Reacting to Tarnished Archaeologist's "Misbegotten, Omens, and Grafting: An Origin Story?"
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- Опубликовано: 18 июн 2023
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Many people have requested I look at @tarnishedarchaeologist's videos on my streams, so I have obliged and reacted to TA's "Misbegotten, Omens, and Grafting: An Origin Story." This is edited footage from my livestream, so if you want to see me react to other content creators, you can check out the "Live" section of my channel and leave suggestions what to watch next in the comment section.
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Игры
I think you're too caught up on the difference between the Erdtree and the Greattree and whether or not they're the same thing. TA is saying that the Erdtree grew from the Grettree's remains/roots, which could simultaneously mean - from a certain perspective - that they are both the same organism but also two separate beings. And is that not dissimilar to the Marika/Radagon situation?
nope
@@the-man-who-bites-his-tonguegreat discussion
More importantly it seems LP doesn't know, or at least 10months ago, didn't know about Melina's observations on Boc. She comments 'I see him crying, from time to time. I think he misses his mother... Does being born of a mother mean one behaves in such a manner?' While not necessarily direct evidence, there's no two ways about the implication. When taken together with all the imagery of people dying by the roots of the Erdree and being harvested from its branches, people are literally birthed from and die by the Erdtree. Even more proof comes from Millicent, her sisters, and how Gowry refers to them as buds and flowers.
More importantly it seems LP doesn't know, or at least 10months ago, didn't know about Melina's observations on Boc. She comments 'I see him crying, from time to time. I think he misses his mother... Does being born of a mother mean one behaves in such a manner?' While not necessarily direct evidence, there's no two ways about the implication. When taken together with all the imagery of people dying by the roots of the Erdree and being harvested from its branches, people are literally birthed from and die by the Erdtree. Even more proof comes from Millicent, her sisters, and how Gowry refers to them as buds and flowers.
I feel like the japanese name for the omens makes sense aswell for TA's theory. The "bad omen" of a grafted tree is to see a new sprout of the original root stock. That sprout is an unwanted child of the original tree, unwanted because you grafted onto it a more preferable tree. So in the context of grafting, a bad omen sprout and an unwanted sprout AKA an unwanted child of the root is the same thing.
The localization seems pretty nice if thats the case since just calling the omens "unwanted children" in english makes them very mundane and doesn't connect them to anything. Though I would only consider this concrete if the japanese grafting enthussiasts referred to these root stock sprouts as "unwanted children" the same way an english speaker might refer to them as bad omens for the grafted trees health.
One thing that I want to say in favor of tarnished Archaeologist's approach is that the Souls games have always been rich with art history.
I can't tell you how many times I've have turned to look out from Firelink shrine or other locations just to see what I feel like are clearly direct, in-game renditions of concept art. Concept art that was often trying to combine meaningful literary and artistic themes from all kinds of work; from the legend of Siegfried and the story of Prometheus, to the manga Berserk and of course The Lord of the Rings.
The artists themselves have clearly spent a lot of effort making their work evocative of historical references and no game of theirs has paid more attention to historical art and forensic level design than Elden Ring. It's clearly a major focus of the game and, even if things have been moved around, there are still critical elements that are clearly meant to be interpreted as part of the story.
The broken doorway to the Erd Tree is maybe the best example of this but Stormveil, the golden city of Lyndell, the forge of the giants and crumbling Faram Azula are also all great examples.
It's the layers upon layers of civilization and the changes to art and architecture that are so compelling to me. Something Elden Ring just feels ancient and rich with history which makes it feel like no other game. =)
This is an old video but ill comment,
I think TA means that the crucible was a transition period between the age before and the age of the red tree. SInce it was wild and uncontrolled aspects of the crucible within beings in the lands between were visible. And then the Golden sapling was fostered and the other scions were prunned and removed and made Anathema to the new order
Perhaps without having background in horticulture, it may be kind of difficult to visualize TA’s analysis at times- particularly with the omen, erdtree, and the great tree- but for any one else that does, TA and co. lay out an incredibly compelling case.
