From my research on it, "affair" was used in the context of a sexual affair at that time. Here is one example: He did not often allude, in his conversations with Maria to her affair with her former lover but when he did he always assumed an apologetic tone for her conduct. - "The Red Barn, A Tale founded upon Fact", 1831, p. 465 (There are many more of these that I've located). So the adjectives "dirty, nasty, filthy" are in relation to what? And in the testimony given at Cowdery's trial, they claimed that Cowdery did call it an adultery scrape. It's obvious that Cowdery considered the affair adultery. I do not believe that Joseph confessed polygamy at the High Council, Brigham Young was there and he claimed that he did not learn about any polygamy in the church until he went to England, after 1838. There is no evidence that Smith admitted a sexual relationship with Fanny at the High Council trial, he was denying it. A history of the girl business can mean anything, even an explanation the doesn't include him having a relationship with her. Why did Flora Woodworth run off and marry Carlos Gove. She wasn't pregnant, but wanted to get away from Smith and so got married to someone else. She may have been so traumatized by Smith that she wanted to get married right away to a man who was not already married to put herself beyond his reach.
I read Brigham Young said that Joseph taught Oliver Cowdery the doctrine of polygamy (which was 1st revealed in 1831) and Oliver was for it. Oliver went ahead and found a woman for a plural wife, practicing polygamy without permission from Joseph to do so. Which was adultery. After that, Oliver was against polygamy. When Joseph married Fanny, with permission from the Lord, Oliver found out and opposed Joseph. Oliver wrote his letter, and accused Joseph of adultery, and Oliver was eventually ex'd. But it was Oliver that did unauthorized polygamy, not Joseph.
"I read Brigham Young said that Joseph taught Oliver Cowdery the doctrine of polygamy." Where did you read this? It sounds quite suspect to me. You might want to check out my interview with Brian Hales on this topic. Check out episodes 46 and 46. ruclips.net/p/PLLhI8GMw9sJ4a2TkGRwk0NSdi0eErtt4i
New viewer to your channel. As I am listening to Don Bradley's comments I was copying a quote out of "Cities that build the Bible" by Robert Cargill. "The Bible is powerful only when it is translated, interpreted (in a manner that seeks to discover what the author of the text was trying to communicate and not what it happens to mean to you personally 2,000 years later), considered and evaluated (not only to determine which claims are factual or historical, but to decide which ancient directives are morally defunct and ethically obsolete by our modern civil standards), and if you are a person of faith, LIVED. Without these actions -translating, interpreting, considering and evaluating, and enacting- the Bible is powerless. " I share this to encourage everyone to in their religious pursuits to translate- not from Hebrew to English, but from the page to their inner selves. To "write them on their heart." as is written in Hebrews 8:10. Words often have archaic meanings and what is understood today may not be what was meant- I doubt we were donning our gay apparel the past few days of the Christmas season, perhaps festive, not gay. God bless all.
To me, it is a distinction without a difference. Bradley thinks Fanny was pregnant, so even if scrape and/or affair doesn't necessarily refer to something sexual (think "Iran/Contra Affair" a government coverup which obviously isn't about sex at all), Don still thinks sex happened in this scrape between Joseph & Fanny. So, other than for the sake of accuracy, I don't really care which word was used. Sex happened if one believes Fanny was pregnant.
@@GospelTangents Thanks for your speedy reply and thanks for digging into so many different aspects of groups and historical events tied to the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. I'm trying to keep in mind to not judge too harshly lest I be judged.
