Thank you Rodney! Judging by the comments here the rulebook is certainly polarising and definitely fits a particular 'style' of gamer experience. I wish it was a little more accessible to a wider audience, as we think the game itself is so interesting. Wishing you a lovely weekend, and congratulations again for 10 years of making incredible content.
Played my first session today. Read the rules before two times watched a 30min and a 17mi tutorial and still messed up some rules also because the German translation isn't the best I guess... But I'm looking forward to the next session
Great review! The key here is that it is indeed a niche game. Cole has many times said that is a weird game and that it wont be for everyone. As you well stated, some of your 'issues' may be cool features for other people. We've been enjoying it a lot, the incredible threads of entanglement at the table are great, the deals, the backstabbing, the story... it's been fascinating. Regarding your rules problem, I can understand it, and at the same time, mostly see how it is maybe a style shock. Many wargames or conflict or simulation games follow same structures and that type of convoluted language that you talked about. As far as I know, one of the reasons in Oath is because the absurd amount of cards and effects, trying to cover every single case so nothing breaks the game. Either way, it was cool to see your perspective and I really appreciate the time invested. See you in the next one! (Actually, maybe in previous ones, I have a couple of videos to watch still 😅) ❤🌈
Completely agree Sergio! It is definitely a style issue for us. We don't play wargames so this style was not at all intuitive to us... but also I think if you're going to be attracting non wargamers (given the skin of the game, production, reduced war emphasis) then I think the rulebook should also be accessible. I think this is also confounded by the statement when you open the box about it being designed to work for different learning styles. Maggie and I have very different learning styles and it didn't work for either of us. The game itself I really enjoy... but also agree it's not for everyone. Thanks for watching as always and taking the time to write this! ☺
thank you so much for talking about “learning to play” anxiety 😅 i have yet to bring my copy of Oath to my group, but i am a little nervous to teach this one. it’s relatively easy now that i have studied the rulebook and How To vids, but teaching it to a group that knows nothing is daunting
For what it's worth, I was taught this game and I think it's much easier for the learner in that setting. So if you've got the game down, your players will likely be teachable. I did find all the terminology a bit frustrating. The experienced players at the table kept throwing around terms that meant nothing to me. I think that's one of the big things to watch out for.
It's hard sometimes when there are rule interpretations that you need to make - sometimes it doesn't come together until you're actually playing so 100% it's scary to teach before having that first game. I'm sure your friends will understand the work it took to learn the game. I think that it's not too hard to teach if you can grasp the rules... as Don points out I think it is key to translate the thematic terms carefully. For me it helps to explain the actions you can take in relation to a win condition. I hope you and your friends have a great time playing this one ☺ thanks for watching.
Thank you! My wife, son, and I finally got this to the table this past weekend and seems like we had exactly the same experience you had wrt to trying to learn and follow the walkthrough. We forced ourselves through the first game. Were disappointed. Had a think. Played it again and it started to really click (and we have also played Root and Pax Pamir second edition). Now that it has 'clicked' we're all dying to play again. Really appreciated hearing your thoughts, really hope it holds up over time, because this family is pretty excited to get back at it!
Thanks for sharing your experiences with the game Todd, and I'm sorry to hear you had the same troubles as we did getting into it but we are so glad you persisted to be able to experience this incredibly interesting game! Have you played it again now? How does it compare to the others for you? 😊
Hahah thank you! That was running through my head as I was saying it. Always the risk of filming unrehearsed and unscripted :\ Appreciate the clarification and thanks for the kind words :)
What a fantastic, thorough review! I just played this recently and was fortunate to be taught the game by experienced players. I enjoyed the game by the end, though all the terminology was frustrating. I would absolutely play it again, but tug-of-war games are not my thing, so I don't feel the need to own it, especially with its price tag.
Thank you Don! Yes absolutely, thematic terms are often my weakness (no surprise there) but it's also really hard to work these out in the rulebook. It feels like there is assumed knowledge. I guess that can happen in more traditional euros too and we can infer from the context but it's much more difficult in style of game that we play less often. Glad you were able to give this one a go!! Thanks for the kind words 😊
Am not sure why peoples said the rulebook is hard to digest, might be because I am used to Pax series and GMT games that I feel Oath is very easy to digest and really enjoyable, one of my most favorite game. Probably because a lot of peoples in the hobby tend to enjoy euro-style game, not saying it is bad or something, just wondering.
Yes I think the rulebook is quite polarising by the look of these comments. Maggie and I have quite different learning styles but both struggled equally with the rule book. Pax Pamir 2nd ed was also a little bit of a challenge and perhaps it's because of the 'filling in the gaps' or connecting the dots that happens when you're more familiar with the game style. I'm glad you are loving this one so much, we definitely enjoyed our time with it once we figured everything out. Thanks for watching!
I enjoy every type of board game, and I think the rulebook is an absolute mess and an absolute chore. The only rulebooks I find to be more of a brick wall of garbage are GMT games.
Without wanting to sound contrarian, I'm surprised to hear how many are struggling to learn Oath. I thought the playbook did a great job of going through the what (and, importantly, why's), the card packets were also a cool touch. The law of Oath acts as more like a reference thereafter and makes it easy to quickly find things. Even the Clockwork Prince flowchart seemed pretty straightforward to read when I had it in front of me. I 100% agree that the wording and presentation for the CP rules, however, seemed like a second thought and made it unnecessarily difficult to learn. It feels like there are more ambiguities on that sheet of A4 than the other 40 odd pages of rules, playbook, and helpers combined! Thanks for another great video 😊
Do you play pax games? It seems to me that people that come from the Phil Eklund rules-hellhole games understand the game faster because, while it's not exactly a Pax, it has very similar opaque style of mechanisms.
I've only played Wehrle's 2nd edition of Pax Pamir, though I think you're absolutely right with the comparison of mechanisms. Oath certainly seems to share Pamir 2E's tableau DNA, just with the card effects and action dialled up to 11.
@@whatsabandicoot Yep. Also the four different victory conditions that are not active from the get go, though that part got removed for the second edition of Pamir. It's been very interesting to see how a bigger than usual audience reacts to this very niche style of games lol
Not at all, I'm glad to hear diverse opinions about this! It certainly seems to be a style issue... and I think that there is some filling in the gaps that the reader needs to make, as well as overcoming the use of highly thematic terms (and I thought this about the Pax Pamir 2nd Ed rulebook as well which was, in my opinion actually over simplified). I'd be interested to know if you've played other war games? I'm also just really frustrated at the rulebook for promising a way to learn for many different learning styles. I don't think it delivered on its promise of making a more accessible rulebook for a broad range of people (as distinct from the set up instructions which were very clear). I'm so happy to hear that you were able to get straight into it though, and appreciate you sharing your experiences ☺
It constantly amazes me how differently we all learn and process information! This feels like a pretty perfect example for highlighting just how hard a job it is to make a rulebook for board games - I found that the playbook embedded the terms pretty well 😆 I found the "why do this" descriptors for the major actions in the playbook, and after certain actions taken during the playthrough, helped cement the terms' thematic implications and reasoning behind them. The result was a ruleset that felt intuitive to me - CP ambiguities aside - even if the decisions the player made felt nebulous. By that, I mean the game is Pax Pamir levels of opaque and I found us just following the playthrough instructions rather than really grasping the why - it wasn't until we took over and engaged with the game ourselves did things start to click in a strategic/tactical sense. But the whole group seemed to be in the same level, so it felt like mission accomplished for the teach side of things. I've never played a wargame, though I am a physicist, a programmer, and I spent time as an attorney in a previous role. The logical-to-a-fault way the Law of Oath is written really plays to my strengths when it comes to digesting information. I found the playbook really useful, but I thought it and the cards would've been a greater aid for other (visual?) learners. Its both fascinating and such a shame to hear that it doesn't seem to have been the case. I love that despite the differences everyone has had with approaching or enjoying Oath, the one thing that we can all in agree on is that it's pretty special. I can't stop thinking (or writing, apparently) about it! Have a great weekend 😊
I totally hear you on this game. It is such a bear to get to the table both for the learning aspect and setup aspect but still want to love it for its design and visual appeal :/
Right?? There is so much to like here as well... it's a difficult assessment but it certainly is a design that makes you think. Thanks for watching Trevor.
Literally every time someone tries to teach me a game with the Wehrle method of let's just jump in and play and learn as we go, it makes me strongly consider quitting immediately and I have actually done so a number of times. Being asked to make decisions without having all of the information I need to actually make those decisions gives me so much anxiety that it ruins the game for me every time. I want to know all of the rules up front, which is why I now read the rulebook for every game there's even a small possibility I might play at some point in the near future. The unintentional consequence of this is that I'm now my group's de facto games teacher, which I'm more than happy to be; but, that also means that every teach includes all of the rules up front the way I feel comfortable learning. I've had a few new players join the group who when I start teaching suggest we just jump in and start playing, and I have no issue with letting them know gently but in no uncertain terms that that's not going to happen.
