One difference I noticed wich distinguished between borderline and vulnerable very clearly was the fact, that the borderline has many clear moments in wich they see what is going wrong, or that they are wrong somehow. The vulnerable narcissist is NEVER wrong, always just the others or the circumstances.
Dr. Ramani concurs. She states the absence of shame/remorse clearly distinguishes the NPD. However, she seems to speak mainly of grandiose NPD. Does the covert NPD show remorse? Occasionally? Particularly if they are also BPD? If so, it's even harder to distinguish convert NPD and borderlines. I know a NPD-BPD who seemed sincerely remorseful on rare occasion, but absolutely refused to admit wrong under any and all circumstances. Guilt feelings, zero accountability. Weird.
Agree. The absence of guilt/shame marks the narcissist apart from the BPD. This absence is a marker of absence of conscience, which leads on down the line to psychopathy.
in the end, i don t get why it really matters. They are just big assholes with a brain arrested at the age of 6. They have unresolved trauma but they won't do shit to fix themselves. That's it.
@@williamblake5289 lol who hurt you? this comment doesnt acknowledge the complexity and nuance of personality disorders. you do realize if these people could just fix everything with ease that 100% of them would? its almost like you didnt even watch th video
@@williamblake5289 Except some of us actually DO do shit to fix ourselves. Quite a lot of us do. Yet our efforts are seldom recognized by people like you who are blessed to be mentally stable. The degree of introspection/maturity it takes to even accept that there's something inherently wrong with us-- not to mention the painful blow it takes to what little self esteem we have-- is not appreciated enough. Altering and monitoring our behavior 24/7 just to function in society. Being proud because we went months without destroying a relationship, AND we managed to trick everyone into thinking we're neurotypical. Then we let our guard down for one second, and we slip. Suddenly our friends are gone. Punishment for being a toxic menace to society. All the work we did to accommodate ourselves for others, to empathize with those who think differently than we do, goes unacknowledged and unreciprocated. After all, no one owes us anything right? We are mentally ill, and therefore not able to be trusted, and most importantly, not worthy of love. The suicide rate for BPD makes sense now.
@@williamblake5289 its always easy to call people assholes but its much harder trying to understand why they pissed you off that much. Maybe that is the real question, why you never forgave them?
I have been diagnosed with BPD and feel a lot of the vulnerable traits relate to me . They relate most when I'm upset about something and a loved one won't validate me. I am aware of some of my triggers and don't want to blame them on the person, I'm desperately trying to change myself, but I feel they aren't trying to understand me and continuously trigger me. It makes me feel like they don't care if they hurt me , even if my triggers are my own fault . I don't want to make others feel bad. I don't want to be an evil person. I want to be able to help myself when these traits come out. I feel like nobody knows how to communicate and I have no control over my emotions and the things I do. :(
As someone on the other side of BPD, I'm sure it's very hard for you, but wow...you seem very aware of yourself and your needs. Might you and your friend consider therapy. I'll bet it's hard for 99.2% of people to know how to work with it, including most Therapists. Keep going, healing is a SLOW process, but everything helps. I had a nervous breakdown and self isolated two year until I finally came out of it, working on my feelings the entire time.
@@kirstinstrand6292 I wrote this a while back, I was actually referring to a 2 year relationship I was in. I invited him to my therapy sessions many times but he never showed up. I have finished therapy after 9 months and have finally started to get my life back a little since breaking up with him. I have some new awesome friends. Im still finding triggers difficult...I'm trying to use DEAR when upset about something but find others still devalue my feelings sometimes. I never know if I'm being a bad person or not it makes me feel so shit and completely confused on what's going on. I'm constantly trying to figure out if it's them or me 😒
@@battydragon3399 i can completely connect with you. Like totally. I am in a relationship too... He doesn't seem to be interested in any of these things.. Anyway your story gave me hope that I can get better. Lots of love and hugs.
I'm diagnosed with Npd (covert) and Bpd. But I'm aware of my personality,I don't want to hurt people so I distance myself from society. Great video btw.
@@JoelBradley05 yes and no. my bpd is comorbid with npd,so i have selective or no empathy at all. I do love animals and children thats where my selective emphaty go. But most pwbpd can. They need love and they will love u.
Don’t you think distancing yourself from people is worse for you in the long run? I mean if you’re self aware and make a mistake people don’t necessarily have a problem as long as you accept it. Do you think having someone who can call you out on your bs but also keep it separate from your relationship help?
@@Clown-ns8xq my comment was from 2 years ago,so now after and during my therapy(im still going) I can say yes to your question. Now i can take criticism well, menage my emotions well, I can stop my negative thoughts,think and really regulate my actions. But i cant be in a romantic relationships. You see most bpd symptoms escalate when you are in a relationship. My npd is not really my problem. Im not an asshole i dont want to hurt people. I just dont care about them🤷🏽♀️
@@Anack-Su-Namunthank you for answering here after two years! I might have a bit of a similar case - bpd, vulnerable narcissism, paranoia. So I am really interested in what kind of therapy you have? DBT?
The vulnerable narcissist. I never knew it had a name. I always referred to these individuals as having a "martyr" complex. They are so tiresome to be around because "oh poor me look how I am afflicted by these horrible people that are more horrible than I."
I had a parent who was a narcissist and a low functioning sociopath; he (1927-2017) was never diagnosed or treated. If he wasn't the center of attention he was simply not interested. If he told you something in "confidence" about a certain individual you would be certain that whatever he told you was a lie. Growing up he was physically abusive to all of his children; I have faint echoes of memories of him being physically abusive to mom (I would not want to testify in a court of law if he actually caused physical harm to mom my memory is just not strong enough for that.). After mom died in 2002 he slowly alienated all of his of children - he seemed to be most happy when he tried to set his children against each other of course growing up with this we could all see it as it was and never fell for it. The last 5 years of his life he spent alone in a hospital. As the oldest how messed up is this? When any of my younger siblings got scared because of a nightmare they had or because of monsters under the bed instead of crawling into bed with their parents, they would crawl into bed with me; I can't remember all the times that I woke up to find one or even two of my brothers in my bed. My brothers were all good hockey players so much so that during the 1970's and early 1980's they all had been actively scouted by a number of NHL scouts for the Blues, Bruins and the Maple Leaf's. You would have expected that a normal parent would have been proud of that - but of course not from the one we had. Or when one of my brothers got really sick with Crones disease and lost all of his large intestine and several feet of his small intestine and as a result he lost considerable weight and we were not certain if he was going to survive. When after almost a month in the hospital he was finally released mom wanted to stay home and look after one of her children and imagine being told by your husband that I need you to continue to work for me doing the books (mom never got paid) instead of staying home to look after one of their children. Fortunately our aunt Peggy was able to step in and we sent James to another province for 6 months to recover. When I got a BSc in Clinical Psychology with a minor in Biochemistry, BSc & Masters in Computer Science and PhD in Computer Science & Engineering most parents would have been proud of their daughters achievement - mom was so very proud of me; from him no reaction at all. To be honest by that time in my life I never really expected one but .... I made the conscience effort not refer to him as dad, father or any term of affection simply because he never earned it.
@ Vesta Freyja. You are simply amazing ❤️. I couldn't overcome my parental abuse, coupled with my good father's early death, and subsequent Narcissistic, Covert abuse Stepfather, Narc Mother. I'm still floundering... that's my reason for being here. To keep trying. I have many gifts and abilities I'd willingly share. I often do, but the personal price has been very high, relative to my survival and health, prosperity and happiness. Best wishes to all here.
I was a Canadian champion in athleticism on the first page of the local journal. But my mom asked me to stop athleticism. And them my brother repair his bike, and my mom says: "This is extraordinary." Took me 44 years to understand she is simply a monster. Does the DSM covers monsters yet? LOL :D
Insightful videos. Having a Mother with what I believe to having Borderline Personality and understanding how that has affected me with relation to substance abuse and perhaps creating a covertbpd/vulnerable narcisim in my self has allowed me yo accept and try and change. It's hard though when nobody in your family wants to believe the trauma we have all at some point inflicted on eachother. Best thing is to change your life and find your own family .
Tbh if you were truly narcissistic you wouldn't be so self reflective and able to see a issue narcs run from their issues and faults they will do anything to avoid change and won't admit anything is wrong
I'm the only one of my siblings that needed to figure things out. We all were damaged in different ways. I finally after nearly a lifetime decided to divorce all my sibs. After doing so, it was peaceful not feeling the need to interact with them any longer. I think I was even able to figure out my parent's issues that resulted in such a dysfunctional family, sadly. So yes, sometimes it's best to move on. Now, there is very minimal contact; I just wish I hadn't waited so long.
Doc, I appreciate your explanations of things I've been dealing with all my life. I'm 54 and just now learning about my mind. It's hindered me all my life. You are definitely helping put things in perspective. I'm also seeking help. Gonna try to enjoy what's left. Thanks✌️
I know right? He literally seems to have a video that applies to every one of my problems. And I have a very, very wide range of problems from addiction to survivors guilt to BPD to sexual assault survival to an eating disorder. I could go on but I won't take your time 😂 I go to counseling but I feel like the counselor is already biased because it's a reflection of my perception. Not here. Completely unbiased
@@laureneannedeloggio7479 narcissists do the smear campaign, not borderline. I’ve BPD and before it was treated, I’d just bitch for hours about whoever it was to my mom
i’ve been watching hundreds of clinical psychologists covering bpd and i have to say dr. Grande’s is by far the most comprehensive and he breaks it down so well for a layman like myself, please continue spreading the knowledge and awareness of this disorder!
I've was feeling like my ex with bpd was displaying narcissistic traits, and this vulnerable narcissism appears to match up with that. I would like to learn more about it. Thank you!
My older sister, who I think of as a covert narcissist with NPD, has some distinctly BPD traits. She often love people immediately, and then would suddenly shut it off. She has always been tormented by extreme jealousy, and intense fear of abandonment; but she treats everyone close to her terribly, grills us for information to use against us, shames and gaslights us, cultivates flying monkeys, and then she can't understand why we don't just love and adore her.
This video explains the narcissism I have seen in my sister with BPD. I see the narcissism as having had a protective function. It has probably kept her from the self harm seen with BPD. She constantly threatens but I think that narcissism clicks in. Along with ticking all the boxes for BPD she has that entitlement and envy seen with narcissism. And if you dont enable her or rescue her you are a bad person. She is pretty high functioning but the death of our mother seemed to cause decompensation. Our mother was the only person she had not alienated in our family. You know how faithful moms can be. As mature adults some of us have tried to pull her back into the fold. It almost seems she has to punish us by rejecting us. She doesn't know when she refuses our overtures we breath a sigh of relief. It would feel like more of a punishment if she became a part of our lives.
goodness. this is exactly my sister - even down to our mother's death. i have long since decided that she needs to rescue herself -- that's the only way she'll start to improve her mind.
You breathe a sigh of relief? She probably refuses your efforts to reconnect with her because she knows how disingenuous you are. How disgusting to offer something to someone you truly do not want to give. If you're not interested in having her in your life, don't pretend that you are.
Dr Grande your videos are very concise without compromising accuracy, very interesting. For most lay people I'd say the difference may be best identified with the individual's empathy levels and how hard they work at becoming well and not hurting those around them. Genuine efforts can be hard to identify as they can be superficially mimicked. BPD alone may go to great lengths at their own personal detriment to avoid causing distress in others. When narcissism is co-morbid I suspect they view themselves as the only one who's suffering matters.