Here is Ebenezer Robinson's report. I don't see anything about a "polygamous confession." That seems very speculative, but decide for yourselves: . . . George W. Harris testifies that one evening last fall [see November 7, 1837 FWR.] O. Cowdery was at his house together with Joseph Smith jr, and Thomas B. Marsh, when a conversation took place between Joseph Smith jr & O. Cowdery, when he seemed to insinuate that Joseph Smith jr was guilty of adultery, but when the question was put, if he (Joseph) had ever acknowledged to him that he was guilty of such a thing; when he [Oliver] answered No. . . . . . David W. Patten testifies, that he went to Oliver Cowdery to enquire of him if a certain story was true respecting J. Smith's committing adultery with a certain girl 1 , when he turned on his heel and insinuated as though he [Joseph] was guilty; he then went on and gave a history of some circumstances respecting the adultery scrape stating that no doubt it was true. Also said that Joseph told him, he had confessed to Emma, . . . . . . Thomas B. Marsh testifies that while in Kirtland last summer, David W. Patten asked Oliver Cowdery if he Joseph Smith jr had confessed to his wife that he was guilty of adultery with a certain girl, when Oliver Cowdery cocked up his eye very knowingly and hesitated to answer the question, saying he did not know as he was bound to answer the question yet conveyed the idea that it was true. Last fall after Oliver came to this place he heard a conversation take place between Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery when J. Smith asked him if he [Joseph] had ever confessed to him that he was guilty of adultery, when after a considerable winking &c. he said No. Joseph then asked him if he ever told him that he confessed to any body, when he answered No. Joseph Smith jr testifies that Oliver Cowdery had been his bosom friend, therefore he intrusted him with many things. He then gave a history respecting the girl business.
It seems that within an LDS context, as long as Joseph was practicing polygamy rather than having illicit sexual relationships outside of marriage, it is somehow (more?) justifiable. Keep in mind that at least from a legal standpoint, polygamy (or bigamy) was never legal where practiced by Mormons. It wasn't legal in Illinois or Utah. Regardless of how you frame or describe it, Joseph and others had illegal sexual relationships. In the case of Joseph, it appears that he was manipulative in his proposals to many young women and secretive towards Emma, often lying about his relationships. I will grant to the apologists that they are welcome to call it polygamy if they like, but this does not make the practice more moral or ethical in my opinion. Nor does it justify lying about the historical facts regarding these relationships as the church has often done in the past (esp. 1946-1980).
Some apologists (especially here) prefer the term plural marriage to polygamy. Personally I think it is a distinction without a difference, but I understand why they prefer the term plural marriage.
@@GospelTangents Here is a look at how the terms have evolved in terms of General conference usage. imgur.com/6OL9eFO Apologists are correct that after 1890 plural marriage is the preferred term for believers. However, this term was essentially unknown during the 1830s/1840s which was the period that this video addresses. These days, all terms related to plural marriage have essentially been dropped from General Conference addresses. "Celestial marriage" was synonymous with polygamy until about 1940, after which it was defined as monogamous temple marriage.
Such a lazy response! The only practical way to try to understand the past is to try to look at it from their perspective, certainly not possible to completely see it their way, but only looking at it from your own perspective will leave you far shorter, since we weren't there (and perspectives/memories/intentions etc. will even differ between people who were), I would expect any worthwhile analysis to piece together the context as best as possible, which yes, does require some brainwork
@@beefmaster4 You are the last one to talk about lazy. It took you 2 years to reply Whatever way you look at this, doesn't change the fact you are in denial. What doesn't need brain power, is making excuses for wickedness, which you seem well equipped to do. Shameful!
So are we to understand the facts are:: dirty nasty girl business with a teenage pregnancy that is ousted from house by Emma after Joseph is seen in barn with said girl and it wasn’t a sin because it was a legitimate polygamous marriage therefore not adulterous? Sincerely trying to put all this together:)
I won't disagree with anything that you have said. The only thing I want to say in defense of Bradley's argument about the word "affair" is that I have been reading Will Bagley's book this week, "Blood of the Prophets." Over and over again, they refer to the "Mountain Meadows affair." Clearly this shows that the word "Affair" didn't necessarily have a sexual connotation up to at least the year 1872 (which is where I am at in the book.) I will not defend polygamy, nor the Alger "scrape." But if you're asking what is the apologetic response, yes I would say that the apologetic response is that because it was a "legit" plural marriage, it therefore wasn't adultery. I don't buy this explanation, but yes that is the apologetic response.
I'm hoping I can interview him within the next month or so. If I can get him on, I'll shoot for a Sept release. It's hard to call a book about mass murder "good", but I know what you mean. It's a tough (but important) read.
