Reacting to The Great Push Exploit Drama
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- Опубликовано: 24 авг 2024
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A few days back the final day of the Great Push was played, and in classic wow fashion it did include a little bit of drama about a certain strat that the Echo players used. In this video I'll be going over my general thoughts on the tournament and the strat.
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Group 4: did not watch the tournament, didn't see the wowhead article but watches max' video anyway
This is the way
Group 5: All of the above, but havnt played WoW since +2 1/2 years.
i just like Max's voice xD
100% true
"They try to fix every problem but they do it the wrong way" Yep thats blizzard
and you know what? people keep giving them money. If you want to be judgemental, perhaps you should put your money where your mouths are :)
I love how you went from “That Mini-game” to making a 30 minute video, explaining the awesome drama of the event. Blizz made a good event for M+! I even think that it’s more fun to watch than MDI.
It was way more hype imo, waaaay more hype
@@vanyel_etc8695 no shit it’s new
@@vanyel_etc8695 it’s always nice to have some hype and rivalry.
There is a reason the saying "Exploit early and often" has been a thing with WoW for pretty much its whole life
Except ICC
Easily the best take with multiple viewpoints, most of what’s been said applies to almost all aspects of competitive mmos
There are other competitive MMOs?
@@theparadisesnare Meaning, a MMO that has a competitive aspect.
The inconsistent muting of f-bombs is hilarious.
Hahaha totally random, love it
lol trying to copy blizz enforcement on rules.
I wasn't paying attention to where the muting was but it could be because youtube frequently demonetise videos if there's swearing in the early part of the video rather than the mid or end points. Perhaps because they only listen or monitor the first few minute of a video.
@@firstnamelastname1749 Or Blizzard problem solving in general. It's great.
People are looking at this all wrong, the problem here are not the plague borers, the problem is the infinite md. Blizzard pretty much just allowed a permanent buff to be exploited. Now just imagine a team found a way for their mage to keep permanent combustion, would that be allowed, would that be fair.
Also his opinion is biased as fuck, before the competition started he said that echo was gonna destroy everyone that it wasn’t even gonna be close. Also just imagine how Max would feel if echo bugged the shit out of sylvanas and got world first, he would be mad salty.
@@TheBloodygeneral Yes exactly, that is a very good point.
It's very cool to see a top player from US defend people and their competitors from EU.
I agree, it's all on Blizzard honestly. Admin your shit better, be clearer on what is allowed and not allowed so these gray-zones go away and people don't even consider them anymore.
*It's ok to be harsh for competitive integrity Blizzard. But you weren't, so this happened instead.*
100%, they let this be a fuckin free for all and the players did what they want. Echo found a strat that worked, so they took it. Blizzard watched for 5 hours and enjoyed it. I wasn't rooting for any team, just enjoyed the event, and I fucking loved it! It was weird, it was cool, it was 2 tanks, it was buggy af which caused echo to have to adapt a bunch of times to get mobs inside it, it was fuckin solid. Bosses being pulled to the corner of the map and shit, idk it was sick and they still only barely made the dungeon work as well, which to me shows how fucking ridiculous tyrannical actually is. Even echo, who knew what was going on, barely got away with their strat. That's cool as shit.
clearly, this was allowed, based on the no actions from blizzard?
Whats "cool" about a top US player defend EU players lol? The stupid US vs EU bullshit is just a meme that autists in twitch chat propagate and actually believe in, none of the players themselves really give a shit about it...its pretty normal for US players to respect and defend EU players and vice versa.
What Handcannon said, its a propagate. Don't fall into it Vanyel. EU gamers are actually really skilled and I enjoy watching them as a NA gamer. The different styles, environments we have within a raid or even a 5 v5 is interesting and I learn from.
I actually loved the last day. You had one team smashing a straight up strat, you had another team spell stealing Fungalmancer and dragging them throughout the dungeon, and another send bombs across the dungeon to help clear.
Was great that you had 3 distinct approaches.
I feel like the same casual players who flame Echo for using bugs to time dungeons are the same people who flame Blizzard for fixing bugs.
Wait... blizzard fixed a bug? No wonder we aren't getting 9.1 until 2032
i mostly complain about Blizzard not giving us mortals enough time to test the bugs we see on the MDI, like the spider toy on Sanguine depts, the Robot buff on Necrotic Wake, etc, etc, etc... it happens on tournaments and the next reset blizzard fix it on retail so no one else enjoys the gameplay we saw during the tournaments...
"with their anime avatars"
man, why you gotta do me like that
Straight disrespek
We are entitled to use the product we pay for at it current state. If there is a bug we can use its Blizzards fucking problem not ours.
