17:15 what Feli forgets here is that in Gymnasium you automatically get the „diploma“ from Hauptschule by passing 9th and the „diploma“ from Realschule (so „Mittlere Reife“) by passing 10th grade in Gymnasium. No exams needed. You could then also just leave Gymnasium without ever having to take any exams. Same as the US.
One very important aspect I want to add is when I went to school, I had religion classes in elementary school and opted out in high school. All those classes have been optional, later on they introduced ethics classes as an alternative and I believe it was mandatory to take one of the two. But I want to emphasize that my personal experience is that in religion classes, we did not really practiced religion, but we learned about religion. Mostly Christianity, because it's part of our culture/history, but also about Judaism, Islam, Hinduism etc. And I believe it is important to know about these things, especially in an inclusive society.
When i went to school (i'm 58 now) in Niedersachsen, we had the so called "Orientierungsstufe", which was from class 5-6 and after that we got selected to go to Hauptschule, Realschule or Gymnasium. I think that was better than selection already after Grundschule.
I'm in 11th grade in MV right now, and after 4th grade, I went to a "Regionalschule" so Haupt- and Mittelschule combined. After 6th grade I then had the opportunity to either stay or go to a Gymnasium, as they only start in 7th grade here (except for example Sportgymnasium or similar specialised Gymnasien; they start at 5th grade) So that was actually kinda like the Orientierungsstufe you had.
I attended the Orientierungsstufe at the same time. The classes were split for some subjects, first in two parts, later in 4 parts with different difficulty. I then went to Gymnasium. We moved to Austria and they had a considerably higher level of knowledge at the time. I needed a year to get up to their level.
As bad as some people might think the German system might be as it "selects" the school type at the age of ten there is one big advantage other systems might not have: It is "osmotic" meaning you have a lot of chances to end at university level at least in the state of Baden-Württemberg, one of the 16 ( !!) different school systems as education is a matter of state law NOT federal law ! Example: I started with Gymnasium but having a high IQ I got bored and failed. Went to Realschule, back to vocational Gymnasium, Abitur, studied and am a Realschul teacher now :)
When i went to school (i'm 58 now) in Niedersachsen, we had the so called "Orientierungsstufe", which was from class 5-6 and after that we got selected to go to Hauptschule, Realschule or Gymnasium. I think that was better than selection already after Grundschule.
i have done the Realschule in germany so i have left the normal school with 16 after this i have visite a professional school for 2 years to become a beautician but it wasnt enough for me so with 18 i have decided to visite a what we call here a second chance school where you can make your grades for university even when you dont have visite a gymnasium in the first place. you only need to have a graduation from a professional school before do to this way. so its possible to upgrade your education after all when you want and put the effort in :)
I've learned three years to get a nurse (Krankenschwester). Part in nursing-school, part in hospital. Now they go to a academy for nursing ad study it. I had to decide if I would be a nurse or a childrens nurse. Now the first two years are together, for chidrens, grown ups and old people. After that you can decide which way you want go and learn a third year to get an exam. Than you are "Pflegefachfrau/Pflegefachmann" for childrens, grown ups and old people.
i was in hauptschule and after that i was trainee for 3 years and graduated. i decided to do something different after that.. i was twenty and went to BOS. there i made my abitur and after that i studied. good thing. during BOS i got 700 euros per month for "going to school". so i went to school 5 days a week and worked 35 hours a month in a theater to get another 450 euros. so during BOS i was living in my own flat already. it was an amazing time.
After elementary school i got reconmendet to "Hauptschule" so i attended at a School where you have "Hauptschule" and "Realschule" at the same time but different classes. In class 10 i got to the higher educational Hauptschul - Klasse where my main subjects are the same as in the "Realschule" . at the end i got the same degree as the better people of the Realschul - Klassen and was like placed under the top five of the whole school year. After that i went to a vocational school "Berufsschule" to make my A level but i didnt like the teachers or the school in a whole and i failed hard. I took a year of social work and then got into my "Ausbildung" (training) as an IT guy and now study IT focused topics. My instructor said i was like in my first year better than the current third year apprentice. or something. So i still have to learn stuff but can focus on things I enjoy.
Hi Austrian here! The system is pretty similar here, so I won't go into the few differences. I got my Matura (Austrian equivalent to Abitur) and tried to study at a University, but droped out due to my social anxiaty at the time. After I droped out I did 3,5 years of vocational training as an IT-Technitian, and have been working in the field ever since.
