I agree. Community is important, especially if it is a healthy environment that also promotes personal/individual growth. If we are to have temples, perhaps it would be a better idea to make them public in its administration and not controlled by a private group, but rather somewhat like a community-centre model, like local associations with social and cultural purposes. It is important to allow people to have their own moments with the community and also their own private moments.
This right here! The faith and the praxis of pagans (in my opinion) is an almost purely singular experience. Getting together for ritual/festivities is a different matter. Putting a temple up for the sake of routine worship of these gods seems counterintuitive to me. Being out in the natural world is a far more potent way to connect.
@@ArithHärger I think allowing non practitioners in would be a bad idea. It would become more of a tourist attraction than a holy place, especially given the lack of respect most people have for paganism in the modern world already.
I believe we need spaces to share sacred experiences and events as a community. We also need sacred places for burial and other life events. I believe temples and sacred sites can serve as a focal point in a Pagan community. Yes you can find the sacred in any place, but having a focal point of gathering is important. I also believe our sacred places should remain relatively neutral, upkeep can be shared by many different branches of Paganism, avoiding indoctrination and close mindedness
The Apaches here in Arizona hold their ceremonies at what is called "holy grounds" a special place that is in the outdoors. I've been there a few times. Perhaps some branches of paganism can adopt this practice more. Not necessarily a temple but a designated place to hold ceremonies.
Such a concept (which I like and support) existed in many ancient paganisms. Specific holy grounds or spots. For Western Europe, for instance, several on hills and groves. In my country (Portugal) and in the UK and France such places can still be known through the study of several toponyms, especially those that still hold names derived from a Celtic language or dialect. Central Europe also had such spaces, mostly in groves, while in the west hills were far more common to be holy grounds and dwellings of local deities and other beings.
I’m so grateful for this! It addresses and underlines the reasons I’m still a ‘lone practitioner’. When I express these things to pagan communities I’ve interfaced with, I’m often met with derision, whether that is direct or silent/passive. Every pagan group/org I have interfaced with in America seems to have a modern, western politick that is a more primary animating spirit than the spirit(s) of paganism themselves. As a consequence, I always find myself withdrawing back to the solitude in nature to interface with the forces I've grown so close with since childhood- whose face I recognized far later in life in the symbols, myths and motifs of Paganism. This relationship and way of* seeing and being, coming before the latter, the latter just giving name and a bit of structure to what was already very much there for me. I too fear the institutionalization of Pagan beliefs/practices. Orthodoxies will and already have begun emerging, and what Freud described as "the narcissism of small differences" is easily observable. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth... I’ve reflected and meditated on this a lot, and am actually pleased to see other minds coming to similar conclusions and expressing the same apprehensions. Public shrines, for intimate personal practice in the sort of special spaces I find in solitude on my off trail journeys is something I think about often and contemplate how to go about making a thing. I have private shrines in very special places, and sometimes feel like I’m being selfish in keeping some of these lovely, powerful spots so secret and private. But, I also feel so strongly called to protect the spirits and conduit like nature of these little places, and deeply worry about their vandalism and destruction in the manner one does someone dear to them...
I feel the same as you - with the exception that I do not even know of any "Public shrines"! 😀 I do not attempt to "proselytize" others - though I have run into a few people that I (somewhat) share my beliefs with. We (IMO) are all on a long journey through life and I can not imagine trying to "lead" someone else when our individual journeys are so different. Maybe that is a reason I have heard the term "cookie-cutter Christians". Will have to think about that. Anyhoo - blessings to you in your path! 😀❤
Same . I live in a micro climate . It's the highest spot in my county . The wind is incredible and the lightning is terrifying ( I was hit by it this fall when it blew out of the wall in my livingroom ) . Last summer I discovered purple coral mushrooms , Jack in the pulpit and black birch growing in the lawn . I've decided to let my lawn go completely wild as an offering to the plants and spirits up here . This will be my temple and , I guess , they will be my community. Blessings.
I had a personal shrine put up along a shore where most no one goes. Yet it was torn down 3 times. I felt like rebuilding it a 4th time and leaving a note saying "do I tear your church down!?"
@@sarahgilbert8036 I find it ironic that the same people claim that "God is everywhere" (Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent) yet also believe their God can only be found in a "church" and would see to despoil any other recognition of "God" - like having an shrine or altar residing in Nature.
Greetings from the Texas Gulf Coast, USA. Thank you for putting these thoughts into words and sharing them with the heathen/pagan community. I adore the idea of shrines. Heathen/Pagan temples? Not so much for similar reasons to your own. Gatekeeping is a "thing" in our community; a contagion from the monotheist era, I suspect. In Nature, it's you and your Holy Ones; you and the Lordly Ones; you and the Spirits o the Land. Thank you for your well produced videos and well researched topics.
I think there's a great chance for shrines to be reinforced. Speaking of my own country, just as an example, from time to time if you go around the countryside, and in places closer to ancient sacred sites, you still see that many people leave some sort of offering, and they don't have to specifically be pagan, but it is embedded in the folklore-mind. We also have a thing called "alminhas" (Portuguese for " "little"-souls ") or "petos de ânimas" (Galician and Portuguese-Galician for "pockts of souls"), these are little shrines you find in old roads, new roads, in villages in the countryside. These are literally little houses or little temples and altars where you stop for a moment to say a prayer and sometimes alms for souls. It is also common to find lighted candles and lamps, left by people passing by, or even other offerings such as flowers. These are Christian, but they replace the old pagan shrines, some of these are even houses of saints (sometimes of multiple genders) replacing shrines of the old deities and local spirits that used to be in these spots. It wouldn't be hard to have pagan shrines again.
Gatekeeping has always existed in pagan communities, if anything moreso than in monotheist ones, so saying it's a contagion from monotheism is absolutely ridiculous. The elysian mysteries in Greek antiquity, certain ancient cults of Odin, indigenous American practices and various other pagan rituals have always been gated practices. I never understood this modern notion of everything being available to everyone.
Brilliant. You hit the nail right on the head. Truth is, for some, hard to take. Blessings,❤. Edit: I hope your feeling better. You looked in fine form in this presentation.
Communities are useful as long as they are not attempting to control everyone. many men into Asatru are also military or ex military and they don't realize how conditioned they are. I am keeping it solo for now- Glad this channel exists!
You brought up wonderful and poignant points about modern paganism. If paganism (in whatever flavor one follows) is to firmly establish itself then it must start at the individual level first. While temples are a desire for many to validate their own individual beliefs, the pagan community can't even agree upon aspects of the gods, nature spirits and so forth, because they're lacking actual knowledge of history; nor are they willing to be honest about their religion (wicca in particular). There are other issues of many cosplaying their religion as (authentic practice), lack of spiritual identity within their own beliefs, etc. I believe proper home altars, personal devotional practice, and shrines for local spirits would be a better way to move forward at this time,
Interesting!!!! Personally I have a nemeton space in my yard with a Corymbia citriodora tree and other native Australian plants! I mostly use my space for meditation and also to pay respect to the people who lived on the land previously (the Gunnai/Kurnai) as well as my own past family. ♥🌳🌾
one of your best videos brother... wonderful to find you are posting again... a subject Ive struggled with for several years now... my current view is that a temple is only useful for sharing collective festive celebrations... and even that will compromise individualist approaches to deity.
I find the idea of shrines, as you present them, extremely compelling. If we're going to do the temple thing, I think this is the best way I've seen suggested.
😂 Good points about the A.I. Arith. Science and science fiction have some explaining to do. 😂 Thank you for another fantastic video and I hope you're feeling recovered from Covid.
I'm a pagan animist, emphasis on animist, lol. I don't always agree with you Arith, but I do always listen carefully and appreciate your insight. In this case I agree 100% and also believe we cannot, as pagans, allow ourselves to confine our beliefs within temples. I'm a 4th generation American, I don't have access to the land of my ancestors, and perhaps will never see it. But, through my own practice here and searching out Native American sacred spaces that the Native tribes are willing to allow the use of, because in Native American Indian culture, an animistic practice, the land doesn't belong to anyone, yet it belongs to everyone with respect for it. A movement as pagans(in general) to reclaim and give back these sacred spaces to the indigenous people, would allow a great start at broadening the community and allow a natural combination forming mutual respect for beliefs, each other, and respect for the sacred areas itself, for use by all pagans, indigenous or not. I don't think temples is the way to go about it myself, let's take a chance as pagans to secure these areas, giving back to the indigenous people for the future of all pagans. The are MANY ways pagan/animistic people of all types can agree to work together to protect these areas for our descendants.
It has been my observation that faiths which interact on any level with an organized religion tend to absorb its characteristics, whether intentional or not. In the early days, Shinto largely resembled many other “animistic” religions, but when Buddhism was eventually introduced to Japan, Shinto began adopting permanent places of worship (whose architecture was even influenced by Buddhist temples), a written code that standardized certain religious functions of the state, and an institutionalized clergy. This was due not only to gradual Buddhist influence, but sometimes as a deliberate reaction to resist the incursion of a foreign religion by solidifying existing institutions (though practicing both Shinto and Buddhism, sometimes simultaneously, eventually became the norm in Japan). While I understand the objections to this type of institutionalization, it may simply be the natural course for faiths which exist alongside an organized religion. This also isn’t to say more personal practices should be done away with, as many people in Japan still observe personal practices which often do not conform to “orthodoxy”, only that gaining any sort of institutional legitimacy may be in the movement’s best interest in the long term. I fully agree with the sentiment of sharing or seeking the permission of indigenous people for use of land, though. Between different indigenous communities, even across oceans and continents, it’s usually standard practice to observe each other’s protocol when seeking use of land or resources, particularly those of the “host” group. Sadly, in Hawaiʻi where I’m from, it can be assumed that almost no structure today was built with these considerations, and sometimes in direct defiance of the old order when Christianity was first introduced. The only places left to observe the Hawaiian religion are in the home, the few remaining pre-contact religious structures that survived destruction by Christians, or the few reclaimed areas which often exist in between what has been built by others.
@@TheKalihiMan I think that conformity comes from society itself as well. Given that most people have lost touch with the natural world, it seems only fitting that they prefer a temple or indoor type places. That's a shame about Hawaii, but I think also we can turn the clock and attitudes of people back, to when animistic meant a relationship with nature, and it's sacred places. But that starts with organizing ourselves and metaphorically fighting for control of those places back and opening them up to pagans who respect those areas and the cultures behind them.
I don't consider myself a pagan but I loved watching this video, I agree in so many of your ideas. It was so refreshing and empowering to listen to you. I feel greateful, thank you.
Rather than going straight away for the grand temple I think it would be cool if Pagans built more humble wayside shrines that anyone could afford to begin with, and then maybe some of these could grow with time and expand into larger structures as they gained in popularity. Seems like the most natural path to me. Probably what happened in most cases in history too.
I've been watching your videos for some time now, and they're all wonderful. But this one, above all, should be required viewing for anyone looking to building a pagan community. It touches so much, but especially how our consecrated spiritual spaces need to manifest organically from the people themselves, and not artificially created by some appointed religious organisations. I think your idea of shrines versus temples is apt, because pagan peoples had been honouring the divine thousands of years before political structures developed their state-run temples.
You make so much sense when reflecting on our culture at the beginning of this video . Also , it's been a fantasy of mine for about thirty years to have a community temple to celebrate the pagan and natural things that I hold sacred .unfortunately my area is overcome with the christofascist ideology that is swallowing my country . Upon listening to this all the way through I've been inspired 🐣
@@Bb-xq7gk I say what I mean . My country has told me that I am a breeding slave . They have said I am mandated by law to carry a pregnancy to term even if it has no skull , is the child of my rapist or even if I am 10 years old and it is my own sibling . If that is not Fascist then I don't know what is . I know nothing about Islam therefore I have nothing to say about it .
Yes! Ty brother, I love how insightful your videos are and I agree. 100% . Temples would be good if we were still a people that harbored a family state of mind but these days adding structure means leaving room for someone to insert things like dogma and gatekeeping. And that is not what faith is all about.
Nature itself is a temple. Old pagan sacred places are enough for visiting. Any river, forest, tree, stone, seashore actually may be a place of worship. No administration to the sacred space - totally agree. Very interesting video and important subject
hello dear Arith - thankyou for your voice - a young man i admire Ren, is putting out a song later today about human's imbalance on the planet. I have to wear a mask even when i go out at 3 am, because of the dryer stench etc factory crap in the air - they just cut our last forest , no place for my friends to live; and i can see lights of an over pass 10 miles away. i wonder why i'm here, except to keep taking food out to feed who needs it. I don't think about the future at all anymore. time to start flagging trees when i can, i'm a member of the conservancy so i flag the protected ones, hopefully before someone bulldozes. Who would think they would just bulldoze trees in February ! my goodness your comment about not bothering about your own safety, we have that one in common. Walking fence borders to stop people from shooting bears. (my friends wanted to lock me in my house)
I feel you. My own country was known for its vast oak forests, and dense woodlands with stags, boars, wolves and bears. Nowadays it is rare to find oaks. It is even rare to have a decent forested area, and bears have all been driven away, very rarely seen in the northern mountain areas closer to the border with Galicia. Where I grew up is possibly one of the very few places that still has forests, but even so it was quite different 20 years ago, it was more untouched by humanity. It pains my soul. There are days I feel desperate watching yet another tree being fell. Trees I had a good relationship with. Trees that housed many animals. People often focus on how "foreigners" come to "destroy our land", and don't realize that we are the ones destroying it all from within. Anyway, thank you for your feedback once again my dear friend. Hope all is well with you and yours despite having to watch - every day - people destroying the natural habitats and ecosystems. There's still hope, and good will overcome, trust in that :)
@@ArithHärger dear Friend = i'm so glad you get it. people don't understand how this is actually physically painful - the grief i feel having to drive by chewed up trees. They did it to create another 'dump site' - yes, beside a 'nature path' - they filled the marshes too. our water is disgusting here - so they dump chlorine in it. the wind is angry i swear , i've never known it like this here. Take care of yourself !