Group 4: I don't even play wow anymore dident watch the tournament but i don't really wanna start watch it when i hear stuff like this.
this is exactly the same thing as with the "Fountain Hook" from dota2 back in the day, one team "abused" an interaction and got out of a big disadvantage and won the game in the end, after which said interaction was fixed, not many people were mad, and in the end it became one of the most iconic dota2 moments in the history
Dude first thing I thought of. Pro gamers though to pull any of these “exploits” off
Why does no one mention that in just Shadowlands MDI bugs like this and bigger have been a thing used over and over. Skipping half of the phases on last boss in Spire, making bosses literally just stand still and not cast any abilities, pulling "non existent" mobs in mists, it being patched and then finding a new work around the patch to pull mobs again and so on?
One thing to consider as a devil's advocate is the tiebreaker format: A key level up is a key level up no matter in which dungeon. And the first tiebreaker is highest individual key. That means that (in this case) the highest individual key is by far the most important strategy to focus on and as such spending excessive amounts of time on a single dungeon (assuming you can choose between 2 keys that are both grindy level-ups) is a good strategy.
This means, that focusing on finding these tricks to push the one highest key further is taking a lot of practice time (the fixed cyclone bug, however many attempts it also took to nail this strat...) that it is also likely that Echo did not have time to map out as optimal strats as other teams on the other dungeons because the focus was on pushing tiebreaker 1. If their other dungeons are slightly more sloppy and they have a worse tiebreaker 2, who cares?
To that end, if blizzard does not come down hard even during the preparation time on a bug like this, they have effectively screwed one team over at competition time by destroying their prep - so saying that they should stop during the X hours they were watching is also not completely fair.
People have been preparing for TGP for weeks, and if you get told *on the day* that you have to change strat you have a distinct unfair disadvantage which I also don't support. Ideally, in addition to the ruleset of allowed (known) bugs, the rules should probably be locked in ~a week before the event so that people can adjust their strats to #TheListOfForbiddenBugs
It sucks as a fan of wow M+ as it highlights the lack of effort they put into events like this which highlight something I really enjoy and put a lot of time into. The great push is an awesome format, and was really close the first 2 days. The last day was a team exploiting a clearly unintended interaction to run away with it. As a fan outside the M+ community looking in, it makes our game look like trash.
The biggest thing here is that Echo were doing it for 5 hours straight or whatever. That's enough time for Blizzard to go 'hey, are we ok with this?', and then enforce their ruling. If that did happen, then obviously they were ok with it. If I remember correctly, another team even tried to emulate this strategy.
Well they might've not known Echo used the MD bug during the race, sometimes in sports there is no immediate penalty for misconducts. I would've not been mad if they disqualified the run after the competition. That being said, if Blizzard didn't know how Echo actually did that, they could've paused the race and investigate it, ask Echo and then make their decision. After that just make casters announce the conclusion and avoid all this unnecessary drama. Blizzard failed big time with this situation by not giving any official statement or have they?
Dorki's team successfully emulated the strategy, but that was after they had dropped out from the competition.
@@hekev They probably knew. The administrator is watching in-game and can see what's going on, including the combat log.
The crucial part that most people seem to be missing is that the rules aren't written in black and white. Bugs are discouraged, but not de facto disallowed. Blizzard officials use sole discretion to permit certain exploits/bugs, and in this case they deemed it acceptable. I assume the administrator thought the strategy still required enough finesse and skill for it to be allowed.
@@Sajxi "Blizzard officials use sole discretion to permit certain exploits/bugs"
And that is a problem as that means if you are allowed to use or not allowed to use an exploit or a bug comes down to the person following you around right then and there not actual rules.
The real problem was that blizzard was quiet to the audience there was no talk from blizzard it took 3-4hours before someone part of the event even talked about and said it was ok for them to use it.
It tarnished a very good event up until that point.
Honestly I find it interesting to see how the top players come up with new strata it makes a casual player like me want to try it.
And it is much much much easier than this mdi shit people try do to after every mdi
I’d agree if it was bringing a new class or new strat and not abusing a mechanical they know is not work correctly
The bug they used wasn't some auto win big. Doing a 28 while juggling plague dudes and using them correctly while anything at any point could go wrong. Super fucking impressive imo. Sad to see my boy JPC lose though, I can certainly feel for their team.
if there was proper rule set and admins with balls they wold not be able to even step in dung with 2 tanks to try pull it off
(going in dung with stacking class/spec) is red light for abuse on something
I was following the tournament but not watching. To see it come so down to the wire and know a bug was the determining factor just cheapens it to me. It would be like if in the NBA you had a great 7 game series that came down to the last few seconds and a player “flopped” to get a foul shot and won the championship. (Odd analogy but still)
We can hate on RUclips all we want. But just the fact that we dont have the option to pause and rewind on twitch makes RUclips a much better viewer experience if you dont care about the emote spamming in twitch chat
Facts. RUclips streaming is pretty nice honestly if you don't care about chat. You can do and say what you want aswell without having to be afraid of being randomly banned.