FYI: I attended school from 1971 until 1984 in Germany and qualified with an Abitur for university. I agree with the facts Feli presented and most but not all of her opinions. Children from lower socio-economic and/or migratory backgrounds tend to have more problems in school - but that is not an inevitable situation. Many primary schools nowadays have programs to help these children with additional tuition for the main topics (German, math, and science). But that's a rather recent development. My father was an unskilled laborer and my mother was a chronically ill housewife. They couldn't help me at all with school or homework. I had to manage on my own and so I did. In "Oberstufe" (years 11-13) my school received a big influx from other schools (we were about 100 and got at least another 100 new pupils), all the pupils from Haupt- and Realschulen that didn't pass the language threshold (6 years in one language, mainly English and 4 years in another language, mainly French). For passing the Abitur you must have had lessons worth of 6 and 4 years in two languages. So, all pupils that didn't pass this barrier had to attend intensive courses in French (3 years, but with the same curriculum of the 4 years from 7th to 10th grade) in addition to all the normal lessons in Oberstufe. This was a hard and difficult program but with the exception of maybe 5 pupils we all passed the Abitur exam. One of my sons is on the autism spectrum and always had so many problems in school, all the twelve years from 1st to 10th grade (8 years before he finally was diagnosed with autism and got a school support assistant) and he passed with the lowest possible grade. After almost 5 years of making him fit for work (social and occupational coaching - entirely financed by the state), he started an apprenticeship in a low-qualification profession in 2021 with the goal to be a journeyman in 2024 and continue the apprenticeship in a normal-qualification profession in the same field from 2024 to 2026. But as he has become somewhat ambitious he was promoted to the normal-qualification course after only 1 year. He even started to learn Spanish as an additional course. The system isn't as rigid as it was until the 1960ies. You can move up (or down). It may be difficult and you sometimes have to jump through some hoops but it's doable. Some people are just not meant for higher education, they prefer to work with their hands. Why should they suffer through calculus or Goethe? And to be a Geselle (journeyman) or even a Meister (master) brings a high social standing - and in any case it's better than driving a cab while having a university degree.
I went to a Gesamtschule in Germany and there moving between these school forms was rather easy. I used to be bad at English so I attended the Realschule-Lessons but I was good in German, so I could attend the Gymnasium-Lessons there and eventually my grades were good enough for me to switch my English class to the Gymnasium-level as well and move on to Abitur.
My family moved to an eastern state in Germany when I was attending the 6th class at a Realschule. When we moved, I had to go back to Grundschule (Elementary school) which I was not very fond of 😅. Later on, I attended a Gesamtschule which is in my opinion really the best way. You can attend subjects in general and advanced courses and then get a degree based on which requirements have been met. I attended school with people that got the Hauptschulabschluss whereas I got the Allgemeine Hoschulreife. That was nice 😁 Unfortunately, my Gesamtschule did not go all the way to Abitur (some do). So after 10th grade, I attended the Obestufenzentrum. There you can do Abitur or Fachabitur. I am really not fond of this whole "Bildung ist Ländersache" (Education is in the hands of the state). The system needs a lot of improvement and should be decided by the Bund (overall government of the country) 😬 It doesn't stop at the Abitur. The problems continue in the Ausbildung. Later, when I did an Ausbildung, my advisor told me for the Zwischenzeugnis, "It doesn't matter what you get, as long as you pass you cannot get a 1 (very good) anyway because half of the topics in the class you did not get tought yet." That is because of the different Lehrpläne in the different states in Germany.
sure it is - and also as mentioned below - for myself, it is a more of a teachers thinking. when they say, your son, so myself, is intelligent to go to gymnasium, we go to gymnasium. at the age of 10 you don't know which school is the best for you. but, the german school system works pretty well. getting young aged pupils in different schools, make sense. in other countries it is absolutely the other way round, i understand, but german schools, unviersities, are among the best all over the world. so ask youself, why!?
To me it is often remarkable how much praise the German school system gets from foreigners, so it was a good choice to stick with Feli's video as an introduction, since she knows about the controversies. The system had been designed, as mentioned in the video, to create separation. Althought society has changed a lot, we still stick to that system and claim that we have overcome the inequality that had originally been intended. But separation does take place on a daily basis, often more subtle, but it is there. And it also ties in with the German federalism that leaves education and its regulations mostly in the hands of the states, so your personal education and to some extent your future career depend heavily on external factors and also just luck
Before hand I like to mention that I come from a poor family where my parents both live on social security and don't have any money. They did their best to support me (i.e. many school trips were just too expensive for us, and I got my first pocket money of 15€ per month at 16 i think), but I was a dumb kid and did not appreciate it like I do now as an adult in my 30ties as well as being lazy and was more trying to look "cool" and not as a dork, despite being bullied every day. Bullying isn't a problem anymore I am told by friends with kids in school, so at least this got better^^. I got all basic school degrees. Hauptschul deg. + quali (bavarian special deg from a hauptschule), mittlere reife, abitur. Basically I wasted a lot of time in the Hauptschule leaving with just the standard leaving certificate cause I failed the Quali Test. Failed to find an apprenticeship a few years, was jobless. Got my ass into gear after my parents proverbially kicked my ass and went to a program (free, provided by city/state) to retake the Quali Exam. Succeeded. Then decided to go to an private gymnasium (had to pay for it monthly) for evening classes while working part time for 4 years to get the Realschul abschluss + Abitur. Started studying in uni for 1 1/2 years, didn't had the time anymore to continue my Games Engineering (Bachelor Science, and had a numerus clausus, meaning they had a requirement of certain grades cause limited spots. can be circumvented under certain circumstances like in my case since I put myself on the waiting list and had several years of work experience. and a requirement of grades of an average of 1,5 or better in the abitur. I had 4,3 or 3,4? cant remember, nobody cares about your degree or school diploma after having job experience xD.) studies. Since then stayed just in the work world. I got a part time student job as a programmer in uni, and from there switched companies 2 times till today and earn a decent amount of money as a single living alone (52k€ per year comes to around 2,7-2,8k€ per month after tax), and work for a company with thousands of employees as a systems developer. All without any apprenticeship or uni degree :). But I also taught myself programming and did work on projects in my spare time for fun and to learn since 18 years old. And think I got my first job in the field in my late 20ties. So its possible for some fields to work without any degree if you put in the hard work, sweat, blood and tears and got something to show for it :). It also has the benefit of getting instant respect from employers and being seen in a positive light since you show initiative, drive to learn and better yourself and get the job done^^. At least that's what my employers always told me. All this is about IT basically, of course you can't just go be a doctor without an university degree. Basically you can work as nearly everything without a degree or apprenticeship, as long as its not something like doctor or teacher. All you need is experience and have something to show for it. At least that is my experience.
