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The sniff test: would you tell a player of your game about the system? Sightlines to funnel you to interesting content? Of course you would, most players won't mind you helping them find the fun. Modifying purchase prices based on platform? Of course you wouldn't want them to know that.
There was a study done that said something like "people expect 70% odds to succeed 90% of the time". So in the XCOM example you wouldn't want to tell the player, bc many players would be upset that their odds are being boosted. But by not telling them, it'd feel more in line with their expectations
@@6ThreeSided9 I think that's a pure judgment call, because different players will feel differently - only you can guess whether the players you expect for your specific game would prefer that or not. Selling a hardcore survival game? Don't do that. Selling a light casual game or a game for kids? It's probably fine.
Why not modify purchase prices based on platform? If a 3rd party is taking a cut on some platforms but there is no 3rd party on others, why shouldn’t a developer be allowed to change purchase prices?
It's been a while since I was an Amazon Prime member but basically you say you don't want to renew, they nag you when your term is almost up, then they nag you all the time to be a member (just like they do to all their customers). It's not that bad.
Not a game, but with Adobe they actually charge you with an additional fee in order to cancel your subscription. Next level scumming which just encourages me to pirate.
Related concept. The FOMO tactics so many games do now have a backfire effect where once you *do* miss out you feel like you can't come back because you've already missed things. I haven't played a game I loved and was a whale for in six months because I missed out. Why should I come back to a game that I can't play properly?
I'm quite surprised you did talked about an important aspect in all of this: transparency. For exemple, IMO it's completely fine to match new online players to bots, but the most problem is that the player has often no way to find out. Being transparent on those design choices help make sure that it is a "designed experience" and not manipulation. Giving a way for designers to hint to a desired behavior from their customers, without impairing on their autonomy.
Players need ways of reporting and seeing reports. You are preaching to the choir as the devs in your audience are trying to better their game. The offenders are the corporate managers that tell their devs to implement the dark pattern. How can players unite and shove those games to the bottom of the search results?
Good game design, things to encourage players to play in a more fun way, and keeps them coming back Dark Patterns: systems and designs set up to deliberately drain the player’s bank account
This distinction kind makes sense, but misses the point that if the game with a good game desing has a subscription system, encouraging the players to keep coming back kinda makes that game want you too keep paying. Or if the game has some items/characeters that make the game a whole lot of fun, but are only avaible via purchase or grinding? Genshin Impact comes to my mind in this example, some characters are so fun to play, but only accessible via the gacha system.
I think we’re also missing a game design idea in the opposite direction. A horror/suspense game that uses dark patterns in-universe(with in game currency only, of course) to depict a hyper capitalist dystopia.
I know of a game made by a Japanese gacha game fan with an "IAP" screen that emulates spending money on content and keeps track of how much you've spent. The whole game is absolutely free.
Negative actions (actions that substract , deny or not do something) are usually colored red. Positive actions (actions that add, confirm or act on something) are usually colored green. When a game switches those colors around, I consider this a dark pattern, as the game is trying to get me to do/not do something I didn't want/wanted to do. More obvious example is Cancel-Confirm buttons (especially for purchases or subscriptions)
As an Experience Designer and Researcher, I agree Dark Patterns are a huge pain in the butt and I hate to see everyday people struggle with them just because companies don't want to lose revenue...
As someone that worked credit card customer service in the early 2000's, I couldn't even imagine how many chargebacks I had to initiate for customers against AOL for not letting people cancel their subscriptions. I understand the concept of retention and offering a deal to keep someone, but when someone refuses the offer then the account should be closed immediately.
I would personally define a dark pattern as "a design decision that makes it harder for the consumer to make their intended monetary decision" since it's using pre-existing design options for monetary gain like how lootboxes use random chance to keep players from easily paying for what they want.
That covers a major facet, for sure, but since I tend to play exclusively freebie games (on my phone, at least), yet still experience dark patterns, I'd say that time-wasting is also a big deal. Things that keep me playing the game past the point of enjoyment is certainly a big pattern I've noticed. Though, in fairness, it's *typically* tied to a mechanic I typically ignore, which is "hey you could pay to get past this annoying part" -- since I have zero intention (negative intention, really) of paying for games with recognizably bad design (yet still play them, in part because of my hobbyist interest in game design), the "get out of annoyance" mechanic affects my time and frustration level, not my monetary decisions.
Technically, just about any feature designed to relieve frustration is going to have the potential to be a dark pattern. A lot of it comes down to the side-effects, though. Does the feature cause the experience to be better, or simply longer? Is it a bandage-on-a-brain-tumor solution (ie. the root issue isn't even remotely addressed, just sidestepped), or does it actually add value? Because if the sole purpose is to keep the player playing (or paying!), it's definitely sketchy at best and almost certainly can be classified as a dark pattern.
That's a really hard one to answer. For example, the "pity" mechanic when pulling for characters in Genshin is really helpful to avoid players feeling like they've been scammed ... but it's also the only gacha game I've ever been willing to pay money into, and I can't honestly say the pity mechanic wasn't a big factor in that decision
@@ps2maneverything417 not by themselves. dark patterns come largely from the developer or publisher selling you a solution to a problem that they created. limited lives systems are often implemented as part of a dark pattern where the player is allowed to purchase more lives with real money (or with an in-game currency that can be purchased with real money). The classic megaman games also used limited lives, but as a way to prevent the player from getting stuck on a stage they didn't have the right tools to beat.
From my point of view dark patterns appear when you add a mechanic makes the game less enjoyable for the player, is unnecessary and/or is used to increase the profitability of the game in a way which fells unfair.
Genshin is surprisingly great because you can do 100% of the game for free. There aren’t really any meaningful p2w mechanics and the whole thing is single player. If there is a dark pattern it’s weeb lust.
