i didn't even like the original Jane Eyre but that abomination made me curious af
Is your username the reference that I think it is?
Gosh, I’m so tired of that “tiny woman, big strong dude” romance trope. Can someone write a romance novel between a girl who is a big muscular pro wrestler and a lanky, skinny short king who likes chess or something? I’d read that
There are definitely books for other body types. Olivia Dade is known for her fat rep, and released a book last year with two fat leads…she used the same designer as the one who did the cover for Icebreaker, but that artist really shows her range when working with Olivia Dade!
But funny you mentioned chess players, because Ali Hazelwood wrote a chess player romance, and I’m 90% sure he’s still a giant, and she’s still tiny. It is YA though, so maybe it will be less sexual?
I’ve got the perfect book for you! His Secret Illuminations by Scarlett Gale is perfect for this. I absolutely loved it and its sequel
There is actually a k-drama called weightlifting fairy kim bok-joo
There's a book called night shift where the girl is 5"11 and the guy was 6 sth
@@wouldntyouliketoknow7057 I just finished watching it and although I love it, you could tell that the min character was shown as still being relatively skinny compared to her teammates.
The fact that you're making an academic discussion about hockey smut is hilarious to me and I'm so here for it 😂
Honestly I'd love to take this entire phenom into a sociology course.
Jack reprimanding himself for saying 'girthy' is literally hilarious.
that was the exact moment i paused to check the comments lmao
I'm absolutely dying at this. I need more guys to review smut.
And yet "balls deep" just sailed right on by...
Booktok is such a scary place like hyping up okay-ish hockey smut books is one thing but taking real life people and making them into this fictional version of what you have in your brain is another. it’s so beyond weird that these days rpf has become so popular that people don’t feel any type of shame coming up to and harassing these people
i think the thing is is that it's poorly disguised rpf, but not actually claimed as it. hockey rpf has gone from niche online spaces where people write relatively privately to published books that blatantly write about real players but pretend they don't (some of them are pretty undeniable haha) and then people openly discuss them on a much more mainstream platform
Which is so wild bc in fanfic communities we’re finally seeing a true crackdown on Rpf and hatred of if the past few years. Like somehow on Ao3 in the actual fandom space that is viewed as the poster child for these things ppl hate it but it’s reached weird booktok shit and fanfic fandom space is getting blamed again lmao
I mean the problem with RPF is when it actually reaches the real world. It's all fine and good as long as everybody understands that the fourth wall needs to be preserved (ie understand difference between reality and fantasy and not try to mix them)
@@Louisa-Sophie is it? IS IT? 🤍
@@Louisa-Sophie No, RPF is always wrong. Part of its existence is literally doing just that, mixing reality and pretend. These are REAL people. It’s in the name. I’m not harping on you when I mention this, but even saying something like “fourth wall” here, is dangerous. Fourth wall is about fictional media. These people are not fictional, so it doesn’t matter if the places they’re written in are pretend. They’re real people, and headcanoning and writing about real people is actively bad, even just in the sense that the people who are being written about have spoken about disliking it. It’s about autonomy and privacy. /gen /nm
18:59 whenever book authors write ‘growl’ as an alternative all I can think about is the person making the tiniest bark that sounds like a chihuahua begging for food 😭
Hahahaha I don’t know why but I find the growling hot in books, but I can’t ever imagine taking it seriously in real life 😅
IKR omg what the heck are we supposed to imagine for that, I just self-insert another word, like writing has gotten so bad authors can't even pick a word other than 'GROWL' out of all the words
Same
YES and also who tf has ever growled/had a partner growl during actual sex? XD
@@LilyEvans1996 Werewolves... If I read the word 'growl' I am associating it with werewolves and since I prefer fluffly romance part like cuddling and rubbing face/cheeks to scent SO, I read a lot werewolf fanfiction(mostly Teen Wolf). Growl=werewolves= hot
booktok's obsession with hockey players should be studied
i find it creepy in a way idk
I find that if they want to thirst after fictional players then it's like weird but not offensive to other people. But when they take it to the extreme like alex's case it's so creepy. Like he didn't give you consent. Respect it. He's a human. He has real life problems and family.
No fr
It’s super creepy and even as a skater- the sexualization of our sport is wild and idk why people can’t just respect and not be so overly obsessed over people like that. Ik a lot of people who are bothered by it at my rink.
There really is no excuse for that even if there’s reasons behind it.