Thank you for saving me some money! I was really curious about Oath, but your extremely well-done review made it clear that this would not be for me or my gaming group. Although the game components look absolutely beautiful and some of the game play sounds intriguing, it would be difficult for me to get this to the table. The effort it would take to slog through the rules does not sound like a good pay-off for me. (It sounds like trying to construct a piece of IKEA furniture in the middle of a crowded subway terminal). However, I am happy for the many people who are enjoying Oath and find it to be a good fit for them.
Thanks Stephen! The IKEA analogy made me laugh. Yes I'm so sure that many people will LOVE this game but I can appreciate what you've said about it not being for you as well. Glad the video could help with that assessment. Thanks for watching & commenting ☺
I really appreciate the passion and thought behind this review. With the negative and positive. While I think I may skip out on this one, we still have a copy of King's Dilemma to start and go through, it's fascinating how each game seems to carry session to session to make it a legacy-light game. While I'm sure there will be more resources out there to help learn the game, the ease of understanding and pacing are some key components to help me get into a game, and it sounds like this one may struggle in both categories. I totally understand Maggie with the "making me feel so stupid" sentiment. The enjoyment generally, aside from the company, in board games is being able to devise a plan to see it through and being clever, so if the rule book made me feel dumb from the start I would be gutted. I'm glad there's still plenty of enjoyment to be had, but I'll most likely only touch it if it's someone else's copy. Thanks for the review and have a good one!
Thank you Ania this is such lovely feedback and it means a lot to us. We haven't actually played King's Dilemma but it's been on our list to try for such a long time. We also need to think of who might be the best group to play it with as I'm sure this is key to making the most of the experience. Would love to hear what you think as you get into it. Thank you for watching as always and it's always nice to chat about games with you in the comments. Have a lovely weekend ahead!
Loved your thoughts on this! Our group has only played once so I'm not even close to developing my thoughts, but I think you nailed it on the head pretty well.
Haha thank you Emily! There is an Australian brand that Maggie absolutely adores - called Gorman. I think you'd find most of her clothing there! I have Kickstarter, she has Gorman, and we both need to keep our day jobs
Thx for the honest and open feedback. I bought this on KS but based on your review, this game is really not for me. I bought it solely based on Root. My tastes tend to align with yours so I will let someone else enjoy it:)
Thanks Steve! I'm glad the review could help to shed some light on the game... we did really enjoy it once we got into it but 100% it is not for everyone. I hope you have a wonderful weekend ahead :)
Thanks for all the effort you took in making this video! This is why your reviews are the best. I always know if a game will be for me or not. While this one looks fascinating, I just can't help but be reminded of Cones of Dunshire. I can't imagine how tough it would be to learn or teach if even one person at the table is starting to lose patience or interest.
Thank you so much Craig for the lovely words. I laughed a lot at the Cones of Dunshire comment. It actually looks a bit like it in an abstract way. Haha! While this game was hard to learn I don't think it is too hard to teach. Once we had the rules down we taught my sister and brother and they got it fairly quickly. The hard bit is the translation. Thanks for watching as always ☺
I was cautiously enthusiastic about this game (not really my style, but then again neither is Pax Pamir 2nd ed and I still liked it). But now it's quickly moving towards my "don't even touch it" list. :) Between the war game aspects and the opaque rules, AND the need to play it repeatedly with the same players, it's just not something that I think fits my style and my playing time these days.
That sounds like a fair assessment based on what interests you! If you like PP2nd Ed you might enjoy experiencing a couple of games with someone who can teach you (rather than own it). Thank you for watching and taking the time to comment 😊
Just as a counter argument and a bit of encouragement: Oath's first play is daunting, but it gets WAY easier after that. Honestly, outside the combat rules, it's pretty straightforward. You also don't need to play with the same group like, at all. It's pretty cool to change groups actually. And I also feel it doesn't have that wargame feeling... Root is much more of a wargame than Oath, by miles.
Best review and most balanced review I have seen of this game. I have the collectors edition. I want to play and very intrigued by the promise but I can see it is going to be hard to find a group. I actually felt the highs and lows as you described your experiences though…can’t say I have ever noticed that in a review before where my emotions went from I need to play to I need to sell during a single review…lol. I really do already have too many games (heresy). So my brain says sell.
Loved this video. I really REALLY love Oath. Its a doozy at first but I've really enjoyed it. Totally get how its not for everyone though, its a super niche war game.
So glad to hear you love Oath and are getting so much enjoyment out of the game. It's a wonderful design. Thanks for watching and glad you enjoyed the review ☺
I'm surprised this game is so universally loved even among Euro fans who hate king making. I know not every game is for everyone, but considering almost the entire game is "bash the leader," I figured this one would be more polarizing than it has been.
I think it's hard to deny the way the design itself creates excitement and tension around the table. Certainly towards our later plays of the game the king making became more prevalent... but the rest of the game feels so swingy and reactive that maybe it feels less aggressive when it happens.. (better than if you were diligently working towards a strategy in a euro and someone throws the game at the end...) Thanks for sharing your thoughts Andrew!
Erik, can you name any other channels with negative reviews? Even this one is overall pretty positive. Not making any judgments - I'm just surprised it's been received so well and curious what you are seeing.
Perhaps Oath could be played as a sort of Twilight Imperium Light? Very diplomatic, empire granting or closing access to resources (denizen powers) on the map, exiles building power and biding time before striking. Lean hard into the politics.
Yeah, a friend in my game group backed this game. The components are amazing! The playthrough was unique, to say the least. I ended up winning by being in the right position at the right time. I would give this game another go, but I couldn't see anybody other than my game group enjoying this game. Great review!!
Hahah right place right time, I love that. It's a nice one to experience with a consistent group (and probably the more heavier leaning group of friends!) My family really had fun with it but they were probably better at it than I was...!! Thanks for watching as always friend
Great review! I must say it rekindled my love of Oath, such a unique game most importantly for its social aspect, in terms of ongoing warmongering between players, grudges and debates around the table. I think there is as much gaming around the table as there is on the board, which is my favourite aspect in board games. In fact this is the only game i ever played where i enjoyed relinquishing my fight for a win, just to block my nemesis... brilliant! Thanks for your always great videos!
Another great videos! So so happy, I did not buy this. i was worried about Lisa and I having a hard time learning this game. And this review made me feel better about it. Thank you so much!
That was an amazing video!! The fact that you had so many feelings made it a joy to watch to see the push and pull of We LOOOOVEE this, but this other aspect was HORRIBLE!!! I wish more videos were like this because this completely confirmed that this game is not for me, without a doubt. I hate the feeling of being ganged up on. Last night we played Rising Sun, which is a game that I adore, but at the end I was ganged up on and in that game it doesn't bother me when I'm in the lead, but I was dead last by a good margin, so the ganging up felt personal even though it wasn't, it was more about opportunity for the other players who couldn't reach each other so they went for me. My final score was rather embarrassing in the end. But hey, it's just a game and the experience right up until the end was amazing, but to have that feeling throughout a game? No thank you. But thank you for the great review!
Thank you so much! We certainly had a lot to get off our chest with this one 😅 glad you enjoyed it. I am currently painting Rising Sun at the moment and so excited to hear that you love it (generally but sounds like not that last game!) I agree that it is particularly insulting to be targeted when you're not in the lead!! Thanks for watching and taking the time to share your thoughts and feedback, we really appreciate appreciate support. 😊
@@ThinkerThemer Oh I still enjoyed that last game, I just need to find a way to laugh off being targeted. It's completely part of the game and I knew it would come at some point, but even as a grown up it can be a challenge to be targeted.
Glad I'm not alone with learning the game. I did the walk thru and when I finished it, I had the very same reaction as you did - "Now What?" I guess its get some friends on board and just jump in!
Thanks Brian! Yes the ease of set up made it even more confronting to then tackle the rules I think... ! I hope you get a chance to play it soon? Would love to hear your thoughts.
Awesome review as always Maggie and Amy! Thanks so much for investing a lot of time and energy into this one and providing us with a great review. Have a great week! :-)
Thanks for the review, I backed the Kickstarter campaign and was quite excited for the game as I followed along on Cole Werhle's designer diaries, but once I received it, I couldn't get my head around the rules (mainly to play solo), so ended up selling the game before I even had a game. I love Pax Pamir and Root, but unfortunately this game didn't resonate with me.
Thank you for sharing your experiences Andrew and sorry to hear that the rulebook was a barrier for you as well. I definitely think there is a style issue - it seems to be quite polarising. Thanks for watching as always and taking the time to comment :)
Wow that was a doozy! Well done getting your thoughts out on this one. It definitely does not seem like its for me. I wonder if this is sort of a case, as in any art form, where the creator is just working at such a conceptual high level that they may birth something objectively genius but pretty niche and inaccessible to the general public. I feel like I encounter it much more in film and music where critics write essays, deconstructing the piece and seeing things that make it a masterpiece and yet it's generally not enjoyable on a day to day level. Like a song you listen to and wouldn't ever put on your playlist again but can recognize was unique and special. I found that with Fiona Apples newest album Fetch the Bolt Cutters Critics loved it and thought it was a masterpiece for it's moment and I recognize what makes it special but would never listen to it again or put further effort into enjoying it. Maybe Cole is an example of that creative genius in his medium that just reached a little too high and too niche on this one for the average person.