@@themugwump33 Grinding excessively IS dark pattern, repeating same action several times because quicker way requires paying IS dark pattern. Dark pattern games site does wonders showing dark pattern mobile games. Which are 99% of dark pattern game market
Sounds like Season Pass style systems to me. Regardless of if they're free or not, they often encourage players to play waaay longer beyond what they'd comfortably play otherwise, which is bad because it encourages player burnout which neither players or devs want. And the ones that make those rewards unavailable post-season are the worst because it adds unnecessary pressure to players already engaging with that system and discourages new players because if they start a few seasons late they'll be a bunch of stuff they're never going to have a chance to get.
Baldur's gate 3 has an option that lets you decide whether you want the die to roll pseudo randomly, meaning that you'll likely never experience several consequtive bad rolls and never get a good roll. If you turn the option off, you're left with a completely random die that will most likely screw you up multiple times. I personally really like giving the users the option to pick whether they want the "realistic approach" or if they want an experience more tailored in our favour.
In case you need your day (and your faith in society in general) completely ruined, go watch the video called "Let's Go Whaling" about monetizing mobile games. Gotta love a presentation that kicks off with the presenter saying, "We're not going to discuss the morality of this topic"
Is that the one with the CEO whom the userbse nicknamed "Goldemort" after he super inflated the virtual economy by over 3000% (and users got banned for calling him by his real name) or is there another openly immoral whaling video?
There was a study done that said something like "people expect 70% odds to succeed 90% of the time". So in the XCOM example it might be more in-line with a player's expectations to boost the odds and hide it from them, rather than to leave the odds unchanged or tell them about changes
I know quite a few Fire Emblem games do this; where hit rates that show as some number above 50% are actually higher than displayed, and those shown as below 50% are lower than displayed
Yeah, it's better to lie to them and make them keep expecting this kind of thing? People are already bad enough at probabilities, let's not make them any worse, thanks
Like the above poster mentioned, some Fire Emblem games actually roll two RNGs and take the average of the two. So numbers fall more in the middle, making it harder to miss with that 90% chance of hitting. The random numbers "feel" more accurate.
I used to play RuneScape and that game has so many daily and weekly events that are so much more efficient (or even the only way to acquire a certain resource) than normal gameplay that you often see people struggling to play the game itself because they would spend all their game time doing chores
I think that the categorization of dark patterns isn't as difficult to categorize as you've made it out to be. The crux of the problem isn't the manipulation of the players - it's manipulation of the player *as consumer* to withold or skew the monetary elements of the game while functionally extorting money out of them. Game mechanics explicitly designed to have players make uninformed purchases or strongarm them into paying for something they don't want is decisively a dark pattern. It's basically the inverse of the fallacious argument that companies made once of "lootboxes being a form of artistic expression." It's true from a very technical sense, but it isn't held to that standard because it can be clearly seperated from art as instead a means of manipulative practice. In the same metric, there are many forms of player manipulation in video games, but dark patterns are decidedly and demonstrably malicious in their implementation. Of course it could be difficult to define and distinguish them legally, but I'd still argue it wouldn't be that difficult to find appropriate legal wording for.
I'm glad that I'm not the only person that took issue with how fuzzy the definition was, but I don't think you've got it right either. It feels intuitive to divide dark patterns into two, distinct categories, as you've done. My problem is that you don't seem concerned with non-monetary dark patterns, but - thinking about it - I'm inclined to believe that certain designs can be nefarious without a monetary component. A game that intentionally sets out to monopolize your time isn't really any better than one that paywalls your progress. In either case, you could make the easy, lazy argument that simple discipline and a little common sense could protect you from these predatory designs. At the end of the day, though, I think that if we're going to make judgements about predatory systems we've got to keep the definition open to all sorts of maligned manipulation. Games want to be played, but not at an unreasonable expense to the player, and that expense can be anything that the player values and - without being persuaded to act against their own self-interests - wouldn't part with in exchange for what you're offering.
@@WestlyLaFleur Now that is where I could see some fuzzy lines being drawn. But I'm not sure that's even something you'd even want to dabble in - at least from a legal angle. Arcades back in the day used to use excessive difficulty to punish players and get more coins out of them. RPGs still use padding to inflate playtime. These can both be annoying, but are difficulty and game length really something we want to police? Quantifying fun over artificial player engagement is something that seems like it's always going to be muddy and subjective, so I couldn't even begin to posit how one would approach that.
*Objective* is the key word here... If you have a strategy game with an option to DISMISS or DELETE a character from your roster, you gotta shove that option as far away as you can get it, and make the CANCEL button as clear as possible, so accidents don't happen... Cause believe it, my friend, they will happen
I suppose a good start to dealing with Dark Patterns would be to force gaming companies (especially those with Micro Transactions) to be transparent about their earnings. Shine a big enough spotlight on the sales floor and we can start to see what they are dragging their customers through.
I think the bot thing could be separated as its own mode rather than to put it secretly in matches. Like that, players who already played on another platform can directly go in the fun against real players.
How to make your lootbox system morally acceptable: Step1, right click on your lootbox system. Step 2, click "Delete". Congratulations, you have now converted your lootbox system to be morally acceptable ;)
I personally think that Dark Pattern laws should mostly be tied to monetary transactions, but I would definitely approve on limitations that prevent companies from forcing unreasonable playtime/hours. In a personal example, there's one game I regularly play that won't let you get your full daily rewards unless you log in after 11'o clock. That's not viable for children in middle school or under, and even for me in my twenties it feels like it makes me feel guilty if I go to bed before 12. Granted timezones may be a factor here (the in game clock is 2 hours behind me, so in game the last rewards unlock at 9'o clock) but my point stands
I think multi-pay models (subscription-based, microtransactions, multiple waves of paid DLC, etc) should be way more heavily scrutinized than single-pay models. Honestly, if you have a game that you pay for once, and it employs strategies to get you to keep on playing, that's... I mean, you're not spending any more money on it. Hell, even something like Animal Crossing does that, with weeds growing in your village and villagers commenting on your absence. Being able to take breaks from a game that does employ these strategies should be an accessibility feature, though.