20:00 I went to a private Protestant Gymnasium, but it was simply the only gymnasium present in our area and the „Protestant“ part was only visible during a mandatory 15 minute chapel service for your and the one lower or upper grade every 8 weeks on Wednesday. So it isn’t even worth mentioning. Every religion went there, it was just like a public gymnasium just with our parents having to pay 50-100€ per month per kid.
I personaly graduated after 9th grade from my old school and the Teachers always compered us to the Students on the Gymnasium, they always said we are dump and shit. also the Gymnasium which was conected to my school had much things on there schoolyard, which is kind of not fair...why kids on a Gymnasium get more than Kids on other schools ? btw i am 18 now and i made my Mittleren abschluss ( 10th grade) and have a nursing education.
Private schools in germany I think are not so different to public schools in the quality. Germanys education is ruled federal so the quality differences comes from the different managed education by the administrative politicians in the 16 different federal states in germany which are giving direction for private schools too. There isn't even a debate (so far as I noticed) about a difference in acceptance or knowledge here dealing with private or public. It's not they way... ah school blublub must be good because it's private. The motivation to send the kids to private schools I think is that private schools can sort out migrants or other not wealthy people so that kids there learn more easily - what eventually ends up in better results. And in public schools teachers are often missing / are ill and there are big classes but not in private schools I guess.
There are private schools in Germany (also religious). But they have to follow state requirements, otherwise their qualifications will not be recognised. State schools have a better reputation. Anyone who is sent to a private school often has to listen to the mockery whether they are too stupid for normal state school and need special help.
Ok Hauptschule went to grade 10 not 9. You could also get the same sent off like on the Realschule. The three types just sort you in according to your skill level but the schools are combine really.
Perhaps my personal "story" is a bit unique: I got a recommendation for Hauptschule because I was so quiet in school and one teacher thought that I would basically "drown" in Realschule - I really wonder what she imagined what school life in Hauptschule may look like for a child that is as quiet and "shy" as I was.🙊 I personally think I'd rather "drowned" there socially as well as academically than in Realschule. However, my parents ignored the recommendation (also because another teacher thought it was wrong for me) and so I went to Realschule. I am diagnosed with social anxiety and probably suffered from it or something that "preceded" it when I was a child. But back then I was undiagnosed, in fact that was the case for a rather long time. Today I really hope/wish that all children get the help and support they need. It's not always due to laziness or "minor intelligence" when children perform badly in school (oh and in my case it was "mündliche Beteiligung" that was really bad. In Germany it is crucial for students to participate verbally in class) and I hope that teachers nowadays are more educated about that and can offer the right advice (like "that child should be checked by a psychologist"). Of course that should be the case in every country, but I think that in Germany if a teacher thinks you'll fit best in a certain school type it might really define your future under certain circumstances.
@ stef: du bist vielleicht auf einer anderen ebene, der oder die beste. schule und abschluss, heisst nicht, wir sind besser oder schlechter. ich habe uni-diploms und freunde über alle schichten. drogen-kinder, die ich genauso betreue wie traumatisierte flüchtlinge, nicht nur ukrainer. es ist meine aufgabe zu helfen, ob ich nen iq von 125 habe spielt gar keine rolle. ich bin da als mensch und helfe.
dein post macht mut, und ich finde wir sollten mehr respekt zeigen. mein iq ist irrelevant, 132, um ehrlich zu sein. aber ich helfe überall, den armen obdachlosen und den flüchtlingen. ich habe 14 leute bei mir wohnen, von allen ländern. der gegenseitige respekt das gefühl, was wir geben können, ist unbezahlbar. sie respektieren mich, meine familie, kultur, ich nehme noch mehr auf, wenn es sein soll.
@@bearenkindercool ja, gegenseitiger Respekt ist natürlich wichtig und Hilfsbereitschaft lobenswert. Und ja, natürlich hängt der Wert eines Menschen nicht von Leistung oder Status ab. Ich finde es nur sehr schade, wenn Menschen aus welchen Gründen auch immer Chancen verwehrt werden (und das gilt genauso z.B. für Menschen aus "unteren" sozialen Schichten, die das Pech hatten, in eine ungünstige Umgebung geboren zu werden, wofür sie nichts können und was sie sich nicht ausgesucht haben) und denke, dass das durchaus ein gewisses Problem in unserem Schulsystem ist. Und Schule und Abschluss bestimmen nunmal mehr oder weniger über die Zukunft eines Menschen, jedenfalls hier in Deutschland sicherlich relativ stark, vielleicht mehr noch als in vielen anderen Ländern.🤔 Auch wenn es natürlich auch hier immer auch Möglichkeiten gibt, weiterzukommen und nötigenfalls auch Alternativen, "Nischen", die man finden kann, etc. und niemand sein Leben lang immer auf dem gleichen Weg bleiben muss.🙂
dein und mein wille, beider einstellung, finde ich gut. du bist so ein toller mensch, ich wünschte es gäbe mehr von dieser sorte mensch. stef du bist für mich ganz oben in der skala.