I definitely think there are some choices that have been made to appeal to the niche and those most familiar and appreciative of this particular style of artform. Totally fair and expected of any artist (as you describe!) But I suspect that most of our viewers are not in the heartland of this genre either, so our assessment has to come from a place of the everyday gamer (as that's authentic to our experience!) Honestly though the game could definitely have the "everyday enjoyment" I just wish it was a bit more accessible. So maybe it's more like a masterpiece that has been commissioned to a private gallery for fewer to see and appreciate 😅 I enjoyed your interpretation of the review and game Aaron, thank you as always for watching and taking the time to comment ☺
Thanks for watching as always Mindy! We didn't play 2 player but suspect as others have mentioned that this is a game that shines at higher player counts.
Thanks so much for this review. I was curious about Oath when it first released, but passed up on it. With it back on Kickstarter, I have been digesting all the Oath content I can, to try and work out if I should get it. I am so into this game and would love to get it, but ultimately it seems to be down to the group you have. I just don't think I've got the right people to play this with (certainly not regularly). I'm prepared to put in the work and learn it, but I think if I tried to introduce this to my husband (not a board gamer), he would look at me like I was insane! Thanks again for your honest review and opinions, would love to know if two years later this stayed in your collection, and if you played it again?
The one thing I disagree with you about the manual and learning process is that I find the walkthrough to be VERY good and helpful. I mean, the game IS opaque, and it's not like the walkthrough is over and you know all you need to do. It's still a discovery process, which is why I tend to love opaque games more than anything else. That said, the walkthrough does an excellent job of helping people understand how to read the board state and how to pursue a plan, and why each action can help.
What a great review! I always appreciate the effort you put into thoroughly exploring a game and the fair and balanced way you approach things. I always know that regardless of whether you like a game or not, I will get the information I need to know whether the game is for me. I won’t be picking this one up myself because I don’t see it hitting the table much, but I do hope I get to play it at some point since it seems like an interesting experience. Awesome work as always! Thanks for putting in the time to really do this one justice!
Thank you Shelby for always watching and taking the time to write! It means a lot to have your support and we are glad that it comes through that we are at least trying our best to explain why someone might like or not like a game (even if we do or don't!) Hope things are a little warmer there and that you have some nice summer weekend plans .... (or at least some online shopping...)
Was wondering when this video was coming. Glad I held off on picking this one up. Have you tried Root at all? Would be curious to hear your thoughts on that one as a thematic war game.
Only in app form! We own it and are definitely working towards a review of that sometime... might take a little break from war style games after the amount we played Oath though 😅 ☺ thanks for the suggestion and for watching!
I'm always very intrigued by games that don't really seem like anything else to come before, but I am very much convinced Oath is not for me or anyone in my group.
I play this with my brothers and stepdad every weekend, most games have twists and last minute clutches. I almost won as a visionary with a factory pumping out relics but lost out on a dice roll
I personally picked the game up quickly, but at least half of the people I’ve taught have really struggled so thanks for bringing that up. Good to know maybe I’m not just a bad teacher! :)
Great review! I'm with Amy on this title. I thoroughly admire the unique design and want to love it and add it to my collection, but I reluctantly realise Oath is not a game for me. There are so many other brilliant games that me and my gaming friends would prefer to learn and play instead of Oath. Thanks for an awesome boardgames channel. It's one of the best on RUclips. Keep up the good work. It's much appreciated. (Looking forward to seeing the postcard wall background.)
Thank you so much Matts, those words mean a lot to us and I really appreciate you taking the time to comment. Oath is an interesting one isn't it... now I can't bear to give it up even though at this point it feels like an admired piece of art being kept in a cupboard lol. Hmm.. :) thanks for watching and hope you got to see the postcard background in the Distilled video... it looks soooooooooooooo great we love it
Awesome review! Thank you for being so honest even in the face of all the hype around this game. Based on what you mentioned with the rules being not good but the game being brilliant, I am hoping that a big rules overhaul will come out in the future. Then maybe you could dust off the box, slap the revised rule book in there and potentially get some more play time out of it.
Thanks Gabriel that means a lot to us. I know the rules work for those familiar with the style and so I wouldn't expect an overhaul but I do think it's certainly a game to experience and wish it was more accessible in that way. I hope you get a chance to try it sometime. Thank you for watching and again for all of the support ☺
Argh, I just bought the game and now I'm having second thoughts. I really hate bad rule books or frustrating-to-learn-complicated games. That's why I still have on my self of shame games like War of the Ring, Lisboa or Batman Gotham City Chronicles. Oath really interested me as it's a game that it doesn't look like any other game, so it was very difficult to judge whether it was for me. Now I suspect that it won't be my wife's cup of tea (ouch, first punch), but I have several groups of people who may want to commit...except that we have never played a campaign game before. In any case I have seen already some tutorial videos around, so I hope that with those I can overcome the first handicap. And also, it looks so nice! :-)
Just as a little encouragement, the rule book is actually very well done. It might just gel for some people more than for others. I have plenty of sloppy rules books, and this is not one of them.
Yes please don't feel discouraged Mirko... even if the rulebook is not your style (like it was definitely not for us) there are sooo many playthroughs and how to play videos now that I'm sure you will have the resources to get through it. The game itself is so interesting and unique that it was still worth learning for us. If you get really stuck on something and need a clarification, feel free to drop me a message ☺ thanks for watching.
One thing I keep hearing and think needs debunking: Oath is NOT a campaign game. You can play as many games as you like, with as many different people as you like. There's a lot of enjoyment in that and there's no requirement, at ALL, to keep the same group between plays.
Thank you so much for this review. Your thoughts remind me of my first encounters with Vast: the crystal caverns. Huge barrier to entry with the rule book and assymetric player boards. Everyone had homework to learn everything before game night. Once the rules were learned, the discovery of the faction mechanics kept us interested for a few games. But once the newness of the factions wore out, the 1 versus all game got old, and we eventually gave it up. Seems I will wait and see if a friend picks up Oath and can teach me, otherwise I will probably pass.
Thanks for sharing these thoughts Peter! We've never played Vast - but your description of it did give me a bit of anxiety after learning this beast of a game. I think we will stick to some more straightforward symmetric games for now I do hope you get to try it sometime. Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment.
Love the sincere and fair review. I have tried to read through the rules and try to setup a first play, but man is it hard to get into. Maybe the lack of good and simple tutorial videos and play throughs adds to that. The font type and size (rulebook) does make you feel struggling a true law book. But I do not want to feel I am studying law at uni. I had the same experience with Root, but the good tutorials an video play throughs, together with the app version made me completely grasp that game and now I love it. I had hopes for Oath to do the same. But I can see the things you do in this game become repetitive and less enjoyable. But also I agree, that from the collector's perspective it's a gem.
Thanks Sebastian! I'm sorry to hear it's been a hard time getting into it for you as well. If there's anything we can do to help clarify the rules please drop us a message in discord...! We'd be more than happy to talk you through it as it's definitely not as hard as it appears in the rulebooks ☺
If that's something you'd like, I'd be super willing to play as the Clockwork Prince on TTS to help you learn it. I love Oath and quite like the CP, but I know the rules are incredibly weird and the manual doesn't help.
I've heard someone saying about this game that the first game or two will be "a wash" as you learn the rules. I think it might have been said by Cole Wherle, or said to him and he didn't disagree. That's perhaps an attitude to learning games that a) is stressful for people who are happy to read a rulebook but want to make decisions based on understanding the rules. b) not great if your gaming group gets together once every six weeks assuming no scheduling conflicts.
This is very true! We certainly appreciated it from the perspective of loving Pax Pamir 2nd ed... but I can see that a broader experience would've really helped with the rulebook issues we had. Thanks for watching!
@20:01 I disagree (after 2 years).. This game really wants all Players to be Exiles in order to have options (Visions)! There are many games where the mentioned "chase" does not take place, as everyone is chasing their own Agenda (with varying degrees of Priorities), while still trying to weaken each other.
Thanks for a very nice informative video about youe experience with Oath. It sounds like you got a decent ammount of plays out of it before you felt it was enough. How many was it 10 or 15? Many gamers often never play a game 10 times even if they like it. So I guess a game that go pass 10 games is good enough eey? :)
I would disagree with you comment that "the best player doesn't always win". This is a games where managing the other player is as important a skill as managing your economy, and that a powerful move that gives you an early lead is not skillful playing.
Thank you for your thoughts! Yes you're quite right, I addressed this in an earlier comment. I should've said the player who works the hardest doesn't always win... and I also mentioned the fortunate luck that sometimes does help a right place right time win. Hope you enjoyed the rest of the review:)
Excellent review. Learning the rules from the rulebook is the test that all games should go through, because that's the way most buyers of games experience it. So I appreciate that coverage especially. At the risk of being reductionist, I want a game to make me feel that I am clever rather than make me feel that the designer is clever, which is what it seems Oath is doing for you. I'm still intrigued, but mostly because I want to be part of the conversation around this game, not because I, you know, want to be actually playing it. Thanks for posting.
