Volterra First Look | Windows Dev Kit 2023 Tests
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- Опубликовано: 16 окт 2024
- I started testing the Windows Dev Kit 2023 (Volterra), an ARM mini PC from Microsoft, and here are some thoughts after a week with it.
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🔴 Windows Dev Kit 2023 LIVE initial setup and tests - • Microsoft ARM - Volter...
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For those asking, yes you can run Visual Studio in a virtual machine on a Mac - here's my recent review of it: ruclips.net/video/B9C_cv8R_7U/видео.html
You should be comparing the Volterra Dev Kit to the Apple M1 Dev Kit. Apple's Dev Kit was far from mainstream when it launched, as well. No Thunderbolt, for example. The missing software is WHY this kit exists - so that we can get those missing bits ported natively to their ARM platform.
The M1 Dev kit was just a A14 chip running MacOS. So theoretically, that like comparing an overclocked iPhone 11 to this machine.
@@MastermindAtWork both of these are basically just using bumped up smartphone chips so the real m1 rival should hopefully come next year
You raise a very valid point. This comparison is misleading
Volterra is late 2022. M1 dev kit is late 2020. I'm not sure the M1 is being treated fairly in this comparison. Also, ARM Windows has been around since 2012 IIRC, with Android being around far longer, so Qualcomm has no excuse either
It's not really a competition, just useful info and something to contrast it to I think
It's a cool piece of hardware I think. I just ordered one. I am a dev, but that's not really why I'm getting it. I just like the idea of having a fairly powerful piece of ARM hardware with full Windows support to just play around with and test out, and yes probably do some development on the side as well! Sounds like fun.
Looking forward for it to be better. ARM is indeed the future and looking forward for a better competition in the ARM space.
RISC is the future and ARM is leader in RISC right now.
Every x86 CISC machine runs inside as RISC - that HW emulation cause inefficiency of today's PCs.
Voltera and Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3 using Cortex X1 core is pretty good upgrade.
X1 has 50% higher IPC than A76 in previous 8cx Gen1&2 ... higher IPC than AMD Zen 3.
X3 revealed this year has another 20% IPC uplift from X1 .... much higher IPC than AMD Zen 4.
The biggest improvement is that 8cx Gen 1 has only 4 big cores while Gen 3 has 4x X1 and 4x A78 (4x bigger + 4xbig ). A78 is about 25% IPC uplift from A76. Higher clocks, massive IPC uplift and twice as much big cores makes it about 2-3 faster.
Exciting is new Cortex X3:
- support for 8x Cortex X3 + 4x Cortex A715 (total 12 big cores!!!)
- 64-bit only, every transistor for max 64-bit performance
- L4 cache shared with GPU (no x86 can do that, only Apple has shared cache also for NPU, GPU)
- instruction set ARMv9 with SVE2 vectors (including matrix instructions)
same
@@arm-power Also have a look at RISC-V. Intel also joined the RISC-V ecosystem, and have plans to release their own RISC-V chips.
@@LivingLinux Yes. But Intel uses licensed SiFive RISC-V core so it's not real attempt. For Intel is very easy to develop RISC-V core based on x86 core. Same way as Jim Keller developed sister cores Zen1 & K12. There is 80% core identical for both ISAs.
Closed proprietary ISA is the worst thing ever can happen to IT. That's why Linux rulez over closed proprietary Windows, slowly but steadily. MS is forced to use more and more Linux and one day there will be MS Linux. Just it would be better for everybody if they swap ASAP.
Same for x86. Jim Keller tried to kill x86 with K12 because he came into AMD from Apple.
Interested to see your comparison to Windows on Arm running on a M1 Mac Mini (Parallels as well as others using Macs VM). You’re the best.
ty
Apple created a similar Apple Development Platform before they brought out the M1 Mac Mini. It looked like a Mac Mini but had if I remember rightly an A14 chip in place of the faster M1 chip. An annoying thing about the Apple Development Platform was that although it cost something like $500, and so was cheap, developers were obliged to give it back to Apple when the M1 Mac Mini became available.