I think NOT believing Brigham Young is a stretch. Him not remembering a name, not a stretch, but confusing an entire story, like Oliver Cowdery being guilty of adultery, for unauthorized Polygamy; which I find evident in Joseph’s December 1833 journal, saying there is evil in Oliver, after the now believed 1832 revelation on Plural Marriage, Brigham saying Oliver didn’t want to wait for the right time and going ahead and marrying HIMSELF to a second wife, having to divorce her...YES, he would be mad and throw Joseph’s own words back at him, when HE did start living Celestial Plural marriage... Of course he would be mad. My research and belief in Brigham, as although not perfect, but a good man and a prophet who doesn’t lie... There IS merit in his claims Oliver lived it before Joseph and got in HUGE trouble. Brigham Young knew Joseph well, his BROTHER Fineas was Oliver’s closet’s confidant in coming BACK to Church... He IS in his letters, letterbook!... forgetting a name (or a name being changed out of shame...) means little to debunk this claim my Brigham.
I spoke with Dr. Bill Smith, and he believes these rumors of Oliver practicing polygamy are not only exaggerated, but attempts to smear Oliver. See gospeltangents.com/2018/03/was-oliver-cowdery-polygamist/
Brigham Young told Schuyler Colfax in 1867 that polygamy was revealed to him (Brigham). Senator Julius Burrows of Michigan, the judge in the temple lot case, Samuel Clemons/Mark Twain and a number of dead SLC Mormons believed polygamy was Brigham Young's doing. Brigham Young lied plenty, revised Joseph Smith's journals, taught false doctrine, and got wealthy off the Saints. Some people lived in fear of him.
Like The Wood Scrape? Scrape indicates to brush up against. And that the other party is an initiator. A cause. At Mountain Meadows is was said "to Give them a good scrape....they brushed up against us... " So the scrape for for brushing up against harmless Mormons terrorized by really mean Armies. "Scrape" has an aggressive connotation. Fanny was not a scrape. And if she was the "aggressor" in this Sexual affair and Brushed up against JS , then JS should have not indulged himself. Use of "scrape" deflects blame.
In listening to this again this morning, I'm a bit flabbergasted by Bradley's claims. So much speculation and so many assumptions that can't be proven. Is this LDS scholarship? It seems he's torturing the info to conform to the idea that JS married Fanny Alger.
Exactly. People do the most insane mental gymnastics to justify Joseph Smith's adultery because for 99% of the people who believe the Book of Mormon is a real ancient record, Joseph has to be "more or less a good guy" or else the Book of Mormon can't be true. There is an alternative view point; that Joseph Smith fell away from God, gave into pride and lust and became a fallen prophet/seer. David Whitmer believed this and said that Cowdery and Harris died believing similarly. I don't think this viewpoint gets the attention it deserves
@@noctissky794 Regardless of ones personal beliefs , Oliver did NOT die believing Joseph a fallen prophet . He was baptized back into the Church by Orson Hyde ( also related to the Whitmer family and a polygamist ) Oliver was headed west to join the Saints in Utah when he died of Tb . He was completed devoted to the Church and said he wished “nothing more than to rejoin the only true Church as the lowest in station “ on his death bed .
Martin Harris like wise returned to be baptized and emigrated west . His testimony was equally strong at his death so I guess David didn’t know everything .
@@tomasina10 This, "He was completed devoted to the Church" is not entirely true. His daughter reports he was disappointed in the polygamy being practiced and letters between Oliver and David showed they were trying to figure out how to best serve their roles as three witnesses after Joseph's passing. The letters showed Oliver wanted to do something and he tried to do something. He did intend on joining up with the Saints in Utah but his family stated he did not approve of the polygamy and nothing he did showed he had a testimony that BY was a prophet, seer and revelator. And if David didn't know everything, what reason is there to think Oliver and Martin knew everything? Oliver's daughter reported that Oliver did not approve of the polygamy in Utah and David reported that Joseph repented of polygamy shortly before being killed. Someone is right and someone is wrong. You won't find the truth of what really went down between the three witnesses and Joseph and God in The Corporation of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints' reports. Oliver in 1846 on polygamy, writing to his sister, 8 years after his excommunication; "I can hardly think it possible that you have written us the truth-that though there may be individuals who are guilty of the iniquities spoken of,-yet no such practice can be preached or adhered to as a public doctrine. Such may do for the followers of Mohamet; it may have done some thousands of years ago; but no people professing to be governed by the pure and holy principles of the Lord Jesus, can hold up their heads before the world at this distance of time, and be guilty of such folly-such wrong-such abomination.” Oliver's law partner, W. Lang, that he worked with after leaving Joseph: "Cowdery never