Maggie really struggled with "not feeling clever" during the process of learning this game. I think it comes down to the familiarity with the genre and the ability to fill in the gaps or infer the meaning of a thematic term. Glad you are at least enjoying the discourse around this one. Thank you for watching and taking the time to comment 😊
A definition of "best player" where that player isn't the winner a lot of the time, feels a bit weird to me. ;-) Somebody can be great at building his/her economy or winning battles - but if that doesn't translate to winning a lot, then that player is not actually the best player. Sure, the chancellor rules by default. But also, everybody knows that and the sum of the exiles is much stronger than the chancellor and they have alternate win conditions available where the chancellor doesn't start ahead. And lastly, yes, you have to work together to keep the common enemy from winning. The trick is to do that and also prepare your own win. S/he who can do that is the actual best player.
Yes that is a very fair point! I guess the luck of the draw of a fate card that happens to align with your resources feels a little less strategic (without even going into a lazy chancellor win lol) but I take your point that you can 'somewhat' prepare for these things and you are also choosing to draw cards. While they might not be the "best" player there is certainly a feeling that the person who seems to be working very hard to win is not always the person who wins. Thank you for watching and sharing these thoughts!
@@ThinkerThemer I remember another thing from my Oath games that many players probably don't realize right away: Supply gets restricted by boats presence of warbands. That got me in a situation where I, as chancellor had dominating rule over sites and grate battleplans, but I didn't have enough supply to get my army from the cradle to the hinterlands and also do an effective attack on the banner of an exile who moved there. Exiles working on visions can use that and make it harder for a militarily dominant chancellors to attack them in time. And for the chancellor it means you always have to balance how much military you can deploy to maintain and defend site rule, if you still want to be able to prevent vision victories that rise in a far corner of your empire. It's a fascinating game.
Hi girls! I’ve laughed a lot with you comparing the game’s terminology as a riddle, because I had the same problem: I’m from Spain and the wasn’t any translation of the rulebook on my language or good tutorials of the game. So chaotic! One week after of receiving the game, I could finally try it. Cheers!
Yall, the worst thing has happened! I bought Oath for my group... got through the walkthrough and first game... I'm the only one that enjoyed it... 🥲🥲🥲
@@ThinkerThemer haha 😄... It feels a bit desperate, but I have started looking into Facebook Groups for boardgaming in my area. I even posted on one, asking if folks like or dislike Oath. Let's see if total strangers will let me play with them! Lol
I agree about the rule book. It took me sooo long to figure out what to do when I reached another facet of the gameplay (e.g. campaigning or becoming a citizen). I had to type out my own rules for campaigning. I still don’t know what cards and warbands to count when deciding if the Clockwork Prince is “battle ready”. That kind of crap should be easy to find in the rule book. If it wasn’t for the excellent artwork, I would have probably given up entirely. I appreciate the design of the game and how players can interact (it’s actually pretty brilliant), but I think this is my last Cole Wehrle game because I don’t want to struggle this hard again with such a dry and useless rule book.
Thanks for a great review. I was not a fan of Root, though I know many people love it. I DO like wargames, but I think this is not for me... :( Fortunately/unfortunately (?) I am starting this tonight. We'll see, what I think after playing.
Brilliant review. I'm gearing up for my first play this weekend and am looking forward to it very much! Your reflections on learning the game and playing it are very helpful because, while I feel comfortable with looking up information in the Law of Oath, they give a sense of how Oath 'feels'. Wish me luck!
I can’t stand the solo rules sheet. It’s absolutely brutal to learn compared to all the other rules provided. As a solo experience it feels heartless and far too easy to set-up a win at the last moment
Poor Maggie was feeling really upset about it too - she felt like she was really letting everyone down but unfortunately that is the reality of her experience with it and it's a shame it might act as a barrier for others too. Hope you are at least enjoying the multiplayer experience. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
May have missed it. What was your player count? Really appreciate the review. Opinions definitely seemed mixed on this, but I'm excited to at least give it a shot.
Hello ! I'm a passionate yet casual board gamer, and I have recently discovered your reviews and love them. I now rely on two reviewers - yourselves and SUSD. This was such a good review, and I loved Maggie's comment about how she already has a clockwork prince 😆 I don't know how best to reach out to you to leave feedback though, so I'm trying here. I've got two questions along with some comments: 1. Have you ever considered delving into rules explanations/guide videos? Maggie's thematic explanation at the beginning of this video was so good, and Amy's explanations of mechanics in other reviews has been so concise I feel you would both be so good at it. 2. Could you review Root? I came upon this review looking for your opinion on Root... And I don't know how else to suggest a review for you other than through here (your twitter hasn't been updated in a while) Thank you for the great content!
Hello!! Lovely to meet you and thanks for such kind words about the channel. We are big fans of SUSD too so that means a lot! We both work full time outside of gaming, so time is our biggest challenge with youtube content. With reviews we get to do most of the planning as we play them... whereas rules explanations/guides require less playing and more planning. They both still take a lot of time but we were never wanting to make paid content for publishers as then it would feel more like a (second!) job. Root is one we'd love to cover in the future. We're a big fan of Cole Werhle and just need to play it more to experience all of the factions. It's been hard for us to get it to the table but maybe 2023 is the year we go deeper on it!! Great to have you here. Thanks for watching & for taking the time to reach out. ❤️ A&M
@@ThinkerThemer to be honest, took me at least a year to decide you're on par with SUSD, I didn't take saying that lightly 🙂 Thank you so much for getting back to me, it blows me away you do this as a hobby but it makes sense. There's always the risk that when something becomes a job, it also becomes "work". So thank you for your reviews, the two of you together deliver such a good balanced perspective. I'm both a mechanics and theme person so with every review I appreciate both of your contributions equally. Thank you 😊. Looking forward to the Root review if you can get around to it, I'm really on the fence on whether I'd like that one, and whether it would fit with my group. I have Pax 2e and love it, I own Oath but have yet to play it, and for some reason Root I'm just not sure about
In all of our games so far I would say it's more of an Amy game than a Maggie game. It's directly confrontational but the different faction mechanics are intriguing. I think it strongly fits with a group that can play it together a lot... which is why we find it hard to get to the table. We play with a lot of different groups and it's a challenging teach because of the assymetry. I think it has potential to be higher ranked than either Pax Pamir 2e (which I love mechanically) and oath (which I enjoyed experimentally ;)). I hope that helps a little!
Roll a die to win... You lost me there. And I am not into the things you mention. A good review nonetheless 👍 I will be playing Mare Nostrum Empires on 5 tomorrow and I am really excited about it. I enjoyed the original many years ago.
It It really is not "roll a die to win." There is a rising (doubling) chance that the game ends after turns 5 if the chancellor is still fulfilling the main victory condition. This creates a send of urgency for the players.
I hadn't heard of Mare Nostrum even though I love Nidavellir by the same designer! How did it go? Did you enjoy it as much as the original? BTW I do think the roll to win with the die creates a nice tension in Oath but totally understand that there are probably many reasons why the game is not for you. Glad the review could help with that assessment 😊
@@ThinkerThemer one player canceled so we played on 4. The game sadly ended too soon when the new trade leader chose too many resources to trade and one player was able to afford building the pyramids. This makes you win instantly. I personally enjoy the game but not sure my friends did. It was an anti climactic end just before it got interesting.
There's a good game in there somewhere but this designer needs to hire an editor. Not just for the rulebook which is garbage but also for the rules, they're unintuitive and all over the place.
I appreciated hearing you address your personal experience with the rule book and learning!
Are you making a how to play video Rodney? This one is a toughie
@@pattylank8939 Thanks for the interest! I talk a bit about that here: ruclips.net/video/EdtDuvIUa6A/видео.html&t=342
Thank you Rodney! Judging by the comments here the rulebook is certainly polarising and definitely fits a particular 'style' of gamer experience. I wish it was a little more accessible to a wider audience, as we think the game itself is so interesting. Wishing you a lovely weekend, and congratulations again for 10 years of making incredible content.
Played my first session today. Read the rules before two times watched a 30min and a 17mi tutorial and still messed up some rules also because the German translation isn't the best I guess... But I'm looking forward to the next session
Great review! The key here is that it is indeed a niche game. Cole has many times said that is a weird game and that it wont be for everyone. As you well stated, some of your 'issues' may be cool features for other people. We've been enjoying it a lot, the incredible threads of entanglement at the table are great, the deals, the backstabbing, the story... it's been fascinating.
Regarding your rules problem, I can understand it, and at the same time, mostly see how it is maybe a style shock. Many wargames or conflict or simulation games follow same structures and that type of convoluted language that you talked about. As far as I know, one of the reasons in Oath is because the absurd amount of cards and effects, trying to cover every single case so nothing breaks the game.
Either way, it was cool to see your perspective and I really appreciate the time invested. See you in the next one! (Actually, maybe in previous ones, I have a couple of videos to watch still 😅) ❤🌈
Completely agree Sergio! It is definitely a style issue for us. We don't play wargames so this style was not at all intuitive to us... but also I think if you're going to be attracting non wargamers (given the skin of the game, production, reduced war emphasis) then I think the rulebook should also be accessible. I think this is also confounded by the statement when you open the box about it being designed to work for different learning styles. Maggie and I have very different learning styles and it didn't work for either of us.