His understanding of basic tree physiology is certainly sound enough for the purposes of the game and it’s really hard for me not to see how it well it harmonizes geographic and locational details of the where the erdtree is placed (jutting out from directly on top of the great tree found in the deeproot depths) visually consistent details (that the omen are root suckers of the great tree- unto which the erdtree is grafted- whose existence is therefore a blasphemous inconsistency with the lineage of the erdtree), and how it rhymes with the games layered thematic strata.
Rather than getting too wound around the axle over the etymology of the word “omen” (although I agree it is worth exploring, but perhaps more so in Sekiro)- I’m basically looking at a picture painted by TA that is like…a photo negative overlaid over the game. Once you see them, the visual and thematic consistencies he builds a case for just can’t be unseen.
I’ve been working within the realm of horticulture and agriculture on farms committed to implementing ecologically regenerative practices for 13 years.
You're using word salad to bolster a really extended version of the "just trust me bro" argument lol
@@humblegamer7876 Look man, I generally have a very difficult time succinctly articulating my thoughts to words, and so the messiness of my post is actually my way of exercising a little bit of restraint. I mean, I got a call it somewhere- I can’t spend all fucking night cranking out a compositionally tight essay in a RUclips comment. I’d be surprised if 10 people fucking saw it- I don’t get paid for it- and ultimately it means very little.
But it doesn’t change the fact that TA’s understanding of pretty fundamental and pretty ancient horticultural principles and practices are convincingly in line with so much that has to do with the nature of the erdtree- physically, symbolically, and conceptually. Tree grafting, pruning suckers, dealing with adventitious roots- these are all things that I happen to personally have experience with on a daily basis, and all I’m saying is that I find the consistencies between those principles I’m familiar with, and what TA is trying to extrapolate by drawing the connection between those principles and with the nature of the erdtree is incredibly compelling
@@Buckinghamrabbitfor what it's worth, I read your full comment and sincerely appreciate the time you took to post it. Reducing your whole commentary down to "trust me bro" is... disingenuous.
Taking into consideration Martin's involvement I wonder what components of the elden ring's lore were concieved firstly in ENG what firstly in japanese.
Good question, maybe following japanese text to find depper meaning isn't as relevant as in DS or BB... The thing I am sure is that Martin was involved in the creation of the different Demigods characters we meet as Radahn, Rykard or Godrick just to name a few. In my opinion, both the birth illnesses of the twins Miquella and Malenia are his creation, even surely the Marika-Radagon merging or remerging, depending on who you ask. I still belive that japanese may convey some added meaning about the Numen race, but it's hard to say if cross translating stuff is really useful or not, I believe its just a different interpretation of the very same lore.
In Martin's talkshow interview, he made it sound like his main focus was the shattering, but I'd have to watch it again to make sure.
I feel like a lot of your disagreements with his statements just come from a misunderstanding of what he says.
First the concept of people being born from the tree and people being born through more "traditional" means is not exclusive. Both can simultaneously exist and probably does in the story. Theres various allusions in elden ring about abhorrent birthing rituals because people from the golden tree look down on sexual reproduction because they are born from the erd tree. Not to mention the lack of sexual drive in people of the golden order alludes that they probably reproduce a different way.
The point of the video is that there was an ancient conifer tree during the age of farum azula that had a large root stock system. Then, that tree was destroyed in some way. A new tree was grafted onto the roots, creating the crucible age, which was a transition age from the dragons to humans, which created the misbegotten chimerical being of multiple lineages.
When the golden scion sprounted and the multiple lineages were pruned away, the age of plenty began and produced at this time godwyn more than likely but after some time vestiges of the old draconic conifier root system starting appearing as omen, born of the erd tree but containing draconic elements signaling the waning health of the tree. This is probably when mohg and morgott was born.
Thanks for the comment. That's a good point about Erdtree birth not being mutually exclusive with birth in general.
As for the Crucible stuff, as I've said throughout the video, I wasn't trying to definitively say TA was asserting things one way, but that that's how I was interpreting things. It's also closer to my perspective that the Crucible stuff would have come after the Farum Azula times, but it wasn't quite clear to me whether or not the TA was saying the FA stuff was also the Crucible.