The line goes on monetization. I see a lot of mobile game forcing you to use your free premium items in the tutorial priming you to buy some later, possible for real money. While if this had been a item you couldn't buy and was just part of the game like potions in Pokemon games, the situation is different.
YESSS! Oh man I hate this. "Here is a form of in-game currency (or key item) that pretty clearly you will have a strictly limited number of later on (if you don't pay us). In order to proceed with the game, you will now be forced to use a thousand of these in order to shortcut this irritating mechanic that would otherwise force you to wait ten minutes for the next thing to happen. No, we won't let you wait those ten minutes to save the item. Use the item. It is the only way to continue. USE THE ITEM."
Good video. Another dark pattern example is FOMO and easier to gain freemium currrency by paying rather than playing. This is especially prevalent in gacha games.
4:12 - What is important to remember this that "All Art is Manipulative". If people have a hard time understanding that, then at least think about that "All Game Design is Manipulative". Everything in a game is artificial and has been put there, for a specific reason, by a human person. Everything from the "feel" of a jump or walk animation, to the placement of objects, was put there for a reason.
This. In the middle of the video I was thinking something like "you don't actually have free will in games." Everything IS trying to get you to do something or feel something etc.
This was what I felt like after signing up for Hello Fresh. Hard to figure out what the supposed deal I was signing up for ended up being. Then tons of emails when I tried to quit and lots of hassel of trying to change a plan rather than quit.
I think in terms of XCom, it's not so much deceiving you on how good you are, but just making ACTUAL probability line up with PERCEIVED probability, because our brains are bad at that kind of math. Being good at XCom is about taking informed risks (in addition to lots of other stuff), and I think the devs just want to tip the game into the player feeling rewarded for making good decisions (even if the actual number-crunching says otherwise.) All that said, I've seen people STILL complain the RNG in XCom is unfair...
The easy and clear cut ones to start would be any prompt to spend money, divulge personal information, share on social media, and installing other apps/programs. I want those things restricted right now, before figuring out the trickier dark patterns like time/addiction/etc.
For me, the main criteria of 'Dark Pattern' recognition are these: -When is real money directly involved? For (un)subscribing or purchasing things with real money, that's obvious. -When is revealing this info not a spoiler to someone unfamiliar? For example, rigging a game's odds in the player's favor is likely a spoiler. -How does this affect humane exit points for players as mentioned in a previous EC episode? This affects play time directly as well as notifications/messages about playing, sales, etc. -When does the game or its makers actively guilt or goad players into continuing past their desired play times and spending limits? -When does the game upcharge someone for something based on real or perceived identity, income, or/and spending habits? (I don't mean tailoring discounts to someone, but instead forcing them to pay a higher base price for something.) -When are Skinner Box mechanics intentionally included to extract more money from players instead of adding enjoyment to the expected player base? There may be more, but these are my criteria beyond "something seemed/felt wrong."
in a desgner that quick design partly because of this dilemma. in the later years of my studie the expectations of what i would consider dark paterns was so expected that i lost all motivation. i was told that if i want to make money i need to implement these things and once i had a reputation and carreer i could afford to be picky. i love design but this dilemma still keeps me up nights.
the line seems more like a wave; the use of dark patterns to lessen the frequency of negativity a player experiences / the use of dark patterns to keep players engaged by being beneficially informative
I ran into this a few days ago cancelling Spotify premium, you can't cancel in the app so I went to the website but the account page didn't work with chrome so I had to load it in Firefox to actually cancel premium.
Something I see as problematic for example is the Gem Store in Guild Wars 2. They have seasonal cosmetic items and that's fine. Also that they are only available for a short time. What irks me is that they advertised as "reduced prize". Yeah, compared to a similar item that's always available (but there are often discounts for those) but these you can only get during the sale.
I think psychopath techniques play a big role in designing dark patterns. If the game's behavior feels like negging or other horrid behavior designed to wear you down, manipulate you, etc, just get the hell out.
'xcuse me but, by that definition even the most basic advertisement at the local food market "You won't find better fish in all of Cyrondill" is a Dark Pattern.
A personal example instantly springs to mind. The way that Azerite Power and Reputation gates are implemented in world of warcraft. Encouraging you to both grind way longer than you'd like and to log in more often than you can else you end up penalized on progression. Missed a day of dailies? Too bad so sad you are now behind until everyone else caps out. Shouldn't have missed that day.
Y'know this one is a puzzling thing Here's a potential example - Warframe is usually pretty good about its monetisation, relatively speaking for a free to play game HOWEVER As part of a daily login reward system, you will occasionally get coupons for the premium currency. From a minimum 20% to a maximum 75% (I think). However these aren't random, because you will only get the 75% coupon if you haven't purchased the currency in a while but keep logging in and ignoring the 20%, 50%, so on That sounds like a Dark Pattern to me
I'd say that if a mechanic involves real-world currency being taken from you and sent to the developer in some way shape or form, then it automatically counts as a dark pattern.
so, buying a game from steam is a dark pattern? buying a dlc is a dark pattern? buying a microtransaction, where you know exactly what you are getting back, is a dark pattern?
Any nudging away from a desired actions in a interactive system that is not a game is bad practice and a dark pattern. I'm not here for a curated experience, I'm here to achieve a goal, and a design stopping me is bad and should be fined actually.
The solution is simpler than you think. Just remove all microtransactions and there won't be any conflict of interest or reason to doubt the developer's intentions. This usually results in better game design as well since the pacing can revolve entirely around player enjoyment with no compromises.
