One argument I wish I addressed in the video given that I’ve seen it a number of times in the comments: The OC is better stylistically because it indicates where you’d naturally take a pause in the sentence. 1. You do not write a comma every single time you take a pause. If you did, this, is how I would write this sentence. I would put a comma, right, here. Which, looks weird! 2. It’s also completely natural to not take a pause when listing those last two items (especially if the list is longer than 3). Find videos of people listing things and you’ll see it’s also incredibly normal to group those last two items together without a pause. I will concede the point though that if *every single item* in the list has an “and” in it (like “Ben and Jerry” and “Tom and Jerry”) then an OC would help. But you could also just use an & to clarify things.
1. How tf do you talk if you pause like that?! After an introductory, you pause after the next word??? You pause before and after the word “right” for some reason?!?!!? Stress isn’t the same as pauses! 2. Maybe it’s the lack of a serial comma that is causing this. I see no reason to randomly speed up at the end of a list. 3. A lot of the examples you gave could be easily fixed by adding different punctuation (parentheses or dashes) instead of commas. Granted, it looks uglier, but for the average person, it’s easier than reformatting the entire sentence. 4. Many of the example languages you gave also happen to give objects genders, which is one of the stupidest ideas of language in general, and the lack of it is one of the few saving graces of the English language, so don’t use the fact that many languages have a similar trait as a sign that that trait is a good, helpful thing. Also, others, like Arabic and Chinese, didn’t use a standardized punctuation until recently from Western influence.
Bad argument, pausing for emphasis, and pausing for flow, are unique sentence points. The OC isn't always necessary, but I'd much prefer to add punctuation to my sentence over changing the structure.
I've always been an advocate of the Oxford comma, but I feel compelled to concede to the case you make. Better wording has more power to disambiguate than an easy-to-miss comma.
@@Maxzes_ I don't think either of us "care" as much as you think we do, but there are definitely people who are very passionate about many things, grammar and spelling included.
the only use of an oxford comma is to absolve the author of the responsibility of sorting a 3-item list. if you're advocating for it then it means you're actually too stupid to determine how to sort a 3-item list. I would be ashamed to admit to ever advocating for it, if I were you.
As a German, who was disciplined never to use a comma before the word ‘and,’ I’ve loooved the Oxford comma ever since knowing it. It gives me freedom. It’s a rebellion against German
The rule is not as strict though. Zu meinem Geburtstag kommen meine Eltern, meine Cousine, ein Überraschungsgast, auf den ich sehr gespannt bin, und meine Schwester. Although the case is basically the same: You'd probably restructure the sentence for more clarity, e.g. by putting the surprise guest at the end.
@@timcordes4762 That's exactly my point? 😅 You can't blindly apply "no comma before 'and'", even in an enumeration, because there are exceptions. Given in an example.
I sometimes use an oxford comma when listing things that include the word 'and' in the name of the item itself, for example "Artists use pencils, chalk, pen and ink, and other materials." the comma here just makes it a bit easier to read and make sense of the list, but an alternative is replacing the 'and' in "pen and ink" with & and then omitting the comma, "Artists use graphite, chalk, pen & ink and other materials." both are valid but I agree it's not going to decide any court cases, a badly written document won't be fixed by a single comma like how an amputated limb won't be fixed with a band-aid.
@@cowzee Honestly, you don't even need to do that: "Artists use pencils, chalk, pen and ink and other materials" I would argue that that sentence is still very clear, and that "pen and ink" is still conveyed as a unified category. If the rule is that the last conjunction acts as the final list separator, then that's exactly how you would read it.
@@Crazy_Diamond_75 oh but that double 'and' does weird things to my brain, none of them good 😅 There something about the Oxford comma that just breaks up the sentence so nicely, especially if you're thinking about reading out loud. Maybe it's because I come from a background of theatre and working with children where I do a lot of reading out loud that those commas feel so essential to me... I think a good way to rephrase it would be "Artists use graphite, chalk, pen and ink, as well as other materials" pretty much solves the problem of the comma and does away with the double 'and'.
I agree, maybe it's not necessary but to my eyes it makes many lists read nicer. Like if you're listing a guest list: We're inviting Sarah, Anthony, Sam and his kids, Rebecca, and Alex. It just feels like it provides better delineation and rhythm to the sentence. And it maybe there isn't *true* ambiguity, but it does explicitly differentiate something in the list as an associated pairing. And while these are specific examples, it's not exactly a complicated grammar rule to apply universally.
@@LilBoyHexley i understand that this does, clear up the sentence, but phrases with "and" in them are usually saved for the end of the list or they sound weird, as it does here, i would end that list with "sam and his kids" because the and already implies a certain finality and throwing more list items after that is a bit confusing and doesnt sound great
I just like the oxford comma because it seems to more naturally indicate where you actually pause in a list. Writing something like "I invited Alex, Sam and Chris" makes me read it as if there's no rest between the word "Sam" and the word "and," which seems odd. Ultimately it's definitely just a case of preference though
Same, I'm a super fast reader but I always pull up short whenever that comma is missing, generally have to reread the sentence before I move on. Totally throws off pacing. When he said in the video that (paraphrase) 'we see it all the time and don't notice it' I was like... no I notice it constantly and it throws me off every time. I'm not saying it's necessary or that reworking sentences isn't the best option, but it does make reading clearer to me, personally, when it's present.
And everyone that grew up without it will say that it feels redundant because the "and" is already replacing the pause therefore you don't need one, once again, just a stylistic choice, which doesn't mean it's wrong, just not correct or better either.
Im feeling very vindicated right now. I remember being explicitly taught not to use an oxford comma in primary school because its not necessary and then seeing those annoying memes on Instagram about the eggs, toast and orange juice, and thinking how would there be any ambiguity in that sentence unless people really actually put orange juice on toast in America and talk to it
The only people who WOULD find these sentences ambiguous are Americans imo 😭 like Yuval said, no other language or even country practices the use of the Oxford comma and never have i seen any confusion when a sentence lacked it...
In Greek, as you said, it's considered a grammar mistake to use a comma before "and". However, the impact of American English in our everyday lives, actually started to make an Oxford comma standard practice.
Yea. I've been taught to not use a comma after 'and'. Example: "I have three dogs, George, Maria _and_ Thomas." See what I did there? I didn't use a comma before the 'and'
In Indonesian, the Oxford comma is mandatory and not using it would be ungrammatical. We just don't call it "Oxford comma" because it's just a regular comma to us.
@@F_A_F123 Yeah, that's what I meant. He said in the video that using the Oxford comma is considered a mistake in some languages. I was trying to say that the opposite is true Indonesian. I typed my comment when I was pausing at 6:15, so the word "ungrammatical" was the one that came to my mind.
As a Hebrew native speaker, in which the Oxford comma does not exist, I actually wish it did. It just makes it easier for me to read the sentence correctly on the first try!
As someone who has been a mild proponent of the Oxford comma for many years now, you have convinced me. I think you made some excellent points, and as soon as you brought up the fact that clarity is always better achieved by rephrasing the sentence, I realize that I have actually avoided using by doing exactly that almost every time it would've come up in my own writing, usually because I always feel like it creates really awkward sentence flow. But, I didn't really put it all together until you pointed it out here. Props. Also, I love your Tik-Toks, and it's weird that I found you on each of these platforms completely independently.