They do the same with motorcyclers as well
@@Huangraisy um yeah. There's this whole booktok X bikertok thing going on where they're posting thirst traps for each other. And there was this one 16 year old biker who wanted to be a part of the trend and gain a community of followers I guess, and he posted a video with a few teen dystopian novels like he hunger games, maze runner etc. then women in then comments section said that "those books aren't real books, you should instead read haunting Adeline" (context: haunting Adeline is a very toxic, problematic, abusive, romanticizing stalker romance, with various triggers and SA scenes in it) and I was like how dare you recommend these kinda books to a minor?!? But then some other women in e comments were also saying that "you need to learn from adult books and come back to me when you're a real man" and that's borderline grooming. A grown ass woman talking about a 16 year old boy who's posting for fun and clout in a sexual manner is pedophilia. But, the fact that no one in the comments section disagreed with those comments made me think that maybe they should stop normalising things like these. They don't get to make any minor (I'm a minor lmao sorry for the rant) feel unsafe in their safe space that they made to do something fun with no pressure from people. So yeah, I get you. You're point is valid.
Watching this video with NO prior knowledge of these books or the drama is very entertaining, but I feel incredibly sorry for that hockey player, those videos were so invasive
If Icebreaker has one hater, it’s me, and if Icebreaker has no haters that means I’m dead.
Omggg real😭
REALL US BRO
You're not the only one, friend ✌️😁👍
He took that book on the subway? W O W 💀 a kindle babe, a kindle.
I need a video essay on Colleen Hoover books now from Jack and I'D BE SO FULFILLED.
an eternal rant, PLEASE!
You mean the author were the parents are joking about their infant baby boy's big balls, and then the baby dies?
@@lelnel6242this is literally the best summary of colleen hoover “books”. literally her in one sentence
Idk, that means he has to go into it expecting to hate it and read several books all while scheming to shoot a diss video, targeting one particular author. That would feel very uncharacteristic of his content style.
I remember he gave 3 stars to 2 books of her i think and already said people are so harsh with her. She writes books in a way it's easy to read for some. So I don't think he will hate all her books just because some of her books were bad
Someone get Jack a Kindle so he can read smut freely 😂😂😂
Like, Jack this a book you read on KINDLE! Or hiding in your bedroom, never the subway!
He may die if he goes into Kindle Unlimited. There's things in there that no man should ever read.
@@lesdeuxtigres exactly like 😆😆 whenever he said he read on the train I was like NOOOO 🫢🫢🫢
@@kgal1298 true that. 😆😆 some things should stay hidden 😆😆
@@kgal1298my boyfriend got me a kindle for christmas one year, and he paid for a year of kindle unlimited. I found maybe three books on there worth downloading, the rest were just smut. 😂 literally thousands of books with guys on the cover, glistening and shirtless. 😂😂
yeah, some people on booktok truly scare me. lately some women there started to sexualize a 16 year old just because he was riding a motorcycle. they started to recommend adult books to him too. like imagine that this kid was reading YA books like Hunger Games and Divergent and they were recommending him Haunting Adeline which romanticizes r@pe and is problematic on so many levels. they need to touch some grass asap
I attend a book club that focuses exclusively on YA. It’s a mix of adults, teenagers and children and the amount of times the adult members and staff recommend smut or 18+ books really frustrates me. One member will talk openly about Pucking Around just after another talks about how much they enjoyed Wings of Fury. It’s not a safe space for those kids.
Reading the comments on his TikTok gives me the creeps!
I don't understand why they would do that especially if they know he's a minor like I fear some morals have gone out the window like that sounds a little predatory even if that's not the intention we are talking about a child he shouldn't have to deal with that
the way booktok worships Haunting Adeline needs to be studied because I just. dont. get. it.
WHAT?!?!!?
Went to the book store with friends recently and found Icebreaker under the KIDS section, so we immediately picked up the stack and put it on the appropriate shelf. Good gosh 😭
it’s wild to me how cutesy the covers of booktok smut are, it’s concerning how often I see them put in the YA section haha
Honestly, I’m living for this 30 minute video essay on viral hockey smut, I couldn’t think of anything better to watch rn
Seattle Kraken enabling the sexual harassment of one of their players provides a really interesting case study into the commodification of the body in sport. Usually, athletes’ bodies are commodified so the team can, understandably, compete and make money in the sport they exist within, however, Alex’s own team allowed his body to become a double source of income as they leaned into him being used as a source of desire. They effectively participated in the removal of Alex’s autonomy for money.
i’m a huge fan of hockey romances and have thirsted over my fair share of male leads, so I totally understand fans of this genre being thirsty for these fictional hockey men. the problem is when it bleeds into real life. you can sexualize fictional characters, not real people especially when they deadass have SPOUSES 💀💀💀 the seattle kraken situation just gives me the ick
agreed
they are not romance they are erotica , like saying p0rn is romance
And you can even have crushes on them irl, cause that’s always been a thing, people having a celebrity crush or whatever, but keep that shit off the internet.