What why
@@init_yeah There was no chance in people buying real M1 Mac Minis and MacBooks unless they could run native ARM software. That software was not going to write itself and so was developed on these prototype Mac Minis with a slower older Arm chip which were released a year ahead of the production M1 Mac Mini. This is the purpose of these little Microsoft computers.
@@paulharrison8379 so, they got back their money, or was it like, "yep, we have your money now, now give us back the pc as well"
I was a developer who got the ADP and tested and developed software on it from almost day one.
1. It sucked especially the first few system versions
2. Apple gave us $500 back once returned
3. Mac mini for the same price was more than twice as powerful
interesting! How would you compare VS2022 on Volterra vs VS2022 on Apple-M-Machines?
“Boot time is pretty long, 20 seconds” - in 1990s this would be a great line for a standup comedy 😁
Man the time I wasted in the 90s waiting for stuff like that. Horrible lol
With Powertoys you get PowerToys run that is golden for windows - that is a nice alternative for Alfred in MacOS. WSL is golden in windows - Starship Prompt with Nvim configured as IDE alongside VsCode for windows.
Alex: not for consumers
Consumers: using web apps most of the time (RUclips, Netflix,...)
Jokes aside, loved the video Alex! Packed with info in a short video.
and some heavy users will need microsoft office as well :)
It’s a great first go. Software improvements will take it pretty far before the release of nextgen qualcomm chips. A similar situation with the initial Apple arm dev kits
Pretty review!. Now I've got my volterra (spain) I installed IntelliJ (beta preview win/arm64) and OpenJDK (win/arm64) and works nice.
Use Microsoft Edge if there is no Chrome ARM64 support yet
@Alex, Another great video, Thank you!!
I was thinking in the last few moments of the video, is that someone doing .NET dev is very likely doing it for x86, and if they have this box, ARM as well, especially for things like debugging their apps. As they would likely be developing for both at the same time, I was wondering if you could show some debug scenarios between x86 apps and ARM apps, what performance hits you may take, or limitations, and for the killer feature portion of the video, show remote deployment and debugging bi-directionally between your x86 laptop, and your Voltera. I am not sure this would be possible in Parallels running Win11, but if you could try, this might be one area where a Voltera would be a better solution for ARM dev, than running in a VM. It's just a thought.... Max.
thanks for the suggestions
Unrelated question - is that an Aeron chair? Or something similar? I need a new chair and was thinking of getting one. If Aeron did you get a good deal on it and where?
It is an Aeron chair, and I bought it many years ago on Amazon. It served me well, but there might be better options out there now. This chair is much louder than I care for when I shift my weight.
If Google absolutely refuses to port Chrome to Windows on ARM, and x64 emulation continues to be slow, that could really hold back adoption of Windows on ARM. Both consumers and web developers would want to use Chrome. Since Chromium has been ready for a long time, it seems like a deliberate choice on Google's part.
Chrome on M1 Macs is already native for a long time now. It *is* a deliberate choice on Google part. Something something ARM Chromebook they say.
They will port it to ARM windows if more devices come out. They probably haven't already because there are so few windows on arm devices. Trust me, google wants your data on ARM windows just as much as they do on x86.
@@Watchandlearn91 It's ready they just choose not to release it. Personally not sure why you would continue to use Chrome when Edge and other Chromium browsers are available but I guess some people are locked in to the sync via Google Account or something, or just like their home comforts.
MS going to Chromium was a double-edged sword really; we got a chromium browser that IMO is better than Chrome itself, but it kind of leaves Firefox out there on it's own a bit.
@@DanielHarrisCodes Personally I use Firefox. I have some annoyances with it (mainly pocket keeps showing up even after my attempt to permanently disable it) but I won't use Chrome and I don't like Edge either. I also think it's healthier for the internet in general if Firefox keeps living.
What do you expect from the same company who wanted to destroy windows phone in every way possible?
Will windows for arm change
anything for linux users/people who need wine to run specific apps?
Hey Alex (or anyone else), were you able to download Snapdragon's Neural Processing SDK? It is listed under the arm native dev tools for Volterra. For some reason the SDK download is restricted and you have to request access for it. Unfortunately, it's been a week with no response from Qualcomm.