As someone who studies Japanese linguistics I don't think there's any real reason for Japanese to have a concept like an Oxford Comma. Strings of conjuncted nouns are not going to have the final "and" in Japanese - it's either no conjunction at all ("ringo, sakana, keiki tabeta" lit. they ate an apple, fish, cake) or a conjunction every time ("ringo-to sakana-to keiki-wo tabeta" lit. they ate an apple and fish and cake). In the writing system, only the first sentence would have commas, which are necessary to show the words are separate items, and all 3 would have them, so in this case the Oxford comma (in a very literal sense of the last comma in a list) is "mandatory". But this is not for ambiguity - there is no alternative to confuse with - this is just how commas are written.
In your first example, I don't think the last comma classifies as an Oxford comma since there is no "and" or "or" after it. The standard way to list items in Japanese is 「ＡやＢ、Ｃ、Ｄなど」 where it also wouldn't apply for the same reason. In official or legal writing, however, the form 「Ａ、Ｂ、Ｃ及びＤ」 seems to be used. Still not sure if you'd call it an "Oxford comma", but in this case, you _can_ say that a comma shouldn't be used between the penultimate item and the conjunction. I got a few hits googling 並列表記（へいれつひょうき） if you're interested.
An argument which you didn't include in the video (and to be honest, it's rare that it actually happens) is when one or both of the ending words contain an "and" in them, for example, "Tom and jerry and other cartoons" which would be made clearer when if an Oxford comma is used. But then again, simply restructuring the ordering fixes it without an Oxford.
But then sometimes you run into the problem of creating a space where there wouldn’t be one if it was said aloud. “I saw Tom and Jerry, and Pride and Prejudice.” might imply a space that might not actually exist. “I saw ‘Tom and Jerry’ and ‘Pride and Prejudice’.” could be better, but that also has the risk of seeming like the speaker said those words with emphasis.
I feel like consistent usage of ":" and "( )" will prevent confusion in cases where the oxford comma can create ambiguity. Also, you can't always change the order of a summation, there are situation where the arrangement of a list can matter. There can be a significance to who/what is named last of first. And as mentioned elsewhere in the comments, I think the Oxford comma is quite useful when you're listing variables that already have an "and" within them. But in the end, it's not a big deal of course
@@copbabycombo1311It irritates me how MOST people here are still saying the Oxford comma is the better choice. If you have read enough you should already know why it isn't, and this guy explained it wonderfully.
Well, my native language is Russian, and I can confirm that there is usually no comma around “и” (which means “and”). If it joins two sentences, such as “I run and you walk,” a comma is required, but if it separates two list entries and if it is singular (not “and so on, and so on”), there should be no comma.
I usually just like to put commas everywhere. I think hierarchy of information is good in general, and commas are a good way to group things together. I don't get why commas are seen as something to be minimized, like fuel costs in a logistic plan. I mean, sure, you are using a tiny bit of ink to print a comma, but it isn't the 1950s anymore. Additionally, commas being easy to miss becomes an upside here - it is hard for text to become visually _cluttered_ because of them. So, when I think about whether to add a comma here or there, I almost always veer on the side of caution. If you have to sin, don't underdo; overdo. (And yes, that is a weird localization of the Portuguese saying, "ante pecar no exagero do que na falta" - "better to sin in exaggeration than in scarcity".)
You would like Russian language with the amount of commas we use. And these commas do exactly what you said - group things together. That being said I do like that English doesn't have to use as much commas. Like, English has a much stricter sentence structure which allows to forego grouping parts of the sentence with commas.
i always used an oxford comma, because one time i accidentally included it in first grade and my friend said "yknow you don't need that, right?" and so, out of spite, i kept doing it. take that, khloe.
Yo i speak dutch and find not officially having an oxford comma really anyoing, because having it as an option in lists like: "we have made 2 teams of approximately equal strength: Alice and Bob and Charlie" doesn't actually let you know much about who's on what team except that bob's in the team of 2.
5:58 I am a brazilian, and as far as I know the oxford comma DOES exist in portuguese (at least brazilian portuguese). It just might not be referred by this name, but just like in english you can put a comma before the "&" and it is grammatically correct. I usually do not use it, but sometimes it feels more organized to put it when you are listing a long set of words.
Commas indicate a pause. When a person speaks, that person "speaks" the oxford comma because the person pauses. Nobody says "Bob (pause) JoeAndJeff." Everybody says it like "Bob (pause) Joe (pause) and Jeff." That's the main reason to use oxford commas, because they best represent how people speak.
The best solution is to put each element of the list on its own line with a trailing delimiter, new line and carriage return. Dealer's choice for tabs or spaces.
As a Brit, one of the earliest things I remember learning about grammar was not to put a comma next to a connective (or put a connective at the beginning of a sentence). Obviously it's more nuanced than that and there are times for both, especially the latter but still, it's hardly an "always, every time, without exception" type thing, even in American law which still inherits a lot of English law (especially English common law).
As a German speaker, I am quite confident that there are some cases in German where the Oxford comma can be used, while in other cases (most cases) it's incorrect. I don't remember the precise rules, though. However, wherever possible, I do try to use it as it simply seems fancier. 😅
I felt the same, and briefly looked the standard rules up. In the Amtliche Rechtschreibung, using a comma before ‚und‘, ‚oder‘ etc. in enumerations is explicitly prescribed by §72. Pretty sure quite a number of people use it though.
„Es wird vorgeschrieben, dass wir das tun müssen, und beobachtet, dass es postive Effekte hat“ Korrigiert mich wenn ich falsch liege aber das sollte eigentlich ein korrekter Satz sein.
@@TimmyBayconnDas ist in der Tat ein orthografisch mit der Amtlichen Rechtschreibung konformer Satz. Das Komma vor "und" ist aber kein Komma in Aufzählungen, sondern das schließende Komma des Nebensatzes "dass wir das tun müssen".
@@phscience797 Jap aber streng genommen ist dort ein Komma vor einem und. Ich weiß, dass das mit dem Nebensatz zusammenhängt, schließlich hab ich das ja absichtlich so kontrsuiert. Ist das nicht eigentlich einfach der erweiterte Infinitiv?
@@TimmyBayconn Ja klar, Komma vor "und" ist keineswegs verboten, und kommt ständig vor. Von einem erweiterten Infinitiv spräche man in der Schulgrammatik meines Wissens nur bei bestimmten Infinitivsätzen mit "zu". Der Infinitiv im Beispiel ("tun") wird ja von "müssen" ausgelöst und würde anders klassifiziert werden. Den Terminus der Schulgrammatik weiß ich gerade nicht, der Duden spricht vom "infinitiven Vollverb in Modalsätzen".
I just use the Oxford comma to convey the inflection of the sentence. It isn’t necessary, yes, it can cause ambiguity, yes, but, I just used an oxfords comma. Before the ‘but’. Or did I? One could argue that was a parenthetical comma around the ‘yes’. But what about the comma after ’but’? Not at all necessary, some might consider it incorrect grammar, but it conveyed a pause in the desired location.
"I have to buy bacon and eggs, pasta and meatballs, or cheese and crackers." Remove the oxford comma and it becomes unclear. Reordering it just makes it unclear in different ways. Use the oxford comma.