I’m not on TikTok, but it seems like a lot of the content has become- videos that should have never been made.
I always prefer the phrasing “rivals to lovers” to “enemies to lovers” because having the two love interests be rivals says to me that there actually is a reason for the shared dislike for each other. Two people competing for the same thing. I don’t love this genre either, but if it has to be anything, I very much prefer the rivals dynamic.
i agree rivals to lovers is such a better term for it. i feel like rivals to lovers implies that both people respected each other enough to see each other as a threat. you can't be threatened by someone unless you admit to yourself that they are as skilled as you. this being the basis for a romance shows that both people will come into the relationship with pre established respect and admiration for one another that i think can be missing from a lot of other tropes. it's still really common for women in romance novels to be looked down on by the love interest
I believe enemies to lover only work in fantasy books
I feel like Beach Read was a great example of this!
Enemies to lovers should be "they're literally trying to kill each other, but the line between love and hate is very thin".
i think it’s super weird that grown adults are still not understanding boundaries and consent. because the whole argument that oh “but the team was going along with it!!!!” means nothing once consent is taken back and boundaries are set. once someone says they’re uncomfortable with something, it should be very easy for you to say oh wow my bad i’ll stop doing that now!!!! but instead they all decided to get defensive. and i understand why said booktoker felt scapegoated, but unfortunately for her, she WAS one of the most (if not the most) vocal. and then to call the wife a “bitch” for clearly setting boundaries after her entire family felt uncomfortable….thats so weird man. it could all be so simple 😭
while i agree with you that she should’ve taken accountability when the player and his wife made known that they felt uncomfortable, i don’t think that the kraken just “went along” with it. they actively enabled and encouraged this behavior because they profited from it and that is also very problematic
@@hannah-wd9qn and i never said that fact wasn’t problematic, however, the people who were at the forefront of this issue have millions of followers within the booktok community and to use the fact that the team was going along with it as the excuse for their behavior is gross. both things can be true.
i think enemies-to-lovers is also popular because it's comforting to see two people falling in love even after seeing and experiencing the worst of one another, because that's something many people want for themselves
There was also that one writer who literally wrote a fanfic book about Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce, barely changing the names. That was insane. Thankfully, it was removed from everywhere.
Major Swiftie here, and that's so disgusting. I can somewhat understand people writing fanfic about fictional characters but real people is just repulsive.
@@evychittenden13 People have been writing RPS since forever but it MUST be contained in fanfic-only spaces only. They're not supposed to be visible to anyone who is not intentionally searching for them. I remember the After book release that was so disgusting, the boys knew about it and also kept getting asked in interviews about it ew
@@evychittenden13 What’s the issue with writing fanfic about fictional stuff since you say “somewhat”?
The thing that irked me the most about that book is that she decided to publish it. Like girl, what?? You know there is literally an ENTIRE SECTION for taylor swift on ao3 right?? you could’ve just wrote fanfiction and upload it to ao3. why did you choose to publish what is essentially a fanfic when you know people are going to be pressed about that? just give into the fact that you wrote a fanfic and upload it on a fanfic website. don’t try and make it seem like a real story you made up totally from scratch with totally fictional characters. Just say it’s fanfiction and move on 😞
@@saturnthemirrorballshe wanted the money from people buying it. Does anyone make money from AO3/wattpad/traditional fanfic sites? I legit don’t know; is there a culture of patreon or that “buy me a coffee”/ko-fi whatever attached to fanfic or is considered tacky to ask for donations?
Booktok drama is always so fascinating to me. People will say the most unhinged things and then get mad when they are reminded that the things they do and say one post about online actually have consequences in the real world
i think it’s very strange how they began to sexualize a real person, i can’t imagine how uncomfortable he must have felt to be talked about like that
That Uber scene in Icebreaker was so cringey omg! And although Nathan says he cares about consent, what about the consent of the other ppl in the Uber? Because it's clear afterwards that they saw everything. I was honestly disturbed by that.
Me too!
Yeah, it was super weird how they just fooled around with everyone in the uber with them. And the author just expects us to believe they were too drunk to notice. 1) No one is too drunk to notice. 2) What about the poor uber driver. Don't they get any respect?
