I loved how the Kotor games used their own score. It gave them a distinct feel from other star wars media, which was good because the games were set in a distinctly different time in star wars.
The Old Republic as it has evolved is really interesting because it kind of does some of what he's talking about here, but the iconography, while feeling very Star Wars, is its own. So instead of callbacks to Luke and co. the mmo draws on Revan's story, etc.
@@Carblesnarky They do kinda still do it to a degree though with stuff like how the Republic soldiers in KotOR 1 and 2 look like Rebel soldiers and Clone Troopers in TOR. Unlike say how the Sith Troopers are clearly based off of Stormtroopers but also really distinct and different from them in their design.
It's strange how Star Wars is a series so overburdened with the weight of its accidental success that it has completely forgotten how storytelling works.
In regards to the Vader bit, I liked it for reasons other than "ayyy it's Vader!". It demonstrated that for as strong as Cal has become, for all that he's achieved, he's still barely strong enough to FEND OFF Darth Vader. If anything, the Vader pursuit sequence was a bit of a slasher horror moment, almost a memento mori meant to humble the player.
GmodPlusWoW Agreed- it’s a game version of the hallway fight from Rogue One. Vader’s practically a boogeyman here, this unstoppable force of nature who’s probably not even trying while you’re fleeing for your life. The guy literally fights Cal and Cera with one hand, which just shows how low everything you’ve fought in the game compares to him power-wise
So much this. I'm not entirely burnt out on star wars, that's like saying "I'm burnt out on steampunk" or "I'm burnt out on medieval fantasy". I'm done with the characters and events of the original trilogy, I just wish Disney and EA were too. That's why I actually like the mandalorian, it's star wars without the endless cameos and references. Just a space-western set in the universe.
Disney and EA will never be done with the OT. It's too profitable. So they'll keep dipping into the OT as long as it makes money and honestly, if we're talking about new stories, the Old EU had that in abundance with stories entirely disconnected from the films. Look up the Legacy Era for more or Dark Horse's excellent run of KOTOR comics.
Statistically, it's not us driving these companies behavior. We care about Star Wars, and video games as a medium, much more than the average consumers. We're in the distinct minority, and it shows.
@@1r0zz I laughed when I seen that as well. As long as EA holds onto Star Wars we will never see an original or inspired game from the franchise ever again. Just more of what the drones play.
@@deadrebelstorage779 It's like people got so used to mediocrity that it became how games are made... This game design is pretty much "what this genre is supposed to be"; like Ubisoft robot made games(last assassins creed makes AC:Unity a wonder of game design)... There's climbing because god of war/uncharted had climbing. There's hard checkpoints because dark souls. Heck, the story characters probably exist there for political reasons more than narrative reasons!
Star Wars shouldn't be treated like a very preciously guarded set of specific stories....that's not what makes it so memorable. It's memorable because it's a SETTING, like medieval fantasy or steampunk. It's a set of tropes, sounds, and ideas that can be used to tell an infinite number of stories. The entire conceit of Lucas' dedication to Joseph Campbell was to say that great stories are like great food: Anyone can do it if they just follow the recipe. Luke is generic to an almost laughable degree, so is Han. It was never meant to be held up as the great paragon of character studies that cannot be examined, changed, or challenged. It was just a super fun space movie with laser swords and talking robots. All I want is for everyone to stop pretending Star Wars is serious and just have fun with it again!
This was why I liked The Mandalorian so much more than the new trilogy. More than anything else in a while, it really felt part of the Star Wars universe. I want less epic Skywalker and Palpatine bloodlines, and more scum and villainy.
@@TehVulpez Agreed. I have many thoughts on the sequels, but my favorite recent Star Wars stuff has been the CG shows, Mandalorian, and Rogue One - because you can watch them without any prior knowledge and still enjoy yourself. It doesn't matter what the force is, how lightsabers work, or why imperial stormtroopers have bad aim. All that matters is that we want this thing, the bad guys won't let us have it, and we're gonna resolve that sht with lasers and magic!
I agree with your sentiment about Fallen Order's smart use of the Star Wars Iconography without being all o/` "STAAAR WAAARS, HEY THIS IS STAAAR WARS, TOLD YA IT'S STAAAR WARS, DID YOU GET IT YET?" o/`
This is kind of why I love KOTOR II so much despite its horrendous unfinished bugginess. It takes (tonally similar to the movies) KOTOR I and uses that established world to do some very very interesting exploration of the setting. It's telling that there isn't even really a war, just a bunch of murky agendas tearing apart a Republic that's crumbling *even though it won the wars*. It is a personal journey for the project and saving the galaxy is basically an afterthought. Absolutely my favorite piece of Star Wars media.
KOTOR was written by Star Wars fans who didn't feel the need to point out that they're Star Wars fans. Same with The Mandalorian. You can tell they're fans because of their attention to thematic details. Both those properties are their own stories with the iconography and theme being used for setting, background and atmosphere. That's actually what I really hate about the new movies. They spend too much time proving to us that they're actual Star Wars fans with the stories being about being Star Wars stories. Also I think KOTOR 2 might be too deconstructive for Disney's plans.
@@psychowordsmith I think you're right about KotOR 2. I mean, Kreia labelled *The Force itself,* as her enemy. She laid the blame of all the galaxy's atrocities at it's feet, and if we really examine what: "The Will of the Force" is, we get a singlular conclusion(metatextually): Us, and our need to see more Star *WARS.* That desire drives their blood fueled universe into existence, and into endless conflict with itself. We are the heartless ambition of The Force, to see more conflict, more devastation, and more unlikely heroes rise to the challenge and thus validate our own sense of morality. The writer's may give the universe shape, but it's our will to witness Star Wars that incentivizes writer's to conjure up more trouble for the universe's inhabitants. Star War's writers are it's pantheon of gods, and we the fans, are the universe's inspiration, and devil tempting them into further chaos and disrepair!
@@psychowordsmith I'd totally love to see an intertextual reason given for the metatextual narrative's existence. Something like: "The Force is using the wars of Star Wars, to perfect itself. Ultimately, it's trying to make a perfect and everlasting good, but such a project requires the universe to be built up and burned down a countless number of times to forge perfection." In this way, the Will of The Force is good, and it reflects our desire to see good ultimately triumph; but it also describes how we selfishly use these imaginary people's lives to make ourselves into better people. It also gives villain's like Kreia a deep and sympathetic motivation, and depending on how you read the situation, Kreia's: "freedom from The Force" may actually be a universe ending catastrophe; but she simply doesn't know. We've never had an existence ending threat in Star Wars, and I think this could be an interesting path to bring a thoughtful and lore friendly one to Star Wars.
@@thesurvivorssanctuary6561 It's was an awesome _idea_ that was entirely absent from the actual plot, probably because they were spinning too many plates and the idiotic "Force Wound" RPG meta-commentary nonsense was their top priority.
I remember saying basically all of this to anyone who would listen in 2012 and no one listened. I said that the worst thing they could do is have this be about the original trio or their kids. everyone looked at me like I was crazy. it's very tiring being right so damn often.
Matthew Colville put it best when he said "I want a new star wars movie, not a new movie _about_ star wars" And from this review I get the distinct impression that Vader (and maybe other characters from the franchise) should've been secret, optional bosses, a la Data Bossfights in Kingdom Hearts.
when you called fallen order a mosaic with negative connotation, mosaics are done purposefully as a positive. for negative connotation, theres mishmash and hodgepodge
"no it's not a spoiler because they put that in the trailer" -- they included a short picture of him looking at the camera. they didn't reveal that the game leads up to a duel with him
@Yo Momma i never watched the trailers so yeah it is a spoiler and id have been pissed if somebody spoiled it for me cuz it was a cool moment i didnt expect
I stumbled across this video in my recommended feed, and I honestly had no clue what angle your were going to take from the title. I had a slight fear that it would be yet another video lambasting new Star Wars (because we don't have enough of that already). So color me pleasantly surprised when it turned out to be primarily focused on the video games and brought attention to something I was subconsciously or mildly aware of, but never heavily considered until now: the obsession with the iconography of the original trilogy. I actually noticed recently that Disney has only been using iconography from the original trilogy and sequel trilogy for their marketing and other things. The most apparent example in recent memory being the new flashy Star Wars intro made for The Mandalorian only showing characters from the original and sequel trilogies. Not a single prequel character was there (R2 and 3PO don't count as they are in almost everything). That kind of annoyed me. TL; DR - I half-expected another video about how Disney is making Star Wars worse, or something. Instead, I gained a new perspective on the Star Wars franchise as a whole, both old and new; and its fixation with iconography. This was honestly a breath of fresh air for me, so thank you.