I understand your perspective, because it's one I've held myself most of my life. It was a story shared to me by a Catholic priest I know that made me rethink it, though. I'll share it the best I can. Maybe it can help you think as well. He told me that he often traveled across the county to give service to local senior living centers. Due to the shear number of centers, he only would get to each one once a month. After a while, he got to know most of the people who'd attend the service in each location. And, due to the infrequency of his visits, he'd also know what happened when they'd no longer show up. In one of the centers, there was a husband and wife who'd been together for most of their lives. He'd gotten to know both of them really well. He knew that it was the wife who was truly devoted to God, and that the husband came and went through the motions out of respect for her. Month by month, over the course of a year, he watched as the wife's health steadily declined. So, when he returned and gave his service and saw they weren't in attendance, he grew concerned. He spotted the husband standing in the back of the room after it was over and asked him if everything was okay. The husband explained his wife had gotten too weak to move and was now bed ridden. She'd gotten so weak, she hadn't been able to speak for almost a week. So, the priest asked if the husband would mind if he joined them in their room to pray for her, to which the husband gladly accepted. When in the room, he could see the wife's condition was more than dire. She didn't follow him with her eyes and he knew she wasn't going to make it much longer. He took her rosary in his hands and recited a prayer he knew she was fond of. It wasn't until he was halfway through that he realized her lips were moving along as she breathlessly recited the familiar prayer along with him. It was a small act, but enough to leave her husband in tears. He said she passed on that night. Having always been more of an animist myself, I've found indoor churches and structured prayers recited ad nauseam to be stifling and antithetical to truly experiencing the divine. However, who am I to argue that the elderly couple hadn't felt a true religious experience? I might not get it, and it might even seem a bit dangerous to me (and it might be). Yet, in the end, maybe there isn't a right answer. Temple--no temple. We'll all connect with our gods our own way, and who among us is worthy to judge the efficacy?
Very interesting. I am interested in exploring my spirituality more, and one of the biggest hurdles to me in exploring paganism is the lack of local institutions where pagans congregate. Unlike mosques, churches, and temples which are everywhere where I live.
Hello Mr.Härger, I'm a long time fan of your channel from Sintra, Portugal. I have had quite te experience since I started my journey with paganism and I would love to share it with everyone. Although European, I've come to the realization that we in the western world have forgotten how to properly praise the old gods, my contact with exterior cultures from Africa and the Orient has taught me a lot, since unlike most of us, they live and breath the gods they worship on a daily basis, following millennia old traditions. Since I started to adventure myself beyond the limits of my own pre-judicated ideas I've learned many wonderful things, religious and not religious, unfortunately many of them may upset some people. The closest I've seen of a truly magical and religious experience, along with it's rituals, was in my introduction with the culture of the Iorubá and their religious beliefs. With every initiation I've acquired significant knowledge and power, be through the community or the individual learning, and I'm sure I'm just scraping the very top of it. Temples are extremely important, many of the traditions and knowledge of these cultures are kept behind a heavy veil of secrecy and mystery, some that I'm very grateful to have witnessed, specially the worship of the Egungun, Egbe and Orunmilá. however, individual worship after being initiated has led me to an immense amount of knowledge about myself and the world that is around me. Being initiated is like having a light to walk in the dark, although you can stumble your way into something's, having a clear sight of what you're doing is much, much better. The best part is that through the knowledge obtained via these worship, I've managed to learn a great deal about the gods that roam the lands were I live, where to find them and to please them, giving me the possibility to explore and discover more. In conclusion, opening our eyes to different cultures that kept their animistic side alive, even if they're much different than ours and becoming part of them was a critical step to understand more about animism itself, spirituality and myself, and I recommend it to everyone.
I enjoyed this video. For some years now I have wanted to create a Temple to Poseidon, even though I also work with Gaia and Apollo and starting to work with 2 others but those relationships are just starting. I have thought of a personal Temple on my own land but I have also have thought of creating a public Temple. For the public Temple I would definitely have an open area for the public at the front of the land, a Greek Temple style building to have like a small museum of reproductions of statues and Myths etc and to have a small gift shop or something and a donation box. And the back portion of the land would be to connect with nature. There would be a few ponds here and there and at least 2 Poseidon fountains one in the front and one in the back. I'll probably think of more 😂😂 But apart of me doesn't want all the water features because I live in Arizona and it's a desert landscape and we need to conserve water.
One of the many things I appreciate about your videos is connecting topics with decolonisation and reconciliation with indigenous peoples. As a fourth-generation settler living on stolen Coast Salish land, and as a heathen, I’m conscious of the importance of place in forming identity and spirituality. How settler-descendants like me undertake that in a land far away from that of our ancestors, on land indigenous to others, is something that preoccupies me a lot. I agree with you that when we are rooted to the land, we’re rooted to the spirit, I believe we’re rooted to the ancestors, wherever our wanderings take us. We take them with us, in our ancestral memory, our spiritual DNA. For me, part of the journey of decolonisation is learning about the land where I find myself, and from the people indigenous to it. I can then integrate, with authenticity, the spiritual practices and beliefs informed by my own indigenous heritage. I can establish roots. I also think that a structure (I like the shrine concept) where we can go and present offerings and be in community isn’t inconsistent with the practices of our ancestors. We know they had structures where they gathered, and it is not a stretch to say that ritual practices would take place into those contexts. Also, it’s not always nice to be outside, especially in coastal British Columbia! And it is not accessible for everyone, like the elders and those with disabilities. Thanks so much for what you do!
Really great material. You open your eyes and mind to the perception of paganism. And thank you again for adding Polish subtitles it makes my life incredibly easier
A well argued video.Thank you. I can well understand the lure of wanting to find one's tribe but tribes, like institutions, end up serving their own interests. Those who are unsure or prone to be easily persuaded would be better off remaining a solitary practitioner for the time being. I agree that we need more public symbols of paganism, such as temples, to become more mainstream and accessible to people but a temple is a limiting arena for development. I didn't realise I wanted to think more about this topic until I watched this video. As ever, thank you Arith.
Feng shui is an ancient art and science, this would have some merit in considering a space sacred space. Power places and magical places, such as glens, groves, & valleys come to mind, all part of geomancy, within feng shui. If not for to protect us, to amplify us. Temples are what by nature? If we define this more accurately, we may be able to contribute a more specific shared definition.
This is a really important video. So many good points here. I like the IDEA of being involved in a pagan community, but then it often seems like a group of people with the same exact ideals and beliefs that you shan't stray from or else. My beliefs are my own and are personal, they may align with yours but they may not...and that should be okay, so long as we're all respectful . Focus on yourself, focus on the world around you and less on the Hall, or Temple, or group gatherings.
I think this is one of the most important videos on the topic of neo-paganism. Many people do think that in antiquity the temple worship was the standard, everyday thing. It was not. As a person, who was involved in the building of a modern day pagan temple and who saw the pure idea of common place of worship turn into an institutionalized cult controlled by one person, where no one feels free to be themselves, I strongly agree with Arith on the shrines topic. It is kind of absurd that at one time I was placing the foundations of new pagan temple and in the next I'm feeling better going to the small Christian chapels here (which are small, room sized buildings, open to anyone, that are usually situated on former pagan sacred grounds). So yes, a shrine which is a responsibility of everyone, is far better than a place controlled by one person or a group of persons. Don't dream of the past. It was not a dreamy place. Be present, be here, connect with your surroundings. Greet the big tree on your way to work, nod to the statue of an important local hero, light a candle at your window. It is actually what most of our ancestors did. Thank you, Arith, for doing those clips! It is indeed a katharsis for me, to listen to your lessons!
For anyone in the UK; Asatru UK is a friendly group that focuses on inclusiveness and allowing people to experience their (mostly norse heathen) faiths in their own ways. They had an Althyng this year that was comparatively large and have the goal of owning land / potentially building a temple one day
You make some excellent points. I do feel like temples would be good though should be completely non profit and give back to the community and nature. It should be run by the community with noone at the top. Built on land already deforest and should be reforested around any structures . Ideally open air so still in nature and be open to all. Money would come from hiring out for events such as weddings and parties because why not. All should be welcome if respectful. I do think shrines would be a great middle ground. In my mother's village in Italy they have cute shrines dotted about and it seems as good as any church. My life goal is to buy land and reforest it and make it great for wild life. That would be my personal temple but i would love to see an area to meet other pagans and witches
You made me think of an important point: We are witnessing massive deforestation, and in my own country (as an example) deforestation comes mostly from wood industries and political terrorism. It pains my very soul to see the landscape that I once knew completely devastated. So, it would actually be a good thing pagan communities owning pieces of land, for whatever practice, and reforest the area, turning already existing forests (or making new forests) into protected areas because they become property. This would also be part of pagan activism in relation to environmental issues. I have a similar goal as yours. To buy land where I can live and turn it into a safe haven for several animals, especially pollinators, maintaining a little ecosystem.
@@ArithHärger thank you . From what I hear Portugal is an excellent place to do so due to easier freedoms to own land, though apologies if I'm mistaken. I'm happy our goals are alined . That is something as a community we can make a difference, even if on a small level.
That's a good point about not experiencing the spiritual side just because they're in a dedicated building for it. That's something each of us has to learn to do for ourselves.
100% agree with family, clan, tribe, or coven shrines. Preserve the land as natural and go out there. Add a couple of accessibility related and portable infrastructure. Thanks for this.
Brilliant insight. As an analogy, the surgeon learns his work by watching doing and teaching in short order. The same construct should exist in pagan culture 1. Personal gnosis. 2. Gathering of the like minded. 3. Group Gnosis. 4. Repeat Are there any Pagan animist’s in Portland Oregon area that might be interested in meeting for further exploration of these topics?
Here in New Zealand Māori have their own ancestral lands with Marae (meetings houses) where they gather as a people and continue their old ways. The meeting houses are often in rural environments and so their is also a connection to the land in addition to being a place for gathering. Māori also have urban Marae with Whare meeting houses so that they have rural and urban centers for their culture. So temples is an option for paganism in the 21st century, and there are other options also. In addition to temples, hofs, halls, houses, groves, horgr, sacred spaces, shrines, etc.
Thank you for bringing up the topic! I must add a couple of points regarding your topic of "pagan communities vs personal gnosis". Personal story incoming. About 5 or so years ago I had what some people could call a divine revalation: an entity that called itself Quetzalcoatl appeared in my living room and said that it required my services. I had no magical experience whatsoever and thus I had no freakin idea why I was picked by that thing. Nevertheless, I got a high opinion of myself, even though I didn't say yes or no to this old aztec god. Eventually, I had tried out some shamanic practices by going through initiation with the help of someone I considered a reliable shaman. I practiced it for a couple of years and then realized something. As it turned out, both the shaman and the revelation were full of crap. And not in a "I had no magical powers, it was just a fantasy" kind of way, oh no. It was much worse. Those were just the undead spirits and Quetzalcoatl was simply impersonated by the imps (we have plenty of those roaming around Russia) influencing my perceptions, feeding off my personal energy, making my hair fall off and turning my skin into a potato peel which I didn't pay much attention to at the time. Once I realized it and sought out an honest-to-god magical expert I got myself what you can call a purge: all of their influences and negative energy was scooped out of me. On the very night when that had happened, an outside wall of the house next to mine got on fire for no apparent reason. Luckily, noone got hurt. It became obvious to me that this was the filth that had been inside of me all these years. And the craziest part is that it had never occured to me something was wrong until my girlfriend told me I was acting strange and being unfocused. It's been 4 months since I started down the path of Nordic Tradition and I still have a lot to learn. I can only kinda-sorta glimpse into what Aesir and Vanir are all about as far as "meeting them in person" is concerned. Personal gnosis can be a source of true revelations, but you have to distinguish true Gods from impostors, and this is something that a good pagan temple can provide. As long as you follow, or at the very least know and understand, the traditions of the old (runic poems, Havamal, sagas, also knowing how to distinguish true pagan teachings from christian influences) - you have more chances to properly prepare yourself, to be worthy to stand beside the Gods as their follower. The easiest way to distinguish a true God from an impostor pretending to be a God is this: an impostor will go out of their way to clog your perceptions with special effects, with visions of grandeur, with overly elaborate rollercoasters ("Hey! Look how cool and awesome I am!") - all while sliding some sort of agreement paper under your palm and tricking you into signing that agreement without you realizing what exactly it demands of you. A true God, in my experience, is someone who wishes for you to live a happy, productive, and fulfilling life. They do not need special effects and other shenanigans to prove that they are Gods. But they are also much more difficult to contact. You have to be willing and ready to let go of the life you'd been living before meeting the Gods - and that can be very hard to do, especially if you are stuck in some sort of pathological loophole. As far as I can tell (and this is *MY* personal gnosis), someone like Tyr will not even glance at a human who is a 30 y.o. living with his parents or playing videogames all day long. It's not enough to just not do bad things in life: that just makes you a zero. Nordic Gods, in my personal view, are the Gods that want their people to be better, stronger, smarter, do the good deeds, gain energy and then spend that energy on improving their own lives and the lives of those around you (I like to call that the Fehu principle). And to be that kind of a man or a woman, you have to look for what is old and rotten in your life and, once found, tear it down with tenacity. And you have not be afraid of being alone. Because when you are truly in contact with the Gods, you are never alone. You can ask for their advice and be sure that they will point you in the right direction. So, overall, I believe that a temple that can properly distinguish true Gods from imposters will be a good and healthy thing. The elitism and commercialization are both valid criticisms of that system still.
I learned some of this by trail and error , I have a small group and we founded a temple legally , but as time went on we started dropping the "longing" to follow the church structure of organized religions that so many other Neo Pagan groups have done. Its on going for us to unlearn that and go with the flow of Nature
In real life I'm shy and an introvert. I would most likely be there to listen to you, far more than speaking. In a video I speak more than I speak out loud in my daily life per month.