gave me a full history of the troubles of the Mormons in Missouri and Illinois but I am sure that the doctrine of polygamy was advocated by Smith and opposed by Cowdery." Lang on Oliver's reaction to Joseph's death; "[Joseph] Smith was killed while [Oliver] C[owdery] lived here. I well remember the effect upon his countenance when he read the news in my presence. He immediately took the paper over to his house to read to his wife. On his return to the office we had a long conversation on the subject, and I was surprised to hear him speak with so much kindness of a man that had wronged him as Smith had. It elevated him greatly in my already high esteem, and proved to me more than ever the nobility of his nature." Oliver was adamantly against polygamy. Oliver was either wrong and polygamy is fine, or Joseph was wrong and a fallen prophet, or Joseph was framed and was not an adulterer and Oliver was lying at worst or simply misunderstood the Fanny Alger situation. As it stands now, the truth is buried under mud. I can't find the comments from his daughter stating he denounced polygamy after being re-baptized, but they are out there. I used to think Joseph was a hero and I'm still grateful for his role in the translation of the Book of Mormon but there are too many voices of authority at odds with another (Emma's thoughts matter when they support the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, they don't matter when they are call into question Brigham, David Whitmer matters when he supports the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, he doesn't matter when he is critical of Joseph, Oliver matters when he testifies of the Book of Mormon and his second baptism, Olivers clear and total split from Joseph and the Fanny situation does not matter), lies (altered history, altered scripture), the whole polygamy situation and a complete absence of legitimate revelation following Joseph's death to allow me to really definitively know what exactly happened. I lean towards Joseph being a fallen prophet but I understand I'm operating on less than ideal information
@@noctissky794 My premise still stands …Oliver did NOT deny the BOM or Joseph . I have his his final letters ( written words ) prior to his death in 1850 testifying to the truth of The Church AND the BOM . The book they were published in was easy enough to find , No big secret . Phineas Young was at Oliver’s side when he died on assignment from Brigham. So if Oliver thought Joseph and Brigham were “fallen Prophets “ and No longer believed in the BOM why in the world would he have taken every penny he had to rejoin the Church and the Saints ? He was headed to Council Bluffs to help Elder Hyde ( my hubby’s grgrgrandfather ) when he took ill at the Whitmer home . Oliver makes No secret about his dislike of polygamy but that is a far cry from him disavowing Joseph and the BOM . Actually David recorded his last words in which he admonished his family to follow the Church and the BOM . Seems like a pretty devious and convoluted plan to say Oliver didn’t believe the Church or sustain Brigham but died trying to rejoin the Saints and used his final words to state that .
I thought Fanny Alger did give birth to a son in 1834-36. Can we get a clarification about Orison Smith? I suppose this claim comes from a self-perported descendant that was disproven by DNA evidence?
I am not familiar with the Orison Smith case. I interviewed Ugo Perego regarding the DNA tests he has done to rule Joseph Smith in or out, and all of the tests have ruled Joseph out as father. Here is the first DNA test with Ugo: ruclips.net/video/jnG4En_OBMo/видео.html
@@andreamesser4580 Yes . Many people want/wanted to be related to Joseph for a variety of reasons good and bad . It is similar to the T. Jefferson claims that have been disproven by DNA , most of those “relatives “ have quietly dropped their case after DNA . F. Brody was the source for many parentage claims with Joseph of which ALL have been proven false .
From my research on it, "affair" was used in the context of a sexual affair at that time. Here is one example:
He did not often allude, in his conversations with Maria to her affair with her former lover but when he did he always assumed an apologetic tone for her conduct.
- "The Red Barn, A Tale founded upon Fact", 1831, p. 465 (There are many more of these that I've located).
So the adjectives "dirty, nasty, filthy" are in relation to what? And in the testimony given at Cowdery's trial, they claimed that Cowdery did call it an adultery scrape. It's obvious that Cowdery considered the affair adultery. I do not believe that Joseph confessed polygamy at the High Council, Brigham Young was there and he claimed that he did not learn about any polygamy in the church until he went to England, after 1838. There is no evidence that Smith admitted a sexual relationship with Fanny at the High Council trial, he was denying it. A history of the girl business can mean anything, even an explanation the doesn't include him having a relationship with her. Why did Flora Woodworth run off and marry Carlos Gove. She wasn't pregnant, but wanted to get away from Smith and so got married to someone else. She may have been so traumatized by Smith that she wanted to get married right away to a man who was not already married to put herself beyond his reach.