@LastProtagonist Its always enjoyable to hear your thoughts and such just as said I think its just a misunderstanding because to me it seems clear that he thinks the age of the dragons and crucible age are two seperate ages.
My one big criticism I have with TA's video here is that he made that thread of the Ancient Ertree being a Conifier tree during FA age but didn't at any point made a definitive statement that it was destroyed and that the current "Beech" Erdtree was grafted onto its roots and this period of crown sprouting, and pruning was the Crucible age.
It's highly alluded to, but i feel like it should have been clarified and stated outright
@@hellsing154 my best guess is when farum azula got meteor extinction evented into the sky, which was likely when all the tectonic activity happened that buried a bunch of the huge ancient giants we see stuck in clif faces
@@hellsing154 when you get past the obvious stories like Anri & Horace, Lady Maria, Millicent, etc., you can't really make any definitive statement. Fromsoft is using the bare minimum details to tell the entire history of a setting, even a bit of its pre-history.
My one complaint about every other lore content creator is that they latch onto characters and eventually misconstrue their motivation into hazy speculation, and even end up entertaining cut-content down the line, which is supposed to be no man's land for the most part. They go the way of Vaati and alternate between tunnel-vision or speculative wandering, jumping from one point of interest to the next without adding new things to say.
This is where I tend to favor TA more. He not only looks at the characters & their actions, but also checks the environment, their inspirations, and the discrepancies across architectural strata. While anyone can subscribe to any theory they wish, analyzing Elden Ring's environment & gradual change in architecture as a reflection of our own history in addition to characters & their motivations, is much more informed & decidedly more guided than most other lore crafters. While it doesn't come to anything concrete or conclusive, TA's theories which take note from the RL inspirations of Fromsoft's concepts, paint a clearer picture than anyone else's, and definitely feels a lot more than grasping at straws.
The scaly misbegotten in Castle Morne looks more like he is preaching than praying imo
I think they're cheering, or generally celebrating. Certainly not praying. The only places we see praying misbegotten is in Leyndell and at the Haligtree I'm pretty sure.
FromSoft has been playing with themes that many western fans attribute to GRRM well before the American was invited to play in their sandbox.
Much of the core themes and worldbuilding of Elden Ring would have existed WELL before the game was pitched for development & production would have been underway regardless of GRRM's influence. His additions are unlikely to have been ready in time to use as Reference material for initial art, character & setting design.
Misunderstandings on how much GRRM actually affected Elden Ring (not nearly as much as assumed, based solely on logistics & dev timelines) aside, avian dinosaurs are still very much alive & they are called Birds.
i wonder if the Death Birds existing as a part of the original Life/Death Cycle is directly related to the dragons as the preceding dominant species of the Lands Between. because... dragons are avian dinosaurs are birds.
RE: misbegotten & dragons... rather than Tree Reproduction (which is only ever artistic or metaphoric, as far as i've found), dragon-human interbreeding Was Canonically A Thing. It seems to have generally gone Terribly Wrong but Godwyn's Notably Unnamed Consort(s?) was almost certainly... a dragon.
Godwyn, golden heir of Godqueen Marika & her Elden Lord, would not have had ANY peers amongst the numen or humans, status-wise. Marika's Reign was monotheistic, Marika being the one "true" god, & Godwyn's parents killed off every rival powers that could be an "equal" to Godwyn... except the dragons (though they did try that too).
"Marrying The Enemy" is something that fits with Marika's Aesir Theme, Marika's own marriages, and marrying the previous dynasty is a common method of consolidating power (& asserting Legitimacy). So... the Golden Lineage was probably riddled with hidden Misbegotten, dragon-men, and the odd REALLY strong "human of the Golden Lineage".
It's just weird how far Tarnish Archaeologist went with using Treeproduction to explain draconic human chimeras... when dragons in the Lands Between can & have shapeshifted to "be amongst [humans]". Maybe the dodging of Godwyn marrying a dragon is a product of the Western fandom's assuming Fortissax is Male? That... doesn't really matter much, given the shapeshifter thing & gods are traditionally pretty "fluid" thataways.