The topic of iconography in Star Wars is an interesting one. There's been an over reliance on it even before the Disney stuff and it's past the point of getting old but at the same time I don't think the series needs to completely ditch the old stuff. It's not like we can never use Vader or the Millennium Falcon in a new Star Wars story ever again but if they are going to show up they need to serve a purpose past "Oh look it's that thing I remember and liked from before!" The Mandalorian is a good example, Baby Yoda is a clear use of familiar imagery yet it provides a new twist that lets it stand on it's own.
Missing from all this discussion is how good the Marvel comic series have been in the last few years. Of course there is purely iconographic content, but there are excellent side characters becoming their own thing and doing it extremely well while being a few steps removed from the core "Star Warsy" heroes. Doctor Aphra is probably the best one, and it doesn't even share the heavy tone of more regular SW story lines. I'm watching with interest to see where SW goes in the next few years, now that the sequel trilogy is done. I'm hoping for an organic expansion outward into the galaxy. All of this is under the watchful eye of the Lucasfilm Story Group, who gatekeep any new story lines, as it all has to fit in somehow.
@@rarewhiteape Oh yeah I had forgotten about the comics so im glad someone brought them up. I haven't read a ton of the Marvel comics mostly just the Darth Vader ones but everything I've seen has been nice.
@@koifish835 The DV comics are some of my favourite. Have you read the story covering the construction of his fortress on Mustafar? It's amazing. His dedication to the dark side is something to behold.
When I watched the mandalorian I was glad that it was a story in the star wars universe that had no relation with the main characters from the movies, just as you describe the game to be. Sure, the baby yoda thing helps to invoke the old movies, but still. Hope they keep making stories like those, because I love its universe.
I haven't even seen the show yet. But they could have legit token advantage of force users that aren't into the Sith or Jedi. People need to remember those are just clans trying to keep each other in check regardless of the consequences which eventually led to their down fall. A force using bounty hunter with light sabers and blasters is awesome to see.
I think Fallen Order used Vader perfectly. The whole final stage is a power trip until Vader comes to remind you of the Empire's true power. Trilla has been towering over you the whole game and when you finally beat her she's but an ant compared to Vader. By the time the cutscene ends and you're facing Vader i was like "guess this is where i die" and that's exactly what Vader represents, fear.
I would say that the intro reminds me way more of a guardians of the galaxy intro thing actually, this is a good thing. Ironically, they way that fallen order was structured in terms of it skimping on rethreading old ground was the thing that made me really become invested in the game and probably like it more than the ones that did
Thank you for hitting the nail on the head as to why Star Wars isn't so much bad as it is just plain exhausting. All they seem to want to do is just go "HEY LOOK AT THIS THING FROM STAR WARS AND LOOK OVER THERE THAT'S A COOL PART OF STAR WARS RIGHT?" to the point of ad nauseum.
I'm a little disappointed that you didn't go into further detail on the vast mechanical improvements Battlefront II made over its predecessor, but this is a really well made video. Analyzing the patchwork inspirations that helped create A New Hope and Jedi Fallen Order was really clever ^_^
wile123456 I always got the impression that the transition was the phase one clone troopers to phase 2 where they look closer to stormtroopers, and then when the republic falls the empire puts them all in the standard stormtrooper outfit to rip away the personality of the variety of clone outfits and make everything more uniform.
@@MichaelMcCallister097 yes I get the symbolism, but realistically speaking, throwing everything away in the first few years doesn't make sense. The videos point could have been even stronger if they avoided the common stormtroper iconography and made their own unique designs instead
Your montage of classic SW games with characters and set pieces from the movies reminded me of the reason I liked KotOR (the original) so much, same recognizable universe but with new content
Except from the fact that Star Wars games are way too Jedi-infested these days, it's great to see the franchise alive and well. Still waiting for another X-Wing series game, though.
To be fair... There were only the original star wars battlefront, Star Wars Republic Commando, Star Wars Battlefront I EA (ironically enough) that tried to move on from the Jedi. (Ignoring all the flight simulators and Starship Arcade shooters)
@@AAhmou Yeah, ignoring all the games without Jedi, there weren't many games without Jedi. The games with Jedi were also built around them, they weren't shoehorned in like in Battlefront 2 or SW Galaxies.
i think in some ways it's actually better that fallen order doesn't have to try to influence games the way star wars influenced movies. that's an impossibly huge task for something that is just a spinoff of an existing franchise. by being just a video game that isn't trying to do too much, it can have its own unique flavor even in the shadow of star wars. if there's any way i want fallen order to influence other games, it's to make games that are just "clones" of other games still have their own identity
@@Alianger I mean George Lucas along with other members of his class at USC (e.g. Spielberg, John Millius) helped each other a lot, so it doesn't surprise me that he feels that helping his friends made him as happy ore moreso as making his own films (and indeed, that bringing his friends in and talking to them about his movies helped them become better movies).
Things like Jedi Fallen Order and The Mandalorian give me hope that the future of Star Wars can actually be at least somewhat new and interesting instead of a complete retread of things that came before. Despite how much I didn't like Rise of Skywalker and how mixed the Disney-era movies have been in general I'm still looking forward to what comes next. Ideally now that the Skywalker Saga is over the door is open for the movies and franchise as a whole to move on.
Augh, now I've gotta go dig up a supercut of Ton Kane's Clone Wars voice...crawls? The thing at the beginning of the episode where he basically narrates an opening crawl. I love them.
I'm also tired of not necessarily Star Wars, but Star Wars retreading itself. Fallen Order hit for me the same way that Republic Commando or Rogue One hit, even if those are arguably more "Star Wars-y" titles than Fallen Order: they're at their best when they're barely about Star Wars. There's nary a lightsaber in Republic Commando or Rogue One (except for that one part), and it's refreshing to see the setting used to explore the conflicts between intergalactic dynasties instead of the personal drama of Chosen One space wizards. Fallen Order might be tied to those lightsabers and space wizards but it's still really fun to explore the setting in original ways. Thanks for making this!
I was just rewatching your outer wilds videos last night and was wondering when the next Signal was coming. Got to have it with coffee this morning. Good start to the day!
The closing statement here pretty much sums up why I have not - and will not - watch Rise of Skywalker. Returning the franchise to JJ Abrams was the wrong move and the path paved by Rian Johnson was the one Star Wars should have followed.
EA: "Soooooo......we bought your company. Do you make any FPS?" Bullfrog: "What? Why did you even buy us if......you know what, never mind. No, we make strategy farce games and story driven narratives." EA:"Ya.......about that.......do you think you could start working on movie licence RPG's?" Bulllfrog: "What? What the fuck is wrong with you? Fuck it, fine, I have a mortgage to pay." 6 months later....... EA:"Soooooooo.....are you done that game yet?" Bullfrog:"WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK!?!?!?" EA:"Ya.......about that........you're all fired."
I think a better reference for the combat mechanics is sekiro specifically. I was replaying bloodborne at the same time I played fallen order, and woo-boy the priorities are different. The parry-deathblow mechanoc is an obvious parallel, and they even do the death from above instant kill move. And of course, structurally they have a lot more in common, since they both rely on a main weapon augmented by several smaller, resource-driven powers to expand the combat.
I greatly enjoy sequel trilogies like the Thrawn Trilogy and other pre-Disney Star Wars content and books. Wish that Disney didn't throw it all away when they acquired the property as I doubt we'll see anything of the original Expanded Universe in game (or movie) form. If true, it's one of the biggest missed opportunities and loss.
They already brought Thrawn back and confirmed the existence of Darth Revan so they are definitely pulling the elements of the EU that they like into the new canon.
@@thomas9208 The question with that is if they are intending to stay true to the source material they do use or, similar to with Palpatine, arguably bring them back to uplift Rey or some other Disney-made hero. Not everyone likes Revan in the Drew Karpyshyn books or SWTOR in general and the defeat of Thrawn might have been handled differently than it had in Rebels (at least I think it was Rebels). Not having played SWTOR I can't say much about that but I greatly enjoyed KOTOR1 and 2 in particular. Perhaps that's the problem with a 40 year property though, you're bound to make some people unhappy when revisiting characters rather than making completely new ones in their own setting.
