The presence of bronze tools is interesting, as it implies they've reached a level of sophistication of worldwide trade. Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, and they tend to be found far from one another. Our ancestors had to trade with their neighbors to import tin, largely around the Mediterranean. It would be interesting to see them building wonders similar to those of our equivalent age like the pyramids.
Or like many monks shave their hair... imagine if some of them rip all their feathers out, looking like a naked chicken for religion XD ... hilarious but also probably a thing.
Things like C.M. Kosemen's Dinosauroids or Alex Ries' Birrin are what we need more of when it comes to fictional civilized species. The lack of a human-like body plan often results in much more interesting designs for tools, clothing, etc.
That's true. Who says in order to be intelligent, you need a human body plan? Also the dinosauroids are technically people in their own context if you think about it.
Don't forget the Eosapiens! Big blue bags of gas with vacuum cleaner hoses for arms, such a delightfully alien yet pretty logical body plan for a sapient tool using species!
I'm currently working on a world where insects internalise their exoskeleton, become dominant and eventually multiple species become sapient. Because this is ~270mil years into the future, Pangea Ultima has formed and because of that there are less invasive species (less/no continental isolation), so this is the reason multiple species manage to fight/coexist. Human culture becomes a big thing for both religious and practical reasons, I imagine them waging archeological wars for our fossils, so they can reverse-engineer our tech.
I think they make aliens to look like humans because of the audience. They want to relate, so Hollywood uses the human body as a template to make aliens. Remember they are telling a story, they're not telling you how aliens could possibly look like from a different planet.
This is what would've happened if primates never evolved, basically we would've never evolved. But these dinosauroids would be the people who would've inhabited Earth.
Speculative biology and speculative evolution are such under appreciated fields as a writer these studies have helped create and explore so many new ideas
I'd imagine that dinosaurs with feathers would either pluck their feathers out or be extremely careful around fire because feathers burn very very well... I know this because we had to keep domestic turkeys away from family gatherings that had bonfires because one year one Turkey managed to get its tail set on fire when it was doing that Turkey strut thing near a fire and a spark landed on its tail...
We did live in that world for a while. Then we wiped out the competition either via mating with them, killing them or eating them. Humanity are a very aggressive species. Although it may have to do more with our past of being preyed upon. A intelligent carnivore species might not be so bent in extermination of competition
This channel truly is a gift! It’s almost like this channel is following all the theoretical study’s I’ve found interesting such as the birrin, all today’s all yesterday’s and now this. You honestly didn’t even know that there was a book about this. I figured it was just a few pieces of art from a few different people. I would have never imagined that the two separate dinosourids in this video weee from the same source due to their physiological differences.
@@typhoidtyphoon Actually, it's more unique than that. Because the avisapiens lack strong throwing muscles like humans do (they never had an arboreal existence using their forelimbs for climing), they aren't really adept at using things like atl-atls, so they made some kind of hinged mechanism to transfer power through. I forget exactly how it worked, but it's on Kosemen's blog, I think.
Nope, they're have a capability to throw that stick, they have short arms, they can throw a rock more accurate than a gorilla. It is on they're muscles, they're muscles cannot twitch so much, if that happened, they're hollow bones could easily injured.
I don't see why Troodon descendants would necessarily evolve beaks. Also I must call into question the feasibility of beak-held weaponry. Using twigs as tools is fine for a crow, trying to stab a large dinosaur with a long pointy pole that you hold with your mouth, not so much. It would be incredibly awkward and potentially dangerous to try create enough force with your neck muscles and head to make a spear like that threatening. And these dinosauroids did not evolve from birds, who started to use tools with their beaks and then retroactively evolved hands, they evolved from Troodon-like theropods who already had hands (though pretty different from ours). It's more likely that they'd try to use their already present hands for tool use and also for the hands to evolve to be more useful for such activity (or the other way around, those dinosauroids who had hand mutations that better facilitated tool use passed on their genes, leading to 'better' and 'better' hands).
Agreed. The concept looks very underdeveloped from morphological standpoint. If they insist on the animals using their mouth/beak as manipulator, it stands to reason that body part would also evolve to support that function better. Examples from the top of my head: 1. Prehensile tongue, maybe forked 2. Prehensile lips 3. Differently shaped beaks 4. Beak modifications 5. More flexible lower jaw 6. Proturding eyes to see objects being held by the beak
Man, one thing that stop them to use they're hand while holding a stick is they're bones, they have hollow bones, they're neck bones are much little bit stronger. You see, mammals didn't need to worry that a hand will be injured because of throwing or stabbing something with a stick because our bones are dense, not hollow. Those birds have hollow bones, that kind of bones is risk of getting injuries, even that type of bones made dinosaurs grow large, the disadvantage is, that will break when overusing the muscles.
Trey the Explainer made a video of what could be found in the distant past and at the very end he mentioned the possibility of intelligent pre-human organisms. One of them was this dinosaur and a sentient cephalopod. I’m dying to see the latter fleshed out.
There's a webcomic called "Dawn of Time" that had an Arc about dinosaurs very similar to dinosauroids that were worshipping the MC, I found the idea kind of cool. Glad there's someone who did something very similar and expanded upon it.
Sounds like it could be like Far Cry Primal, but the large Dinosaurs in a Stone Age world gives off Horizon Zero Dawn vibes (I know those were robots technically but they resembled Dinosaurs)
and a good thing to. because we were apes and that's why we have a shape we got now. other creatures should stick to there own shapes. no character HAVE to be human shape just to prove they're real smart just to relate with other smart creatures or aliens. it's overrated and dumb to think about.
I think humans developed their technological intelligence, because when they entered the savannah, there were animals who were much better adapted to this ecosystem, because they have already lived for millions of years in it. Our ancestors were kind of vulnerable and we are still vulnerable. We haven't the thick skin of lions or elephants or the great muscle power of other animals. That's why we began to use tools, cooperation and language. As we went this path, we lost even more raw muscle power, because our muscles became more fine coordinated to use and create tools with our hands. Those dinosauroids on the other hand, don't look like they would depend on much tools and technology. They have claws, seem to be pretty fast on foot and strong. I think they woudn't have to develop such kind of intelligence in order to survive. That's why i think, they would have a wolf-like, predatory intelligence, but not human-like. But maybe that's human-centric.
It is human-centric we were also very fucking fast and could run and hunt anything we wanted but for some reason we still evolved to be smart. And we have teeth like they have claws so why would we need sticks to hunt with? Because it works better a small intelligent dinosaur could easily start evolving to be intelligent like humans
@@Taikuriketsuppi humans aren’t “very fucking fast”, what humans have as an advantage over other mammals is the fact that we sweat, whereas furry mammals more often than not have to dissipate heat through breathing, meaning early humans could chase prey for far longer than many other animals, there are still some tribes in Africa which hunt this way and will literally wait until the prey drops from exhaustion. Humans don’t have muzzles meaning biting something is comparatively to other animals very hard, our mouth isn’t a tool like it is for other animals and we also are much more susceptible to diseases we could potentially ingest if we had to put literally everything in our mouths to carry it, or use it. By comparisons dinosaurs were very resistant to infections like modern reptiles, this has to do with the higher percentage of serum in reptilian blood when compared to mammalian, hence why many fossils show signs of healed wounds which would have been fatal on other animals. It is also extremely disadvantageous for us to use our mouths as weapons again because of our body plan, you need to be extremely close to your prey potentially putting you in harms way, hence why the most ancient weapon of all is the spear, which can produce deadly force whilst keeping the user safe, the original comment does have a point, whilst I wholeheartedly believe that human-like body structure is not necessary for intelligent evolution, these speculative designs retain far too many natural features which they could use and wouldn’t warrant the need for tools. Also this video forgot to mention that the tests conducted by the university on those crows were controlled tests with the crow having previously been introduced ti the problem, there is another one such experiment where the crow had already been taught how to solve a puzzle then they just figured out that’s what they had to do to get the prize, these weren’t random birds that suddenly figured out how to get to the food prize, yeah they’re very intelligent animals but they’re not Hawking birds.
Who says these dinosauroids did not went through a similar process to humans? I think they are more adapted to their niche than us humans but who says another species wasnt even more so and forced them to get creative?
Funnily enough, on this branch timeline there does exist a marsupial species that’s very similar to earth apes, and has great potential to evolve intelligence
@@MrFossil367ab45gfyth we’d have to consider the possibility that there would exist a major language barrier though. Mammals have very different vocal chords compared to non-avian Dinosaurs, so I’d imagine their forms of communication would be so distinct it be impossible to form a language bridge. But I could be wrong, of course
Video states crows use simple tools, but the reality is more fascinating - some species actually _manufacture_ them, not just pick up a stick off the ground. Not even apes do that.
The cool thing is we are actually discovering how intelligent many animals are. From corvids and a few other bird species manufacturing tools, to studies showing dolphins are more intelligent than dogs and may understand human language better than dogs, to those tik toks even of dogs using pre programmed buttons to communicate on levels of understanding fairly abstract concepts for them, to the discovery of polar bears planning ambushes of seals and walrus' using large heavy rocks and brown bears actually being able to count and understand numbers and their meanings as well as collecting various bits and baubles for purely aesthetic reasons that they keep to simply enjoy. This world is utterly fascinating and it never ceases to amaze.
Ravens and Crows have been found to not only use tools, but in some cases manufacture them, and learn trial and error. The best thing however is some were found teaching other members how to produce similar tools. They also have pretty advanced concepts of physics. Crows and Ravens have used human technology and basic understanding of it In Japan and a few other countries they have been found understanding traffic lights and placing nuts on roads for humans to break them with cars. a few apes have been found to be manufacturing tools. Its believed that the modern chimp is officially in the beginning stages of the Stone Age.
@@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent in person I once watched a crow pull a paper bag from a trash can and lay it flattened on the ground, then pull a full McDonald's bag from that same trash can and dump it out on the flattened paper bag. The crow then sorted through the contents from there careful to keep the food off the ground. It was all very strange to me to see an animal actively attempting to avoid dirt in it's good, and even more fascinating to see it go to such great and articulate lengths to do so.
Its been stated in the project that Dinosaur diversity declined significantly throught the Paleogene and Neogene climate events, causing many groups of Theropods, Sauropods, Marginocephalians and Thyrophorans to become extinct (or nearly so), while some other groups such as Hadrosaurs have declined significantly. That's what allowed Maniraptorans and Mammals to diversify into very diverse forms that occupy niches previously taken by other groups.
