Why Do Some Engineers Advise Me To Not Buy Analogue Hardware?
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- Опубликовано: 30 окт 2023
- In this video I discuss some engineer advise against buying analogue hardware. There are a few reasons why this could be. Some to stop you from competing when and gaining a superior sound. But on the other hand advising based on experience based on cost and how much benefit you will get from analogue equipment.
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I want to add another perspective to the question of “to hardware/analog or not”. As long as you aren’t struggling to pay the rent, analog isn’t necessarily more expensive than plugins. When you buy a plugin, it is immediately worth nothing. You can’t resell it or if you can it’s difficult and you aren’t going to get much of a return. If you buy hardware, assuming it isn’t lost or destroyed you will always be able to get money back from it. If you get a good deal on it you might even profit. So with plugins you truly are buying them, with hardware you are actually just renting them, with the rental fee being the difference between what you paid and what you get when it’s eventually sold. Yes, it will eventually be sold, even if you love it, cuz everyone dies in the end. Happy Halloween.
If you’ve got a home studio and you are wondering if analogue is worth it, I’d say don’t be afraid to pick up a few choice pieces that fit your style/workflow.
Great point. This is why I always recommend people stepping into the world of analogue consider 500 series. It's affordable and you can buy, swap and sell quite easily as there is a good market for it. Often if you buy 2nd hand you can sell for the same price.
Your sound is unreal Paul. Amazing analogue mastering chain but also amazing ears and knowledge on your part 👌
💯Facts Paul
Good point mate !!Only truths here
I very much agree that you can get a great sound in the box as a producer. But analogue synths can definitely give you something you can’t recreate in the box. It’s different. The pure sound of a great analogue synth can be an amazing addition to your production in my experience
Yes this is true. From my own experience, I found analogue synths to be a huge pain when going back to a session months later. I hated having to commit to the sound. No doubt they sound overall better.
I have sold all my analog synths…if we talk about vsts…you can record them through analog mic pre and get the same results. Btw just recently I have tested my 2 friends with analog and digital samples and both of them said that digital is analog and analog is digital 😂
Can you ellaborate how to record a stereo out. Cuz most mic preamps are mono
Great answers Paul. One thing I can say about using hardware some now is that it is really easy to mess up your master using these things like a VSM-2 that have a lot of controls and a big learning curve. But absolutely no way plugins or even other hardware can replicate the VSM. The Cranesong Hedd that's part of the Magic Garden chain at Access Analog has a similar quality of saturation but nowhere close to the versatility. I think it sounds a lot better than the Black Box. The Hedd and VSM-2 can do the most radical enhancement out of all the hardware I've tried. Saturation devices make the biggest difference in my experience. Quite a bit more than compressors like the Shadow Hills or Manley Vari-Mu. One thing that surprised me was how well the SPL PQ plugin compared against Access Analog's Massive Passive. I did a lot of tests with their Massive Passive against various plugins. The UAD Massive and Magenta were decent enough, but the PQ plugin was the only one that has that similar full and wide sound. Do you think eqs are one of the easier things for plugins to match? If you get a chance, check the PQ plugin vs hardware with the input volume pushed on both. A mastering engineer I know told me that's when the hardware really shines. If the plugin compares just as well with the input up, it really calls into question how much someone needs a hardware eq unless they want something like a Buzz or Curve Bender. I may drive into Chicago and test a used PQ a shop is selling for between 4-5k. I notice a lot of more expensive hardware is just sitting on Reverb for months and months.
As it stands, I feel like the PQ plugin is on par with the Massive Passive hardware. Lately some of the best results I've been getting are with the Overloud 495 along with the PQ. It doesn't surprise me given that I cannot tell the plugin from the hardware in your PQ video. I've started using the Shadow Hills in mid-side and parallel through the VSM-2 and that gives me a lot of added flexibility but a decent learning curve to adjust to as well. It's made me switch the Shadow Hills back to the Nickel transformer whereas I had been using Steel for the extra bass.
Can you tell us what dither, if any, you are using before the hardware goes out to your converter? For anyone who is curious, download this free Stillwell plugin called Bitter and check where you're going above 24-bits. Usually it's at the end of the chain in a mix and before a first hardware insert. You then add something like Maat Linpro and it goes down to 24-bit.