I read Icebreaker because it was all over tiktok and I was like fine. I had to know. I was actually surprised that the book wasn't just all romance and spice and actually had plot and character development. I was not expecting it to talk about how hard it can be to have toxic people in your life and how hard it can be to no longer have those people in your life. Anastasia's ex-friend and Nate's family weren't just added to make either of them angsty and were actually treated with care and weight and I thought that was very surprising and interesting. (This isn't to say there aren't things like I wasn't rolling my eyes over, but still.)
I also like how Hannah Grace also writes consent into her books. Sure, it seems a little out of place and too good to be true, but I would rather read about someone pausing and asking for consent than books to be promoting the opposite. Be the change you wish to see and all that.
The thing with having am ensemble cast is because Hannah Grace is writing books about some of the other characters and their relationships (2. books is Wildfire came out in October and a third book comes out this summer) and maybe bc icebreaker is the first book in this interconnected standalone series we get introduced to everyone who could possibly get a book
every time jack speaks im so in awe of how well spoken and thoughtful he is. i kinda wanna say intelligent, but it doesn't feel like it fully covers how clever he feels when he speaks. im always realizing new things and perspectives and still it feels like listening to a friend because he doesn't speak like a dry besserwisser, he's on my level and so fucking funny, and it's just ALWAYS so enlightening. seeing the title of this video, you wouldn't expect anything big, but he always manages to speak delicately and intelligently about real issues and interesting quirks without ever shaming any group of people or interest or anything. idk, im just so impressed by him, constantly. i truly aspire to be more like him.
He went to Durham its right behind Oxbridge for literature degree
There’s one Hockey book called Icebreaker by A.L. Graziadei about 2 hockey players that play in the Same team. This one was good because Hockey actually played an extremely important role. And it talks about important topics like mental health, family issues, sexuality etc. and there was not even one smut scene. The characters had depths and reasons to act the way they did. Therefore I can recommend it to everybody who wants to read a good hockey book
I think people are way too comfortable literally sexually harassing real life people in their quest to "have fun or let loose" its sickening, and especially so when the victims have stepped forward asking for it to stop!!
considering that the drama that just happened with romance booktok and the 16 year old boy( a literal child) i dont think the romance / dark romance subgenre will ever really not have their reputation completely ruined. its like jack said though, as SOON as someone says they are uncomfortable the person(s) responsible need to take accountability and then stop what they are doing. when all this hockey stuff happened i just couldn't believe people were going to the games and actually yelling things like crack my back & not recognizing how that could make someone feel. especially women- as a young woman myself ive been catcalled & made uncomfortable by men in my life more times than i can count. i cant fathom turning around and doing that to another human
" they are sooo tiny tiny, you can put them in your pocket" got me laughing so hard
I am all for face claiming and using celebrities, etc. in order to make a physical comparison to what I see in my head as a reader. But I had no idea other people were taking it this far ! A great video essay on this topic Jack
not hockey books, romance books and spicy books literally being the three horsemen of the apocalypse 😭
booktuber lexi (aka newlynova) described that icebreaker’s plot was set up like episodes of a sitcom lmao
Reading another comment about it originally coming from wattpad, this makes a lot of sense now
I’m writing a book like a sitcom rn and it’s interesting
ice-breaker is basically 90% smut
I’m halfway through it and literally every page has at least one sex reference if smut isn’t occurring 😭
So it's actually just erotica? If the sex starts before your 30% into the book then it's erotica and I think people need to be honest about that. Otherwise you can have romance/smut that takes like 70% of the way to get through you get that a lot with Ali Hazelwood, but it's not terribly vile.
it's P*rn with plot filler
@@kgal1298it started on page 70 bro
As a writer, I started off as a fanfic writer (smut shorts, respectively) but as I got more progressively into my own real books with storylines that were more than 5000 words long I realized that using real people for it is not only dangerous and sometimes fetishizing but also limiting as hell
It's the dedication for me. Can never be wrong with a 30 min hockey smut review.
i understand the importance of not sex shaming but i’m almost concerned for some the people who become obsessed with these types of stories and people who use this genre as a form of escapism. I find that some of these stories can be quite problematic and offer delusion when it comes to their perception of sex and men in general. going as far as sexual harassment and assault
It's the same thing with people who become hyper-obsessed with porn. This is still porn with a story around it. People really need to not get too caught up in their fantasy worlds it can be hard to escape it.