@@SuperYoshikong Avititan description: "A large browser found in the jungles of Southeast Asia, the avititan is as close to a sauropod as this world has (though it has some superficial similarities with the therizinosaurs of the mesozoic and the largely extinct Nothronychosaurs of the miocene)."
Sort of, a lot of prehistoric animals at the time were in decline, except for smaller creatures. As if a worldwide famine or something similar was happening, striking down larger animals, like a much more drawn out and subtle Great Dying.
I find the use of evolved claws on the forelimbs much more plausible than beaks, due to the difficulty in maintaining a stable grip. I think the pivot point in the beak would tend to be too small. Alternatively, the beak might evolve to be wider and better for gripping.
The 'spear-throwing device' is almost certainly a reference to the atlatl, a type of weapon developed as a precursor to the bow-and-arrow and used worldwide, with most recent use by the Mesoamerican civilizations against colonizing Spanish forces. It allowed the user to generate more force than simply throwing the projectile itself. It's honestly incredible the amount of thought that went into this!
I loved this! We sort of do have a bird in real life that uses spears. Shrikes will impale their prey on sharp sticks and branches. It doesn't seem as far of a stretch to imagine birds developing spears. This was a great video!
Yeah, some birds can even start forest fires, they pick up a pice of burning wood and trow it some were to start the fire, this scare the animals that are hiding on the area and those birds hunt them.
Some eagles would drop turtles against rocks to break their shells and eat the content. There is even that infamous legend that an eagle mistook the bald head of an ancient greek philosopher for a rock and threw the turtle against his head.
Aw yeah, CM Kosemen is finally getting the recognition he deserves. I hope y'all will be covering his Snaiad project sometime! It's a great piece of cladistic speculative evolution (ie. not just making up imaginary species, but tracing how they are related evolutionarily through diverging traits).
I’ really impressed by Kossemen’s versatility as an artist and as a speculative thinker. I have just recently discovered his work with “All Tomorrows”, and now I come here and find out he’s got an “All yesterdays” and a Dinosaurs project!
The person who made that Troodonite Dinosauroid was very much aware of his human centric design, and actively invited critique of it. But, well, you can't mention everything in 11 minutes :).
I'm not sure it isn't. It was designed with the idea that the humanoid shape is the only one with possible human-level intelligence, and it changed a few things it possibly shouldn't have, like the flat feet. But we don't know, and can't :). So I agree, it's not impossible. I'm not really an expert on the matter tho.
Not even lying, would've been fantastic if that's what actually occurred. To be honest the entire idea sounds like it'd make an interesting story/series
This artwork is genuinely fascinating and the concept equally so. But I just can’t get over how adorable these dudes are. They’re all just funky lil’ guys.
Imagine waking up in that alternate universe and literally the dinosaur secret service puts you up in some fancy ass hotel for the rest of your life and gives you everything you could ever want 😮
Ok, this was an extremely cool and fascinating video with an original take on the subject of dinosaurs, which I can never seem to get enough of, being a lifelong dino junkie. ( I was also quite relieved to realize that this in fact was NOT an educational video about hemorrhoid sufferers among the dinosaur community.)
What a refreshing channel. You grow fast and you deserve it, I’m telling you you’re gonna reach a million in no time. Amazing videos and narration thanks and keep it up ❤️❤️❤️
This may be science fiction but still it looks so realistic, not to mention the way they used real world things from bird's nests to them having high intelligence, I love smart dinosaurus
Dinosauroids is one of the most fascinating things I have heard of as a person who likes dinosaurs. Can you imagine if there was a portal linking a modern civilized dinosauroid world with the Jurassic Park universe?
I really love this video - these artists are amazing. I think one thing that really bothers me, is that the bodies of these dinosauroids look really, REALLY good. They have long, sharp beaks, a frame built for running, and wicked claws. They seem like their natural tools would be pretty efficient in a lot of the task that they are depicted using tools for. When humans started using tools, it was because we HAD too- our natural bodies weren't very good at much else than long distance running, thinking, and grasping things. I feel like these dinosauroids would never get sophisticated- if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I want a dinosauroid that looks like it would actually have some evolutionary pressure to create tools to be able to compete.
@@EmpRuler i believe it had two legs and two arms. it looked to be similar to therizinosaurus. The Birrin are a four legged two armed aliens from a completely different creator.
Something I think should be considered is that tools are only created or used when we don't have an appendage good enough for it. Humans created blades out of crushed rock because we packed claws and had long, precise arms. An animal with something wide and sharp on its face would probably opt for other technologies like agriculture before most tool use since the needs for hunting and defense is already there. Collecting seeds and potentially digging small canals would be simpler for a being with less dexterous limbs. From there tool use would likely emerge as more of a supplement to that process before it extends to hunting
My main criticism has to be reguarding them keeping their feathers. Through all of the depictions and scenarios it's made clear they've tamed fire, yet I imagine how hazardous it must be to have feathers in that situation.
This is really cool, but I feel like it’s a huge leap to go from basic wood and obsidian tools to intricate bronze weapons and armor. The amount of complex knowledge and craftsmanship that’s required for even basic bronze forging is immense, and seems well beyond realism for even these incredible creatures.
It's cool that the artist modeled these after corvids, but I actually imagine them becoming more parrot-like as they evolve. Dinosauroids could end up following a similar evolutionary path as humans did, where the ability to crack open animal bones and pick out the calorie-dense marrow inside was a key factor in developing intelligence. Pointy corvid beaks are great for stabbing and pecking, but not so great at cracking tough material or manipulating objects with much precision. Parrot beaks, on the other hand, are specifically designed for cracking open nut shells and delicately picking out the meat inside. Evolution for these creatures may end up favoring such a beak both for better access to calories and for tool manipulation. Here's TierZoo's parrot video for more info: ruclips.net/video/lLO5ecZXYdg/видео.html
There is one thing they could do to make it even better: explain which evolutionary structures propeled their social behaviours like forming tribes and such. For us, its mainly highly developed and refined control of facial muscles and vocal chords.
i LOVE thinking about this im so glad some folks smarter than me have given their speculations on it im obsessed w/ "what if dinosaurs kept evolving" its soo interesting
It's certainly a fun concept. Yet, I can't help but wonder what the impact of using such tools predicted in the illustrations would have on these bird-like dinosaurs' beaks. Sure they can be used for basic things, but something strenuous like lifting heavy objects like spears and furthermore using them forcefully would surely wear down the cartilage in their beaks and wouldn't be good for them. In terms of battle, they'd probably be better off using their talons. Perhaps crafting a weapon as PART of their beaks, an outer shell that both protects their beaks and makes them more deadly, that's held together kinda like a muzzle. And also the illustrations of these creatures painting using a feather they hold again with their beaks... These particular dinosaurs have eyes on the sides of their heads.. It would be awfully difficult to see what they were doing should they paint in this way. Anyway. Fun to think about. Very interesting.
I can see the eventual rise of something similar to the Greek city-states back during the Hellenic period. If not, then they take the path similar to the Mongol Empire in origin. You know, going from just a bunch of nomadic tribes to the rulers of the world's largest empire to ever existed.
Now i can only imagine in an alternative universe where there's a renaissance portrait of an anthropomorphic crow in a fancy suit and curved feathers on his head and small pair of glasses on his beak
The issue with a lot of these hypothetical humanlike non-humanoids is that one of our greatest strengths was our ability to run long distances and stay cool through sweating, and our ability to throw projectiles like spears… id love to see another body pattern that has similar capabilities in a different shape
T. rex was by no means a fast runner, but likely an endurance pursuer. It can still work. Heck, the theropod body plan avoids the multiple problems our body plan crashed face-first into, like the trouble of giving birth, the back pain from a sudden transition to bipedal stance, etc. they probably would’ve stayed cool by panting. Sure, it’s not as effective, but it still should work well enough.
this kinda triggers me, because the tech they use is extremely human influenced, which I see as an issue, because all human tech is designed for our very specific biomechanics. like, I totally believe that they might use spears if they saw hominids using them. but considering their main manipulator is a beak, I don't see it being a very popular weapon. they should have things more tailored to their own biomechanics. I think that the war masks would actually be *extremely* practical, though more as armor than a direct weapon. I think that do to their posture, and relatively short arms compared to humans, they would need to be far more cautious of their heads than hominids, because they either need to wield a weapon in their beak(which considering their neck structure likely won't be optimal) or need to get close enough to use their arms. I think they would usually prefer their arms for weapons over their beak, because they would probably be stronger, able to carry a heavier weapon, and hit harder with it even if his would mean giving up a bit of range and precision. while this wouldn't be worth it for hominids, we aren't nearly as front heavy as these bois appear to be. so I think they would likely prefer to armor their head with masks, and carry bigger, heavier weapons in their hands. I think more of their tech should also emphasize how they have very different manipulators, rather than just mimicking human tools. the current set up onlyt really makes sense if they are a post human species who sees humanity as a race of mythic heroes or something.
@@lepusistlich6930 ok, look up videos of crows using sticks. Do you honestly think that when they are holding a stick, they have the same level of strength and precision as if you were holding one?
I also thought of them equiping their feet with extended-stone/steel claws and mainly using them to deal high ammounts of damage. Just like the Legend of the Guardians's Owls.
That would be sick, although maybe in this universe the Burrin home world as been altered too, so that way the Birrin never evolved and some species that became extinct in their world survived instead of going extinct and then eventually gave rise to a sapient species, just like with the Dinosauroids
I followed them on deviant art awhile back. I remember when trying to make the atlatl work they were making them more upright which they were thinking would make them too humanoid or something (I remember because that was the only time I heard the phrase "ape chauvinist") but a guy in the comments said something about attaching the spear thrower to their tails and illustrated what it might look like. That's always stuck in my mind. Glad All Tomorrows and now this seem to be getting more attention, I was really into them.
This is such a cool concept, the idea of dinosaurs growing human-like intelligence and forming their own cultures is just fascinating to me. I am surprised that nobody has done animation or film on this. I mean just imagine a series in the style of "walking with dinosaurs" following the evolution of Dinosauroids as they go from simple dinosaurs too. what they are at the end of the video. Hell maybe they could do something completely diffrent but I would love to see a Dinosauroids series or movie.