Pokemon has a dark pattern too. A transfer system without an in-game storage that can't be erased when you start over. I miss replaying Pokemon games. Now you have to make a separate profile just to use a basic function. (And "soft lock.")
RE4 has recently come under fire for the option of purchasing upgrades (instead of having some in-game/easy option). Also, there's a lot to be said about addictive personalities and/or those with little life experience.
We shuffle the odds in favor of the player so him taking a risk won't affect the joy of playing. Vs. We say we don't charge you with anything yet you have to buy a butt load of stuff to keep everything up and running. Yeah, the first one definitely has malicious intent😂
Thanks for the video. The discussion will be even more interesting if play to earn takes off, just by its nature. You need to design such that a rich in the real world player is willing to pay other players to slog through the dark patterns. Otherwise if the whole game experience was fun, no player would regularly pay other players.
One of the major fulcrums here is the presence or absence of substantial loss - that is, the loss of a substance (money, time, damages) Designing a game to be as addictive as possible does not directly cause substantial loss. To be as lucrative as possible, though, does cause a loss of money in the consumer. If I play along, what happens to me? If the answer is just "you lose" or "you win", then there's no issue. If the answer is "You pay us more money" then it's time to take a closer look.
If the secret may affect the customer's financical situation negatively. Or basically anything negatively affective towards the customer, then it is not good. Good game gives players pleasurable surprises and keep the community safe. Good game is see through with contracts and makes it all clear and easily understandable for the player. Lets take World of Warcraft as an example. Their EULA is somewhat clear, yet they fail to uphold it to the letter in many cases. And the game is rated PG12 yet it has aspects such as racism, murder, gore, drug uses, torture, attacks on civilians, very much sexualiced character designs, alcohol use (has mechanism that makes you get drunk when you consume alcohol and at certain point you puke.) and it has a lot of slavery in it. All these should make it PG18. Now WoW is indeed a good example about making a game with somewhat good intentions but it gets screwed up due to the in-game shop, minor pay to win mechanism and straight up having wrong age rating. Like... The game has a freaking pin up calendars!!!
But... All companies (and indie devs) build long, polished, complex games with the objective of making money. At least to make enough money to cover the expenses and to fund the next games.
@@DenilsonSa Technically, the main goal of all businesses is to make money, it's when making money is the only goal where dark patterns tend to start appearing... like most of the mobile game industry....
I don't want to know exactly how everything works or what is the likelihood for all aspects of the RNG. I just think it's more enjoyable when the gameplay is somewhere between indentured servant and a king taking a evening walk through the garden. If that makes any sense.
Selling cosmetic things in a multiplayer game: okay Putting those things in lootboxes so you have to keep spending instead of just buying the things you want: dark pattern Specifically matchmaking "underspending" players against players with rare cosmetics to apply social pressure: darker pattern Putting the items in a shop that only has 6 items available every day that rotate out, bought with 1000 of a currency that you can only purchase in 400s but you get a discount if you buy 2400: DARKEST PATTERN (so far)
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honestly, I think an easy rule is iof said pattern increases profits without actuly giving the player anything in return.
The sniff test: would you tell a player of your game about the system?
Sightlines to funnel you to interesting content? Of course you would, most players won't mind you helping them find the fun.
Modifying purchase prices based on platform? Of course you wouldn't want them to know that.
I wish that was said in the video itself, a good test that should work 90% of the time.
What of the more questionable ones, like secretly cheating in the player’s favor as described?
There was a study done that said something like "people expect 70% odds to succeed 90% of the time". So in the XCOM example you wouldn't want to tell the player, bc many players would be upset that their odds are being boosted. But by not telling them, it'd feel more in line with their expectations
@@6ThreeSided9 I think that's a pure judgment call, because different players will feel differently - only you can guess whether the players you expect for your specific game would prefer that or not. Selling a hardcore survival game? Don't do that. Selling a light casual game or a game for kids? It's probably fine.
Why not modify purchase prices based on platform? If a 3rd party is taking a cut on some platforms but there is no 3rd party on others, why shouldn’t a developer be allowed to change purchase prices?
This design honestly keeps me from signing up to more things because I don't want to deal with the frustration.
Same, especially with mobile games. We've been tricked before!!!
It's been a while since I was an Amazon Prime member but basically you say you don't want to renew, they nag you when your term is almost up, then they nag you all the time to be a member (just like they do to all their customers). It's not that bad.
Not a game, but with Adobe they actually charge you with an additional fee in order to cancel your subscription. Next level scumming which just encourages me to pirate.
Related concept. The FOMO tactics so many games do now have a backfire effect where once you *do* miss out you feel like you can't come back because you've already missed things. I haven't played a game I loved and was a whale for in six months because I missed out. Why should I come back to a game that I can't play properly?
@@RialuCaos That feels illegal.
I'm quite surprised you did talked about an important aspect in all of this: transparency.
For exemple, IMO it's completely fine to match new online players to bots, but the most problem is that the player has often no way to find out.
Being transparent on those design choices help make sure that it is a "designed experience" and not manipulation. Giving a way for designers to hint to a desired behavior from their customers, without impairing on their autonomy.
Players need ways of reporting and seeing reports. You are preaching to the choir as the devs in your audience are trying to better their game. The offenders are the corporate managers that tell their devs to implement the dark pattern. How can players unite and shove those games to the bottom of the search results?
There are also players who watch this channel. And we always thank you for the heads up! Gr8 content.
Good game design, things to encourage players to play in a more fun way, and keeps them coming back
Dark Patterns: systems and designs set up to deliberately drain the player’s bank account
This distinction kind makes sense, but misses the point that if the game with a good game desing has a subscription system, encouraging the players to keep coming back kinda makes that game want you too keep paying.
