My biology professor in my community college (yr 2000) told me about Skeptic Magazine. We were debating religion vs science. He was a former Muslim, I a former evangelical. I have been reading Skeptic Magazine since. Thank you for making these lectures available to us all. What an honor! I come from a village in Guatemala. Catholic first, protestant Pentecostal next, Assemblies of God after, and Methodist last. I've searched for something in life. I still don't know what it is I'm searching. After taking Religions of the World at CSULB, I came to the realization that religion is good...for those who need a reason to be "good." I don't need/practice religion and believe I'm a better human being because of that. Now I don't need a reason to be good, I just do good because I chose to...much better than doing evil. Thank you again.
Slight correction: The Ghost Dance did not arise after Wounded Knee; quite the opposite. The adopting of the Ghost Dance by the Lakota is part of what caused the US to do the events that lead to the Massacre.
THANKS FROM MUNICH!!! Mankind has been lied to for such a long time - it is high time for reason now. And you are one of the finest speakers for it. :-)))
As I watched this excellent lecture, I was struck by realization of just how many Characteristics of Cults matched the behavior of Hollywood. If we were to view Hollywood as an entity, it exhibits an inordinately high number of said criteria. Thank you for the thought provoking lectures.
I prefer to approach cults and religion more through an anthropological frame; we're social primates. Alone, our mental flaws are amplified and we're unhappy. When we have esteem or status in our survival group we fill fulfilled or happy. Our happiness and survival are wired to our group's survival. That said, I imagine a cult is a group that takes advantage of our social wiring at the expense of the self or the wider societal context. Thanks for all you do Michael. I miss you, the groups, and the society after parties! Be well all!
what a pleasure to hear your views on this topic which has always fascinated me. Your informed opinions on skeptical issues are so valuable for the wider public to consider. Thanks for all your work and communications Michael.
Although i agree with the general message and most of the content in this lecture i am a bit puzzled by the list of alleged virgin births presented - after factchecking buddha and krishna do not seem to be commonly considered virgin births and some of the others are also not clear ...
Buddha and Krishna are not considered to be gods based on virgin births anyway. I hope people starts looking at polytheistic religions differently from monotheistic religions (Not gods, they don’t exist)
I heard that when like- minded people group together, their opinions and views tend to become more extreme. That’s why retaining your individuality is so important. Define yourself with as few other qualifiers as possible.
I now get why Trump was elected - Christians wanted so much to hear the last trump talked about in the book of revelation. He was said to bring on the judgment day, metaphorically speaking of course. (I wonder if he knows that?)
The Epic of Gilgamesh you cite is the Akkadian version, the most complete, but a translation and re-writing by a priest Sin-Lekki Unnini of the much older anonymous Sumerian story that dates to before 2500 BCE.
Disappointed that there was no mention of the Jehovah's Witnesses with their many failed prophecies and the increasingly autocratic behaviour of their governing body.
The Mayans, as a coherent group with sophisticated mathematics almost certainly did not exist 5123 years ago. Early dates on Mayan calendars are extrapolations of the calendar back in time. A better date for the origin of that calendar is in the first millennium CE.
After we cease to exist, because there will be things born in the universe; our deaths will be followed by one of those new life-form's births. They will exist and we will not. So after we die we can expect there to be yet more experience via one of those completely new things.
The politically vocal individual cannot be construed as a "cult" or a "sect" but could be defined far too easily as a "lone wolf" as one example for our current times, by powerful groups and individuals which can take on "cult-like" or "sect-like" characteristics in and of themselves. This may be in order to make persuasive counter arguments to politically uncomfortable but relevant opinions and perspectives expressed by those individuals. Of which may be truthful and counterproductive to the maintenance and status quo of the powers that be which are justly challenged from objective historical records and evidence of abuses.
I enjoyed this. However, at one point you describe people doing bad science and bad reliant looking at strata in rocks etc. , because they are missing the mythical point of the story. But isn’t that assuming that you hold the deeper truth to religion, and isn’t this comparable to the religious beliefs themselves? Many myths appear to be founded on actual historical events and places e.g. Troy in the Iliad. If you simply assume all religions are purely mythical, you don’t have to do the difficult work of understanding the truth that may support them. Perhaps a little too convenient?
Shermer says biblical literalists aren't just doing science wrong, they're doing religion wrong. And then piles on more examples of religious folk who believe their own myths, insisting they're all doing it wrong. So, either Shermer is right, and the great mass of believers miss the point of their own beliefs... or Shermer is wrong about religion. It's like insisting the only purpose of marriage is making children, and telling anyone who gets anything _else_ out of a marriage that they're not really married.
Understanding how Mormons and Scientology came to be is quite easy, it was a successful scam that has been very profitable for the organization but what is the driver behind these smaller cults, are they less successful scam artists or do they actually believe what they are preaching? After all, if you are a scam artist you should try to create a story that at it is easy for people to believe in and not a totally far-out story that not even the weakest minds would fall for.