Not many people own stuff like an Elysia Alpha, Fairchild 670 recreation, Shadow Hills, VSM-2, Buzz Req, Knif Soma, or any of the more expensive stuff. I imagine maybe 50-100 people on the planet own some of these. Possessing one or more of these devices can end up winning you business over someone else. You've got pretty much all the best stuff and have said multiple emails a day hit your inbox asking to have tracks run through these pieces, so there is definitely demand for high-end hardware out there.
Paul, how do you feel like the Bettermaker Mastering eq compares against the PQ and the Buzz? Synchrony bank messed up something when trying to do auto-pay on our VK card despite nothing being wrong on the bank's end. They closed the card after two botched auto-pays in the span of a week. Usually these banks only close cards if you're late on a payment for several months and give a bunch of warnings. So, now I can't use that card to get anything else. But the cost to entry isn't too bad if you can afford a few hundred bucks a month for things like a credit card, Affirm, and/or Klarna. You can get something that costs around 7-8k for $150 a month if you get 48 month financing. Cheaper hardware like IGS or Looptrotter is a great way to start. You could build a chain with that stuff or maybe some Bettermaker or Wesaudio for 8k or less. The Portico II has to be the best bang for the buck out there. That thing can give you a really great sound on its own. I've used it extensively as my Access Analog subscription allowed for unlimited use while I had it.
I tried a print ad recently and it didn't exactly workout very well. Guess that's why they sold me a $450 ad for about $200. Obviously, RUclips videos would be a big help in terms of advertising. If you haven't done a video on advertising, that would be a real worthwhile topic.
Hello! At what sample rate do you work? It's been a long test run for me, and still can't decide. But differences seem to me to diminish a lot when using high sample rate (definition doesn't change, but processing accuracy and aliasing diminution does) and crazy oversampling. Still have a neve MBP used on my master but might sell it if I find it does not change much. The MBP is unbelieavable at calming harsh digital files sent to be mixed.
In my opinion, I also thought about devices like the VSM-2 being a real advantage when it comes to analog processing compared to other devices. Certainly not EQs
@@raphaelherzig3316 I mix at 44 with mostly oversampling plugins and master at 96. I haven’t found that going to 96k all of a sudden made stuff like the VSM-3, PA Shadow Hills versions, and Fusion plugins comparable with the hardware.
@@viciousblissvideos during test I found that turning a protools 44.1Kh session into a 88.2Kh, for example, had a non-negligeable effect on depth and top-end clarity. But those results should be highly dependent on plugins used, as plugin codes has an importance on how aliasing and filtering is impacting quality at lower sample rates. For me, the result was like 50% of the exact same effect from going from VSM-3 plugin to VSM-2 hardware. I use about 70% of fabfilter plugins and 20% emulation plugins. It would be interesting to see if someone else would experience the same!
(tracks were upsampled)
@@raphaelherzig3316 it’s also about whether a function works properly or not in the plugin. I’m very aware of aliasing, cramping, DF-1 biquads in stuff like the Metric Halo Channel Strip, etc. Spent a lot of time interacting with Andy from Cytomic and Plugin Dan who also goes by tomegatherion on Gearspace. I’ve made a lot of posts on there about the VSM-2 as well.
The type of dither matters a lot. And which one works best depends on how the song was mixed at times. Lately I started using the PA Focusrite on my mixes and now it seems Gooddither is a better match when going into my hardware than Maat Linpro. Before when I did less eq, I felt the Maat was better at the mastering stage with my hardware.
Most of my track compression and FX are UAD. A lot of those run at 192k. U-he Satin is on most of my tracks and busses and runs at 384k. With the higher rates we have potential IMD problems. But I do that because the Aurora N doesn’t cut the highs like it does at 44k.
Are you saying you have access to a VSM-2? I’d say 50% capability for the VSM-3 sounds about right. With cleaner hardware, I think 70-95% is possible. Sometimes the plugin does something different where it excels in areas that the hardware does not. The Black Box plugin does not have the same sort of deadening effect on the transients that the hardware does, for instance. But it lacks big in areas where the hardware excels.
