I had to step away after my comment but I also wanted to drop this idea on you. Marika is the spirit tuner that Hewg is indebted to. Shamans are called shrine maidens in the japanese and given what shrine maidens do irl, it makes me believe that the shamans were the original spirit tuners. Then you look at Roderika who (imo) is probably a spitting image of young marika, who came from outside the lands between and has a gift for spirit tuning and things start to make sense. If you take someone like Roderika, who's young, beautiful, gifted in the spirit arts and then have them raised in a culture thats fully into the spirit arts and suddenly it makes sense why people thought they were divine in nature.
Really refreshing seeing someone not supposing that Miquella is a horrible cruel villain. Also think that Radahn accepted (was not forced) being Miquella consort (and becoming the Lord just like his idol Godfrey) at first, but after Miquella rejected the Golden Order, he didn’t want to uphold his part of the vow (so Malenia tried to force him)
I want to do an "In Defense" of Miquella of video, or something like that. I don't understand some of the comments Im reading or the videos I am seeing ascribing him as this be all end all bad guy. It almost feels like he is getting this characterization because the final boss fight felt like it came out of left field and is really hard.
@@JackisaMimic yes please do it, definitely going to watch it! Like you said it seems that people from the first day the dlc was released they collected agreed that Miquella is evil, no nuances, and I don’t see a lot of new perspectives and theories… Maybe is bc most were expecting to side with Miquella until the end and felt betrayed by the final boss fight 😂
I think the biggest question mark right now is Radahn's true motivation and willingness to become Miquella's consort at the point in time we confront them. It's clear that at some point both parties are aware of the vow for Radahn to become consort, but when and/or why is left ambiguous. The biggest reason I believe Radahn was opposed Miquella at the end is because of the thematic parallels to Miquella abandoning St. Trina. Radahn clearly dearly loves his horse Leonard, to the point where he learned gravity magic to forever ride him even as he's lost his sanity to rot; that par of his humanity was in left in tact. To ride just as one of his mentors and war brother Gaius, a legless albinauric. Then we find the Putrescent Knight, a congealed mass that overtly takes the shape of a man and horse, in the same pit as St. Trina, both respective representations of Miquella and Radahn's love and humanity... there are too much thematic through lines for it to be a coincidence.
It just boils down to " is he an antagonist who has some parallels with griffith?" The answer would more or less be yes. He's not literally griffith after all😂 The even simpler form of that question is "Is he a bad guy or a good guy?" I know the debate would last an eternity, and we wouldn't agree in the end, but seeing many of his means and him trying to justify them by the ends, i'd say he's grey at best. Evil at worst.
My head cannon goes like this. The Numen are from 'another world'. They arrived upon the world on which the Lands Between, Lands of Shadow (our world) exists via giant spaceships that appear to us as massive rune-covered coffins. The Numen were not like the Hornsent that occupied this region, and as a result their special powers appeared as magic, occult etc. As a result, they were called Shaman. They relocated to a village of their own, a place where they could prosper without fear of being attacked, farmed into jars etc because one of their traits as Shaman/Numen was an inherent ability to graft or be grafted. They were 'built different', more pliable, more compliant. Down the line, this could explain Godrick's ability to graft. And if all of Marika's descendents are also Numen, could explain their own great powers. The Hornsent staged a genocide against what was clearly a more powerful race. And wiped out all but one, in the shape of Marika. Anything of a high enough technology would surely be consided magic, think of Sam Raimi's Army of Darkness as an easy reference. Or, similarly Back to the Future. The Numen must have seemed so beyond anything supernatural the locals had ever witnessed. But at this stage, they were still a minority, easily squashed. Messmer would be Marikas weapon of mass destruction and tool of revenge.
The problem with your theory is that there are clearly images of these same stone coffins or ships rather on the top relief on the steles in the Uhl palace and Uld which are underground civilisation (for all we know Uhl and Uld could have been build by numens). “Elden Jon” (big beardead dude with the stone tablet in Uhl statues is also depicted on the stone coffins. Since numens were so advanced as a race I can hardly believe they would settle in such a small village and just dissolve in the hornsent society. More likely Marika was a part of numens who came from the underground.
Thank god, another stone coffin spaceship theorizer. Yeah, Miyazaki? Coffins? Coffins my ass, I know a space faring boat when I see one The bull is what really sells it to me. The Taurus. I mean why use a bull if they don't want us to make a connection to the stars? The engravings of snakes referencing the Ouroboros. And their placement in the Fissure and on the coast. How exactly did all these "coffins" get wedged underground, inside of a hole that looks like a meteor impact, if they just drifted onto shore? Hell, how does a STONE COFFIN float...anywhere?