My guy you did not watch the video. A major point is that you wouldn't use language this ambiguous in regular speech, so why would you write like it? Just reorder the sentence in a way where it's easy to read, or - if you insist - use the Oxford comma, but this doesn't prove it's necessary.
@@Billiamwoods I'd absolutely say sentences like this in speech and it would be clear because the commas would be indicated by pauses. Additionally, written language has always been different than spoken language. Nobody speaks the same way they write. Overall I just don't understand the desire to get rid of the oxford comma. If it allows greater flexibility in my sentence structure how is that a bad thing? Sure I could mimic the effect most of the time if I rearrange the sentence but sometimes I have reasons for wanting to make a list in a certain order.
@@Quantum-yz9fc as a non-native English speaker, it's just feels wrong to use. There's no way I'll ever start using it, that's for sure. That being said, I don't structure my sentences in a way that warrants its use.
Interesting video, and I appreciate the dedication. The problem with no using an oxford comma for me is that the list being separated by commas the whole way, and then the last two item in the list not being separated by the comma, inherently links them. Carrey and a Stripper implies, to me, that they come as a package deal. This is why I always use them, and simply construct my senteces to be unambiguous with them. Where the senteces with oxford commas can be ambiguous sometimes (and are able to handily be rewritten to not be), I personally find that every time one is omitted it always causes confusion, no matter the sentence structure, because it distinguishes the last two items as "glued" together. Feels bad in the ol' brain.
@@algotkristoffersson15 That is _part_ of the comma's use, yes! The more important distinction to make is that commas fundamentally represent separations within a sentence. Commas can be used to indicate a sentence's structure being cut up and manipulated for emphasis: 1. "I went to the store yesterday." 2. "Yesterday, I went to the store." We do this to change the emphasis of when this event happened. The reason this changes the emphasis of the sentence is because English is an SVO language. This means that we put the subject first and the object last. Moving the time indicator to the front of the sentence (which requires a comma because it makes the sentence violate SVO rules) associates it with the subject, thus exemplifying it. Commas can also be used to insert separate sentences/assides within larger sentences: 1. "The ability is difficult to use and requires time to recover. The ability allows you to climb walls." 2. "The ability, which allows you to climb walls, is difficult to use and requires time to recover." In this example there are two sentences with the same subject. Using commas, the two _separate_ endings to the same subject are stitched together. This allows for the communication to be shorter while retaining clarity of the separation of ideas. To directly address your comment, while in a list you certainly could say it like this: "Barbra and Jeremy and Tiffany and Jacob and Elizabeth and Mark and Tilly and Miranda" Can you tell who the married couple in this list of party invites is? Here is the sentences using commas to separate the party invites: "Barbra, Jeremy, Tiffany, Jacob, Elizabeth, Mark and Tilly and Miranda" Can you tell who the married couple is? Now, with an oxford comma to fully separate the people in the list: "Barbra, Jeremy, Tiffany, Jacob, Elizabeth, Mark and Tilly, and Miranda" The married couple is Mark and Tilly! The separation distinction a comma provides is even seen while providing this list verbally. Each item on the list would be said with a slight pause between them: (' . ' Indicates a pause) "Barbra. Jeremy. Tiffany. Jacob." Etc However, once "Mark and Tilly" is reached, there _wouldn't_ be a verbal pause while saying all three words, and there _would_ be a verbal pause before saying "and Miranda": "Barbra. Jeremy. Tiffany. Jacob. Elizabeth. Mark and Tilly. and Miranda" While yes, the comma appears to act like a stand in for "and/or" in a list, the case is actually that the comma represents separation of the items and the final comma in the list is followed by "and/or" to indictate if the list is inclusive or exclusive.
Oh i didnt even know there exist a name for the comma before the "and". Im an italian native and sometimes i put this comma both speaking Italian or Spanish and i always know its so wrong doing it, even classified as a huge grammatical mistake, but somehow i feel more confortable putting that comma, and for sure i didnt know there was a "global concern" about this type of mistake. But i dont think is an "English language" issue cuz literally in every language you might find the same "ambiguity situation" (that its not ambiguous at all taking the grammar into account)
as a native Italian speaker, i have always hated the concept of the Oxford comma as it is considered a grammatical error in italian and really never felt the need to use it
i like how one of the articles you used has the “eats, shoots and leaves” example when it’s not about the oxford comma at all, but whether “eats” is part of the list (action preceding “shoots and leaves”) or as the verb the object of the sentence does (a panda eats bamboo shoots and leaves) where you don’t need a comma at all. anyway… i will still be using my oxford comma because i can’t imagine not doing so
@@adrianblake8876i don’t have the time stamp and i wish i could see that part again to know for sure. but yes, there’s a book called eats shoots and leaves. it’s a picture book that i loved as a kid, which is why this example stuck out to me! but like i explained, the distinction made in the book is not “eats, shoots and leaves.” it shows how commas change “eats shoots and leaves,” to “eats, shoots, and leaves.” because of that, it’s not about the oxford comma at all, but just how it’s important to use (or not use) commas in general
The oxford comma can be useful, and can allow for disambiguity without completely rewriting a sentence. It's not always useful, but it *can* be useful, and moreover, this entire discussion around it helps shed light on the problem of ambiguity in writing and the need for clarity in communication.
I am Turkish and in the Turkish language the Oxford comma is a common punctuation error. I was actually surprised when I learned that it had a name and could be used in formal contexts in English. Turkish has a different word order than English though.
Hiya! Dyslexic w/ a heavy pinch of ADHD here! I agree that it’s unnecessary, but it really helps me with lists. My brain is terrible at looking at lists and reading them beginning to end, so I auto-pilot skimming through them. Without it, the word before or after the “and” just disappears like magic. This only happens in short-form messaging though, and not in books or longer posts. This has been an Ad for the colon + bullet points when texting me a grocery list or food order! Love the vids! Fantastic work with such a new channel.
I'm just someone who is obscene with my comma usage, i put them wherever I feel there should be a pause and leave them out whenever I feel there shouldn't, grammatically correct or not. Often the pause the Oxford comma gives me feels more natural, and often it doesn't.
This video unlocked a core forgotten memory of mine when i moved to the states from korea when i was 11, and found the oxford comma awkward, offputting, and redundant, exactly like you said. But now i use it and find no awkwardness at all, it really is not an issue of clarity, it is more the issue of vibes, as in familiarity, style, etc.
I do think you need to have a standard. because for transcriptionist, stenographers, and closed captioners, changing how people speak isn't an option, and especially transcriptionist and stenographers they have to remain consistent in their use of grammar for constancy
Actually, in French, we use it, at least on the Swiss side. I started to use the Oxford comma because I learned to use it in Switzerland, but only in French. I speak Portuguese too and in my years in Brazilian school, I've never used it because I look at the "and" as the comma for the two last elements of a list. It makes more sense to me.
I am chaotic good because I use semicolons for lists instead of commas. It has the added benefit of no meddling from oxford because they are too afraid/cowardly to make an oxford semicolon.
In Hungarian we don't put a comma before "and" ( _és_ ) if it is used among parts of sentence with the same role (like listing things), but we do put a comma when "and" divide different clauses like in the following sentence: Bring your flashlight, and don't forget your tent at home.