@@thomas9208 The person that is managing the property of the films have no clue or care about any of the extended lore, although they do know about it which is why Kylo's outfit is strongly inspired by Revan because its an awesome look to go too waste. TLJ has effectively killed off any surviving force users from the clone wars which is canon. And gives no chance of any EU force users that survived order 66 because Vader in canon comics is currently killing them all.
@@thomas9208 but hey. If Revan is canon that gives me hope. Disney's trilogy strongly needs to be rewritten though, the first film in the trilogy needs to be fixed up a bit but its still a good film.
Seeing the Death Star destruction from the perspective of the Imperials it's kind of heartbreaking. Imagine the capital ship, the symbol of the Empires power, the Empire that you gave you're life to serve, along with the it's great leader The Emperor, is just obliterated in front of you just as you were about to crush the Rebellion. It would be crushing to say the least.
Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order is the Star Wars of games is the best thesis for the game I've heard. Yeah it's not as good as the games it's taking inspiration from. It's not going to be the next Breath of the Wild. But it's still a buffet of all the tropes of the last decade, for better or worse, and it's fitting that it came out in 2019. The only original thing was the story but it feels like the writers are playing a game when it comes to original Star Wars story: How long can we go without referencing the original trilogy?
After that entire video, I still want to play a rogue squadron like game. That may be anathema to the entire point of this video but I still want to fly a space ship in space. Don't know what that means but there it is.
freelancer is a very good space ship game. it's old tho, and I don't remember if it's abandonware or just hard to get, but it's fun and has an actual interesting story. I remember fondly the hard dogfighting between military ships and cruisers and just chugging some nukes on the hull and blowing them apart. so much fun
"Look, it's the Millennium Falcon!" How can you tell? It's a mass produced ship decades out of date. Used for crime that requires you to not stick out. It's like if I showed up in a Trabant and some git started fanboying how it's the car of the infamous Erich Mielke. *Fucking what?* Fanboys are dreadful writers that only serve to dismantle good worldbuilding.
Actually, Fallen Order's combat is based on Sekiro's combat. I know that Sekiro is still a souls-like, but if you want to look at one specific title, that is Sekiro.
I've been really obsessed with disney's star wars. Its just kind of tragic in this fascinating an unintentional way. The ouroboros comparison seemed apt. Because the universe is trapped in a cycle where the same actions seem to repeat themselves through the same sort of characters. The only difference is the world just seems a little more worn down each time a little worse. I mean by the new trilogy there isnt even a sense that anyone is running the galaxy anymore. Theres just two fractured remnants of two old orders duking it out with whatever they can scrap together. It's like the cycle caused by the linking of the fire in dark souls but completely unintentional. It's so weird
Just gonna point out that the Metroidvania game design IS actually very reminiscent of the original Dark Souls, something the series abandoned in favor of combat. Rogue Squadron 3 had an AT-AT hijack sequence(which was terrible.)
Regarding the subject of influences, A New Hope was successful because it cribbed from lesser works. No one, then or now, thought that Flash Gordon serials were classics. But Fallen Order is lifting elements from some of the most successful contemporary games that there are. So it can't help but feel derivative.
Great video man, and yeah. The glut of Star Wars games that have existed, whether directly based on a film or simply an OC of some brave designers who wanted to try something new or do something interesting with the setting, has made Star Wars as a universe: samey. Redundant and repetitive with iconography and associated imagery which by themselves are not bad, just old hat. Something different is probably going to be the direction that a few new Star Wars games are going to take in the wake of Fallen Order. I'd wager we'd see more "The Mandalorian" styled content: taking known aspects of the world and exploring a day in the life. Expanding on the known lore and hopefully contributing new lore in lieu of KOTOR.
Great Video. As "discourse" goes Star Wars is my least favorite internet discussion topic. I do not know what it is within fandom that makes Stars Wars particularly noxious but I found it exhausting long before The Last Jedi. Might check out Jedi Fallen Order during a sale.
Respect your material, and it will shine despite its flaws. Don't respect your material, and that initial shine will cloud from neglect no matter how strong the foundation was.
During the times we didn't have the movies, some games made the slow evolution past the call backs from the original trilogy. The new trilogy made the same mistakes of feeding nostalgia instead of looking at the development process games like fallen order underwent. Eventually future SW properties will evolve in the same way. SW will always have elements of nostalgia at it's core tough. The setting feels time locked even with the progression the new trilogy tried to implement. This is why it's easier to look backwards to developing Old Republic era IPs than forward past TROS properties> The whole universe feels like it's in a hermetically sealed bubble of arrested development.
@@shadowstrider8295 it was a secret meeting on a rainy night between the big wigs at EA and Disney. They were trying to figure out a way to bring the Star Wars IP into the future to be progressive. That's when it happened... Gingers are under represented in games and Star Wars said one EA suit. The rest is history
Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order definitely shares the difficulty and combat from the Dark Souls games. However, Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order is its own thing and it has its own characters and universe. The story is one of the best that I’ve come across in a video game. It even rivals some of the best Star Wars movies in terms of its narrative. Honestly, its the best Star Wars game that Ive played since Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2 and it even surpasses them in terms of quality. Cal Kestis is a very likeable character and he was portrayed really well by Gotham actor Cameron Monaghan. Combat itself is fast paced and challenging. The numerous skills are fun to utilize. The game has gorgeous visuals. The various planets that you visit are lush and vibrant. Animations are smooth. Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order makes the player feel like a Jedi more than any prior Star Wars game that came before it. Of course, BD-1 is the most adorable droid companion that I’ve had the pleasure of having on my side. He can display a map via holographic display, light up dark areas via flashlight, heal Cal’s health, overload electrical panels, etc.. As great as Fallen Order is, there are two issues that I have with it. First of all, the platforming, which consists of a lot of sliding, jumping and wall running is finicky and frustrating at times. Second, the puzzles, which mostly consist of placing giant spheres onto platforms feels a bit out of place in a Star Wars game. Having said that, Fallen Order is still a solid experience, despite those two issues. Perhaps, with the game’s success and with The Mandalorian’s success, that maybe, people have regained their trust in Star Wars and they’ve re-ignited their passion for the Star Wars franchise. Otherwise, thanks for the great video. As always, I really appreciate the hard work. By the way, Happy New Year!
I think the main difference with Fallen Order's inspirations with A New Hope's is that most of A New Hope's inspirations were notably older than the movie or very alien for the average person (The average person at the time wouldn't be too aware of Kurosawa's films) while most Fallen Order's inspirations are present in a lot of games or even ubiquitous in the current video game generation. Not saying that it's a bad game due to this but it certainly feels derivative while A New Hope managed to feel fresh despite of all the inspiration it was taken from other sources.
Watch Avengers Age of Ultron trailers, i mean all of em. Congratulations you just saved your money because you saw 70% percent of the film. I only watch a teaser and thats it since then
With regards to Iden Versio, I didn't think it that bad when she only began having doubts about the Empire when it was her own planet being destroyed and her own father doing it, but when she later says something like "The Empire wouldn't do this". Like come on, you'd think an Imperial black ops unit commander would know more than most about what the Empire is willing to do.
"That's not a spoiler because it was in the commercials." There are several problems with that statement. More and more people intentionally avoid watching ads or trailers because studios can't seem to restrain themselves so they put big plot reveals in the trailer to create hype. It's also why people are avoiding watching film or game reviews because they often contain spoilers, though usually (but not always) with a warning beforehand. I mean, sure, nobody was surprised that Darth Vader would show up in a Star Wars game, but I'm just saying that in general just because something is revealed in marketing material doesn't mean that thing is common knowledge.
Honestly, I thought this was kinda a big part of what made the old Battlefronts so popular to begin with. Sure you had loads of fan-service like playing Vader, to stringing up the legs of an AT-AT, but at its core it was taking this imaginative world of lasers and crazy 4-legged tanks and giving you the keys to just go live it out as one of the common grunts. Likewise, a lot of people liked the newer stories and developments in the RPGs, so naturally, yes people love Mandalorian and Fallen Order more than the nostalgia rehash of Force Awakens and its worsening sequels.
That boi has got to stop holding his lightsaber, activated, during casual conversation. Also, how are those people he's talking to comfortable standing so close to that thing. Those things don't come with friendly fire failsafes, guys!