I usually have fun with my liberal friends on FB when they try to straddle that "I'm all-in on science / I'm a Christian!!!" line. That's a special level of cognitive dissonance. I generally leave the right wingers alone because you can't argue faith really and at least there's a degree of consistency there. But if you're a lefty and wanna preach Climate Science / evolution to me and also believe a guy died on a Friday and got back up on a Sunday??? well... that's like throwing chum in the waters of the Ocean Of Logic...the logic sharks gotta come out 🦈🤘
5:00 to 7:00 - If you've ever made a less-than-worshipful Comment on RUclips about Tesla electric vehicles or the Prophet-Messiah Ego Muskrat - who's going to fly the faithful to Mars in a big shiny rocket - you'll know all you need to know about cults. Also typos. (That 'l' in 'cults' should've been an 'n'.) 🤭
I like Shermer best in this stuff. I differ on him on not being skeptical of mainstream physics though which is really not physics but mathematics. You can't do physics without an object and science isn't about skepticism but about rational explanations. It isn't about reifying concepts or in descriptions as the mainstream deals with. I say they prop themselves up as the authorities so they are a cult.
I'm sure others have noticed that Michael Shermer really isn't very edifying. In this he just recounts historical cults like Heavens gate, Jonestown and Mormanism etc. And then, so what? I mean it's sort or interesting but what have we learned about ourselves? I noticed this also when I read his book 20 years ago "Why People Believe Weird Things." He doesn't know and doesn't seem the least bit interested.
![Method Writing: The First Four Concepts - Jack Grapes [FULL INTERVIEW]](/img/1.gif)
Thank you!
My biology professor in my community college (yr 2000) told me about Skeptic Magazine. We were debating religion vs science. He was a former Muslim, I a former evangelical. I have been reading Skeptic Magazine since. Thank you for making these lectures available to us all. What an honor!
I come from a village in Guatemala. Catholic first, protestant Pentecostal next, Assemblies of God after, and Methodist last. I've searched for something in life. I still don't know what it is I'm searching. After taking Religions of the World at CSULB, I came to the realization that religion is good...for those who need a reason to be "good." I don't need/practice religion and believe I'm a better human being because of that. Now I don't need a reason to be good, I just do good because I chose to...much better than doing evil.
Thank you again.
Heavens Gate - “Maybe they’re there” that got me
The main difference between a religion and a cult is the effectiveness of their marketing.
Slight correction: The Ghost Dance did not arise after Wounded Knee; quite the opposite. The adopting of the Ghost Dance by the Lakota is part of what caused the US to do the events that lead to the Massacre.
I have been in the Buddhist sect as a Buddhist monk, red flags look very familiar .
THANKS FROM MUNICH!!! Mankind has been lied to for such a long time - it is high time for reason now. And you are one of the finest speakers for it. :-)))
As I watched this excellent lecture, I was struck by realization of just how many Characteristics of Cults matched the behavior of Hollywood. If we were to view Hollywood as an entity, it exhibits an inordinately high number of said criteria. Thank you for the thought provoking lectures.
For me when I was looking at characteristics of a cult, it reminded me of missionaries across Africa and India.
I prefer to approach cults and religion more through an anthropological frame; we're social primates. Alone, our mental flaws are amplified and we're unhappy. When we have esteem or status in our survival group we fill fulfilled or happy. Our happiness and survival are wired to our group's survival. That said, I imagine a cult is a group that takes advantage of our social wiring at the expense of the self or the wider societal context.
Thanks for all you do Michael. I miss you, the groups, and the society after parties! Be well all!
what a pleasure to hear your views on this topic which has always fascinated me. Your informed opinions on skeptical issues are so valuable for the wider public to consider. Thanks for all your work and communications Michael.
A big fan of many years. I hope stay safe and healthy.
Keep up the good work, good sir.
Heaven's Gate I awoke in the hospital and heard a reporter say "It's hard to believe the stupid things that smart people believe."
Thank you Dr Shermer. I've been a fan for many years.
When you come across people like Applewhite. Just remember even psychopaths blink.
Although i agree with the general message and most of the content in this lecture i am a bit puzzled by the list of alleged virgin births presented - after factchecking buddha and krishna do not seem to be commonly considered virgin births and some of the others are also not clear ...
Buddha and Krishna are not considered to be gods based on virgin births anyway. I hope people starts looking at polytheistic religions differently from monotheistic religions (Not gods, they don’t exist)
I heard that when like- minded people group together, their opinions and views tend to become more extreme. That’s why retaining your individuality is so important. Define yourself with as few other qualifiers as possible.
Great series.
Great!
A cult is where the leader is alive, a religion is where the leader is dead. - is what I've heard for cults.
A cult is when they won’t let you leave.
@@commissary4196 when you try to leave islam they kill you - so they are a cult.
What do you think of Steve Hassan's definition of a cult and his BITE model for determining if something is a cult?
Lol. I didn't see your comment until after I posted the same thing.
I now get why Trump was elected - Christians wanted so much to hear the last trump talked about in the book of revelation. He was said to bring on the judgment day, metaphorically speaking of course. (I wonder if he knows that?)
The Epic of Gilgamesh you cite is the Akkadian version, the most complete, but a translation and re-writing by a priest Sin-Lekki Unnini of the much older anonymous Sumerian story that dates to before 2500 BCE.