So Miyazaki is lying when he talk about the involvement of GRR Martin ? He said that what GRE Martin wrote was the spine of the world lore and was used to build everything else.
Godwyn and Fortissax absolutely fucked and probably had kids regardless of each other's gender, they are both shape shifting genderfluid god super deities that fought to subdual and then died eternally for each other. It's tragically romantic as hell
I don't think he's saying that the Erdtree created humans, just that humans basically "conquered" it by having "their" scion become the dominant one so much so that it became the whole tree, excluding everyone else from the birth and rebirth of the Erdtree/Great Trees powers. Thats why Marika and Godfrey and surely many others were humans long before the Erdtree, same as how the ancient dragons probably existed long before their previous Great Tree, and that both humans and dragons probably existed in the earlier death bird "black spurce" Great Tree times. The dragons that were born from the ancient dragons reign is probably the "de-evolved" dragons we find everywhere, which is also what informs the other chimera features of their Great Trees root stock.
Thats how I see it at least, the regular dragons being to the ancient dragons what misbegottens and omens are to humans. It seems to be a feature of the roots which might be because all the other previous Great Trees are graften onto it, injecting more and more variations. New dragons and misbegotten might just have feathers because of the earlier twin bird times for example.
It's all speculation ofc, but to me it makes sense.
I think part of the issue with the "great tree/Erdman tree" thing is that its possible (hell, likely even) that all forms of the big tree were called the "Erdtree" like the ancient dragon tree, when TA claims as being more conifer like, all the way to the current big Golden tree we know as the Erdtree.
Which might make sense with some aspect of how Japaense culture apparently views continuity of structures. With rebuilt forms of a structure being basically the same as the original structure (according to one post I read so grain of salt and all).
But I understand TA wanting to be a bit clearer and dividing between ancient forms of the Great Tree/Erdtree, and the modern form of the Erdtree. Especially ad the Erdtree seems particularly non physical at this point in time, and that might mean something
The issue with that is we're explicitly given a timeline of when the Erdtree came into being: the War Against the Giants.
"Thought to have been used to hone the weapons of the champions of the War against the Giants at the birth of the Erdtree."
"The ancient dragons, who ruled in the prehistoric era before the Erdtree, would protect their lord as a wall of living rock."
Part of TA's issue is they don't really lay their cards on the table, so it takes a lot of guesswork trying to figure out where everything fits in in their chronology, and when I'd initially watched this it was because someone recommended it to me and I didn't know I was "skipping" videos.
@@LastProtagonist hmmm, true enough. But then that just kinda means that possible great trees of the past wouldn't have been Erdtrees.
But that doesn't help to establish if there were any great trees.
My gut feeling says that there would have to be. Cause the crown sprouting/Crucible story seems decently plausible.
Serendipity, or convergence?
He wasn't saying humans directly come from the urd tree exactly he's saying the magical tree affects births in the lands between
Also yes omen still exist in the golden order that's why the royal omen exist
TA content is as close to cannon as YT lore video can be. The guy even linked the 2 and 3 fingers to their real world history inspiration. The lore of ER is all metaphor for real world religious history, Christian/Roman history more specifically. All backed up with solid irl history. It's amazing how he nailed down Martin's inspirational foundations.
P.S. dude, it's all arguable, it's intentional.
Pssst...
V., The Crying of Lot 49 and Gravity's Rainbow
inspired the doll (Gehrman's and Ranni's), the Sacred Tears (Caitha's and the Erdtree's) and the Prism/Rainbow Stones, respectively.
Waterfowl references Foul Water/Waterflow but also the migratory *V-formation* flight pattern of birds.
Basically, Miyazaki blends Perennialism, Pessimism, Postmodernism and "Weird Fiction" (fantasy/sci-fi).
@@core-nix1885 right, I get that the rabbit hole goes basically as deep as you want. I get that it's intentionally done so that everyone's interpretation may be different, yet valid. I'm commenting on how George R.R. Martin's foundation for this story is demonstrably rooted in early Christian history and how T.A. presents it all. The guy clearly has deep academic knowledge of world history and archeology.