I agree that whether the word "Affair" or "scrape" was used, it doesn't really matter to Oliver. The relationship was wrong in Oliver's eyes.
Thank you for standing up for the truth Oliver Cowdery gave us. Do you have any books or sources you recommend for reading to learn more about Oliver?
I read Brigham Young said that Joseph taught Oliver Cowdery the doctrine of polygamy (which was 1st revealed in 1831) and Oliver was for it. Oliver went ahead and found a woman for a plural wife, practicing polygamy without permission from Joseph to do so. Which was adultery. After that, Oliver was against polygamy.
When Joseph married Fanny, with permission from the Lord, Oliver found out and opposed Joseph. Oliver wrote his letter, and accused Joseph of adultery, and Oliver was eventually ex'd. But it was Oliver that did unauthorized polygamy, not Joseph.
"I read Brigham Young said that Joseph taught Oliver Cowdery the doctrine of polygamy." Where did you read this? It sounds quite suspect to me.
You might want to check out my interview with Brian Hales on this topic. Check out episodes 46 and 46. ruclips.net/p/PLLhI8GMw9sJ4a2TkGRwk0NSdi0eErtt4i
But... this is only half the story. In the same document, even the words, "Fanny Alger" look wrong, too!
What's the other half of the story?
New viewer to your channel. As I am listening to Don Bradley's comments I was copying a quote out of "Cities that build the Bible" by Robert Cargill. "The Bible is powerful only when it is translated, interpreted (in a manner that seeks to discover what the author of the text was trying to communicate and not what it happens to mean to you personally 2,000 years later), considered and evaluated (not only to determine which claims are factual or historical, but to decide which ancient directives are morally defunct and ethically obsolete by our modern civil standards), and if you are a person of faith, LIVED. Without these actions -translating, interpreting, considering and evaluating, and enacting- the Bible is powerless. "
I share this to encourage everyone to in their religious pursuits to translate- not from Hebrew to English, but from the page to their inner selves. To "write them on their heart." as is written in Hebrews 8:10. Words often have archaic meanings and what is understood today may not be what was meant- I doubt we were donning our gay apparel the past few days of the Christmas season, perhaps festive, not gay. God bless all.
Welcome!
Here is a playlist to all of my Don Bradley videos. ruclips.net/p/PLLhI8GMw9sJ6txopRLM7q3t_kjrzWWMAT
Hey Rick, do you have any plans to talk about the Council of Fifty?
That is a good suggestion. I don't have any plans yet but I will see what I can do.
As a non LDS, this seems like a real stretch. Happy New Year!
Just found this. Just as some families do today, they found someone in Indiana to marry Fanny.
Did I miss this in the video? Is Joseph the father of Fanny’s first baby?
Impossible to know.
If scrape did not relate to anything sexual as Bradley proposes, does Bradley propose any concept for what Joseph and Fanny's "scrape" was?
To me, it is a distinction without a difference. Bradley thinks Fanny was pregnant, so even if scrape and/or affair doesn't necessarily refer to something sexual (think "Iran/Contra Affair" a government coverup which obviously isn't about sex at all), Don still thinks sex happened in this scrape between Joseph & Fanny. So, other than for the sake of accuracy, I don't really care which word was used. Sex happened if one believes Fanny was pregnant.
@@GospelTangents Thanks for your speedy reply and thanks for digging into so many different aspects of groups and historical events tied to the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. I'm trying to keep in mind to not judge too harshly lest I be judged.
Here is Ebenezer Robinson's report. I don't see anything about a "polygamous confession." That seems very speculative, but decide for yourselves:
. . . George W. Harris testifies that one evening last fall [see November 7, 1837 FWR.] O. Cowdery was at his house together with Joseph Smith jr, and Thomas B. Marsh, when a conversation took place between Joseph Smith jr & O. Cowdery, when he seemed to insinuate that Joseph Smith jr was guilty of adultery, but when the question was put, if he (Joseph) had ever acknowledged to him that he was guilty of such a thing; when he [Oliver] answered No. . .