I think the beak of bird should be more thick and little bit big for picking rocks and to create art work. They should have good grip on things so that they can make such delicate things.
That was my only pet peeve about this. Either the dinos should have beaks more adapted for tool manipulation, or they should craft their tools to be way more comfortable and adapted for beaks than these have shown.
I hope they allow people to write with this setting, its such a lovely idea for it to go the way of After Man (the company has the rights, but aren’t using them, just piled and forgotten)
Using spears to fish or hunt looks unlikely when they already have beaks of similar size. They would also need more strength than they have to carve the stone, and I doubt they would use armor or clothing that would negatively affect the possibility of flight. Evolution by natural selection does not jump so suddenly, it reaches local maxima of adaptability and that makes human-like evolution impossible. In reality, benefits like flying and using their beak will not be compromised for the hundreds of thousands of years needed to evolve efficient spear and clothing use. These authors suffer from a similar mistake than Dale Russel: they are anthropologizing intelligence. Just civilizationally instead of corporally, taking our ancient history as inspiration. I believe intelligence would evolve in a more unique way. You have to take abilities already present in reptiles or birds like the crows and evolve intelligence from there, considering each little step must be more beneficial than the last. Today they can, for example, drop nuts in highways so cars crack them open. If they are capable of that type of intelligence, imagine them developing further this "dropping" intelligence, learning about the use of different materials to drop and learning how to drop with angles, using this to carve and build bases or buildings. They'd never get to develop thumbs and probably never actually make tools and weapons the way we do. Art would also not be inside caves or made with feathers, but in open fields and made by dropping materials. Birds communicate by sound, so yes, they could develop a sort of complex language. That allows for society and potentially specialization of labor. The type of society would not look like ours though, because key aspects of the nuclear family are different and others are similar. Which of these species are monogamous? How is the egg hatching process? Who brings the food? Where do they bring it from? Questions like these will shape the type of society, type of hierarchy, type of tools used... Super interesting topic though. I think it can be scientifically revised and become very revealing the more people discuss about it
Using spears to fish or hunt looks unlikely when they already have beaks of similar size. Fishing? Perhaps. Hunting.... Do you know what the advantage of a spear is? It's not just that it's pointy. It's also that it's *long*. A beak is directly in front of the head, so to peck, a creature must expose its head. This is a considerable risk, to say the least. This is on top of the fact a long weapon allows you to threaten something at a greater distance than your actual body can reach. (Relatedly, this is why the beak-masks are deemed 'not terribly practical') "They would also need more strength than they have to carve the stone, and" Not actually sure on their size, but with a chisel and not too much strength, you can carve stone. "I doubt they would use armor or clothing that would negatively affect the possibility of flight." Now you're the one being essentialist - only a small minority of dinosaurs actually developed flight, or really, developed toward flight - just because these have feathers doesn't make them fliers. Bats also have fur, after all. They're not actually corvid ancestors. Which is to say - they don't need to worry about the possibility of flight because they can't, their forelimbs being adapted for tool use and not, emphatically, flight. The first time a dinosauroid takes flight, it will be in an airplane. (Or a balloon, but... you get the idea.) Today they can, for example, drop nuts in highways so cars crack them open. If they are capable of that type of intelligence, imagine them developing further this "dropping" intelligence, learning about the use of different materials to drop and learning how to drop with angles, using this to carve and build bases or buildings. Slight problem. There are no cars. So, as you say, that step cannot occur. The ability to stack rocks is a start on constructing things, and to some extent, many animals already do it. It's also not that different from how brick/stone buildings are built. And the development of tool creation from tool use is a... well, it's hardly *simple*, but one can definitely imagine a species evolving from using debris as tools to potentially shaping and combining objects to make them more useful tools - for instance, picking leaves off a stick before using it to dip for ants. Their intelligence might develop in pursuit of greater efficiency in this pursuit, becoming more and more capable of abstract thinking, of contemplating 'is there something here that I can use' but 'can I make something that I can use from the things here/that I remember/that probably exist nearby/that I could make from other things I know about'. "They'd never get to develop thumbs" But... they already have thumbs? They have opposing claws on their forelimbs. "Art would also not be inside caves or made with feathers, but in open fields and made by dropping materials." Petroglyphs tend to last longer. Rock art is certainly a possibility, but I don't see any particular reason they *wouldn't* make cave art. Or paint on skins, or whatever.
Better locomotion of hands and opposite thumbs can easily evolve. Because we don't live on trees humans evolve better locomotion and opposite thumbs than other living apes. There could be possible to evolve in those theropods.
dude the dino we were looking at doesn't fly. so it's not far off that they would make armor when hunting. also the guy that was reading the book. they didn't use the evolve as a what if, not for something serious. it is fantasy after all. anything goes in a fantasy.
@@basedeltazero714 spears are only good for humans. 1. spears would have to be held in the arms; you're not telling me a tiny bird like creature can deliver any kind of efficient jab with its mouth. unless it has a serrated beak (for a better grip), that stupid stick is sliding out of its mouth. 2. spears being in the arms makes their range genuinely useless. now theyre big, theyre longer, theyre a little more unwieldly, and you risk slamming the pommel into your chest while you try and hit something while running (because theyre not standing still while they jab you. thats just not how any raptor type creature would hunt. that type of shit only works for humans, again. they will use the speed- they have it, humans dont.) 3. theyre fighting fast moving tyrannoraptors. no, theyre not fucking using the beak held stick. because itll pick them up and snap their back open. its literally useless. 4. dude i dont think these guys can chisel rock. sorry. you know how a chisel works, right? you take an item, place it on a stone, and smack it. seems simple right? except 1. their arms are arms, yes, but theyre not good arms, especially for their body shape. they still cant hold things the way humans do, i'm not accepting that kind of deduction from anyone. there is no way they're holding a chisel or a hammer as well as a human does. 2. hold the chisel and smack it. first off, they cant hold it, second off, they cant smack it either, because the movement is too awkward for one bird-raptor to try to carry out well. lets say they collaborate (making the chance of figuring out this method even smaller, but whatever) and someone hits the chisel with the hammer ... how do they MAKE the chisel AND the hammer...?? a hammer can be an improvised rock, yes, but what about the chisel? chisel is just a rock and stick of your choice, so i guess that works, but it sucks and probably wont work, just because beating a rock against a rock using a rock isn't that effective. you could say you beat a flat edged rock against a rock using a rock, but that has the same likely hood of working (literally zero). i highly doubt these dudes will ever use chisels until they get to metalworking or specifically perfecting natural items for them to use, which is not easy and definitely not happening accidentally. im saying it requires more thought than they actually have to copy humans in their style of evolution. most of my points are just "the anatomy of a bird, no matter the god damn fingers, is not allowing for this." and thats the reason crows are not using spears. they can use sticks, but theyre not killing animals larger than them with sticks, because thats just not how their god damn necks work. and the reason most of my points are literally the same thing is because the fucking author decided to make birds that copy literally everything humans do. its not creative if its just humans plastered onto raptors. and to anybody about to say "they'll evolve to do these things" no they probably wont, because they'll just find a more efficient way to do something way more efficient. .. like running, digging, flying, or pack hunting using their actual beaks. i love these animals, i hate everything about them.