My school taught that there shouldn't be a comma before the "and" with the final item in the list. However, I'm fairly sure that I put one there anyway because the lists always felt so awkward without one (~vibes~). Without it, the pacing of the sentence doesn't match how you read it aloud. And longer lists, especially with a lot of pairs, become so unclear otherwise. "He called Sarah and Jane, Steve and Eve, and even Clair and Derek!" And that list can't just be reordered to solve it. Ampersands could maybe help, or using semi-colons instead, but personally I dislike those options (again, ~vibes~). The whole sentence could probably be reconsidered, but it's the most straight-forward way. I didn't even learn that adding "the Oxford comma" was an actual thing (with a name and everything!) until way later! Clarity doesn't depend on the oxford comma, but the sentence flow certainly suffers without it. Interesting video!
@ Commas separate the items in a list, which using a lot of ‘and’s can do, but not all ‘and’s can or should be replaced with commas. In my example sentence, the pairs of people are implied to be different households because they are still grouped with ‘and’. Here’s another example sentence: “He ate scrambled eggs, a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and a banana.” The first ‘and’ is part of that list item and should not be replaced with a comma. I like the oxford comma because when you read the items in a list aloud, you usually pause after each item. Little pauses is something a comma can be used to indicate, so putting the oxford comma in matches the pace of how I’d read it out loud.
“We invited my mom, Mariah Carey and a Stripper” is no less ambiguous than “We invited my mom, Mariah Carey, and a Stripper” because without the oxford comma it can easily be read as your mother is BOTH. there’s the same ambiguity. this is really an issue with lists and commas in general and i think the oxford comma + colons and semicolons actually fix this really well because they tell you the next thing in the list’s function. Mom; Mariah Carey, and a stripper is two people, Mom: Mariah Carey and a Stripper is one person (no oxford commas in a two item list) Mom, Mariah Carey, and a Stripper is 3 people. this actually works for every sentence you showed on screen, assuming that someone having two names is acceptable which it is.
Idk man I don't really feel like "my mom: Mariah Carey and a stripper" is a natural utterence to me. If I did wanna say something like it I could say "my mom: Mariah carey (btw she's a stripper)" or something but I can't imagine interjecting with TWO roles.
Pitchfork music reviewer Mike Powell articulated an explanation very well in his review for Contra by Vampire Weekend (the guys who made the Oxford comma song): "In other words, what if all the products and symbols that gave your life meaning-and status-fell away? What if you replaced the organic toothpaste with Colgate? (Which still 'says something' about you, namely 'I don’t have the time, inclination, or money to give a shit about toothpaste.') Would life still look as rosy? Or, roughly, 'Who gives a fuck about an Oxford comma?". (The lyrics he's directly referencing are from the song California English: "Fake Philly cheesesteak but you use real toothpaste/’Cause if that Tom’s don’t work, if it just makes you worse/Would you still lose all of your faith in the good Earth?").
These are very good points. I don't know how I never noticed the fact that all the classic oxford comma examples could be clarified with a minor sentence rewording. It's very true that a comma is easy to miss when reading, so why rely solely on an oxford comma to make your sentences clear.
m from britain and we are taught very early on when learning to write that you never put a comma before the word "and". i didnt even know an Oxford comma was a thing before i came across this arguments.
Heyy, Arabic speaker here. In my experience, you can't use the Oxford comma in Arabic. I use it when writing in English (I just think it looks nice honestly lol), and I bascially copied the same punctuation rules from English to Arabic, and I was marked down every time I used an Oxford comma. I quickly learned to avoid it when writing in Arabic.
When I write lists, I’ve started to omit “and” entirely and exclusively use commas, because separating the last item of a list arbitrarily feels wrong to me.
The Oxford comma is more useful when one of the things in the list is multiple things or if the first thing is ambiguous in some trait “I live with my cats, Jacob, and Alexander” is an example because it is both 2 things and ambiguous as to what the cats names are “I’d like to thank my mom, Beyoncé and Jay Z” does not need one because ‘mom’ is singular
One argument I wish I addressed in the video given that I’ve seen it a number of times in the comments: The OC is better stylistically because it indicates where you’d naturally take a pause in the sentence.
1. You do not write a comma every single time you take a pause. If you did, this, is how I would write this sentence. I would put a comma, right, here. Which, looks weird!
2. It’s also completely natural to not take a pause when listing those last two items (especially if the list is longer than 3). Find videos of people listing things and you’ll see it’s also incredibly normal to group those last two items together without a pause.
I will concede the point though that if *every single item* in the list has an “and” in it (like “Ben and Jerry” and “Tom and Jerry”) then an OC would help. But you could also just use an & to clarify things.
oxford commas just taste really good
@@XaviLR they what now
@@ballsalsda they taste good didn't you here the man!?
1. How tf do you talk if you pause like that?! After an introductory, you pause after the next word??? You pause before and after the word “right” for some reason?!?!!? Stress isn’t the same as pauses!
2. Maybe it’s the lack of a serial comma that is causing this. I see no reason to randomly speed up at the end of a list.
3. A lot of the examples you gave could be easily fixed by adding different punctuation (parentheses or dashes) instead of commas. Granted, it looks uglier, but for the average person, it’s easier than reformatting the entire sentence.
4. Many of the example languages you gave also happen to give objects genders, which is one of the stupidest ideas of language in general, and the lack of it is one of the few saving graces of the English language, so don’t use the fact that many languages have a similar trait as a sign that that trait is a good, helpful thing. Also, others, like Arabic and Chinese, didn’t use a standardized punctuation until recently from Western influence.
Bad argument, pausing for emphasis, and pausing for flow, are unique sentence points. The OC isn't always necessary, but I'd much prefer to add punctuation to my sentence over changing the structure.
Having my entire mental model of the oxford comma broken down to "it's just vibes" was not what I was expecting
I've always been an advocate of the Oxford comma, but I feel compelled to concede to the case you make. Better wording has more power to disambiguate than an easy-to-miss comma.
I feel similarly.
@@Maxzes_ I don't think either of us "care" as much as you think we do, but there are definitely people who are very passionate about many things, grammar and spelling included.
likewise
the only use of an oxford comma is to absolve the author of the responsibility of sorting a 3-item list.
if you're advocating for it then it means you're actually too stupid to determine how to sort a 3-item list.
I would be ashamed to admit to ever advocating for it, if I were you.
@@sumdumbmickPersonally, I just like how it looks 😊
I may not need it, but I want it
, and i know what you mean
@@steviecollins8425 ,and what about two ‘and’s in the same list (what’s the verdict on that)
You definitely need it
@@tickleman127explain
@@tickleman127 nuh uh
As a German, who was disciplined never to use a comma before the word ‘and,’ I’ve loooved the Oxford comma ever since knowing it. It gives me freedom. It’s a rebellion against German
The rule is not as strict though.
Zu meinem Geburtstag kommen meine Eltern, meine Cousine, ein Überraschungsgast, auf den ich sehr gespannt bin, und meine Schwester.
Although the case is basically the same: You'd probably restructure the sentence for more clarity, e.g. by putting the surprise guest at the end.
@@McRusenThe rule can't be applied here because "auf den ich sehr gespannt bin" is a subordinate clause (Nebensatz) which is separated by commas.
@@timcordes4762 That's exactly my point? 😅 You can't blindly apply "no comma before 'and'", even in an enumeration, because there are exceptions. Given in an example.