Does anyone have a link to the next lecture he refers to at the end, the Cultish Culture of Evil? Thanks
Moltes mercès from Barcelona. I went to your speech there too. Take care.
Disappointed that there was no mention of the Jehovah's Witnesses with their many failed prophecies and the increasingly autocratic behaviour of their governing body.
sounds like a lot of our politicians left and right
The Mayans, as a coherent group with sophisticated mathematics almost certainly did not exist 5123 years ago. Early dates on Mayan calendars are extrapolations of the calendar back in time. A better date for the origin of that calendar is in the first millennium CE.
Thanks for all the great work over the years, we love you.
After we cease to exist, because there will be things born in the universe; our deaths will be followed by one of those new life-form's births. They will exist and we will not. So after we die we can expect there to be yet more experience via one of those completely new things.
Had to figure out who that was in the thumbnail -> Marshall Applewhite from the Heaven's Gate cult.
A perfect description of the Catholic Church and the cult of Jesus, Mary, and St Paul.
The entire history of the Church is built on make believe.
Did't the Phoenix lights happen around the same time as heavens gate suicides ?
Great job, as always. I'm a big fan of sanity.
The politically vocal individual cannot be construed as a "cult" or a "sect" but could be defined far too easily as a "lone wolf" as one example for our current times, by powerful groups and individuals which can take on "cult-like" or "sect-like" characteristics in and of themselves. This may be in order to make persuasive counter arguments to politically uncomfortable but relevant opinions and perspectives expressed by those individuals. Of which may be truthful and counterproductive to the maintenance and status quo of the powers that be which are justly challenged from objective historical records and evidence of abuses.
Would love to be a student under his tutelage!!!
I enjoyed this. However, at one point you describe people doing bad science and bad reliant looking at strata in rocks etc. , because they are missing the mythical point of the story. But isn’t that assuming that you hold the deeper truth to religion, and isn’t this comparable to the religious beliefs themselves? Many myths appear to be founded on actual historical events and places e.g. Troy in the Iliad.
If you simply assume all religions are purely mythical, you don’t have to do the difficult work of understanding the truth that may support them. Perhaps a little too convenient?
Shermer says biblical literalists aren't just doing science wrong, they're doing religion wrong. And then piles on more examples of religious folk who believe their own myths, insisting they're all doing it wrong.
So, either Shermer is right, and the great mass of believers miss the point of their own beliefs... or Shermer is wrong about religion.
It's like insisting the only purpose of marriage is making children, and telling anyone who gets anything _else_ out of a marriage that they're not really married.
Understanding how Mormons and Scientology came to be is quite easy, it was a successful scam that has been very profitable for the organization but what is the driver behind these smaller cults, are they less successful scam artists or do they actually believe what they are preaching? After all, if you are a scam artist you should try to create a story that at it is easy for people to believe in and not a totally far-out story that not even the weakest minds would fall for.
I usually have fun with my liberal friends on FB when they try to straddle that "I'm all-in on science / I'm a Christian!!!" line. That's a special level of cognitive dissonance. I generally leave the right wingers alone because you can't argue faith really and at least there's a degree of consistency there. But if you're a lefty and wanna preach Climate Science / evolution to me and also believe a guy died on a Friday and got back up on a Sunday??? well... that's like throwing chum in the waters of the Ocean Of Logic...the logic sharks gotta come out 🦈🤘
Please settle a bet. Must all cults contain mystical or supernatural precepts?
When you play your videos can you please mute yourself to avoid the echo effect? Thank you.
5:00 to 7:00 - If you've ever made a less-than-worshipful Comment on RUclips about Tesla electric vehicles or the Prophet-Messiah Ego Muskrat - who's going to fly the faithful to Mars in a big shiny rocket - you'll know all you need to know about cults. Also typos. (That 'l' in 'cults' should've been an 'n'.) 🤭
Pen
On the rapture my friends, it did happen, only one to go was my evil twin...
I like Shermer best in this stuff. I differ on him on not being skeptical of mainstream physics though which is really not physics but mathematics. You can't do physics without an object and science isn't about skepticism but about rational explanations. It isn't about reifying concepts or in descriptions as the mainstream deals with. I say they prop themselves up as the authorities so they are a cult.
A Trolls job is to stop groups turning into Cults.
Honourable trolling is a new religion. Can I worship you and where do I send money and blood? Certain Thomas outranks the doubting one.
I'm sure others have noticed that Michael Shermer really isn't very edifying. In this he just recounts historical cults like Heavens gate, Jonestown and Mormanism etc. And then, so what? I mean it's sort or interesting but what have we learned about ourselves? I noticed this also when I read his book 20 years ago "Why People Believe Weird Things." He doesn't know and doesn't seem the least bit interested.
Can I still join Heaven's Gate?
You mean Stargate?
As long as you're wearing Adidas.
www.heavensgate.com/
That desktop is a disgrace. But thanks for everything.
Crawling on the planet’s face. Some insects call the human race. Lost in time, lost in space and meaning.