Not sure I even blame Blizzard for this, at least on a programming "a bug exists" front.
Formula 1 has stewards that have to call whether a driver is abusing the limits of the track or chalk up whether a crash that potentially ruins someone's race is unsporting or dangerous enough to penalize someone involved or just a racing incident where no punishments are handed out and it's chalked up to racing just being like that.
I blame this great push drama entirely on the guys running the show who didn't tell Echo to stop abusing this mid-tournament. All it would have taken is a 3 minute conversation and someone with the authority and common sense to make the call.
Almost every popular speed running category for a game uses glitches or exploits. If it's in the game, its fair play. If it's not allowed, patch it out. Fair playing field, no grey area.
Blizzard should just realize this and make this the rules.
Main différence is that in speedtuns we agree on glitch legality beforehand. Glitches are documented and discussed.
Whar you mention is glitches and bugs which both parties are ok with. These are precisely documented most of the time which is not the case what we have got here.
@@Senen33 Yes. Exactly. That is why I said "Blizzard should just realize this and make this the rules"
The infinite MD is clearly a bug though. It is not ambitious due to boss mechanics. This event, after all, is a tournament instead of guilds voluntarily race to the world first.
I am not sure if Max is into this mythic plus pushing thing. I am just saying having bombs airdrop to the tank literally renders the dungeon almost meaningless. After all, though, I think it is bliz fault for not even understanding their own game.
Yeah the tool tip of MD says it works one way and they found a way to make it work outside of that definition, but if blizzard took the time to fix that bug we wouldn't see 9.1 until 2023. I mean there's still fish in zul drak that can kill you while you're on the bridge or even in the boss chamber that isnt even over water.
The words spoken at the last five minutes resonates. Even as a casual player, I am so tired of every patch or balance updates always breaking my talent trees just because a handful of people complained that they were represented enough or because a handful of specs did slightly better therefore they needed to be nerfed for some reason. Its why the concept of maining a character for an entire expansion no longer makes sense because every update, every new raid or dungeon will always mean you most likely have to rotate to an alt for that particular content because your previous rotation got broken by an update.
It's kinda a bummer that Pleaguefall was the dungeon pushed highest and was the deciding factor.
For me the +26 Dos was absolutely nuts and is my personal winner. That run was just insane.
Doesnt matter if blizzard fix it or not , bug is a bug , using a bug is not right at all , and as a Pro player, u know that, thats enough talk
Bug exploiting should have consequences. DQ for bug exploiting was in the tourney rules. They should just be DQd. If it turned out the strat was as the commentators initially thought, some sort of global combat/feign death thing, I think that would have fallen into a different category of "this is how the dungeon works" versus "this is not how MD works, lets use that bug to win"
Don't care about the outcome but for some like me. I hear Echo and remember they were Method which is a guild that bought gold from Gallywix. Still don't care but if there is a bug then Blizzard needs to do their job and not allow that to happen and there should be some more unique strategies since those are what makes it really interesting.
Also Wallpaper Engine is an awesome app. I saw it on TikTok and immediately knew I needed it in my life.
Very nice technical analysis and history lesson, but these don't matter at all. All that matters is the majority of people thinks that they were cheating and exploiting the MD bugs, and Echoes lost the PR war. Think about Maradona, he used his hand to score in World Cup and brought home the champion. You want to blame the referee, FIFA or the stupid fans? Go ahead. But Maradona has a shitty life and died with a bad name since then.
Yeah I don't get this whole mentality of "as long as there is no punishment I can do/abuse/exploit anything". Wtf just because it is exploitable does not mean you SHOULD exploit it.
17:20 Preach you’re the best
Blizz is so inconsistent, I wonder what do they even think asking world first guild to not use exploits, yet NOT FIXING exploits ASAP
Btw have some swearing been edited out? Why even bother D:
I agree mostly, whatever it takes to win is fair. But not knowing what its like to play at highest level is normal. These tournaments ARE for people who cant play like that. They are not for hardcore players, not for echo method etc. They are for normal players to entertain them, promote game and get money. And from that PoV, echo just revealed that game have bugs, bad ones, and devs are ok with players exploiting them. Not a good look, PR wise.
The officials job is to put a line not to cross, and player’s job is to push towards that line as close as possible to gain advantage for the competition.
The best deal about this is Max is exactly right, Blizzard is 100% inconsistent with "exploit" enforcement, look at the guilds that spell stole buffs from Freya to clear Hodir Hard Mode when it was nearly impossible, Blizzard officially said "ooh clever use of game mechanics". Same patch we saw bug abuse on Yogg 0 that led to the entire guild getting banned for 72 hours, that was not only reported by the guild Exodus to the official boards, but not intentional abuse of game bugs because it was discovered to work during the kill.
Blizzard has never been open or consistent with any conversation regarding where the line is.