The cocoon might be miquella. In the same way godwyn’s body became corrupted and the source of death the opposite of all things gold. Maybe miquella’s body after having its soul removed also had its curse inverted or released having his body no longer looking young and develops then mummifies bc the body was absorbing nutrients and blood (actually this doesn’t make sense bc how would miquella be able to also divest his flesh in the shadow lands to become beacons of gold idk all the dead there still have all their body parts so it might be his soul body?)
Also sleep is constantly seen as a better form of death or a peaceful respite for undying souls and the inversion of that might be how we’re able to even access the lands of shadow without truly being dead
It’s also interesting how Thiollier’s concoction imitates St.Trina’s nectar by killing the tarnished when consumed but it doesn’t kill the dragon priestess or Thiollier. Maybe the reason Thiollier never hears her voice is because he never truly embraces sleep. His devotion and dedication to not dying but still embracing sleep might be what is preventing him from being able to hear her
Wouldn't Ranni's ending mean eternal free will for everyone without the Greater Will's influence? While an eventual Age of Compassion would mean eternal enslavement to Miquella. Like, everyone's charmed so there's no war and everything's dandy, but they're all mindless drones then. I'm with Ansbach on this one, Miquella is a terrifying monster.
Just Deserts is correct. I don't know the etymology too well, but I'd guess Just Desserts is an "also spelled this way" thing that dictionaries added because it was an incorrect spelling that became more common than the correct one, like how they updated "literally" to mean "figuratively"
3 hours to connect some simple dots is wild themes are not one to one obviously miquella is a different character to Griffith they exist in 2 different stories that doesn’t mean they don’t have thematic similarities
The difference in their motivation and circumstance is what makes the connection interesting how one motivated by lust for power and one motivated by compassion can still end up committing the same sin of getting rid of who you are on the journey to become your best self
Godwyn with St Trina on his back would have been more epic, but i am satisfied. I thought perhaps Godwyn and st trina were the duo that Marika wanted for the next age, whereas Miquella and Radahn were the duo Radagon wanted.
Say that happens,what happens to Fia's quest? What happens to maliketh's story? It will absolutely break the base game story. Now THAT would be retcon fanfiction.
@@W.H.138it literally wouldn't, just make it so the quest can't be completed, you don't even have to interact with fia at all to beat the game, or need to do her quest to explore deeproot depths. Not sure how any maliketh stuff would be affected, farum azula already exists beyond time, it isn't too far-fetched that some special exception or whatever is in effect. The radahn choice reeks of marketing decisions and getting the most amount of player back playing as possible right now. Godwyn makes more sense thematically, literally the close relationship between miquella and radahn is not touched on in the base game barely, if at all. Radahn phase 1 shares a bunch of moves with the death knights. A cut alternate miquella intro boss scene the dialogue mentions "living things and life" like 4 times. The cadaver surrogate referenced in some death knight item descriptions... sus
@@fluffygab So if you have already completed fia's quest you can't access the dlc? Maliketh's whole role in the story is because he failed to guard the rune and got Godwyn killed. It's why he's being haunted by the hunger of deathroot. Seeing as you don't even seem to know the story all too much, what makes you think you get to decide what makes more sense? I'm not even trying to be snarky, the whole Godwyn coming back storyline makes about as much sense as godefroy's story.
@@W.H.138 "doesn't know the story at all" You are conflating what maliketh protected the rune of death for, it literally was for the gloam-eyed queen. Also you can still complete fia's quest, D's quest, and not pick the rune of death ending when you kill radagon. Explain that one bud. Godwyn coming back quite literally makes more sense from a writing standpoint than radahn, based on the information presented in the base game. So yeah that's why it makes "more sense" lmfao. There is no deciding of it, setups and payoffs isn't that difficult of a writing task to use. Idk why you are getting hung up on this whole fia thing, or this "base game interference" thing. There is nothing altered in the base game or dlc that should have hypothetically, so why would it matter in a hypothetical where some alternate ending sidequest doesn't fit 100%. Malenia or miquella don't comment on either of your conquerings of the other despite progress. Messmer is not directly referenced at all in the base game despite at least half his siblings apparently being alive during the same time.
I think marika disguised herself as a hornsent and became part of hornsent society, eventually becoming the consort of the hornsent god, where she then killed it and ascended herself
![3D Modelling the entire Elden Ring map 500% speed [part 01]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/fbIK2MDdE_Q/mqdefault.jpg)
I had to step away after my comment but I also wanted to drop this idea on you. Marika is the spirit tuner that Hewg is indebted to. Shamans are called shrine maidens in the japanese and given what shrine maidens do irl, it makes me believe that the shamans were the original spirit tuners. Then you look at Roderika who (imo) is probably a spitting image of young marika, who came from outside the lands between and has a gift for spirit tuning and things start to make sense. If you take someone like Roderika, who's young, beautiful, gifted in the spirit arts and then have them raised in a culture thats fully into the spirit arts and suddenly it makes sense why people thought they were divine in nature.