Or if the game has some items/characeters that make the game a whole lot of fun, but are only avaible via purchase or grinding? Genshin Impact comes to my mind in this example, some characters are so fun to play, but only accessible via the gacha system.
@@meunomejaestavaemuso True. Some certain games are the opposite of that but I have not enough info for this question.
I think we’re also missing a game design idea in the opposite direction. A horror/suspense game that uses dark patterns in-universe(with in game currency only, of course) to depict a hyper capitalist dystopia.
And the title is given "dark pattern"
I know of a game made by a Japanese gacha game fan with an "IAP" screen that emulates spending money on content and keeps track of how much you've spent. The whole game is absolutely free.
I freaking love this
that's spamton from deltarune
Are you proposing the creation of Microtransaction Tycoon?
Negative actions (actions that substract , deny or not do something) are usually colored red.
Positive actions (actions that add, confirm or act on something) are usually colored green.
When a game switches those colors around, I consider this a dark pattern, as the game is trying to get me to do/not do something I didn't want/wanted to do. More obvious example is Cancel-Confirm buttons (especially for purchases or subscriptions)
As an Experience Designer and Researcher, I agree Dark Patterns are a huge pain in the butt and I hate to see everyday people struggle with them just because companies don't want to lose revenue...
As someone that worked credit card customer service in the early 2000's, I couldn't even imagine how many chargebacks I had to initiate for customers against AOL for not letting people cancel their subscriptions. I understand the concept of retention and offering a deal to keep someone, but when someone refuses the offer then the account should be closed immediately.
I would personally define a dark pattern as "a design decision that makes it harder for the consumer to make their intended monetary decision" since it's using pre-existing design options for monetary gain like how lootboxes use random chance to keep players from easily paying for what they want.
That covers a major facet, for sure, but since I tend to play exclusively freebie games (on my phone, at least), yet still experience dark patterns, I'd say that time-wasting is also a big deal. Things that keep me playing the game past the point of enjoyment is certainly a big pattern I've noticed. Though, in fairness, it's *typically* tied to a mechanic I typically ignore, which is "hey you could pay to get past this annoying part" -- since I have zero intention (negative intention, really) of paying for games with recognizably bad design (yet still play them, in part because of my hobbyist interest in game design), the "get out of annoyance" mechanic affects my time and frustration level, not my monetary decisions.
Technically, just about any feature designed to relieve frustration is going to have the potential to be a dark pattern. A lot of it comes down to the side-effects, though. Does the feature cause the experience to be better, or simply longer? Is it a bandage-on-a-brain-tumor solution (ie. the root issue isn't even remotely addressed, just sidestepped), or does it actually add value? Because if the sole purpose is to keep the player playing (or paying!), it's definitely sketchy at best and almost certainly can be classified as a dark pattern.
That's a really hard one to answer. For example, the "pity" mechanic when pulling for characters in Genshin is really helpful to avoid players feeling like they've been scammed ... but it's also the only gacha game I've ever been willing to pay money into, and I can't honestly say the pity mechanic wasn't a big factor in that decision
So is a lives system a light pattern and is rapid-fire respawn a dark pattern?
@@ps2maneverything417 not by themselves. dark patterns come largely from the developer or publisher selling you a solution to a problem that they created.
limited lives systems are often implemented as part of a dark pattern where the player is allowed to purchase more lives with real money (or with an in-game currency that can be purchased with real money).
The classic megaman games also used limited lives, but as a way to prevent the player from getting stuck on a stage they didn't have the right tools to beat.
From my point of view dark patterns appear when you add a mechanic makes the game less enjoyable for the player, is unnecessary and/or is used to increase the profitability of the game in a way which fells unfair.
So almost every progression/reward system in a live service game then?
@@PlebNC Only if that system were to add paid bonuses to empower players that spend more.
On some level, isn't every mechanic "unnecessary"?
Most online games are like that.
Mostly as far I know of.
Good game design = "Shut up and take my money!"
Dark Pattern = "Shut up and give us your money!"
So, when you combine the two...?
@@JarieSuicune You get Team Fortress 2.
"SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY THAT I REALLY SHOULDNT NEED TO SPEND BUT THAT'S F2P GAME FOR YA"
Talking about this "dark pattern" being compared to gacha games akin to Genshin Impact to a whole new level
Genshin is surprisingly great because you can do 100% of the game for free. There aren’t really any meaningful p2w mechanics and the whole thing is single player. If there is a dark pattern it’s weeb lust.
@@themugwump33 Weeb lust: The darkest of all dark patterns
@@themugwump33 Grinding excessively IS dark pattern, repeating same action several times because quicker way requires paying IS dark pattern.
Dark pattern games site does wonders showing dark pattern mobile games. Which are 99% of dark pattern game market
Sounds like Season Pass style systems to me. Regardless of if they're free or not, they often encourage players to play waaay longer beyond what they'd comfortably play otherwise, which is bad because it encourages player burnout which neither players or devs want. And the ones that make those rewards unavailable post-season are the worst because it adds unnecessary pressure to players already engaging with that system and discourages new players because if they start a few seasons late they'll be a bunch of stuff they're never going to have a chance to get.
Baldur's gate 3 has an option that lets you decide whether you want the die to roll pseudo randomly, meaning that you'll likely never experience several consequtive bad rolls and never get a good roll. If you turn the option off, you're left with a completely random die that will most likely screw you up multiple times.
I personally really like giving the users the option to pick whether they want the "realistic approach" or if they want an experience more tailored in our favour.
In case you need your day (and your faith in society in general) completely ruined, go watch the video called "Let's Go Whaling" about monetizing mobile games. Gotta love a presentation that kicks off with the presenter saying, "We're not going to discuss the morality of this topic"
It's hypocritical in my opinion.
Is that the one with the CEO whom the userbse nicknamed "Goldemort" after he super inflated the virtual economy by over 3000% (and users got banned for calling him by his real name) or is there another openly immoral whaling video?