Facts! I won’t say what mastering engineers suggested I just use plug ins instead of their services and or for them to show me their setup in person but it has happened and then I found interviews where they told other people the exact opposite lol
I've seen this a lot. I've seen other artists I've worked with go as far as to recommend people use plugins when I know full well they come to me for analogue mastering. It's like they don't want other people to have as good sound as them. So they say the opposite to what they do.
Finally the truth is out
Great video 👌
But what is the differnce with the recall ability for mastering? Do you just master every session to 100% completion every time so you never need to recall anything? If not it would be the same thing imo
You can recall analogue settings using photos or using programs like session recall. All masters are completed to 100% and hopefully won't need recalling. But if they do it's easy to recall back exactly as it is. Just takes 5 to 10 minutes to setup.
@@AudioAnimalsStudio then that would be the same case with synthesizers or what am I missing? Except that you'd probably take a few sessions to finish a piece but first of all I like finishing stuff in one session or maybe two and second I print everything to wav when I'm pleased with the result and every track that is not finished by the end either gets changed anyway later on or gets swapped completely
@roninthegoat2810 most producers will work on multiple projects over periods of time and go back to them. Recalling a synth with modulation that isn't synced even a few milliseconds can change the sound a lot. I had a moog semi modular synth with 18 osc and a lot of CV patching. As fun as it was it's a nightmare to patch from session to session. Never sounded the same as it did. Being forced to commit to a sound is painful especially if the client request a change on that sound. If you are ever asked for an edited version from the TV or film company that better fits the scene, making these changes is challenging.
I’m just not ready to come out of the box to my family yet.
🤣joker
Haha
Also - once you break out of the box and start buying high end analog gear it’s addictive…
Yes I can 100% confirm this
Working ITB is amazing and revolutionary, but that being said, Analogue will always sound better. The big issue for a lot of producers is they work collaboratively, which may involve traveling, so it'll be counter productive to have analogue gear that you can't use. Technology is still improving, they haven't gotten plugins to sound 100% identical to the analogue gear, but they're close.
I think you still can have a unique sound ITB but people like to see the shop and that will be a huge decision to close the deal. I love hardware BTW, and don't think you can achieve the same results.
Hi thanks for always answering the questions I have.
But I have recommended many new engineers to stay in the box until you have enough job to defend the cost. Nothing to do with scared of competition for I believe in even I told you everything I know about sound, I will still sound like me, and you will still sound like you. If it makes any sense.
One thing to mention on this subject is consider this. How much easier is it to sell a service and win clients with a studio full of analogue equipment compared to the client looking at a studio with just a computer speakers and interface in the room. Whilst I agree with your point 100% stay in the box till it is beneficial to come out. On the other hand it is far harder to win clients and convince then you are the man for the job when you have all the same tools they have at their disposal. It 100% then comes down to your talent and ability to use those plugins they have well.
@@AudioAnimalsStudio 100% agree with you IF you have the budget to not buy crap. Today people dont come to the studio,, the just send it to you. I am like you, love analog stuff, and have a lot high end gear like the Alfa, SMC 2b , Gyraf and so on. But to a new engineer, I tend to say learn you skills, then expand out of the box. Even Sterling sound has gone in the box, sadly. And I can hear it.. flater, not so bold like before, Analog definitivly does a different in mastering.
Just wanna thank you for this channel, nice to see people like myselv :)
@henningbortne8650 we're a dying breed unfortunately but whilst we are still about analogue mastering lives on superior.
To go otb u need a lot. Good and clean electricity, mastering grade converters, cables. Room, hi end speakers. Then good hi end gears. 3k usd + each or more. Less than that. U better stay itb. Or u need to spend at least 60k usd. Facts!
Yes pretty much and that's doing it on the cheap. That's why I think some people who do say don't come out the box look at it like if you are mastering for yourself doing 2 tracks a month. That'll cost you £100 a month in mastering services. You'd need to master 500 songs to recoup that cost.