I was bummed to hear, after I had finished the game, that Vader was in the trailer. A coworker asked if the Vader fight was at the end and I tried to play it cool like "whaaaaaat, Vader?!" because I thought it was a rad surprise. He said he'd seen it in the trailer and assumed it happened eventually. I could be wrong, but I doubt the addition of Vader was the final straw that convinced people to buy it. I mean... I was in at lightsabers.
The closest I get to a disagreement is that Vader is used in Rebels as this looming BBEG in the series, and I felt like drawing from Clone Wars and Rebels as Fallen Order does, it made a lot of sense for him to be there. The reason it's not a disagreement is that I felt like Vader was in Rebels for basically that reason: because Vader is iconic Star Wars.
12:40 Yeah, my issue with Fallen Order is how stiffly modal it is. It consists of of designated Dark Souls sections and Uncharted sections and Prince of Persia sections and their mechanics don't interact. It's as if George Lucas had created Star Wars by literally just splicing together clips from other media unaltered, _Star Wars Without Star Wars_ style.
@@FS_Scott He did that for the model shots because he based a lot of those quick, specific shots on those scenes. The vast majority of the movie was not like that at all.
Yeah, RedLetterMedia was great and all, but much of their latest criticism is shallow and just unfunny at this point. You could say... Endless Trash!!!
I agree, let’s put the past behind us. If I never run into episodes 7-9 and the 2 retcons in a game it will be too soon. As to referential games, give me a direct remaster (not a re-do) of the xwing series and I’ll be happy.
Battlefront 2 rightly got massive criticism for the monetization (though battlefront 1 was bad too in a different way). That said, I’m moreso fascinated on how much visually superior the 2015 game is to the 2017, even if there’s so much more content
I’m very surprised you didn’t mention the non-MMO KOTOR games. They are exactly what I want in regards to exploring Star Wars independent from the film settings.
You pretty much explained perfectly why the new sequels and the two other SW films failed -- they were simply extra. The Star Wars story from the original trilogy is very simplistic and limited in scope, you can only do so much with it before people start rejecting it outright. But this is a Disney franchise we're talking about, and Disney's gotta Disney. I don't expect that they'll expand the SW film universe in any meaningful way beyond some minor shows if how they work with their pre-SW IP is an indicator. They'll just rehash the same old story over and over again, but this time for "the new generation".
Jedi Fallen Order is very much like the rebooted Tomb Raider games. You have the Metroidvania need to acquire new items/abilities to progress. Semi-linear levels somewhat open to exploration but having a scripted path through them. A narrative about digging through the remains of ancient civilization and puzzles taking place in old tombs.
Fallen Order does seem like the most interesting star wars game in a long time, I hadn't realised why that was until you articulated it so well. If I did have to have a star wars game covering an existing era, I would much rather it be from the Clone Wars era as I absolutely love both versions of the Clone Wars animated show, but I also feel it has a lot of untapped potential. An RTS game by the same studious that made the Likes of C&C3 with the modern Frostbite Engine would be a treat, at least I would hope so! However, EA seems to impatient to create something like that again after what happened to C&C Generals 2 (Aka the reboot) and i'm not sure what other kind of title I would want about about an intergalactic conflict, but I'm sure some amazing single player games could be made too; Fallen Order proves that.
Well Peak Star Wars is about all for the "professional" entertainment. But it is the lower budget less hype stuff that I find the most value in Star Wars, as for games that would be the modding community. Empire At War just got a remake mod. So the future of worthwhile starwars now lies in the fans and not with the marketers. It is a shame that most businesses look at user and fan generated content and think of it as competition to their "potential" profits and either steal it, or ban it.
The Knights of the Old Republic games already did all these things that Fallen Order does. It's more of a return to creating original stories out of the Star Wars universe, it's not like Fallen Order is doing something new entirely. Id even argue KOTOR is more original in its design aswell.
I would really love it if you did a video on the rise and fall of Active Worlds. I still don't know exactly why that game is a graveyard. Playing it with my friends was one of the best parts of my childhood. My brother recently mentioned it to be and i cannot believe i forgot about it. What ever happened to that wonderful world?
11:19 probably my most unpopular gaming opinion is that dark souls is a metroid vania, but most people don't consider it as such because the paths you unlock are done purely narratively whereas zelda games give you a mechanical method. the only mechanical connection to the new paths is having to beat harder enemies to get there, if the lord vessel gave you a dodge roll that damaged armor AND let you roll through the orange fog gates then it would be more apparent. play dark souls and sekiro back to back and you'll see the full evolution.
13:33 also i'm like 85% sure that the hodge podge of other game ideas is not an intentional nod to the hodge podge of tropes that was ep 4. it al feels very "studio mandate" ey.
I clapped when I saw Darth Vader! Lol nah but fallen order probably has like you said the smartest use of SW iconography to do something similar but different. Now imagine a Star Wars Breaking Bad type story about the spice trade and drug rings, that’d be interesting.
Drawing parallels between Fallen Order's genre mishmash and A New Hope's is some S-tier analysis
High praise from ya boi Jacob here. Will we be getting a Star Wars video from yourself my good man?
Oh hey, it’s depression and sadness analysis man! Love your videos.
Hello Gelly
Glad to see my two favorite "critics" watch each other
Is it?
I loved how the Kotor games used their own score. It gave them a distinct feel from other star wars media, which was good because the games were set in a distinctly different time in star wars.
And amazing scores at that
The Old Republic as it has evolved is really interesting because it kind of does some of what he's talking about here, but the iconography, while feeling very Star Wars, is its own. So instead of callbacks to Luke and co. the mmo draws on Revan's story, etc.
@@Carblesnarky They do kinda still do it to a degree though with stuff like how the Republic soldiers in KotOR 1 and 2 look like Rebel soldiers and Clone Troopers in TOR. Unlike say how the Sith Troopers are clearly based off of Stormtroopers but also really distinct and different from them in their design.
"The ship is very Mass Effect inspired"
The Normdandy is in turn inspired by the Ebonhawk from KOTOR... this is a circle
Dharma Bellamkonda It’s like poetry, it rhymes.
Video games... Are a flat circle.
Please, don't edit the typo. Norm Dandy is a much better name than Normandy.
Thank you. When he said that, I pictured Darth Revan crying in the background...
Those are both from bioware games.
It's strange how Star Wars is a series so overburdened with the weight of its accidental success that it has completely forgotten how storytelling works.
Amy Dentata
More like deliberately put to the fire every aspect that knew how storytelling works.
Kudos on working the words "Jizz Music" into the script for this one
Right up there with "Palpa-time"
Jizz Music and Midichlorians are 2 things to be forever erased from canon...and memory🤦♂️
@@technologic21 But those are cool
I'm so mad that he reminded me about it. I'd completely forgotten that the music genre is literally called "jizz"
True.
In regards to the Vader bit, I liked it for reasons other than "ayyy it's Vader!". It demonstrated that for as strong as Cal has become, for all that he's achieved, he's still barely strong enough to FEND OFF Darth Vader. If anything, the Vader pursuit sequence was a bit of a slasher horror moment, almost a memento mori meant to humble the player.
GmodPlusWoW Agreed- it’s a game version of the hallway fight from Rogue One. Vader’s practically a boogeyman here, this unstoppable force of nature who’s probably not even trying while you’re fleeing for your life. The guy literally fights Cal and Cera with one hand, which just shows how low everything you’ve fought in the game compares to him power-wise
That music from the title sequence is from a Mongolian metal throat singing band called The Hu! It's called "Black Thunder".
I was going to comment this! "Alien" metal xD
That music is reminiscent of the music at Maz Kanata's in The Force Awakens.
While they used the same song, I believe that they did change the lyrics to be a fictional language.
@@combly7 Nope. That's just Mongolian.
Fuck yeah; i discovered them through Rammstein.
So much this.
I'm not entirely burnt out on star wars, that's like saying "I'm burnt out on steampunk" or "I'm burnt out on medieval fantasy". I'm done with the characters and events of the original trilogy, I just wish Disney and EA were too. That's why I actually like the mandalorian, it's star wars without the endless cameos and references. Just a space-western set in the universe.
One of the things I really like about rebels: there aren't too many, and the ones that exist are actually significant beyond being fan service.
Except for the entirety of the fifth episode. Hopefully they got it all out of their system with that one.
I just want Yakuza except Kamurocho is a random spaceport city and Kiryu is a Twi'lek.