Yeah, I also applied. Nothing yet. Pretty weird
A good video and a good summary of who this is for. I moved to an M1 Mac from Windows, not because of Windows, but because of the excessive power consumption and heat of the PC I had. Sure I could have used a NUC, but it wouldn't be anywhere near the performance of M1. I'm looking forward to when Windows on ARM is a reality for users and SoC Windows machines are on a par with what Apple is doing
Did you consider something like 6800u laptops?
@@bulletpunch9317 I didn't. I also got fed up with some of the build quality of Windows PC's. Had literally every part of an XPS 13 replaced under warranty, and some of those parts more than twice. Had a ThinkPad P51 that was very reliable, but weighed more than my house. Also tried an XPS 15 and wasn't that impressed with the trackpad. But I've had a Surface Pro 4 for years and it's been great, it's just a tad slow now. I will get another Windows laptop at some point in my life, but it won't be running x86 it will be on ARM
@@shaunpugh3287 why not x86 if its a good and efficient chip?
Hi Alex,
Thanks for your awesome videos I am planning to buy a macbook pro , kindly advise should we wait till March for the latest version or can we purchase the current m1 macbook pro 14 inch model
i like my mbp. if you need a machine right now to do your work, then you should get what’s available imo. i have no idea when new machines will be out, only tim cook knows that
@@AZisk Thanks for the quick reply 😊.
Did you make a video about setting up Parallel Desktop? It didn‘t run at all on my Mac Studio. Couldn‘t get it running, got very bad service (was forced to install Twitter and got reply’s after three day). Finally couldn‘t test, but was offered, buying it quickly, because evaluation time ended😆😆😆
didn’t make that video. never had an issue with it myself so didn’t know it was needed
I think this is a great step by Microsoft, but I don't think it's fair to compare this machine with Mac Mini, maybe the Mac Mini that was released as Dev Kit the one that had the iPhone processor.
yes, the mac mini was a a12z chip, but 1. i can’t find them for sale, 2. a12z benchmark scores are not that far off from m1. 3. both m1 mini and volterra are choices common people have right now, not just devs, so comparing them is fair
I agree that this is fair. We should compare what the companies make AVAILABLE to us. Also the mac mini dev kid was 3 years ago. The Mini M1 was from 2 years ago. The Volterra is new. So it's on Microsoft/Qualcomm for being unable to catch up
@@lehoang15tuoi Dev Kits are for helping developers work on their software's compatibility with upcoming hardware, I don't think performance is a priority in a Dev Kit.
I'm not saying this as a Microsoft supporter, my last Window was Windows 8, and since then I was using Linux and Mac only.
If Microsoft succeeds in Arm it means Apple will have to keep up and the competition is a good thing for everyone.
Hey Alex, did you try to do the Geekbench OpenCL benchmarks?
i ran the geekbench suite, isn’t that included?
@@AZisk Just checked the video again. Seems like there's no Geekbench Compute Benchmarks such as OpenCL or Vulkan. Only Geekbench CPU Benchmarks on Windows & Linux.
People forget that apple arm dev kit had a low powered mobile chip in it, I am pretty sure the final Qualcomm chip for windows on arm will be better.
It's unlikely. They've released 3 generations of chips for Microsoft now. If they can do it, they would have done it !ong ago
Does this support C++ development? I'm using Visual Studio Code right now and wondering if switching to this would work with regular Visual Studio (so I can use c++)?
I've started C++ development on mine using (a) Visual Studio 2022 preview for Windows development and (b) CLion for Linux using WSL2. I don't think that CLion can target ARM64 on the Windows side (or I've not found out how to do it). I've got an application to port that's all C++.
Recompare after 24H2 please
Windows is getting better compared to mac and wsl bridges the gap for developers smoothly
Any idea if Linux works on the device now?
its already a good video 😅❤️
wow thanks
Thanks
Could you use this as a small desktop machine for work? Given the price and form factor it seems like it could be a good alternative to something like a NUC which id only really buy for office and browsing.