So well said and a lot to mull over. What I am hating is the Abramic Faith into Norse etc. ie "dying and going to valhalla and being reborn is a favourite of mine I heard." Also of course I also am both Animism and blend of Norse and Celtic Paganism. However, on the holy places for holy places particularily in Ireland all the Holy wells etc. were changed into Early Christian Saints. Saint Bridget comes to mine and others. Also Old Pagan sites the Church built a Church right on them .. then later let said go into ruin and moved into other places towns etc. On the matter of Temples of course example I am now living in Berlin its wild and Green in Parts for sure but I can understand the need say of a place or temple or whatever in an Urban place when you cannot get out into Nature either as much as you want or can. However, when you have a temple you have all you said denial of personal experience and the development of Docturine etc. etc. So its very complex. IM not in favour of Temples but I can understand when some are for migration and other reasons have to go live in very concrete cities where they can go have quite places. Example myself going into Parks trying anything or doing anything will call the Police but there can be Buddist temple bells etc. in Park near me but this is the issues. Too many Christians and Islam view all pagans with distrust and "devil worships" .. Perhaps the re-installment of sections in Public Park with Wood Carved Poles or Standing Stones would be great. Even in Ireland there is section in Kerry I am from in the National Park there where there is a section of the Park with Native Nordic Pines etc. and Carvings to the Old Norse. But also again even about the Town my family moved into Scotia Grave the woman whom gave her Name to Scotland ..ie her followers went onto Scotland has a grave over 7K old now and with Hieroglyphs and Ogham and a bunch of "Fundamentalist Christians went up and vandalised the stones there... makes me mad .. but its all about respect for their Churches. Its difficult .. I think a case can be made for Public Parks with sections to Neo Pagans and maybe in some temples in Cities where its just really all concrete and if you can get out have access to Nature itself its not needed there. The formation of some crazy disguised racists and xenophobes can come with formation of "Temples" and "Communties" unfortunately ..
I have thought about this a good amount myself as well. Instinctually I like the idea of temples, but the more I thought about it your own reservations also occurred to me. I think that you presented an important dichotomy: "Places where people can gather" versus "Like-minded places." It should be possible to have the former without the latter, if we plan ahead when organizing our communal practices. I also agree that it makes little sense to have a site of practice that is in any way removed from the world around us; it seems counter-productive to construct a temple that is closed off to the outside world, a purely human space is counter to the whole purpose of paganism (or at least animism). Any space where we can communally experience gnosis must be connected to the means of gnosis, or else we are just telling stories. If we divest ourselves from the monotheistic conception of worship, I think there are many possibilities for both communal experience and structured gathering places. It just means thinking ahead, as you said, and thinking outside of what most people would see as a "temple" or "church."
The horror of group psychosis, and persecuting dogmas is what pushed me away from Christianity. The last thing I wanna see is the same thing happen to paganism. Love the shrine idea tho....I've actually been playing with the idea of setting one up in the woods out side of my local state park. Would be interesting to see if anyone visited or likely just destroy it
Pros Community space Sacred space A place to leave to Cons The existence of places of power often sets up people for positions of power And this often hurts pagan movements. Possibility of gatekeeping Possible money pits Places possibility for manipulation of the narratives of less experienced or critical spiritual people
Here in the Philippines at the region of Cordillera, some People still practice former pagan traditions which really good, because many degenerate modernity cultures are also beginning to destroy it
It is very nice to know there are a few out there, and would be nice to have more. While I don't believe that its unachievable, its just best to expect that it won't be a quick achievement. I think the reconstructionists have the best bet of making temples, shrines, sacred spaces etc.
Indeed, nature is the ultimate primordial temple!! I guess that in the distant past, humans didn't need temple, for they lived bathing in it all the time. Then we started to cultivate plants and build shelters and I guess that's how the idea of temple may have emerged? I read somewhere that Feng Shui originated back then, first a technic to chose where to grow stuff, then where to build shelter, then cities, etc... Some places in nature have been used as places for rituals for thousands of years, and they've become sacred sites, and some of them have become churches and temples of the kind (maybe through what we'd now call cultural appropriation?), though the primordial sacred stuff there is unmovable, unstealable: it's the ground itself, and I feel it's not just a nice place but a place where there's some particular geophysical phenomena (water table, volcano remain, etc...). Here in France we have some rocks with "cupules": sort of cups carved in the rocks. I found a big rock lately (several feet high and wide). I started to take of the moss and bushes that had grown on it and found that there is some natural basin at the top, so I can pour milk (raw from the farm nearby) in there and it stays. I could even bathe my feet in there. From what I gathered about it, it's the kind of rock that may have been called a "dwarf" further up North. I feel it's got a lovely chivalrous kind of personnality! Then some other kinds of land spirits, the biggest of them, from what I gathered, may find useful to have some sort of harbor built for them so that they may bless a particular human or group of humans. For that kind of spirits, a place like stonehenge may be a bit like a harbor for a big boat, or like an aim/target to help them situate the area where to condense and bless. Me, I have no temple, though I have a big house made mainly of stone, so spirits may consider it as a temple of some sort, though I've had to make it clear it's also a kitchen and the place where I live!
Todo lo que dices esta bien, y es correcto, Gracias por compartir tus pensamientos sobre este tema Arith. All you say it's fine, and it's true, Thanks for sharing your thoughts about this topic Arith.
I don't think today's Pagans are generally in a place to build temples, and I'm not sure we should aspire to do so quickly. A lot of the reasons people express for wanting temples is to "keep up with the Joneses" aka Christian churches. They want mainstream respectability and some Pagan clergy want to be able to make a living off their duties. At the same time, we can see all of the corruption that results from institutionalized religion. Pagans also tend to be grossly unrealistic about money. Temples/churches etc. cost money. Huge, huge money. If you are not personally willing to tithe several thousand dollars each and every year consistently to maintain a temple, you're not serious about wanting a temple.
There is no unified paganism to worry about. There will always be those like me who interacts with the divine on my own terms. With no need for organization to interact. There will always be those who desire a group to be organized, and a community to interact with. Both can exist in the same person. I love to discuss ideas with others. It helps me build a relationship with my own ideas, and learn from how others experience. I will likely never be more than a visitor is any such community, but they are both inevitable and have the potential to be greatly useful.
excellent points. I do think ... it is hard coming from a near universally Abrahamic background to conceptualize a deity-based spirituality without rules and boundaries and authorities and focusing upon the worship of the 'gods'. Even when you are raised un-theistically by an atheist and a person with ..... how to phrase... (An ex-Catholic who does not speak on their current beliefs but has hippie-tastic semi-atheistic?-pagan leanings), in a place so dominated by Abrahamic religions as the US, even in the suburbs of a sizeable and diverse city - it is still so, so hard to escape the notion of 'what religion/spirituality is' - dedicated buildings, entirely required specific literature, a heirarchy of authority and 'holiness' within a group, that getting close to the 'divine' is not a personal option but must be done through someone more authoritative, etcetera. I, personally, have no desire for a temple. I have no desire for a 'church' - I tried that in high school and it was miserable, trying to be Christian. Then I tried being 'Wicca' and that was also so Wrong. My places are the natural world. I am incredibly shy and reserved these days. I practice alone. I do wish I had a guide... but my lack of trust in others would make this very hard anyways. I can understand why some would want them. I would have, in high school, when I was searching. But perhaps... I would prefer it were a community space. Not a *temple*. a Pagan resource center, as it were! With volunteers and resources and maybe some events/outings, visits to places where one can readily find spirits, discussion groups, and tolerance for the experiences of all. I have trouble imagining this being funded, though, as a nonprofit in the US. That is my only frame of reference. Altars.... would be wonderful. I believe that is a reasonable ideal to shoot for. I love it.
Maybe I'm a zealot, I don't know. I think we should be known, though. Shrines, Statues, whatever. We should exist beside Christianity, and should be able to exist beside Christianity. I tire of hearing pagan festivals being threatened by locals with guns. Here, and here to stay. Perhaps growing around that diversity would make individuals more accepting.
You, Arith Harger, are something of a guru for lots of people here. If you wanted the power that goes along with tax exempt status, you could easily acquire it through the presence of a temple of your own.
That's literally what I don't want. I abhor idols, I loathe religious/spiritual guides/leaders, life coaches, gurus and the sort. People don't need to follow. What we need is to exchange knowledge with one another and be free to express ourselves.
As a wicca practitioner I would say my temple is wherever I lay my circle. It can be in nature or in a room. I practiced a lot under a oak tree and this place was sacred to me. But it is true I dreamed of a goddess temple, a devotional place, maybe because of my fascination for hindu religion. But I am not sure it would be a good idea, or more than a dream, for the reasons you have exposed. The idea is not to create something coercitive but to encourage the faith in divine feminine.
ingenuity. Temple should be a place to venerate gods and read the mythology, and recreate the best documented practices as best we can. We should avoid modern dogma from getting in and forming an organized priesthood, because at this time we don't want to sully such great traditions with modern ideologies. A place with statues, to venerate the gods and people can have their own personal practice besides that. No preaching unless it's in a discussion/ debating room but that is separate from religous practice. The Hindus do it well today.
If we want to build a community, it would be helpful to have a gathering place, a place for sharing, talking and practice. An open space for everyone. Without judgmental attitudes, of course.
i can probably come up with a pro and a con of the top of my head Pros- it creates a physical communal space for pagans to practice their religion and do their thing, cons- due to paganism being a fairly small (in number compared to say christianity) group of religions with a long gap in it's history where it was not popularily practiced already existing temples are few and far between and most pagan communities need to come with their own funds and plans to build it which can take years and can cost alot of money
I live in sacred places, and I don't need a temple for my worship since the world and my internal temple is my sacred place. But temples would do great to build community and inhabit the spirits that would join us in those temples. In such a setting, you might meet those who would never have encountered you before, and therefore grow both in world view but in active community.
My own mind has been astir lately, pondering living waddle fences, and rough woven baskets made from dried honeysuckle to foster plants in bush nurseries by the river. I'm impassioned to create domes and arches, swaddled in wild grapes and other fruiting vines, eventually growing a yew 'cathedral' high up in the mountains by similar means. It's a dream, but I figure the domestic portions of the endeavor would inspire others to propagate suitable habitat for themselves and nature. I could never really do a brick and mortar temple... it would end up being a series of aquaponic pond gardens and lush orchards. I would be worlds happier to do that with my community, rather than repeat the conventions of a failing civilization.
Respondendo ao apelo/sugestão, considera-te convidado, quando desejares e puderes, para visitar o Centro Druídico da Lusitânia, as portas estarão sempre abertas, para ti e para quem vier por bem . Por outro lado, subscrevo as tuas asseverações e, em rigor, comungo das tuas preocupações, não é por acaso que recebemos sempre de braços abertos todos pagãos (e até não pagãos) que nos visitam, para celebrar, conviver e partilhar. Parabéns pelo teu trabalho, sempre pleno de rigor, honestidade intelectual e pertinência. Bem hajas. Abraço do Joaquim Pinto - Membro da Assembleia da Tradição Druídica Lusitana.
I'm a big supporter of temples, and halls, and community centers, because there are so few and so there is almost no heathen community. Christians have their church's, Muslims have their mosques, what do heathens have?
I think pagan temples are an good idea because of following points: Cultural hub, is quite important for people to have an safe haven for their culture, to socialize and get in greater touch with the believe. To get on the map, so we dont stay on the fringe of society but to get in the middle of it. To show we exist. To fight ignorance, so that the people realise that theres more than the abrahamic religions.
About temples: on last week I went to another region. I saw many christian temples there... I think: What alternative? Why not another temples? And so on... Sometimes I think that people need another church. I think to make paganist religion organisation... This status open way to get land, and join people... but... I dont know - its hard way Temple could be in forest in field, near water like marquee, or camp. The main idea of temple: collect people for actions in secure place -> its does not matter in building or in park at the city.
Yes I believe We all need to do our purpose why we are here on Earth… Respect for all .. As above so below… shrines are a good place to engage in deity and spirits of the land.
I still have a question. What do you think about creating altars in the home space. According to the Sagas, such were created. Won't it be a more intimate encounter with the Gods? In my area there are no people who follow the pagan path (I am just taking my first children's steps) and with all this I am rather alone. I make gifts and sacrifices to the Gods alone, but I also have nowhere to do it. On the one hand, I'm fine with being alone with it, but also not quite
I think home altars, or any sort of shrines within the private domestic space, are the first things to be created, and nowadays in neo-paganism many people start from there, and then expand the religious out doors. I myself started with a little altar in my room back when I was 15 (and then removed it over 15 years ago). When we are not quite certain where to start, such spaces in our own familiar environment are a good way to give our first steps. It is a little bit like witchcraft, especially through an animistic lens: the space of the Craft often starts at home, and then it is expanded outwards, mapping out the space the witch or sorcerer will work upon and within.
I think temples could be more of a medium for recognition and community than anything else. I’m personally not a pagan, but I’ve felt an increasing interest in the religion over the past several years. I’ve never felt connected with my abrahamic religion to a great degree and it always came off as somewhat violent and hypocritical to me (I’m not insulting the religion itself but thats how I’ve always perceived it). Paganism seems like the best alternative to me and the Animist aspect of the religion actually speaks to me in a way the abrahamic faiths don’t. However, I will say that information on paganism is somewhat sparse beyond old chronicles and online (sometimes dubious) sources. This has made it significantly harder for me to personally get involved with the religion or any of its practices because it’s essentially winging it on the advice of people you can’t really interact with in person. Having a temple could make it easier for people interested in paganism to actually get involved in the religion, and as a byproduct grow the religion, community, and eventually gain recognition. Yet, one of the things that drew me to paganism is it’s more decentralized nature, so I’d say that temples could function more as a place for community gathering , equal discussion, and education to newcomers rather than blind preaching or ministering. Making temples places where people are preached at just dilutes the belief and makes it a form of Christianity or Judaism with pagan aspects or beliefs. Making the discussion mutual and more focused on community gatherings and rituals where everyone has equal standing can help evolve paganism beyond being a copy of Christianity. If paganism really wanted to assign roles to educated people there could be a person appointed as the leader of an individual temple by voting who can lead them in rituals and organize events that the temple community decides on. That way pagans can keep the corruption and elitism of a organized “church system” away from the temples, since everyone is equal in the faith and nobody can truly be considered “holier” or more validated in their own experiences than another. These individual temple leaders can then organize into a council that can decide, equally, what to exclude rather than include as official policy for the temples, such as racist gate keeping. That way no one’s belief is invalidated and the temples cannot legislate the validity of personal experience. Any temple should also be based in nature, and any building could have gardens and vegetative areas adjacent to as part of the temple where people can pray, conduct rituals, and experience nature. The community could maintain these and grow these as a group, sorta as a way to expand rather than destroy nature for the sake of building a temple. Green spaces could also serve as locations for community gatherings, rituals, and celebrations. The appeal of paganism, especially in a modern world, is the independence it provides and the the connection with nature. Having temples doesn’t necessarily destroy this and paganism can make it work for individual experience rather than for the sake of the temples or religious leaders. Temples would also do wonders for education, community, and recognition that could seriously help people, like me, understand and follow the faith better, without risk of encountering less than savory gate keepers and purists who want to use paganism to justify their own prejudices or political ideology.