There was a study done that said something like "people expect 70% odds to succeed 90% of the time". So in the XCOM example it might be more in-line with a player's expectations to boost the odds and hide it from them, rather than to leave the odds unchanged or tell them about changes
I know quite a few Fire Emblem games do this; where hit rates that show as some number above 50% are actually higher than displayed, and those shown as below 50% are lower than displayed
Yeah, it's better to lie to them and make them keep expecting this kind of thing?
People are already bad enough at probabilities, let's not make them any worse, thanks
I think just displaying what the actual roll was would help, like they do in classic RPGs.
Like the above poster mentioned, some Fire Emblem games actually roll two RNGs and take the average of the two. So numbers fall more in the middle, making it harder to miss with that 90% chance of hitting. The random numbers "feel" more accurate.
I used to play RuneScape and that game has so many daily and weekly events that are so much more efficient (or even the only way to acquire a certain resource) than normal gameplay that you often see people struggling to play the game itself because they would spend all their game time doing chores
I think that the categorization of dark patterns isn't as difficult to categorize as you've made it out to be. The crux of the problem isn't the manipulation of the players - it's manipulation of the player *as consumer* to withold or skew the monetary elements of the game while functionally extorting money out of them. Game mechanics explicitly designed to have players make uninformed purchases or strongarm them into paying for something they don't want is decisively a dark pattern.
It's basically the inverse of the fallacious argument that companies made once of "lootboxes being a form of artistic expression." It's true from a very technical sense, but it isn't held to that standard because it can be clearly seperated from art as instead a means of manipulative practice.
In the same metric, there are many forms of player manipulation in video games, but dark patterns are decidedly and demonstrably malicious in their implementation. Of course it could be difficult to define and distinguish them legally, but I'd still argue it wouldn't be that difficult to find appropriate legal wording for.
I'm glad that I'm not the only person that took issue with how fuzzy the definition was, but I don't think you've got it right either. It feels intuitive to divide dark patterns into two, distinct categories, as you've done. My problem is that you don't seem concerned with non-monetary dark patterns, but - thinking about it - I'm inclined to believe that certain designs can be nefarious without a monetary component. A game that intentionally sets out to monopolize your time isn't really any better than one that paywalls your progress.
In either case, you could make the easy, lazy argument that simple discipline and a little common sense could protect you from these predatory designs. At the end of the day, though, I think that if we're going to make judgements about predatory systems we've got to keep the definition open to all sorts of maligned manipulation. Games want to be played, but not at an unreasonable expense to the player, and that expense can be anything that the player values and - without being persuaded to act against their own self-interests - wouldn't part with in exchange for what you're offering.
@@WestlyLaFleur Now that is where I could see some fuzzy lines being drawn. But I'm not sure that's even something you'd even want to dabble in - at least from a legal angle.
Arcades back in the day used to use excessive difficulty to punish players and get more coins out of them. RPGs still use padding to inflate playtime. These can both be annoying, but are difficulty and game length really something we want to police? Quantifying fun over artificial player engagement is something that seems like it's always going to be muddy and subjective, so I couldn't even begin to posit how one would approach that.
*Objective* is the key word here...
If you have a strategy game with an option to DISMISS or DELETE a character from your roster, you gotta shove that option as far away as you can get it, and make the CANCEL button as clear as possible, so accidents don't happen...
Cause believe it, my friend, they will happen
Why didn't I think of this! I must check back
Like Star Trek Online where you have to type the name of the Character to delete them
I suppose a good start to dealing with Dark Patterns would be to force gaming companies (especially those with Micro Transactions) to be transparent about their earnings.
Shine a big enough spotlight on the sales floor and we can start to see what they are dragging their customers through.
I think the bot thing could be separated as its own mode rather than to put it secretly in matches. Like that, players who already played on another platform can directly go in the fun against real players.
How to make your lootbox system morally acceptable: Step1, right click on your lootbox system. Step 2, click "Delete". Congratulations, you have now converted your lootbox system to be morally acceptable ;)
I personally think that Dark Pattern laws should mostly be tied to monetary transactions, but I would definitely approve on limitations that prevent companies from forcing unreasonable playtime/hours.
In a personal example, there's one game I regularly play that won't let you get your full daily rewards unless you log in after 11'o clock. That's not viable for children in middle school or under, and even for me in my twenties it feels like it makes me feel guilty if I go to bed before 12.
Granted timezones may be a factor here (the in game clock is 2 hours behind me, so in game the last rewards unlock at 9'o clock) but my point stands
The XCOM devs did whaaaaaaat? *flashbacks of a 90% missed shot with a point blank shotgun*
How many times did that happen? How many times in row?
Doesn’t that only apply on difficulties below Classic and Impossible?
The darkest pattern: NFT Lootboxes
Ubisoft: Write that down!
I think multi-pay models (subscription-based, microtransactions, multiple waves of paid DLC, etc) should be way more heavily scrutinized than single-pay models. Honestly, if you have a game that you pay for once, and it employs strategies to get you to keep on playing, that's... I mean, you're not spending any more money on it.
Hell, even something like Animal Crossing does that, with weeds growing in your village and villagers commenting on your absence.
Being able to take breaks from a game that does employ these strategies should be an accessibility feature, though.
The line goes on monetization. I see a lot of mobile game forcing you to use your free premium items in the tutorial priming you to buy some later, possible for real money. While if this had been a item you couldn't buy and was just part of the game like potions in Pokemon games, the situation is different.
YESSS! Oh man I hate this. "Here is a form of in-game currency (or key item) that pretty clearly you will have a strictly limited number of later on (if you don't pay us). In order to proceed with the game, you will now be forced to use a thousand of these in order to shortcut this irritating mechanic that would otherwise force you to wait ten minutes for the next thing to happen. No, we won't let you wait those ten minutes to save the item. Use the item. It is the only way to continue. USE THE ITEM."