@@3u-n3ma_r1-c0 Spears are extremely effective for essentially anything that can hold and thrust even halfway decently. It's kind of the universal weapon. 1: It's... entirely possible they would have serrated beaks? That's a thing that exists? And 'delivering an efficient jab' is A: a thing bird necks are designed to do, and B: literally what you're arguing. But I agree holding things in the mouth probably isn't terribly practical. 2: Okay, so the arms aren't as long as a human's. That doesn't mean they're useless or weak, it is possible to pack quite a lot of power into short limbs. Perhaps these creatures evolved to leap on prey and rip at it with their forelimbs as well as their beak. It would be quite reasonable to speculate that those limbs are capable of a quick, powerful thrust, the kind of thrust that would be ideal for use with a spear. Their main disadvantage would be that they can't throw particularly well, which is a quite significant disadvantage. They also can't as easily pass items across the chest (though they certainly could) or wield weapons in two hands, which would make _really_ long spears. That said... the equivalent of a 6' spear wouldn't be particularly difficult for them to carry. Larger spears are likely doable but somewhat less advantageous as they can't really swing a polearm. No, they would not need to carry the entire spear forward of their body. They'd carry it alongside their chest, you know, like spears are used. That said... they probably are faster. So that's an advantage. The idea of using it like a lance, as you seem to be imagining, is... somewhat feasible, but since they're not mounted they can't actually couch it, but sure, you could get a lot of force out of it. But that's not the only way to use a spear, and it's not even the only way to use a spear while moving, as it turns out that use of hand weapons doesn't actually impede foot movement. They can harry and swarm larger creatures, distracting and jabbing them as they circle, darting away from any counterattacks. This is... probably how raptor-like creatures already hunt, except they're now doing it from a longer, safer range, allowing them to tackle more dangerous prey and/or hunt more reliably. This doesn't actually prevent them from using more sophisticated, dare I say humanlike hunting techniques, like chasing animals into traps. 3: That's... more of an argument against hunting without the spears. The additional reach lets them stay out of range of retaliation. If the beak held stick *works*, then... well, it also gives additional range, because now in order to grab them, the target needs to reach across not only the length of the attacker's beak, but also the spear. This is rather basic. 4: The motion would be different, since they can't easily raise their arms over their heads. Personally, I would suggest that their arms are made primarily for thrusting and raking, so they could simply chisel directly, without the need for a hammer. That said, they could plausibly hold down the chisel with one hand and hammer with the beak. You know, like birds do to crack shells, for instance. They could even do this with two individuals - it's... uh. Not implausible that they work cooperatively, that's kind of the point of being highly intelligent. Chipping rocks against other rocks until they're pointy is literally a thing that people do. Rocks have various hardnesses, fracture points, and numerous other ways in which they can be broken down. There's also bone as an option, which is more workable yet in some cases more durable than rock. You're basically arguing against the concept of paleolithic tools. Also this: "i highly doubt these dudes will ever use chisels until they get to metalworking or specifically perfecting natural items for them to use, which is not easy and definitely not happening accidentally. " So. Never. You're never 'getting to metalworking' if you can't chisel. And *yes the whole point is that perfecting natural items is not easy*. "and thats the reason crows are not using spears. they can use sticks, but theyre not killing animals larger than them with sticks, because thats just not how their god damn necks work." Well, they don't have hands, for one. For another, they aren't intelligent enough to make a spear. A significant portion of this is _because_ they'd have difficulty actually making use of it, so there's no purpose in evolving higher intelligence. The intellect to make tools and the dexterity to use those tools are overwhelmingly likely to co-evolve, because they're each far, far less useful without the other. "and to anybody about to say "they'll evolve to do these things" no they probably wont, because they'll just find a more efficient way to do something way more efficient. .. like running, digging, flying, or pack hunting using their actual beaks." Well, yes. That's getting at why human levels of intelligence aren't, apparently, commonplace. Because it's incredibly costly from a metabolic perspective, and there are other local maxima that discourage its development. There's a reason intelligence emerged from apes - because they already have good dexterity, originally for climbing, and they have good cognition due to their need to spot food and navigate their environment. These traits were able to synergize with each other, allowing for an advantage that either one could not, and further developed by the resulting success. As this combination became more and more successful, it became more and more overwhelmingly important, and proto-humans evolved in ways that encouraged it, even though this meant giving up certain other advantages. Observing the species that are quite intelligent, but *do not* develop, to put it briefly, civilization... Corvids are one such group. They're quite clever, but they're limited by being birds. The first burden of this is the metabolic toll of flight, but also difficulty of tool use due to the lack of opposable thumbs. If you took a crow and made it human-level intelligent, what would it gain? Greater specialization of labor? Well, first off, that's something that came later in human history, but okay, how? It could potentially hunt more efficiently, but too what degree does this matter? A bare-handed human is hardly a better hunter than a chimpanzee. Fire and cooking? Well... maybe, but how would it make fire? Tool use? Now we come back to the problem. Its body design makes it difficult to actually use tools, so it has to make do with tools it can use, one way or another. And remember that intelligence is *metabolically expensive*, so every bit of intelligence it can't put to use is a tremendous detriment. If it were more able to use tools, however... then it might actually be able to make use of the enhanced intelligence. Clawed wings, though they are not as condusive to flight, would allow it to more easily manipulate tools, and even without anything like an actual spear, one might imagine... perhaps, it sharpening sticks, weighting them, and dropping them on relatively larger prey, just as an example. Manipulating fire with, at least, greater ease, maybe even being able to start fires. All of this would mean that it was tremendously advantageous to focus on tool use over being better at flight. ... and these speculative creatures aren't actually corvids, but a descendant of proto-avian dinosaurs with black feathers. You will note that archaeopteryx *does* have claws on its wings. Given that we are positing an intelligent creature it is reasonable to assume that it has features conducive to intelligence, and will use and expand on those features to the greatest extent possible. That it has, in fact, evolved in a suitable path, even if that path is not the most likely, and there certainly are local maxima - seeming large local maxima - that a given species is more likely to fall into, but for the thought experiment to work it has not, and instead developed along a path that allows it to ultimately develop civilization, and for that, the ability to *actually use* tools is essential, trumphing flight, speed, strength, anything. If it did not use tools and instead developed the ability to fly, it would be a different animal. Fundamentally the creature you are describing is a wolf. A pack hunter, lives in family groups, fast, clever, and utterly unable to use tools. A fearsome and deadly predator, well adapted to its environment... and currently maintained in existence merely because the species that *did* go all in on intelligence thinks it would be mean to kill them *all*.
I think it would be more realistic for the dinosauroids to have the more common dinosaur snouts instead of bird beaks, with large lips to better control the tools they use
I think for the amount of sophistication of their armor and tools, their hands and arms have been underdeveloped physically. Way too much focus on beak use that is just clumsy compared to hands. And if they were to pursue a beak heavy use of tools then those tools and uses would reflect that.
I feel old saying this, but I remember older records of Kosemen's early developments of his Dinosauroid concept, where the spirit creature and Black Thing were one and the same, which _fascinated_ me as a kid. I wondered, what _was_ the "Black Thing"? What was its significance to the Dinosauroids? Was it real or simply a creature from their folklore? Kosemen splitting it into an unnamed spirit and a flesh and blood predator isn't a bad thing imo, though I _do_ wish the spirit creature had a name/title. I'd also LOVE IT if _this_ concept got a book or something.
Is it too much speculation to say that the spirit creature is STILL The Black Thing? I mean, Consider human folklore. Even the more modern stuff, we see nebulous spirit monsters that vaguely resemble real animals that we might have some reason to fear; The Black Dog (The Grim, the Black Shuck, etc.) comes to mind. Tigers and whales and hyenas and serpents, all of these show up in the shadows of our fearful nights (though for whales that's a mite more contextual than serpents, I admit.) It may well be that the physical Black Thing is considered a kind of dark avatar of the spiritual Black Thing, much as snakes were analogous to The Serpent. In time, the physical Black Thing will become more conceptually distinct from the spiritual Black Thing, until the physical depiction is little more than symbolism for the force of evil the spiritual depiction stands for.
Something about their spear usage rubs me the wrong way.It makes sense theyd make use of their beaks like humans used their teeth for tool work in the past.But using a spear directly in their mouths for straight thrusts? So if it meets any resistance and slips it just slips through their beak into the back of their skull? Or shatters their beak as it slips through. Wouldnt it make more ergonomic sense to be used in their claws or a radical different beak holding spear design like a branch with a natural 90 decree angled branch for holding.
The presence of bronze tools is interesting, as it implies they've reached a level of sophistication of worldwide trade. Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, and they tend to be found far from one another. Our ancestors had to trade with their neighbors to import tin, largely around the Mediterranean. It would be interesting to see them building wonders similar to those of our equivalent age like the pyramids.
Good observation! Makes you wonder what Dinosauroid megastructures would look like
@@CuriousArchive i hope they don't look like bird houses or chicken coops
It makes me wonder how the heck they're mining for the copper and tin. And then the smelting . . . I dunno, I want to see some explanations for that.
@@pompe221 I think they might use arm extensions like the one at 7:54 except instead of a spear it's a pickaxe or sum.
@@pompe221 That might mean that they even mine into rocks and cliffside perhaps with tools tgat attach to their face or that thye can grab and carry
I wonder if they would have various feather-styles like we have hair-styles? Like maybe plucking certain areas and letting others grow out?
Its possible. Some birds in real life actually coats feathers in pigments for looks
Nice concept, I could see that fitting right in with this world
@@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent I know bearded vultures do it but what are the others?
@@ddpzzp553 even more bearded vultures
Or like many monks shave their hair... imagine if some of them rip all their feathers out, looking like a naked chicken for religion XD ... hilarious but also probably a thing.
Things like C.M. Kosemen's Dinosauroids or Alex Ries' Birrin are what we need more of when it comes to fictional civilized species. The lack of a human-like body plan often results in much more interesting designs for tools, clothing, etc.
That's true. Who says in order to be intelligent, you need a human body plan? Also the dinosauroids are technically people in their own context if you think about it.
Don't forget the Eosapiens! Big blue bags of gas with vacuum cleaner hoses for arms, such a delightfully alien yet pretty logical body plan for a sapient tool using species!
I'm currently working on a world where insects internalise their exoskeleton, become dominant and eventually multiple species become sapient. Because this is ~270mil years into the future, Pangea Ultima has formed and because of that there are less invasive species (less/no continental isolation), so this is the reason multiple species manage to fight/coexist. Human culture becomes a big thing for both religious and practical reasons, I imagine them waging archeological wars for our fossils, so they can reverse-engineer our tech.
I think they make aliens to look like humans because of the audience. They want to relate, so Hollywood uses the human body as a template to make aliens. Remember they are telling a story, they're not telling you how aliens could possibly look like from a different planet.
@@MrFossil367ab45gfyth though i actually think the idea of animals evolving into more human as they gain sapience is a idea that does have some merit
Return to monke? No.
Speculate to dinosauroid? Yes.
Return to dinomonke
we must proceed to dino
based
This is what would've happened if primates never evolved, basically we would've never evolved. But these dinosauroids would be the people who would've inhabited Earth.
I can’t believe you rejected monke
Speculative biology and speculative evolution are such under appreciated fields as a writer these studies have helped create and explore so many new ideas
Indeed
I'd imagine that dinosaurs with feathers would either pluck their feathers out or be extremely careful around fire because feathers burn very very well... I know this because we had to keep domestic turkeys away from family gatherings that had bonfires because one year one Turkey managed to get its tail set on fire when it was doing that Turkey strut thing near a fire and a spark landed on its tail...
@영노 yeah and sacrifice the young birds for their owl dinosaur god
They will just invent scissors
@@brawmankerlexterminateurde860 I suppose some religion will stick to plucking, rather than scissoring...
Maybe they will wear clothes
They might slowly loose feathers when they evolve just us humans loosing fur.
This sounds like the coolest thing ever.
I want to live in the timeline where the Birrin, Dinosaurids and humans coexist
Birbs are just the mammals 2.0 they only need a humanoid body and they will just be totally like us
It's one of my favorite speculative worlds, for sure
All tomorrows and all yesterdays
@@diegodeluquev1433 So do I. It's definitely the kind of world I would love to live in
Man, imagine living in a world where several species of animals resemble massive humanoid creatures
Racism will be increase
@@brawmankerlexterminateurde860
Yeah but like, they'd still be animals like the giant birdosaurs in this video. They just look really close to us
We did live in that world for a while. Then we wiped out the competition either via mating with them, killing them or eating them. Humanity are a very aggressive species. Although it may have to do more with our past of being preyed upon.
A intelligent carnivore species might not be so bent in extermination of competition
@@brawmankerlexterminateurde860 lmao
I played Skyrim and already see
8:00 That looks amazing. I love how they have mammal faces on their masks, like their version of a fearsome dragon.
2010s: Speculative and alternate future and histories
2020s: Speculative and alternate evolution
2030 will be about reality lol
@@ezedoesit98 Only God knows.
@@zerogproductions9144 2010 philosophers: what if god is just a edgy teenager 2020: what if god forced us to become meat cubes
@@satan1841 all tomorrows was created in 2008
@@whereiswilloww yeah but it picked up in the last two years
This channel truly is a gift! It’s almost like this channel is following all the theoretical study’s I’ve found interesting such as the birrin, all today’s all yesterday’s and now this. You honestly didn’t even know that there was a book about this. I figured it was just a few pieces of art from a few different people. I would have never imagined that the two separate dinosourids in this video weee from the same source due to their physiological differences.