You're so right. I hate how most "romance" books are just smut. No cute moments where we really get to see these two individuals, AS two individuals instead of just two bodies that will be used to satisfy the reader's lust. I'm all for a realm of sex positivity. Of course, as a woman, I can easily observe a world in which we are obsessively desired after, but not allowed to know it or use that to fulfill our own human, biological needs of sex. It's just that, when you write a 300+ page book that is really just porn, and where every other page is your characters being intimate, what are we really achieving, as writers? It just feels lazy to me. You can have your characters have fun, casual sex, just like you can have them have passion filled and very intimate sex, and STILL be aware of their humanity and their existence as people. These books like the ones used in reference in this video, are so stale when it comes to plot, and character quirks. They're just bodies. It's the same whenever a show or movie indulges in this type of writing. I don't know what I, as the reader or viewer, is supposed to obtain, learn, or be interested in when it's just two people who're horny for each other. Entertainment is subjective, but I like to view sources of media from a writing standpoint, and I always give them credit for knowing their audiences and feeding them based off of their preferences, but I just feel like limiting our readers and our feelings as readers when people inflate these books to such high lengths. I want to discuss the elements of storytelling with a fellow reader. I don't want to feel like we watched the same porno movie together.
Agreed. I enjoy a good sex scene in a book, but i can't imagine reading a whole 800 page book of JUST sex. I like the build up, the plot, the romance -- and that adds to the sex scene. I mean, I don't wanna shame people who get off on this or just want a good sex book for fun. But the way it's bleeding into real life and not just a little sneaky read before bed...feels odd?
@@rachel5399that’s why I love YA romance. people hate on it but there are so many good authors who really show their characters personalities and those moments I crave. I think one or two sex scenes in a book is fine but a whole book of just that?
For me personally, as an enjoyer of these types of books, it becomes a problem when the relationships have abusive tendencies. So many books have toxic and abusive partnerships and romanticize that (and not just in books but all media). I had borderline panic attacks from scenes that portrayed 🍇 as okay and romanticized it.
I was shocked as soon as you mentioned the wife, out of all hockey players to sexualise, WHY choose a MARRIED man??
Right! He looked young in the first pic, so I kind of just assumed he was young and unmarried! But to do that to a married man with children is crazy
Adam Driver: "First time?"
The way you are so respectful to different genres and people and authors in general is so wholesome. We need more people like you in the world. I seriously look up to you so much in that way. You are so funny but someone else is never the butt of the joke you have real humor and just altogether seem like such a lovely person. Thank you for everything you do for us🥲
love when u these types of videos - kinda like a video essay where u talk not just specifically about the books u read but also the broader context and the implications of them outside the pages
Why are these labelled romance. They’re erotica. Nothing wrong with erotica, but let’s be honest please. Like imagine if I recommended you a romance movie and then sent you a link to p*rn h*b
HAHAHA that’s such a good metaphor for it lmao
erotica is a sub-genre of romance...
Agree is pure erotica not romance.
I mean, there is a plot, even if it’s not much of one. The presence of a lot of sex doesn’t make it erotica, although people throw the term around. Erotica is its own genre, where the “sex journey” is centered. Steamy/erotic romance, which is more what I think these are, contain romantic plots, even if there’s still lots of sex. Basically it comes down to, is the sex the plot, or does it complement the plot?
@@cakt1991 what you are describing is erotica, if it were plainly just sex it would be pornography. Nothing wrong with readinv erotica, nobody is saying that. But is different from one or two scenes in a romantic novel
Omg Jack is so productive I don't know what we did to deserve this many videos, but THANK YOUUU
i have never read a hockey romance book but i did read a fuffy fanfic where buffy was a figure skater and faith was a hockey player and it was pretty great lol
Imma need the title, immediately
@@bettyward8777i cant remember what it was called cause i read it at my colleges library but i think the title was a taylor swift song lol im sorry!!
Booktok continues to try to make me feel like a giant at my height of 5'9 and size 8, which isn't all that tall or large, but these books alway seem to have characters that are so petite at like 5 foot and a size xxs... almost all the time the positive physical characteristics of the women in these books is how tiny their wrists are or how easily dwarfed they are by their respective partners- its so frustrating because I feel like the majority of FMCs are all the same.
the growth of book content on the internet is crazy. i was into the og booktubers when they all had around 200k
I have zero interest in booktok, hockey, romance, hockey romance, or scandals related to any of it..... and yet here I am watching a 28 minute video on it all.