I don't t hink that there is a very high disparity between public and private schools in Germany. I for example used to attend a private catholic girls school in Germany and my family had to pay nothing for it. It all was paid by the richer families, so that the poorer ones (like my parents) had to pay nothing. Even when it came to trips to London or Berlin I had to pay nothing. This school was very social, BUT not everyone could go there. Before there were many tests, many dialogs with me and my mother. They chose very very well. They wanted to know everything about me: first of all it was the best to be catholic for sure😂, but even my hobbies played a role, if there are siblings in this school yet, my grades were very important etc. But if you'll manage to be included it is the best school ever, although it is not seen as sth very special in my hometown. It is told about as about any other public Gymnasium. I had a great time there and over the years they allowed boys too. Unfortunately not in my time.😢
I really dislike that we still have these different school levels in Germany since the original GOAL of that system was to keep the children in the same class as their parent so that the rich kids could get a better education and go off to college and the poor kids would stay to do manual labor. Of course that isn’t considered the direct goal of that system but as was explained in the video, it still indirectly works that way. I do see the advantages of different times of graduation (if you can call it that) but I think it’s more logical for children to go to the same school and then in that school decide when they want to leave the school and take an apprenticeship or to continue to have the opportunity to go to university, as it is in Gesamtschulen.
That's not entirely true. In the three different school options, you don't necessarily learn things that will have an impact on your later career But these schools are tailored to your personal level, which doesn't mean that you're dumber than someone who goes to high school, but you are It has to be a bit better adapted to the needs of the individual for that not necessarily But only if you go on a hop it doesn't mean that you later have worse job prospects than someone who later goes to university, i.e. studies Even if you get that pushed in these days, it's not true It used to be like that, but nowadays many companies are looking for new blood from Alfredner It is also known as a skills shortage
Yes, Mert's dialect is a bit difficult to understand for most Germans, but I like it. It's not meant to be disrespectful, but to me, it sounds very funny, but nice and interesting as well. And if you ever stayed in Australia for 15 months or in Newcastle Upton Tyne for five days, you won't have a problem with Scottish any more. 😂
I'm not so positive with the german schoolsystem. In my opinion switching the intended profession doesn't work while you go to school. So maybe you tried the wrong one and have to start allover again in the worst case. Thats nothing germans really consider much during the school years. School is very structured an institutioned anyway so most of us rather just trust blindly in it and look out where it leads them after school at all than to think about what they are interested in within school. And if you are not at a Gymnasium and the education is not that good by definition you think even less about what you going to do... in contrast to Gymnasium. But at Gymnasium the way to go is clear anyway. But anyway some start a 'Praktikum' (not/less payed for / not certified-needed Jobs) just to get some experience to decide if it's in your interest or work certified at it or start for a few days or weeks a job during school-holiday or while they do school to find out... or just have a dream job or so. Many people are influenced to a profession by the professions of their parents because the parents are able to help them in their own profession more easily. I think why germans are not doing all 'Gesamtschule' is because Gesamtschule is historical the latest form (not sure) and in the beginning 100 years ago when school was created or so there was school for basic jobs and Gymnasium for academic enivronment already the intended way and gets to the actual day the highest acceptance in society and Gesamtschule was lately created because the soiciety lost too many children early in the wrong way to get them a chance to decide later. So Gesamtschule ist more the alternative than the leading form.
For people coming from poor or middle-class families, it is almost impossible to obtain a higher level of education. They have to take care of their own food, rent, and transportation/fare. In other words, they have to work. And this is where our nicely calculated system kicks in because: -> Those who have a lower secondary school leaving certificate (Hauptschulabschluss) usually only get very low-paying jobs that no one else wants to do (especially if they are unskilled and without formal training). -> A low-paying job only pays the minimum wage (14€). So, you have to work even more to finance your worker/student double life. -> Low-paying jobs tend to be physically demanding as well as poorly paid. So, you need double the endurance for your double life. -> Evening schools are called evening schools because they take place in the evenings. If you have a family and want to spend time with them, forget about it. Furthermore, the German education system is also considered one of the most unfair in the world. Dividing children at the age of 10 into categories of "too dumb," "just getting by," and "allowed to lead a good life" is a crying injustice. And rightfully so, it is criticized time and time again. When it comes to determining who gets to lead a good life, the parents' occupation is usually taken into account. So, it can happen that you and I are in the same school class, with the exact same grades in the same subjects. But because your father is a lawyer and mine is a baker, you get the recommendation for the gymnasium (college-preparatory school) while I get sent to the Hauptschule (lower secondary school). Unfortunately, the wealthy people in our country fundamentally block any attempt to bring about change. The argument always goes, "My child should not be in the same class as the less intelligent ones. It will rub off on them!" And with that, every reform is suffocated at its inception. Because those who have money also have influence.
17:15 what Feli forgets here is that in Gymnasium you automatically get the „diploma“ from Hauptschule by passing 9th and the „diploma“ from Realschule (so „Mittlere Reife“) by passing 10th grade in Gymnasium. No exams needed.
You could then also just leave Gymnasium without ever having to take any exams. Same as the US.
One very important aspect I want to add is when I went to school, I had religion classes in elementary school and opted out in high school. All those classes have been optional, later on they introduced ethics classes as an alternative and I believe it was mandatory to take one of the two.