I’m more of a “Pagan” hanger on as a former Christian. I find the study of our roots titillating. Beyond that basic attraction; I can’t say I feel any particular ability to put the urge to practice a faith more robustly. I’d like to start in earnest though.
Maybe when it rains. Have you considered the fact that it would be taken over by politics straight away? Then those of other political beliefs would be forced out. That's what happened to my last group. Some time ago now but I'm in no rush and very suspicious now. I will not be bullied.
My views are also skewed by personal bias because I do not have access to the sacred sites of Europe as a North American. So, please take this with a grain of salt. I think temples/structures/etc. serve a great function which allows people to practice as they see fit. Most people I know came to their path through solo searching and may or may not find a tribe of like-minded people to worship with. Spaces like this provide an opportunity for expansion in both solo and group activities. However, from a purely N. American perspective, money is a necessary evil for us. In addition to maintaining a space, we have to pay property taxes on the space and land, utilities, grounds maintenance, etc. For myself, I use the free local parks to connect with Earth and her persons because there simply is no other option.
I see the need for many places and structures. The area is as important as any structure. The goal being able to do something like light a fire, or a candle, regardless of the weather conditions at the time. Acoustics. Lighting. Ability to create permanent symbols or symbolic structures that would be immoral or illegal in public spaces. Color. Texture. Privacy. Time of day that a place is accessible. Ability to leave things like sacrifices that will be undisturbed. And space to gather groups of people, and do things which would be viewed as unconventional. I would like to see everything from neolithic earthen works to stave church like buildings to sacred groves with favorable shelter from wind and good acoustics. We need a whole damned culture and space. And we need people willing to build that, and buy that.
Hindu, Buddhist and Shinto have temples. and they are also in the pagan category. you should have one at least, as a part of the culture. this is just my point of view as balinese hindu, our religion is our culture...
It can be hard for someone just starting to connect with someone not only to help them learn but also exchange ideas, but at the same time this can also be a bad thing. For me I started alone, then later both my husband and daughter became curious and now we practice together, however this doesn't mean we do things all the same. Other than old teachings I had from 2 people in my family when I was young, one being born in 1900, my great great aunt who followed her own path, the other was born in 1920, my grandma and what she taught she didn't even realize what she was teaching because it was just ingrained in her life. They both came from the Ozark Mountains, and while much magic was taught and done in a way that it was through, God or Jesus not all believed in this and many of the Mountain folk are breaking away from this. I started with one basic book that many in the US start with, (besides the teachings of long ago, but much of that I didn't really understand until the last 10 or so years and I'm now 57) the book is by Scott Cunningham and it's called Wicca. A guide for the solitary practitioner. While I do not consider myself Wiccan this was and at times still one of my go to things. One important point he makes is that magic and what ever path you choose is ment to grow and expand in each person, in the way that is going to be different for each person, he also points out that one of the best things about being solitary is you can pull from whatever works with and you are lead to things and ways that works for you. In some ways there are already temples and with that a my way or no way of doing things. I had found a coven, but things always took place at the same place and was chosen by the high priestess and priest. There were also all the strictness of it's only their rules, this also caused other problems as well, especially since the high priestess had a thing for my husband both in a sexual and wanting to be with him altogether. She also was always like he's a real witch, but also tried to put my daughter and I into different categories. This is a abusive of power and of magic, eventually it took us almost breaking up and a couple of visits from both family that had already crossed, but that of the others as well. Never use magic to try to control another because eventually no matter what free will, will break through and then the caster will face many problems. But again I have come across other coven's and it was the same, everything took place at one place and you had to follow their ways. To me that is to much like a church and all the churches and restrictions thay have and that is what is causing people to leave the churches. With restrictions and confinement things can not grow and expand. A few years back something hit me out of nowhere, that is the others decided it was time for me to grow in a big way, both opening things back up that I had buried long ago as happens just because of the world and it's believe around us. Also adding new things that I don't remember ever having. Part of this is my mind was thrown open to a kind of magic many don't seem to bother with or understand and that is visualization magic, part of that makes it easier to connect with the others, because people have become so strict and made their own temples even if outdoors it's still their way or the highway, especially since they don't understand how you have grown. There are groups on the internet that welcome all and the only rules are treat others with respect and not to be down on someone that believes in a different way from others, you just need to watch a group after you join to make sure that's really how they believe in this way there is some kind of connection with others and learn from others, but I know this is not for everyone. One thing about the US military all 5 branches (that includes the Coast Guard) have started recognizing different types of Paganism and add more each year, this is a start of being accepted by the regular population. As I know this is mostly a US problem, I would worry about building a temple just because of those that hate and fear. There have been mass shootings in places of worship for all 3 of the main religions. Do to the hate and fear of others about any kind of Paganism. The idea of a place that all can come to and worship in their own way and if feel lead leave offerings as lead, but again you can not let someone or some other group take it over. We practice what we can outside but the winters make that next to impossible, not to mention we rent so there is no privacy. So no I don't believe in temples even if it's a place outside that a group of just a certain way and no other ways. To me and my family how each of us practice can be very different from each other. At any kind of temple weather ment to at the start or not they become become like any other church or ancient temple and all start asking for money in some way for something. I think the one good thing that came out of lockdown during covid was many that were in coven's and such had to start learning and doing on their own. This has led to a explosion of people finding their true hearts path and many no longer belong or do exactly as their coven had said, their minds, hearts, and souls have been expanded to new ways and heights and they are liking it very much. I think if anything having a shrine for all is a awesome idea as long as people don't let it be overtaken by one set of people. We have alters and shrines and other things in our home, to us our beliefs are not just confined to just certain days of the year or the full moon. It is something we live and just naturally do everyday. I also agree we each in our own way do all we can to save mother earth. For me since I am disabled now I can't do protest and such, but I spread the word on the net on any platform I am on, one thing has been I am a water protector and that doesn't mean just for the land's of the Native American Nations that means for all, the water protectors also help and get the word out about farmers that are in the fight as well. I live in Kansas and the pipeline that we have been fighting against especially where it's at, at the head waters of the Missouri river comes through part of Kansas and developed a leak into a creek that goes into a river not to mention the damage it's doing to the farmlands on either side. The company is supposed to be cleaning it up but will not let anyone check on the site they have ever maneged to keep drone's from flying over, won't let local or state officels in to check, they are even blocking the farmers from checking things out, all this is being spread across the net because this is wrong. This is some of the things we must fight, we must fight the elagel gathering of native plants to sell them especially from the sacred places of those that truly have the full right to all the lands here, from the hill folk that these plants are a part of their ways there are proper ways to do things we all most learn about the things we buy and how it was collected and where it was grown, even call the company and ask if you get the run around then don't trust them. Ok sorry this was so long but so much of what you said matches my heart and souls way and path. May the Lord and Lady watch over you. Blessings to everyone, and much love and light.
Hey! Epah sou Português sim senhor :P hehe. Fico contente por saber que estás a gostar. Espero que continues a gostar aqui do conteúdo que tenho vindo a criar. Obrigado e um abraço!
@@ArithHärger isso é incrível! É tão bom haver este tipo de conteúdo por cá! Eu faço arte com muita simbologia e este canal ajuda-me a ter ideias para as minhas peças. Sou grande fã, continua com o excelente trabalho! Grande abraço do Porto.
As roman i feel more confortable with a community to celebrate and debate about "sacred laws", wich are "materialized" into a place of worship, a common altar. The altar is the most important structure, in a wood to protect, in a city's lot to redevelop etc. The community living in a place is sustained by its gods, a genius loci, ancestors, tutelary deities etc. All should give respect and the lonely practice is something anybody can cultivate at home.
it is so hard to remain free. Seriously , i have seen friends repeatedly get into an idea of things (paganism) and it doesn't take long that it is about the collected objects - the correct wand etc And to be sure there will be a store that will sell you what you need blessed by the right person. And pretty soon the adaption of guilt and concerns of sin. Oops what happened there. any time i have explored something and have an idea of 'lets try this' , i will seek to learn how to make my own 'what ever' be it a twig for a wand , or gather all i need to make a drum from scratch. Getting your hands dirty, freezing while sitting at the crossroads for a night reminds of what is sacred. This is my way - of course not what i think any one 'should'' do to be valid. I do not carry any tools with me, anything i have made in the past i have given to a friend or back to nature. i think now all i need know is what the patterns in the sky, the flight of birds and the feeling in the wind can teach me. Thankyou for this video Arith.
In principle I do think a world with temples to the gods is preferable to one without, but I agree with many of your points. The questions of who runs and controls a temple and therefore gets to decide what kind of worship is or isn't practised is a hard one to get right, less so with shrines and outdoors sanctuaries on public land. The best idea I have come up with that seems feasable is that any temple would belong to a community of worship that already does practice togeather and thus has some level of internal agreement. Then much as it is now, the question of "can I/ do I want to worship at this temple?" is the same you would already ask now when inquiring about a pagan community "do they welcome me and do I want to associate with them?". The bigots and nationalists would have their own temples I suppose but the rest of us can just not go there, just like anyone who has sense avoids their company already. I don't think temples can solve any internal pagan issues, but they wouldn't necessarily make them worse either. And the gods could be worshiped in their temples again, which I think would be neat.
I'm not sure about a "temple", as such. Which flavor of paganism would be represented? I think a mulit-pagan community center would be more useful. It could be used for religious rites, but that would not be it's primary purpose. This would also make space (hopefully) for practitioners who's focus is not religious to socialize and engage in non-Abrahamic spiritual community.
I do, but mainly as place of education. A grove in the middle or back should be more centric, as the temple you showed. I always wanted the means to build a Hoff or shrine for any pagans to go visit.
temples are important to give your "community' a place that belongs to them and their needs and desires. in most ancient cultures we see temples being erected, or sacred spaces being somehow set aside form daily life, singling them out as special. I personally prefer a nice feast hall where you meet up to share a meal and discuss things cogent to your peer group...Do these types of things "legitimize" your theology? In a way yes. It establishes you presence in the broader social community. Are they necessary to conduct worship? No. They may actually lead to a too rigid hierarchy of people to take ownership of the place, and therefor the actual worship being conducted, bending to their will alone. there needs to be, as in all things, a balance between your visible anchor in the world, and the spirituality that it is attempting to mainstream.
I think in this matter it's important to get to the essence of paganism and make a distinction with how people approach paganism. E.g. what makes paganism as it is, what is it essence? Maybe the belief in fate, the shared notions of honour, the act of sacrifice or belief in animism? How people approach the essence, however, is totally up to them. If a group e.g. wishes to build a temple to a certain deity (let's say Thuner) and sacrifice to that deity, that's totally fine. If another group wishes to build a temple to Wodan, than that's fine too. As long as the essential methods (like e.g. the act of sacrifice) takes place. To WHOM these methods apply is totally open to the group in question. The temple's location is also important in my opinion, regarding which practices are able to be performed. E.g. a temple built near a forest or clearing is more able to perform outdoor practices, than a temple built near or in an urban area. In the former's case the temple could act as a meeting place, whilst some practices themselves might be done outdoors. In the latter's case practices might preferably be done indoors. Those are my ideas about the subject.
I think that if temples are to be implemented they should be used more as a gathering places rather than a formal institution (meaning that there is no hierarchy or institutional agenda or standard) for pagans to come and talk about their experiences discuss philosophy, perform community rituals, etc. but these temples would should include outdoor spaces as much as possible gardens sacred groves and the like with a building being for shelter from bad weather days or for what ever reason people can not be outdoors. Cause lets face it no body wants to attend a ritual or feast in the rain.
I am a neo-Pagan and I have no desire for a temple. All of Nature is my temple - why would I even want to go to a "building" or "structure" to express my faith? If I want to pray, I pray. If I want to sacrifice, I sacrifice. I do not need to wait for a "holy day" or wait until I can go to a "temple" to do what I feel led to do. And I follow this path on my own - I do not need "affirmation" from anyone or any group. That is not meant to sound "arrogant" - just that the only "community" I have found is on-line.
@@bezoticallyyours83 Quite true! I was not denying the existence of any "Pagan" temples - just that I (personally) do not feel a need for one to express my faith. Most "gatherings" that represent "Pagan" faiths tend to be held outdoors as the presence of a roaring bonfires is frowned upon in enclosed spaces. 😆
I think I'd like to build them. I don't think we're doomed or can't practice without them, but with them, we make great wonders of the world that glorify the gods.. It alsonalows for artistic expression and inginuity.
Nature is my temple however I do feel that community is important, and built temples would hopefully provide a place for communities to gather.
I agree. Community is important, especially if it is a healthy environment that also promotes personal/individual growth. If we are to have temples, perhaps it would be a better idea to make them public in its administration and not controlled by a private group, but rather somewhat like a community-centre model, like local associations with social and cultural purposes. It is important to allow people to have their own moments with the community and also their own private moments.
The temple comes after community in my opinion.
This right here! The faith and the praxis of pagans (in my opinion) is an almost purely singular experience. Getting together for ritual/festivities is a different matter. Putting a temple up for the sake of routine worship of these gods seems counterintuitive to me. Being out in the natural world is a far more potent way to connect.
@@ArithHärger I think allowing non practitioners in would be a bad idea. It would become more of a tourist attraction than a holy place, especially given the lack of respect most people have for paganism in the modern world already.
I believe we need spaces to share sacred experiences and events as a community. We also need sacred places for burial and other life events. I believe temples and sacred sites can serve as a focal point in a Pagan community. Yes you can find the sacred in any place, but having a focal point of gathering is important.
I also believe our sacred places should remain relatively neutral, upkeep can be shared by many different branches of Paganism, avoiding indoctrination and close mindedness
The Apaches here in Arizona hold their ceremonies at what is called "holy grounds" a special place that is in the outdoors. I've been there a few times. Perhaps some branches of paganism can adopt this practice more. Not necessarily a temple but a designated place to hold ceremonies.