I appreciate the fact that you take the genre seriously, try to understand what the appeal is even if it doesn't appeal to you, and how you review the books seriously despite the content. It makes your videos feel like you've got something to say rather than just pumping out "content" around whatever the latest scandal is. Keep up the good work, Jack. Doesn't matter what you cover, if you put as much thought into it as you have been doing, we'll watch it.
That woman's attitude of "It's just for entertainment" is pretty gross. She's loudly catcalling the guy in public, but I guess as long as she says "Oh I'm just joking lol", then it's perfectly fine. Guys would get cancelled in a second by doing the same thing. Possibly even charged with harassment.
100% this! Just imagine a guy making a tiktok like that woman, talking about her 3… you know. And then doing it in PUBLIC and in PERSON. That would absolutely not be okay if a man did this and straight up be a lawsuit. Of course there are grey areas but this situation was harrassment. UNHINGED. And then the author DEFENDING THIS??
I always think of that phrase from another tiktoker although different situation: „If it‘s not okay for a dad to do, it‘s not okay for a mum to do.“ And ever since then I see more and more situations where this applies.
Was fully waiting for Jack to say, “This video is brought to you by the NHL.” 😂
I translated the Hungarian edition of Icebreaker - it came out here in late September in time for the annual book fair. The head of the publishing company told me they had to up the initial print amount because of the pre-orders, and the first print still sold out within a week. As for the book itself, I appreciated the way mental health and toxic friendships were treated, but it really could have used some extensive rewrites - it was originally a Wattpad story, as far as I know, that was later self-published, and you can tell by the structure that the author kinda winged it, and just went with the updates from week-to-week, or I don't know what her schedule was. It's not a book I would have chosen to read myself (I hate all kinds of spectator sports :'D), but I'm starting the next year with the translation of the next book in the series, and I'm genuinely curious what the author was able to do with an actual editor in tow.
I‘m sorry you translated THAT?? I don‘t know whether to be impressed or horrified, my condolecense either way 💀 Now I need to know the hungarian word for double penetration…
Godspeed to you, friend…. You probably need it
And of course it‘s coming from fucking (pun intended) wattpad
I‘m sorry but you translated THAT?! I don‘t know whether to be impressed or horrified, my condolecence either way 💀 This must have been… an interesting experience. Now I need to know the hungarian words for some of these things….
Good luck with the next book of the series. I have a feeling you‘ll need it 💀
@@achilles7815 No condolences needed :) it really wasn't as bad as you'd think - despite its flaws, it's a well-intentioned book (well, they both are), and while sex scenes are an issue in themselves (Hungarian just doesn't have the right vocab, so translating them is always a chore), it wasn't even near the worst or most difficult thing I've ever translated. And the second book is already done - in fact, it was published this week.
I’m not on TikTok, so I had no idea that any of this happened omg. I’d seen a couple things relating to “being too into hockey players” but I didn’t know all of the details, so thanks for sharing. This was wild though! TikTok is crazy
respectful KING!! thank you for saying theres a difference between not liking something and blatant misogyny!
One part of me is delighted that male bisexuality is normalized in these books; one part of me is appalled at the faceclaiming; one part of me is GOBSMACKED that 800pp of muttering murmuring grating gritting sells this well. Conflicted; I think most of us are against the i invasive intrusive bits, yet see the celebratory facets as okay, and there's no way to have one without the other because people are gonna be their nasty selves no matter what.
I think one thing I always struggle with is the way that the sex is written in these books. These characters are often teenagers and it’s bizarre to me that they have sex like pornstars. I know it’s dramatic and sex sells and it matters that it’s hot and steamy. But sometimes it just feels so unrealistic
I’ve found that they’re mostly junior/senior age college students. So still very unrealistic, but they are adults. But I know a lot of people get sick of college romances by the time they’re like 25 bc the characters just feel too young
We need more of these deep dives into drama and controversies of the book community. 😂😮
Yessss
I read those books and actually enjoy them for the same reason I watch bad movies...... they just hit in that weird extremely satisfying spot inside my head 😂😂
"this would kill a victorian child"
I mean this seems to me like it's just the same thing people do with face claiming actors for other books, or just for their actual roles, the difference, that made this seem like it was a different short of situation is that, like you said, they're not celebrities, they're usually not the center of attention in that way so it's easier to acknowledge when the line was crossed
As a chartered bus driver, I've taken many hockey teams to games and tournaments, and without a doubt, I can attest to the fact that girls/women love hockey players. The stands are filled with decked out and dolled up teenie boppers to full blown hottie moms all keeping tabs on their favorite future NHL prospect/husbands.