But I want to emphasize that my personal experience is that in religion classes, we did not really practiced religion, but we learned about religion. Mostly Christianity, because it's part of our culture/history, but also about Judaism, Islam, Hinduism etc. And I believe it is important to know about these things, especially in an inclusive society.
When i went to school (i'm 58 now) in Niedersachsen, we had the so called "Orientierungsstufe", which was from class 5-6 and after that we got selected to go to Hauptschule, Realschule or Gymnasium. I think that was better than selection already after Grundschule.
I'm in 11th grade in MV right now, and after 4th grade, I went to a "Regionalschule" so Haupt- and Mittelschule combined. After 6th grade I then had the opportunity to either stay or go to a Gymnasium, as they only start in 7th grade here (except for example Sportgymnasium or similar specialised Gymnasien; they start at 5th grade) So that was actually kinda like the Orientierungsstufe you had.
I attended the Orientierungsstufe at the same time. The classes were split for some subjects, first in two parts, later in 4 parts with different difficulty. I then went to Gymnasium.
We moved to Austria and they had a considerably higher level of knowledge at the time. I needed a year to get up to their level.
As bad as some people might think the German system might be as it "selects" the school type at the age of ten there is one big advantage other systems might not have:
It is "osmotic" meaning you have a lot of chances to end at university level at least in the state of Baden-Württemberg, one of the 16 ( !!) different school systems as education is a matter of state law NOT federal law !
Example: I started with Gymnasium but having a high IQ I got bored and failed. Went to Realschule, back to vocational Gymnasium, Abitur, studied and am a Realschul teacher now :)
When i went to school (i'm 58 now) in Niedersachsen, we had the so called "Orientierungsstufe", which was from class 5-6 and after that we got selected to go to Hauptschule, Realschule or Gymnasium. I think that was better than selection already after Grundschule.
i have done the Realschule in germany so i have left the normal school with 16 after this i have visite a professional school for 2 years to become a beautician but it wasnt enough for me so with 18 i have decided to visite a what we call here a second chance school where you can make your grades for university even when you dont have visite a gymnasium in the first place. you only need to have a graduation from a professional school before do to this way. so its possible to upgrade your education after all when you want and put the effort in :)
I've learned three years to get a nurse (Krankenschwester). Part in nursing-school, part in hospital.
Now they go to a academy for nursing ad study it. I had to decide if I would be a nurse or a childrens nurse. Now the first two years are together, for chidrens, grown ups and old people. After that you can decide which way you want go and learn a third year to get an exam. Than you are "Pflegefachfrau/Pflegefachmann" for childrens, grown ups and old people.
i was in hauptschule and after that i was trainee for 3 years and graduated. i decided to do something different after that.. i was twenty and went to BOS. there i made my abitur and after that i studied. good thing. during BOS i got 700 euros per month for "going to school". so i went to school 5 days a week and worked 35 hours a month in a theater to get another 450 euros. so during BOS i was living in my own flat already. it was an amazing time.
After elementary school i got reconmendet to "Hauptschule" so i attended at a School where you have "Hauptschule" and "Realschule" at the same time but different classes. In class 10 i got to the higher educational Hauptschul - Klasse where my main subjects are the same as in the "Realschule" . at the end i got the same degree as the better people of the Realschul - Klassen and was like placed under the top five of the whole school year. After that i went to a vocational school "Berufsschule" to make my A level but i didnt like the teachers or the school in a whole and i failed hard. I took a year of social work and then got into my "Ausbildung" (training) as an IT guy and now study IT focused topics. My instructor said i was like in my first year better than the current third year apprentice. or something. So i still have to learn stuff but can focus on things I enjoy.
Hi Austrian here!
The system is pretty similar here, so I won't go into the few differences.
I got my Matura (Austrian equivalent to Abitur) and tried to study at a University, but droped out due to my social anxiaty at the time. After I droped out I did 3,5 years of vocational training as an IT-Technitian, and have been working in the field ever since.
FYI: I attended school from 1971 until 1984 in Germany and qualified with an Abitur for university.
I agree with the facts Feli presented and most but not all of her opinions.
Children from lower socio-economic and/or migratory backgrounds tend to have more problems in school - but that is not an inevitable situation. Many primary schools nowadays have programs to help these children with additional tuition for the main topics (German, math, and science). But that's a rather recent development.
My father was an unskilled laborer and my mother was a chronically ill housewife. They couldn't help me at all with school or homework. I had to manage on my own and so I did.
In "Oberstufe" (years 11-13) my school received a big influx from other schools (we were about 100 and got at least another 100 new pupils), all the pupils from Haupt- and Realschulen that didn't pass the language threshold (6 years in one language, mainly English and 4 years in another language, mainly French). For passing the Abitur you must have had lessons worth of 6 and 4 years in two languages. So, all pupils that didn't pass this barrier had to attend intensive courses in French (3 years, but with the same curriculum of the 4 years from 7th to 10th grade) in addition to all the normal lessons in Oberstufe. This was a hard and difficult program but with the exception of maybe 5 pupils we all passed the Abitur exam.
One of my sons is on the autism spectrum and always had so many problems in school, all the twelve years from 1st to 10th grade (8 years before he finally was diagnosed with autism and got a school support assistant) and he passed with the lowest possible grade. After almost 5 years of making him fit for work (social and occupational coaching - entirely financed by the state), he started an apprenticeship in a low-qualification profession in 2021 with the goal to be a journeyman in 2024 and continue the apprenticeship in a normal-qualification profession in the same field from 2024 to 2026. But as he has become somewhat ambitious he was promoted to the normal-qualification course after only 1 year. He even started to learn Spanish as an additional course.