I would love clarity on what exactly in Elden Ring lore is Martin's brainchild and what is FromSoft's tho.
@@oldschoolrpg agreed, bro. I was just pointing to Thomas Pynchon as a major influence.
There's also Oswald Spengler, Frithjof Schuon and others but, yeah, the rabbithole gets pretty deep.
The *Logos* is a major symbol of the series. In both the sense of Heraclitus and in the sense of Christ. The unity of opposites. God and Man. Man and Woman. Erection and Erosion. Etc.
" *In the beginning, everything was in opposition* to the Erdtree"
@@oldschoolrpg oh and Altus Plateau is a reference to A Thousand Plateaus by D&G (see: arborescence) and Marika/Radagon are a "Body without Organs" like Filianore's egg, or the mummified hollows from DS2.
sorry I can't hear you, TA's meaty, thick academia is too far in your mouth ;3
39:18 Marika, Governor of California
7:19 it doesn’t matter if it’s reused assets in this case, they are placed where they are to tell a visual story. Fromsoft is more visual than item descriptions
You seem to have missed Melina's obscure dialog about Boc, about him acting that way because he is 'born of a mother.' Which is strange, since Melina refers to Marika as her mother, yet she doesn't know how people are born? That taken with all the tree birthing imagery, the corpses reabsorbed into the roots at the catacombs, Gowry calling Millicent & her sisters 'buds' is clear and plenty enough evidence that the lifecycle of the peoples who live in the Golden Order are inextricably tied to the Erdtree itself.
I think you should really watch all of his videos on your own time and then make a mass counter argument video if you still disagree with his conclusions. A lot of what you nitpick now he clarifies in later videos, like the chronology of Farum Azula and how Erdtree worship changed over Marika's reign.
Idk man halfway through sounds like youre reaching for critiques. Watching it with you is making me more sure of his interpretation.
Yep
What's annoying is how he doesn't explain why he disagrees most of the time. Like with GRRM's involvement - he just says, "I don't think he has as much involvement as people think, just because I think so." That's what makes it come off as smug, even though he keeps insisting that this is all up to our interpretation.
I wanted to see your reaction but the critique at the beginning is just not too coherent to me.
You’re talking about real archeological methods plus understanding the type of writer GRR Martin is and Miyazaki world building techniques.
This is the way my friend.
I never seen somebody react to someone else’s lore video before I didn’t watch this but it’s most likely a nit pick video of criticism and doubt
The Erdtree isn't pyrophytic. It's a cardinal sin to burn the Erdtree. That point is irrelevant.
10 minutes in and this is already incredibly annoying.
There is an animation of the misbegotten. It doesn't matter if it was explicitly animated to invoke that they are praying, but the animation is clearly being used to convey that at certain locations.
You're incredibly annoying.
Getting vibes of a 20 something year old being overly argumentative, contrarian nitpicking and clearly holding the Japanese version of ER in higher regards while comparing against a video that uses the English version, kind of dumb.
Wow the way TA interprets some of the iconography would make you think that he'd argue that people with jackal heads in egyptian hieroglyphs were real-life hybrid beings.
No he would interpret them as dieties depicted as hybrid-beings, which they are.
Elden Ring is in a fantasy world with dragons and ginger women being literally born from rot plants though.