I'm fine with smart plays, and clever use of mechanics for winning. But using clearly unintended bugs or system issues in tournament play should be frowned on. I do fully agree this is primarily on Blizzard though, they should fix these issues, and make rules clear about abusing bugs.
I watched the entire tournament and for me, things like these are the reason TGP is so much better then the MDI. These clever use of mechanics are so much fun to watch. It’s not as if echo made the boss a cake walk. I watched Gingi die 3 times during the run. They used a way ( exploit, bug, whatever) to time a 28 PF for the first time ever. I hope they keep doing this.
True Respect for your guild competitors.
The great push is awesome!
On one hand yes the misdirect tooltip reads that it works a certain way and method forced the coding to work a different way and thats literally the definition of an exploit, but on the other hand if method hadn't done it then eventually someone else would have.
But in my opinion snapping should have been fixed and ended in BFA the fact it wasn't tells me blizzard doesn't care about their game or pretending its a legitimate e-sport.
Hopefully morheims new studios and RIOT can put together some legit mmo competition so blizzard either pretends to care about their mmo or just gives up completely.
I loved the great push and was super fun to watch. I’d love to see them make it where you could watch a specific team’s POV rather than the ones blizzard is forcing you to watch. So watching an entire teams 27 run or swap to another to see what went wrong and just have a team selection tab on the screen and like an overview of the other teams in a small window. That would make it easier to watch
I thought the same, the split screen or one short term view a lot of the time was suboptimal. Max in this vid states that the individuals were allowed to stream their runs, which gives exactly what you are asking for. Making that clear on the main page would have helped a lot, with links to indivdual streams. But then maybe that would need warnings about mature content perhaps.
So what could Blizzard do:
1) Hunt down bugs much more rigorously and punish those who abuse any bug or unintended "feature". This I would call the "commercial e-sports" solution. I think this is unrealistic. First of all, Blizzard doesn't have the man power to hunt down the hundreds of bugs in the game, it seems. I also doubt the code is written in a way that is focussed on such a level of cleanliness, that it is likely no bug happens in such a huge event. Secondly I do not think it is appropriate, because the gain from all of that is relatively minor (sorry, but M+ tournaments and world first raiding just doesn't have the commercial scale of Starcraft II Tournaments or League of Legends "Worlds").
2) Adopt a policy of "anything goes". Let's call this the "100% speedrunning" solution. This is the easiest ruleset to enforce and has absolute clarity. One could still ban external software such as TAS / bots. Problematically, I think that this is neither what they intended, not what the community wants. It would likely result in a lot of cheesy runs and a battle for creative abuse of mechanics. While this may be a great thing to watch in speedrunning, it is a bit awkward in these broadcast tournament events. I think the main reason for this is that speedrunning in the speedrun community is asynchronous. Therefore each player can analyze other players tactic (video proof) to great detail before competing him-/herself. This level of openness is extremely unlikely to happen in preparation of a live tournament.
3) Go with their current strategy of "we do what we think is right", but use a more clear and more generalized set of rules. I think this may be the most suitable approach. I would love to see a set of general rules by Blizzard for Tournaments and the Race to World First, where they lay down which kinds of exploits are generally not allowed, and what the consequences are. Ideally, any guild that finds a possible exploit (e.g. in world first raiding) should then be able to identify it as a special case of some rule in this ruleset and not have to ask Blizzard what to do. I think this is not an ideal solution on any metric, but it may be by far the most practical one.
It honestly was a great event that came down to the wire in the end regardless of the Plagueborer strat and what you think of it. I think we should not let all the glory evaporate for that minor inconsistency. I have never sat more on the edge of my chair than at the end of the Great Push Broadcast.
i mean theres alot of legit reasons to hate echo this aint one of them
Out of curiosity, what would those legit reasons be?
@@deathbower largok for one and i just hate most of the major guilds
@@Blackwidow391 what did lorgok do ? and you "hate" most top guilds ? why hate ?
@@razien9941 lorgok is a sexist creep and i cant stand most high end players attitudes towards the rest of the playerbase
Blizzard should have not just sat on the fence with that one but I also feel Echo talked around the infinite MD to get Blizz to not really do anything. Everyone is in the wrong to some extent, but blizz mostly for not just saying "no don't do it"
Blizz needs to just actually set a clear definition of exploits.
It was all really exciting to watch! I loved watching that plagueboarer strat, I didnt watch it all till the end but watched a few hours of the games. So all this drama comming out I found it really strange. After reading comments and watching some of these videos it seems that a lot of people just seem confused and seems like it was bound to happen with the rules being so lose?
I was pretty much only surprised by the hidden UI, thought the whole point of it being streamed was to see what they were doing? I understand that it was in a personal stream but in a hosted tournament that just seemed strange, but hey if it is not against the Rules then thats fine but I think that particularly needs to be specified, if everyplayer had their UI hidden it would be fairly boring to watch.