Disney and EA will never be done with the OT. It's too profitable. So they'll keep dipping into the OT as long as it makes money and honestly, if we're talking about new stories, the Old EU had that in abundance with stories entirely disconnected from the films. Look up the Legacy Era for more or Dark Horse's excellent run of KOTOR comics.
Amen brotha
The fact that it took almost a decade to get an original Star Wars game is so damning. For EA? For Disney? Maybe, for all of us?
Statistically, it's not us driving these companies behavior. We care about Star Wars, and video games as a medium, much more than the average consumers. We're in the distinct minority, and it shows.
@@adams3627 true
Original?
@@1r0zz I laughed when I seen that as well. As long as EA holds onto Star Wars we will never see an original or inspired game from the franchise ever again. Just more of what the drones play.
@@deadrebelstorage779
It's like people got so used to mediocrity that it became how games are made...
This game design is pretty much "what this genre is supposed to be"; like Ubisoft robot made games(last assassins creed makes AC:Unity a wonder of game design)...
There's climbing because god of war/uncharted had climbing.
There's hard checkpoints because dark souls.
Heck, the story characters probably exist there for political reasons more than narrative reasons!
Excuse me, Vader is not “a random space wizard.”
He’s a “random space warlock.”
Huh?
Nah! He's more of a random space general.
He is a random space Blackguard / Oathbreker.
Star Wars shouldn't be treated like a very preciously guarded set of specific stories....that's not what makes it so memorable. It's memorable because it's a SETTING, like medieval fantasy or steampunk. It's a set of tropes, sounds, and ideas that can be used to tell an infinite number of stories.
The entire conceit of Lucas' dedication to Joseph Campbell was to say that great stories are like great food: Anyone can do it if they just follow the recipe. Luke is generic to an almost laughable degree, so is Han. It was never meant to be held up as the great paragon of character studies that cannot be examined, changed, or challenged. It was just a super fun space movie with laser swords and talking robots. All I want is for everyone to stop pretending Star Wars is serious and just have fun with it again!
This was why I liked The Mandalorian so much more than the new trilogy. More than anything else in a while, it really felt part of the Star Wars universe. I want less epic Skywalker and Palpatine bloodlines, and more scum and villainy.
@@TehVulpez Agreed. I have many thoughts on the sequels, but my favorite recent Star Wars stuff has been the CG shows, Mandalorian, and Rogue One - because you can watch them without any prior knowledge and still enjoy yourself.
It doesn't matter what the force is, how lightsabers work, or why imperial stormtroopers have bad aim. All that matters is that we want this thing, the bad guys won't let us have it, and we're gonna resolve that sht with lasers and magic!
I will happily have fun with Star Wars again if everyone admits Star Wars was always bad except for Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back.
It's Forgotten Realms in space
In that regard, it's almost like a sci-fi Dungeons & Dragons. Especially since Star Wars has many RPGs, be they pen-and-paper or video game.
I agree with your sentiment about Fallen Order's smart use of the Star Wars Iconography without being all
o/` "STAAAR WAAARS,
HEY THIS IS STAAAR WARS,
TOLD YA IT'S STAAAR WARS,
DID YOU GET IT YET?" o/`
This is kind of why I love KOTOR II so much despite its horrendous unfinished bugginess. It takes (tonally similar to the movies) KOTOR I and uses that established world to do some very very interesting exploration of the setting. It's telling that there isn't even really a war, just a bunch of murky agendas tearing apart a Republic that's crumbling *even though it won the wars*. It is a personal journey for the project and saving the galaxy is basically an afterthought. Absolutely my favorite piece of Star Wars media.
KOTOR was written by Star Wars fans who didn't feel the need to point out that they're Star Wars fans. Same with The Mandalorian. You can tell they're fans because of their attention to thematic details.
Both those properties are their own stories with the iconography and theme being used for setting, background and atmosphere.
That's actually what I really hate about the new movies. They spend too much time proving to us that they're actual Star Wars fans with the stories being about being Star Wars stories.
Also I think KOTOR 2 might be too deconstructive for Disney's plans.
@@psychowordsmith I think you're right about KotOR 2. I mean, Kreia labelled *The Force itself,* as her enemy. She laid the blame of all the galaxy's atrocities at it's feet, and if we really examine what: "The Will of the Force" is, we get a singlular conclusion(metatextually):
Us, and our need to see more Star *WARS.* That desire drives their blood fueled universe into existence, and into endless conflict with itself. We are the heartless ambition of The Force, to see more conflict, more devastation, and more unlikely heroes rise to the challenge and thus validate our own sense of morality.
The writer's may give the universe shape, but it's our will to witness Star Wars that incentivizes writer's to conjure up more trouble for the universe's inhabitants. Star War's writers are it's pantheon of gods, and we the fans, are the universe's inspiration, and devil tempting them into further chaos and disrepair!
@@psychowordsmith I'd totally love to see an intertextual reason given for the metatextual narrative's existence. Something like: "The Force is using the wars of Star Wars, to perfect itself. Ultimately, it's trying to make a perfect and everlasting good, but such a project requires the universe to be built up and burned down a countless number of times to forge perfection."
In this way, the Will of The Force is good, and it reflects our desire to see good ultimately triumph; but it also describes how we selfishly use these imaginary people's lives to make ourselves into better people. It also gives villain's like Kreia a deep and sympathetic motivation, and depending on how you read the situation, Kreia's: "freedom from The Force" may actually be a universe ending catastrophe; but she simply doesn't know.
We've never had an existence ending threat in Star Wars, and I think this could be an interesting path to bring a thoughtful and lore friendly one to Star Wars.
@@thesurvivorssanctuary6561 That's actually very true. Never considered it like that.
.
.
.
I'll have whatever your having.
@@thesurvivorssanctuary6561 It's was an awesome _idea_ that was entirely absent from the actual plot, probably because they were spinning too many plates and the idiotic "Force Wound" RPG meta-commentary nonsense was their top priority.
I remember saying basically all of this to anyone who would listen in 2012 and no one listened. I said that the worst thing they could do is have this be about the original trio or their kids. everyone looked at me like I was crazy. it's very tiring being right so damn often.
I’d argue that they earn the Vader cameo at the end by otherwise not including main movie iconography.
Matthew Colville put it best when he said "I want a new star wars movie, not a new movie _about_ star wars"
And from this review I get the distinct impression that Vader (and maybe other characters from the franchise) should've been secret, optional bosses, a la Data Bossfights in Kingdom Hearts.
when you called fallen order a mosaic with negative connotation, mosaics are done purposefully as a positive. for negative connotation, theres mishmash and hodgepodge
"no it's not a spoiler because they put that in the trailer" -- they included a short picture of him looking at the camera. they didn't reveal that the game leads up to a duel with him
i mean, they didn't directly say "you fight darth vader at the end!" but it's kinda implied that you atleast fight him at some point
@Yo Momma i never watched the trailers so yeah it is a spoiler and id have been pissed if somebody spoiled it for me cuz it was a cool moment i didnt expect
@Yo Momma You mean aside from the fact that Vader was the very first sequence in Force Awakens?
I stumbled across this video in my recommended feed, and I honestly had no clue what angle your were going to take from the title. I had a slight fear that it would be yet another video lambasting new Star Wars (because we don't have enough of that already). So color me pleasantly surprised when it turned out to be primarily focused on the video games and brought attention to something I was subconsciously or mildly aware of, but never heavily considered until now: the obsession with the iconography of the original trilogy. I actually noticed recently that Disney has only been using iconography from the original trilogy and sequel trilogy for their marketing and other things. The most apparent example in recent memory being the new flashy Star Wars intro made for The Mandalorian only showing characters from the original and sequel trilogies. Not a single prequel character was there (R2 and 3PO don't count as they are in almost everything). That kind of annoyed me.
TL; DR - I half-expected another video about how Disney is making Star Wars worse, or something. Instead, I gained a new perspective on the Star Wars franchise as a whole, both old and new; and its fixation with iconography.
This was honestly a breath of fresh air for me, so thank you.
The topic of iconography in Star Wars is an interesting one. There's been an over reliance on it even before the Disney stuff and it's past the point of getting old but at the same time I don't think the series needs to completely ditch the old stuff. It's not like we can never use Vader or the Millennium Falcon in a new Star Wars story ever again but if they are going to show up they need to serve a purpose past "Oh look it's that thing I remember and liked from before!" The Mandalorian is a good example, Baby Yoda is a clear use of familiar imagery yet it provides a new twist that lets it stand on it's own.