Yeah, in Denmark we learn the same thing
Same as a Spanish speaker, as soon as I learned about the Oxford coma I adopted it
I sometimes use an oxford comma when listing things that include the word 'and' in the name of the item itself, for example "Artists use pencils, chalk, pen and ink, and other materials." the comma here just makes it a bit easier to read and make sense of the list, but an alternative is replacing the 'and' in "pen and ink" with & and then omitting the comma, "Artists use graphite, chalk, pen & ink and other materials." both are valid but I agree it's not going to decide any court cases, a badly written document won't be fixed by a single comma like how an amputated limb won't be fixed with a band-aid.
The oxford comma is still not really necessary - you could just rearrange the list. "Artists use pen and ink, chalk, pencils and other materials"
@@cowzee Honestly, you don't even need to do that:
"Artists use pencils, chalk, pen and ink and other materials"
I would argue that that sentence is still very clear, and that "pen and ink" is still conveyed as a unified category. If the rule is that the last conjunction acts as the final list separator, then that's exactly how you would read it.
@@Crazy_Diamond_75 oh but that double 'and' does weird things to my brain, none of them good 😅 There something about the Oxford comma that just breaks up the sentence so nicely, especially if you're thinking about reading out loud. Maybe it's because I come from a background of theatre and working with children where I do a lot of reading out loud that those commas feel so essential to me... I think a good way to rephrase it would be "Artists use graphite, chalk, pen and ink, as well as other materials" pretty much solves the problem of the comma and does away with the double 'and'.
I agree, maybe it's not necessary but to my eyes it makes many lists read nicer. Like if you're listing a guest list:
We're inviting Sarah, Anthony, Sam and his kids, Rebecca, and Alex.
It just feels like it provides better delineation and rhythm to the sentence. And it maybe there isn't *true* ambiguity, but it does explicitly differentiate something in the list as an associated pairing.
And while these are specific examples, it's not exactly a complicated grammar rule to apply universally.
@@LilBoyHexley i understand that this does, clear up the sentence, but phrases with "and" in them are usually saved for the end of the list or they sound weird, as it does here, i would end that list with "sam and his kids" because the and already implies a certain finality and throwing more list items after that is a bit confusing and doesnt sound great
I just like the oxford comma because it seems to more naturally indicate where you actually pause in a list. Writing something like "I invited Alex, Sam and Chris" makes me read it as if there's no rest between the word "Sam" and the word "and," which seems odd. Ultimately it's definitely just a case of preference though
Same, I'm a super fast reader but I always pull up short whenever that comma is missing, generally have to reread the sentence before I move on. Totally throws off pacing. When he said in the video that (paraphrase) 'we see it all the time and don't notice it' I was like... no I notice it constantly and it throws me off every time. I'm not saying it's necessary or that reworking sentences isn't the best option, but it does make reading clearer to me, personally, when it's present.
Same, I like it for the flow
THIS! The presence or absence of the comma changes how I hear the sentence in my head. No comma = no pause, which can sound weird.
It can lead to a 'missing stair' effect in the sentence for me.
And everyone that grew up without it will say that it feels redundant because the "and" is already replacing the pause therefore you don't need one, once again, just a stylistic choice, which doesn't mean it's wrong, just not correct or better either.
Im feeling very vindicated right now. I remember being explicitly taught not to use an oxford comma in primary school because its not necessary and then seeing those annoying memes on Instagram about the eggs, toast and orange juice, and thinking how would there be any ambiguity in that sentence unless people really actually put orange juice on toast in America and talk to it
The only people who WOULD find these sentences ambiguous are Americans imo 😭 like Yuval said, no other language or even country practices the use of the Oxford comma and never have i seen any confusion when a sentence lacked it...
In Greek, as you said, it's considered a grammar mistake to use a comma before "and".
However, the impact of American English in our everyday lives, actually started to make an Oxford comma standard practice.
Same in Italy!
Rather an orthographic mistake.
@@polenfrej4364 Grammar mistake, I am pretty sure! Orthographic mistakes are vowel-related.
Yea. I've been taught to not use a comma after 'and'. Example:
"I have three dogs, George, Maria _and_ Thomas."
See what I did there? I didn't use a comma before the 'and'
@@Hero_My_Beloved Precisely!
In Indonesian, the Oxford comma is mandatory and not using it would be ungrammatical. We just don't call it "Oxford comma" because it's just a regular comma to us.
It wouldn't be ungrammatical. You seem to not understand what grammar is. It would be orthographically wrong (by accepted orthography).
@@F_A_F123 Yeah, that's what I meant. He said in the video that using the Oxford comma is considered a mistake in some languages. I was trying to say that the opposite is true Indonesian.
I typed my comment when I was pausing at 6:15, so the word "ungrammatical" was the one that came to my mind.
I live, laugh, and love the Oxford comma.
i have now started a yuval ben-hayun hate blog
As a Hebrew native speaker, in which the Oxford comma does not exist, I actually wish it did. It just makes it easier for me to read the sentence correctly on the first try!
As someone who has been a mild proponent of the Oxford comma for many years now, you have convinced me. I think you made some excellent points, and as soon as you brought up the fact that clarity is always better achieved by rephrasing the sentence, I realize that I have actually avoided using by doing exactly that almost every time it would've come up in my own writing, usually because I always feel like it creates really awkward sentence flow. But, I didn't really put it all together until you pointed it out here. Props.
Also, I love your Tik-Toks, and it's weird that I found you on each of these platforms completely independently.
As someone who studies Japanese linguistics I don't think there's any real reason for Japanese to have a concept like an Oxford Comma. Strings of conjuncted nouns are not going to have the final "and" in Japanese - it's either no conjunction at all ("ringo, sakana, keiki tabeta" lit. they ate an apple, fish, cake) or a conjunction every time ("ringo-to sakana-to keiki-wo tabeta" lit. they ate an apple and fish and cake). In the writing system, only the first sentence would have commas, which are necessary to show the words are separate items, and all 3 would have them, so in this case the Oxford comma (in a very literal sense of the last comma in a list) is "mandatory". But this is not for ambiguity - there is no alternative to confuse with - this is just how commas are written.
In your first example, I don't think the last comma classifies as an Oxford comma since there is no "and" or "or" after it.
The standard way to list items in Japanese is 「ＡやＢ、Ｃ、Ｄなど」 where it also wouldn't apply for the same reason.
In official or legal writing, however, the form 「Ａ、Ｂ、Ｃ及びＤ」 seems to be used. Still not sure if you'd call it an "Oxford comma", but in this case, you _can_ say that a comma shouldn't be used between the penultimate item and the conjunction.
I got a few hits googling 並列表記（へいれつひょうき） if you're interested.
An argument which you didn't include in the video (and to be honest, it's rare that it actually happens) is when one or both of the ending words contain an "and" in them, for example, "Tom and jerry and other cartoons" which would be made clearer when if an Oxford comma is used.
But then again, simply restructuring the ordering fixes it without an Oxford.
But then sometimes you run into the problem of creating a space where there wouldn’t be one if it was said aloud.
“I saw Tom and Jerry, and Pride and Prejudice.” might imply a space that might not actually exist.
“I saw ‘Tom and Jerry’ and ‘Pride and Prejudice’.” could be better, but that also has the risk of seeming like the speaker said those words with emphasis.