The game itself I really enjoy... but also agree it's not for everyone.
Thanks for watching as always and taking the time to write this! ☺
@@ThinkerThemer I can see what you mean and totally agree. In the end, we want to have less barriers so more people can get into the game!
You guys are very good at articulating your feelings and presenting how the game plays and feels 😊
thank you so much for talking about “learning to play” anxiety 😅 i have yet to bring my copy of Oath to my group, but i am a little nervous to teach this one. it’s relatively easy now that i have studied the rulebook and How To vids, but teaching it to a group that knows nothing is daunting
For what it's worth, I was taught this game and I think it's much easier for the learner in that setting. So if you've got the game down, your players will likely be teachable. I did find all the terminology a bit frustrating. The experienced players at the table kept throwing around terms that meant nothing to me. I think that's one of the big things to watch out for.
It's hard sometimes when there are rule interpretations that you need to make - sometimes it doesn't come together until you're actually playing so 100% it's scary to teach before having that first game. I'm sure your friends will understand the work it took to learn the game. I think that it's not too hard to teach if you can grasp the rules... as Don points out I think it is key to translate the thematic terms carefully. For me it helps to explain the actions you can take in relation to a win condition.
I hope you and your friends have a great time playing this one ☺ thanks for watching.
Thank you! My wife, son, and I finally got this to the table this past weekend and seems like we had exactly the same experience you had wrt to trying to learn and follow the walkthrough. We forced ourselves through the first game. Were disappointed. Had a think. Played it again and it started to really click (and we have also played Root and Pax Pamir second edition). Now that it has 'clicked' we're all dying to play again. Really appreciated hearing your thoughts, really hope it holds up over time, because this family is pretty excited to get back at it!
Thanks for sharing your experiences with the game Todd, and I'm sorry to hear you had the same troubles as we did getting into it but we are so glad you persisted to be able to experience this incredibly interesting game! Have you played it again now? How does it compare to the others for you? 😊
Love y'all's videos, quick rules check... The dice is rolled on turns 5, 6, and 7, auto win at end of 8th
Hahah thank you! That was running through my head as I was saying it. Always the risk of filming unrehearsed and unscripted :\ Appreciate the clarification and thanks for the kind words :)
What a fantastic, thorough review! I just played this recently and was fortunate to be taught the game by experienced players. I enjoyed the game by the end, though all the terminology was frustrating. I would absolutely play it again, but tug-of-war games are not my thing, so I don't feel the need to own it, especially with its price tag.
Thank you Don! Yes absolutely, thematic terms are often my weakness (no surprise there) but it's also really hard to work these out in the rulebook. It feels like there is assumed knowledge. I guess that can happen in more traditional euros too and we can infer from the context but it's much more difficult in style of game that we play less often. Glad you were able to give this one a go!! Thanks for the kind words 😊
Thanks for your efforts. I passed on it, since I mostly play solo. Your review made me feel correct about my decision.
Thanks for taking the time to comment John and glad the review was helpful 😊
Am not sure why peoples said the rulebook is hard to digest, might be because I am used to Pax series and GMT games that I feel Oath is very easy to digest and really enjoyable, one of my most favorite game. Probably because a lot of peoples in the hobby tend to enjoy euro-style game, not saying it is bad or something, just wondering.
Yes I think the rulebook is quite polarising by the look of these comments. Maggie and I have quite different learning styles but both struggled equally with the rule book. Pax Pamir 2nd ed was also a little bit of a challenge and perhaps it's because of the 'filling in the gaps' or connecting the dots that happens when you're more familiar with the game style. I'm glad you are loving this one so much, we definitely enjoyed our time with it once we figured everything out. Thanks for watching!
I enjoy every type of board game, and I think the rulebook is an absolute mess and an absolute chore. The only rulebooks I find to be more of a brick wall of garbage are GMT games.
Thank you. I was waiting for your opinion. Game is coming tomorrow)
Look forward to hearing your thoughts once you've had a chance to get it to the table ☺
Without wanting to sound contrarian, I'm surprised to hear how many are struggling to learn Oath. I thought the playbook did a great job of going through the what (and, importantly, why's), the card packets were also a cool touch. The law of Oath acts as more like a reference thereafter and makes it easy to quickly find things. Even the Clockwork Prince flowchart seemed pretty straightforward to read when I had it in front of me.
I 100% agree that the wording and presentation for the CP rules, however, seemed like a second thought and made it unnecessarily difficult to learn. It feels like there are more ambiguities on that sheet of A4 than the other 40 odd pages of rules, playbook, and helpers combined!
Thanks for another great video 😊
Do you play pax games? It seems to me that people that come from the Phil Eklund rules-hellhole games understand the game faster because, while it's not exactly a Pax, it has very similar opaque style of mechanisms.
I've only played Wehrle's 2nd edition of Pax Pamir, though I think you're absolutely right with the comparison of mechanisms. Oath certainly seems to share Pamir 2E's tableau DNA, just with the card effects and action dialled up to 11.
@@whatsabandicoot Yep. Also the four different victory conditions that are not active from the get go, though that part got removed for the second edition of Pamir. It's been very interesting to see how a bigger than usual audience reacts to this very niche style of games lol
Not at all, I'm glad to hear diverse opinions about this! It certainly seems to be a style issue... and I think that there is some filling in the gaps that the reader needs to make, as well as overcoming the use of highly thematic terms (and I thought this about the Pax Pamir 2nd Ed rulebook as well which was, in my opinion actually over simplified). I'd be interested to know if you've played other war games?
I'm also just really frustrated at the rulebook for promising a way to learn for many different learning styles. I don't think it delivered on its promise of making a more accessible rulebook for a broad range of people (as distinct from the set up instructions which were very clear).
I'm so happy to hear that you were able to get straight into it though, and appreciate you sharing your experiences ☺
It constantly amazes me how differently we all learn and process information!
This feels like a pretty perfect example for highlighting just how hard a job it is to make a rulebook for board games - I found that the playbook embedded the terms pretty well 😆
I found the "why do this" descriptors for the major actions in the playbook, and after certain actions taken during the playthrough, helped cement the terms' thematic implications and reasoning behind them. The result was a ruleset that felt intuitive to me - CP ambiguities aside - even if the decisions the player made felt nebulous. By that, I mean the game is Pax Pamir levels of opaque and I found us just following the playthrough instructions rather than really grasping the why - it wasn't until we took over and engaged with the game ourselves did things start to click in a strategic/tactical sense. But the whole group seemed to be in the same level, so it felt like mission accomplished for the teach side of things.
I've never played a wargame, though I am a physicist, a programmer, and I spent time as an attorney in a previous role. The logical-to-a-fault way the Law of Oath is written really plays to my strengths when it comes to digesting information. I found the playbook really useful, but I thought it and the cards would've been a greater aid for other (visual?) learners. Its both fascinating and such a shame to hear that it doesn't seem to have been the case.
I love that despite the differences everyone has had with approaching or enjoying Oath, the one thing that we can all in agree on is that it's pretty special. I can't stop thinking (or writing, apparently) about it!
Have a great weekend 😊
Thanks for the great review!
Thanks for the kind words David 😊
Wow! That’s it. Great review!
Thank you so much David!! :)
I totally hear you on this game. It is such a bear to get to the table both for the learning aspect and setup aspect but still want to love it for its design and visual appeal :/
Right?? There is so much to like here as well... it's a difficult assessment but it certainly is a design that makes you think. Thanks for watching Trevor.
Literally every time someone tries to teach me a game with the Wehrle method of let's just jump in and play and learn as we go, it makes me strongly consider quitting immediately and I have actually done so a number of times. Being asked to make decisions without having all of the information I need to actually make those decisions gives me so much anxiety that it ruins the game for me every time. I want to know all of the rules up front, which is why I now read the rulebook for every game there's even a small possibility I might play at some point in the near future. The unintentional consequence of this is that I'm now my group's de facto games teacher, which I'm more than happy to be; but, that also means that every teach includes all of the rules up front the way I feel comfortable learning. I've had a few new players join the group who when I start teaching suggest we just jump in and start playing, and I have no issue with letting them know gently but in no uncertain terms that that's not going to happen.
Thank you for saving me some money! I was really curious about Oath, but your extremely well-done review made it clear that this would not be for me or my gaming group. Although the game components look absolutely beautiful and some of the game play sounds intriguing, it would be difficult for me to get this to the table. The effort it would take to slog through the rules does not sound like a good pay-off for me. (It sounds like trying to construct a piece of IKEA furniture in the middle of a crowded subway terminal). However, I am happy for the many people who are enjoying Oath and find it to be a good fit for them.