Anyways the great push was amazing to watch I loved it!
I do hope they sort out some of these rules to lessen all this drama, make it more streamlined and not further stain the competition.
Yeah, it is on Blizzard to actually enforce their rules. However, doing stuff that clearly isn't intended in order to gain an advantage is not a good look.
Snapping like 4 packs of mobs on a pillar wasn't intended yet if you didn't do it you couldn't win the dungeon. There have also been bosses who you could make not do any abilities at all and Blizzard never bothered to fix it. You either do these things or you can't compete at the highest level.
Sorry if you are at an event with officials watching and they do not tell you to stop or penalize you in any way then its a legal move.
Hahaaa I love it my dude, but can't forget about the fan boys of the other teams trying to think reasons to discredit their win but i love watching you high end players come up with the crazy stuff it makes it so much more enjoyable to watch
I hate that the status quo is Blizzard having a game full of bugs that forces them to not enforce their own rules. I genuinely do not like watching bug abuse in dungeons.
My big thing is this isnt the first time an "exploit" has been used this season in M+ esports, in MDI in Mists at the beginning of the season teams were pulling extra packs through the walls in the Labyrinth and Blizzard patched it after seeing that, but no one had an issue because every team eventually ended up using that strategy but it was a surprise the first time a team used it and no one got pissed off they were getting good times using an exploit. The only reason the other teams didnt use the Plaguefall MD strat in TGP is because they didnt have enough time to adapt it.
About the argument, that blaming Blizz is OK, but blaming Echo is not. Criminals often say they're just products of the system. Should we justify them based on this? Or should we consider the fact everyone makes their own choices?
People complaining about their classes not being represented enough in the season *Cries in Fury Warrior/ Blood DK*
Just about every tank, but yeah blood DK even more.
My rwf days ended in cata, mainly in wotlk though, be glad they actually talk to you, for us they just looked after and banned us.
If it just had been on RUclips (especially without player POVs), I wouldn't have watched.
Also those damn Kin'Garoth bombs give me ptsd..
ENTIRE WOW COMMUNITY WANTS TO WHINE ABOUT ANYTHING
AND THEN DOING IT WITH AN ANIME AVATAR
yes. that is the correct statement
It was a fun tournament, but did end weirdly. But that's nothing to do with Echo - if there's any blame, it sits with Blizzard for their inconsistency on things like this. And let's not forget, what Echo did was still incredibly difficult and they do deserve props for pulling it off regardless.
Incredibly difficult, yes! All these haters acting like they could start doing this in their weekly pug 10+
Well, I am firmly in "They (and I could not care less WHICH team it was) should've been DQed" camp in general, because "Permanent MD" is crossing the line from "creative use" to "bug abuse" from my PoV. And I am clearly in the "logical" camp you mentioned in the video, the format was great and much more satisfying to watch than MDI speedruns, seeing it being decided due to a, let's say, "controversial" use of mechanics indeed stained it a bit.
I'd also expect teams to police themselves in general and refrain from stuff like "permanent MD" without having Blizzard to step in, at least on such more or less clear-cut occasions like in question. Nonetheless, your video gave some interesting perspective into the history of how Blizzard handles these things miserably and I can see how Echo and other highest end players come to the conclusion that these things are fair game.
You did hear the explicit examples of self-policing that ultimately hindered that team because infractions by other teams weren't enforced.
Blizzard are the only ones capable of enforcing the rules, and so they are the ones responsible for enforcing them.
@@alexjordan3830 Dunno what to tell you man. Of course I heard the examples of Maiden/Echo and Kin'garoth/Limit and how they were screwed by Blizzard not enforcing the rules, which DIRECTLY LEADS to the point of my last sentence: highest end guilds concluding for themselves such stuff is fair game ultimately resulting in Echo using the permanent MD in The Great Push.
I am not blaming the Echo players here, as argued in the video they have a lot of reasons to simply believe that even permanent MD is fair game. Nevertheless, as a AotC/KSM player in WoW and participating in amateur sports outside of that (think Sunday League soccer) I'd still rather see those players not (intentionally) killing Kin'garoth with the bug, killing maiden without the tank solo and going for timing PF without permanent MD.
There's nothing keeping highest end players from saying "Let's draw the line here" (see Dratnos referring to FH in his video on the topic). Of course Blizzard could and should be more clear and decisive, either explicitly allowing specific stuff and/or coming down hard on the people INTENTIONALLY abusing bugs (after clarifying that's a no-no) and coming down on all of them regardless of prominence.
@@DerGuteFee Of course there's stuff keeping highest end players from saying "let's draw the line here" - other high end players. Because if they exploit a bug in the tournament that gives them an advantage, and Blizzard doesn't punish them, then there is no punishment. Instead of drawing an arbitrary line which each player will view differently, the only authority in the game should be explicit and enforce the rules.