@@forbidden-cyrillic-handle It can be written like that, but most of the time it isn't, it's more of a choice.
I feel like consistent usage of ":" and "( )" will prevent confusion in cases where the oxford comma can create ambiguity.
Also, you can't always change the order of a summation, there are situation where the arrangement of a list can matter. There can be a significance to who/what is named last of first.
And as mentioned elsewhere in the comments, I think the Oxford comma is quite useful when you're listing variables that already have an "and" within them.
But in the end, it's not a big deal of course
tbf in an ordered list, you may not end up using “and” or even commas
Your second point is entirely irrelevant and if I have to explain why then you need to rewatch the video.
@@copbabycombo1311It irritates me how MOST people here are still saying the Oxford comma is the better choice. If you have read enough you should already know why it isn't, and this guy explained it wonderfully.
Just word your sentences better
use "and", at the beginning, of every item, in a list
Take a drink every time yuval says "Oxford comma"
I tried to, I couldn't get into the first minute and had to stop
In Australia we are taught it’s incorrect to use a comma at the end of a list because “and” is there
Well, my native language is Russian, and I can confirm that there is usually no comma around “и” (which means “and”). If it joins two sentences, such as “I run and you walk,” a comma is required, but if it separates two list entries and if it is singular (not “and so on, and so on”), there should be no comma.
I usually just like to put commas everywhere. I think hierarchy of information is good in general, and commas are a good way to group things together. I don't get why commas are seen as something to be minimized, like fuel costs in a logistic plan. I mean, sure, you are using a tiny bit of ink to print a comma, but it isn't the 1950s anymore. Additionally, commas being easy to miss becomes an upside here - it is hard for text to become visually _cluttered_ because of them. So, when I think about whether to add a comma here or there, I almost always veer on the side of caution. If you have to sin, don't underdo; overdo.
(And yes, that is a weird localization of the Portuguese saying, "ante pecar no exagero do que na falta" - "better to sin in exaggeration than in scarcity".)
You would like Russian language with the amount of commas we use. And these commas do exactly what you said - group things together. That being said I do like that English doesn't have to use as much commas. Like, English has a much stricter sentence structure which allows to forego grouping parts of the sentence with commas.
i always used an oxford comma, because one time i accidentally included it in first grade and my friend said "yknow you don't need that, right?" and so, out of spite, i kept doing it. take that, khloe.
Yo i speak dutch and find not officially having an oxford comma really anyoing, because having it as an option in lists like: "we have made 2 teams of approximately equal strength: Alice and Bob and Charlie" doesn't actually let you know much about who's on what team except that bob's in the team of 2.
Oxford commas are for list 3 items or longer, so adding a comma to yours is technically not an Oxford comma (though it does help clarity).
That's poorly constructed sentence.
I put the comma if I feel that it reduces ambiguity, and I don’t put it if it increases ambiguity.
Sometimes it is just fun to to watch a video about something I do not care about and have never heard of.
5:58 I am a brazilian, and as far as I know the oxford comma DOES exist in portuguese (at least brazilian portuguese). It just might not be referred by this name, but just like in english you can put a comma before the "&" and it is grammatically correct. I usually do not use it, but sometimes it feels more organized to put it when you are listing a long set of words.
Honestly, with comma being my second favourite punctuation mark, I just find the Oxford comma neat
it’s not even about clarity i just need it to be there aesthetically
I’ve always believed this but I never knew how to articulate it. Thank you Yuval!!
Reading anything without an oxford comma jumps out at me and it always has, but I must concede that your points are good
I just write it reflexively at this point. It would be more of a challenge to try and stop myself from using it.
Commas indicate a pause. When a person speaks, that person "speaks" the oxford comma because the person pauses. Nobody says "Bob (pause) JoeAndJeff." Everybody says it like "Bob (pause) Joe (pause) and Jeff." That's the main reason to use oxford commas, because they best represent how people speak.
You don't write a comma every time you pause.
Yeah, that's how I usually use commas lol
Just as many people don’t pause AT ALL
Most people don’t pause in lists at all. They just say them like any other sentence.
The best solution is to put each element of the list on its own line with a trailing delimiter, new line and carriage return. Dealer's choice for tabs or spaces.
I like the oxford comma bc i like when what im writing matches how im saying it in my head
Hope you start doing more YT videos and get a good amount of your TikTok audience to port over. Wishing you the best Yuval
6:47 Oh, you're my favorite TikTok linguist! I'm glad you're on RUclips as well.
Great content on both platforms!
Using an oxford comma is akin to starting a sentence with the word "So." Wholly unnecessary.
As a Brit, one of the earliest things I remember learning about grammar was not to put a comma next to a connective (or put a connective at the beginning of a sentence). Obviously it's more nuanced than that and there are times for both, especially the latter but still, it's hardly an "always, every time, without exception" type thing, even in American law which still inherits a lot of English law (especially English common law).
"I'd like to thank my parents, my dog and Jesus Christ."
For Turkish, they always thaught us the word "ve" (and) is itself a comma, so it's unnecessary to double it.
I like using the Oxford comma to punctuate the pause between and and the 2nd last item.
As a German speaker, I am quite confident that there are some cases in German where the Oxford comma can be used, while in other cases (most cases) it's incorrect. I don't remember the precise rules, though. However, wherever possible, I do try to use it as it simply seems fancier. 😅
I felt the same, and briefly looked the standard rules up. In the Amtliche Rechtschreibung, using a comma before ‚und‘, ‚oder‘ etc. in enumerations is explicitly prescribed by §72. Pretty sure quite a number of people use it though.
„Es wird vorgeschrieben, dass wir das tun müssen, und beobachtet, dass es postive Effekte hat“
Korrigiert mich wenn ich falsch liege aber das sollte eigentlich ein korrekter Satz sein.
@@TimmyBayconnDas ist in der Tat ein orthografisch mit der Amtlichen Rechtschreibung konformer Satz. Das Komma vor "und" ist aber kein Komma in Aufzählungen, sondern das schließende Komma des Nebensatzes "dass wir das tun müssen".
@@phscience797 Jap aber streng genommen ist dort ein Komma vor einem und. Ich weiß, dass das mit dem Nebensatz zusammenhängt, schließlich hab ich das ja absichtlich so kontrsuiert.
Ist das nicht eigentlich einfach der erweiterte Infinitiv?
@@TimmyBayconn Ja klar, Komma vor "und" ist keineswegs verboten, und kommt ständig vor.
Von einem erweiterten Infinitiv spräche man in der Schulgrammatik meines Wissens nur bei bestimmten Infinitivsätzen mit "zu". Der Infinitiv im Beispiel ("tun") wird ja von "müssen" ausgelöst und würde anders klassifiziert werden. Den Terminus der Schulgrammatik weiß ich gerade nicht, der Duden spricht vom "infinitiven Vollverb in Modalsätzen".
I just use the Oxford comma to convey the inflection of the sentence. It isn’t necessary, yes, it can cause ambiguity, yes, but, I just used an oxfords comma. Before the ‘but’. Or did I? One could argue that was a parenthetical comma around the ‘yes’. But what about the comma after ’but’? Not at all necessary, some might consider it incorrect grammar, but it conveyed a pause in the desired location.
ive never been so stunned by reason for why something im deeply passionate about isnt actually necessary, but you do make a great point
he bought
: eggs
, butter
, milk
& bread
.
he bought
: eggs
, butter
, milk
,& bread
.
i no longer like oxford commas.
why the weird formatting?
google "The Case for Comma-Leading Lists" and "fogus blog community standards".