The system isn't as rigid as it was until the 1960ies. You can move up (or down). It may be difficult and you sometimes have to jump through some hoops but it's doable.
Some people are just not meant for higher education, they prefer to work with their hands. Why should they suffer through calculus or Goethe? And to be a Geselle (journeyman) or even a Meister (master) brings a high social standing - and in any case it's better than driving a cab while having a university degree.
Hey Mert, I've bingewatched your whole RUclips Channel in a day ansd absolutely love your content. Greetings from Germany :)
I went to a Gesamtschule in Germany and there moving between these school forms was rather easy. I used to be bad at English so I attended the Realschule-Lessons but I was good in German, so I could attend the Gymnasium-Lessons there and eventually my grades were good enough for me to switch my English class to the Gymnasium-level as well and move on to Abitur.
My family moved to an eastern state in Germany when I was attending the 6th class at a Realschule. When we moved, I had to go back to Grundschule (Elementary school) which I was not very fond of 😅. Later on, I attended a Gesamtschule which is in my opinion really the best way. You can attend subjects in general and advanced courses and then get a degree based on which requirements have been met. I attended school with people that got the Hauptschulabschluss whereas I got the Allgemeine Hoschulreife. That was nice 😁 Unfortunately, my Gesamtschule did not go all the way to Abitur (some do). So after 10th grade, I attended the Obestufenzentrum. There you can do Abitur or Fachabitur.
I am really not fond of this whole "Bildung ist Ländersache" (Education is in the hands of the state). The system needs a lot of improvement and should be decided by the Bund (overall government of the country) 😬
It doesn't stop at the Abitur. The problems continue in the Ausbildung.
Later, when I did an Ausbildung, my advisor told me for the Zwischenzeugnis, "It doesn't matter what you get, as long as you pass you cannot get a 1 (very good) anyway because half of the topics in the class you did not get tought yet." That is because of the different Lehrpläne in the different states in Germany.
Abitur (DE) / Matura (AT/CH) = A-Levels (UK) / Senior Cycle LCE (IE)
sure it is - and also as mentioned below - for myself, it is a more of a teachers thinking. when they say, your son, so myself, is intelligent to go to gymnasium, we go to gymnasium. at the age of 10 you don't know which school is the best for you.
but, the german school system works pretty well. getting young aged pupils in different schools, make sense.
in other countries it is absolutely the other way round, i understand, but german schools, unviersities, are among the best all over the world. so ask youself, why!?
To me it is often remarkable how much praise the German school system gets from foreigners, so it was a good choice to stick with Feli's video as an introduction, since she knows about the controversies. The system had been designed, as mentioned in the video, to create separation. Althought society has changed a lot, we still stick to that system and claim that we have overcome the inequality that had originally been intended. But separation does take place on a daily basis, often more subtle, but it is there. And it also ties in with the German federalism that leaves education and its regulations mostly in the hands of the states, so your personal education and to some extent your future career depend heavily on external factors and also just luck
As an American, a school system like Germany’s is a no-brainer. It just makes so much sense
Before hand I like to mention that I come from a poor family where my parents both live on social security and don't have any money. They did their best to support me (i.e. many school trips were just too expensive for us, and I got my first pocket money of 15€ per month at 16 i think), but I was a dumb kid and did not appreciate it like I do now as an adult in my 30ties as well as being lazy and was more trying to look "cool" and not as a dork, despite being bullied every day.
Bullying isn't a problem anymore I am told by friends with kids in school, so at least this got better^^.
I got all basic school degrees. Hauptschul deg. + quali (bavarian special deg from a hauptschule), mittlere reife, abitur.
Basically I wasted a lot of time in the Hauptschule leaving with just the standard leaving certificate cause I failed the Quali Test. Failed to find an apprenticeship a few years, was jobless. Got my ass into gear after my parents proverbially kicked my ass and went to a program (free, provided by city/state) to retake the Quali Exam. Succeeded. Then decided to go to an private gymnasium (had to pay for it monthly) for evening classes while working part time for 4 years to get the Realschul abschluss + Abitur.
Started studying in uni for 1 1/2 years, didn't had the time anymore to continue my Games Engineering (Bachelor Science, and had a numerus clausus, meaning they had a requirement of certain grades cause limited spots. can be circumvented under certain circumstances like in my case since I put myself on the waiting list and had several years of work experience. and a requirement of grades of an average of 1,5 or better in the abitur. I had 4,3 or 3,4? cant remember, nobody cares about your degree or school diploma after having job experience xD.) studies. Since then stayed just in the work world.
I got a part time student job as a programmer in uni, and from there switched companies 2 times till today and earn a decent amount of money as a single living alone (52k€ per year comes to around 2,7-2,8k€ per month after tax), and work for a company with thousands of employees as a systems developer. All without any apprenticeship or uni degree :).
But I also taught myself programming and did work on projects in my spare time for fun and to learn since 18 years old. And think I got my first job in the field in my late 20ties.
So its possible for some fields to work without any degree if you put in the hard work, sweat, blood and tears and got something to show for it :). It also has the benefit of getting instant respect from employers and being seen in a positive light since you show initiative, drive to learn and better yourself and get the job done^^. At least that's what my employers always told me.