. . . David W. Patten testifies, that he went to Oliver Cowdery to enquire of him if a certain story was true respecting J. Smith's committing adultery with a certain girl 1 , when he turned on his heel and insinuated as though he [Joseph] was guilty; he then went on and gave a history of some circumstances respecting the adultery scrape stating that no doubt it was true. Also said that Joseph told him, he had confessed to Emma, . . .
. . . Thomas B. Marsh testifies that while in Kirtland last summer, David W. Patten asked Oliver Cowdery if he Joseph Smith jr had confessed to his wife that he was guilty of adultery with a certain girl, when Oliver Cowdery cocked up his eye very knowingly and hesitated to answer the question, saying he did not know as he was bound to answer the question yet conveyed the idea that it was true. Last fall after Oliver came to this place he heard a conversation take place between Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery when J. Smith asked him if he [Joseph] had ever confessed to him that he was guilty of adultery, when after a considerable winking &c. he said No. Joseph then asked him if he ever told him that he confessed to any body, when he answered No.
Joseph Smith jr testifies that Oliver Cowdery had been his bosom friend, therefore he intrusted him with many things. He then gave a history respecting the girl business.
You may be interested in this conversation: ruclips.net/video/RJwoRNCjKuc/видео.html
@@GospelTangents I watched the video link, but I not seeing the connection....
It seems that within an LDS context, as long as Joseph was practicing polygamy rather than having illicit sexual relationships outside of marriage, it is somehow (more?) justifiable. Keep in mind that at least from a legal standpoint, polygamy (or bigamy) was never legal where practiced by Mormons. It wasn't legal in Illinois or Utah. Regardless of how you frame or describe it, Joseph and others had illegal sexual relationships. In the case of Joseph, it appears that he was manipulative in his proposals to many young women and secretive towards Emma, often lying about his relationships. I will grant to the apologists that they are welcome to call it polygamy if they like, but this does not make the practice more moral or ethical in my opinion. Nor does it justify lying about the historical facts regarding these relationships as the church has often done in the past (esp. 1946-1980).
Some apologists (especially here) prefer the term plural marriage to polygamy. Personally I think it is a distinction without a difference, but I understand why they prefer the term plural marriage.
@@GospelTangents Here is a look at how the terms have evolved in terms of General conference usage. imgur.com/6OL9eFO Apologists are correct that after 1890 plural marriage is the preferred term for believers. However, this term was essentially unknown during the 1830s/1840s which was the period that this video addresses. These days, all terms related to plural marriage have essentially been dropped from General Conference addresses. "Celestial marriage" was synonymous with polygamy until about 1940, after which it was defined as monogamous temple marriage.
Such Mental gymnastics!
Such a lazy response! The only practical way to try to understand the past is to try to look at it from their perspective, certainly not possible to completely see it their way, but only looking at it from your own perspective will leave you far shorter, since we weren't there (and perspectives/memories/intentions etc. will even differ between people who were), I would expect any worthwhile analysis to piece together the context as best as possible, which yes, does require some brainwork
@@beefmaster4 You are the last one to talk about lazy. It took you 2 years to reply Whatever way you look at this, doesn't change the fact you are in denial. What doesn't need brain power, is making excuses for wickedness, which you seem well equipped to do. Shameful!
So are we to understand the facts are:: dirty nasty girl business with a teenage pregnancy that is ousted from house by Emma after Joseph is seen in barn with said girl and it wasn’t a sin because it was a legitimate polygamous marriage therefore not adulterous? Sincerely trying to put all this together:)
I won't disagree with anything that you have said. The only thing I want to say in defense of Bradley's argument about the word "affair" is that I have been reading Will Bagley's book this week, "Blood of the Prophets." Over and over again, they refer to the "Mountain Meadows affair." Clearly this shows that the word "Affair" didn't necessarily have a sexual connotation up to at least the year 1872 (which is where I am at in the book.)
I will not defend polygamy, nor the Alger "scrape." But if you're asking what is the apologetic response, yes I would say that the apologetic response is that because it was a "legit" plural marriage, it therefore wasn't adultery.
I don't buy this explanation, but yes that is the apologetic response.
Gospel Tangents that Bagley book is really good. Have you talked with him before?
I'm hoping I can interview him within the next month or so. If I can get him on, I'll shoot for a Sept release.