I'm sorry, but self-policing will get nowhere.
I fully agree with you MD bug abuse is imo far from "crrative use of dungeon mechanics".
@@alexjordan3830 Well, it is MY expectation at competitive players to adhere to general principles of fair play and sportsmanship, that's all I am saying. I am fully aware that that is an ideal to strive for and it is not reflected in the current reality. The reality is, that they don't do that and use every measure they can get. This is on Blizzard due to not enforcing punishments against clear-cut bug-abusing and on the players knowing they can get away with it and throwing sportsmanship and fair play down the bin.
How do I get that ICC gif background on the desktop? that looks hella dope af
Its called Wallpaper engine it is on steam, hes talking about it at: 17:25
@@janjankovicjahoda I've got wallpaper engine now but couldn't find the exact one max is using so far
Loved the push. Only complaint that I have is that the bug was used from a class not the dungeon itself. For example if the mobs were global Afro and the hunter used feign death to drop aggro, or perhaps a rogue or a night elf stealthing to drop aggro. My only complaint was that it was a bug that allowed an ability to last for a time that is clearly not intended. At the end of the day however blizzard should have had an admin or something ask them about it during the event. And stop it before they started running the highest key levels that gave them the win.
It's an exploit, and the exploiter is at fault, and Blizzard should have punished them, but didn't. It's shitty all around, especially for teams that lost without using an obvious bug.
Max with the hammer of truth, pog
Blizzard should have weeded everything out before putting it on live or continued testing on live to circumvent them. Anything left out there for players to discover for "themselves" is fair game. They found the weakness, it's thiers for the taking.
On that note, if a person broadcasts the bug and turns it into an actual guide to make the knowledge available/easier for everyone else is another story.
If you don't put in the work, you're not entitled to the reward.
I LOVE YOUR CHANNEL, MAN!
I agree with everything you’ve said, however I will say if they came to them and asked them about snapping, but not the infinite MD, then I think that’s sus. Hiding half the truth
He explained in the video why they wouldnt do that. Because in the past when they did that and were told not to do it other teams would do it and get away with it because they didnt ask.
@@bealmador I understood the point he was making to be not say anything at all, including the plagueborers
@@bealmador like either say everything, or say nothing.
@@ricolasalle8836 It's possible that they either thought the Plagueborers were more on the line or that they didn't think it was as big of a deal for their strat. Either way it makes sense not to say something.
@@bealmador well yeah, that’s all I’m saying is I don’t think they should have either said everything, or nothing. But not the halfway where they ask perm for one thing, but not the bug that allows it to be so. Just comes off as sus. Dope strat, just wish they wouldn’t have asked for anything and then I’d be okay with it
It is possible for both Blizzard and Echo to be at fault. The simple fact of the matter is this: high level players got used to abusing bugs and assumed they could get away with it. They didn't this time, got caught out, and the community is rightfully in an uproar about it.
Btw, it is good that Wowhead attracted attention to it the way they did. Now that lots of people are angry about it, maybe Blizzard will feel some motivation to alter their stance regarding these types of bugs in the future. (I'm not holding my breath, though).
Thanks for giving background info for casual viewers, it was a great video!
The thing that makes me mad is the fact that it looks like Blizz prefers players to exploit bugs as a strategy to achieve content progress than fixing bugs and improving specs to offer more variety and choice to develop more game tactics. It seems lazy.
Exploiting a class ability should have been shit canned, blizzard screwed up for sure. However an exploit of a class ability has nothing to do with the dungeon, they cheated and blizzard let them.
I absolutely watched the full weekend of TGP because I really love M+ and it’s just unfortunate that this whole situation came around. The bug did sour what was otherwise a great weekend of gameplay. I’d have loved to see Blizzard come in with more consistency on rules with this. It’s been a problem for absolutely years though so we can’t really fault Echo for what they did, I just wish it didn’t exist.
Hopefully the next one will be better!
I hope he sees this bro
My cat's name is Echo and he kept looking around while I had this video playing.
Forcing an infinite misdirect buff is definitely "clever", but it lacks integrity. Most players I assume want to play the game as it is and not have to learn how to abuse bugs to get ahead. Who is actually wanting a misdirect bug meta?? I have nothing against echo, I just personally think an infinite debuff or buff is over the top. What if they figured out how to put infinite BoP on the group? Where is the line?
Question, do you think if Bears or Ambition figured this out they would have used it? Yes or no?
@@johnwarner4178 I don't know the guilds very well so I can't really give any personal bias. I guess I could lean towards a yes just because exploits have sadly become the norm.
i think its ok if teams use bugs an glitches if blizz alows it, but i dont feel that as a real win, feels somehow a bit weird for me.
This comment is just a reminder that there was a great competition overall, with an increadibly close finish in the end. It would be absurd to see the Great Push as "this plagueborer tournament".