Good video. Another dark pattern example is FOMO and easier to gain freemium currrency by paying rather than playing. This is especially prevalent in gacha games.
This is something I'm gonna be thinking about for the next week
I f’ing LOVE extra credits videos about video game ethics
A "certain action" in the case of these designs is to extract as much undeserved money out of the player as possible.
So pretty much to remove dark patterns, you need to have a solid GDD (game design document) and sticking to the pillars written in GDD.
4:12 - What is important to remember this that "All Art is Manipulative". If people have a hard time understanding that, then at least think about that "All Game Design is Manipulative". Everything in a game is artificial and has been put there, for a specific reason, by a human person. Everything from the "feel" of a jump or walk animation, to the placement of objects, was put there for a reason.
This. In the middle of the video I was thinking something like "you don't actually have free will in games." Everything IS trying to get you to do something or feel something etc.
This was what I felt like after signing up for Hello Fresh. Hard to figure out what the supposed deal I was signing up for ended up being. Then tons of emails when I tried to quit and lots of hassel of trying to change a plan rather than quit.
I think in terms of XCom, it's not so much deceiving you on how good you are, but just making ACTUAL probability line up with PERCEIVED probability, because our brains are bad at that kind of math. Being good at XCom is about taking informed risks (in addition to lots of other stuff), and I think the devs just want to tip the game into the player feeling rewarded for making good decisions (even if the actual number-crunching says otherwise.)
All that said, I've seen people STILL complain the RNG in XCom is unfair...
The easy and clear cut ones to start would be any prompt to spend money, divulge personal information, share on social media, and installing other apps/programs.
I want those things restricted right now, before figuring out the trickier dark patterns like time/addiction/etc.
For me, the main criteria of 'Dark Pattern' recognition are these:
-When is real money directly involved? For (un)subscribing or purchasing things with real money, that's obvious.
-When is revealing this info not a spoiler to someone unfamiliar? For example, rigging a game's odds in the player's favor is likely a spoiler.
-How does this affect humane exit points for players as mentioned in a previous EC episode? This affects play time directly as well as notifications/messages about playing, sales, etc.
-When does the game or its makers actively guilt or goad players into continuing past their desired play times and spending limits?
-When does the game upcharge someone for something based on real or perceived identity, income, or/and spending habits? (I don't mean tailoring discounts to someone, but instead forcing them to pay a higher base price for something.)
-When are Skinner Box mechanics intentionally included to extract more money from players instead of adding enjoyment to the expected player base?
There may be more, but these are my criteria beyond "something seemed/felt wrong."
in a desgner that quick design partly because of this dilemma. in the later years of my studie the expectations of what i would consider dark paterns was so expected that i lost all motivation. i was told that if i want to make money i need to implement these things and once i had a reputation and carreer i could afford to be picky. i love design but this dilemma still keeps me up nights.
You should do a follow up on this specifically for Diablo Immortal!
I definitely will call Internet Historian if I ever get arrested. Thanks for the tip.
the line seems more like a wave; the use of dark patterns to lessen the frequency of negativity a player experiences / the use of dark patterns to keep players engaged by being beneficially informative
The morning brew add is actually an add for the bodum french press.
I've seen a few disney game apps that are downright diabolical.
I ran into this a few days ago cancelling Spotify premium, you can't cancel in the app so I went to the website but the account page didn't work with chrome so I had to load it in Firefox to actually cancel premium.
2:19 Nah that wasn't deceptive Business practices... that was Deceptive Zoey Practices!
4:48 there could be a discussion about the difference between being cheated and feeling cheated
Something I see as problematic for example is the Gem Store in Guild Wars 2.
They have seasonal cosmetic items and that's fine. Also that they are only available for a short time. What irks me is that they advertised as "reduced prize". Yeah, compared to a similar item that's always available (but there are often discounts for those) but these you can only get during the sale.
I think psychopath techniques play a big role in designing dark patterns. If the game's behavior feels like negging or other horrid behavior designed to wear you down, manipulate you, etc, just get the hell out.
I love this video, super thought provoking will share with friends
'xcuse me but, by that definition even the most basic advertisement at the local food market "You won't find better fish in all of Cyrondill" is a Dark Pattern.
Dark patterns will become more and more mainstream as long as games in general keep going towards F2P model. Inevitable.
The new legendary patreon threw me off more than he should
As a developer, I think it is our responsibility to push back - hard - on companies when we are asked to build dark patterns!
A personal example instantly springs to mind. The way that Azerite Power and Reputation gates are implemented in world of warcraft. Encouraging you to both grind way longer than you'd like and to log in more often than you can else you end up penalized on progression. Missed a day of dailies? Too bad so sad you are now behind until everyone else caps out. Shouldn't have missed that day.
4:37 they actually included the cat ear attachment lmao
Dark Pattrern sounds like a Phillip K. Dick novel
Y'know this one is a puzzling thing
Here's a potential example - Warframe is usually pretty good about its monetisation, relatively speaking for a free to play game
HOWEVER
As part of a daily login reward system, you will occasionally get coupons for the premium currency. From a minimum 20% to a maximum 75% (I think). However these aren't random, because you will only get the 75% coupon if you haven't purchased the currency in a while but keep logging in and ignoring the 20%, 50%, so on
That sounds like a Dark Pattern to me
I'd say that if a mechanic involves real-world currency being taken from you and sent to the developer in some way shape or form, then it automatically counts as a dark pattern.
so, buying a game from steam is a dark pattern?
buying a dlc is a dark pattern?
buying a microtransaction, where you know exactly what you are getting back, is a dark pattern?
Simple, just ask yourself: "Is this something WarGaming would do?"
Increasingly I'm dissatisfied with my favorite RUclips channel...