@@koifish835 Absolutely, we shouldn't abandon all of the old iconography, just tone it down a bit --or a lot, depending on the context.
Missing from all this discussion is how good the Marvel comic series have been in the last few years. Of course there is purely iconographic content, but there are excellent side characters becoming their own thing and doing it extremely well while being a few steps removed from the core "Star Warsy" heroes. Doctor Aphra is probably the best one, and it doesn't even share the heavy tone of more regular SW story lines.
I'm watching with interest to see where SW goes in the next few years, now that the sequel trilogy is done. I'm hoping for an organic expansion outward into the galaxy. All of this is under the watchful eye of the Lucasfilm Story Group, who gatekeep any new story lines, as it all has to fit in somehow.
@@rarewhiteape Oh yeah I had forgotten about the comics so im glad someone brought them up. I haven't read a ton of the Marvel comics mostly just the Darth Vader ones but everything I've seen has been nice.
@@koifish835 The DV comics are some of my favourite. Have you read the story covering the construction of his fortress on Mustafar? It's amazing. His dedication to the dark side is something to behold.
When I watched the mandalorian I was glad that it was a story in the star wars universe that had no relation with the main characters from the movies, just as you describe the game to be. Sure, the baby yoda thing helps to invoke the old movies, but still. Hope they keep making stories like those, because I love its universe.
I haven't even seen the show yet. But they could have legit token advantage of force users that aren't into the Sith or Jedi. People need to remember those are just clans trying to keep each other in check regardless of the consequences which eventually led to their down fall.
A force using bounty hunter with light sabers and blasters is awesome to see.
Haha, Luke Skywalker go brrrr
I think Fallen Order used Vader perfectly. The whole final stage is a power trip until Vader comes to remind you of the Empire's true power. Trilla has been towering over you the whole game and when you finally beat her she's but an ant compared to Vader. By the time the cutscene ends and you're facing Vader i was like "guess this is where i die" and that's exactly what Vader represents, fear.
Nothing has ever made me feel more nostalgic than that door sound at 14:20
I would say that the intro reminds me way more of a guardians of the galaxy intro thing actually, this is a good thing.
Ironically, they way that fallen order was structured in terms of it skimping on rethreading old ground was the thing that made me really become invested in the game and probably like it more than the ones that did
Thank you for hitting the nail on the head as to why Star Wars isn't so much bad as it is just plain exhausting.
All they seem to want to do is just go "HEY LOOK AT THIS THING FROM STAR WARS AND LOOK OVER THERE THAT'S A COOL PART OF STAR WARS RIGHT?" to the point of ad nauseum.
I'm a little disappointed that you didn't go into further detail on the vast mechanical improvements Battlefront II made over its predecessor, but this is a really well made video. Analyzing the patchwork inspirations that helped create A New Hope and Jedi Fallen Order was really clever ^_^
They should have gone one step further and not used the classic stormtroopers armor, but a clone-empire hybrid armor showing the transition
they'll issue new armour all at once, perhaps have them issuing the new guns and then the armour or something
@@pnutz_2 it's dumb and unrealistic lore wise, it's much more interesting to have a transition period
wile123456 I always got the impression that the transition was the phase one clone troopers to phase 2 where they look closer to stormtroopers, and then when the republic falls the empire puts them all in the standard stormtrooper outfit to rip away the personality of the variety of clone outfits and make everything more uniform.
wile123456 basically I think it tracks even though I haven’t played the game so I don’t know how fast the transition is.
@@MichaelMcCallister097 yes I get the symbolism, but realistically speaking, throwing everything away in the first few years doesn't make sense.
The videos point could have been even stronger if they avoided the common stormtroper iconography and made their own unique designs instead
*Added to Documentary playlist
Dude, fantastic job.
Ahhh, that HU band soundtrack... GIVE IT TO ME.
Your montage of classic SW games with characters and set pieces from the movies reminded me of the reason I liked KotOR (the original) so much, same recognizable universe but with new content
Except from the fact that Star Wars games are way too Jedi-infested these days, it's great to see the franchise alive and well.
Still waiting for another X-Wing series game, though.
To be fair... There were only the original star wars battlefront, Star Wars Republic Commando, Star Wars Battlefront I EA (ironically enough) that tried to move on from the Jedi. (Ignoring all the flight simulators and Starship Arcade shooters)
@@AAhmou Yeah, ignoring all the games without Jedi, there weren't many games without Jedi.
The games with Jedi were also built around them, they weren't shoehorned in like in Battlefront 2 or SW Galaxies.
Tbf in the battlefront games you largely play as normal soldiers so that was a good pick even if EA tried their damndest to ruin it.
@safe-keeper1042 How did you feel about Squadrons?
i think in some ways it's actually better that fallen order doesn't have to try to influence games the way star wars influenced movies. that's an impossibly huge task for something that is just a spinoff of an existing franchise. by being just a video game that isn't trying to do too much, it can have its own unique flavor even in the shadow of star wars. if there's any way i want fallen order to influence other games, it's to make games that are just "clones" of other games still have their own identity
_"The best way to pursue happiness is to help other people. Nothing else will make you happier."_
*~ George Lucas*
Help other people make you a billionaire. Yeeaah!
@@Alianger I mean George Lucas along with other members of his class at USC (e.g. Spielberg, John Millius) helped each other a lot, so it doesn't surprise me that he feels that helping his friends made him as happy ore moreso as making his own films (and indeed, that bringing his friends in and talking to them about his movies helped them become better movies).
That’s the reason I love KOTOR. Sure it has some iconography but it essentially builds its own universe
Things like Jedi Fallen Order and The Mandalorian give me hope that the future of Star Wars can actually be at least somewhat new and interesting instead of a complete retread of things that came before. Despite how much I didn't like Rise of Skywalker and how mixed the Disney-era movies have been in general I'm still looking forward to what comes next. Ideally now that the Skywalker Saga is over the door is open for the movies and franchise as a whole to move on.
This is literally the first time I've been interested in the Star Wars game in my life, and it was mainly sparked by this video. Well done!
Augh, now I've gotta go dig up a supercut of Ton Kane's Clone Wars voice...crawls? The thing at the beginning of the episode where he basically narrates an opening crawl. I love them.
I'm also tired of not necessarily Star Wars, but Star Wars retreading itself. Fallen Order hit for me the same way that Republic Commando or Rogue One hit, even if those are arguably more "Star Wars-y" titles than Fallen Order: they're at their best when they're barely about Star Wars. There's nary a lightsaber in Republic Commando or Rogue One (except for that one part), and it's refreshing to see the setting used to explore the conflicts between intergalactic dynasties instead of the personal drama of Chosen One space wizards. Fallen Order might be tied to those lightsabers and space wizards but it's still really fun to explore the setting in original ways. Thanks for making this!
I remember watching that video on Kyle Kallgren's channel. Fascinating and captivating. Cool to see it getting shouted out here.
I dunno, at this point I think The Millennium Falcon needs to make a cameo in every Star Wars anything.
I was just rewatching your outer wilds videos last night and was wondering when the next Signal was coming. Got to have it with coffee this morning. Good start to the day!
The closing statement here pretty much sums up why I have not - and will not - watch Rise of Skywalker. Returning the franchise to JJ Abrams was the wrong move and the path paved by Rian Johnson was the one Star Wars should have followed.
EA: "Soooooo......we bought your company. Do you make any FPS?"
Bullfrog: "What? Why did you even buy us if......you know what, never mind. No, we make strategy farce games and story driven narratives."
EA:"Ya.......about that.......do you think you could start working on movie licence RPG's?"
Bulllfrog: "What? What the fuck is wrong with you? Fuck it, fine, I have a mortgage to pay."
6 months later.......
EA:"Soooooooo.....are you done that game yet?"
Bullfrog:"WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK!?!?!?"
EA:"Ya.......about that........you're all fired."
This Video explains why I love Kotor. Kotor is it's own thing. Doesn't need the OT to sell it.
I think a better reference for the combat mechanics is sekiro specifically. I was replaying bloodborne at the same time I played fallen order, and woo-boy the priorities are different. The parry-deathblow mechanoc is an obvious parallel, and they even do the death from above instant kill move. And of course, structurally they have a lot more in common, since they both rely on a main weapon augmented by several smaller, resource-driven powers to expand the combat.