What doesn’t make to sense to me @maximum is that they stopped them using the cyclone/Mc strat, but not this one. It would make more sense to not allow a MD bug but cyclone clearly doesn’t let people die - it stops damage. The first strat seems more 10000IQ and the latter seems more like an s exploit
They stop using cyclone/Mc strat because it get fixed. The bomb now always die, even if you cycloned then.
@@user-mx6yk7er4h I know that. I’m saying that the MD bug is more of an exploit than the MC/Cyclone strat. Blizzard allowed the first but disallowed the latter - the one that seems more in the confines of the game.
The problem isn't that other teams didn't think of it, it's WHY they didn't think of it. Like i don't think anyone expected misdirect to work that way so it's obvious no other team thought of doing it except the ones who discovered the bug by accident. If blizzard continues to allow use of bugs it's gonna turn every high end m+ player into rextroy and deliberately looking for bugs that can give them an edge.
Honestly, their strat barely seemed worth it to do on the 24 and they were on the ropes for the last third of the Domina fight. Anyone using plagueborer snaps (mvp 2021) is knowingly in a grey area. While Echo certainly knowingly signed up for the criticism they’re getting for the MD bug use, as you said anyone playing at the high end should be aware that Blizz is nearly useless on addressing issues like that and Echo clearly put the work in to exploit Blizz’s fault. It wasn’t a WIN button. It took effort. Honestly unfortunate Blizz sucked at moderating the event. As a risk averse person I sympathize with the runner ups who didn’t take exploits as close to the edge as Echo did in risking disqualification. Well done by them. If they’re not disqualified then the hate they’re getting is probably punishment enough.
People in naohws chat told him the strat is shit because it wasnt a +2 24 :D
come to find out, in SoD, Blizz actually fucked Echo over for innovating on P2 Mythic Sylvanas, told them they couldn’t do that solo tank thing for the extra tank mob in Mythic Sylvanas, fixed it immediately, and went on with their day as if they didn’t just completely kill the mood and stomp out innovation. So they finally caught it, but only because Echo was showing Blizz didn’t even tune the Mythic P2 tank mob right lmfao.
One thing is, if the got the green light to use it, why do blizzard noot tell the other teams that the thing are legit to use ???? and not for fun that they saved the PF for the last day, so others could not use the same thing
this is on blizz thats it. its not Echos fault that they discovered a bug that would give them an enormous advantage. Blizz should've fixed it a long time ago. The only way Echo got a 27 PF done on tyrannical was because of exploiting that bug.
Team 1 here.
It's kind of a thing in fighting games you see sometimes where a big tournament will be won by someone playing a relatively safe character.
And like people will complain but I don't think that's fair to the professional playing. It's their job to win no shit they're going to take dhalsim or whoever.
I think the faults lays at the developers feet for allowing safe or boring or unexciting characters to be as powerful as they are.
Same thing with this, no shade on echo for using a cheesey strategy that Blizzard just openly let them use.
It is totally not the same thing
Respect to Max for keeping it real.
Exploits are cool, it was still pretty hard and they only had 5 hours to pull it off because they have to hide their strat. I think its obviously gray but this specifically felt cool to me
Forgot the faction who doesn't care which team wins but thought "Damn, that's cool. How did they even find it?" :D
Bit of tooting my own horn, I love how I got this thought again (as I forgot I had watched this before) :D
There was an example in Bfa with the 2nd Boss of Kings Rest. If you opend the cage very fast then the Boss Bugged out and didnt do mechaniks for the rest of the fight. Was at least in 2 Mdi seasons i watched but the bug existed since beta i think. EVERYBODY USED IT and it made a Boss just Melee the tank. The Casters always mentioned it.
I agree with this in terms of raid bugs the problem I have with what echo did is when they showcased their +30 strat blizz both hotfixed it and moved it to tryannical specifically to discourage them using a borer the entire dungeon. Blizz very clearly was looking to hotfix bugs for this event. I don't think anything will happen but this was real shady and blizz showed very clearly that they wanted to stop teams from using borers to kill the entire dungeon.
"we exploit because we dont think we are gonna get punished or because others wont get punished if they do it after" just because that may or may not be true doesnt mean ppl who abuse things like this arent scumbags
Judgmental, naive, and overly dramatic. Am I correct in assuming you are the spawn of Satan since you have an anime avatar? Of course not, overly exaggerated but same idea of assumptions.
I fully agree with you - just because you don't get punished for exploiting doesn't mean you should do it.
Hopefully some inkling of this drama will be left for the next event of this type, to get some hype, memes, and rivalry going. Like the whole 'candle' thing. I don't like it for the rage, but its cool to have people emotionally invested; makes victory sweeter, and defeat more bitter.