I have this diagnosis. It's a recent diagnosis.i have been single for 5 years even though I could have many relationships. I know I have nothing to offer after that initial 3 months of intense feelings. I get bored and feel a bit contemptuous as soon as someone says they love me. I'm not a horrible person so avoid sexual relationships entirely. Point is, we might be 'dangerous' people (although is dispute that) but I personally, am quite considerate of others feelings because I do feel guilty for ruining their lives. I took her years to recognize, but once I did I stopped hurting people.
@@pennyhutchins2548 You mean the BPD diagnosis? Your self awareness is amazing. I truly respect your consideration for others. A young woman with BPD caused enormous trauma to my son, and to the rest of our immediate family; and they were only together as a couple for a few months. It's taken us several years to recover. That sounds crazy to say out loud, but it's true.
As vulnerable narcissist Lol i have fear of abandonment but i don’t use it to manipulate other people as the malignant narcissists do, my fear of abandonment manifest often as fear of intimacy and closeness .
I always thought Borderline is created by NPD parents, or those closest. Not JUST this way, but I believe I had enough symptoms to be diagnosed borderline UNTIL I was able to remove myself from the toxic NPD people.
I think I'm BPD/Vulnerable. I check off all the criteria, but I try not to let it affect other people. And that makes me withdrawn, which leads to some suicidal ideation. I just have like deeply rooted abandonment issues that fuck with me when I get stressed out.
I appreciate the insight, Dr Grande! In my experience, the overlap between BPD and vulnerable NPD seems to go hand-in-hand. I’m no expert, but it’s my understanding that a grandiose NPD is not so emotionally volatile, “narc rage” is not as much of an issue and that they don’t expose their emotions to others with that kind of unstable meltdown. The vulnerable NPD seems so, incredibly unstable and threatened that the symptoms seem to much more strongly correlate to BPD. The insecure, unstable self is so fragile in them, as though they’re built on sand and the grandiose individual, on rock.
@Ryan C, absolutely! The Cluster B PDs seem to be on a spectrum, blending and melding a bit, rather than being strictly defined as one or another. There's no saying that one can't be a bit (or a lot) of multiple types or also that one is really more straight BPD or NPD. Comorbidity seems common, but also is not always the case. These are human-defined observations and it is what it is, regardless of what we name it.
@Ryan C, absolutely! The Cluster B PDs seem to be on a spectrum, blending and melding a bit, rather than being strictly defined as one or another. There's no saying that one can't be a bit (or a lot) of multiple types or also that one is really more straight BPD or NPD. Comorbidity seems common, but also is not always the case. These are human-defined observations and it is what it is, regardless of what we name it.
An aspect of vulnerable narcissism is wishing for things like relationships, the perfect job, fame, riches, etc. and believing that they deserve them too. But deep down they can be terrified of not meeting those expectations, so they are very prone to giving up at the first sign of adversity, to not risk asking the object of their affection out, to produce art or writing but not risk showing it to people. All the while they are consumed with bitterness, they often see themselves as unrecognised geniuses. They are particularly resentful towards successful people as they feel that they personally deserve what that successful person has. Often they will end up in a relationship with someone who has low self-esteem. They may victimise them psychologically, insult them and so forth, but they will at the same time be terrified of losing them. A particular manifestation of this is the parent who resents their children or partner because they "ruined their life" or "crushed their dreams". In the end it's a coping strategy, if they never try then they wont be publicly exposed as frauds or as inferior. Not trying allows them to live in a fantasy world of the success they could have had if only the world would see what they believe is obvious.
That is true i was with one vulnerable narcisist he is not the fighter but how ever still they are dangerous and liar, they are not what they tell themselves. They will eat away ur mental health, sanity and physical health. There is no good to be near em in anyway just save ur self dont sacrifice ur self all ur effort will just go to a black hole It never come back
This is excellent; well organized, clear, user-student friendly. I really appreciate your videos. We need them to understand ourselves and the world around us. I am totally against the stigmatization of mind self-care. Human beings are like a coin: on one side is physical care, on the other side is mind and spiritual care. For whatever reason, we have been shame-taught not to honor our mind care needs. This only leaves room for confusion and prolonged lack of total being health. Your videos are so good for those of us not content to live in the fog of confusion. Thank you for makine the time to share this knowledge with us.
Very informative and concise. I feel this has been the case with two of my ex boyfriends. Covertly manipulative, self-centered, inability to apologize, deflecting responsibility onto me, and a new one, a real kicker, intermittent reinforcement.
So many stories of such difficult times in the comments. I just want to wish everyone Peace of Mind. I have found more peace now I understand why my parents behaved as they did. It is definitely worth putting some time into developing understanding.
I dealt with someone for 20 years and it took me a long time to fully open my eyes and understand what I was dealing with. He had many NPD traits but also overlapping with BPD. This is the video I was looking for.
Nice work,it takes a special person to be a mental health pro.its a challenge just dealing with one person with some of these disorders let alone a constant stream.
Greetings from Germany Wow ! Helping me understand my behavior patterns so much better. Helping me so much easier to step aside and choose alternative adequate behaviors. Smooting the over identification with my personality constructions.
I’m so glad I listened to this. It was reassuring to hear that co-morbidity can exist. I have an ex who was diagnosed with NPD, but his relentless onslaught for 5 years after I rejected him seemed borderline. So I was very confused with what was happening and what I was dealing with. Because most things you read about NPD, they just do the character assassination, manipulate others to harass, project, sometimes do some legal abuse and vexatious litigation and discard people, they don’t seem to relentlessly stalk, harass, abuse, vandalise, break in, play the victim, threaten suicide etc too, which is what I was experiencing... the most severe behaviours of both personality disorders rolled into one. After hearing this my experience makes more sense. Thank you 🙏
I. Relieve this to be exactly the diagnosis of a loved one , at first I thought she was straight NPD, but a therapist pointed the factors of BPD with Narcissistic Traits , I see how this can be missed because both conditions can mirror each other !
Ok I figured out why I love your videos so much 💕 It's because when I'm in counseling, personal or marriage I feel like the counselor can't help but be biased. Their opinion is already a reflection of our situation (I think that's the point lol) But I really love this completely unbiased analysis, not influenced by any personal information. Thanks
these are great vids. thanks for helping me understand myself better. I am definitely the trail of destruction type BPD, and finally met a provider who had me try Lamotrigine and it has dramatically improved my life. I am now trying to grapple with what I now understand to be vulnerable narcissism- a trait I can see obviously in my mother as well. I guess apples don't fall far from trees.
Great explanation. Having BPD tendencies, i engaged in CBT for my anxiety and dysthymia. I kept telling my therapist that i see narcisistic traits in myself and that was spot on, but he was telling me that a narcissist wouldnt go into therapy or even admit that he has those tendencies being self aware of them. Reading about it i identified mostly with the vulnerable part of it. Dont know what my therapist's goal was by not seeing what i was seeing, or maybe i was hiding it unconsciously in relationship with him, and only spoke of it in relationship with others. Dont know. Doing therapy i think made those tendencies go "lower" but they still appear during very hard moments. This is a good video, explains much about what i discovered in myself. thank you so much
If someone has had emotional dysregulation and attachment issues (causing the traits of borderline personality disorder), it seems to me that over the years/decades - after many arguments and repeated rejections by other people - they would naturally feel inadequate and become more withdrawn to avoid further conflict. It also seems understandable that due to all the rejection by others and arguments with others year after year they would grow more and more self-critical, shame-filled, and low in self-esteem. It also makes sense to me they would be even more emotionally sensitive because when one has been rejected and attacked so many times for being too emotional and clingy, it becomes a reasonable expectation that this is what human beings do - they attack and criticize you. The conclusion, based on repeated evidence, is that probably one is being criticized/attacked yet again anytime one is spoken to about behavior or affect. Does this, therefore, characterize a comorbid disorder or a natural response set and group of beliefs which makes perfect sense based on everything they have seen and experienced? Labels can describe a list of behaviors, but I wish those in the field would more often discuss this in human terms. People are more able to change when they feel understood. And others are more understanding when we see why they are the way they are. When we read each other in human terms rather than slap others with labels.
Well put, this is something that has always puzzled me about my disordered ex. She is a 45 yr old high functioning assistant neurosurgeon with Crohn's disease who is a completely different person than the textbook BPD. She has always been independent, and basically lived alone even when she was married because her now deceased husband was a pro golfer always on the road. She did do the same idealization, devaluing, splitting, ghosting, gaslighting, discard cycle common with Borderlines, but she had much more extreme mood lability symptoms. Sudden crying, anger, laughing at weird times. Talked like a little girl at times "You do have love for me! You're my person!" Never clingy, and only needy when she was depressed and needed emotional support from me. She reminded me more of a cat. A don't come to me I'll come to you when I need you attitude. Constantly telling me she's not normal and very selfish and to not settle for her saying I deserved better. She would want me to go away and date other women, but call me right back to be with her a week later. She definitely exhibited some narcissistic traits. Once she told me in a serious conversation "I have been anointed by God to do what I do" and "my techs and nurses all worship at my feet" it would be funny if it was sarcasm, but she was serious! She also made all conversations redirect to herself. If I talked to her about my back injury she would say something like "oh that was not serious, my pain is much worse" She is also an admitted alcoholic and seemed to only be happy and emotionally open up more when drinking. The next day she would be cold and indifferent and often text how she did not feel good about opening up to me and being impulsive. So BPD or NPD? flip a coin I guess.
Thank you!! I wanted to rule out BPD for myself despite thinking I was unstable deep down, although I guess I am really it's masked by that nonchalantness. Vulnerable narcissism is a perfect fit not only from the test online, but also your description of it. Don't relate to overt npd, but still requite attention and have a bit of 'compensatory vanity' if you can call it that, although my issues are more in line with what you described. Basically no genuine self-worth at all so you 'compensate' for that with other things, makes sense after all the years of wondering why I'm so vulnerable, defensive, shame-ridden etc. I think vulnerables are like 'mild' bpd+avpd on an unconscious level. I also don't relate to overt NPD in the sense that I don't really devalue others because of what they have or haven't done, and only do that in a temporary response to a slight or insult in some way, but don't really show it outwards.
You may as well be add. If you are manupulative npd if not add. Or you can perform a chemical test, after taking mdma if you can still enjoy fiddeling your phone npd if not add.
@PrettyNeckslashes only anectodal evidence from my own life ( sociopathe, somatic narssisist and bpd) and confessions of diagnosed psycopathes can be found on internet.
@PrettyNeckslashes in my view there is two types of people in this world autistics and psycopathes. Both cocaine and mdma can be used to differentiate these two. If cocaine makes you sober you are autistic makes you manic you are psycopathe. If mdma makes you sober you are psycopathe, makes you love bug autistic. And difference between these two types of people is psycopathes have a lazy amygdala, causing incapacity to form emotional personal unconscious. By taking a lot of alcohol psycopathic spectrum try to experience normalcy.
Please nobody take medical advice from the guy who wants everyone to diagnose their mental illnesses via drug abuse. I'm no doctor, but I'm willing to take a stand and say that is horrible advice.
Thank you, Dr. Grande. You're slowly helping me understand myself. I know I'm borderline but I just dont understand myself even tho I'm aware of some behaviours. Thank you.