Any nudging away from a desired actions in a interactive system that is not a game is bad practice and a dark pattern. I'm not here for a curated experience, I'm here to achieve a goal, and a design stopping me is bad and should be fined actually.
I dont think ive cancelled a single subscription service that didnt have a "dark pattern"
The solution is simpler than you think. Just remove all microtransactions and there won't be any conflict of interest or reason to doubt the developer's intentions. This usually results in better game design as well since the pacing can revolve entirely around player enjoyment with no compromises.
Having no free to play games is a drastic choice.
Pokemon has a dark pattern too.
A transfer system without an in-game storage that can't be erased when you start over.
I miss replaying Pokemon games.
Now you have to make a separate profile just to use a basic function. (And "soft lock.")
I’m sorry, but I don’t understand what you are trying to say. Can you rephrase or elaborate?
Gotta love companies and site designers incorporating these to make more money.. woohoo
The 'line' is money. It's that simple.
3:20 oh so all of pre orders
I’m in the early stages of making a horror game that may walk this line.
this video basically describes what My Talking Tom and My Takling Angela still does to my younger siblings
I’m a simple person. I see a Clockwork Orange reference in the thumbnail, I click.
With email, I just filter those annoying subscriptions to go directly to my spam folder.
how bout "Don't Be a Perpetrator of Dark Patterns"
3:51 Wait what? That's not the game I remember! :'D
RE4 has recently come under fire for the option of purchasing upgrades (instead of having some in-game/easy option). Also, there's a lot to be said about addictive personalities and/or those with little life experience.
Bad company 2 required me to wait for an entiter match to load before I could quit the one I just finished
We shuffle the odds in favor of the player so him taking a risk won't affect the joy of playing.
Vs.
We say we don't charge you with anything yet you have to buy a butt load of stuff to keep everything up and running.
Yeah, the first one definitely has malicious intent😂
Thanks for the video.
The discussion will be even more interesting if play to earn takes off, just by its nature. You need to design such that a rich in the real world player is willing to pay other players to slog through the dark patterns. Otherwise if the whole game experience was fun, no player would regularly pay other players.
Well we’re gonna need 2 versions of dark patterns, the bad ones, and also the on a that are there to help the game or website
The same way when I tried to delete my Crunchyroll subscription I swear to God it's felt like it took 30 minutes
One of the major fulcrums here is the presence or absence of substantial loss - that is, the loss of a substance (money, time, damages)
Designing a game to be as addictive as possible does not directly cause substantial loss.
To be as lucrative as possible, though, does cause a loss of money in the consumer.
If I play along, what happens to me?
If the answer is just "you lose" or "you win", then there's no issue.
If the answer is "You pay us more money" then it's time to take a closer look.
That is an adorable dog. Love your style of art in your videos.
When signing up takes minutes and canceling takes hours. Gym memberships.
Is anyone aware Extra Credits is coming up on their 10th anniversary?
What about "something that only seems acceptable when the user doesn't know it's happening or about to happen"
Yeah, this sort of design is always frustrating to deal with.
Recent Paper Mario games do accessibility and difficulty by making bosses easier as you fail. There is no way to turn this off.
I thought this would be about falling into game addiction... guess that proves the point here! Also yeah the stupid ads are annoying...
The most important factor to consider is if the company is benefiting monetarily from the deception. That would be unethical and should be punished
If the secret may affect the customer's financical situation negatively. Or basically anything negatively affective towards the customer, then it is not good. Good game gives players pleasurable surprises and keep the community safe. Good game is see through with contracts and makes it all clear and easily understandable for the player. Lets take World of Warcraft as an example. Their EULA is somewhat clear, yet they fail to uphold it to the letter in many cases. And the game is rated PG12 yet it has aspects such as racism, murder, gore, drug uses, torture, attacks on civilians, very much sexualiced character designs, alcohol use (has mechanism that makes you get drunk when you consume alcohol and at certain point you puke.) and it has a lot of slavery in it. All these should make it PG18.
Now WoW is indeed a good example about making a game with somewhat good intentions but it gets screwed up due to the in-game shop, minor pay to win mechanism and straight up having wrong age rating. Like... The game has a freaking pin up calendars!!!
Ha ha the painting restoration…
Money, if the motivation is Gaining Money or Personal Information (not including purchase due to enjoyment) its a Dark Pattern.
But... All companies (and indie devs) build long, polished, complex games with the objective of making money. At least to make enough money to cover the expenses and to fund the next games.
@@DenilsonSa Technically, the main goal of all businesses is to make money, it's when making money is the only goal where dark patterns tend to start appearing... like most of the mobile game industry....
@@DenilsonSa "(not including purchase due to enjoyment)"
I don't want to know exactly how everything works or what is the likelihood for all aspects of the RNG. I just think it's more enjoyable when the gameplay is somewhere between indentured servant and a king taking a evening walk through the garden. If that makes any sense.
Selling cosmetic things in a multiplayer game: okay
Putting those things in lootboxes so you have to keep spending instead of just buying the things you want: dark pattern
Specifically matchmaking "underspending" players against players with rare cosmetics to apply social pressure: darker pattern
Putting the items in a shop that only has 6 items available every day that rotate out, bought with 1000 of a currency that you can only purchase in 400s but you get a discount if you buy 2400: DARKEST PATTERN (so far)
Microtransactions and subscription fees are themselves dark patterns. They exist solely to manipulate players.
Did I miss something? I think the answer is really easy. I mean, "does this involve microtransactions? yes/no" seems to be an easy line.
Yes! You missed the tens of thousands of titles with clearly labeled, responsible microtransactions:) Pretty obvious I'm shocked you missed that...
If you design a product entirely out of dark patterns, you get a social media web site.
the dark side of the patters is a pathway to many games some would consider to be... unnatural