Such a concept (which I like and support) existed in many ancient paganisms. Specific holy grounds or spots. For Western Europe, for instance, several on hills and groves. In my country (Portugal) and in the UK and France such places can still be known through the study of several toponyms, especially those that still hold names derived from a Celtic language or dialect. Central Europe also had such spaces, mostly in groves, while in the west hills were far more common to be holy grounds and dwellings of local deities and other beings.
I’m so grateful for this!
It addresses and underlines the reasons I’m still a ‘lone practitioner’.
When I express these things to pagan communities I’ve interfaced with, I’m often met with derision, whether that is direct or silent/passive.
Every pagan group/org I have interfaced with in America seems to have a modern, western politick that is a more primary animating spirit than the spirit(s) of paganism themselves.
As a consequence, I always find myself withdrawing back to the solitude in nature to interface with the forces I've grown so close with since childhood- whose face I recognized far later in life in the symbols, myths and motifs of Paganism.
This relationship and way of* seeing and being, coming before the latter, the latter just giving name and a bit of structure to what was already very much there for me.
I too fear the institutionalization of Pagan beliefs/practices. Orthodoxies will and already have begun emerging, and what Freud described as "the narcissism of small differences" is easily observable.
It leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
I’ve reflected and meditated on this a lot, and am actually pleased to see other minds coming to similar conclusions and expressing the same apprehensions.
Public shrines, for intimate personal practice in the sort of special spaces I find in solitude on my off trail journeys is something I think about often and contemplate how to go about making a thing.
I have private shrines in very special places, and sometimes feel like I’m being selfish in keeping some of these lovely, powerful spots so secret and private.
But, I also feel so strongly called to protect the spirits and conduit like nature of these little places, and deeply worry about their vandalism and destruction in the manner one does someone dear to them...
Thank you very much for expressing and sharing your thoughts and experiences. Much appreciated. Have a wonderful day, friend.
I feel the same as you - with the exception that I do not even know of any "Public shrines"! 😀
I do not attempt to "proselytize" others - though I have run into a few people that I (somewhat) share my beliefs with. We (IMO) are all on a long journey through life and I can not imagine trying to "lead" someone else when our individual journeys are so different. Maybe that is a reason I have heard the term "cookie-cutter Christians". Will have to think about that.
Anyhoo - blessings to you in your path! 😀❤
Same . I live in a micro climate . It's the highest spot in my county . The wind is incredible and the lightning is terrifying ( I was hit by it this fall when it blew out of the wall in my livingroom ) . Last summer I discovered purple coral mushrooms , Jack in the pulpit and black birch growing in the lawn . I've decided to let my lawn go completely wild as an offering to the plants and spirits up here .
This will be my temple and , I guess , they will be my community.
Blessings.
I had a personal shrine put up along a shore where most no one goes. Yet it was torn down 3 times. I felt like rebuilding it a 4th time and leaving a note saying "do I tear your church down!?"
@@sarahgilbert8036 I find it ironic that the same people claim that "God is everywhere" (Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent) yet also believe their God can only be found in a "church" and would see to despoil any other recognition of "God" - like having an shrine or altar residing in Nature.
Greetings from the Texas Gulf Coast, USA. Thank you for putting these thoughts into words and sharing them with the heathen/pagan community. I adore the idea of shrines. Heathen/Pagan temples? Not so much for similar reasons to your own. Gatekeeping is a "thing" in our community; a contagion from the monotheist era, I suspect.
In Nature, it's you and your Holy Ones; you and the Lordly Ones; you and the Spirits o the Land.
Thank you for your well produced videos and well researched topics.
I think there's a great chance for shrines to be reinforced. Speaking of my own country, just as an example, from time to time if you go around the countryside, and in places closer to ancient sacred sites, you still see that many people leave some sort of offering, and they don't have to specifically be pagan, but it is embedded in the folklore-mind. We also have a thing called "alminhas" (Portuguese for " "little"-souls ") or "petos de ânimas" (Galician and Portuguese-Galician for "pockts of souls"), these are little shrines you find in old roads, new roads, in villages in the countryside. These are literally little houses or little temples and altars where you stop for a moment to say a prayer and sometimes alms for souls. It is also common to find lighted candles and lamps, left by people passing by, or even other offerings such as flowers. These are Christian, but they replace the old pagan shrines, some of these are even houses of saints (sometimes of multiple genders) replacing shrines of the old deities and local spirits that used to be in these spots. It wouldn't be hard to have pagan shrines again.
Hey double shout-out from TX Gulf Coast!
@@isawamoose HI, neighbor
Gatekeeping has always existed in pagan communities, if anything moreso than in monotheist ones, so saying it's a contagion from monotheism is absolutely ridiculous. The elysian mysteries in Greek antiquity, certain ancient cults of Odin, indigenous American practices and various other pagan rituals have always been gated practices. I never understood this modern notion of everything being available to everyone.
Never a truer word spoken, thank you Arith.
Im constantly amazed you can make such informative and well constructed videos in one take.
Brilliant. You hit the nail right on the head. Truth is, for some, hard to take. Blessings,❤.
Edit: I hope your feeling better. You looked in fine form in this presentation.
Communities are useful as long as they are not attempting to control everyone. many men into Asatru are also military or ex military and they don't realize how conditioned they are. I am keeping it solo for now- Glad this channel exists!
You brought up wonderful and poignant points about modern paganism. If paganism (in whatever flavor one follows) is to firmly establish itself then it must start at the individual level first. While temples are a desire for many to validate their own individual beliefs, the pagan community can't even agree upon aspects of the gods, nature spirits and so forth, because they're lacking actual knowledge of history; nor are they willing to be honest about their religion (wicca in particular). There are other issues of many cosplaying their religion as (authentic practice), lack of spiritual identity within their own beliefs, etc. I believe proper home altars, personal devotional practice, and shrines for local spirits would be a better way to move forward at this time,
Interesting!!!! Personally I have a nemeton space in my yard with a Corymbia citriodora tree and other native Australian plants! I mostly use my space for meditation and also to pay respect to the people who lived on the land previously (the Gunnai/Kurnai) as well as my own past family. ♥🌳🌾
one of your best videos brother... wonderful to find you are posting again... a subject Ive struggled with for several years now... my current view is that a temple is only useful for sharing collective festive celebrations... and even that will compromise individualist approaches to deity.
I find the idea of shrines, as you present them, extremely compelling. If we're going to do the temple thing, I think this is the best way I've seen suggested.
😂 Good points about the A.I. Arith. Science and science fiction have some explaining to do. 😂 Thank you for another fantastic video and I hope you're feeling recovered from Covid.
I'm a pagan animist, emphasis on animist, lol. I don't always agree with you Arith, but I do always listen carefully and appreciate your insight. In this case I agree 100% and also believe we cannot, as pagans, allow ourselves to confine our beliefs within temples. I'm a 4th generation American, I don't have access to the land of my ancestors, and perhaps will never see it. But, through my own practice here and searching out Native American sacred spaces that the Native tribes are willing to allow the use of, because in Native American Indian culture, an animistic practice, the land doesn't belong to anyone, yet it belongs to everyone with respect for it. A movement as pagans(in general) to reclaim and give back these sacred spaces to the indigenous people, would allow a great start at broadening the community and allow a natural combination forming mutual respect for beliefs, each other, and respect for the sacred areas itself, for use by all pagans, indigenous or not. I don't think temples is the way to go about it myself, let's take a chance as pagans to secure these areas, giving back to the indigenous people for the future of all pagans. The are MANY ways pagan/animistic people of all types can agree to work together to protect these areas for our descendants.
It has been my observation that faiths which interact on any level with an organized religion tend to absorb its characteristics, whether intentional or not. In the early days, Shinto largely resembled many other “animistic” religions, but when Buddhism was eventually introduced to Japan, Shinto began adopting permanent places of worship (whose architecture was even influenced by Buddhist temples), a written code that standardized certain religious functions of the state, and an institutionalized clergy. This was due not only to gradual Buddhist influence, but sometimes as a deliberate reaction to resist the incursion of a foreign religion by solidifying existing institutions (though practicing both Shinto and Buddhism, sometimes simultaneously, eventually became the norm in Japan). While I understand the objections to this type of institutionalization, it may simply be the natural course for faiths which exist alongside an organized religion. This also isn’t to say more personal practices should be done away with, as many people in Japan still observe personal practices which often do not conform to “orthodoxy”, only that gaining any sort of institutional legitimacy may be in the movement’s best interest in the long term.
I fully agree with the sentiment of sharing or seeking the permission of indigenous people for use of land, though. Between different indigenous communities, even across oceans and continents, it’s usually standard practice to observe each other’s protocol when seeking use of land or resources, particularly those of the “host” group. Sadly, in Hawaiʻi where I’m from, it can be assumed that almost no structure today was built with these considerations, and sometimes in direct defiance of the old order when Christianity was first introduced. The only places left to observe the Hawaiian religion are in the home, the few remaining pre-contact religious structures that survived destruction by Christians, or the few reclaimed areas which often exist in between what has been built by others.
@@TheKalihiMan I think that conformity comes from society itself as well. Given that most people have lost touch with the natural world, it seems only fitting that they prefer a temple or indoor type places. That's a shame about Hawaii, but I think also we can turn the clock and attitudes of people back, to when animistic meant a relationship with nature, and it's sacred places. But that starts with organizing ourselves and metaphorically fighting for control of those places back and opening them up to pagans who respect those areas and the cultures behind them.
Hello Artih! The Video came in perfect timing, exactly at my lunch break!
Hope you had an awesome lunch :)
I don't consider myself a pagan but I loved watching this video, I agree in so many of your ideas. It was so refreshing and empowering to listen to you. I feel greateful, thank you.
Rather than going straight away for the grand temple I think it would be cool if Pagans built more humble wayside shrines that anyone could afford to begin with, and then maybe some of these could grow with time and expand into larger structures as they gained in popularity. Seems like the most natural path to me. Probably what happened in most cases in history too.
I've been watching your videos for some time now, and they're all wonderful. But this one, above all, should be required viewing for anyone looking to building a pagan community.
It touches so much, but especially how our consecrated spiritual spaces need to manifest organically from the people themselves, and not artificially created by some appointed religious organisations. I think your idea of shrines versus temples is apt, because pagan peoples had been honouring the divine thousands of years before political structures developed their state-run temples.
You make so much sense when reflecting on our culture at the beginning of this video .
Also , it's been a fantasy of mine for about thirty years to have a community temple to celebrate the pagan and natural things that I hold sacred .unfortunately my area is overcome with the christofascist ideology that is swallowing my country .
Upon listening to this all the way through I've been inspired 🐣
The term fascist no longer has meaning due to overuse. You'll have to think of another insult.
@@kellysouter4381 I stand by my choice of word . I mean what I say and say what I mean .
@@blackthornsloe8049 Would you also say islamofascist?
@@Bb-xq7gk I say what I mean . My country has told me that I am a breeding slave . They have said I am mandated by law to carry a pregnancy to term even if it has no skull , is the child of my rapist or even if I am 10 years old and it is my own sibling . If that is not Fascist then I don't know what is .
I know nothing about Islam therefore I have nothing to say about it .
@@blackthornsloe8049 Fair enough, but in principle you should be okay with it's usage.
Yes! Ty brother, I love how insightful your videos are and I agree. 100% . Temples would be good if we were still a people that harbored a family state of mind but these days adding structure means leaving room for someone to insert things like dogma and gatekeeping. And that is not what faith is all about.
Nature itself is a temple. Old pagan sacred places are enough for visiting. Any river, forest, tree, stone, seashore actually may be a place of worship. No administration to the sacred space - totally agree.
Very interesting video and important subject
hello dear Arith - thankyou for your voice - a young man i admire Ren, is putting out a song later today about human's imbalance on the planet. I have to wear a mask even when i go out at 3 am, because of the dryer stench etc factory crap in the air - they just cut our last forest , no place for my friends to live; and i can see lights of an over pass 10 miles away. i wonder why i'm here, except to keep taking food out to feed who needs it. I don't think about the future at all anymore. time to start flagging trees when i can, i'm a member of the conservancy so i flag the protected ones, hopefully before someone bulldozes. Who would think they would just bulldoze trees in February ! my goodness your comment about not bothering about your own safety, we have that one in common. Walking fence borders to stop people from shooting bears. (my friends wanted to lock me in my house)
I feel you. My own country was known for its vast oak forests, and dense woodlands with stags, boars, wolves and bears. Nowadays it is rare to find oaks. It is even rare to have a decent forested area, and bears have all been driven away, very rarely seen in the northern mountain areas closer to the border with Galicia. Where I grew up is possibly one of the very few places that still has forests, but even so it was quite different 20 years ago, it was more untouched by humanity. It pains my soul. There are days I feel desperate watching yet another tree being fell. Trees I had a good relationship with. Trees that housed many animals. People often focus on how "foreigners" come to "destroy our land", and don't realize that we are the ones destroying it all from within. Anyway, thank you for your feedback once again my dear friend. Hope all is well with you and yours despite having to watch - every day - people destroying the natural habitats and ecosystems. There's still hope, and good will overcome, trust in that :)
@@ArithHärger dear Friend = i'm so glad you get it. people don't understand how this is actually physically painful - the grief i feel having to drive by chewed up trees. They did it to create another 'dump site' - yes, beside a 'nature path' - they filled the marshes too. our water is disgusting here - so they dump chlorine in it. the wind is angry i swear , i've never known it like this here. Take care of yourself !
I understand your perspective, because it's one I've held myself most of my life. It was a story shared to me by a Catholic priest I know that made me rethink it, though. I'll share it the best I can. Maybe it can help you think as well.