Thank you so much for this video, along side with all of your other videos, Dr Grande. Learning more about borderline and vulnerable narcissism has really helped me understand more about a relationship I was in several years ago, that traumatizes me even to this day with pretty major commitment issues as a consequence. I'll not ramble on for too long but the guy in question was 5 years older than me, thus 25 at the time, and I still always figured he was emotionally immature. Now, I'm starting to wonder if he was suffering from borderline and/or vulnerable narcissism (or traits thereof). Basically, it was always DRAMA. If there wasn't an argument, one would almost had to be invented. It was as if our relationships needed drama to be alive? The arguments were usually nonsensical and seemed silly, even at the time. He could get upset over the slightest little thing (criticism in particular). There was something very passively agressively over his style because he would either just not answer me or he would have this sulky tone. Once when I joked or "teased" him at the start of our relationship (like women sometimes do, often pertaining to sex) he started to cry unrelentlessly and told me I was mocking him. Once, he broke up with me and then called me after four-five days and threatened me that he would slash his throat if I didn't take him back. (That's not the only time he threatened with suicide, once he called me from a bridge.) He told me that he loved me almost instantly (which was creepy as hell but I was young and didn't have the guts to back off). Some things that he did and said I cannot write here. They are just too painful and hurtful. But it included some violence and abuse (psychologically most of the time but not exclusively). Aside from his EXTREME sensitivity (intense emotions), impulsivity and need for drama, what might stand out the most was his extreme idealization of me. I was just soooo perfect, so beautiful and lovely in every single way. I know Dr Grande spoke about this in another video, about how vulnerable narcissists nestle themselves into your life through intense admiration and flattery. I think what was really interesting about this particular person is that he would even say that he needed me, that he couldn't survive without me, and thus forcing me into a caretaking role where I could only live through him and my whole purpose in life was to please him and make him happy. As soon as that relationship was over, I could finally feel free. Like a bird that had been let out of her cage. Unfortunately, it's a bird that is now scarred and scared. But viewing these videos does help me grasp not only WHAT actually happened but also WHY and HOW, thereby aiding my healing process. I now know what - and who - to avoid. For that, I am ever grateful to you, Dr Grande!
I left a partner similar to yours. It was an emtional rollercoaster and I felt that I had to be a caretaker as well. He needed a lot of structure in his life and I kept having to tell him what to do and also follow up on him to make sure he had done that. I didn't mind the caretaking role so much, but it was the constant mood swings and how he could erupt at the smallest of things which led me to leave the relationship. I felt I had a 6ft toddler who could be extremely loving and sweet, yet throw the worst (emotionally abusive, with some shoving, banging and heaps of yelling) tantrum just an hour later. Watching Dr Todd Grande's and Dr Daniel Fox's videos have given me more insight, and with that, some sense of closure. I do wonder though - is it even possible to treat someone who has BDP and vulnerable narcissism co-morbidities?
Sounds like histrionic traits. But cluster B personality disorders overlap so much it's just really eye opening. It's like the psychiatrists are directly talking about my ex.
As someone who was told I probably have EUPD I’ve been doing lots of reading to try and understand myself and my reactions better. After reading, I do also recognise alot of The behaviour and tought patterns in covert narcissism. I must say, I have never wanted to conflict pain on others. I do my best to not hurt anyone. I often feel like I’m trapped, like there is this strong forces in me that I have no control over. I dont want to be like this, yet, I feel like this is all I am. Been in therapy on and off since 7-8 years old. Started my current therapy in december 2021, and all I want is to get to a more healthy stable place mentally.
I'm 27 male (sister took over my youtube) lol. I'd just like say I've been watching these videos for just over a month now and i am alot smarter and have alot more insight thank you so much for helping me and everyone else 🙏😊
You know, I never leave RUclips comments but I have to say you really are methodical and knowledgeable in your field, especially in regards to Narcissism and BPD. And thank you for including Mother/Daughter video’s on these topics. I’m in therapy because of my mother’s severe narcissism and BPD but in the meantime, listening to you helps me understand the confusion/pain I have been living under for 30 years. Thanks, Dr.Grande.
Great video! I always suspected my mother to be a vulnerable narcissist, but after watching this video, I’m wondering whether she is borderline with pathological vulnerable narcissism. I will never know for sure as she would NEVER agree to counseling. I guess it doesn’t really matter at this point, as I have gone low-contact with consistent boundaries put in place to minimize the damage she is capable of. Thank you, Dr. Grande 😊
A narcissist won't go to a therapist, they literally need to have a crisis, or a come to Jesus moment to shake them up enough to want to get help. I'm glad you have set healthy boundaries because a narcissist is like a hurricane and you are the exposed little house on the beach if you don't distance yourself.
If you don’t mind my asking, did you develop/pick up any of her traits? I think I have BPD and I pray my daughter doesn’t develop this torturous disorder...
The more I learn about vulnerable narcissism, the more I think "that's me!". I used to suspect having BPD but man... Now idk I'm just lost. I wish some psychiatrist just told me "that's what you have and that's what we're gonna do about it!" cause improving on your own is like, "where do I start?".
Thank you! My ex was diagnosed with BPD in her late teens. Having lived with her during isolation I realized she has many covert NPD traits. The only thing she was missing was the anger. When I talked about it with her she said "I can't be because I don't have uncontrollable anger"
I already sensed that the overlap between BPD and vulnerable narcissism was mostly gender-based, especially as I've met more women with BPD who have empathy/display remorse when having episodes while some men diagnosed with BPD whom I meet tend to display more internal shame regarding their self-worth as men rather than their episodes affecting others. I've also seen men shift between extremes of shame and depression and grandiose sense of self-importance. With women, this isn't always the case, it's more of splitting on other people.
Wow! This answers so many questions. I used to think that my ex`s BPD was either probably misdiagnosed, or that it was a made up lie in order for her to get her way with me. Considering how many characteristics of both BPD and NPD she seemed to have i was very confused. I was looking for data to support and explain the co-occurence of BPD and NPD, and this video answered most of my questions. Also, the concept of pathological narcissism adds more depth and probably raises even more questions about the whole subject! Thank you!
Thank you so much for this! I've even asked for this in the comments of your newer videos. I have BPD and see soooo much of myself in covert narcissism. However, I'm never "evil", or porpusefully hurting people. Other than that, I see basically all of the symtoms in myself. Been wanting to know more about the corrolation between the two. Thank you dr!
Very interesting that someone presenting as a grandiose narcissist might at other times present as a vulnerable narcissist, given that a vulnerable narcissist mat move back and forth between the two. This matches what I’ve seen.
Hi, Dr. Grande! Thanks for discussing this interesting topic. Your channel is quite deservedly gathering more and more audience, and it has been gratifying to see you as an expert guest on other channels. Considering the bewildering multitude of phenotypes of narcissistic and-to some extent-of borderline personality, I wonder if it is actually counterproductive to subdivide them into so many pigeon-holes. It seems more plausible that most people with such characters kind of "drift" around those phenotypes, e.g., residing for a while closer to a vulnerable narcissist type after a perceived slight, only to recompose themselves as a grandiose narcissist after receiving an external signal of their specialness. Perhaps what matters from the clinical perspective (i.e. in terms of how you would structure therapeutic approach) is how "thick-skinned", vs. how emotionally labile, a Cluster B type person is. And another relevant factor would be the self- and other-destructiveness. My main point is that there seems to be unnecessarily many theoretical sub-types of narcissists and borderlines, and such a detailed classification seems to obscure how time- and circumstance-dependent the actual presentation of such personalities can be.
You’re right but the classifications are important for these slight differences. As borderline, pathological narcissism & NPD specific traits vary quite much even independently. Each cluster B individual is a different combination of these traits, to appreciate/acknowledge them we have the classification which may make treatment difficult if you’re putting people into boxes but that’s why many are treated by their specific symptoms but classification help us understand their other tendencies & proneness under stress, change of circumstances or what can they aggravate into, so what triggers to avoid & what to do when these triggers are inevitable, are stressors. That’s just one example.
Thank you so much for this explanation! I've had a lot of therapist tell me that narcissism goes under borderline (which my mother had) but never really explained it very well.
This is a great video! Thank you for explaining that Narcissicm can move back and forth from Grandiose to Vulnerable and the crossover with BPD. My recent ex is both, and very disturbing to even communicate with! Taking him out of my life and detaching completely is my answer from your videos! It is too frightening for me and my family!! The pathological symptoms being acted out of revenge, threats, warnings, low self esteem are too disturbing! Thank you Dr Grande for supporting your online community of followers and be such a highly educated professional! You break everything down for us scientifically and medically applying to real world examples!!
So glad to have found this video explaining the comorbidity betwene bpd and pathological narcissism. I experienced a relationship with someone who i believe was undiagnosed with bpd but exhibited lots of rhe vulnerable narcissist traits and it really left me confused. Im learning about individuals like this so thank you for this video
Question for Dr.Grande.." Do u think it's ok for ppl to diagnose others after learning about disorders from watching your show?" Because the trend now is calling people NPD, it's all over RUclips, television, magazines etc. And of course, everyone who's divorced, or had a bad break up, or had problems with parents, their boss, their ex friend etc. I'm starting to roll my eyes back, because it's used ad nauseam !! It seems that if anyone that a person doesn't get along with is labelled as NPD. Personally I know a person (NO, not me) who was diagnosed with this, but if every second person is labelled with it, then what would be a reason for him to seek treatment? I find it baffling how over used this condition is....and I remember back in the 90's, everyone was using the term sociopath, to describe anyone they did not like, as well. What do you think Dr Grande? PS..I just went through the comments, and sure enough, people are diagnosing ppl they don't get along with, It actually feels raunchy when I read that....the person doesn't know that they are being discussed in this comment section. How ethical is that??
Vulnerable narcissism seems to be more in line with dysthymic disorder and mild cluster B traits. I think people are trying to define characteristics that just can't be put into a specific Dx. Clinical settings are a mixture of traits and behaviors, thus it's not practical to label people with these random personality "disorders". Narcissism is found in many cultures, mental illnesses, and social circles. It's not always an aberrant predatory trait.
@@MR-tr2fz well kids cannot get away and many of us had this shit traits as a parent or even two and it affected us for life. Trying to make sense of it all and the concept of vulnerable/covert narcisism is spot on and helping people take back their stolen lives!
You illuminated the behaviours of my former spouse that hadn't been explained by her diagnosis of BPD alone which has helped, years later now, see I wasn't imaging things. Thank you for that freeing.
i do believe some individuals with bpd may have developed traits of npd somewhere along the line in order to cope with rejection distress and triggers of abandonment. its not hard to understand why when you think about how most people use self comparison and devaluation of others in order to cope with rejection + attachment trauma. the first thing a lot of people do after a breakup is talk shit about their ex significant other in order to make themselves feel better, saying it was "their loss, not mine"
THAT'S HER! That, is my girlfriend... Well, as of two weeks ago she's now my exgirlfriend. But THAT is her, to a T. Thank you Dr. Grande for all the work you've done making these videos. You've helped cast a light into what's been a dark corner in my life for years... And knowing is half the battle! ROCK ON!
I didn't like some of your videos discussing public people and got a bad impression on dr grande but this videos about vulnerable narcissism are spot on! Very insightful and helpful. It shines some light on this twisted thing that didn't seem to fit well in npd or bpd either. Thank you dr grande. Can you please give us some resourses to read to find out more?