All this is about IT basically, of course you can't just go be a doctor without an university degree. Basically you can work as nearly everything without a degree or apprenticeship, as long as its not something like doctor or teacher. All you need is experience and have something to show for it. At least that is my experience.
Personally I went to Public school and I always thought at Private school you pay for the grades and not for the education
20:00 I went to a private Protestant Gymnasium, but it was simply the only gymnasium present in our area and the „Protestant“ part was only visible during a mandatory 15 minute chapel service for your and the one lower or upper grade every 8 weeks on Wednesday.
So it isn’t even worth mentioning.
Every religion went there, it was just like a public gymnasium just with our parents having to pay 50-100€ per month per kid.
I personaly graduated after 9th grade from my old school and the Teachers always compered us to the Students on the Gymnasium, they always said we are dump and shit.
also the Gymnasium which was conected to my school had much things on there schoolyard, which is kind of not fair...why kids on a Gymnasium get more than Kids on other schools ?
btw i am 18 now and i made my Mittleren abschluss ( 10th grade) and have a nursing education.
Private schools in germany I think are not so different to public schools in the quality. Germanys education is ruled federal so the quality differences comes from the different managed education by the administrative politicians in the 16 different federal states in germany which are giving direction for private schools too. There isn't even a debate (so far as I noticed) about a difference in acceptance or knowledge here dealing with private or public. It's not they way... ah school blublub must be good because it's private. The motivation to send the kids to private schools I think is that private schools can sort out migrants or other not wealthy people so that kids there learn more easily - what eventually ends up in better results. And in public schools teachers are often missing / are ill and there are big classes but not in private schools I guess.
In germany you can educated yourself more to climb the lether up.And they even pay you a Umschulung/retraining for reason
There are private schools in Germany (also religious). But they have to follow state requirements, otherwise their qualifications will not be recognised. State schools have a better reputation. Anyone who is sent to a private school often has to listen to the mockery whether they are too stupid for normal state school and need special help.
Ok Hauptschule went to grade 10 not 9. You could also get the same sent off like on the Realschule. The three types just sort you in according to your skill level but the schools are combine really.
Perhaps my personal "story" is a bit unique: I got a recommendation for Hauptschule because I was so quiet in school and one teacher thought that I would basically "drown" in Realschule - I really wonder what she imagined what school life in Hauptschule may look like for a child that is as quiet and "shy" as I was.🙊 I personally think I'd rather "drowned" there socially as well as academically than in Realschule. However, my parents ignored the recommendation (also because another teacher thought it was wrong for me) and so I went to Realschule. I am diagnosed with social anxiety and probably suffered from it or something that "preceded" it when I was a child. But back then I was undiagnosed, in fact that was the case for a rather long time.
Today I really hope/wish that all children get the help and support they need. It's not always due to laziness or "minor intelligence" when children perform badly in school (oh and in my case it was "mündliche Beteiligung" that was really bad. In Germany it is crucial for students to participate verbally in class) and I hope that teachers nowadays are more educated about that and can offer the right advice (like "that child should be checked by a psychologist"). Of course that should be the case in every country, but I think that in Germany if a teacher thinks you'll fit best in a certain school type it might really define your future under certain circumstances.
@ stef: du bist vielleicht auf einer anderen ebene, der oder die beste. schule und abschluss, heisst nicht, wir sind besser oder schlechter. ich habe uni-diploms und freunde über alle schichten. drogen-kinder, die ich genauso betreue wie traumatisierte flüchtlinge, nicht nur ukrainer. es ist meine aufgabe zu helfen, ob ich nen iq von 125 habe spielt gar keine rolle. ich bin da als mensch und helfe.
dein post macht mut, und ich finde wir sollten mehr respekt zeigen. mein iq ist irrelevant, 132, um ehrlich zu sein. aber ich helfe überall, den armen obdachlosen und den flüchtlingen. ich habe 14 leute bei mir wohnen, von allen ländern. der gegenseitige respekt das gefühl, was wir geben können, ist unbezahlbar. sie respektieren mich, meine familie, kultur, ich nehme noch mehr auf, wenn es sein soll.
@@bearenkindercool ja, gegenseitiger Respekt ist natürlich wichtig und Hilfsbereitschaft lobenswert. Und ja, natürlich hängt der Wert eines Menschen nicht von Leistung oder Status ab. Ich finde es nur sehr schade, wenn Menschen aus welchen Gründen auch immer Chancen verwehrt werden (und das gilt genauso z.B. für Menschen aus "unteren" sozialen Schichten, die das Pech hatten, in eine ungünstige Umgebung geboren zu werden, wofür sie nichts können und was sie sich nicht ausgesucht haben) und denke, dass das durchaus ein gewisses Problem in unserem Schulsystem ist. Und Schule und Abschluss bestimmen nunmal mehr oder weniger über die Zukunft eines Menschen, jedenfalls hier in Deutschland sicherlich relativ stark, vielleicht mehr noch als in vielen anderen Ländern.🤔 Auch wenn es natürlich auch hier immer auch Möglichkeiten gibt, weiterzukommen und nötigenfalls auch Alternativen, "Nischen", die man finden kann, etc. und niemand sein Leben lang immer auf dem gleichen Weg bleiben muss.🙂
@@stef987 ich finde deine einstellung grandios. ich hoffe wir können helfen. können wir uns zusammentun?
dein und mein wille, beider einstellung, finde ich gut. du bist so ein toller mensch, ich wünschte es gäbe mehr von dieser sorte mensch. stef du bist für mich ganz oben in der skala.