"Tolkein walked so that Emily Rath could crawl" is honestly such an underrated line
I’ve been so curious as to what this video would be after seeing your stories and worst books of the year video 😭
13:18 Jack thank you so much for commenting on how misogyny plays into things women like especially these books and how it can impact the perception of people reading them. I love what you said “if you don’t like them you don’t have to read them”. As a female who is constantly put down because of my interests it’s so refreshing to see that guys understand why it happens and see the problem. Thank you.
I do love how the first part of this video was actually analyzing why these books are popular, not just "lol these dames and their silly romances"
Why is this the funniest video I’ve ever seen bro I’m laugh crying and can’t stop help
Thank you Jack for mentioning how the seattle krakens tiktok team acted as if they hadn't been feeding into the entire thing . I've seen multiple videos of people covering this issue mainly drama channels and most people just gloss over the fact that the media team invited her to the game, gave her the jersey, and made those booktok faceclaim related videos.
never read icebreaker but as a figure skater some of us genuinely highly dislike hockey players for no reason at all 😭
Me in the bookstore, totally unaware of booktok hype, looking at Icebreaker: Aw, this looks like a cute little romance story :)
Me now: I am never buying a book again without checking GoodReads first 😂
'Let's not start saying the word girthy now.' That's hilarious jack
I looked up Pucking Around on goodreads and one of the reviews it shows at the top is just "puck around and pind out" LMAO Kat on goodreads absolute top notch comedy
All jokes aside, this is actually really messed up. Thank you for informing us about this Jack! It's common sense not to sexualize someone and for the author herself to not take accountability for it, infuriates me.
If you want an actually good literary book that involves hockey, checkout Beartown by swedish author Frederik Backman. It's a trilogy. The two other books are Us Against You, and The Winners. It's an incredibly crafted and written story/world exploring rape culture. The fact that it was so impressively handled by the author who is a cis-man is so appreciated.
“They are big and strong and they hit people” LOLOLOL dear god
Look I’m not on TikTok and I’ve been reading hockey romance for years. The majority of them are garbage, but some are so so good. Pucking Around and Icebreaker are… garbage. I’m bummed the sub-sub-genre is getting a bad wrap 😂 edit to say: definitely the sudden fetishization via booktok of hockey (and hence the players) isn’t great 😅 great breakdown of the phenomenon!!
Can u suggest some good ones
Could you recommend any of your favourites? I don't want to start with these two lol
Read „The Deal“//Off-Campus-Series by Ellen Kennedy 😉
I believe that Pucking Around was original published on Kindle Unlimited. I love KU. However one critique is that authors are incentivized to make longer books. This often causing novels to have an outrageous number of pages.
The fact that I knew EXACTLY what scene he was talking about in "Icebreaker" just goes to show that that Uber scene traumatized us all.😖
Haha, while I get that it may traumatize some, trust me that not all are traumatized by that scene. Us romance lovers stan fictional steamy scenes, because we have a way to suspend our disbelief. We obviously would not condone many of these situations in real life, but in fiction, why not?!
@@dianaandthebookhunt Oh no, I get it! I'm a romance girly too, but I also read books that Jack reads. I read an okay amount of genres so I'm not a stranger to smutty books. I'm reading one right now funny enough.😅 But what I mean is that I just found that scene so disturbing cuz of setting. Like their friends were legit less than 2 feet away from them, including the cab driver who probably has a backway mirror and might have been privy to the whole thing. It's just time and place, you know.😂🥲
I totally get it! I have personal issues with some types of steamy scenes in dark romances for example, so I get it. It's all subjective & that's why there will always be people on both sides of the discussion. It's just important to approach the subject with as much respect as Jack is showing in this video 😊
OMFG, thats the scene that made me stop reading it all together 😪
as a canadian who grew up going to school with hordes of hockey players i cannot understand what the draw of hockey romances could be 😭😅
reading Pucking Around on the subway is BRAVEEEE
I’ve only read icebreaker and never heard of pucking around, also wasn’t aware of the scandal, and now I’m sitting here jaw dropped, no words at all. 😮
Literally just watched your podcast with jordan where you briefly explained this and I needed more. When it finished, this video notif popped up and I HAD to drop everything and come here. As a consumer of hockey romance, this is fascinating to watch. 💓💓💓
How they let it get that far is insane. That is beyond embarrassing for the literary community… for the hockey community… and simply for mankind in general.
“Why is it always you three” KILLED me 😂😂😂😂
as a queer person in a sports fandom who has read way too many fanfics - the appeal of sports + romance to me is always queer teammate relationships! so I think I'd hate this type of 'teeny tiny girl' and 'big huge guy' thing so much 😂
Lord of the Rinks.....great wordplay!!!