It's hard to call a book about mass murder "good", but I know what you mean. It's a tough (but important) read.
Gospel Tangents you’re right:( I really was meaning to say he’s done a good job with the historicity of the terrible affair.
I believe Oliver Cowdery and I believe Joseph was a fallen prophet who was only supposed to translate the Book of Mormon and testify it is true.
I think NOT believing Brigham Young is a stretch. Him not remembering a name, not a stretch, but confusing an entire story, like Oliver Cowdery being guilty of adultery, for unauthorized Polygamy; which I find evident in Joseph’s December 1833 journal, saying there is evil in Oliver, after the now believed 1832 revelation on Plural Marriage, Brigham saying Oliver didn’t want to wait for the right time and going ahead and marrying HIMSELF to a second wife, having to divorce her...YES, he would be mad and throw Joseph’s own words back at him, when HE did start living Celestial Plural marriage... Of course he would be mad.
My research and belief in Brigham, as although not perfect, but a good man and a prophet who doesn’t lie... There IS merit in his claims Oliver lived it before Joseph and got in HUGE trouble. Brigham Young knew Joseph well, his BROTHER Fineas was Oliver’s closet’s confidant in coming BACK to Church... He IS in his letters, letterbook!... forgetting a name (or a name being changed out of shame...) means little to debunk this claim my Brigham.
I spoke with Dr. Bill Smith, and he believes these rumors of Oliver practicing polygamy are not only exaggerated, but attempts to smear Oliver. See gospeltangents.com/2018/03/was-oliver-cowdery-polygamist/
Brigham Young told Schuyler Colfax in 1867 that polygamy was revealed to him (Brigham). Senator Julius Burrows of Michigan, the judge in the temple lot case, Samuel Clemons/Mark Twain and a number of dead SLC Mormons believed polygamy was Brigham Young's doing.
Brigham Young lied plenty, revised Joseph Smith's journals, taught false doctrine, and got wealthy off the Saints. Some people lived in fear of him.
Like The Wood Scrape? Scrape indicates to brush up against. And that the other party is an initiator. A cause. At Mountain Meadows is was said "to Give them a good scrape....they brushed up against us... " So the scrape for for brushing up against harmless Mormons terrorized by really mean Armies. "Scrape" has an aggressive connotation. Fanny was not a scrape. And if she was the "aggressor" in this Sexual affair and Brushed up against JS , then JS should have not indulged himself. Use of "scrape" deflects blame.
In listening to this again this morning, I'm a bit flabbergasted by Bradley's claims. So much speculation and so many assumptions that can't be proven. Is this LDS scholarship? It seems he's torturing the info to conform to the idea that JS married Fanny Alger.
Exactly. People do the most insane mental gymnastics to justify Joseph Smith's adultery because for 99% of the people who believe the Book of Mormon is a real ancient record, Joseph has to be "more or less a good guy" or else the Book of Mormon can't be true. There is an alternative view point; that Joseph Smith fell away from God, gave into pride and lust and became a fallen prophet/seer. David Whitmer believed this and said that Cowdery and Harris died believing similarly. I don't think this viewpoint gets the attention it deserves
@@noctissky794 Regardless of ones personal beliefs , Oliver did NOT die believing Joseph a fallen prophet . He was baptized back into the Church by Orson Hyde ( also related to the Whitmer family and a polygamist ) Oliver was headed west to join the Saints in Utah when he died of Tb . He was completed devoted to the Church and said he wished “nothing more than to rejoin the only true Church as the lowest in station “ on his death bed .
Martin Harris like wise returned to be baptized and emigrated west . His testimony was equally strong at his death so I guess David didn’t know everything .
@@tomasina10 This, "He was completed devoted to the Church" is not entirely true. His daughter reports he was disappointed in the polygamy being practiced and letters between Oliver and David showed they were trying to figure out how to best serve their roles as three witnesses after Joseph's passing. The letters showed Oliver wanted to do something and he tried to do something. He did intend on joining up with the Saints in Utah but his family stated he did not approve of the polygamy and nothing he did showed he had a testimony that BY was a prophet, seer and revelator. And if David didn't know everything, what reason is there to think Oliver and Martin knew everything? Oliver's daughter reported that Oliver did not approve of the polygamy in Utah and David reported that Joseph repented of polygamy shortly before being killed. Someone is right and someone is wrong. You won't find the truth of what really went down between the three witnesses and Joseph and God in The Corporation of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints' reports.