I don't t hink that there is a very high disparity between public and private schools in Germany. I for example used to attend a private catholic girls school in Germany and my family had to pay nothing for it. It all was paid by the richer families, so that the poorer ones (like my parents) had to pay nothing. Even when it came to trips to London or Berlin I had to pay nothing. This school was very social, BUT not everyone could go there. Before there were many tests, many dialogs with me and my mother. They chose very very well. They wanted to know everything about me: first of all it was the best to be catholic for sure😂, but even my hobbies played a role, if there are siblings in this school yet, my grades were very important etc. But if you'll manage to be included it is the best school ever, although it is not seen as sth very special in my hometown. It is told about as about any other public Gymnasium. I had a great time there and over the years they allowed boys too. Unfortunately not in my time.😢
I'm from Germany and I can tell my school time makes me want humanity to end
I really dislike that we still have these different school levels in Germany since the original GOAL of that system was to keep the children in the same class as their parent so that the rich kids could get a better education and go off to college and the poor kids would stay to do manual labor. Of course that isn’t considered the direct goal of that system but as was explained in the video, it still indirectly works that way.
I do see the advantages of different times of graduation (if you can call it that) but I think it’s more logical for children to go to the same school and then in that school decide when they want to leave the school and take an apprenticeship or to continue to have the opportunity to go to university, as it is in Gesamtschulen.
That's not entirely true. In the three different school options, you don't necessarily learn things that will have an impact on your later career But these schools are tailored to your personal level, which doesn't mean that you're dumber than someone who goes to high school, but you are It has to be a bit better adapted to the needs of the individual for that not necessarily But only if you go on a hop it doesn't mean that you later have worse job prospects than someone who later goes to university, i.e. studies Even if you get that pushed in these days, it's not true It used to be like that, but nowadays many companies are looking for new blood from Alfredner It is also known as a skills shortage
If your grades are going better you can everytime change the school
Dear Merl, can you put in subtitles please? With your speech impediment it's sometimes hard to follow. Thank you!
Yes, Mert's dialect is a bit difficult to understand for most Germans, but I like it. It's not meant to be disrespectful, but to me, it sounds very funny, but nice and interesting as well. And if you ever stayed in Australia for 15 months or in Newcastle Upton Tyne for five days, you won't have a problem with Scottish any more. 😂
The Bundesländer rules for school are very simular
I'm not so positive with the german schoolsystem. In my opinion switching the intended profession doesn't work while you go to school. So maybe you tried the wrong one and have to start allover again in the worst case. Thats nothing germans really consider much during the school years. School is very structured an institutioned anyway so most of us rather just trust blindly in it and look out where it leads them after school at all than to think about what they are interested in within school. And if you are not at a Gymnasium and the education is not that good by definition you think even less about what you going to do... in contrast to Gymnasium. But at Gymnasium the way to go is clear anyway.
But anyway some start a 'Praktikum' (not/less payed for / not certified-needed Jobs) just to get some experience to decide if it's in your interest or work certified at it or start for a few days or weeks a job during school-holiday or while they do school to find out... or just have a dream job or so. Many people are influenced to a profession by the professions of their parents because the parents are able to help them in their own profession more easily.
I think why germans are not doing all 'Gesamtschule' is because Gesamtschule is historical the latest form (not sure) and in the beginning 100 years ago when school was created or so there was school for basic jobs and Gymnasium for academic enivronment already the intended way and gets to the actual day the highest acceptance in society and Gesamtschule was lately created because the soiciety lost too many children early in the wrong way to get them a chance to decide later. So Gesamtschule ist more the alternative than the leading form.
For people coming from poor or middle-class families, it is almost impossible to obtain a higher level of education. They have to take care of their own food, rent, and transportation/fare. In other words, they have to work.
And this is where our nicely calculated system kicks in because:
-> Those who have a lower secondary school leaving certificate (Hauptschulabschluss) usually only get very low-paying jobs that no one else wants to do (especially if they are unskilled and without formal training).
-> A low-paying job only pays the minimum wage (14€). So, you have to work even more to finance your worker/student double life.
-> Low-paying jobs tend to be physically demanding as well as poorly paid. So, you need double the endurance for your double life.
-> Evening schools are called evening schools because they take place in the evenings. If you have a family and want to spend time with them, forget about it.
Furthermore, the German education system is also considered one of the most unfair in the world. Dividing children at the age of 10 into categories of "too dumb," "just getting by," and "allowed to lead a good life" is a crying injustice. And rightfully so, it is criticized time and time again.
When it comes to determining who gets to lead a good life, the parents' occupation is usually taken into account. So, it can happen that you and I are in the same school class, with the exact same grades in the same subjects. But because your father is a lawyer and mine is a baker, you get the recommendation for the gymnasium (college-preparatory school) while I get sent to the Hauptschule (lower secondary school).
Unfortunately, the wealthy people in our country fundamentally block any attempt to bring about change. The argument always goes, "My child should not be in the same class as the less intelligent ones. It will rub off on them!" And with that, every reform is suffocated at its inception. Because those who have money also have influence.
If you cant speak english,you also in USA not succesful at College