Thanks for pointing out the disgusting whiny wow community. Blizzard should just ignore them and let the noobs cry
we abused bugs, but blizz didn't ban us for that so it's cool, so you're a loser if you think that bug abuse is sketchy, bug should be abused at any given opportunity until blizzard bans you, yep.
There you go, summed up the video, of this channel host covering his ass for potential future bug abuses of his own.
If Blizzard want to expand this have all dungeons be included next season and split them over 2 weekends.
I think 2.5 hours on average was dungeon is a little short, 3-4h is probably the sweetspot
man what the fuck dude you nailed it to the wall
"you think you want it, but you fucking don't."
wow needs to be a vision, not our vision. our vision is shit that's why we aren't game developers or big dick story board leads
wow can not be what the players want. because what we want will fuck something else.
wow devs can not, should not listen to the player base. because we'll always find something new to be unhappy about.
What a surprise. Another wow esport event was turned into an absolute joke. Blizzard not fixing a bug quickly enough or the casters not reacting is hardly an excuse for what Echo did as well. This is a classic case of "everybody sucks here". I know you feel like you have to defend this not to get called salty by the other top guilds but come on...
everyone's bitching that echo should be banned for bug abuse and yet they forget that literally every mdi team in bfa was bugging mchimba in kings rest so he wouldnt do anything for the entire fight and blizzard didnt do shit about it
This isn't mdi.
@@Daccura but it uses mdi’s ruleset
@@roflixo Bug abuse is not allowed, that is litterally what TGP rule said says I just checked it. Idk what MDI says.
The problem with people saying that he hides his ui is twofold: 1. theres an obvious animation for MD, 2. the buff also appears on the one who was the target of MD. You cant hide that.
They stacked under a big mount to try to hide the visuals as much as possible, idk if they did that the whole time but clips did show them trying to hide it. Again tho, it’s on blizz whether there will be consequences for this bug since it was a blizzard tournament
Even with Echo using this strategy/glitch it was still so close. And if you watch those final day pf runs they are hanging on a knifes edge and it took them all 5 hours to get it done correctly. Also they used a version of this in one of their mdi runs in NW where they keep snapping a mob that throws axes with them the entire dungeon. These mechanics have been part of the game for months so yeah like Max said here...it's on blizz. If they didn't want this mechanic to be "exploited" by players they had months to fix it.
My take on it is that for future GPs, they should allow bug abuses then fix it after the tournament (barring 3rd party cheats/programs). I kinda see M+ as speed runs. And speed runs often utilize such bugs and glitches.
Complains about Mage/Moonkin and X has more to do with just the heck of complaining. Just look at their AoE and other toolkit compare to the very popular 3x BM Hunters from last xpac. BM Hunters are plain and simple down in the gutter at the moment and majority of specs have hard AoE cap.
I get the point that there will always be people complaining but in this case it's clearly a big failure on Blizzard part to have one or two specs given free reign and others are restricted.
The thing with what Echo did is that if Blizzard fixes MD abuse following the event, it's a big fail on the spirit of event: showing people relatable content. I want to watch the tournament and be able to go and try to reproduce some strats. I already reconsidered some of my routes, thanks to TGP. I don't watch it to see bug abuse that will get fixed.
That being said, your statement made me reconsider my stance on Echo. I was thinking "they should have known better and, even if they knew they could get away with it, they should respect the integrity of the rules and stuff" but they had reason to fear that if they had not done it, someone else might have anyway. It's on Blizzard to disable this mindset.
"The thing with what Echo did is that if Blizzard fixes MD abuse following the event, it's a big fail on the spirit of event: showing people relatable content."
This is undoubtedly EXACTLY what they are going to do, its classic Blizzard MO. Theyve done it many times in the past where instead of enforcing any rules and applying any punishments, they just go ahead and fix whatever bug was abused in a few weeks which makes no sense because it clearly shows they did not agree with or think the abuse of said bug was OK.
I would like the rules to be more consistent next time for sure. I really liked the tournie otherwise. Just a weird end... so guess I'm in the first group.
it was pretty cool, but i think a good change would be to activate only 2 different dungeons every day, that way you have more excitement every single day
They win with a 27 anyway. Any team could play it. Case closed.
That is sort of true BUT you are assuming they would time it with the Exact same time as they did with that strategy.
There is less then 1 min difference between all the dungeons.
If their normal strat would be 1min slower in PF they would lose.
But they won. I hope blizzard is harsher when it comes to this the next time.
Dude EVERY PF run from the was using this strad so no they would have lost since they would not have a legit PF run, at least not 27 or 28.
I just love how real this guy is. I know he's GM of the #1 guild in the world, but the guy seems like one of my buddies I'd be watching. Love it. Keep it up man, we appreciate you.
The fact that the *Twitch Warcraft Channel* alone had 2x the views of YT without the teams streaming more than doubling the exposure should tell their E-Sports department what's relevant.