To add, I would look into the crafting items associated with Rauh Ruins and their “sprite” work. It ties into the Shamans being akin to Spirit Tuners
Really refreshing seeing someone not supposing that Miquella is a horrible cruel villain. Also think that Radahn accepted (was not forced) being Miquella consort (and becoming the Lord just like his idol Godfrey) at first, but after Miquella rejected the Golden Order, he didn’t want to uphold his part of the vow (so Malenia tried to force him)
I want to do an "In Defense" of Miquella of video, or something like that. I don't understand some of the comments Im reading or the videos I am seeing ascribing him as this be all end all bad guy.
It almost feels like he is getting this characterization because the final boss fight felt like it came out of left field and is really hard.
@@JackisaMimic yes please do it, definitely going to watch it!
Like you said it seems that people from the first day the dlc was released they collected agreed that Miquella is evil, no nuances, and I don’t see a lot of new perspectives and theories…
Maybe is bc most were expecting to side with Miquella until the end and felt betrayed by the final boss fight 😂
I think the biggest question mark right now is Radahn's true motivation and willingness to become Miquella's consort at the point in time we confront them. It's clear that at some point both parties are aware of the vow for Radahn to become consort, but when and/or why is left ambiguous.
The biggest reason I believe Radahn was opposed Miquella at the end is because of the thematic parallels to Miquella abandoning St. Trina. Radahn clearly dearly loves his horse Leonard, to the point where he learned gravity magic to forever ride him even as he's lost his sanity to rot; that par of his humanity was in left in tact. To ride just as one of his mentors and war brother Gaius, a legless albinauric.
Then we find the Putrescent Knight, a congealed mass that overtly takes the shape of a man and horse, in the same pit as St. Trina, both respective representations of Miquella and Radahn's love and humanity... there are too much thematic through lines for it to be a coincidence.
It just boils down to " is he an antagonist who has some parallels with griffith?"
The answer would more or less be yes.
He's not literally griffith after all😂
The even simpler form of that question is "Is he a bad guy or a good guy?"
I know the debate would last an eternity, and we wouldn't agree in the end, but seeing many of his means and him trying to justify them by the ends, i'd say he's grey at best. Evil at worst.
My head cannon goes like this. The Numen are from 'another world'. They arrived upon the world on which the Lands Between, Lands of Shadow (our world) exists via giant spaceships that appear to us as massive rune-covered coffins. The Numen were not like the Hornsent that occupied this region, and as a result their special powers appeared as magic, occult etc. As a result, they were called Shaman. They relocated to a village of their own, a place where they could prosper without fear of being attacked, farmed into jars etc because one of their traits as Shaman/Numen was an inherent ability to graft or be grafted. They were 'built different', more pliable, more compliant. Down the line, this could explain Godrick's ability to graft. And if all of Marika's descendents are also Numen, could explain their own great powers. The Hornsent staged a genocide against what was clearly a more powerful race. And wiped out all but one, in the shape of Marika. Anything of a high enough technology would surely be consided magic, think of Sam Raimi's Army of Darkness as an easy reference. Or, similarly Back to the Future. The Numen must have seemed so beyond anything supernatural the locals had ever witnessed. But at this stage, they were still a minority, easily squashed.
Messmer would be Marikas weapon of mass destruction and tool of revenge.
The problem with your theory is that there are clearly images of these same stone coffins or ships rather on the top relief on the steles in the Uhl palace and Uld which are underground civilisation (for all we know Uhl and Uld could have been build by numens). “Elden Jon” (big beardead dude with the stone tablet in Uhl statues is also depicted on the stone coffins. Since numens were so advanced as a race I can hardly believe they would settle in such a small village and just dissolve in the hornsent society. More likely Marika was a part of numens who came from the underground.
Thank god, another stone coffin spaceship theorizer. Yeah, Miyazaki? Coffins? Coffins my ass, I know a space faring boat when I see one
The bull is what really sells it to me. The Taurus. I mean why use a bull if they don't want us to make a connection to the stars? The engravings of snakes referencing the Ouroboros. And their placement in the Fissure and on the coast. How exactly did all these "coffins" get wedged underground, inside of a hole that looks like a meteor impact, if they just drifted onto shore? Hell, how does a STONE COFFIN float...anywhere?