Unacceptable, the Oxford comma is crucially important.
(It's not as if I was a german native and in German Oxford commas aren't a thing)
"I have to buy bacon and eggs, pasta and meatballs, or cheese and crackers."
Remove the oxford comma and it becomes unclear. Reordering it just makes it unclear in different ways.
Use the oxford comma.
My guy you did not watch the video. A major point is that you wouldn't use language this ambiguous in regular speech, so why would you write like it? Just reorder the sentence in a way where it's easy to read, or - if you insist - use the Oxford comma, but this doesn't prove it's necessary.
@@Billiamwoods I'd absolutely say sentences like this in speech and it would be clear because the commas would be indicated by pauses. Additionally, written language has always been different than spoken language. Nobody speaks the same way they write.
Overall I just don't understand the desire to get rid of the oxford comma. If it allows greater flexibility in my sentence structure how is that a bad thing? Sure I could mimic the effect most of the time if I rearrange the sentence but sometimes I have reasons for wanting to make a list in a certain order.
@@Quantum-yz9fc as a non-native English speaker, it's just feels wrong to use. There's no way I'll ever start using it, that's for sure. That being said, I don't structure my sentences in a way that warrants its use.
Interesting video, and I appreciate the dedication. The problem with no using an oxford comma for me is that the list being separated by commas the whole way, and then the last two item in the list not being separated by the comma, inherently links them. Carrey and a Stripper implies, to me, that they come as a package deal. This is why I always use them, and simply construct my senteces to be unambiguous with them.
Where the senteces with oxford commas can be ambiguous sometimes (and are able to handily be rewritten to not be), I personally find that every time one is omitted it always causes confusion, no matter the sentence structure, because it distinguishes the last two items as "glued" together. Feels bad in the ol' brain.
But the whole point of the commas in a list is to stand in for “and”s and “or”s
@@algotkristoffersson15 That is _part_ of the comma's use, yes! The more important distinction to make is that commas fundamentally represent separations within a sentence.
Commas can be used to indicate a sentence's structure being cut up and manipulated for emphasis:
1. "I went to the store yesterday."
2. "Yesterday, I went to the store."
We do this to change the emphasis of when this event happened. The reason this changes the emphasis of the sentence is because English is an SVO language. This means that we put the subject first and the object last. Moving the time indicator to the front of the sentence (which requires a comma because it makes the sentence violate SVO rules) associates it with the subject, thus exemplifying it.
Commas can also be used to insert separate sentences/assides within larger sentences:
1. "The ability is difficult to use and requires time to recover. The ability allows you to climb walls."
2. "The ability, which allows you to climb walls, is difficult to use and requires time to recover."
In this example there are two sentences with the same subject. Using commas, the two _separate_ endings to the same subject are stitched together. This allows for the communication to be shorter while retaining clarity of the separation of ideas.
To directly address your comment, while in a list you certainly could say it like this:
"Barbra and Jeremy and Tiffany and Jacob and Elizabeth and Mark and Tilly and Miranda"
Can you tell who the married couple in this list of party invites is?
Here is the sentences using commas to separate the party invites:
"Barbra, Jeremy, Tiffany, Jacob, Elizabeth, Mark and Tilly and Miranda"
Can you tell who the married couple is?
Now, with an oxford comma to fully separate the people in the list:
"Barbra, Jeremy, Tiffany, Jacob, Elizabeth, Mark and Tilly, and Miranda"
The married couple is Mark and Tilly! The separation distinction a comma provides is even seen while providing this list verbally. Each item on the list would be said with a slight pause between them:
(' . ' Indicates a pause)
"Barbra. Jeremy. Tiffany. Jacob." Etc
However, once "Mark and Tilly" is reached, there _wouldn't_ be a verbal pause while saying all three words, and there _would_ be a verbal pause before saying "and Miranda":
"Barbra. Jeremy. Tiffany. Jacob. Elizabeth. Mark and Tilly. and Miranda"
While yes, the comma appears to act like a stand in for "and/or" in a list, the case is actually that the comma represents separation of the items and the final comma in the list is followed by "and/or" to indictate if the list is inclusive or exclusive.
Oh i didnt even know there exist a name for the comma before the "and". Im an italian native and sometimes i put this comma both speaking Italian or Spanish and i always know its so wrong doing it, even classified as a huge grammatical mistake, but somehow i feel more confortable putting that comma, and for sure i didnt know there was a "global concern" about this type of mistake. But i dont think is an "English language" issue cuz literally in every language you might find the same "ambiguity situation" (that its not ambiguous at all taking the grammar into account)
Oh we're doing this again?
as a native Italian speaker, i have always hated the concept of the Oxford comma as it is considered a grammatical error in italian and really never felt the need to use it
I'd love to see more videos uploaded on the channel
Me too!
i like how one of the articles you used has the “eats, shoots and leaves” example when it’s not about the oxford comma at all, but whether “eats” is part of the list (action preceding “shoots and leaves”) or as the verb the object of the sentence does (a panda eats bamboo shoots and leaves) where you don’t need a comma at all. anyway… i will still be using my oxford comma because i can’t imagine not doing so
Yes, I can’t imagine a scenario where you wouldn’t be able to tell that from context
It's probably just the name of the book from which the excerpt was taken from...
@@adrianblake8876i don’t have the time stamp and i wish i could see that part again to know for sure. but yes, there’s a book called eats shoots and leaves. it’s a picture book that i loved as a kid, which is why this example stuck out to me! but like i explained, the distinction made in the book is not “eats, shoots and leaves.” it shows how commas change “eats shoots and leaves,” to “eats, shoots, and leaves.” because of that, it’s not about the oxford comma at all, but just how it’s important to use (or not use) commas in general
Funnily, in Italian Grammar it actually is a rule to NOT use it before an “and”.
I love how vigilant people are when it comes to defending commas. What an interesting and wholesome thing to defend 😂
It's the shopping cart question for writing. Do you put the comma there, even if you're not required to?
in primary school (elementary) i was taught against the oxford comma in britain and that the comma was just incorrect
The oxford comma can be useful, and can allow for disambiguity without completely rewriting a sentence. It's not always useful, but it *can* be useful, and moreover, this entire discussion around it helps shed light on the problem of ambiguity in writing and the need for clarity in communication.
Ambiguity really isn't a problem though
Thank you. Now I don’t have to argue it, I can just drop a link to this video.
I am Turkish and in the Turkish language the Oxford comma is a common punctuation error. I was actually surprised when I learned that it had a name and could be used in formal contexts in English. Turkish has a different word order than English though.
Omitting the serial comma is like walking around with your shoelaces untied or your fly open.
Hiya! Dyslexic w/ a heavy pinch of ADHD here! I agree that it’s unnecessary, but it really helps me with lists. My brain is terrible at looking at lists and reading them beginning to end, so I auto-pilot skimming through them. Without it, the word before or after the “and” just disappears like magic. This only happens in short-form messaging though, and not in books or longer posts.