It's really interesting to hear you talk about this model. I think something that could help an anecdotal, unqualified idea as to whether a person's narcissism swings more toward NPD or BPD is, does their behaviour give-off the delusion of 'you need me' or does it yell 'I need you'.
I worked with a borderline personality disorder woman. She drove us all nuts with her delusions of persecution and her inability to follow instruction well or take constructive criticism. Every day she threw a pity party for herself. She didn't last long on the job. She got fired after 4 months.
My son has grandiose narcissism and vulnerable narcissism! Ok I listened twice and he has all three!! He thinks nothing is wrong with him! Or at least portrays it and deflects it on me! He is soon to be 25 and his Dad has this too! I'm not claiming to be perfect btw!
I knew a covert narcissistic person who would be rude to people. And thought everyone was arrogant. Because they felt people were not nice to them. And never treated the person with the respect the person wanted. But once that person realized. That people are too interested in themselves. It helped the person see it's not all about them. The person had to realise you keep it polite with you are not friends with. And mind your own business. And dont overshare or try and be the centre of attention. Politeness and gratitude would help people be more respectful and sympathetic and humble. To avoid having narcissistic tendencies. It all comes back to respect . You respect people's feelings. Even narcissistic people get criticised for being rude.
Your knowledge and expertise along with your amazing presentation of personality disorders is incredibly helpful to many. I was wondering if you would make more of these videos in the future? Your pop culture case study analysis videos are excellent as well but not nearly as educational and helpful as these direct psychological exploration videos. We need some more Dr. Grande clinical videos!
I don’t know where I read this but it was by a professional saying that BPD could be the stage a child goes prior to falling into NPD, where they get stuck and there is no way to come back from. Don’t quote me on this but I think it’s an interesting theory.
Interesting! Hadn't looked at it this way before. Honestly, after watching a whole bunch of videos about a few different diagnoses and their comorbid features, it is getting to the point where I think the DSM is a bunch of nonsense! There seem to be very few people who truly fit into a particular diagnosis, and everyone else could be diagnosed with at least 5 different things. I have heard of a "Waif Borderline" and wonder how to differentiate that from a vulnerable narcissist? It is all getting a bit muddy in my brain, now! As for the angry outbursts and other features related to ego disturbance, this overlaps due to the narcissistic wounding which seems present in so many diagnoses! Seems the more I learn and the longer I'm a clinician, the more confusing it gets, not less. Honestly, I think there is a certain "feel" that each diagnosis has, and one gets used to that and can read the clients and see it clearly, but to actually take a checklist with these feature and base the diagnosis on those, it seems nearly impossible.
thank you for stateing what you did at the end ...... i have had a lot of docs miss assess my symtopms as vulnerable narssasisum mainly cuz of how study made male borderlines more closely related to the vulnerable narssasisum so much so that i think docs can forget that a male bordeleine with major depressive disorder and petulant borderline actions can look like vulnerable narssaiaum expecully with added avodence issues they can come off as manipulation rather then protection ..... taken me years to get a better understanding of what was going on and the shame i got a treatment i got when therapist decided to belive i was a narsasit without even doing any testing ..... my current theprist actually did a narssasiic spectrum test and though i laned 3 in 3 of the 4 catagorys i only landed 1 in the 4th one and form the perspective i don't land on the narssasitic spectrum cuz you have to have 3 or more in all 4 catagorys to be on the spectrum and that wamed my heart as this allowed my borderline avodent issues to alow me to keep in therapy as we know avodents will avoid rejection and that's my normal go to unless I'm overly attached to someone then my desprate need to protect myself form abandonment mixed with the rejection makes me rage hard and try to down my needs to make sure the other person feels loved enough ..... its crazy how much all of these can become so mixed when you look at them impericaly and really this video makes me realize why someny docs were so admit i was a vulnerable narssait at my worse ....... so much so i almost started to belive i was a narssasitic borderline ..... docs deff need to be careful and be dilagent and not bias in there opinions of narssasisum and males
I really appreciate these earlier videos more specifically focused on clinical psychology. I've become less enthusiastic about the newer content that often seems to be veering towards tabloid stories tonally, not even mentioning "O. C. E, A. N" very often. I understand there's more money in the clickbait tone than in the more academic toned videos, but that doesn't stop me from being a little disappointed.
Thank you for this clear explanations. Now I realise that have suffered a relation over one year with a person with all BDP traits except suicidal but a great NPD, very manipulative and aggressive. It was impossible to help them and convince to take any therapy and blaming other for his problems.
Adding to my previous comment, for all those who suspect they may have been raised by such a mother: THERE IS HOPE 😊, I sought counseling, with three separate therapists assuring me that I did not inherit these traits nor did I become like her. Therapy is excellent for weeding out any unhealthy learned behaviors, so that you can go on to enjoy your life with the capacity to have healthy relationships with others. Thank God above for good therapists. 👍
All cardiologists know their way around a human heart, unfortunately the same cannot be said of therapists. And bad therapy can do serious harm and retraumatize. I'm very happy for you for getting well! 🍀👍
@@evadebruijn , thank you, and I agree with what you said. All therapists are not created equally, and it is important to find one experienced in dealing with narcissistic abuse.
I was raised by a diagnosed borderline woman. It was hell. My diagnosed ex narc made me feel the same way and used the same brutal methods. It was a sign for me that something was very wrong with him. Glad he got diagnosed so i knew for sure and left the same day.
Same. That is why i knew with the ex something was very wrong. Mother was diagnosed borderline and ex diagnosed narc. I also left that day. Evil people.
Been dealing with a borderline and couldn't explain it all..then covert narcissism hit me as a comorbidity so I googled it and sure enough I'm here...the victim mentality was strong for someone who behaves the way they do..covert and bpd.
I believe I have bpd and vulnerable narcissism. Not sure where to seek help from as my partner isn’t very supportive and often blames my mental health on all of our problems.
I believe my ex-wife was BPD with vulnerable narcissistic traits. Her mother abandoned her when she was only one year old by leaving her to be raised with her christian scientist grandmother. Her father was homosexual or I guess bi-sexual but preferred males, and he was also schizophrenic and spent episodes in a mental institution. She only found out her grandmother was not her mother when she was about 7 years old after kids at school were taunting her that she didn't have a mother, and she found out her father was gay when she about 15 years old. On top of that, the mother that abandoned her went to America and had a string of marriages with wealthy men, but she was also had a volatile personality. My ex was psychologically, emotionally and physically abusive to me. After tolerating her abuse for 10 years, I tried to leave her many times, but she'd always cry and beg me to stay, and I'd cave in. It was the typical abused returning to the abuser cycle. Eventually she had an extramarital affair with a younger man and then she commandeered our house by using the law because she had custody of our children. I lost almost everything because of this horrible callous woman, and to this day I still suffer from depression, even though it was over 20 years ago.
I exhibit traits of both grandiose narcissism and bpd (I'm a woman in my early 20s), but I don't fully meet the criteria for either disorder, which kind of sucks, because without a concise diagnosis you can't do any research on your own or read other people's experiences with their mental illness.
My BPD abusive husband presents with vulnerable narcissistic symptoms. Thank you for making this video. I'm trying to figure it all out and this was helpful. But, at the end of the day, we are separated and I have realised that I don't want to go back. 😢
Just like me :P If a person is not aware of this trauma it is a hell for others. If they do however, it helps alot. There is easily this Black and White thinking of self. Either am i good or Either am i bad. If i think i am a bad person, this explodes many of the symptoms. One should reassure self of not being evil bc of this. It is a trauma responses. Take care.
I've been in the mental health system for over 20 years, since age 18. I think that psychologists should create a new classification called "virginitis". I think a lot of confusion would be cleared up if they just named it what it is.
Hi Dr. Grande, my daughter has been diagnosed with Emerging Borderline Personality Disorder. I also recognise a lot of the vulnerable narcissistic traits in her. I don’t think you have done any videos on children with EBPD. I struggle with her behaviour. I Have no history of mental illness myself but I beat myself up a lot for her mental illness. I can’t put it down to one specific thing maybe a few different things but she had problems first year of life. Thank you for your videos I find them very helpful when trying to understand my daughter.
It never occurred to me that someone could have bpd and be a covert narcissist before . But I think I know a lot of those in my family. That’s crazy! 🤡
One difference I noticed wich distinguished between borderline and vulnerable very clearly was the fact, that the borderline has many clear moments in wich they see what is going wrong, or that they are wrong somehow. The vulnerable narcissist is NEVER wrong, always just the others or the circumstances.
Oh they're both self aware of their behaviors, only difference is the narcissist simply doesn't care.
What are the other main differences?
Dr. Ramani concurs. She states the absence of shame/remorse clearly distinguishes the NPD.
However, she seems to speak mainly of grandiose NPD. Does the covert NPD show remorse? Occasionally? Particularly if they are also BPD? If so, it's even harder to distinguish convert NPD and borderlines.
I know a NPD-BPD who seemed sincerely remorseful on rare occasion, but absolutely refused to admit wrong under any and all circumstances. Guilt feelings, zero accountability. Weird.
Agree. The absence of guilt/shame marks the narcissist apart from the BPD. This absence is a marker of absence of conscience, which leads on down the line to psychopathy.
@@troynunley8161yes, what you say is what I have run into.
There's so much overlap between so many of these conditions.
in the end, i don t get why it really matters. They are just big assholes with a brain arrested at the age of 6. They have unresolved trauma but they won't do shit to fix themselves. That's it.
@@williamblake5289 lol who hurt you? this comment doesnt acknowledge the complexity and nuance of personality disorders. you do realize if these people could just fix everything with ease that 100% of them would? its almost like you didnt even watch th video
@@williamblake5289 Except some of us actually DO do shit to fix ourselves. Quite a lot of us do. Yet our efforts are seldom recognized by people like you who are blessed to be mentally stable.
The degree of introspection/maturity it takes to even accept that there's something inherently wrong with us-- not to mention the painful blow it takes to what little self esteem we have-- is not appreciated enough.
Altering and monitoring our behavior 24/7 just to function in society. Being proud because we went months without destroying a relationship, AND we managed to trick everyone into thinking we're neurotypical. Then we let our guard down for one second, and we slip. Suddenly our friends are gone. Punishment for being a toxic menace to society.
All the work we did to accommodate ourselves for others, to empathize with those who think differently than we do, goes unacknowledged and unreciprocated. After all, no one owes us anything right? We are mentally ill, and therefore not able to be trusted, and most importantly, not worthy of love. The suicide rate for BPD makes sense now.
@@williamblake5289 its always easy to call people assholes but its much harder trying to understand why they pissed you off that much. Maybe that is the real question, why you never forgave them?
@@KingEdwardMD thats not how it works. Clearly you're trying to blame everything on others and not even looking once at yourself.
I have been diagnosed with BPD and feel a lot of the vulnerable traits relate to me . They relate most when I'm upset about something and a loved one won't validate me. I am aware of some of my triggers and don't want to blame them on the person, I'm desperately trying to change myself, but I feel they aren't trying to understand me and continuously trigger me. It makes me feel like they don't care if they hurt me , even if my triggers are my own fault .
I don't want to make others feel bad. I don't want to be an evil person. I want to be able to help myself when these traits come out. I feel like nobody knows how to communicate and I have no control over my emotions and the things I do. :(
As someone on the other side of BPD, I'm sure it's very hard for you, but wow...you seem very aware of yourself and your needs. Might you and your friend consider therapy. I'll bet it's hard for 99.2% of people to know how to work with it, including most Therapists. Keep going, healing is a SLOW process, but everything helps. I had a nervous breakdown and self isolated two year until I finally came out of it, working on my feelings the entire time.