Marika is Paul Atreides and Miquella is Leto Atreides II
The cocoon might be miquella. In the same way godwyn’s body became corrupted and the source of death the opposite of all things gold. Maybe miquella’s body after having its soul removed also had its curse inverted or released having his body no longer looking young and develops then mummifies bc the body was absorbing nutrients and blood (actually this doesn’t make sense bc how would miquella be able to also divest his flesh in the shadow lands to become beacons of gold idk all the dead there still have all their body parts so it might be his soul body?)
Also sleep is constantly seen as a better form of death or a peaceful respite for undying souls and the inversion of that might be how we’re able to even access the lands of shadow without truly being dead
It’s also interesting how Thiollier’s concoction imitates St.Trina’s nectar by killing the tarnished when consumed but it doesn’t kill the dragon priestess or Thiollier. Maybe the reason Thiollier never hears her voice is because he never truly embraces sleep. His devotion and dedication to not dying but still embracing sleep might be what is preventing him from being able to hear her
Wouldn't Ranni's ending mean eternal free will for everyone without the Greater Will's influence?
While an eventual Age of Compassion would mean eternal enslavement to Miquella.
Like, everyone's charmed so there's no war and everything's dandy, but they're all mindless drones then.
I'm with Ansbach on this one, Miquella is a terrifying monster.
Just Deserts is correct. I don't know the etymology too well, but I'd guess Just Desserts is an "also spelled this way" thing that dictionaries added because it was an incorrect spelling that became more common than the correct one, like how they updated "literally" to mean "figuratively"
D kinda reminds me of the cut mimic quest. 2 Bodies, 2 Minds, 1 soul.
if anyone is skull knight its probably melina
So ranni is griffith according to youe recent lore storytime?
Imagine if Miyazaki got the rights to make a Berserk game.....
I'd rather them make original stories inspired by the art style of Berserk.
3 hours to connect some simple dots is wild themes are not one to one obviously miquella is a different character to Griffith they exist in 2 different stories that doesn’t mean they don’t have thematic similarities
Divesting yourself of humanity and all that makes you you, to achieve power is what connects them
The difference in their motivation and circumstance is what makes the connection interesting how one motivated by lust for power and one motivated by compassion can still end up committing the same sin of getting rid of who you are on the journey to become your best self
Godwyn with St Trina on his back would have been more epic, but i am satisfied. I thought perhaps Godwyn and st trina were the duo that Marika wanted for the next age, whereas Miquella and Radahn were the duo Radagon wanted.
Say that happens,what happens to Fia's quest? What happens to maliketh's story? It will absolutely break the base game story. Now THAT would be retcon fanfiction.
Some one likes their own comment
@@W.H.138it literally wouldn't, just make it so the quest can't be completed, you don't even have to interact with fia at all to beat the game, or need to do her quest to explore deeproot depths.
Not sure how any maliketh stuff would be affected, farum azula already exists beyond time, it isn't too far-fetched that some special exception or whatever is in effect.
The radahn choice reeks of marketing decisions and getting the most amount of player back playing as possible right now.
Godwyn makes more sense thematically, literally the close relationship between miquella and radahn is not touched on in the base game barely, if at all. Radahn phase 1 shares a bunch of moves with the death knights. A cut alternate miquella intro boss scene the dialogue mentions "living things and life" like 4 times. The cadaver surrogate referenced in some death knight item descriptions... sus
@@fluffygab So if you have already completed fia's quest you can't access the dlc?
Maliketh's whole role in the story is because he failed to guard the rune and got Godwyn killed. It's why he's being haunted by the hunger of deathroot.
Seeing as you don't even seem to know the story all too much, what makes you think you get to decide what makes more sense?
I'm not even trying to be snarky, the whole Godwyn coming back storyline makes about as much sense as godefroy's story.
@@W.H.138 "doesn't know the story at all"
You are conflating what maliketh protected the rune of death for, it literally was for the gloam-eyed queen.
Also you can still complete fia's quest, D's quest, and not pick the rune of death ending when you kill radagon. Explain that one bud.
Godwyn coming back quite literally makes more sense from a writing standpoint than radahn, based on the information presented in the base game. So yeah that's why it makes "more sense" lmfao. There is no deciding of it, setups and payoffs isn't that difficult of a writing task to use.
Idk why you are getting hung up on this whole fia thing, or this "base game interference" thing. There is nothing altered in the base game or dlc that should have hypothetically, so why would it matter in a hypothetical where some alternate ending sidequest doesn't fit 100%.
Malenia or miquella don't comment on either of your conquerings of the other despite progress. Messmer is not directly referenced at all in the base game despite at least half his siblings apparently being alive during the same time.
I think marika disguised herself as a hornsent and became part of hornsent society, eventually becoming the consort of the hornsent god, where she then killed it and ascended herself