Yeah. It's like the perfect channel
Ik right, It’s so underrated
The spear throwing device is called an atlatl or spear thrower.
Very much correct. Not so unique - tho admittedly inventive.
We call him Oog.
@@typhoidtyphoon Actually, it's more unique than that. Because the avisapiens lack strong throwing muscles like humans do (they never had an arboreal existence using their forelimbs for climing), they aren't really adept at using things like atl-atls, so they made some kind of hinged mechanism to transfer power through. I forget exactly how it worked, but it's on Kosemen's blog, I think.
There's a similar thing in Australia called a woomera.
Nope, they're have a capability to throw that stick, they have short arms, they can throw a rock more accurate than a gorilla.
It is on they're muscles, they're muscles cannot twitch so much, if that happened, they're hollow bones could easily injured.
Speculative biology is quickly becoming my favourite genre. I absolutely loved this. I think it's my favourite to date. Thanks for sharing!
I don't see why Troodon descendants would necessarily evolve beaks.
Also I must call into question the feasibility of beak-held weaponry. Using twigs as tools is fine for a crow, trying to stab a large dinosaur with a long pointy pole that you hold with your mouth, not so much. It would be incredibly awkward and potentially dangerous to try create enough force with your neck muscles and head to make a spear like that threatening. And these dinosauroids did not evolve from birds, who started to use tools with their beaks and then retroactively evolved hands, they evolved from Troodon-like theropods who already had hands (though pretty different from ours). It's more likely that they'd try to use their already present hands for tool use and also for the hands to evolve to be more useful for such activity (or the other way around, those dinosauroids who had hand mutations that better facilitated tool use passed on their genes, leading to 'better' and 'better' hands).
Unless it developed powered flight, it wouldn't be that birdlike
Agreed. The concept looks very underdeveloped from morphological standpoint. If they insist on the animals using their mouth/beak as manipulator, it stands to reason that body part would also evolve to support that function better.
Examples from the top of my head:
1. Prehensile tongue, maybe forked
2. Prehensile lips
3. Differently shaped beaks
4. Beak modifications
5. More flexible lower jaw
6. Proturding eyes to see objects being held by the beak
Turning a door handle is one example, dinosaurs were unable to turn their wrists, which means that they'd have to use some other way to open a door
@@hunterneitzel3012 They probably wouldn't have doors that would require anything more than pushing/pulling, that is if they had doors at all.
Man, one thing that stop them to use they're hand while holding a stick is they're bones, they have hollow bones, they're neck bones are much little bit stronger.
You see, mammals didn't need to worry that a hand will be injured because of throwing or stabbing something with a stick because our bones are dense, not hollow.
Those birds have hollow bones, that kind of bones is risk of getting injuries, even that type of bones made dinosaurs grow large, the disadvantage is, that will break when overusing the muscles.
I was wondering when you were going to cover this. This was what got me into Koseman’s work.
I'm wondering when he'll cover Dinotopia.
The level of dedication and time put into these alternate reality speculations Is completely off the charts
Trey the Explainer made a video of what could be found in the distant past and at the very end he mentioned the possibility of intelligent pre-human organisms. One of them was this dinosaur and a sentient cephalopod. I’m dying to see the latter fleshed out.
The sentient cephalopod rings a bell. I think Trey was reviewing "The Future Is Wild."
There's a webcomic called "Dawn of Time" that had an Arc about dinosaurs very similar to dinosauroids that were worshipping the MC, I found the idea kind of cool. Glad there's someone who did something very similar and expanded upon it.
Mm.. lemme check that recommendation
Am I the only one who thinks this would make the best dinosaur game ever?
Imagine a multiplayer game where you protect your Dino-tribe or an RTS like Civ from cave-dinosaurs to space-dinosaurs
Sounds like it could be like Far Cry Primal, but the large Dinosaurs in a Stone Age world gives off Horizon Zero Dawn vibes (I know those were robots technically but they resembled Dinosaurs)
speculative non-humanoid intelligent species seems to be a growing trend on this channel
and a good thing to. because we were apes and that's why we have a shape we got now. other creatures should stick to there own shapes. no character HAVE to be human shape just to prove they're real smart just to relate with other smart creatures or aliens. it's overrated and dumb to think about.
I think humans developed their technological intelligence, because when they entered the savannah, there were animals who were much better adapted to this ecosystem, because they have already lived for millions of years in it. Our ancestors were kind of vulnerable and we are still vulnerable. We haven't the thick skin of lions or elephants or the great muscle power of other animals. That's why we began to use tools, cooperation and language. As we went this path, we lost even more raw muscle power, because our muscles became more fine coordinated to use and create tools with our hands. Those dinosauroids on the other hand, don't look like they would depend on much tools and technology. They have claws, seem to be pretty fast on foot and strong. I think they woudn't have to develop such kind of intelligence in order to survive. That's why i think, they would have a wolf-like, predatory intelligence, but not human-like. But maybe that's human-centric.
Crows and many species parrots have ape level of intelligence so why wouldn't those dinosaurs have it.
Umm.yeah.
😕…
It is human-centric we were also very fucking fast and could run and hunt anything we wanted but for some reason we still evolved to be smart. And we have teeth like they have claws so why would we need sticks to hunt with? Because it works better a small intelligent dinosaur could easily start evolving to be intelligent like humans
@@Taikuriketsuppi humans aren’t “very fucking fast”, what humans have as an advantage over other mammals is the fact that we sweat, whereas furry mammals more often than not have to dissipate heat through breathing, meaning early humans could chase prey for far longer than many other animals, there are still some tribes in Africa which hunt this way and will literally wait until the prey drops from exhaustion. Humans don’t have muzzles meaning biting something is comparatively to other animals very hard, our mouth isn’t a tool like it is for other animals and we also are much more susceptible to diseases we could potentially ingest if we had to put literally everything in our mouths to carry it, or use it. By comparisons dinosaurs were very resistant to infections like modern reptiles, this has to do with the higher percentage of serum in reptilian blood when compared to mammalian, hence why many fossils show signs of healed wounds which would have been fatal on other animals. It is also extremely disadvantageous for us to use our mouths as weapons again because of our body plan, you need to be extremely close to your prey potentially putting you in harms way, hence why the most ancient weapon of all is the spear, which can produce deadly force whilst keeping the user safe, the original comment does have a point, whilst I wholeheartedly believe that human-like body structure is not necessary for intelligent evolution, these speculative designs retain far too many natural features which they could use and wouldn’t warrant the need for tools.
Also this video forgot to mention that the tests conducted by the university on those crows were controlled tests with the crow having previously been introduced ti the problem, there is another one such experiment where the crow had already been taught how to solve a puzzle then they just figured out that’s what they had to do to get the prize, these weren’t random birds that suddenly figured out how to get to the food prize, yeah they’re very intelligent animals but they’re not Hawking birds.
Who says these dinosauroids did not went through a similar process to humans? I think they are more adapted to their niche than us humans but who says another species wasnt even more so and forced them to get creative?
Planets of the Apes(Humans): NO
Planets of the Birds(Dinosors): Yes
Funnily enough, on this branch timeline there does exist a marsupial species that’s very similar to earth apes, and has great potential to evolve intelligence
@@lochness5524 , let's hope if that does happen, these two races would get along with each other.
Looks at crows suspiciously
@@MrFossil367ab45gfyth we’d have to consider the possibility that there would exist a major language barrier though. Mammals have very different vocal chords compared to non-avian Dinosaurs, so I’d imagine their forms of communication would be so distinct it be impossible to form a language bridge. But I could be wrong, of course
@@lochness5524 it's possible the non avian dinosaur communicate with us because they have intelligent like human they can type to talk to us
I'm like, 80% sure that crows and ravens are most of the way there in our own timeline
Video states crows use simple tools, but the reality is more fascinating - some species actually _manufacture_ them, not just pick up a stick off the ground. Not even apes do that.
The cool thing is we are actually discovering how intelligent many animals are. From corvids and a few other bird species manufacturing tools, to studies showing dolphins are more intelligent than dogs and may understand human language better than dogs, to those tik toks even of dogs using pre programmed buttons to communicate on levels of understanding fairly abstract concepts for them, to the discovery of polar bears planning ambushes of seals and walrus' using large heavy rocks and brown bears actually being able to count and understand numbers and their meanings as well as collecting various bits and baubles for purely aesthetic reasons that they keep to simply enjoy.
This world is utterly fascinating and it never ceases to amaze.
Ravens and Crows have been found to not only use tools, but in some cases manufacture them, and learn trial and error. The best thing however is some were found teaching other members how to produce similar tools.
They also have pretty advanced concepts of physics.
Crows and Ravens have used human technology and basic understanding of it
In Japan and a few other countries they have been found understanding traffic lights and placing nuts on roads for humans to break them with cars.
a few apes have been found to be manufacturing tools. Its believed that the modern chimp is officially in the beginning stages of the Stone Age.
I actually think the same!
@@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent in person I once watched a crow pull a paper bag from a trash can and lay it flattened on the ground, then pull a full McDonald's bag from that same trash can and dump it out on the flattened paper bag. The crow then sorted through the contents from there careful to keep the food off the ground. It was all very strange to me to see an animal actively attempting to avoid dirt in it's good, and even more fascinating to see it go to such great and articulate lengths to do so.
This is one of the coolest things i've ever seen. The inner kid in me would've really enjoyed this back in the day.
What a blast from the past, I remember finding this on deviantart
some of the tools and tech are drawn as if they were made to be wielded by hands and not beaks, still cool tho
Roy and Kosemen's Dinosauroids still posses dexterous hands, so its unreasonable some tools are mostly for manual use.
ruclips.net/video/OQy4CPOFitE/видео.html
Here you see why. It’s a Kösemen video
Dromaeosaurs do have hands
Considering that pterosaurs are in decline,I’d imagine ornithopods,ceratopsians and sauropods are also very much in decline
Its been stated in the project that Dinosaur diversity declined significantly throught the Paleogene and Neogene climate events, causing many groups of Theropods, Sauropods, Marginocephalians and Thyrophorans to become extinct (or nearly so), while some other groups such as Hadrosaurs have declined significantly. That's what allowed Maniraptorans and Mammals to diversify into very diverse forms that occupy niches previously taken by other groups.