@@kirstinstrand6292 I wrote this a while back, I was actually referring to a 2 year relationship I was in. I invited him to my therapy sessions many times but he never showed up. I have finished therapy after 9 months and have finally started to get my life back a little since breaking up with him. I have some new awesome friends. Im still finding triggers difficult...I'm trying to use DEAR when upset about something but find others still devalue my feelings sometimes.
I never know if I'm being a bad person or not it makes me feel so shit and completely confused on what's going on. I'm constantly trying to figure out if it's them or me 😒
@@battydragon3399 yeah that confusion. I know your pain.
@@battydragon3399 i can completely connect with you. Like totally.
I am in a relationship too... He doesn't seem to be interested in any of these things..
Anyway your story gave me hope that I can get better.
Lots of love and hugs.
@@aswathyp4238 All the best lovely, stay strong 💕
I'm diagnosed with Npd (covert) and Bpd. But I'm aware of my personality,I don't want to hurt people so I distance myself from society. Great video btw.
Can you genuinely love and have emotional empathy?
@@JoelBradley05 yes and no. my bpd is comorbid with npd,so i have selective or no empathy at all. I do love animals and children thats where my selective emphaty go. But most pwbpd can. They need love and they will love u.
Don’t you think distancing yourself from people is worse for you in the long run? I mean if you’re self aware and make a mistake people don’t necessarily have a problem as long as you accept it. Do you think having someone who can call you out on your bs but also keep it separate from your relationship help?
@@Clown-ns8xq my comment was from 2 years ago,so now after and during my therapy(im still going) I can say yes to your question. Now i can take criticism well, menage my emotions well, I can stop my negative thoughts,think and really regulate my actions. But i cant be in a romantic relationships. You see most bpd symptoms escalate when you are in a relationship. My npd is not really my problem. Im not an asshole i dont want to hurt people. I just dont care about them🤷🏽♀️
@@Anack-Su-Namunthank you for answering here after two years! I might have a bit of a similar case - bpd, vulnerable narcissism, paranoia. So I am really interested in what kind of therapy you have? DBT?
The vulnerable narcissist. I never knew it had a name. I always referred to these individuals as having a "martyr" complex. They are so tiresome to be around because "oh poor me look how I am afflicted by these horrible people that are more horrible than I."
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Why i felt you describing me
@@noone.7000 ugh me too but not so much since I changed jobs lol
Reminds me of my late grandmother.
@sardinitaway3315 I was going to say it sounds like autism
I was diagnosed ASD ( on the spectrum) and I have similar traits as you.
I had a parent who was a narcissist and a low functioning sociopath; he (1927-2017) was never diagnosed or treated. If he wasn't the center of attention he was simply not interested. If he told you something in "confidence" about a certain individual you would be certain that whatever he told you was a lie. Growing up he was physically abusive to all of his children; I have faint echoes of memories of him being physically abusive to mom (I would not want to testify in a court of law if he actually caused physical harm to mom my memory is just not strong enough for that.). After mom died in 2002 he slowly alienated all of his of children - he seemed to be most happy when he tried to set his children against each other of course growing up with this we could all see it as it was and never fell for it. The last 5 years of his life he spent alone in a hospital.
As the oldest how messed up is this? When any of my younger siblings got scared because of a nightmare they had or because of monsters under the bed instead of crawling into bed with their parents, they would crawl into bed with me; I can't remember all the times that I woke up to find one or even two of my brothers in my bed.
My brothers were all good hockey players so much so that during the 1970's and early 1980's they all had been actively scouted by a number of NHL scouts for the Blues, Bruins and the Maple Leaf's. You would have expected that a normal parent would have been proud of that - but of course not from the one we had. Or when one of my brothers got really sick with Crones disease and lost all of his large intestine and several feet of his small intestine and as a result he lost considerable weight and we were not certain if he was going to survive. When after almost a month in the hospital he was finally released mom wanted to stay home and look after one of her children and imagine being told by your husband that I need you to continue to work for me doing the books (mom never got paid) instead of staying home to look after one of their children. Fortunately our aunt Peggy was able to step in and we sent James to another province for 6 months to recover.
When I got a BSc in Clinical Psychology with a minor in Biochemistry, BSc & Masters in Computer Science and PhD in Computer Science & Engineering most parents would have been proud of their daughters achievement - mom was so very proud of me; from him no reaction at all. To be honest by that time in my life I never really expected one but ....
I made the conscience effort not refer to him as dad, father or any term of affection simply because he never earned it.
I refuse to address my father directly too.
Sounds like my mother! I feel your pain.
@ Vesta Freyja. You are simply amazing ❤️. I couldn't overcome my parental abuse, coupled with my good father's early death, and subsequent Narcissistic, Covert abuse Stepfather, Narc Mother. I'm still floundering... that's my reason for being here. To keep trying. I have many gifts and abilities I'd willingly share. I often do, but the personal price has been very high, relative to my survival and health, prosperity and happiness. Best wishes to all here.
I was a Canadian champion in athleticism on the first page of the local journal. But my mom asked me to stop athleticism. And them my brother repair his bike, and my mom says: "This is extraordinary." Took me 44 years to understand she is simply a monster. Does the DSM covers monsters yet? LOL :D
@@ThereIsAlwaysaWay2 it sure does.
Insightful videos. Having a Mother with what I believe to having Borderline Personality and understanding how that has affected me with relation to substance abuse and perhaps creating a covertbpd/vulnerable narcisim in my self has allowed me yo accept and try and change. It's hard though when nobody in your family wants to believe the trauma we have all at some point inflicted on eachother. Best thing is to change your life and find your own family .
Tbh if you were truly narcissistic you wouldn't be so self reflective and able to see a issue narcs run from their issues and faults they will do anything to avoid change and won't admit anything is wrong
I'm the only one of my siblings that needed to figure things out. We all were damaged in different ways. I finally after nearly a lifetime decided to divorce all my sibs. After doing so, it was peaceful not feeling the need to interact with them any longer. I think I was even able to figure out my parent's issues that resulted in such a dysfunctional family, sadly. So yes, sometimes it's best to move on. Now, there is very minimal contact; I just wish I hadn't waited so long.
Are you Ethiopian?
@@jdrush92yo Well said!
💯
Doc, I appreciate your explanations of things I've been dealing with all my life. I'm 54 and just now learning about my mind. It's hindered me all my life. You are definitely helping put things in perspective. I'm also seeking help. Gonna try to enjoy what's left. Thanks✌️
Excellent!!!
Same here
I know right? He literally seems to have a video that applies to every one of my problems.
And I have a very, very wide range of problems from addiction to survivors guilt to BPD to sexual assault survival to an eating disorder. I could go on but I won't take your time 😂
I go to counseling but I feel like the counselor is already biased because it's a reflection of my perception.
Not here. Completely unbiased
Hope you're alright two years after this comment, Cool Breeze. Started my journey a few years ago. Rocky terrain to healing, and also worth it.
How are u doing now??
BPD mom, sister, niece. I’m the “ horrible one”, or “ looked up to one”. Push/ pull. Loved and hated/ smeared to all. 😓
Bpd/covert narc mom, npd traits sister
I'm looked up to, selfish, manipulative, greedy...yet if I want to leave I'm abandoning people....
@@kanamexzeroxyuuki WOW! That's how my Mom describes me but I'm there for EVERYONE!🤦
Smear campaign is horrible
@@laureneannedeloggio7479 narcissists do the smear campaign, not borderline. I’ve BPD and before it was treated, I’d just bitch for hours about whoever it was to my mom
@@kanamexzeroxyuuki my exact life too! To them boundaries equal abandonment.
i’ve been watching hundreds of clinical psychologists covering bpd and i have to say dr. Grande’s is by far the most comprehensive and he breaks it down so well for a layman like myself, please continue spreading the knowledge and awareness of this disorder!
I've was feeling like my ex with bpd was displaying narcissistic traits, and this vulnerable narcissism appears to match up with that. I would like to learn more about it. Thank you!
My ex definitely had vulnerable Narcissism with his diagnosed BPD
Explains so much
same here
Research covert narcissist on RUclips tons of stuff
My older sister, who I think of as a covert narcissist with NPD, has some distinctly BPD traits. She often love people immediately, and then would suddenly shut it off. She has always been tormented by extreme jealousy, and intense fear of abandonment; but she treats everyone close to her terribly, grills us for information to use against us, shames and gaslights us, cultivates flying monkeys, and then she can't understand why we don't just love and adore her.
@@flash_flood_area i believe these people think the world is against them when in reality they are against the world
This video explains the narcissism I have seen in my sister with BPD. I see the narcissism as having had a protective function. It has probably kept her from the self harm seen with BPD. She constantly threatens but I think that narcissism clicks in. Along with ticking all the boxes for BPD she has that entitlement and envy seen with narcissism. And if you dont enable her or rescue her you are a bad person. She is pretty high functioning but the death of our mother seemed to cause decompensation. Our mother was the only person she had not alienated in our family. You know how faithful moms can be. As mature adults some of us have tried to pull her back into the fold. It almost seems she has to punish us by rejecting us. She doesn't know when she refuses our overtures we breath a sigh of relief. It would feel like more of a punishment if she became a part of our lives.
@@amandagloor Human beings are not that black and white
This is my sister. I don't know how much more I can try to help
goodness. this is exactly my sister - even down to our mother's death. i have long since decided that she needs to rescue herself -- that's the only way she'll start to improve her mind.
You breathe a sigh of relief? She probably refuses your efforts to reconnect with her because she knows how disingenuous you are. How disgusting to offer something to someone you truly do not want to give. If you're not interested in having her in your life, don't pretend that you are.
@@levity90couldn’t have said it better myself. Wow.
Dr Grande your videos are very concise without compromising accuracy, very interesting. For most lay people I'd say the difference may be best identified with the individual's empathy levels and how hard they work at becoming well and not hurting those around them. Genuine efforts can be hard to identify as they can be superficially mimicked. BPD alone may go to great lengths at their own personal detriment to avoid causing distress in others. When narcissism is co-morbid I suspect they view themselves as the only one who's suffering matters.
I feel like the core of BPD, fear of abandonment, should be looked for and paid attention to when trying to distinguish it from vulnerable narcissism.
Yes. But how? All narcssists are terrified of being rejected...
I have this diagnosis. It's a recent diagnosis.i have been single for 5 years even though I could have many relationships. I know I have nothing to offer after that initial 3 months of intense feelings. I get bored and feel a bit contemptuous as soon as someone says they love me. I'm not a horrible person so avoid sexual relationships entirely. Point is, we might be 'dangerous' people (although is dispute that) but I personally, am quite considerate of others feelings because I do feel guilty for ruining their lives. I took her years to recognize, but once I did I stopped hurting people.
@Penny Hutchins
Probably the most relatable words I've ever read.
@@pennyhutchins2548 You mean the BPD diagnosis? Your self awareness is amazing. I truly respect your consideration for others.
A young woman with BPD caused enormous trauma to my son, and to the rest of our immediate family; and they were only together as a couple for a few months. It's taken us several years to recover. That sounds crazy to say out loud, but it's true.