Thanks Stephen! The IKEA analogy made me laugh. Yes I'm so sure that many people will LOVE this game but I can appreciate what you've said about it not being for you as well. Glad the video could help with that assessment. Thanks for watching & commenting ☺
I really appreciate the passion and thought behind this review. With the negative and positive. While I think I may skip out on this one, we still have a copy of King's Dilemma to start and go through, it's fascinating how each game seems to carry session to session to make it a legacy-light game. While I'm sure there will be more resources out there to help learn the game, the ease of understanding and pacing are some key components to help me get into a game, and it sounds like this one may struggle in both categories. I totally understand Maggie with the "making me feel so stupid" sentiment. The enjoyment generally, aside from the company, in board games is being able to devise a plan to see it through and being clever, so if the rule book made me feel dumb from the start I would be gutted. I'm glad there's still plenty of enjoyment to be had, but I'll most likely only touch it if it's someone else's copy. Thanks for the review and have a good one!
Thank you Ania this is such lovely feedback and it means a lot to us. We haven't actually played King's Dilemma but it's been on our list to try for such a long time. We also need to think of who might be the best group to play it with as I'm sure this is key to making the most of the experience. Would love to hear what you think as you get into it. Thank you for watching as always and it's always nice to chat about games with you in the comments. Have a lovely weekend ahead!
Loved your thoughts on this! Our group has only played once so I'm not even close to developing my thoughts, but I think you nailed it on the head pretty well.
Thank you so much! Hope you continue to enjoy exploring and those interesting nail biting conclusions! :)
Maggie...I am dying to know some of your favorite places to shop! I LOVE so many of your shirts! Love all the bright colors and designs 😍.
Haha thank you Emily! There is an Australian brand that Maggie absolutely adores - called Gorman. I think you'd find most of her clothing there! I have Kickstarter, she has Gorman, and we both need to keep our day jobs
Thx for the honest and open feedback. I bought this on KS but based on your review, this game is really not for me. I bought it solely based on Root. My tastes tend to align with yours so I will let someone else enjoy it:)
Thanks Steve! I'm glad the review could help to shed some light on the game... we did really enjoy it once we got into it but 100% it is not for everyone. I hope you have a wonderful weekend ahead :)
Very good review!
Thanks so much! 😊
Thanks for all the effort you took in making this video! This is why your reviews are the best. I always know if a game will be for me or not. While this one looks fascinating, I just can't help but be reminded of Cones of Dunshire. I can't imagine how tough it would be to learn or teach if even one person at the table is starting to lose patience or interest.
It's all about the cones!
Thank you so much Craig for the lovely words. I laughed a lot at the Cones of Dunshire comment. It actually looks a bit like it in an abstract way. Haha! While this game was hard to learn I don't think it is too hard to teach. Once we had the rules down we taught my sister and brother and they got it fairly quickly. The hard bit is the translation. Thanks for watching as always ☺
I was cautiously enthusiastic about this game (not really my style, but then again neither is Pax Pamir 2nd ed and I still liked it). But now it's quickly moving towards my "don't even touch it" list. :) Between the war game aspects and the opaque rules, AND the need to play it repeatedly with the same players, it's just not something that I think fits my style and my playing time these days.
That sounds like a fair assessment based on what interests you! If you like PP2nd Ed you might enjoy experiencing a couple of games with someone who can teach you (rather than own it). Thank you for watching and taking the time to comment 😊
Just as a counter argument and a bit of encouragement: Oath's first play is daunting, but it gets WAY easier after that. Honestly, outside the combat rules, it's pretty straightforward.
You also don't need to play with the same group like, at all. It's pretty cool to change groups actually.
And I also feel it doesn't have that wargame feeling... Root is much more of a wargame than Oath, by miles.
great review!
OMG, look at that crazy shirt. I want one!
Hahah Maggie has such a colourful wardrobe... I'm always surprised every time she seems to find a thematically matching outfit
Best review and most balanced review I have seen of this game. I have the collectors edition. I want to play and very intrigued by the promise but I can see it is going to be hard to find a group. I actually felt the highs and lows as you described your experiences though…can’t say I have ever noticed that in a review before where my emotions went from I need to play to I need to sell during a single review…lol. I really do already have too many games (heresy). So my brain says sell.
Loved this video. I really REALLY love Oath. Its a doozy at first but I've really enjoyed it. Totally get how its not for everyone though, its a super niche war game.
So glad to hear you love Oath and are getting so much enjoyment out of the game. It's a wonderful design. Thanks for watching and glad you enjoyed the review ☺
I'm surprised this game is so universally loved even among Euro fans who hate king making. I know not every game is for everyone, but considering almost the entire game is "bash the leader," I figured this one would be more polarizing than it has been.
I think it's hard to deny the way the design itself creates excitement and tension around the table. Certainly towards our later plays of the game the king making became more prevalent... but the rest of the game feels so swingy and reactive that maybe it feels less aggressive when it happens.. (better than if you were diligently working towards a strategy in a euro and someone throws the game at the end...)
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Andrew!
Erik, can you name any other channels with negative reviews? Even this one is overall pretty positive. Not making any judgments - I'm just surprised it's been received so well and curious what you are seeing.
Erik, can you name any other negative reviews?
Perhaps Oath could be played as a sort of Twilight Imperium Light? Very diplomatic, empire granting or closing access to resources (denizen powers) on the map, exiles building power and biding time before striking. Lean hard into the politics.
Yeah, a friend in my game group backed this game. The components are amazing! The playthrough was unique, to say the least. I ended up winning by being in the right position at the right time. I would give this game another go, but I couldn't see anybody other than my game group enjoying this game. Great review!!
Hahah right place right time, I love that. It's a nice one to experience with a consistent group (and probably the more heavier leaning group of friends!) My family really had fun with it but they were probably better at it than I was...!! Thanks for watching as always friend
Great review! I must say it rekindled my love of Oath, such a unique game most importantly for its social aspect, in terms of ongoing warmongering between players, grudges and debates around the table. I think there is as much gaming around the table as there is on the board, which is my favourite aspect in board games. In fact this is the only game i ever played where i enjoyed relinquishing my fight for a win, just to block my nemesis... brilliant!
Thanks for your always great videos!
Another great videos! So so happy, I did not buy this. i was worried about Lisa and I having a hard time learning this game. And this review made me feel better about it. Thank you so much!
Glad the video helped with the FOMO Monica. 🙂 Hope you and Lisa are doing well and having a good week. Thanks for watching & your support as always ☺
A honest review. I feel the same with most of what you said.
Thank you for watching Lenny and sharing your thoughts!
That was an amazing video!! The fact that you had so many feelings made it a joy to watch to see the push and pull of We LOOOOVEE this, but this other aspect was HORRIBLE!!! I wish more videos were like this because this completely confirmed that this game is not for me, without a doubt. I hate the feeling of being ganged up on. Last night we played Rising Sun, which is a game that I adore, but at the end I was ganged up on and in that game it doesn't bother me when I'm in the lead, but I was dead last by a good margin, so the ganging up felt personal even though it wasn't, it was more about opportunity for the other players who couldn't reach each other so they went for me. My final score was rather embarrassing in the end. But hey, it's just a game and the experience right up until the end was amazing, but to have that feeling throughout a game? No thank you. But thank you for the great review!
Thank you so much! We certainly had a lot to get off our chest with this one 😅 glad you enjoyed it.
I am currently painting Rising Sun at the moment and so excited to hear that you love it (generally but sounds like not that last game!) I agree that it is particularly insulting to be targeted when you're not in the lead!! Thanks for watching and taking the time to share your thoughts and feedback, we really appreciate appreciate support. 😊
@@ThinkerThemer Oh I still enjoyed that last game, I just need to find a way to laugh off being targeted. It's completely part of the game and I knew it would come at some point, but even as a grown up it can be a challenge to be targeted.
Glad I'm not alone with learning the game. I did the walk thru and when I finished it, I had the very same reaction as you did - "Now What?" I guess its get some friends on board and just jump in!
Thanks Brian! Yes the ease of set up made it even more confronting to then tackle the rules I think... ! I hope you get a chance to play it soon? Would love to hear your thoughts.
Awesome review as always Maggie and Amy! Thanks so much for investing a lot of time and energy into this one and providing us with a great review. Have a great week! :-)
Thank you so much Cis! Glad you enjoyed it... and hope you are having a lovely week! ☺
Thanks for the review, I backed the Kickstarter campaign and was quite excited for the game as I followed along on Cole Werhle's designer diaries, but once I received it, I couldn't get my head around the rules (mainly to play solo), so ended up selling the game before I even had a game. I love Pax Pamir and Root, but unfortunately this game didn't resonate with me.
Thank you for sharing your experiences Andrew and sorry to hear that the rulebook was a barrier for you as well. I definitely think there is a style issue - it seems to be quite polarising. Thanks for watching as always and taking the time to comment :)
Wow that was a doozy! Well done getting your thoughts out on this one. It definitely does not seem like its for me. I wonder if this is sort of a case, as in any art form, where the creator is just working at such a conceptual high level that they may birth something objectively genius but pretty niche and inaccessible to the general public. I feel like I encounter it much more in film and music where critics write essays, deconstructing the piece and seeing things that make it a masterpiece and yet it's generally not enjoyable on a day to day level. Like a song you listen to and wouldn't ever put on your playlist again but can recognize was unique and special. I found that with Fiona Apples newest album Fetch the Bolt Cutters Critics loved it and thought it was a masterpiece for it's moment and I recognize what makes it special but would never listen to it again or put further effort into enjoying it. Maybe Cole is an example of that creative genius in his medium that just reached a little too high and too niche on this one for the average person.