@@miquelescribanoivars5049 oooh ok 👍
@@miquelescribanoivars5049 Where can I see those statements?
@@SuperYoshikong Avititan description: "A large browser found in the jungles of Southeast Asia, the avititan is as close to a sauropod as this world has (though it has some superficial similarities with the therizinosaurs of the mesozoic and the largely extinct Nothronychosaurs of the miocene)."
Sort of, a lot of prehistoric animals at the time were in decline, except for smaller creatures. As if a worldwide famine or something similar was happening, striking down larger animals, like a much more drawn out and subtle Great Dying.
I find the use of evolved claws on the forelimbs much more plausible than beaks, due to the difficulty in maintaining a stable grip. I think the pivot point in the beak would tend to be too small.
Alternatively, the beak might evolve to be wider and better for gripping.
The 'spear-throwing device' is almost certainly a reference to the atlatl, a type of weapon developed as a precursor to the bow-and-arrow and used worldwide, with most recent use by the Mesoamerican civilizations against colonizing Spanish forces. It allowed the user to generate more force than simply throwing the projectile itself. It's honestly incredible the amount of thought that went into this!
It also makes more sense, because dinosaur arms and hands were limited in their flexibility, making a bow and arrow type of tool very impractical.
Can we get a video game with creatures from speculative zoology books? They would be interesting enemies in an RPG.
yesss
Why enemies? I wanna be friends with them!
yep
A game called spore exists lol, although it’s not really About speculative zoology it’s the closest thing we have right now.
Man would be the final boss haha
I loved this! We sort of do have a bird in real life that uses spears. Shrikes will impale their prey on sharp sticks and branches. It doesn't seem as far of a stretch to imagine birds developing spears. This was a great video!
Yeah, some birds can even start forest fires, they pick up a pice of burning wood and trow it some were to start the fire, this scare the animals that are hiding on the area and those birds hunt them.
Some eagles would drop turtles against rocks to break their shells and eat the content. There is even that infamous legend that an eagle mistook the bald head of an ancient greek philosopher for a rock and threw the turtle against his head.
This is the most scientific fanfiction I’ve ever seen
Aw yeah, CM Kosemen is finally getting the recognition he deserves. I hope y'all will be covering his Snaiad project sometime! It's a great piece of cladistic speculative evolution (ie. not just making up imaginary species, but tracing how they are related evolutionarily through diverging traits).
I was your 647 subscriber, and I alredy knew you would soon have 70k subs. Congrats!
Awesome, thank you!
@@CuriousArchive i love your videos btw
I’ really impressed by Kossemen’s versatility as an artist and as a speculative thinker. I have just recently discovered his work with “All Tomorrows”, and now I come here and find out he’s got an “All yesterdays” and a Dinosaurs project!
The person who made that Troodonite Dinosauroid was very much aware of his human centric design, and actively invited critique of it. But, well, you can't mention everything in 11 minutes :).
I still think is a viable desing
I'm not sure it isn't.
It was designed with the idea that the humanoid shape is the only one with possible human-level intelligence, and it changed a few things it possibly shouldn't have, like the flat feet.
But we don't know, and can't :). So I agree, it's not impossible. I'm not really an expert on the matter tho.
He invited critique of it and he got just that in this video. What's your point :)?
@@typhoidtyphoon
Yeah, why not? Evolution has Made weirder things
@@1112-m6p :D
Not even lying, would've been fantastic if that's what actually occurred.
To be honest the entire idea sounds like it'd make an interesting story/series
This artwork is genuinely fascinating and the concept equally so. But I just can’t get over how adorable these dudes are. They’re all just funky lil’ guys.
Someone need to give CM Kosemen a fat contract so he can write the next big book in fantasy. This man’s imagination is incredible.
I love these so much! Incredible content incredible channel.
Thanks, glad you like them!
No lire ther was the kT event at the very end of the certacus
Meanwhile in an alternate universe “Humans” explained | speculative biology
Imagine waking up in that alternate universe and literally the dinosaur secret service puts you up in some fancy ass hotel for the rest of your life and gives you everything you could ever want 😮
I remember when u had 500 subs and i said I can’t believe u don’t have 100k subs and know ur almost there congrats man!
Haha thank you, I appreciate it!
@@CuriousArchive np!
Wait a minute… do you follow him at that sub count too?
@@user-hp7ih8tf3y yes
I love your videos! Keep up the great content, I wish you luck on the road to 100k!
Ok, this was an extremely cool and fascinating video with an original take on the subject of dinosaurs, which I can never seem to get enough of, being a lifelong dino junkie.
( I was also quite relieved to realize that this in fact was NOT an educational video about hemorrhoid sufferers among the dinosaur community.)
This needs to be adapted into a graphic novel or an animated series.
Birb animased series
If it's something similar like prehistoric planet yes i would watch it in a heartbeat
What a refreshing channel. You grow fast and you deserve it, I’m telling you you’re gonna reach a million in no time. Amazing videos and narration thanks and keep it up ❤️❤️❤️
This may be science fiction but still it looks so realistic, not to mention the way they used real world things from bird's nests to them having high intelligence, I love smart dinosaurus
I really like this one, it's much more worldbuilding than pure speculative biology, which is really entertaining!
Dinosauroids is one of the most fascinating things I have heard of as a person who likes dinosaurs. Can you imagine if there was a portal linking a modern civilized dinosauroid world with the Jurassic Park universe?
I really love this video - these artists are amazing. I think one thing that really bothers me, is that the bodies of these dinosauroids look really, REALLY good. They have long, sharp beaks, a frame built for running, and wicked claws. They seem like their natural tools would be pretty efficient in a lot of the task that they are depicted using tools for. When humans started using tools, it was because we HAD too- our natural bodies weren't very good at much else than long distance running, thinking, and grasping things. I feel like these dinosauroids would never get sophisticated- if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I want a dinosauroid that looks like it would actually have some evolutionary pressure to create tools to be able to compete.
I'm not the only one who notices striking similarities between the dinosauroid and that four legged bird creature the star people found.
Right?
You mean the Birrin ?
@@JcoleMc yes! That one
@@EmpRuler i believe it had two legs and two arms. it looked to be similar to therizinosaurus. The Birrin are a four legged two armed aliens from a completely different creator.
@@JcoleMc i believe he was referring to all tomorrow’s star people, not the meta human
Thank you for making it clearer to me
Please keep making things like this. Worldbuilding videos. These are always bangers.
Something I think should be considered is that tools are only created or used when we don't have an appendage good enough for it. Humans created blades out of crushed rock because we packed claws and had long, precise arms. An animal with something wide and sharp on its face would probably opt for other technologies like agriculture before most tool use since the needs for hunting and defense is already there. Collecting seeds and potentially digging small canals would be simpler for a being with less dexterous limbs. From there tool use would likely emerge as more of a supplement to that process before it extends to hunting
My main criticism has to be reguarding them keeping their feathers. Through all of the depictions and scenarios it's made clear they've tamed fire, yet I imagine how hazardous it must be to have feathers in that situation.
Those guys make such interesting worldbuilding! It is awesome!
Man I love your channel. How is it that you cover such a variety of topics and yet they're all ones I'm strongly interested in??
I swear when I watch your videos my questions about the world only expand
This is really cool, but I feel like it’s a huge leap to go from basic wood and obsidian tools to intricate bronze weapons and armor. The amount of complex knowledge and craftsmanship that’s required for even basic bronze forging is immense, and seems well beyond realism for even these incredible creatures.
Now I can’t stop imagining a dinosauroid teenager on their phone-thing in the middle of class.
the artwork the dinosaurs was such a nice detail to give us a look in the eyes and imaginations of them. really creative stuff
It's cool that the artist modeled these after corvids, but I actually imagine them becoming more parrot-like as they evolve. Dinosauroids could end up following a similar evolutionary path as humans did, where the ability to crack open animal bones and pick out the calorie-dense marrow inside was a key factor in developing intelligence. Pointy corvid beaks are great for stabbing and pecking, but not so great at cracking tough material or manipulating objects with much precision. Parrot beaks, on the other hand, are specifically designed for cracking open nut shells and delicately picking out the meat inside. Evolution for these creatures may end up favoring such a beak both for better access to calories and for tool manipulation.
Here's TierZoo's parrot video for more info: ruclips.net/video/lLO5ecZXYdg/видео.html
Since you are a cockatiel, you are clearly showing parrot-centrism. 😉
HUGE Simon Roy fan. Not only is his design aesthetic and world building fantastic, he has a lovely touch with an ink brush. Reminds me of Will Eisner.
There is one thing they could do to make it even better: explain which evolutionary structures propeled their social behaviours like forming tribes and such. For us, its mainly highly developed and refined control of facial muscles and vocal chords.
i LOVE thinking about this im so glad some folks smarter than me have given their speculations on it im obsessed w/ "what if dinosaurs kept evolving" its soo interesting
His Subscriber count is growing so fast
FR. I subbed when he was at 10k and now he's at 70k. Fucking crazy.
I came here when the channel was with 3k...
@@pliskin101Same I knew from his content he would grow quickly
I just found your channel the other day and it is quickly becoming one of my favorites.
This video has healed me completely, thank you for sharing this amazing spec evo project! It cleansing my soul of anger would be an understatement
Absolutely love your content! Thank you!
It's certainly a fun concept. Yet, I can't help but wonder what the impact of using such tools predicted in the illustrations would have on these bird-like dinosaurs' beaks. Sure they can be used for basic things, but something strenuous like lifting heavy objects like spears and furthermore using them forcefully would surely wear down the cartilage in their beaks and wouldn't be good for them. In terms of battle, they'd probably be better off using their talons. Perhaps crafting a weapon as PART of their beaks, an outer shell that both protects their beaks and makes them more deadly, that's held together kinda like a muzzle.
And also the illustrations of these creatures painting using a feather they hold again with their beaks... These particular dinosaurs have eyes on the sides of their heads.. It would be awfully difficult to see what they were doing should they paint in this way.
Anyway. Fun to think about. Very interesting.
Would love to see some videogame, ttrpg, or other type of media to explore ideas like this in a more interactive way. This is a very cool project.