As vulnerable narcissist Lol i have fear of abandonment but i don’t use it to manipulate other people as the malignant narcissists do, my fear of abandonment manifest often as fear of intimacy and closeness .
Thank you for the unbiased info, I find psychology very interesting. Our brains are weird.
I always thought Borderline is created by NPD parents, or those closest. Not JUST this way, but I believe I had enough symptoms to be diagnosed borderline UNTIL I was able to remove myself from the toxic NPD people.
I think I'm BPD/Vulnerable. I check off all the criteria, but I try not to let it affect other people. And that makes me withdrawn, which leads to some suicidal ideation. I just have like deeply rooted abandonment issues that fuck with me when I get stressed out.
I feel the same, you're not alone
I appreciate the insight, Dr Grande! In my experience, the overlap between BPD and vulnerable NPD seems to go hand-in-hand. I’m no expert, but it’s my understanding that a grandiose NPD is not so emotionally volatile, “narc rage” is not as much of an issue and that they don’t expose their emotions to others with that kind of unstable meltdown. The vulnerable NPD seems so, incredibly unstable and threatened that the symptoms seem to much more strongly correlate to BPD. The insecure, unstable self is so fragile in them, as though they’re built on sand and the grandiose individual, on rock.
@Ryan C, absolutely! The Cluster B PDs seem to be on a spectrum, blending and melding a bit, rather than being strictly defined as one or another. There's no saying that one can't be a bit (or a lot) of multiple types or also that one is really more straight BPD or NPD. Comorbidity seems common, but also is not always the case. These are human-defined observations and it is what it is, regardless of what we name it.
@Ryan C, absolutely! The Cluster B PDs seem to be on a spectrum, blending and melding a bit, rather than being strictly defined as one or another. There's no saying that one can't be a bit (or a lot) of multiple types or also that one is really more straight BPD or NPD. Comorbidity seems common, but also is not always the case. These are human-defined observations and it is what it is, regardless of what we name it.
Holly The grandiose narcissist has better ego defenses than the vulnerable narcissistic.
If i'm not mistaken Vulnerable narcissists dont chase after relationships like bpd do . That's one big differentiator.
Kind of explains me...
An aspect of vulnerable narcissism is wishing for things like relationships, the perfect job, fame, riches, etc. and believing that they deserve them too. But deep down they can be terrified of not meeting those expectations, so they are very prone to giving up at the first sign of adversity, to not risk asking the object of their affection out, to produce art or writing but not risk showing it to people. All the while they are consumed with bitterness, they often see themselves as unrecognised geniuses.
They are particularly resentful towards successful people as they feel that they personally deserve what that successful person has. Often they will end up in a relationship with someone who has low self-esteem. They may victimise them psychologically, insult them and so forth, but they will at the same time be terrified of losing them. A particular manifestation of this is the parent who resents their children or partner because they "ruined their life" or "crushed their dreams".
In the end it's a coping strategy, if they never try then they wont be publicly exposed as frauds or as inferior. Not trying allows them to live in a fantasy world of the success they could have had if only the world would see what they believe is obvious.
That is true i was with one vulnerable narcisist he is not the fighter but how ever still they are dangerous and liar, they are not what they tell themselves. They will eat away ur mental health, sanity and physical health. There is no good to be near em in anyway just save ur self dont sacrifice ur self all ur effort will just go to a black hole
It never come back
@@ayuanggraini2436 So true!
@@barbaraladams5304 😊 I hope u get rid of him already girl
Yep, I am all about the self-validation now!
This is excellent; well organized, clear, user-student friendly. I really appreciate your videos. We need them to understand ourselves and the world around us. I am totally against the stigmatization of mind self-care.
Human beings are like a coin: on one side is physical care, on the other side is mind and spiritual care. For whatever reason, we have been shame-taught not to honor our mind care needs. This only leaves room for confusion and prolonged lack of total being health. Your videos are so good for those of us not content to live in the fog of confusion. Thank you for makine the time to share this knowledge with us.
Very informative and concise. I feel this has been the case with two of my ex boyfriends. Covertly manipulative, self-centered, inability to apologize, deflecting responsibility onto me, and a new one, a real kicker, intermittent reinforcement.
So many stories of such difficult times in the comments. I just want to wish everyone Peace of Mind. I have found more peace now I understand why my parents behaved as they did. It is definitely worth putting some time into developing understanding.
I dealt with someone for 20 years and it took me a long time to fully open my eyes and understand what I was dealing with. He had many NPD traits but also overlapping with BPD. This is the video I was looking for.
Nice work,it takes a special person to be a mental health pro.its a challenge just dealing with one person with some of these disorders let alone a constant stream.
Greetings from Germany
Wow !
Helping me understand my behavior patterns so much better.
Helping me so much easier to step aside and choose alternative adequate behaviors. Smooting the over identification with my personality constructions.
Ana it's great message , this tells me that character is formed and not born, thanks doctor for youre videos.
I’m so glad I listened to this. It was reassuring to hear that co-morbidity can exist. I have an ex who was diagnosed with NPD, but his relentless onslaught for 5 years after I rejected him seemed borderline. So I was very confused with what was happening and what I was dealing with. Because most things you read about NPD, they just do the character assassination, manipulate others to harass, project, sometimes do some legal abuse and vexatious litigation and discard people, they don’t seem to relentlessly stalk, harass, abuse, vandalise, break in, play the victim, threaten suicide etc too, which is what I was experiencing... the most severe behaviours of both personality disorders rolled into one. After hearing this my experience makes more sense. Thank you 🙏
I. Relieve this to be exactly the diagnosis of a loved one , at first I thought she was straight NPD, but a therapist pointed the factors of BPD with Narcissistic Traits , I see how this can be missed because both conditions can mirror each other !
Ok I figured out why I love your videos so much 💕
It's because when I'm in counseling, personal or marriage I feel like the counselor can't help but be biased. Their opinion is already a reflection of our situation (I think that's the point lol)
But I really love this completely unbiased analysis, not influenced by any personal information.
Thanks
these are great vids. thanks for helping me understand myself better. I am definitely the trail of destruction type BPD, and finally met a provider who had me try Lamotrigine and it has dramatically improved my life. I am now trying to grapple with what I now understand to be vulnerable narcissism- a trait I can see obviously in my mother as well. I guess apples don't fall far from trees.
Great explanation. Having BPD tendencies, i engaged in CBT for my anxiety and dysthymia. I kept telling my therapist that i see narcisistic traits in myself and that was spot on, but he was telling me that a narcissist wouldnt go into therapy or even admit that he has those tendencies being self aware of them. Reading about it i identified mostly with the vulnerable part of it. Dont know what my therapist's goal was by not seeing what i was seeing, or maybe i was hiding it unconsciously in relationship with him, and only spoke of it in relationship with others. Dont know. Doing therapy i think made those tendencies go "lower" but they still appear during very hard moments. This is a good video, explains much about what i discovered in myself. thank you so much
If someone has had emotional dysregulation and attachment issues (causing the traits of borderline personality disorder), it seems to me that over the years/decades - after many arguments and repeated rejections by other people - they would naturally feel inadequate and become more withdrawn to avoid further conflict. It also seems understandable that due to all the rejection by others and arguments with others year after year they would grow more and more self-critical, shame-filled, and low in self-esteem. It also makes sense to me they would be even more emotionally sensitive because when one has been rejected and attacked so many times for being too emotional and clingy, it becomes a reasonable expectation that this is what human beings do - they attack and criticize you. The conclusion, based on repeated evidence, is that probably one is being criticized/attacked yet again anytime one is spoken to about behavior or affect. Does this, therefore, characterize a comorbid disorder or a natural response set and group of beliefs which makes perfect sense based on everything they have seen and experienced? Labels can describe a list of behaviors, but I wish those in the field would more often discuss this in human terms. People are more able to change when they feel understood. And others are more understanding when we see why they are the way they are. When we read each other in human terms rather than slap others with labels.
Well put, this is something that has always puzzled me about my disordered ex. She is a 45 yr old high functioning assistant neurosurgeon with Crohn's disease who is a completely different person than the textbook BPD. She has always been independent, and basically lived alone even when she was married because her now deceased husband was a pro golfer always on the road. She did do the same idealization, devaluing, splitting, ghosting, gaslighting, discard cycle common with Borderlines, but she had much more extreme mood lability symptoms. Sudden crying, anger, laughing at weird times. Talked like a little girl at times "You do have love for me! You're my person!" Never clingy, and only needy when she was depressed and needed emotional support from me. She reminded me more of a cat. A don't come to me I'll come to you when I need you attitude. Constantly telling me she's not normal and very selfish and to not settle for her saying I deserved better. She would want me to go away and date other women, but call me right back to be with her a week later. She definitely exhibited some narcissistic traits. Once she told me in a serious conversation "I have been anointed by God to do what I do" and "my techs and nurses all worship at my feet" it would be funny if it was sarcasm, but she was serious! She also made all conversations redirect to herself. If I talked to her about my back injury she would say something like "oh that was not serious, my pain is much worse" She is also an admitted alcoholic and seemed to only be happy and emotionally open up more when drinking. The next day she would be cold and indifferent and often text how she did not feel good about opening up to me and being impulsive. So BPD or NPD? flip a coin I guess.
Thank you!! I wanted to rule out BPD for myself despite thinking I was unstable deep down, although I guess I am really it's masked by that nonchalantness. Vulnerable narcissism is a perfect fit not only from the test online, but also your description of it. Don't relate to overt npd, but still requite attention and have a bit of 'compensatory vanity' if you can call it that, although my issues are more in line with what you described. Basically no genuine self-worth at all so you 'compensate' for that with other things, makes sense after all the years of wondering why I'm so vulnerable, defensive, shame-ridden etc. I think vulnerables are like 'mild' bpd+avpd on an unconscious level.
I also don't relate to overt NPD in the sense that I don't really devalue others because of what they have or haven't done, and only do that in a temporary response to a slight or insult in some way, but don't really show it outwards.
You are very self-aware and insightful ! have you worked on yourself in counseling?
You may as well be add. If you are manupulative npd if not add. Or you can perform a chemical test, after taking mdma if you can still enjoy fiddeling your phone npd if not add.
@PrettyNeckslashes only anectodal evidence from my own life ( sociopathe, somatic narssisist and bpd) and confessions of diagnosed psycopathes can be found on internet.
@PrettyNeckslashes in my view there is two types of people in this world autistics and psycopathes. Both cocaine and mdma can be used to differentiate these two. If cocaine makes you sober you are autistic makes you manic you are psycopathe. If mdma makes you sober you are psycopathe, makes you love bug autistic. And difference between these two types of people is psycopathes have a lazy amygdala, causing incapacity to form emotional personal unconscious. By taking a lot of alcohol psycopathic spectrum try to experience normalcy.
Please nobody take medical advice from the guy who wants everyone to diagnose their mental illnesses via drug abuse. I'm no doctor, but I'm willing to take a stand and say that is horrible advice.
Thank you, Dr. Grande. You're slowly helping me understand myself. I know I'm borderline but I just dont understand myself even tho I'm aware of some behaviours. Thank you.