I greatly enjoy sequel trilogies like the Thrawn Trilogy and other pre-Disney Star Wars content and books. Wish that Disney didn't throw it all away when they acquired the property as I doubt we'll see anything of the original Expanded Universe in game (or movie) form. If true, it's one of the biggest missed opportunities and loss.
They already brought Thrawn back and confirmed the existence of Darth Revan so they are definitely pulling the elements of the EU that they like into the new canon.
@@thomas9208 The question with that is if they are intending to stay true to the source material they do use or, similar to with Palpatine, arguably bring them back to uplift Rey or some other Disney-made hero. Not everyone likes Revan in the Drew Karpyshyn books or SWTOR in general and the defeat of Thrawn might have been handled differently than it had in Rebels (at least I think it was Rebels). Not having played SWTOR I can't say much about that but I greatly enjoyed KOTOR1 and 2 in particular.
Perhaps that's the problem with a 40 year property though, you're bound to make some people unhappy when revisiting characters rather than making completely new ones in their own setting.
@@thomas9208 The person that is managing the property of the films have no clue or care about any of the extended lore, although they do know about it which is why Kylo's outfit is strongly inspired by Revan because its an awesome look to go too waste.
TLJ has effectively killed off any surviving force users from the clone wars which is canon. And gives no chance of any EU force users that survived order 66 because Vader in canon comics is currently killing them all.
@@thomas9208 but hey. If Revan is canon that gives me hope. Disney's trilogy strongly needs to be rewritten though, the first film in the trilogy needs to be fixed up a bit but its still a good film.
Erran T'signio, Very good character name
Seeing the Death Star destruction from the perspective of the Imperials it's kind of heartbreaking.
Imagine the capital ship, the symbol of the Empires power, the Empire that you gave you're life to serve, along with the it's great leader The Emperor, is just obliterated in front of you just as you were about to crush the Rebellion. It would be crushing to say the least.
15:58 Thats probably the most succinct I've heard the sequel trilogy be explained
Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order is the Star Wars of games is the best thesis for the game I've heard. Yeah it's not as good as the games it's taking inspiration from. It's not going to be the next Breath of the Wild. But it's still a buffet of all the tropes of the last decade, for better or worse, and it's fitting that it came out in 2019.
The only original thing was the story but it feels like the writers are playing a game when it comes to original Star Wars story: How long can we go without referencing the original trilogy?
After that entire video, I still want to play a rogue squadron like game. That may be anathema to the entire point of this video but I still want to fly a space ship in space.
Don't know what that means but there it is.
freelancer is a very good space ship game. it's old tho, and I don't remember if it's abandonware or just hard to get, but it's fun and has an actual interesting story. I remember fondly the hard dogfighting between military ships and cruisers and just chugging some nukes on the hull and blowing them apart. so much fun
"Look, it's the Millennium Falcon!"
How can you tell? It's a mass produced ship decades out of date. Used for crime that requires you to not stick out. It's like if I showed up in a Trabant and some git started fanboying how it's the car of the infamous Erich Mielke. *Fucking what?* Fanboys are dreadful writers that only serve to dismantle good worldbuilding.
Actually, Fallen Order's combat is based on Sekiro's combat. I know that Sekiro is still a souls-like, but if you want to look at one specific title, that is Sekiro.
I've been really obsessed with disney's star wars. Its just kind of tragic in this fascinating an unintentional way. The ouroboros comparison seemed apt. Because the universe is trapped in a cycle where the same actions seem to repeat themselves through the same sort of characters. The only difference is the world just seems a little more worn down each time a little worse. I mean by the new trilogy there isnt even a sense that anyone is running the galaxy anymore. Theres just two fractured remnants of two old orders duking it out with whatever they can scrap together. It's like the cycle caused by the linking of the fire in dark souls but completely unintentional. It's so weird
Just gonna point out that the Metroidvania game design IS actually very reminiscent of the original Dark Souls, something the series abandoned in favor of combat. Rogue Squadron 3 had an AT-AT hijack sequence(which was terrible.)
Regarding the subject of influences, A New Hope was successful because it cribbed from lesser works. No one, then or now, thought that Flash Gordon serials were classics. But Fallen Order is lifting elements from some of the most successful contemporary games that there are. So it can't help but feel derivative.
Great video man, and yeah. The glut of Star Wars games that have existed, whether directly based on a film or simply an OC of some brave designers who wanted to try something new or do something interesting with the setting, has made Star Wars as a universe: samey. Redundant and repetitive with iconography and associated imagery which by themselves are not bad, just old hat.
Something different is probably going to be the direction that a few new Star Wars games are going to take in the wake of Fallen Order. I'd wager we'd see more "The Mandalorian" styled content: taking known aspects of the world and exploring a day in the life. Expanding on the known lore and hopefully contributing new lore in lieu of KOTOR.
Great Video. As "discourse" goes Star Wars is my least favorite internet discussion topic. I do not know what it is within fandom that makes Stars Wars particularly noxious but I found it exhausting long before The Last Jedi. Might check out Jedi Fallen Order during a sale.
Respect your material, and it will shine despite its flaws. Don't respect your material, and that initial shine will cloud from neglect no matter how strong the foundation was.
During the times we didn't have the movies, some games made the slow evolution past the call backs from the original trilogy. The new trilogy made the same mistakes of feeding nostalgia instead of looking at the development process games like fallen order underwent. Eventually future SW properties will evolve in the same way. SW will always have elements of nostalgia at it's core tough. The setting feels time locked even with the progression the new trilogy tried to implement. This is why it's easier to look backwards to developing Old Republic era IPs than forward past TROS properties> The whole universe feels like it's in a hermetically sealed bubble of arrested development.
The biggest risk EA took with the Star Wars IP was making one of the protagonist a ginger.
How?
@@shadowstrider8295 it was a secret meeting on a rainy night between the big wigs at EA and Disney. They were trying to figure out a way to bring the Star Wars IP into the future to be progressive. That's when it happened... Gingers are under represented in games and Star Wars said one EA suit. The rest is history
@@BubblegumCrash332 no like how was it a risk?
@@shadowstrider8295 did you ever watch Monty Python and The Holy Grail?
@@BubblegumCrash332 oh, okay.
Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order definitely shares the difficulty and combat from the Dark Souls games. However, Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order is its own thing and it has its own characters and universe. The story is one of the best that I’ve come across in a video game. It even rivals some of the best Star Wars movies in terms of its narrative. Honestly, its the best Star Wars game that Ive played since Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2 and it even surpasses them in terms of quality. Cal Kestis is a very likeable character and he was portrayed really well by Gotham actor Cameron Monaghan. Combat itself is fast paced and challenging. The numerous skills are fun to utilize. The game has gorgeous visuals. The various planets that you visit are lush and vibrant. Animations are smooth. Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order makes the player feel like a Jedi more than any prior Star Wars game that came before it. Of course, BD-1 is the most adorable droid companion that I’ve had the pleasure of having on my side. He can display a map via holographic display, light up dark areas via flashlight, heal Cal’s health, overload electrical panels, etc.. As great as Fallen Order is, there are two issues that I have with it. First of all, the platforming, which consists of a lot of sliding, jumping and wall running is finicky and frustrating at times. Second, the puzzles, which mostly consist of placing giant spheres onto platforms feels a bit out of place in a Star Wars game. Having said that, Fallen Order is still a solid experience, despite those two issues. Perhaps, with the game’s success and with The Mandalorian’s success, that maybe, people have regained their trust in Star Wars and they’ve re-ignited their passion for the Star Wars franchise. Otherwise, thanks for the great video. As always, I really appreciate the hard work. By the way, Happy New Year!
I think the main difference with Fallen Order's inspirations with A New Hope's is that most of A New Hope's inspirations were notably older than the movie or very alien for the average person (The average person at the time wouldn't be too aware of Kurosawa's films) while most Fallen Order's inspirations are present in a lot of games or even ubiquitous in the current video game generation. Not saying that it's a bad game due to this but it certainly feels derivative while A New Hope managed to feel fresh despite of all the inspiration it was taken from other sources.
'And no that's not a spoiler, they put it in the trailer' trailers are just spoilers though.
Watch Avengers Age of Ultron trailers, i mean all of em. Congratulations you just saved your money because you saw 70% percent of the film.