@@AudioAnimalsStudio for sure , the good gears are like 8k usd +, Lavry gold more 17k usd. Only for converters, and so on. Is probably more than 150k usd to start. And for sure. U will need years and years mastering to get the money back. If u got a lot of clients. Investment wise don’t make sense, I spent that because I love that. For 20 years. And I’m not even still. To the investment I did 🔈💎
@icysasakimusic I bet you don't regret it though? I know I don't. I love being surrounded by gear.
@@AudioAnimalsStudio I don’t regretted at all, I need money to buy more ahahahaha. Ps: I live in Brasil. Things here cost 10x more. Because of currency and taxes. Is super unfair.
@@icysasakimusic I hear this a lot from engineers in South America
First time I have to disagree with you mate. As a producer with analog equipment there is a point in the production process you need to be satisfied with the settings and hit record or render. It's the same with airplanes that are flying overseas. There is a point of non return. And that's it. I don't think that any great production was based on overthinking. A production must flow otherwise it won't get finished. - The other thing you are saying, that some engineers with analog equipment will tell you to stay in the box is 100% right. They don't want you to have that 3D sound.
I feel like everyone needs at least one great hardware unit on the master bus. Even a music producer
Turn those 1's and 0's into an analogue signal at some point has huge benefits.
If you could buy only one hardware with a budget of max 2000 euro. What would u buy? To make your master sound more analog?
Your intentions in this space are apparent. I don’t think anyone can watch one of your videos and say that you’re trying to take advantage of your audience in some way. I mean, hell, you don’t even plug your own business in your videos. It’s a great soft sell imo. This approach is commendable and I wish more content creators were like you. It’s so annoying to get a 2 minute spot in the middle of a video plugging Raid: Shadow Legends.
The brand and studio I'm sitting in sells itself. I too, hate the sell mid video, sign up to my course etc. I feel that just turns people off a video. I'm not keen on these this video is sponsored by this company and I love this product ads you see in videos too. That's the good thing about having 100% control over your channel. I make the rules.
I would add an explanation: many of these engineers are paid to tell unsuspecting consumers that they are going to sound the same as hardware with a plugin. Personally, I got bored of wasting time with false promises, I chose a couple of plugins that I considered really good level (whether or not they emulate some HW) and I bought a good level Channel Strip and I'm happy, I went back to making music and I improved my sound system enormously. I love the concept that Paul says (it's my interpretation), if you are a fan or producer, it is much more practical and productive to work with good plugins and if I need that to sound pro, well, I take it to Paul, renting HW keyboards, etc etc.
This is a good point. I know one engineer who is a very good mastering engineer. He released a plugin and told everyone he no longer uses his hardware and only uses his plugin to master now. A lot of people fell for it. And yes, you guessed it he still uses his hardware on every master. Just don't tell anyone.
😂 I know who you talking about. I remember my fellow musicians and engineers falling for that than I asked them did he mention to you guys that he tracked everything on a Neve console and the best preAmp there is. They even said he was mixing and mastering everything from his laptop with only headphones. Oh my my!
@OfficialAlexZitto yes you do know who I'm talking about. It went deeper than that. Great marketing built on a huge lie and a fancy GUI.
Excellent, you reminded me of a "reflection" (or ground wire) that I once asked myself,... There are plugin interfaces (GUI) that are beautiful (sorry my translates are a mix between my English and google translate!); some, perhaps even more beautiful than a HW, but if I want to hear "pleasant" sounds (and that's what we're talking about here), no image will ever give it to me, it's impossible, the image does not generate sound,... Conversely, fortunately, if I want to look at pretty images I can look at and/or download free images of HW, cars, whatever,... They are two different senses: sight or hearing! They don't always go together...
someone finally talk about fact
i thought so, because they are jelly and scared.
Unfortunately some engineers are like this. I know this myself because I've had them look puzzled at me and ask why do you help other engineers. What do you get out of it.
You would probably be a £1,000,000 richer if you didn't buy all your outboard gear. There's that for a reason. 🤣
Serious question. If your Atmos masters are good enough and they're digital, maybe your stereo masters may also be good enough. It is still the same ears and skills?
Just a thought 🤔
Because they don’t want to loose jobs! 😂
Analog sounds better and people that dont invest or want to invest in analog claim different
Pretty much.