with all due respect, i think you value too much original japanese text that the devs used, japanese kanjis are extremely ambiguous and could mean numerous things, and i also think you underestimated how much george r r martin has influence in Elden Ring, Miyazaki said he gave him some restrictions and he wrote the world wich elden ring takes place, it means he wrote every rule that the world must follow such as the trees, sprouts, omens, perfurmers, and all those bothanic plant related things, and how the great (in the sense of big) roots of the tree are spreaded across the whole lands between, such impressive size that miquella had to grow his own tree almost on the ocean where the greattree roots won't reach that surething for me implies that the tree is pre historic to grow this large (you can use real trees as a example, a tree it's not just the piece of wood and leaves you see, a tree it may be a gigantic and old system of roots that grew so big that sprouts all around the land) and may date to the start of the greater will, with that in mind you can make the link that the "greattree" of the current order, wich the japanese text implies it is in fact the same tree as all other countless orders, cause it's the same gigantic continental root system, and the elden ring and the runes you use to form the ring, graft the rules of the lands between into the roots, growing a new tree, and a new order. and that's a very western type of writing in my opinion, george crafted the world building of elden ring so miyazaki could tell his story in a world built by a great author, so much things in the game reminds me of george's writing when i observe the lands between and how the visual clues can tell stories by themselves, thats how his books feels, you can sense a world building knowing that the past existed and it lingers on small clues on the present timeline, just like miyazaki's work but in a different, western way, old civilizations, traces of war, some random symbols that doesn't seems to fit certain place, village that know more of the past than the most ignorant people living under this world, i humbly think you should not underestimate elden ring visual world building cause it was developed for 4 years and the world building seemed the most important thing on this proccess, if you take in account that the game came out with incomplete questlines, a whole stat not scaling at all and was fixed throught some months. don't abandon the text interpretation and most importantly do not abandon original japanese writing, but i think you should pay more attention to visual clues in Elden Ring cause the details are absurdly well placed and it feels like a much older world than us can imagine, i strongly believe this game created a new standard to games world building
and you can clearly see george's influence all around it if you read the actual game of thrones books, sorry if i was mean or rude in any part of this text, my intention is a constructive criticism without offending you and i really appreciate your vision too, but i sense that you are too tunnel vision on the text and original japanese text just as tarnished archeology can overly rely on visual interpretations in a lot of times. i see elden ring evolving storytelling in games like cinema evolved through years telling story not only on the dialogues and started telling stories through photography, visual clues, colors, for me Elden Ring is reaching this breakpoint of storytelling that cinema already have cause it's an older form of art than games, (good) games are going through these evolutions right now
I really dislike Tarnished Archaeologist because he takes single graphical asset that fits theory he has in mind. Moulds it to fit his narrative and builds story from it on issue that isnt mentioned single time in game anywhere. People being literaly birthed from Erdtree is good example of this. He takes one graphical asset and inteprits its literaly and announces that it fundamental truth. When nothing in actually in game support it.
True, people are not born from the erdtree, what we see in the catacombs are corpses getting sucked by the roots
He uses a lot of lore to tie it in aswell you're just hating 😂
Well, maybe, just maybe, he simply uses a little bit of logic from what we see in the environnement, as... i don't know... people being absorbed in the roots of the Greattree for instance, in the catacombs ! Now you can believe that people are born or not from the Erdtree, its not my point. But I hate reading comments about people being so adamant that theorists MUST use all the goddamn text descriptions of the game, as if we were all nerds and obsessed with that kind of... thing. Keep your puritanism for you please, and let people enjoy different perspectives on the lore. You can't stop people from enjoying his content in the first place anyway, so why ramble about it ? Pointless and stupid in the first place.
We do literally see Millicent and her sisters being born from plants though, so it's not like it's a crazy idea. Though TA has never said that people fall from the branches like seeds, it might very well be an implied soul rebirth hindu style, or a virgin birth Mary style, all controlled by the Erdtree.
But to say that it definately isn't the case because people being born from trees is too silly is in itself extremely silly considering that the game has very clear and defined senarios of people being born from plants.
These comments are painful with all the TA fanboys coming in to complain when you pick holes in their favorite version of the lore.
I think a lot of people's gripes are the fact TA clarifies/contextualises all of his statements better in the sequel videos because he does series on a certain topic. Like I get TA is only guessing like the rest of the loretubers but it's probably the amount of work he puts in to tie the art design with the lore etc is why people like him.
Nobody want to know what is the true canon of ER, TA is popular cause his theories are unique and interesting, don’t care if he doesn’t have undeniable evidence for everything.
I don’t understand why people take this so seriously, like is it allowed to have fun ?
The words of a bitter and non clever theorist, if you were one at all. It is not because LP has some critics, even if I heard him being a little harsh at times (maybe for his own reasons i don't care) that you can lack respect with the viewers that enjoy TA's work, now GIT GOOD in silence por favor.