I only watch a teaser and thats it since then
With regards to Iden Versio, I didn't think it that bad when she only began having doubts about the Empire when it was her own planet being destroyed and her own father doing it, but when she later says something like "The Empire wouldn't do this".
Like come on, you'd think an Imperial black ops unit commander would know more than most about what the Empire is willing to do.
"That's not a spoiler because it was in the commercials."
There are several problems with that statement. More and more people intentionally avoid watching ads or trailers because studios can't seem to restrain themselves so they put big plot reveals in the trailer to create hype. It's also why people are avoiding watching film or game reviews because they often contain spoilers, though usually (but not always) with a warning beforehand.
I mean, sure, nobody was surprised that Darth Vader would show up in a Star Wars game, but I'm just saying that in general just because something is revealed in marketing material doesn't mean that thing is common knowledge.
Have to note that if you get the Vadar scene without knowing, HOLY SHIT does it hit! :D
Yeah, it would have been really cool if Chris had let me experience it instead of just dropping it without warning.
Breaking my "No Star Wars Content" fast for this.
16:50 I have never heard someone pronounce it "Pal-Pa-Tyne"
George from Superbunnyhop did it in his MGS3 Close-up.
It sounds so gross to hear
Honestly, I thought this was kinda a big part of what made the old Battlefronts so popular to begin with. Sure you had loads of fan-service like playing Vader, to stringing up the legs of an AT-AT, but at its core it was taking this imaginative world of lasers and crazy 4-legged tanks and giving you the keys to just go live it out as one of the common grunts. Likewise, a lot of people liked the newer stories and developments in the RPGs, so naturally, yes people love Mandalorian and Fallen Order more than the nostalgia rehash of Force Awakens and its worsening sequels.
You got me at the midi from X-Wing. 😍
That boi has got to stop holding his lightsaber, activated, during casual conversation. Also, how are those people he's talking to comfortable standing so close to that thing. Those things don't come with friendly fire failsafes, guys!
Lovely video, thanks Chris!
They canonized a lot in the new movie. I like the yellow lightsaber.
I was bummed to hear, after I had finished the game, that Vader was in the trailer. A coworker asked if the Vader fight was at the end and I tried to play it cool like "whaaaaaat, Vader?!" because I thought it was a rad surprise. He said he'd seen it in the trailer and assumed it happened eventually. I could be wrong, but I doubt the addition of Vader was the final straw that convinced people to buy it. I mean... I was in at lightsabers.
The closest I get to a disagreement is that Vader is used in Rebels as this looming BBEG in the series, and I felt like drawing from Clone Wars and Rebels as Fallen Order does, it made a lot of sense for him to be there.
The reason it's not a disagreement is that I felt like Vader was in Rebels for basically that reason: because Vader is iconic Star Wars.
12:40 Yeah, my issue with Fallen Order is how stiffly modal it is.
It consists of of designated Dark Souls sections and Uncharted sections and Prince of Persia sections and their mechanics don't interact. It's as if George Lucas had created Star Wars by literally just splicing together clips from other media unaltered, _Star Wars Without Star Wars_ style.
george did that.
No really, workprints spliced in 'dambusters' for all the unfinished model shots.
@@FS_Scott He did that for the model shots because he based a lot of those quick, specific shots on those scenes. The vast majority of the movie was not like that at all.
I CLAPPED WHEN I SAW THE AT-AT'S!!
I KNOW WHAT THAT IS!!!!!
Yeah, RedLetterMedia was great and all, but much of their latest criticism is shallow and just unfunny at this point. You could say... Endless Trash!!!
@@TheArtkaw
I was honestly never a fan of RedLetterMedia, but that intro for their Rogue One review is meme-worthy.
IT BROKE NEW GROUND
Ah perfect, I just finished the mandalorian
I agree, let’s put the past behind us. If I never run into episodes 7-9 and the 2 retcons in a game it will be too soon.
As to referential games, give me a direct remaster (not a re-do) of the xwing series and I’ll be happy.
the SWTA mod for Total Annihilation was the best strategic star wars game ever made. and of course shut down because it was made by fans.
Battlefront 2 rightly got massive criticism for the monetization (though battlefront 1 was bad too in a different way). That said, I’m moreso fascinated on how much visually superior the 2015 game is to the 2017, even if there’s so much more content
Well. This video sure made me actually be interested in Fallen Order
I’m very surprised you didn’t mention the non-MMO KOTOR games. They are exactly what I want in regards to exploring Star Wars independent from the film settings.
You pretty much explained perfectly why the new sequels and the two other SW films failed -- they were simply extra. The Star Wars story from the original trilogy is very simplistic and limited in scope, you can only do so much with it before people start rejecting it outright. But this is a Disney franchise we're talking about, and Disney's gotta Disney. I don't expect that they'll expand the SW film universe in any meaningful way beyond some minor shows if how they work with their pre-SW IP is an indicator. They'll just rehash the same old story over and over again, but this time for "the new generation".
Jedi Fallen Order is very much like the rebooted Tomb Raider games. You have the Metroidvania need to acquire new items/abilities to progress. Semi-linear levels somewhat open to exploration but having a scripted path through them. A narrative about digging through the remains of ancient civilization and puzzles taking place in old tombs.
Fallen Order does seem like the most interesting star wars game in a long time, I hadn't realised why that was until you articulated it so well.
If I did have to have a star wars game covering an existing era, I would much rather it be from the Clone Wars era as I absolutely love both versions of the Clone Wars animated show, but I also feel it has a lot of untapped potential. An RTS game by the same studious that made the Likes of C&C3 with the modern Frostbite Engine would be a treat, at least I would hope so! However, EA seems to impatient to create something like that again after what happened to C&C Generals 2 (Aka the reboot) and i'm not sure what other kind of title I would want about about an intergalactic conflict, but I'm sure some amazing single player games could be made too; Fallen Order proves that.
I hope you've played Republic Commando, if you like the Clone Wars era! It's very good!
@@internisus I have indeed ^.^ was just playing it the other day actually, I wish there was a sequel :O
2020 and we still don't have a modern windows version of dark forces...hope night dive delivers, it's been a good wave of 90s shooters lately.
...and then he ended with the John Williams credit song.
And I listened to it gleefully anyway.
Well Peak Star Wars is about all for the "professional" entertainment. But it is the lower budget less hype stuff that I find the most value in Star Wars, as for games that would be the modding community. Empire At War just got a remake mod. So the future of worthwhile starwars now lies in the fans and not with the marketers. It is a shame that most businesses look at user and fan generated content and think of it as competition to their "potential" profits and either steal it, or ban it.
Jedi Academy had a bunch of random cameos because Outcast had so few and people criticized it based on that.
About the Vader sequence, it actually came from Lucasfilm according to a Wash Post interview. It does feel a bit random, but it looks cool so...
The Knights of the Old Republic games already did all these things that Fallen Order does. It's more of a return to creating original stories out of the Star Wars universe, it's not like Fallen Order is doing something new entirely. Id even argue KOTOR is more original in its design aswell.
New errant signal? Yay!
The best star wars game will always be Droidworks, fite me
can't, i'm stuck at the bottom of this ramp
Maybe the best way to avoid the pitfalls of relying on Star Wars iconography is to just make art that isn’t Star Wars...
Well it was a spoiler to me, I hadn't seen that commercial, so thank you?
I would really love it if you did a video on the rise and fall of Active Worlds. I still don't know exactly why that game is a graveyard. Playing it with my friends was one of the best parts of my childhood. My brother recently mentioned it to be and i cannot believe i forgot about it. What ever happened to that wonderful world?
The Fallen Order's platforming and level design felt like straight out of the Ratchet & Clank games to me
11:19 probably my most unpopular gaming opinion is that dark souls is a metroid vania, but most people don't consider it as such because the paths you unlock are done purely narratively whereas zelda games give you a mechanical method. the only mechanical connection to the new paths is having to beat harder enemies to get there, if the lord vessel gave you a dodge roll that damaged armor AND let you roll through the orange fog gates then it would be more apparent. play dark souls and sekiro back to back and you'll see the full evolution.
13:33 also i'm like 85% sure that the hodge podge of other game ideas is not an intentional nod to the hodge podge of tropes that was ep 4. it al feels very "studio mandate" ey.
I clapped when I saw Darth Vader! Lol nah but fallen order probably has like you said the smartest use of SW iconography to do something similar but different.
Now imagine a Star Wars Breaking Bad type story about the spice trade and drug rings, that’d be interesting.