He told me that he often traveled across the county to give service to local senior living centers. Due to the shear number of centers, he only would get to each one once a month. After a while, he got to know most of the people who'd attend the service in each location. And, due to the infrequency of his visits, he'd also know what happened when they'd no longer show up. In one of the centers, there was a husband and wife who'd been together for most of their lives. He'd gotten to know both of them really well. He knew that it was the wife who was truly devoted to God, and that the husband came and went through the motions out of respect for her. Month by month, over the course of a year, he watched as the wife's health steadily declined. So, when he returned and gave his service and saw they weren't in attendance, he grew concerned. He spotted the husband standing in the back of the room after it was over and asked him if everything was okay. The husband explained his wife had gotten too weak to move and was now bed ridden. She'd gotten so weak, she hadn't been able to speak for almost a week. So, the priest asked if the husband would mind if he joined them in their room to pray for her, to which the husband gladly accepted. When in the room, he could see the wife's condition was more than dire. She didn't follow him with her eyes and he knew she wasn't going to make it much longer. He took her rosary in his hands and recited a prayer he knew she was fond of. It wasn't until he was halfway through that he realized her lips were moving along as she breathlessly recited the familiar prayer along with him. It was a small act, but enough to leave her husband in tears. He said she passed on that night.
Having always been more of an animist myself, I've found indoor churches and structured prayers recited ad nauseam to be stifling and antithetical to truly experiencing the divine. However, who am I to argue that the elderly couple hadn't felt a true religious experience? I might not get it, and it might even seem a bit dangerous to me (and it might be). Yet, in the end, maybe there isn't a right answer. Temple--no temple. We'll all connect with our gods our own way, and who among us is worthy to judge the efficacy?
Well said friend! Many thanks for your equanimous perspective and I hope to see someone here at a shrine near me 🐺
Very interesting. I am interested in exploring my spirituality more, and one of the biggest hurdles to me in exploring paganism is the lack of local institutions where pagans congregate. Unlike mosques, churches, and temples which are everywhere where I live.
Hello Mr.Härger, I'm a long time fan of your channel from Sintra, Portugal.
I have had quite te experience since I started my journey with paganism and I would love to share it with everyone.
Although European, I've come to the realization that we in the western world have forgotten how to properly praise the old gods, my contact with exterior cultures from Africa and the Orient has taught me a lot, since unlike most of us, they live and breath the gods they worship on a daily basis, following millennia old traditions.
Since I started to adventure myself beyond the limits of my own pre-judicated ideas I've learned many wonderful things, religious and not religious, unfortunately many of them may upset some people.
The closest I've seen of a truly magical and religious experience, along with it's rituals, was in my introduction with the culture of the Iorubá and their religious beliefs. With every initiation I've acquired significant knowledge and power, be through the community or the individual learning, and I'm sure I'm just scraping the very top of it.
Temples are extremely important, many of the traditions and knowledge of these cultures are kept behind a heavy veil of secrecy and mystery, some that I'm very grateful to have witnessed, specially the worship of the Egungun, Egbe and Orunmilá.
however, individual worship after being initiated has led me to an immense amount of knowledge about myself and the world that is around me. Being initiated is like having a light to walk in the dark, although you can stumble your way into something's, having a clear sight of what you're doing is much, much better.
The best part is that through the knowledge obtained via these worship, I've managed to learn a great deal about the gods that roam the lands were I live, where to find them and to please them, giving me the possibility to explore and discover more.
In conclusion, opening our eyes to different cultures that kept their animistic side alive, even if they're much different than ours and becoming part of them was a critical step to understand more about animism itself, spirituality and myself, and I recommend it to everyone.
I enjoyed this video. For some years now I have wanted to create a Temple to Poseidon, even though I also work with Gaia and Apollo and starting to work with 2 others but those relationships are just starting. I have thought of a personal Temple on my own land but I have also have thought of creating a public Temple. For the public Temple I would definitely have an open area for the public at the front of the land, a Greek Temple style building to have like a small museum of reproductions of statues and Myths etc and to have a small gift shop or something and a donation box. And the back portion of the land would be to connect with nature. There would be a few ponds here and there and at least 2 Poseidon fountains one in the front and one in the back. I'll probably think of more 😂😂 But apart of me doesn't want all the water features because I live in Arizona and it's a desert landscape and we need to conserve water.
One of the many things I appreciate about your videos is connecting topics with decolonisation and reconciliation with indigenous peoples. As a fourth-generation settler living on stolen Coast Salish land, and as a heathen, I’m conscious of the importance of place in forming identity and spirituality. How settler-descendants like me undertake that in a land far away from that of our ancestors, on land indigenous to others, is something that preoccupies me a lot.
I agree with you that when we are rooted to the land, we’re rooted to the spirit, I believe we’re rooted to the ancestors, wherever our wanderings take us. We take them with us, in our ancestral memory, our spiritual DNA. For me, part of the journey of decolonisation is learning about the land where I find myself, and from the people indigenous to it. I can then integrate, with authenticity, the spiritual practices and beliefs informed by my own indigenous heritage. I can establish roots.
I also think that a structure (I like the shrine concept) where we can go and present offerings and be in community isn’t inconsistent with the practices of our ancestors. We know they had structures where they gathered, and it is not a stretch to say that ritual practices would take place into those contexts. Also, it’s not always nice to be outside, especially in coastal British Columbia! And it is not accessible for everyone, like the elders and those with disabilities.
Thanks so much for what you do!
Really great material. You open your eyes and mind to the perception of paganism. And thank you again for adding Polish subtitles it makes my life incredibly easier
A well argued video.Thank you. I can well understand the lure of wanting to find one's tribe but tribes, like institutions, end up serving their own interests. Those who are unsure or prone to be easily persuaded would be better off remaining a solitary practitioner for the time being. I agree that we need more public symbols of paganism, such as temples, to become more mainstream and accessible to people but a temple is a limiting arena for development. I didn't realise I wanted to think more about this topic until I watched this video. As ever, thank you Arith.
Feng shui is an ancient art and science, this would have some merit in considering a space sacred space. Power places and magical places, such as glens, groves, & valleys come to mind, all part of geomancy, within feng shui. If not for to protect us, to amplify us. Temples are what by nature? If we define this more accurately, we may be able to contribute a more specific shared definition.
This is a really important video. So many good points here. I like the IDEA of being involved in a pagan community, but then it often seems like a group of people with the same exact ideals and beliefs that you shan't stray from or else. My beliefs are my own and are personal, they may align with yours but they may not...and that should be okay, so long as we're all respectful . Focus on yourself, focus on the world around you and less on the Hall, or Temple, or group gatherings.
I think this is one of the most important videos on the topic of neo-paganism. Many people do think that in antiquity the temple worship was the standard, everyday thing. It was not. As a person, who was involved in the building of a modern day pagan temple and who saw the pure idea of common place of worship turn into an institutionalized cult controlled by one person, where no one feels free to be themselves, I strongly agree with Arith on the shrines topic. It is kind of absurd that at one time I was placing the foundations of new pagan temple and in the next I'm feeling better going to the small Christian chapels here (which are small, room sized buildings, open to anyone, that are usually situated on former pagan sacred grounds). So yes, a shrine which is a responsibility of everyone, is far better than a place controlled by one person or a group of persons. Don't dream of the past. It was not a dreamy place. Be present, be here, connect with your surroundings. Greet the big tree on your way to work, nod to the statue of an important local hero, light a candle at your window. It is actually what most of our ancestors did. Thank you, Arith, for doing those clips! It is indeed a katharsis for me, to listen to your lessons!
For anyone in the UK; Asatru UK is a friendly group that focuses on inclusiveness and allowing people to experience their (mostly norse heathen) faiths in their own ways. They had an Althyng this year that was comparatively large and have the goal of owning land / potentially building a temple one day
❤️👍
You make some excellent points. I do feel like temples would be good though should be completely non profit and give back to the community and nature. It should be run by the community with noone at the top. Built on land already deforest and should be reforested around any structures . Ideally open air so still in nature and be open to all. Money would come from hiring out for events such as weddings and parties because why not. All should be welcome if respectful.
I do think shrines would be a great middle ground. In my mother's village in Italy they have cute shrines dotted about and it seems as good as any church.
My life goal is to buy land and reforest it and make it great for wild life. That would be my personal temple but i would love to see an area to meet other pagans and witches
You made me think of an important point: We are witnessing massive deforestation, and in my own country (as an example) deforestation comes mostly from wood industries and political terrorism. It pains my very soul to see the landscape that I once knew completely devastated. So, it would actually be a good thing pagan communities owning pieces of land, for whatever practice, and reforest the area, turning already existing forests (or making new forests) into protected areas because they become property. This would also be part of pagan activism in relation to environmental issues. I have a similar goal as yours. To buy land where I can live and turn it into a safe haven for several animals, especially pollinators, maintaining a little ecosystem.
@@ArithHärger thank you . From what I hear Portugal is an excellent place to do so due to easier freedoms to own land, though apologies if I'm mistaken. I'm happy our goals are alined . That is something as a community we can make a difference, even if on a small level.
That's a good point about not experiencing the spiritual side just because they're in a dedicated building for it. That's something each of us has to learn to do for ourselves.
100% agree with family, clan, tribe, or coven shrines. Preserve the land as natural and go out there. Add a couple of accessibility related and portable infrastructure.
Thanks for this.
Brilliant insight. As an analogy, the surgeon learns his work by watching doing and teaching in short order. The same construct should exist in pagan culture 1. Personal gnosis. 2. Gathering of the like minded. 3. Group Gnosis. 4. Repeat
Are there any Pagan animist’s in Portland Oregon area that might be interested in meeting for further exploration of these topics?
I thought: boring topic - but maybe Arith has something interesting to say about.
And indeed - great thoughts! Thank you!
Here in New Zealand Māori have their own ancestral lands with Marae (meetings houses) where they gather as a people and continue their old ways. The meeting houses are often in rural environments and so their is also a connection to the land in addition to being a place for gathering. Māori also have urban Marae with Whare meeting houses so that they have rural and urban centers for their culture.
So temples is an option for paganism in the 21st century, and there are other options also. In addition to temples, hofs, halls, houses, groves, horgr, sacred spaces, shrines, etc.
Thank you for bringing up the topic!
I must add a couple of points regarding your topic of "pagan communities vs personal gnosis". Personal story incoming.
About 5 or so years ago I had what some people could call a divine revalation: an entity that called itself Quetzalcoatl appeared in my living room and said that it required my services. I had no magical experience whatsoever and thus I had no freakin idea why I was picked by that thing. Nevertheless, I got a high opinion of myself, even though I didn't say yes or no to this old aztec god. Eventually, I had tried out some shamanic practices by going through initiation with the help of someone I considered a reliable shaman. I practiced it for a couple of years and then realized something.
As it turned out, both the shaman and the revelation were full of crap. And not in a "I had no magical powers, it was just a fantasy" kind of way, oh no. It was much worse. Those were just the undead spirits and Quetzalcoatl was simply impersonated by the imps (we have plenty of those roaming around Russia) influencing my perceptions, feeding off my personal energy, making my hair fall off and turning my skin into a potato peel which I didn't pay much attention to at the time. Once I realized it and sought out an honest-to-god magical expert I got myself what you can call a purge: all of their influences and negative energy was scooped out of me. On the very night when that had happened, an outside wall of the house next to mine got on fire for no apparent reason. Luckily, noone got hurt.
It became obvious to me that this was the filth that had been inside of me all these years. And the craziest part is that it had never occured to me something was wrong until my girlfriend told me I was acting strange and being unfocused. It's been 4 months since I started down the path of Nordic Tradition and I still have a lot to learn. I can only kinda-sorta glimpse into what Aesir and Vanir are all about as far as "meeting them in person" is concerned.
Personal gnosis can be a source of true revelations, but you have to distinguish true Gods from impostors, and this is something that a good pagan temple can provide. As long as you follow, or at the very least know and understand, the traditions of the old (runic poems, Havamal, sagas, also knowing how to distinguish true pagan teachings from christian influences) - you have more chances to properly prepare yourself, to be worthy to stand beside the Gods as their follower.
The easiest way to distinguish a true God from an impostor pretending to be a God is this: an impostor will go out of their way to clog your perceptions with special effects, with visions of grandeur, with overly elaborate rollercoasters ("Hey! Look how cool and awesome I am!") - all while sliding some sort of agreement paper under your palm and tricking you into signing that agreement without you realizing what exactly it demands of you.
A true God, in my experience, is someone who wishes for you to live a happy, productive, and fulfilling life. They do not need special effects and other shenanigans to prove that they are Gods. But they are also much more difficult to contact. You have to be willing and ready to let go of the life you'd been living before meeting the Gods - and that can be very hard to do, especially if you are stuck in some sort of pathological loophole.
As far as I can tell (and this is *MY* personal gnosis), someone like Tyr will not even glance at a human who is a 30 y.o. living with his parents or playing videogames all day long. It's not enough to just not do bad things in life: that just makes you a zero. Nordic Gods, in my personal view, are the Gods that want their people to be better, stronger, smarter, do the good deeds, gain energy and then spend that energy on improving their own lives and the lives of those around you (I like to call that the Fehu principle). And to be that kind of a man or a woman, you have to look for what is old and rotten in your life and, once found, tear it down with tenacity. And you have not be afraid of being alone. Because when you are truly in contact with the Gods, you are never alone. You can ask for their advice and be sure that they will point you in the right direction.
So, overall, I believe that a temple that can properly distinguish true Gods from imposters will be a good and healthy thing. The elitism and commercialization are both valid criticisms of that system still.
I learned some of this by trail and error , I have a small group and we founded a temple legally , but as time went on we started dropping the "longing" to follow the church structure of organized religions that so many other Neo Pagan groups have done. Its on going for us to unlearn that and go with the flow of Nature
Thank you for the video! It is a shame I live so far away- I'd love to chat with you and hear your life story. =)
In real life I'm shy and an introvert. I would most likely be there to listen to you, far more than speaking. In a video I speak more than I speak out loud in my daily life per month.