Not him reading that smut out loud 😭😭😭😭😭
the best hockey romance books i've ever read is the game changers series. they're INSANE & all interconnected but about different people every book, so there's so much world building
I super appreciate the analysis of the smut genre bc so many of my male coworkers just don't understand it, its not just sex, its a plot with a developed female protagonist.
as someone who plays ice hockey I'm afraid of reading these books 📚
i play hockey and my friend lent me icebreaker and i read the first half of it completely grossed out. at least in the first half there’s not that much about hockey or figure skating or anything it’s pretty much just straight smut and them doing weird stuff like fucking in an uber that also has all of their friends in it, and the dude drawing a map of the g spot or smth i don’t remember
I can assure that icebreaker literally never talks about hockey. The only way hockey plays into the book really is by bringing in the male main characters friends who are his entire hockey team, and it cause the two main characters to meet. I've read the book and I literally don't even know what position Nate plays because they never even talk about it. Him playing hockey doesn't really contribute much to the plot.
Are you single?
@@taiyabazaheer9492 did you not watch the video, this is what he's talking about
as a hockey player and a figure skater at the same time, I don’t wanna be associated with these books
Good point about avoiding, "said". From the "Turkey City Lexicon" (ed. Lewis Shiner):
“Said” Bookism
An artificial verb used to avoid the word “said.” “Said” is one of the few invisible words in the English language and is almost impossible to overuse. It is much less distracting than “he retorted,” “she inquired,” “he ejaculated,” and other oddities.
as a girl hockey player… i find it SO WEIRD how hockey guys are so sexualized. and not even gonna lie i did love icebreaker, but looking at all the booktok hockey drama it’s just so disgusting. and it makes me feel so weird even tho i’m not a hockey guy. as one who has been around them my whole life it’s just gross 😭
Absolutely this! I literally screamed in shock when they actually invited that crazy woman to a game. I would have been terrified! TERRIFIED! Imagine a hockey team doing this with reversed genders?? Inviting an obsessed, down bad to literal hell, mal fan to a woman‘s hockey game?! Unhinged!
I hope you stay safe, babe 😭
Thank you for explaining this to me! I have thought about where this explosion of _"hockey-smutt"_ came from, and its appeal, but I'm way too uninterested in the extremely narrow genre to actually read the books for myself - so truly, thank you! This was a *very* good video, and you did a great job in explaining this phenomena.
And, I gotta say; Poor Wennberg, he's Swedish like me. And I know for certain that us Swedes _(generally)_ do not appreciate that kind of MASSIVE attention, especially when it's unwanted attention. Though in this case, I'm pretty sure that nobody in the world would like the kind of attention he and his wife got. Completely unwarranted and extremely disgusting behaviour.
Idk ‘bout everyone else but nothing gets me hot and ready like spaghetti being thrown at me and screaming “HELLO!” every two seconds.
I adore these video essays, Jack! Keep it going.
since i am not a part of the tiktok- therefore, booktok as well- community, i want to thank you for doing god's work- not only in this video, but also in the rest of them i have been watching for years. the fact that you did actual academic research on hockey erotica is very much appreciated, haha. also, jokes aside, the fact that you always are kind despite the issue addressed each time is really wonderful.
anyway! i had no idea of this (")genre(") of books before the video, so thanks for informing us, haha.
For me, as a woman who likes the occasional hockey romance, the appeal is that they're hot and the sport is dangerous; hockey players are like knights of the modern world lmao. And in a world where 'bros before hoes' is standard, getting to experience total devotion from a sport-focussed guy through fiction is exciting. It's likely the Elle Kennedy Off-campus series that made hockey players the leading sports romance characters, as her books were addictive. They set the standard for that genre and created an ideal sporty male protagonist.
I agree, it just got out of control. It's also happening with bikers on tiktok too and I'm like "guys these are real people"
The knights of the modern world thing is so accurate 🤧
I love your explanation!
Can you make a video like this about dark romance bc I need an essay about Haunting Adeline
Why can’t people leave the dark romance alone? Why. W H Y
@@notllikethat The mmc is a rapist and people keep defending it, why not just clown on this *one author*
hearing you go on a small rant about how authors need to start using different synonyms for blue eyes besides "ocean eyes" was kinda weirdly relaxing and relatable.
"let it go, hannah"
I am both ready for this video and not ready for the unhinged nature of TikTok