I can see the eventual rise of something similar to the Greek city-states back during the Hellenic period. If not, then they take the path similar to the Mongol Empire in origin. You know, going from just a bunch of nomadic tribes to the rulers of the world's largest empire to ever existed.
This is awesome. I would love to have dinosauroids in a book format
Now i can only imagine in an alternative universe where there's a renaissance portrait of an anthropomorphic crow in a fancy suit and curved feathers on his head and small pair of glasses on his beak
I really like speculative biology and alien planets. It is one of my favorite subsections of science
i wonder what it would look like when these species would make some speculative biology art where they explore the concept of an intelligent primate.
What an absolutely fantastic idea, I love everything about this. Great video!
The issue with a lot of these hypothetical humanlike non-humanoids is that one of our greatest strengths was our ability to run long distances and stay cool through sweating, and our ability to throw projectiles like spears… id love to see another body pattern that has similar capabilities in a different shape
T. rex was by no means a fast runner, but likely an endurance pursuer. It can still work. Heck, the theropod body plan avoids the multiple problems our body plan crashed face-first into, like the trouble of giving birth, the back pain from a sudden transition to bipedal stance, etc. they probably would’ve stayed cool by panting. Sure, it’s not as effective, but it still should work well enough.
great video as always
Thank you
this kinda triggers me, because the tech they use is extremely human influenced, which I see as an issue, because all human tech is designed for our very specific biomechanics.
like, I totally believe that they might use spears if they saw hominids using them. but considering their main manipulator is a beak, I don't see it being a very popular weapon. they should have things more tailored to their own biomechanics.
I think that the war masks would actually be *extremely* practical, though more as armor than a direct weapon. I think that do to their posture, and relatively short arms compared to humans, they would need to be far more cautious of their heads than hominids, because they either need to wield a weapon in their beak(which considering their neck structure likely won't be optimal) or need to get close enough to use their arms. I think they would usually prefer their arms for weapons over their beak, because they would probably be stronger, able to carry a heavier weapon, and hit harder with it even if his would mean giving up a bit of range and precision.
while this wouldn't be worth it for hominids, we aren't nearly as front heavy as these bois appear to be. so I think they would likely prefer to armor their head with masks, and carry bigger, heavier weapons in their hands.
I think more of their tech should also emphasize how they have very different manipulators, rather than just mimicking human tools. the current set up onlyt really makes sense if they are a post human species who sees humanity as a race of mythic heroes or something.
here is a thought, instead of a pickaxe or a warhammer, they have hammer masks and pick masks.
I kind of want to draw that
@@toakrikitt you should! I would show all my friends!
Irl corvids use sticks as tools so...
@@lepusistlich6930 ok, look up videos of crows using sticks. Do you honestly think that when they are holding a stick, they have the same level of strength and precision as if you were holding one?
I also thought of them equiping their feet with extended-stone/steel claws and mainly using them to deal high ammounts of damage. Just like the Legend of the Guardians's Owls.
I absolutely love the cave paintings and their depictions of spirits.
I dunno why but I like imagining these little guys becoming a spacefaring civilization and interacting with the Birrin
That would be sick, although maybe in this universe the Burrin home world as been altered too, so that way the Birrin never evolved and some species that became extinct in their world survived instead of going extinct and then eventually gave rise to a sapient species, just like with the Dinosauroids
I honeslty love speculative evolutions. Pls make more videos like these
I followed them on deviant art awhile back. I remember when trying to make the atlatl work they were making them more upright which they were thinking would make them too humanoid or something (I remember because that was the only time I heard the phrase "ape chauvinist") but a guy in the comments said something about attaching the spear thrower to their tails and illustrated what it might look like. That's always stuck in my mind. Glad All Tomorrows and now this seem to be getting more attention, I was really into them.
This is such a cool concept, the idea of dinosaurs growing human-like intelligence and forming their own cultures is just fascinating to me. I am surprised that nobody has done animation or film on this. I mean just imagine a series in the style of "walking with dinosaurs" following the evolution of Dinosauroids as they go from simple dinosaurs too. what they are at the end of the video. Hell maybe they could do something completely diffrent but I would love to see a Dinosauroids series or movie.
I think the beak of bird should be more thick and little bit big for picking rocks and to create art work. They should have good grip on things so that they can make such delicate things.
That was my only pet peeve about this. Either the dinos should have beaks more adapted for tool manipulation, or they should craft their tools to be way more comfortable and adapted for beaks than these have shown.
Like a parrot!
Maybe they should looks more like Oviraptors.
nice vid as always bro
I hope they allow people to write with this setting, its such a lovely idea for it to go the way of After Man (the company has the rights, but aren’t using them, just piled and forgotten)
C.M. Kosemen's work is soooooooo good. I just LOVE it. Gah. Was that patronizing enough?
Using spears to fish or hunt looks unlikely when they already have beaks of similar size. They would also need more strength than they have to carve the stone, and I doubt they would use armor or clothing that would negatively affect the possibility of flight. Evolution by natural selection does not jump so suddenly, it reaches local maxima of adaptability and that makes human-like evolution impossible. In reality, benefits like flying and using their beak will not be compromised for the hundreds of thousands of years needed to evolve efficient spear and clothing use.
These authors suffer from a similar mistake than Dale Russel: they are anthropologizing intelligence. Just civilizationally instead of corporally, taking our ancient history as inspiration.
I believe intelligence would evolve in a more unique way. You have to take abilities already present in reptiles or birds like the crows and evolve intelligence from there, considering each little step must be more beneficial than the last. Today they can, for example, drop nuts in highways so cars crack them open. If they are capable of that type of intelligence, imagine them developing further this "dropping" intelligence, learning about the use of different materials to drop and learning how to drop with angles, using this to carve and build bases or buildings. They'd never get to develop thumbs and probably never actually make tools and weapons the way we do.
Art would also not be inside caves or made with feathers, but in open fields and made by dropping materials.
Birds communicate by sound, so yes, they could develop a sort of complex language. That allows for society and potentially specialization of labor. The type of society would not look like ours though, because key aspects of the nuclear family are different and others are similar. Which of these species are monogamous? How is the egg hatching process? Who brings the food? Where do they bring it from? Questions like these will shape the type of society, type of hierarchy, type of tools used...
Super interesting topic though. I think it can be scientifically revised and become very revealing the more people discuss about it
Using spears to fish or hunt looks unlikely when they already have beaks of similar size.
Fishing? Perhaps. Hunting.... Do you know what the advantage of a spear is? It's not just that it's pointy. It's also that it's *long*. A beak is directly in front of the head, so to peck, a creature must expose its head. This is a considerable risk, to say the least. This is on top of the fact a long weapon allows you to threaten something at a greater distance than your actual body can reach. (Relatedly, this is why the beak-masks are deemed 'not terribly practical')
"They would also need more strength than they have to carve the stone, and"
Not actually sure on their size, but with a chisel and not too much strength, you can carve stone.
"I doubt they would use armor or clothing that would negatively affect the possibility of flight."
Now you're the one being essentialist - only a small minority of dinosaurs actually developed flight, or really, developed toward flight - just because these have feathers doesn't make them fliers. Bats also have fur, after all. They're not actually corvid ancestors.
Which is to say - they don't need to worry about the possibility of flight because they can't, their forelimbs being adapted for tool use and not, emphatically, flight.
The first time a dinosauroid takes flight, it will be in an airplane.
(Or a balloon, but... you get the idea.)
Today they can, for example, drop nuts in highways so cars crack them open. If they are capable of that type of intelligence, imagine them developing further this "dropping" intelligence, learning about the use of different materials to drop and learning how to drop with angles, using this to carve and build bases or buildings.
Slight problem. There are no cars. So, as you say, that step cannot occur.
The ability to stack rocks is a start on constructing things, and to some extent, many animals already do it. It's also not that different from how brick/stone buildings are built. And the development of tool creation from tool use is a... well, it's hardly *simple*, but one can definitely imagine a species evolving from using debris as tools to potentially shaping and combining objects to make them more useful tools - for instance, picking leaves off a stick before using it to dip for ants. Their intelligence might develop in pursuit of greater efficiency in this pursuit, becoming more and more capable of abstract thinking, of contemplating 'is there something here that I can use' but 'can I make something that I can use from the things here/that I remember/that probably exist nearby/that I could make from other things I know about'.
"They'd never get to develop thumbs"
But... they already have thumbs? They have opposing claws on their forelimbs.
"Art would also not be inside caves or made with feathers, but in open fields and made by dropping materials."
Petroglyphs tend to last longer. Rock art is certainly a possibility, but I don't see any particular reason they *wouldn't* make cave art. Or paint on skins, or whatever.
Better locomotion of hands and opposite thumbs can easily evolve. Because we don't live on trees humans evolve better locomotion and opposite thumbs than other living apes. There could be possible to evolve in those theropods.
dude the dino we were looking at doesn't fly. so it's not far off that they would make armor when hunting. also the guy that was reading the book. they didn't use the evolve as a what if, not for something serious. it is fantasy after all. anything goes in a fantasy.
@@basedeltazero714 spears are only good for humans.
1. spears would have to be held in the arms;
you're not telling me a tiny bird like creature can deliver any kind of efficient jab with its mouth. unless it has a serrated beak (for a better grip), that stupid stick is sliding out of its mouth.
2. spears being in the arms makes their range genuinely useless. now theyre big, theyre longer, theyre a little more unwieldly, and you risk slamming the pommel into your chest while you try and hit something while running (because theyre not standing still while they jab you. thats just not how any raptor type creature would hunt. that type of shit only works for humans, again. they will use the speed- they have it, humans dont.)
3. theyre fighting fast moving tyrannoraptors.
no, theyre not fucking using the beak held stick.
because itll pick them up and snap their back open. its literally useless.
4. dude i dont think these guys can chisel rock. sorry.
you know how a chisel works, right?
you take an item, place it on a stone, and smack it.
seems simple right?
except
1. their arms are arms, yes, but theyre not good arms, especially for their body shape. they still cant hold things the way humans do, i'm not accepting that kind of deduction from anyone. there is no way they're holding a chisel or a hammer as well as a human does.