Thank you so much for this video, along side with all of your other videos, Dr Grande. Learning more about borderline and vulnerable narcissism has really helped me understand more about a relationship I was in several years ago, that traumatizes me even to this day with pretty major commitment issues as a consequence. I'll not ramble on for too long but the guy in question was 5 years older than me, thus 25 at the time, and I still always figured he was emotionally immature. Now, I'm starting to wonder if he was suffering from borderline and/or vulnerable narcissism (or traits thereof). Basically, it was always DRAMA. If there wasn't an argument, one would almost had to be invented. It was as if our relationships needed drama to be alive? The arguments were usually nonsensical and seemed silly, even at the time. He could get upset over the slightest little thing (criticism in particular). There was something very passively agressively over his style because he would either just not answer me or he would have this sulky tone. Once when I joked or "teased" him at the start of our relationship (like women sometimes do, often pertaining to sex) he started to cry unrelentlessly and told me I was mocking him. Once, he broke up with me and then called me after four-five days and threatened me that he would slash his throat if I didn't take him back. (That's not the only time he threatened with suicide, once he called me from a bridge.) He told me that he loved me almost instantly (which was creepy as hell but I was young and didn't have the guts to back off). Some things that he did and said I cannot write here. They are just too painful and hurtful. But it included some violence and abuse (psychologically most of the time but not exclusively).
Aside from his EXTREME sensitivity (intense emotions), impulsivity and need for drama, what might stand out the most was his extreme idealization of me. I was just soooo perfect, so beautiful and lovely in every single way. I know Dr Grande spoke about this in another video, about how vulnerable narcissists nestle themselves into your life through intense admiration and flattery. I think what was really interesting about this particular person is that he would even say that he needed me, that he couldn't survive without me, and thus forcing me into a caretaking role where I could only live through him and my whole purpose in life was to please him and make him happy. As soon as that relationship was over, I could finally feel free. Like a bird that had been let out of her cage. Unfortunately, it's a bird that is now scarred and scared. But viewing these videos does help me grasp not only WHAT actually happened but also WHY and HOW, thereby aiding my healing process. I now know what - and who - to avoid. For that, I am ever grateful to you, Dr Grande!
I left a partner similar to yours. It was an emtional rollercoaster and I felt that I had to be a caretaker as well. He needed a lot of structure in his life and I kept having to tell him what to do and also follow up on him to make sure he had done that. I didn't mind the caretaking role so much, but it was the constant mood swings and how he could erupt at the smallest of things which led me to leave the relationship. I felt I had a 6ft toddler who could be extremely loving and sweet, yet throw the worst (emotionally abusive, with some shoving, banging and heaps of yelling) tantrum just an hour later. Watching Dr Todd Grande's and Dr Daniel Fox's videos have given me more insight, and with that, some sense of closure. I do wonder though - is it even possible to treat someone who has BDP and vulnerable narcissism co-morbidities?
@@gjln5424 That sounds like my husband :( I'm so frustrated and exhausted by all of it.
Sounds like histrionic traits. But cluster B personality disorders overlap so much it's just really eye opening. It's like the psychiatrists are directly talking about my ex.
Did you love him or still do?
Wow, those associated characteristics :/ Concealing faults (due to shame) = the single greatest problem with my past relationship! #mindblown
💕
As someone who was told I probably have EUPD I’ve been doing lots of reading to try and understand myself and my reactions better. After reading, I do also recognise alot of The behaviour and tought patterns in covert narcissism. I must say, I have never wanted to conflict pain on others. I do my best to not hurt anyone. I often feel like I’m trapped, like there is this strong forces in me that I have no control over. I dont want to be like this, yet, I feel like this is all I am. Been in therapy on and off since 7-8 years old. Started my current therapy in december 2021, and all I want is to get to a more healthy stable place mentally.
What is EUPD?
THANK YOU. Finally it’s making sense how this all links together!
I'm 27 male (sister took over my youtube) lol. I'd just like say I've been watching these videos for just over a month now and i am alot smarter and have alot more insight thank you so much for helping me and everyone else 🙏😊
Covert NPD + Borderline = Ex husband of 4 years.
Scared and confused because of his behavior.
Thank you! 💜💚💛
You know, I never leave RUclips comments but I have to say you really are methodical and knowledgeable in your field, especially in regards to Narcissism and BPD. And thank you for including Mother/Daughter video’s on these topics. I’m in therapy because of my mother’s severe narcissism and BPD but in the meantime, listening to you helps me understand the confusion/pain I have been living under for 30 years. Thanks, Dr.Grande.
Great video! I always suspected my mother to be a vulnerable narcissist, but after watching this video, I’m wondering whether she is borderline with pathological vulnerable narcissism. I will never know for sure as she would NEVER agree to counseling. I guess it doesn’t really matter at this point, as I have gone low-contact with consistent boundaries put in place to minimize the damage she is capable of. Thank you, Dr. Grande 😊
A narcissist won't go to a therapist, they literally need to have a crisis, or a come to Jesus moment to shake them up enough to want to get help. I'm glad you have set healthy boundaries because a narcissist is like a hurricane and you are the exposed little house on the beach if you don't distance yourself.
Thanks, that was one of the more helpful videos I seen in awhile.
Thank you for explaining this - my mother is a borderline and a vulnerable.
You're welcome!
me too she is
If you don’t mind my asking, did you develop/pick up any of her traits? I think I have BPD and I pray my daughter doesn’t develop this torturous disorder...
@@amandastein6247 Not that I'm aware of. I certainly struggle with medical depression, but not BPD. that I know of.
I feel your pain! My dad RVN and mom MDN and close in age sibling (egad)
All difficult-erratic-raging ranting 3!!’
Dr Grande, your channel is jam packed full of learning goodness 😃
Your dedication + efforts are so very appreciated!!
That is such a kind thing to say - thank you!
The more I learn about vulnerable narcissism, the more I think "that's me!". I used to suspect having BPD but man... Now idk I'm just lost. I wish some psychiatrist just told me "that's what you have and that's what we're gonna do about it!" cause improving on your own is like, "where do I start?".
Thank you! My ex was diagnosed with BPD in her late teens. Having lived with her during isolation I realized she has many covert NPD traits. The only thing she was missing was the anger. When I talked about it with her she said "I can't be because I don't have uncontrollable anger"
If she doesn’t have uncontrollable anger, how could she have any personality disorder?
I already sensed that the overlap between BPD and vulnerable narcissism was mostly gender-based, especially as I've met more women with BPD who have empathy/display remorse when having episodes while some men diagnosed with BPD whom I meet tend to display more internal shame regarding their self-worth as men rather than their episodes affecting others. I've also seen men shift between extremes of shame and depression and grandiose sense of self-importance. With women, this isn't always the case, it's more of splitting on other people.
woww... to a tee
Wow! This answers so many questions. I used to think that my ex`s BPD was either probably misdiagnosed, or that it was a made up lie in order for her to get her way with me. Considering how many characteristics of both BPD and NPD she seemed to have i was very confused. I was looking for data to support and explain the co-occurence of BPD and NPD, and this video answered most of my questions. Also, the concept of pathological narcissism adds more depth and probably raises even more questions about the whole subject! Thank you!
Thank you so much for this! I've even asked for this in the comments of your newer videos. I have BPD and see soooo much of myself in covert narcissism. However, I'm never "evil", or porpusefully hurting people. Other than that, I see basically all of the symtoms in myself. Been wanting to know more about the corrolation between the two. Thank you dr!
08:40 this is what i allways said - grandious and vulnerable are 2 modi operandi of narcissist like a turtle with head out or head hidden
Excellent explanation on BPD and Narcissism!👌🏼
Thank you Dr. Grande!❤️
Very interesting that someone presenting as a grandiose narcissist might at other times present as a vulnerable narcissist, given that a vulnerable narcissist mat move back and forth between the two. This matches what I’ve seen.
Hi, Dr. Grande! Thanks for discussing this interesting topic. Your channel is quite deservedly gathering more and more audience, and it has been gratifying to see you as an expert guest on other channels.
Considering the bewildering multitude of phenotypes of narcissistic and-to some extent-of borderline personality, I wonder if it is actually counterproductive to subdivide them into so many pigeon-holes. It seems more plausible that most people with such characters kind of "drift" around those phenotypes, e.g., residing for a while closer to a vulnerable narcissist type after a perceived slight, only to recompose themselves as a grandiose narcissist after receiving an external signal of their specialness. Perhaps what matters from the clinical perspective (i.e. in terms of how you would structure therapeutic approach) is how "thick-skinned", vs. how emotionally labile, a Cluster B type person is. And another relevant factor would be the self- and other-destructiveness. My main point is that there seems to be unnecessarily many theoretical sub-types of narcissists and borderlines, and such a detailed classification seems to obscure how time- and circumstance-dependent the actual presentation of such personalities can be.
You make great points. Sometimes in our efforts to classify everything, we forget they may actually belong to a unitary construct that is volatile.
You’re right but the classifications are important for these slight differences. As borderline, pathological narcissism & NPD specific traits vary quite much even independently. Each cluster B individual is a different combination of these traits, to appreciate/acknowledge them we have the classification which may make treatment difficult if you’re putting people into boxes but that’s why many are treated by their specific symptoms but classification help us understand their other tendencies & proneness under stress, change of circumstances or what can they aggravate into, so what triggers to avoid & what to do when these triggers are inevitable, are stressors. That’s just one example.
@Dr. Todd Grande thanks for validating that...I think it makes sense too, but what do I know?
Been following you for several years ,since 2022. Nice to see older videos on general population.
Thank you so much for this explanation! I've had a lot of therapist tell me that narcissism goes under borderline (which my mother had) but never really explained it very well.
This is a great video! Thank you for explaining that Narcissicm can move back and forth from Grandiose to Vulnerable and the crossover with BPD. My recent ex is both, and very disturbing to even communicate with! Taking him out of my life and detaching completely is my answer from your videos! It is too frightening for me and my family!! The pathological symptoms being acted out of revenge, threats, warnings, low self esteem are too disturbing!
Thank you Dr Grande for supporting your online community of followers and be such a highly educated professional! You break everything down for us scientifically and medically applying to real world examples!!
So glad to have found this video explaining the comorbidity betwene bpd and pathological narcissism. I experienced a relationship with someone who i believe was undiagnosed with bpd but exhibited lots of rhe vulnerable narcissist traits and it really left me confused. Im learning about individuals like this so thank you for this video
Question for Dr.Grande.." Do u think it's ok for ppl to diagnose others after learning about disorders from watching your show?" Because the trend now is calling people NPD, it's all over RUclips, television, magazines etc. And of course, everyone who's divorced, or had a bad break up, or had problems with parents, their boss, their ex friend etc. I'm starting to roll my eyes back, because it's used ad nauseam !! It seems that if anyone that a person doesn't get along with is labelled as NPD. Personally I know a person (NO, not me) who was diagnosed with this, but if every second person is labelled with it, then what would be a reason for him to seek treatment? I find it baffling how over used this condition is....and I remember back in the 90's, everyone was using the term sociopath, to describe anyone they did not like, as well. What do you think Dr Grande? PS..I just went through the comments, and sure enough, people are diagnosing ppl they don't get along with, It actually feels raunchy when I read that....the person doesn't know that they are being discussed in this comment section. How ethical is that??
This was one of your most clear videos. Thanks.
There was so much information in this video that I had to watch it twice!
Vulnerable narcissism seems to be more in line with dysthymic disorder and mild cluster B traits. I think people are trying to define characteristics that just can't be put into a specific Dx. Clinical settings are a mixture of traits and behaviors, thus it's not practical to label people with these random personality "disorders". Narcissism is found in many cultures, mental illnesses, and social circles. It's not always an aberrant predatory trait.