I'm sure it would be about as good as a Mac Mini for general office tasks. Not as fast and snappy, mind you. But with the Windows interface in the trade-off. While "native windows support" is a theoretical advantage, it honestly doesn't matter these days. There's very little software for Windows that doesn't have a Mac equivalent. And if you're using something esoteric for x86, just be aware that you're at the mercy of the x86 to ARM transpiler. Which isn't nearly as good as Rosetta is for the Mac.
The trade offs are too bad for anything other than a niche enthusiast market. More efficient but less powerful than a NUC.
Most people don’t care about a cellular modem in the SoC, so having that doesn’t translate to desirability.
Unless the price point is too good, this is not a mass market device.
I bought Misinform UM580 barebone mini PC for $450 USD. Added RAM and SSD for $100. It has AMD 5800H + 16 GB RAM + 512 GB SSD. I connected it to my 4K TV and runs great @ 4K60 with HDR. better buy a mini-pc instead of this because this is not there yet. Also, It is for DEV only at the moment.
Arm chips are definitely catching up but they're nowhere near apple m series chips
I was getting bored waiting for Apple's Mac Mini with a M2 Pro processor to be released, so I have just bought a Microsoft Dev Kit 2023 to play with and it was delivered today! I was surprised there is no Windows ARM version of Chrome, especially when they have ARM Chromebooks running Chrome OS today that includes a native Chrome browser. I know Google are going through a process to separate out Chrome from Chrome OS so they can follow different release cycles. Maybe we will get ARM version of Chrome once they have completed this process.
It's just speculation but many believe it could be intentionally held back (Chrome ARM) to damage Microsoft's efforts. Personally I switched away from Chrome as my main browser as soon as Edge Chromium got good. I also don't use Chrome on my Mac and use a mix of Safari and Edge on there, just no reason for me to need Chrome anymore unless I need to do some testing.
@@DanielHarrisCodes well it’s the same company who refused to make a RUclips app for windows phone
@@devsda1 Microsoft even released one that was basically as good as the official one at the time but Google pulled the plug like a day after iirc
Have you ever thought about getting the Lenovo Thinkpad X13 snapdragon?
never thought about it. have you heard good things?
@@AZisk If you like Windows for ARM then it's pretty good. Performance from what I hear is similar to 12th gen i5. Also, battery life is good as well.
Can you install Windows arm in M1 or M2? In VBox or other virtual machine
In a VM, you can.
yes, you can. i’ve added a pinned comment with a link to my video on it
Alex, I tried your "NativeScript Core Getting Started Guide (Free Course)" and I have to say it is out of date! I could not get HelloWord or the Groceries apps to work. The code is outdated and needs to be either updated or just take down the course. I have never experienced as many errors as I got with the HelloWorld app! Tremendous incentive for a new person to never use Nativescript! I gave up on the course and will move on to something else.
oh yeah. a lot has changed:)
i hope to make some updates, but it might be a while. if you’re curious about nativescript, and getting going with it, the docs are pretty good right now and are up to date
can’t you just compile chrome on on ARM?
Can we install oracle virtual box
docker not running on this machine, any advices?
docker runs fine
The real question is what can do,and do better than a typical x64 windows box?
Nothing.......Yet
Save power
Im hoping ARM64 becomes more available and devs start porting games to this architecture. I want to play games on Apple Silicon.
microsoft is finally doing some good stuff.
great video !! One nit-pick only ... in the beginning you say you can't "charge" the thing with USB-C power delivery. I mean, you can only charge something with the battery. These things you "power", not "charge" :P :D
* with a (battery)
Will WSA run natively on this?
Without proper OpenGL, OpenGL ES 3.2 and Vulkan support, don't expect a nice Android experience. I tried with a Snapdragon 7C Gen2, but it was disappointing.
Can you run any x86 programs on it or only ARM based?
There is a translation layer, but there are sure to be some programs that won't work at all whilst some will run more slowly ... as Alex demonstrated with Chrome x64.
Can it run Crysis?
Please a video on how to setup a a database... It seems SQL server developper does not install
As far as I can see from any docs I've found, SQL Server requires x64.