2. hold the chisel and smack it. first off, they cant hold it, second off, they cant smack it either, because the movement is too awkward for one bird-raptor to try to carry out well. lets say they collaborate (making the chance of figuring out this method even smaller, but whatever) and someone hits the chisel with the hammer
... how do they MAKE the chisel AND the hammer...??
a hammer can be an improvised rock, yes, but what about the chisel? chisel is just a rock and stick of your choice, so i guess that works, but it sucks and probably wont work, just because beating a rock against a rock using a rock isn't that effective. you could say you beat a flat edged rock against a rock using a rock, but that has the same likely hood of working (literally zero).
i highly doubt these dudes will ever use chisels until they get to metalworking or specifically perfecting natural items for them to use, which is not easy and definitely not happening accidentally.
im saying it requires more thought than they actually have to copy humans in their style of evolution.
most of my points are just "the anatomy of a bird, no matter the god damn fingers, is not allowing for this."
and thats the reason crows are not using spears. they can use sticks, but theyre not killing animals larger than them with sticks, because thats just not how their god damn necks work.
and the reason most of my points are literally the same thing is because the fucking author decided to make birds that copy literally everything humans do.
its not creative if its just humans plastered onto raptors.
and to anybody about to say "they'll evolve to do these things"
no they probably wont, because they'll just find a more efficient way to do something way more efficient.
.. like running, digging, flying, or pack hunting using their actual beaks.
i love these animals, i hate everything about them.
@@3u-n3ma_r1-c0
Spears are extremely effective for essentially anything that can hold and thrust even halfway decently. It's kind of the universal weapon.
1: It's... entirely possible they would have serrated beaks? That's a thing that exists? And 'delivering an efficient jab' is A: a thing bird necks are designed to do, and B: literally what you're arguing. But I agree holding things in the mouth probably isn't terribly practical.
2: Okay, so the arms aren't as long as a human's. That doesn't mean they're useless or weak, it is possible to pack quite a lot of power into short limbs. Perhaps these creatures evolved to leap on prey and rip at it with their forelimbs as well as their beak. It would be quite reasonable to speculate that those limbs are capable of a quick, powerful thrust, the kind of thrust that would be ideal for use with a spear. Their main disadvantage would be that they can't throw particularly well, which is a quite significant disadvantage. They also can't as easily pass items across the chest (though they certainly could) or wield weapons in two hands, which would make _really_ long spears. That said... the equivalent of a 6' spear wouldn't be particularly difficult for them to carry. Larger spears are likely doable but somewhat less advantageous as they can't really swing a polearm. No, they would not need to carry the entire spear forward of their body. They'd carry it alongside their chest, you know, like spears are used.
That said... they probably are faster. So that's an advantage.
The idea of using it like a lance, as you seem to be imagining, is... somewhat feasible, but since they're not mounted they can't actually couch it, but sure, you could get a lot of force out of it. But that's not the only way to use a spear, and it's not even the only way to use a spear while moving, as it turns out that use of hand weapons doesn't actually impede foot movement. They can harry and swarm larger creatures, distracting and jabbing them as they circle, darting away from any counterattacks. This is... probably how raptor-like creatures already hunt, except they're now doing it from a longer, safer range, allowing them to tackle more dangerous prey and/or hunt more reliably. This doesn't actually prevent them from using more sophisticated, dare I say humanlike hunting techniques, like chasing animals into traps.
3: That's... more of an argument against hunting without the spears. The additional reach lets them stay out of range of retaliation. If the beak held stick *works*, then... well, it also gives additional range, because now in order to grab them, the target needs to reach across not only the length of the attacker's beak, but also the spear. This is rather basic.
4: The motion would be different, since they can't easily raise their arms over their heads. Personally, I would suggest that their arms are made primarily for thrusting and raking, so they could simply chisel directly, without the need for a hammer. That said, they could plausibly hold down the chisel with one hand and hammer with the beak. You know, like birds do to crack shells, for instance. They could even do this with two individuals - it's... uh. Not implausible that they work cooperatively, that's kind of the point of being highly intelligent.
Chipping rocks against other rocks until they're pointy is literally a thing that people do. Rocks have various hardnesses, fracture points, and numerous other ways in which they can be broken down. There's also bone as an option, which is more workable yet in some cases more durable than rock. You're basically arguing against the concept of paleolithic tools.
Also this: "i highly doubt these dudes will ever use chisels until they get to metalworking or specifically perfecting natural items for them to use, which is not easy and definitely not happening accidentally.
"
So. Never. You're never 'getting to metalworking' if you can't chisel. And *yes the whole point is that perfecting natural items is not easy*.
"and thats the reason crows are not using spears. they can use sticks, but theyre not killing animals larger than them with sticks, because thats just not how their god damn necks work."
Well, they don't have hands, for one. For another, they aren't intelligent enough to make a spear. A significant portion of this is _because_ they'd have difficulty actually making use of it, so there's no purpose in evolving higher intelligence. The intellect to make tools and the dexterity to use those tools are overwhelmingly likely to co-evolve, because they're each far, far less useful without the other.
"and to anybody about to say "they'll evolve to do these things"
no they probably wont, because they'll just find a more efficient way to do something way more efficient.
.. like running, digging, flying, or pack hunting using their actual beaks."
Well, yes. That's getting at why human levels of intelligence aren't, apparently, commonplace. Because it's incredibly costly from a metabolic perspective, and there are other local maxima that discourage its development. There's a reason intelligence emerged from apes - because they already have good dexterity, originally for climbing, and they have good cognition due to their need to spot food and navigate their environment. These traits were able to synergize with each other, allowing for an advantage that either one could not, and further developed by the resulting success. As this combination became more and more successful, it became more and more overwhelmingly important, and proto-humans evolved in ways that encouraged it, even though this meant giving up certain other advantages.
Observing the species that are quite intelligent, but *do not* develop, to put it briefly, civilization...
Corvids are one such group. They're quite clever, but they're limited by being birds. The first burden of this is the metabolic toll of flight, but also difficulty of tool use due to the lack of opposable thumbs. If you took a crow and made it human-level intelligent, what would it gain? Greater specialization of labor? Well, first off, that's something that came later in human history, but okay, how? It could potentially hunt more efficiently, but too what degree does this matter? A bare-handed human is hardly a better hunter than a chimpanzee. Fire and cooking? Well... maybe, but how would it make fire? Tool use? Now we come back to the problem. Its body design makes it difficult to actually use tools, so it has to make do with tools it can use, one way or another. And remember that intelligence is *metabolically expensive*, so every bit of intelligence it can't put to use is a tremendous detriment.
If it were more able to use tools, however... then it might actually be able to make use of the enhanced intelligence. Clawed wings, though they are not as condusive to flight, would allow it to more easily manipulate tools, and even without anything like an actual spear, one might imagine... perhaps, it sharpening sticks, weighting them, and dropping them on relatively larger prey, just as an example. Manipulating fire with, at least, greater ease, maybe even being able to start fires. All of this would mean that it was tremendously advantageous to focus on tool use over being better at flight.
... and these speculative creatures aren't actually corvids, but a descendant of proto-avian dinosaurs with black feathers. You will note that archaeopteryx *does* have claws on its wings.
Given that we are positing an intelligent creature it is reasonable to assume that it has features conducive to intelligence, and will use and expand on those features to the greatest extent possible. That it has, in fact, evolved in a suitable path, even if that path is not the most likely, and there certainly are local maxima - seeming large local maxima - that a given species is more likely to fall into, but for the thought experiment to work it has not, and instead developed along a path that allows it to ultimately develop civilization, and for that, the ability to *actually use* tools is essential, trumphing flight, speed, strength, anything. If it did not use tools and instead developed the ability to fly, it would be a different animal.
Fundamentally the creature you are describing is a wolf. A pack hunter, lives in family groups, fast, clever, and utterly unable to use tools. A fearsome and deadly predator, well adapted to its environment... and currently maintained in existence merely because the species that *did* go all in on intelligence thinks it would be mean to kill them *all*.
This is so much better than other dinosauroids I've seen
I literally found this two days ago, what a coincidence!
i love this spec evo review channel!
I think it would be more realistic for the dinosauroids to have the more common dinosaur snouts instead of bird beaks, with large lips to better control the tools they use
I love everything on this channel! So cool.
I think for the amount of sophistication of their armor and tools, their hands and arms have been underdeveloped physically. Way too much focus on beak use that is just clumsy compared to hands. And if they were to pursue a beak heavy use of tools then those tools and uses would reflect that.
The best speculative alternative dinosaurs timeline! I love they desing of all they creatures! Even they dinosauroid crow desing! ❤👍
I feel old saying this, but I remember older records of Kosemen's early developments of his Dinosauroid concept, where the spirit creature and Black Thing were one and the same, which _fascinated_ me as a kid. I wondered, what _was_ the "Black Thing"? What was its significance to the Dinosauroids? Was it real or simply a creature from their folklore? Kosemen splitting it into an unnamed spirit and a flesh and blood predator isn't a bad thing imo, though I _do_ wish the spirit creature had a name/title.
I'd also LOVE IT if _this_ concept got a book or something.
Is it too much speculation to say that the spirit creature is STILL The Black Thing? I mean, Consider human folklore. Even the more modern stuff, we see nebulous spirit monsters that vaguely resemble real animals that we might have some reason to fear; The Black Dog (The Grim, the Black Shuck, etc.) comes to mind. Tigers and whales and hyenas and serpents, all of these show up in the shadows of our fearful nights (though for whales that's a mite more contextual than serpents, I admit.)
It may well be that the physical Black Thing is considered a kind of dark avatar of the spiritual Black Thing, much as snakes were analogous to The Serpent. In time, the physical Black Thing will become more conceptually distinct from the spiritual Black Thing, until the physical depiction is little more than symbolism for the force of evil the spiritual depiction stands for.
@@QuantumWaltz That is a cool interpretation!
How dare you, that "unique spear" throwing device mirrors our own and atlatl are dope as heck
Something about their spear usage rubs me the wrong way.It makes sense theyd make use of their beaks like humans used their teeth for tool work in the past.But using a spear directly in their mouths for straight thrusts? So if it meets any resistance and slips it just slips through their beak into the back of their skull? Or shatters their beak as it slips through. Wouldnt it make more ergonomic sense to be used in their claws or a radical different beak holding spear design like a branch with a natural 90 decree angled branch for holding.
Damn I love this channel. Speculative zoology is so rad.