I definitely think there are some choices that have been made to appeal to the niche and those most familiar and appreciative of this particular style of artform. Totally fair and expected of any artist (as you describe!) But I suspect that most of our viewers are not in the heartland of this genre either, so our assessment has to come from a place of the everyday gamer (as that's authentic to our experience!) Honestly though the game could definitely have the "everyday enjoyment" I just wish it was a bit more accessible. So maybe it's more like a masterpiece that has been commissioned to a private gallery for fewer to see and appreciate 😅
I enjoyed your interpretation of the review and game Aaron, thank you as always for watching and taking the time to comment ☺
Woohoo, a new review! Hello, lovely ladies! This game sounds confounding to learn and master. Would it even be worth it at a 2-player count?
From what I have seen Two might be a bit bland in some areas but it does make the tug of war more balanced and allow a greater level of self planning.
Definitely don’t buy this for 2 players exclusively!
3+ is better than 2.
Thanks for watching as always Mindy! We didn't play 2 player but suspect as others have mentioned that this is a game that shines at higher player counts.
Thanks so much for this review. I was curious about Oath when it first released, but passed up on it. With it back on Kickstarter, I have been digesting all the Oath content I can, to try and work out if I should get it. I am so into this game and would love to get it, but ultimately it seems to be down to the group you have. I just don't think I've got the right people to play this with (certainly not regularly). I'm prepared to put in the work and learn it, but I think if I tried to introduce this to my husband (not a board gamer), he would look at me like I was insane! Thanks again for your honest review and opinions, would love to know if two years later this stayed in your collection, and if you played it again?
The one thing I disagree with you about the manual and learning process is that I find the walkthrough to be VERY good and helpful. I mean, the game IS opaque, and it's not like the walkthrough is over and you know all you need to do. It's still a discovery process, which is why I tend to love opaque games more than anything else.
That said, the walkthrough does an excellent job of helping people understand how to read the board state and how to pursue a plan, and why each action can help.
What a great review! I always appreciate the effort you put into thoroughly exploring a game and the fair and balanced way you approach things. I always know that regardless of whether you like a game or not, I will get the information I need to know whether the game is for me. I won’t be picking this one up myself because I don’t see it hitting the table much, but I do hope I get to play it at some point since it seems like an interesting experience. Awesome work as always! Thanks for putting in the time to really do this one justice!
Thank you Shelby for always watching and taking the time to write! It means a lot to have your support and we are glad that it comes through that we are at least trying our best to explain why someone might like or not like a game (even if we do or don't!) Hope things are a little warmer there and that you have some nice summer weekend plans .... (or at least some online shopping...)
Was wondering when this video was coming. Glad I held off on picking this one up. Have you tried Root at all? Would be curious to hear your thoughts on that one as a thematic war game.
Only in app form! We own it and are definitely working towards a review of that sometime... might take a little break from war style games after the amount we played Oath though 😅 ☺ thanks for the suggestion and for watching!
I'm always very intrigued by games that don't really seem like anything else to come before, but I am very much convinced Oath is not for me or anyone in my group.
And that is a great conclusion to make...! Plenty of games out there and it's all about having fun at the end of the day :) Thanks for watching!
I play this with my brothers and stepdad every weekend, most games have twists and last minute clutches. I almost won as a visionary with a factory pumping out relics but lost out on a dice roll
I personally picked the game up quickly, but at least half of the people I’ve taught have really struggled so thanks for bringing that up. Good to know maybe I’m not just a bad teacher! :)
Great review! I'm with Amy on this title. I thoroughly admire the unique design and want to love it and add it to my collection, but I reluctantly realise Oath is not a game for me. There are so many other brilliant games that me and my gaming friends would prefer to learn and play instead of Oath.
Thanks for an awesome boardgames channel. It's one of the best on RUclips. Keep up the good work. It's much appreciated.
(Looking forward to seeing the postcard wall background.)
Thank you so much Matts, those words mean a lot to us and I really appreciate you taking the time to comment. Oath is an interesting one isn't it... now I can't bear to give it up even though at this point it feels like an admired piece of art being kept in a cupboard lol. Hmm.. :) thanks for watching and hope you got to see the postcard background in the Distilled video... it looks soooooooooooooo great we love it
Awesome review! Thank you for being so honest even in the face of all the hype around this game. Based on what you mentioned with the rules being not good but the game being brilliant, I am hoping that a big rules overhaul will come out in the future. Then maybe you could dust off the box, slap the revised rule book in there and potentially get some more play time out of it.
Thanks Gabriel that means a lot to us. I know the rules work for those familiar with the style and so I wouldn't expect an overhaul but I do think it's certainly a game to experience and wish it was more accessible in that way. I hope you get a chance to try it sometime. Thank you for watching and again for all of the support ☺
Argh, I just bought the game and now I'm having second thoughts. I really hate bad rule books or frustrating-to-learn-complicated games. That's why I still have on my self of shame games like War of the Ring, Lisboa or Batman Gotham City Chronicles. Oath really interested me as it's a game that it doesn't look like any other game, so it was very difficult to judge whether it was for me. Now I suspect that it won't be my wife's cup of tea (ouch, first punch), but I have several groups of people who may want to commit...except that we have never played a campaign game before. In any case I have seen already some tutorial videos around, so I hope that with those I can overcome the first handicap. And also, it looks so nice! :-)
Just as a little encouragement, the rule book is actually very well done. It might just gel for some people more than for others. I have plenty of sloppy rules books, and this is not one of them.
Yes please don't feel discouraged Mirko... even if the rulebook is not your style (like it was definitely not for us) there are sooo many playthroughs and how to play videos now that I'm sure you will have the resources to get through it. The game itself is so interesting and unique that it was still worth learning for us. If you get really stuck on something and need a clarification, feel free to drop me a message ☺ thanks for watching.
PS. For what it's worth I think the Lisboa rulebook is very good (but that may demonstrate our preferred style more!)
One thing I keep hearing and think needs debunking: Oath is NOT a campaign game. You can play as many games as you like, with as many different people as you like. There's a lot of enjoyment in that and there's no requirement, at ALL, to keep the same group between plays.
Thank you so much for this review. Your thoughts remind me of my first encounters with Vast: the crystal caverns. Huge barrier to entry with the rule book and assymetric player boards. Everyone had homework to learn everything before game night. Once the rules were learned, the discovery of the faction mechanics kept us interested for a few games. But once the newness of the factions wore out, the 1 versus all game got old, and we eventually gave it up. Seems I will wait and see if a friend picks up Oath and can teach me, otherwise I will probably pass.
Thanks for sharing these thoughts Peter! We've never played Vast - but your description of it did give me a bit of anxiety after learning this beast of a game. I think we will stick to some more straightforward symmetric games for now I do hope you get to try it sometime. Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment.
Love the sincere and fair review. I have tried to read through the rules and try to setup a first play, but man is it hard to get into. Maybe the lack of good and simple tutorial videos and play throughs adds to that. The font type and size (rulebook) does make you feel struggling a true law book. But I do not want to feel I am studying law at uni. I had the same experience with Root, but the good tutorials an video play throughs, together with the app version made me completely grasp that game and now I love it. I had hopes for Oath to do the same. But I can see the things you do in this game become repetitive and less enjoyable.
But also I agree, that from the collector's perspective it's a gem.
Thanks Sebastian! I'm sorry to hear it's been a hard time getting into it for you as well. If there's anything we can do to help clarify the rules please drop us a message in discord...! We'd be more than happy to talk you through it as it's definitely not as hard as it appears in the rulebooks ☺
If that's something you'd like, I'd be super willing to play as the Clockwork Prince on TTS to help you learn it. I love Oath and quite like the CP, but I know the rules are incredibly weird and the manual doesn't help.
Thank you for a really nice and honest review. This is why you two are the best! And, without any "rambling" at all 😉…
Thank you so much Pascal, that means a lot to us. Appreciate your support always and hope you are having a wonderful summer's weekend.
I've heard someone saying about this game that the first game or two will be "a wash" as you learn the rules. I think it might have been said by Cole Wherle, or said to him and he didn't disagree.
That's perhaps an attitude to learning games that
a) is stressful for people who are happy to read a rulebook but want to make decisions based on understanding the rules.
b) not great if your gaming group gets together once every six weeks assuming no scheduling conflicts.
Haha. More and more it seems that people's reaction to Oath depend on whether they've played Pax games or not.
This is very true! We certainly appreciated it from the perspective of loving Pax Pamir 2nd ed... but I can see that a broader experience would've really helped with the rulebook issues we had. Thanks for watching!
@20:01 I disagree (after 2 years).. This game really wants all Players to be Exiles in order to have options (Visions)! There are many games where the mentioned "chase" does not take place, as everyone is chasing their own Agenda (with varying degrees of Priorities), while still trying to weaken each other.
Thanks for a very nice informative video about youe experience with Oath.