So well said and a lot to mull over. What I am hating is the Abramic Faith into Norse etc. ie "dying and going to valhalla and being reborn is a favourite of mine I heard." Also of course I also am both Animism and blend of Norse and Celtic Paganism. However, on the holy places for holy places particularily in Ireland all the Holy wells etc. were changed into Early Christian Saints. Saint Bridget comes to mine and others. Also Old Pagan sites the Church built a Church right on them .. then later let said go into ruin and moved into other places towns etc. On the matter of Temples of course example I am now living in Berlin its wild and Green in Parts for sure but I can understand the need say of a place or temple or whatever in an Urban place when you cannot get out into Nature either as much as you want or can. However, when you have a temple you have all you said denial of personal experience and the development of Docturine etc. etc. So its very complex. IM not in favour of Temples but I can understand when some are for migration and other reasons have to go live in very concrete cities where they can go have quite places. Example myself going into Parks trying anything or doing anything will call the Police but there can be Buddist temple bells etc. in Park near me but this is the issues. Too many Christians and Islam view all pagans with distrust and "devil worships" .. Perhaps the re-installment of sections in Public Park with Wood Carved Poles or Standing Stones would be great. Even in Ireland there is section in Kerry I am from in the National Park there where there is a section of the Park with Native Nordic Pines etc. and Carvings to the Old Norse. But also again even about the Town my family moved into Scotia Grave the woman whom gave her Name to Scotland ..ie her followers went onto Scotland has a grave over 7K old now and with Hieroglyphs and Ogham and a bunch of "Fundamentalist Christians went up and vandalised the stones there... makes me mad .. but its all about respect for their Churches. Its difficult .. I think a case can be made for Public Parks with sections to Neo Pagans and maybe in some temples in Cities where its just really all concrete and if you can get out have access to Nature itself its not needed there. The formation of some crazy disguised racists and xenophobes can come with formation of "Temples" and "Communties" unfortunately ..
I have thought about this a good amount myself as well. Instinctually I like the idea of temples, but the more I thought about it your own reservations also occurred to me. I think that you presented an important dichotomy: "Places where people can gather" versus "Like-minded places." It should be possible to have the former without the latter, if we plan ahead when organizing our communal practices. I also agree that it makes little sense to have a site of practice that is in any way removed from the world around us; it seems counter-productive to construct a temple that is closed off to the outside world, a purely human space is counter to the whole purpose of paganism (or at least animism). Any space where we can communally experience gnosis must be connected to the means of gnosis, or else we are just telling stories.
If we divest ourselves from the monotheistic conception of worship, I think there are many possibilities for both communal experience and structured gathering places. It just means thinking ahead, as you said, and thinking outside of what most people would see as a "temple" or "church."
The horror of group psychosis, and persecuting dogmas is what pushed me away from Christianity. The last thing I wanna see is the same thing happen to paganism. Love the shrine idea tho....I've actually been playing with the idea of setting one up in the woods out side of my local state park. Would be interesting to see if anyone visited or likely just destroy it
Pros
Community space
Sacred space
A place to leave to
Cons
The existence of places of power often sets up people for positions of power
And this often hurts pagan movements.
Possibility of gatekeeping
Possible money pits
Places possibility for manipulation of the narratives of less experienced or critical spiritual people
Here in the Philippines at the region of Cordillera, some People still practice former pagan traditions which really good, because many degenerate modernity cultures are also beginning to destroy it
As someone who is part Filipino, i wasn't sure what they practiced before catholicism became so deeply entrenched.
It is very nice to know there are a few out there, and would be nice to have more. While I don't believe that its unachievable, its just best to expect that it won't be a quick achievement.
I think the reconstructionists have the best bet of making temples, shrines, sacred spaces etc.
Indeed, nature is the ultimate primordial temple!! I guess that in the distant past, humans didn't need temple, for they lived bathing in it all the time. Then we started to cultivate plants and build shelters and I guess that's how the idea of temple may have emerged? I read somewhere that Feng Shui originated back then, first a technic to chose where to grow stuff, then where to build shelter, then cities, etc...
Some places in nature have been used as places for rituals for thousands of years, and they've become sacred sites, and some of them have become churches and temples of the kind (maybe through what we'd now call cultural appropriation?), though the primordial sacred stuff there is unmovable, unstealable: it's the ground itself, and I feel it's not just a nice place but a place where there's some particular geophysical phenomena (water table, volcano remain, etc...). Here in France we have some rocks with "cupules": sort of cups carved in the rocks. I found a big rock lately (several feet high and wide). I started to take of the moss and bushes that had grown on it and found that there is some natural basin at the top, so I can pour milk (raw from the farm nearby) in there and it stays. I could even bathe my feet in there. From what I gathered about it, it's the kind of rock that may have been called a "dwarf" further up North. I feel it's got a lovely chivalrous kind of personnality!
Then some other kinds of land spirits, the biggest of them, from what I gathered, may find useful to have some sort of harbor built for them so that they may bless a particular human or group of humans. For that kind of spirits, a place like stonehenge may be a bit like a harbor for a big boat, or like an aim/target to help them situate the area where to condense and bless.
Me, I have no temple, though I have a big house made mainly of stone, so spirits may consider it as a temple of some sort, though I've had to make it clear it's also a kitchen and the place where I live!
Thank you for sharing this information:)
Temples are a must for recognition. We have very few gathering places left, we need more.
Before listening the video, my intuition is that "yes" we need temples.
I may change my opinion with good arguments.
Todo lo que dices esta bien, y es correcto, Gracias por compartir tus pensamientos sobre este tema Arith.
All you say it's fine, and it's true, Thanks for sharing your thoughts about this topic Arith.
I don't think today's Pagans are generally in a place to build temples, and I'm not sure we should aspire to do so quickly. A lot of the reasons people express for wanting temples is to "keep up with the Joneses" aka Christian churches. They want mainstream respectability and some Pagan clergy want to be able to make a living off their duties. At the same time, we can see all of the corruption that results from institutionalized religion.
Pagans also tend to be grossly unrealistic about money. Temples/churches etc. cost money. Huge, huge money. If you are not personally willing to tithe several thousand dollars each and every year consistently to maintain a temple, you're not serious about wanting a temple.
Considering practical obstacles is always good. That's probably why there aren't very many of them right now. 😅
Your çommentary was very thoughtful
There is no unified paganism to worry about. There will always be those like me who interacts with the divine on my own terms. With no need for organization to interact.
There will always be those who desire a group to be organized, and a community to interact with.
Both can exist in the same person.
I love to discuss ideas with others. It helps me build a relationship with my own ideas, and learn from how others experience.
I will likely never be more than a visitor is any such community, but they are both inevitable and have the potential to be greatly useful.
excellent points. I do think ... it is hard coming from a near universally Abrahamic background to conceptualize a deity-based spirituality without rules and boundaries and authorities and focusing upon the worship of the 'gods'.
Even when you are raised un-theistically by an atheist and a person with ..... how to phrase... (An ex-Catholic who does not speak on their current beliefs but has hippie-tastic semi-atheistic?-pagan leanings), in a place so dominated by Abrahamic religions as the US, even in the suburbs of a sizeable and diverse city - it is still so, so hard to escape the notion of 'what religion/spirituality is' - dedicated buildings, entirely required specific literature, a heirarchy of authority and 'holiness' within a group, that getting close to the 'divine' is not a personal option but must be done through someone more authoritative, etcetera.
I, personally, have no desire for a temple. I have no desire for a 'church' - I tried that in high school and it was miserable, trying to be Christian. Then I tried being 'Wicca' and that was also so Wrong. My places are the natural world. I am incredibly shy and reserved these days. I practice alone. I do wish I had a guide... but my lack of trust in others would make this very hard anyways.
I can understand why some would want them. I would have, in high school, when I was searching. But perhaps... I would prefer it were a community space. Not a *temple*. a Pagan resource center, as it were! With volunteers and resources and maybe some events/outings, visits to places where one can readily find spirits, discussion groups, and tolerance for the experiences of all. I have trouble imagining this being funded, though, as a nonprofit in the US. That is my only frame of reference.
Altars.... would be wonderful. I believe that is a reasonable ideal to shoot for. I love it.
Maybe I'm a zealot, I don't know. I think we should be known, though. Shrines, Statues, whatever. We should exist beside Christianity, and should be able to exist beside Christianity. I tire of hearing pagan festivals being threatened by locals with guns. Here, and here to stay. Perhaps growing around that diversity would make individuals more accepting.
You, Arith Harger, are something of a guru for lots of people here. If you wanted the power that goes along with tax exempt status, you could easily acquire it through the presence of a temple of your own.
That's literally what I don't want. I abhor idols, I loathe religious/spiritual guides/leaders, life coaches, gurus and the sort. People don't need to follow. What we need is to exchange knowledge with one another and be free to express ourselves.
As a wicca practitioner I would say my temple is wherever I lay my circle. It can be in nature or in a room. I practiced a lot under a oak tree and this place was sacred to me. But it is true I dreamed of a goddess temple, a devotional place, maybe because of my fascination for hindu religion. But I am not sure it would be a good idea, or more than a dream, for the reasons you have exposed. The idea is not to create something coercitive but to encourage the faith in divine feminine.
ingenuity. Temple should be a place to venerate gods and read the mythology, and recreate the best documented practices as best we can.
We should avoid modern dogma from getting in and forming an organized priesthood, because at this time we don't want to sully such great traditions with modern ideologies.
A place with statues, to venerate the gods and people can have their own personal practice besides that.
No preaching unless it's in a discussion/ debating room but that is separate from religous practice.
The Hindus do it well today.
If we want to build a community, it would be helpful to have a gathering place, a place for sharing, talking and practice. An open space for everyone. Without judgmental attitudes, of course.
Would be more inclined to maybe pagan places out doors, groves, and establishing groves. And other sacred places. More then building temples.
Completely Agree 👍
i can probably come up with a pro and a con of the top of my head
Pros- it creates a physical communal space for pagans to practice their religion and do their thing, cons- due to paganism being a fairly small (in number compared to say christianity) group of religions with a long gap in it's history where it was not popularily practiced already existing temples are few and far between and most pagan communities need to come with their own funds and plans to build it which can take years and can cost alot of money
That too
I live in sacred places, and I don't need a temple for my worship since the world and my internal temple is my sacred place. But temples would do great to build community and inhabit the spirits that would join us in those temples. In such a setting, you might meet those who would never have encountered you before, and therefore grow both in world view but in active community.
My own mind has been astir lately, pondering living waddle fences, and rough woven baskets made from dried honeysuckle to foster plants in bush nurseries by the river.
I'm impassioned to create domes and arches, swaddled in wild grapes and other fruiting vines, eventually growing a yew 'cathedral' high up in the mountains by similar means.
It's a dream, but I figure the domestic portions of the endeavor would inspire others to propagate suitable habitat for themselves and nature.
I could never really do a brick and mortar temple... it would end up being a series of aquaponic pond gardens and lush orchards. I would be worlds happier to do that with my community, rather than repeat the conventions of a failing civilization.
Respondendo ao apelo/sugestão, considera-te convidado, quando desejares e puderes, para visitar o Centro Druídico da Lusitânia, as portas estarão sempre abertas, para ti e para quem vier por bem . Por outro lado, subscrevo as tuas asseverações e, em rigor, comungo das tuas preocupações, não é por acaso que recebemos sempre de braços abertos todos pagãos (e até não pagãos) que nos visitam, para celebrar, conviver e partilhar. Parabéns pelo teu trabalho, sempre pleno de rigor, honestidade intelectual e pertinência. Bem hajas. Abraço do Joaquim Pinto - Membro da Assembleia da Tradição Druídica Lusitana.
I find that the Dievturi in Latvia are approaching this well.
I'm a big supporter of temples, and halls, and community centers, because there are so few and so there is almost no heathen community. Christians have their church's, Muslims have their mosques, what do heathens have?
This is extremely interesting !
I think pagan temples are an good idea because of following points:
Cultural hub, is quite important for people to have an safe haven for their culture, to socialize and get in greater touch with the believe.
To get on the map, so we dont stay on the fringe of society but to get in the middle of it. To show we exist.
To fight ignorance, so that the people realise that theres more than the abrahamic religions.
About temples: on last week I went to another region. I saw many christian temples there... I think: What alternative? Why not another temples? And so on...
Sometimes I think that people need another church. I think to make paganist religion organisation... This status open way to get land, and join people... but... I dont know - its hard way
Temple could be in forest in field, near water like marquee, or camp. The main idea of temple: collect people for actions in secure place -> its does not matter in building or in park at the city.
Temples would be a great idea for community.
Yes I believe We all need to do our purpose why we are here on Earth… Respect for all .. As above so below… shrines are a good place to engage in deity and spirits of the land.
I still have a question. What do you think about creating altars in the home space. According to the Sagas, such were created. Won't it be a more intimate encounter with the Gods? In my area there are no people who follow the pagan path (I am just taking my first children's steps) and with all this I am rather alone. I make gifts and sacrifices to the Gods alone, but I also have nowhere to do it. On the one hand, I'm fine with being alone with it, but also not quite
I think home altars, or any sort of shrines within the private domestic space, are the first things to be created, and nowadays in neo-paganism many people start from there, and then expand the religious out doors. I myself started with a little altar in my room back when I was 15 (and then removed it over 15 years ago). When we are not quite certain where to start, such spaces in our own familiar environment are a good way to give our first steps. It is a little bit like witchcraft, especially through an animistic lens: the space of the Craft often starts at home, and then it is expanded outwards, mapping out the space the witch or sorcerer will work upon and within.
@@ArithHärger Thank you for your reply 😊
I think temples could be more of a medium for recognition and community than anything else. I’m personally not a pagan, but I’ve felt an increasing interest in the religion over the past several years. I’ve never felt connected with my abrahamic religion to a great degree and it always came off as somewhat violent and hypocritical to me (I’m not insulting the religion itself but thats how I’ve always perceived it). Paganism seems like the best alternative to me and the Animist aspect of the religion actually speaks to me in a way the abrahamic faiths don’t.
However, I will say that information on paganism is somewhat sparse beyond old chronicles and online (sometimes dubious) sources. This has made it significantly harder for me to personally get involved with the religion or any of its practices because it’s essentially winging it on the advice of people you can’t really interact with in person. Having a temple could make it easier for people interested in paganism to actually get involved in the religion, and as a byproduct grow the religion, community, and eventually gain recognition.
Yet, one of the things that drew me to paganism is it’s more decentralized nature, so I’d say that temples could function more as a place for community gathering , equal discussion, and education to newcomers rather than blind preaching or ministering. Making temples places where people are preached at just dilutes the belief and makes it a form of Christianity or Judaism with pagan aspects or beliefs. Making the discussion mutual and more focused on community gatherings and rituals where everyone has equal standing can help evolve paganism beyond being a copy of Christianity.
