We Will Never Forget You: Remembering Andy Palmer
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- Опубликовано: 3 ноя 2011
- This-wildland firefighter Andy Palmer's tragedy-is the story of how we arrived at today's Dutch Creek Protocol guidelines for emergency medical response and extractions. The video's conclusion stresses the importance of three key questions: "1) What will we do if someone gets hurt? 2) How will we get them out of here? 3) How long will it take to get them to the hospital?"
I remember this day like it was yesterday. It was our crew's second or third day on the line, and our position was roughly 2/3 of the way up a ridge and our crew was strung out along a 2-track road. The fire was across the valley and working it's way down the hill towards a stream. Just after 1pm or so, everything went to hell. RH bottomed out, winds picked up, and the fire jumped the creek, and started making runs up our side of the hill. Our crew used our escape route to our safety zone as we were getting spots across our line and were unable to hold.
As soon as we reached our safety zone, we started catching the radio traffic of this incident. It was a rough situation to sit there and listen to it all happen. I think of Andy often as I am a certified Faller, and it has certainly helped me keep better situational awareness when felling on/off of fires.
Even this training video replays one of the mistakes that happened. ‘The tree impacted his leg’ is too sanitized: it should be ‘a large tree has fallen and completely smashed his leg with massive bleeding’.
Obviously there were a lot of mistakes & problems that led to this tragedy but the one that I find the most unfathomable & the biggest learning point is the fact that no one in his faller crew & none of the medical responders had a tourniquet. Every single person in a crew should have at least a small IFAK & that kit should include at least at least one tourniquet. I carry two TQ’s, one CAT & a SOFT plus bulky dressing, bandage rolls chest seals & a 6” IDF bandage in my line gear.
Andy MajorsMost don't know what an IDF bandage is. I carry a CAT plus various Israeli's plus a SWAT T, Combat gauze and other hemostatic products. There is another TQ out now a little wider than the CAT...the brand escapes me for the moment. Plus 3 chest seals.
@@rogerdickinson920 IDF Bandage is also called an Israeli Bandage.. it's a pressure dressing with a built in ACE wrap.
wow, Andy didnt have a chance...what a cluster
I was there and several of the pictures were mine. Yes he never should have been near that tree. The line medic should have been tried for criminal negligence!
Couldn't watch this until the end. What a disgrace.
I use this video frequently in my EMT classes to provoke discussion on communications. It always sparks a lot of debates and. The most frequent discussions end up being about ego ( 2 medics can't agree) I applauded Wildland Fire LLC for this most honest and informative video
As a NC Forest Service Member this is one of the most informing videos I have seen related to an accident and the lessons learned from it. It is a shame that a tragedy like this must occur before things are changed. Accidents are always going to happen, but knowing what to do and acting quickly can mean the difference between life and death for me or one of our wildland fire family.
Rest in peace Andy. My heart felt sadness for your ultimate sacrifice . My prayers go out to your family , as well as to your extended family of fellow fire fighters. Your fellow brothers and sisters will always have a special place in our hearts for you.
Your my hero brother. Watch over us.
RIP Andy. My condolences to his family.
It's hard to imagine that in well over 2 hours noone could manage the bleeding. A tourniquet would have saved Andy's life.
This was hard to watch and so many ways it's too easy to backseat quarterback this but how could you guys not expedite getting him off that Hill. It seems like this firefighter died because of bantering bickering and differing opinions. But like I said too easy to be an armchair quarterback I just hope that we never have another incident like this.
R.I.P absolute warrior
This a case of the IC faling badly, Treat and get the victim down the mountain and get him in a ambulance.
As a timber faller of 35yrs and a contract faller on wildland fire since 87, I can tell you that the idea that 'no one should die on a wildland fire' is incredibly unrealistic. People die every day from all sorts of human activities. It's always sad. There's always a reason. What's an accident? A sequence of events that leads to an incident. That's why there's a Lesson Learned Center. To mitigate future issues and call attention to our future actions. The FS doesn't 'suck'. There are some very good people that are putting a lot of effort into this. They should be thanked and not critiqued by 'armchair firefighters'. 'Stump judges' we timber fallers call some. The one omission of this lesson learned that concerns me? Why is an engine crew member falling a tree when there are contract fallers available. This is a recurring problem on fires with individuals over estimating their 'C' faller quals. And falling contractors hiring 'fallers' that lack pro experience or are incapable of performing the task is another BIG problem. I'm working on it this off season...
***** Hey Steve! Thanks for the great comment! Contractors of all sorts are a critical piece of the response to wildland fire, and we appreciate your service.
Steve Wright As you have experienced (& survived..) accidents happens.
How about adressing a hopeless failing system unable to rescue injured service personnel only a short distance away from modern health care??
Standards like in deepest Africa 🙈
Find the obvious failure instead of endless advanced recommendations & prescriptions only pushing responsibility down the hirachy to low educated & inexperienced people!
Were you on the Yellowstone fires in 88? My father was a C-faller for several years and spent most of his life falling timber. I'm on a type 2 crew out of Montana. We do very little falling. That is left to the pros. I know how to run a saw and fall when I need to, that's what happens when your the son of a logger and grow up in the woods. But I am NOT and likely never will be good enough to be a C-faller.