It sounds like you got a decent ammount of plays out of it before you felt it was enough. How many was it 10 or 15?
Many gamers often never play a game 10 times even if they like it. So I guess a game that go pass 10 games is good enough eey? :)
I would disagree with you comment that "the best player doesn't always win". This is a games where managing the other player is as important a skill as managing your economy, and that a powerful move that gives you an early lead is not skillful playing.
Thank you for your thoughts! Yes you're quite right, I addressed this in an earlier comment. I should've said the player who works the hardest doesn't always win... and I also mentioned the fortunate luck that sometimes does help a right place right time win. Hope you enjoyed the rest of the review:)
Excellent review.
Learning the rules from the rulebook is the test that all games should go through, because that's the way most buyers of games experience it. So I appreciate that coverage especially.
At the risk of being reductionist, I want a game to make me feel that I am clever rather than make me feel that the designer is clever, which is what it seems Oath is doing for you. I'm still intrigued, but mostly because I want to be part of the conversation around this game, not because I, you know, want to be actually playing it.
Thanks for posting.
Maggie really struggled with "not feeling clever" during the process of learning this game. I think it comes down to the familiarity with the genre and the ability to fill in the gaps or infer the meaning of a thematic term.
Glad you are at least enjoying the discourse around this one. Thank you for watching and taking the time to comment 😊
A definition of "best player" where that player isn't the winner a lot of the time, feels a bit weird to me. ;-)
Somebody can be great at building his/her economy or winning battles - but if that doesn't translate to winning a lot, then that player is not actually the best player.
Sure, the chancellor rules by default. But also, everybody knows that and the sum of the exiles is much stronger than the chancellor and they have alternate win conditions available where the chancellor doesn't start ahead.
And lastly, yes, you have to work together to keep the common enemy from winning. The trick is to do that and also prepare your own win.
S/he who can do that is the actual best player.
Yes that is a very fair point! I guess the luck of the draw of a fate card that happens to align with your resources feels a little less strategic (without even going into a lazy chancellor win lol) but I take your point that you can 'somewhat' prepare for these things and you are also choosing to draw cards. While they might not be the "best" player there is certainly a feeling that the person who seems to be working very hard to win is not always the person who wins. Thank you for watching and sharing these thoughts!
@@ThinkerThemer I remember another thing from my Oath games that many players probably don't realize right away: Supply gets restricted by boats presence of warbands.
That got me in a situation where I, as chancellor had dominating rule over sites and grate battleplans, but I didn't have enough supply to get my army from the cradle to the hinterlands and also do an effective attack on the banner of an exile who moved there. Exiles working on visions can use that and make it harder for a militarily dominant chancellors to attack them in time.
And for the chancellor it means you always have to balance how much military you can deploy to maintain and defend site rule, if you still want to be able to prevent vision victories that rise in a far corner of your empire.
It's a fascinating game.
Hi girls! I’ve laughed a lot with you comparing the game’s terminology as a riddle, because I had the same problem: I’m from Spain and the wasn’t any translation of the rulebook on my language or good tutorials of the game. So chaotic! One week after of receiving the game, I could finally try it.
Cheers!
yeah, I haven't played this, but Root also has a lot of issues with the rulebook...
Great review!
Thank you Jack!
Yall, the worst thing has happened! I bought Oath for my group... got through the walkthrough and first game... I'm the only one that enjoyed it... 🥲🥲🥲
Oh no! It is quite a polarising title.. I'm so sorry to hear that as I know it is a beast to take on the teach. New friends??? 😎
@@ThinkerThemer haha 😄... It feels a bit desperate, but I have started looking into Facebook Groups for boardgaming in my area. I even posted on one, asking if folks like or dislike Oath. Let's see if total strangers will let me play with them! Lol
I agree about the rule book. It took me sooo long to figure out what to do when I reached another facet of the gameplay (e.g. campaigning or becoming a citizen). I had to type out my own rules for campaigning. I still don’t know what cards and warbands to count when deciding if the Clockwork Prince is “battle ready”. That kind of crap should be easy to find in the rule book. If it wasn’t for the excellent artwork, I would have probably given up entirely. I appreciate the design of the game and how players can interact (it’s actually pretty brilliant), but I think this is my last Cole Wehrle game because I don’t want to struggle this hard again with such a dry and useless rule book.
Thanks for a great review. I was not a fan of Root, though I know many people love it. I DO like wargames, but I think this is not for me... :( Fortunately/unfortunately (?) I am starting this tonight. We'll see, what I think after playing.
Brilliant review. I'm gearing up for my first play this weekend and am looking forward to it very much! Your reflections on learning the game and playing it are very helpful because, while I feel comfortable with looking up information in the Law of Oath, they give a sense of how Oath 'feels'. Wish me luck!
I can’t stand the solo rules sheet. It’s absolutely brutal to learn compared to all the other rules provided. As a solo experience it feels heartless and far too easy to set-up a win at the last moment
Poor Maggie was feeling really upset about it too - she felt like she was really letting everyone down but unfortunately that is the reality of her experience with it and it's a shame it might act as a barrier for others too. Hope you are at least enjoying the multiplayer experience. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Communication is hard.
I think I'd like to play this with someone who owns it at a con (fingers crossed, in the next year), but there's no way I'd buy it.
Definitely have someone teach you! It's an interesting and fun experience to try.. thanks Kerry for watching!
May have missed it. What was your player count? Really appreciate the review. Opinions definitely seemed mixed on this, but I'm excited to at least give it a shot.
Hello ! I'm a passionate yet casual board gamer, and I have recently discovered your reviews and love them. I now rely on two reviewers - yourselves and SUSD. This was such a good review, and I loved Maggie's comment about how she already has a clockwork prince 😆
I don't know how best to reach out to you to leave feedback though, so I'm trying here. I've got two questions along with some comments:
1. Have you ever considered delving into rules explanations/guide videos? Maggie's thematic explanation at the beginning of this video was so good, and Amy's explanations of mechanics in other reviews has been so concise I feel you would both be so good at it.
2. Could you review Root? I came upon this review looking for your opinion on Root... And I don't know how else to suggest a review for you other than through here (your twitter hasn't been updated in a while)
Thank you for the great content!
Hello!! Lovely to meet you and thanks for such kind words about the channel. We are big fans of SUSD too so that means a lot! We both work full time outside of gaming, so time is our biggest challenge with youtube content. With reviews we get to do most of the planning as we play them... whereas rules explanations/guides require less playing and more planning. They both still take a lot of time but we were never wanting to make paid content for publishers as then it would feel more like a (second!) job.
Root is one we'd love to cover in the future. We're a big fan of Cole Werhle and just need to play it more to experience all of the factions. It's been hard for us to get it to the table but maybe 2023 is the year we go deeper on it!!
Great to have you here. Thanks for watching & for taking the time to reach out. ❤️ A&M
@@ThinkerThemer to be honest, took me at least a year to decide you're on par with SUSD, I didn't take saying that lightly 🙂
Thank you so much for getting back to me, it blows me away you do this as a hobby but it makes sense. There's always the risk that when something becomes a job, it also becomes "work". So thank you for your reviews, the two of you together deliver such a good balanced perspective. I'm both a mechanics and theme person so with every review I appreciate both of your contributions equally. Thank you 😊.
Looking forward to the Root review if you can get around to it, I'm really on the fence on whether I'd like that one, and whether it would fit with my group. I have Pax 2e and love it, I own Oath but have yet to play it, and for some reason Root I'm just not sure about
In all of our games so far I would say it's more of an Amy game than a Maggie game. It's directly confrontational but the different faction mechanics are intriguing. I think it strongly fits with a group that can play it together a lot... which is why we find it hard to get to the table. We play with a lot of different groups and it's a challenging teach because of the assymetry. I think it has potential to be higher ranked than either Pax Pamir 2e (which I love mechanically) and oath (which I enjoyed experimentally ;)). I hope that helps a little!
Roll a die to win... You lost me there. And I am not into the things you mention. A good review nonetheless 👍 I will be playing Mare Nostrum Empires on 5 tomorrow and I am really excited about it. I enjoyed the original many years ago.
It It really is not "roll a die to win." There is a rising (doubling) chance that the game ends after turns 5 if the chancellor is still fulfilling the main victory condition. This creates a send of urgency for the players.
I hadn't heard of Mare Nostrum even though I love Nidavellir by the same designer! How did it go? Did you enjoy it as much as the original?
BTW I do think the roll to win with the die creates a nice tension in Oath but totally understand that there are probably many reasons why the game is not for you. Glad the review could help with that assessment 😊
@@ThinkerThemer one player canceled so we played on 4. The game sadly ended too soon when the new trade leader chose too many resources to trade and one player was able to afford building the pyramids. This makes you win instantly. I personally enjoy the game but not sure my friends did. It was an anti climactic end just before it got interesting.
There's a good game in there somewhere but this designer needs to hire an editor. Not just for the rulebook which is garbage but also for the rules, they're unintuitive and all over the place.
Great review. Zero interest in this one
Thanks Dave! ☺
Excellent review!
Thank you so much! 💓