If paganism really wanted to assign roles to educated people there could be a person appointed as the leader of an individual temple by voting who can lead them in rituals and organize events that the temple community decides on. That way pagans can keep the corruption and elitism of a organized “church system” away from the temples, since everyone is equal in the faith and nobody can truly be considered “holier” or more validated in their own experiences than another. These individual temple leaders can then organize into a council that can decide, equally, what to exclude rather than include as official policy for the temples, such as racist gate keeping. That way no one’s belief is invalidated and the temples cannot legislate the validity of personal experience.
Any temple should also be based in nature, and any building could have gardens and vegetative areas adjacent to as part of the temple where people can pray, conduct rituals, and experience nature. The community could maintain these and grow these as a group, sorta as a way to expand rather than destroy nature for the sake of building a temple. Green spaces could also serve as locations for community gatherings, rituals, and celebrations.
The appeal of paganism, especially in a modern world, is the independence it provides and the the connection with nature. Having temples doesn’t necessarily destroy this and paganism can make it work for individual experience rather than for the sake of the temples or religious leaders. Temples would also do wonders for education, community, and recognition that could seriously help people, like me, understand and follow the faith better, without risk of encountering less than savory gate keepers and purists who want to use paganism to justify their own prejudices or political ideology.
Yes, I don't think we should distance ourselves from polictical thinga either, it helps us stay alive in a way.
I’m more of a “Pagan” hanger on as a former Christian. I find the study of our roots titillating. Beyond that basic attraction; I can’t say I feel any particular ability to put the urge to practice a faith more robustly. I’d like to start in earnest though.
Maybe when it rains. Have you considered the fact that it would be taken over by politics straight away? Then those of other political beliefs would be forced out. That's what happened to my last group. Some time ago now but I'm in no rush and very suspicious now. I will not be bullied.
My views are also skewed by personal bias because I do not have access to the sacred sites of Europe as a North American. So, please take this with a grain of salt. I think temples/structures/etc. serve a great function which allows people to practice as they see fit. Most people I know came to their path through solo searching and may or may not find a tribe of like-minded people to worship with. Spaces like this provide an opportunity for expansion in both solo and group activities. However, from a purely N. American perspective, money is a necessary evil for us. In addition to maintaining a space, we have to pay property taxes on the space and land, utilities, grounds maintenance, etc. For myself, I use the free local parks to connect with Earth and her persons because there simply is no other option.
I see the need for many places and structures. The area is as important as any structure. The goal being able to do something like light a fire, or a candle, regardless of the weather conditions at the time. Acoustics. Lighting. Ability to create permanent symbols or symbolic structures that would be immoral or illegal in public spaces. Color. Texture. Privacy. Time of day that a place is accessible. Ability to leave things like sacrifices that will be undisturbed. And space to gather groups of people, and do things which would be viewed as unconventional. I would like to see everything from neolithic earthen works to stave church like buildings to sacred groves with favorable shelter from wind and good acoustics. We need a whole damned culture and space. And we need people willing to build that, and buy that.
Our body is our temple. What else do we need? Greetings from Venezuela, our own religiously riddled, Catholic country..
Hindu, Buddhist and Shinto have temples. and they are also in the pagan category.
you should have one at least, as a part of the culture.
this is just my point of view as balinese hindu, our religion is our culture...
Build a temple, then you have a leader, next comes doctrine 😊
It can be hard for someone just starting to connect with someone not only to help them learn but also exchange ideas, but at the same time this can also be a bad thing. For me I started alone, then later both my husband and daughter became curious and now we practice together, however this doesn't mean we do things all the same. Other than old teachings I had from 2 people in my family when I was young, one being born in 1900, my great great aunt who followed her own path, the other was born in 1920, my grandma and what she taught she didn't even realize what she was teaching because it was just ingrained in her life. They both came from the Ozark Mountains, and while much magic was taught and done in a way that it was through, God or Jesus not all believed in this and many of the Mountain folk are breaking away from this. I started with one basic book that many in the US start with, (besides the teachings of long ago, but much of that I didn't really understand until the last 10 or so years and I'm now 57) the book is by Scott Cunningham and it's called Wicca. A guide for the solitary practitioner. While I do not consider myself Wiccan this was and at times still one of my go to things. One important point he makes is that magic and what ever path you choose is ment to grow and expand in each person, in the way that is going to be different for each person, he also points out that one of the best things about being solitary is you can pull from whatever works with and you are lead to things and ways that works for you. In some ways there are already temples and with that a my way or no way of doing things. I had found a coven, but things always took place at the same place and was chosen by the high priestess and priest. There were also all the strictness of it's only their rules, this also caused other problems as well, especially since the high priestess had a thing for my husband both in a sexual and wanting to be with him altogether. She also was always like he's a real witch, but also tried to put my daughter and I into different categories. This is a abusive of power and of magic, eventually it took us almost breaking up and a couple of visits from both family that had already crossed, but that of the others as well. Never use magic to try to control another because eventually no matter what free will, will break through and then the caster will face many problems. But again I have come across other coven's and it was the same, everything took place at one place and you had to follow their ways. To me that is to much like a church and all the churches and restrictions thay have and that is what is causing people to leave the churches. With restrictions and confinement things can not grow and expand. A few years back something hit me out of nowhere, that is the others decided it was time for me to grow in a big way, both opening things back up that I had buried long ago as happens just because of the world and it's believe around us. Also adding new things that I don't remember ever having. Part of this is my mind was thrown open to a kind of magic many don't seem to bother with or understand and that is visualization magic, part of that makes it easier to connect with the others, because people have become so strict and made their own temples even if outdoors it's still their way or the highway, especially since they don't understand how you have grown. There are groups on the internet that welcome all and the only rules are treat others with respect and not to be down on someone that believes in a different way from others, you just need to watch a group after you join to make sure that's really how they believe in this way there is some kind of connection with others and learn from others, but I know this is not for everyone. One thing about the US military all 5 branches (that includes the Coast Guard) have started recognizing different types of Paganism and add more each year, this is a start of being accepted by the regular population. As I know this is mostly a US problem, I would worry about building a temple just because of those that hate and fear. There have been mass shootings in places of worship for all 3 of the main religions. Do to the hate and fear of others about any kind of Paganism. The idea of a place that all can come to and worship in their own way and if feel lead leave offerings as lead, but again you can not let someone or some other group take it over. We practice what we can outside but the winters make that next to impossible, not to mention we rent so there is no privacy. So no I don't believe in temples even if it's a place outside that a group of just a certain way and no other ways. To me and my family how each of us practice can be very different from each other. At any kind of temple weather ment to at the start or not they become become like any other church or ancient temple and all start asking for money in some way for something. I think the one good thing that came out of lockdown during covid was many that were in coven's and such had to start learning and doing on their own. This has led to a explosion of people finding their true hearts path and many no longer belong or do exactly as their coven had said, their minds, hearts, and souls have been expanded to new ways and heights and they are liking it very much. I think if anything having a shrine for all is a awesome idea as long as people don't let it be overtaken by one set of people. We have alters and shrines and other things in our home, to us our beliefs are not just confined to just certain days of the year or the full moon. It is something we live and just naturally do everyday. I also agree we each in our own way do all we can to save mother earth. For me since I am disabled now I can't do protest and such, but I spread the word on the net on any platform I am on, one thing has been I am a water protector and that doesn't mean just for the land's of the Native American Nations that means for all, the water protectors also help and get the word out about farmers that are in the fight as well. I live in Kansas and the pipeline that we have been fighting against especially where it's at, at the head waters of the Missouri river comes through part of Kansas and developed a leak into a creek that goes into a river not to mention the damage it's doing to the farmlands on either side. The company is supposed to be cleaning it up but will not let anyone check on the site they have ever maneged to keep drone's from flying over, won't let local or state officels in to check, they are even blocking the farmers from checking things out, all this is being spread across the net because this is wrong. This is some of the things we must fight, we must fight the elagel gathering of native plants to sell them especially from the sacred places of those that truly have the full right to all the lands here, from the hill folk that these plants are a part of their ways there are proper ways to do things we all most learn about the things we buy and how it was collected and where it was grown, even call the company and ask if you get the run around then don't trust them. Ok sorry this was so long but so much of what you said matches my heart and souls way and path. May the Lord and Lady watch over you. Blessings to everyone, and much love and light.
És Português? Descobri o teu canal recentemente e estou a adorar!
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Hey! Epah sou Português sim senhor :P hehe. Fico contente por saber que estás a gostar. Espero que continues a gostar aqui do conteúdo que tenho vindo a criar. Obrigado e um abraço!
@@ArithHärger isso é incrível! É tão bom haver este tipo de conteúdo por cá! Eu faço arte com muita simbologia e este canal ajuda-me a ter ideias para as minhas peças. Sou grande fã, continua com o excelente trabalho! Grande abraço do Porto.
As roman i feel more confortable with a community to celebrate and debate about "sacred laws", wich are "materialized" into a place of worship, a common altar. The altar is the most important structure, in a wood to protect, in a city's lot to redevelop etc. The community living in a place is sustained by its gods, a genius loci, ancestors, tutelary deities etc. All should give respect and the lonely practice is something anybody can cultivate at home.
it is so hard to remain free. Seriously , i have seen friends repeatedly get into an idea of things (paganism) and it doesn't take long that it is about the collected objects - the correct wand etc And to be sure there will be a store that will sell you what you need blessed by the right person. And pretty soon the adaption of guilt and concerns of sin. Oops what happened there. any time i have explored something and have an idea of 'lets try this' , i will seek to learn how to make my own 'what ever' be it a twig for a wand , or gather all i need to make a drum from scratch. Getting your hands dirty, freezing while sitting at the crossroads for a night reminds of what is sacred. This is my way - of course not what i think any one 'should'' do to be valid. I do not carry any tools with me, anything i have made in the past i have given to a friend or back to nature. i think now all i need know is what the patterns in the sky, the flight of birds and the feeling in the wind can teach me. Thankyou for this video Arith.
In principle I do think a world with temples to the gods is preferable to one without, but I agree with many of your points. The questions of who runs and controls a temple and therefore gets to decide what kind of worship is or isn't practised is a hard one to get right, less so with shrines and outdoors sanctuaries on public land.
The best idea I have come up with that seems feasable is that any temple would belong to a community of worship that already does practice togeather and thus has some level of internal agreement. Then much as it is now, the question of "can I/ do I want to worship at this temple?" is the same you would already ask now when inquiring about a pagan community "do they welcome me and do I want to associate with them?". The bigots and nationalists would have their own temples I suppose but the rest of us can just not go there, just like anyone who has sense avoids their company already.
I don't think temples can solve any internal pagan issues, but they wouldn't necessarily make them worse either. And the gods could be worshiped in their temples again, which I think would be neat.
I'm not sure about a "temple", as such. Which flavor of paganism would be represented? I think a mulit-pagan community center would be more useful. It could be used for religious rites, but that would not be it's primary purpose.
This would also make space (hopefully) for practitioners who's focus is not religious to socialize and engage in non-Abrahamic spiritual community.
I believe mother earth is our temple
What about music festivals? Those are kind of like flash or temporary temples.
I do, but mainly as place of education. A grove in the middle or back should be more centric, as the temple you showed. I always wanted the means to build a Hoff or shrine for any pagans to go visit.
temples are important to give your "community' a place that belongs to them and their needs and desires. in most ancient cultures we see temples being erected, or sacred spaces being somehow set aside form daily life, singling them out as special. I personally prefer a nice feast hall where you meet up to share a meal and discuss things cogent to your peer group...Do these types of things "legitimize" your theology? In a way yes. It establishes you presence in the broader social community. Are they necessary to conduct worship? No. They may actually lead to a too rigid hierarchy of people to take ownership of the place, and therefor the actual worship being conducted, bending to their will alone. there needs to be, as in all things, a balance between your visible anchor in the world, and the spirituality that it is attempting to mainstream.
I think in this matter it's important to get to the essence of paganism and make a distinction with how people approach paganism. E.g. what makes paganism as it is, what is it essence? Maybe the belief in fate, the shared notions of honour, the act of sacrifice or belief in animism? How people approach the essence, however, is totally up to them. If a group e.g. wishes to build a temple to a certain deity (let's say Thuner) and sacrifice to that deity, that's totally fine. If another group wishes to build a temple to Wodan, than that's fine too. As long as the essential methods (like e.g. the act of sacrifice) takes place. To WHOM these methods apply is totally open to the group in question.
The temple's location is also important in my opinion, regarding which practices are able to be performed. E.g. a temple built near a forest or clearing is more able to perform outdoor practices, than a temple built near or in an urban area. In the former's case the temple could act as a meeting place, whilst some practices themselves might be done outdoors. In the latter's case practices might preferably be done indoors.
Those are my ideas about the subject.
I think that if temples are to be implemented they should be used more as a gathering places rather than a formal institution (meaning that there is no hierarchy or institutional agenda or standard) for pagans to come and talk about their experiences discuss philosophy, perform community rituals, etc. but these temples would should include outdoor spaces as much as possible gardens sacred groves and the like with a building being for shelter from bad weather days or for what ever reason people can not be outdoors. Cause lets face it no body wants to attend a ritual or feast in the rain.
That is a good idea, but you still hafta have people to maintain the place, pay bills, etc
I am a neo-Pagan and I have no desire for a temple. All of Nature is my temple - why would I even want to go to a "building" or "structure" to express my faith? If I want to pray, I pray. If I want to sacrifice, I sacrifice. I do not need to wait for a "holy day" or wait until I can go to a "temple" to do what I feel led to do.
And I follow this path on my own - I do not need "affirmation" from anyone or any group. That is not meant to sound "arrogant" - just that the only "community" I have found is on-line.
To be fair, ancient pagans had their temples and shrines. Other religions such as Hinduism and Shintoism still have their shrines.
@@bezoticallyyours83 Quite true! I was not denying the existence of any "Pagan" temples - just that I (personally) do not feel a need for one to express my faith. Most "gatherings" that represent "Pagan" faiths tend to be held outdoors as the presence of a roaring bonfires is frowned upon in enclosed spaces. 😆
@@random2829 I agree that roaring bonfires in enclosed spaces are very naughty and bad. Lol
I think I'd like to build them. I don't think we're doomed or can't practice without them, but with them, we make great wonders of the world that glorify the gods..
It alsonalows for artistic expression and inginuity.
Absolutely right bröder. Skál!