Oliver in 1846 on polygamy, writing to his sister, 8 years after his excommunication; "I can hardly think it possible that you have written us the truth-that
though there may be individuals who are guilty of the iniquities spoken
of,-yet no such practice can be preached or adhered to as a public
doctrine. Such may do for the followers of Mohamet; it may have done
some thousands of years ago; but no people professing to be governed by
the pure and holy principles of the Lord Jesus, can hold up their heads
before the world at this distance of time, and be guilty of such
folly-such wrong-such abomination.”
Oliver's law partner, W. Lang, that he worked with after leaving Joseph: "Cowdery never gave me a full history of the troubles of the Mormons in
Missouri and Illinois but I am sure that the doctrine of polygamy was
advocated by Smith and opposed by Cowdery."
Lang on Oliver's reaction to Joseph's death; "[Joseph] Smith was killed while [Oliver] C[owdery] lived here. I well remember the effect upon his countenance when he read the news in my presence. He immediately took the paper over to his house to read to his wife. On his return to the office we had a long conversation on the subject, and I was surprised to hear him speak with so much kindness of a man that had wronged him as Smith had. It elevated him greatly in my already high esteem, and proved to me more than ever the nobility of his nature."
Oliver was adamantly against polygamy. Oliver was either wrong and polygamy is fine, or Joseph was wrong and a fallen prophet, or Joseph was framed and was not an adulterer and Oliver was lying at worst or simply misunderstood the Fanny Alger situation.
As it stands now, the truth is buried under mud.
I can't find the comments from his daughter stating he denounced polygamy after being re-baptized, but they are out there.
I used to think Joseph was a hero and I'm still grateful for his role in the translation of the Book of Mormon but there are too many voices of authority at odds with another (Emma's thoughts matter when they support the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, they don't matter when they are call into question Brigham, David Whitmer matters when he supports the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, he doesn't matter when he is critical of Joseph, Oliver matters when he testifies of the Book of Mormon and his second baptism, Olivers clear and total split from Joseph and the Fanny situation does not matter), lies (altered history, altered scripture), the whole polygamy situation and a complete absence of legitimate revelation following Joseph's death to allow me to really definitively know what exactly happened.
I lean towards Joseph being a fallen prophet but I understand I'm operating on less than ideal information
@@noctissky794 My premise still stands …Oliver did NOT deny the BOM or Joseph . I have his his final letters ( written words ) prior to his death in 1850 testifying to the truth of The Church AND the BOM . The book they were published in was easy enough to find , No big secret . Phineas Young was at Oliver’s side when he died on assignment from Brigham. So if Oliver thought Joseph and Brigham were “fallen Prophets “ and No longer believed in the BOM why in the world would he have taken every penny he had to rejoin the Church and the Saints ? He was headed to Council Bluffs to help Elder Hyde ( my hubby’s grgrgrandfather ) when he took ill at the Whitmer home . Oliver makes No secret about his dislike of polygamy but that is a far cry from him disavowing Joseph and the BOM . Actually David recorded his last words in which he admonished his family to follow the Church and the BOM . Seems like a pretty devious and convoluted plan to say Oliver didn’t believe the Church or sustain Brigham but died trying to rejoin the Saints and used his final words to state that .
I thought Fanny Alger did give birth to a son in 1834-36. Can we get a clarification about Orison Smith? I suppose this claim comes from a self-perported descendant that was disproven by DNA evidence?
I am not familiar with the Orison Smith case. I interviewed Ugo Perego regarding the DNA tests he has done to rule Joseph Smith in or out, and all of the tests have ruled Joseph out as father. Here is the first DNA test with Ugo: ruclips.net/video/jnG4En_OBMo/видео.html
And here is the 2nd: ruclips.net/video/DXRTw6FPi7c/видео.html
Can we trust these DNA results? Makes me wonder.....
@@andreamesser4580 Yes . Many people want/wanted to be related to Joseph for a variety of reasons good and bad . It is similar to the T. Jefferson claims that have been disproven by DNA , most of those “relatives “ have quietly dropped their case after DNA . F. Brody was the source for many parentage claims with Joseph of which ALL have been proven false .