This has been an Ad for the colon + bullet points when texting me a grocery list or food order!
Love the vids! Fantastic work with such a new channel.
That is a hell of a creative example of the use of an oxford comma and to make a point of not to use it.
"if you really wanna, leave out the oxford comma, keep in mind that it's okay"
just use the oxford comma
if i pronounce it with an oxford comma, I'll use an oxford comma when writing
I'm just someone who is obscene with my comma usage, i put them wherever I feel there should be a pause and leave them out whenever I feel there shouldn't, grammatically correct or not. Often the pause the Oxford comma gives me feels more natural, and often it doesn't.
I never thought of the interrupter use of commas as a reason not to use the Oxford comma
I was taught to use an oxford comma, and it feels weird not to use it.
RESPECT THE OXFORD COMMA
This video unlocked a core forgotten memory of mine when i moved to the states from korea when i was 11, and found the oxford comma awkward, offputting, and redundant, exactly like you said. But now i use it and find no awkwardness at all, it really is not an issue of clarity, it is more the issue of vibes, as in familiarity, style, etc.
the Oxford comma looks clean and makes me happy
Yeh I was confused because In Ireland we were taught that it was actually wrong to use it
I prefer it because it sounds closer to how you would speak a list.
I do think you need to have a standard. because for transcriptionist, stenographers, and closed captioners, changing how people speak isn't an option, and especially transcriptionist and stenographers they have to remain consistent in their use of grammar for constancy
Actually, in French, we use it, at least on the Swiss side. I started to use the Oxford comma because I learned to use it in Switzerland, but only in French. I speak Portuguese too and in my years in Brazilian school, I've never used it because I look at the "and" as the comma for the two last elements of a list. It makes more sense to me.
Why did you have to make such a BANGER list of movies tho??? 27 seconds into the video and you've earned a subscriber
I am chaotic good because I use semicolons for lists instead of commas. It has the added benefit of no meddling from oxford because they are too afraid/cowardly to make an oxford semicolon.
Omg this was so well explained and edited!!
Thank you for adressing my issue in the first 3 seconds. You're so f-ing right about it, im upset.
I don’t use the Oxford comma because it always adds clarity; I use it because I like using lots of comma
In Hungarian we don't put a comma before "and" ( _és_ ) if it is used among parts of sentence with the same role (like listing things), but we do put a comma when "and" divide different clauses like in the following sentence: Bring your flashlight, and don't forget your tent at home.
My school taught that there shouldn't be a comma before the "and" with the final item in the list. However, I'm fairly sure that I put one there anyway because the lists always felt so awkward without one (~vibes~). Without it, the pacing of the sentence doesn't match how you read it aloud. And longer lists, especially with a lot of pairs, become so unclear otherwise.
"He called Sarah and Jane, Steve and Eve, and even Clair and Derek!"
And that list can't just be reordered to solve it. Ampersands could maybe help, or using semi-colons instead, but personally I dislike those options (again, ~vibes~). The whole sentence could probably be reconsidered, but it's the most straight-forward way.
I didn't even learn that adding "the Oxford comma" was an actual thing (with a name and everything!) until way later!
Clarity doesn't depend on the oxford comma, but the sentence flow certainly suffers without it.
Interesting video!
But the point of commas in lists is literally to stand in for copies of “and”
@ Commas separate the items in a list, which using a lot of ‘and’s can do, but not all ‘and’s can or should be replaced with commas. In my example sentence, the pairs of people are implied to be different households because they are still grouped with ‘and’. Here’s another example sentence: “He ate scrambled eggs, a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and a banana.” The first ‘and’ is part of that list item and should not be replaced with a comma.
I like the oxford comma because when you read the items in a list aloud, you usually pause after each item. Little pauses is something a comma can be used to indicate, so putting the oxford comma in matches the pace of how I’d read it out loud.
I make lists using only semicolons, even when my list elements don't contain commas, to piss of both Oxford comma supporters and enemies!
To quote wise man who gives the fuck about Oxford comma I’ve seen those english dramas to
I concede, the Oxford comma isn't necessary. Great argument!
this is reawakening the primal rage i felt when we first got to the comma lessons in my primary school english classes (im mexican and autistic)
Just replace the "and" with a comma like in programming languages. It's much better, more clear, amazing. /j
“We invited my mom, Mariah Carey and a Stripper” is no less ambiguous than “We invited my mom, Mariah Carey, and a Stripper” because without the oxford comma it can easily be read as your mother is BOTH. there’s the same ambiguity. this is really an issue with lists and commas in general and i think the oxford comma + colons and semicolons actually fix this really well because they tell you the next thing in the list’s function. Mom; Mariah Carey, and a stripper is two people, Mom: Mariah Carey and a Stripper is one person (no oxford commas in a two item list) Mom, Mariah Carey, and a Stripper is 3 people. this actually works for every sentence you showed on screen, assuming that someone having two names is acceptable which it is.
Idk man I don't really feel like "my mom: Mariah Carey and a stripper" is a natural utterence to me.
If I did wanna say something like it I could say "my mom: Mariah carey (btw she's a stripper)" or something but I can't imagine interjecting with TWO roles.
Please Yuval, one more video- i can't keep alternating between the two
Pitchfork music reviewer Mike Powell articulated an explanation very well in his review for Contra by Vampire Weekend (the guys who made the Oxford comma song):
"In other words, what if all the products and symbols that gave your life meaning-and status-fell away? What if you replaced the organic toothpaste with Colgate? (Which still 'says something' about you, namely 'I don’t have the time, inclination, or money to give a shit about toothpaste.') Would life still look as rosy? Or, roughly, 'Who gives a fuck about an Oxford comma?".
(The lyrics he's directly referencing are from the song California English: "Fake Philly cheesesteak but you use real toothpaste/’Cause if that Tom’s don’t work, if it just makes you worse/Would you still lose all of your faith in the good Earth?").
These are very good points. I don't know how I never noticed the fact that all the classic oxford comma examples could be clarified with a minor sentence rewording.
It's very true that a comma is easy to miss when reading, so why rely solely on an oxford comma to make your sentences clear.
中国人 is a Chinese person, not the language. The language is 中文。
m from britain and we are taught very early on when learning to write that you never put a comma before the word "and". i didnt even know an Oxford comma was a thing before i came across this arguments.
I’m Irish and we were always taught in school not to have a comma before the “and” in a list, like we were told it was wrong
Heyy, Arabic speaker here. In my experience, you can't use the Oxford comma in Arabic. I use it when writing in English (I just think it looks nice honestly lol), and I bascially copied the same punctuation rules from English to Arabic, and I was marked down every time I used an Oxford comma. I quickly learned to avoid it when writing in Arabic.
I’ve heard you speak about this on tiktok already but this video was really well done and I watched the whole thing
When I write lists, I’ve started to omit “and” entirely and exclusively use commas, because separating the last item of a list arbitrarily feels wrong to me.
I will never bother anyone for whether or not they use the Oxford comma, but I will always use the Oxford comma
The Oxford comma is more useful when one of the things in the list is multiple things or if the first thing is ambiguous in some trait
“I live with my cats, Jacob, and Alexander” is an example because it is both 2 things and ambiguous as to what the cats names are
“I’d like to thank my mom, Beyoncé and Jay Z” does not need one because ‘mom’ is singular