Exactly
@@MR-tr2fz well kids cannot get away and many of us had this shit traits as a parent or even two and it affected us for life. Trying to make sense of it all and the concept of vulnerable/covert narcisism is spot on and helping people take back their stolen lives!
Fcreceptor I agree do we need more ffing labels that don’t help at all
You illuminated the behaviours of my former spouse that hadn't been explained by her diagnosis of BPD alone which has helped, years later now, see I wasn't imaging things. Thank you for that freeing.
Please i love when you say "hello this is Doctor Grande"😭💗
i do believe some individuals with bpd may have developed traits of npd somewhere along the line in order to cope with rejection distress and triggers of abandonment. its not hard to understand why when you think about how most people use self comparison and devaluation of others in order to cope with rejection + attachment trauma. the first thing a lot of people do after a breakup is talk shit about their ex significant other in order to make themselves feel better, saying it was "their loss, not mine"
THAT'S HER! That, is my girlfriend... Well, as of two weeks ago she's now my exgirlfriend. But THAT is her, to a T. Thank you Dr. Grande for all the work you've done making these videos. You've helped cast a light into what's been a dark corner in my life for years... And knowing is half the battle! ROCK ON!
Thankyou for sharing Dr Grande. Very interesting & informative. There seems to be a lot to learn.
That´s the one I wanted! lol Thank you, Dr. Grande. You are brilliant!!
You are quite welcome!
Your content has helped me realize my passion for psychology. Thank you Dr. Todd Grande.
Another outstanding video to recommend to my clients (and colleagues). Thank you, Dr Grande!
I have to say this narcissism and covert narcissism is extremely new to me. But he's the best one I've heard by fire on any of this
I didn't like some of your videos discussing public people and got a bad impression on dr grande but this videos about vulnerable narcissism are spot on! Very insightful and helpful. It shines some light on this twisted thing that didn't seem to fit well in npd or bpd either. Thank you dr grande. Can you please give us some resourses to read to find out more?
Thank you for your valuable content. Helpful for people on both sides of this disorder.
It's really interesting to hear you talk about this model. I think something that could help an anecdotal, unqualified idea as to whether a person's narcissism swings more toward NPD or BPD is, does their behaviour give-off the delusion of 'you need me' or does it yell 'I need you'.
I worked with a borderline personality disorder woman. She drove us all nuts with her delusions of persecution and her inability to follow instruction well or take constructive criticism. Every day she threw a pity party for herself. She didn't last long on the job. She got fired after 4 months.
I find your videos tremendously informative and helpful. Thank you for sharing!
My son has grandiose narcissism and vulnerable narcissism! Ok I listened twice and he has all three!! He thinks nothing is wrong with him! Or at least portrays it and deflects it on me! He is soon to be 25 and his Dad has this too! I'm not claiming to be perfect btw!
I knew a covert narcissistic person who would be rude to people. And thought everyone was arrogant. Because they felt people were not nice to them. And never treated the person with the respect the person wanted. But once that person realized. That people are too interested in themselves. It helped the person see it's not all about them. The person had to realise you keep it polite with you are not friends with. And mind your own business. And dont overshare or try and be the centre of attention. Politeness and gratitude would help people be more respectful and sympathetic and humble. To avoid having narcissistic tendencies. It all comes back to respect . You respect people's feelings. Even narcissistic people get criticised for being rude.
Welp today im binge watching Dr G's videos. So helpful! Thanks Dr G.
I do that a lot, too!
Your knowledge and expertise along with your amazing presentation of personality disorders is incredibly helpful to many. I was wondering if you would make more of these videos in the future? Your pop culture case study analysis videos are excellent as well but not nearly as educational and helpful as these direct psychological exploration videos.
We need some more Dr. Grande clinical videos!
I don’t know where I read this but it was by a professional saying that BPD could be the stage a child goes prior to falling into NPD, where they get stuck and there is no way to come back from. Don’t quote me on this but I think it’s an interesting theory.
This Dr. Sam Vaknin theory.
The Steve Jobs of mental health :).
Mary Pickford He actually kinda sounds like him in his dialect.
I hope not. Steve Jobs displayed many NPD behaviors.
@@351cleavland exactly. had a good laugh when I read that.
@@351cleavland no he didn't
Steve Jobs ruined himself. Bad comparison.
Interesting! Hadn't looked at it this way before. Honestly, after watching a whole bunch of videos about a few different diagnoses and their comorbid features, it is getting to the point where I think the DSM is a bunch of nonsense! There seem to be very few people who truly fit into a particular diagnosis, and everyone else could be diagnosed with at least 5 different things. I have heard of a "Waif Borderline" and wonder how to differentiate that from a vulnerable narcissist? It is all getting a bit muddy in my brain, now! As for the angry outbursts and other features related to ego disturbance, this overlaps due to the narcissistic wounding which seems present in so many diagnoses! Seems the more I learn and the longer I'm a clinician, the more confusing it gets, not less. Honestly, I think there is a certain "feel" that each diagnosis has, and one gets used to that and can read the clients and see it clearly, but to actually take a checklist with these feature and base the diagnosis on those, it seems nearly impossible.
thank you for stateing what you did at the end ...... i have had a lot of docs miss assess my symtopms as vulnerable narssasisum mainly cuz of how study made male borderlines more closely related to the vulnerable narssasisum so much so that i think docs can forget that a male bordeleine with major depressive disorder and petulant borderline actions can look like vulnerable narssaiaum expecully with added avodence issues they can come off as manipulation rather then protection ..... taken me years to get a better understanding of what was going on and the shame i got a treatment i got when therapist decided to belive i was a narsasit without even doing any testing ..... my current theprist actually did a narssasiic spectrum test and though i laned 3 in 3 of the 4 catagorys i only landed 1 in the 4th one and form the perspective i don't land on the narssasitic spectrum cuz you have to have 3 or more in all 4 catagorys to be on the spectrum and that wamed my heart as this allowed my borderline avodent issues to alow me to keep in therapy as we know avodents will avoid rejection and that's my normal go to unless I'm overly attached to someone then my desprate need to protect myself form abandonment mixed with the rejection makes me rage hard and try to down my needs to make sure the other person feels loved enough ..... its crazy how much all of these can become so mixed when you look at them impericaly and really this video makes me realize why someny docs were so admit i was a vulnerable narssait at my worse ....... so much so i almost started to belive i was a narssasitic borderline ..... docs deff need to be careful and be dilagent and not bias in there opinions of narssasisum and males
I really appreciate these earlier videos more specifically focused on clinical psychology. I've become less enthusiastic about the newer content that often seems to be veering towards tabloid stories tonally, not even mentioning "O. C. E, A. N" very often. I understand there's more money in the clickbait tone than in the more academic toned videos, but that doesn't stop me from being a little disappointed.
Thank you for this clear explanations. Now I realise that have suffered a relation over one year with a person with all BDP traits except suicidal but a great NPD, very manipulative and aggressive. It was impossible to help them and convince to take any therapy and blaming other for his problems.
Adding to my previous comment, for all those who suspect they may have been raised by such a mother: THERE IS HOPE 😊, I sought counseling, with three separate therapists assuring me that I did not inherit these traits nor did I become like her. Therapy is excellent for weeding out any unhealthy learned behaviors, so that you can go on to enjoy your life with the capacity to have healthy relationships with others. Thank God above for good therapists. 👍
All cardiologists know their way around a human heart, unfortunately the same cannot be said of therapists. And bad therapy can do serious harm and retraumatize.
I'm very happy for you for getting well! 🍀👍
@@evadebruijn , thank you, and I agree with what you said. All therapists are not created equally, and it is important to find one experienced in dealing with narcissistic abuse.
I was raised by a diagnosed borderline woman. It was hell. My diagnosed ex narc made me feel the same way and used the same brutal methods.
It was a sign for me that something was very wrong with him. Glad he got diagnosed so i knew for sure and left the same day.
Same here and it destroyed me
Same. That is why i knew with the ex something was very wrong. Mother was diagnosed borderline and ex diagnosed narc. I also left that day.
Evil people.
Been dealing with a borderline and couldn't explain it all..then covert narcissism hit me as a comorbidity so I googled it and sure enough I'm here...the victim mentality was strong for someone who behaves the way they do..covert and bpd.
I believe I have bpd and vulnerable narcissism. Not sure where to seek help from as my partner isn’t very supportive and often blames my mental health on all of our problems.
That does not sound like a healthy relationship at all :(
I believe my ex-wife was BPD with vulnerable narcissistic traits. Her mother abandoned her when she was only one year old by leaving her to be raised with her christian scientist grandmother. Her father was homosexual or I guess bi-sexual but preferred males, and he was also schizophrenic and spent episodes in a mental institution. She only found out her grandmother was not her mother when she was about 7 years old after kids at school were taunting her that she didn't have a mother, and she found out her father was gay when she about 15 years old. On top of that, the mother that abandoned her went to America and had a string of marriages with wealthy men, but she was also had a volatile personality. My ex was psychologically, emotionally and physically abusive to me. After tolerating her abuse for 10 years, I tried to leave her many times, but she'd always cry and beg me to stay, and I'd cave in. It was the typical abused returning to the abuser cycle. Eventually she had an extramarital affair with a younger man and then she commandeered our house by using the law because she had custody of our children. I lost almost everything because of this horrible callous woman, and to this day I still suffer from depression, even though it was over 20 years ago.
I exhibit traits of both grandiose narcissism and bpd (I'm a woman in my early 20s), but I don't fully meet the criteria for either disorder, which kind of sucks, because without a concise diagnosis you can't do any research on your own or read other people's experiences with their mental illness.
My BPD abusive husband presents with vulnerable narcissistic symptoms.
Thank you for making this video. I'm trying to figure it all out and this was helpful.
But, at the end of the day, we are separated and I have realised that I don't want to go back. 😢
Just like me :P
If a person is not aware of this trauma it is a hell for others. If they do however, it helps alot.
There is easily this Black and White thinking of self. Either am i good or Either am i bad. If i think i am a bad person, this explodes many of the symptoms. One should reassure self of not being evil bc of this. It is a trauma responses.
Take care.
DO NOT GO BACK! YOU ARE CAPABLE OF WITHSTANDING ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. PRAY, BELIEVE AND CARRY ON. DO NOT GO BACK!
I've been in the mental health system for over 20 years, since age 18. I think that psychologists should create a new classification called "virginitis". I think a lot of confusion would be cleared up if they just named it what it is.
It was very interesting, and I appreciate the video! Thank you!
Dr Grande, Would you consider doing a video explaining CPTSD? Also what are you’re thoughts on Somatic Processing of Emotions as therapy?
Wonderful! This describes my Father very well. He seems to have vulnerable narcissism and I thought he was a bit borderline at times. :/
Hi Dr. Grande, my daughter has been diagnosed with Emerging Borderline Personality Disorder. I also recognise a lot of the vulnerable narcissistic traits in her. I don’t think you have done any videos on children with EBPD. I struggle with her behaviour. I Have no history of mental illness myself but I beat myself up a lot for her mental illness. I can’t put it down to one specific thing maybe a few different things but she had problems first year of life. Thank you for your videos I find them very helpful when trying to understand my daughter.
This makes it all make sense. This is my husband to a t. Vulnerable narcissism was the missing link.
It never occurred to me that someone could have bpd and be a covert narcissist before . But I think I know a lot of those in my family. That’s crazy! 🤡