Not a fifefighter ,just been fascinated and atching many of these videos and cannot help but hope that todays men and women all carry GPS spot standard. This alone would have greatly helped with nearly every single accident I have seen as victim location is a common denominator in all accidents from this to deployment issues.
We need to have a command that has real time gps overlayed on a google earth type map that indicates where everyone is and the geopgraphical layout.
That young man was/ is a hero. Way braver than I have EVER been. THANKS TO ALL WHO SERVE OR HAVE SERVED! His family should be proud.
Not a firefighter, but a medic and this was rough to watch. What kind of first aid training is standard for crews? The professional medics seemed to have royally screwed up, but I’d have expected the regular crew to have even a bit more capability. Maybe an adapted version of the Army’s Combat Life Saver course is needed.
Currently there is not First Aid training for Wildland crews.
great work God Bless
Wtf man I carry more medical gear in my go bag and I'm not a first responder. Wtf how do you f that up. He should have been glued to a senior firefighter.
We are not concerned with “mistakes” - we are concerned with learning for future operations. How will you use these lessons?
WildlandfireLLCARE YOU KIDDING ME??? After a marine incident there was always a debriefing to see what was done right and what was done wrong or could have been done better so that if the same or similar situation cropped up again the same mistakes would not be repeated.I'm hoping you're response was just poorly worded, if not and you were working for me, you'd be out of a job.
Charm Me TonightYou're first paragraph is spot on.The rest of the statement, I agree with.You should replace the WildFireLLC and send him packing.
I’m still trying to figure out how you lesson learned if you’re not concerned with mistakes
Great story, but he should have never died.
No one carries tourniquets in their first aid kits?
I do
herb tenderI carry a belt trauma kit given to me by a Baton Rouge officer. Amongst other things it has Combat gauze which is a pad with a blood clotting agent in it to speed up clotting. An Israeli bandage may be a consideration to add to your kit. Various sizes and both 1 and 2 pads for in and in-out wounds ie gunshots.There are some good tutorials on UTube.A bone injection gun in the other leg may have simplified an IV, Combat gauze or Celox or some other hemostatic agent or product may have helped to slow down blood loss. Sounds like he bled out so the heart tried to compensate by speeding up the it would quit thru loss of blood. The boy died of Hypovolemic shock,I'd have put my money on the Coast Guard for getting him out. Not much in the way of First aid that can be done during the hoist.There are automatic CPR machines out now.
Tourniquets used to be "The last thing" you did to stop severe bleeding. They were not in most 1st aid kits. Spare bootlaces have lots of uses......
Our crew does.
No but could have been avoided. 3 hr tell hosted? And this is why I'm my own teams line medic and will not trust anyone else to work on them.
It's quite possible he would have lost his leg no matter what but I don't think he should have died. Being able to tell if someone is bleeding to death is more important than noticing a broken leg. First things first.get a dying man to a E.R. fast
This kid fell through the chains of
Command to his death
Yes the medical response was horribly handled in this incident. But to completely ignore why he got hit by the tree in the first place is incredibly disingenuous if you're really wanting to prevent something like this in the future. These guys were felling trees well beyond their capability. They knowingly mislead fire supervisors about their tree felling qualifications, then knowingly fell trees beyond their ability and got their buddy killed. All these guys got attorneys and didn't tell a peep to the investigation team.Also on the medical side no mention of the medic that undid a tourniquet? This is government at its finest, zero accountability.
Yea man I heard about that.
First mistake not having better trained medics to evaluate.
Second not transporting the victim to a location were more help is availible.
Third not transporting via ground abulance.
Absolute disgrace. We are suppose to be professionals. Have a game plan, know what the hell you are doing and always up triage. Correct communication is vital in all incidents but when isolated it’s even more crucial.
Unbelievable stupidity..
A nation able to bomb any spot within a meter all over the world is unable to manage simple first aid & provide immediate airlift to a severely injured person by daylight only a minor distance from civilisation..
How many choppers were actually available & how many incapable "bosses" busy screwing up, while this fine young man is slowly dying in front of them.. 😔😔
Thx for sharing this insight of catastrophic management & priorities ..
He should be alive. The basics of emergency pre-hospital care were not taken. Communication was horrific and the treatment for a PT with his injuries were near non-existent. Those paramedics did a horrible job and forgot the basics. LOC, ABC. Wtf. This should be taught in EVERY EMT-B course and beyond.
Not surprising.
didn't someone have a belt on that coulda been used?
Luralene Tapahe .
I for a fact that they all had a belt on of some kind because we are trained to have one
to many people trying to be in control not a good command site set up
I would have all them investigated
What a cluster f*ck! Waiting on scene for helicopter was a very poor decision - you package the patient & you start moving them if the helicopter arrives in time they can meet you somewhere between the accident scene & the hospital but waiting should not have been a choice.
wow!! horrible trajedy!!! R.I.P. Mr Palmer. So sad!! The forest service sucks
Tourniquet!
Too many chiefs
Back seat quarter back or not: this was unacceptable. This guy was not in a heavy fire zone, helicopter pilots that get hired for forest service should be screened for chicken out bones, a guy is bleeding out on a mountain, get your A** in the air and figure it out. Why this kids supervisor didn't say this 15 minutes after he knew about it blows my mind. People should have lost their jobs if they didn't. So what, so you'll remember him, I think he would have preferred to be thought of when it would have saved his life!
What a mess.