@@robgreen13 as developpers which database can we use natively in Windows ARM
@@Divocs I have not found one yet ... hopefully the developers will think it is worthwhile getting one of these machines and doing the work to port it. I will initially just be testing my ODBC client software on this ... and that means going and tracking down ODBC drivers which may be a problem too, but I have not got that far yet. I'm still setting up my developer tools and trying to decide between using CLion or VS 2022.
Between Apple and Microsoft, you could say it's an ARMs race 😌
whomp whomp whomp whomp 😂
Thanks!
Yes, def worth MS pushing this out in the hope that developers try a bit harder, as ATM, native WOA support sucks. When even Chrome does not run natively, then you know it is unloved. The SQ3 does not really push the game on, so we await desktop class ARM chips rather than Qualcomms mediocre efforts. All in the air, with ARM versus Qualcomm court fight likely to make developers even more reticent at wasting time developing WOA apps.
Chrome does have a build to run natively on arm
@@meorung05 Not the Chrome browser per se, but, yes, Chromium runs native on ARM.
Firefox does have an excellent build for ARM, and Edge (based on Chromium/Chrome) also has it. I blame Google for not providing a proper build yet
@@GauthamKrishna9991 Yes, Google is weird as they were fast in supporting Apple Silicon, although not an efficient build (versus Safari).
@@andyH_England Either Google is intentionally not making this work, or there is some stuff Microsoft is doing in Chromium that they haven't upstreamed. Either way, Mozilla with a smaller team had a much better build on both Apple Silicon and Windows on ARM, faster than someone like Google, and it isn't looking too good for either Google or MS.
It has free office? right?
Can you install OSX on it?
People have tried and failed, so far, to install Linux. Installing macOS on non-Apple x64 hardware took a lot of effort from a lot of smart people. I suspect that even if it were theoretically possible it would take loads of effort to (a) find out and (b) make it robust.
🎉
The Nuvia chips can't arrive soon enough.
100€ more for the Mac mini plus extra 100€ per year for the parallels subscription otherwise with the next release of parallels it just doesn’t work anymore
I wonder when SQL Server will run on it. I heard it cannot run on it yet.
Sorry, meant to say, wonderful video. Keep up the great job!
not for a loooong time. but there are workarounds
Is it possible to run SQL Server on Volterra?
unfortunately no. SQL server won’t be able to run on ARM hardware for a long while
@@AZisk Do you know why SQL is not going to be ported for long? What are the alternatives if I need to run SQL? The top idea for me is to run it in Azure.
@@gyurisc I've got a vid coming on this next week
General reception of Apple vs. Microsoft ARM dev kits
Microsoft Dev Kit:
"They did a good job. Only a few services are emulated from x86_64"
Apple A12Z dev kit:
"This sucks, it's not all 100% native. There's a single process they didn't port yet in this pre-release state"
Apple did this different to Microsoft. Apple got the Dev Kit out there before the hardware was sold to consumers so that devs could make their applications work when M1 was launched. It just needed to be "good enough" and it probably was for most devs. Microsoft had hardware out there with consumers for a long time but the hardware didn't support native development as the tools were not available (that's only now becoming possible with native VS 2022). That made it easier for MS to have such a great Dev Kit ... but I'd have preferred to have a less polished device a few years back. However, now I've got this polished little machine I'm very happy with it!
Since this is a devkit why don't you compare it to Apple's devkit, you know, the Mac Mini with the A12Z .....
don’t know where to get one
@@AZisk There are probably a few out there that people "forgot" to send back to Apple ... not me, sorry.
Qualcomm chip is too slow
Yes. It's based on current gen snapdragon but next gen snapdragon processors are 40-50% faster based on leaked s23 benchmarks
@@shubhamspatil its not even based on current gen, its 888 based.
As usual, Microsoft putting in garbage outdated hardware in cool looking machines... (looking at surface studio lineup)
Noo it's just the windows problem
Yep. The main positive of this thing for me is that more tools are coming out that I can use on my M1 Mac in Parallels. Jetbrains finally has arm64 builds of its IDEs
How to get Blue Eyes ? genetic engg ?
genetic something for sure
Hackintosh has entered a new level
Windows on arm 2024
The charging brick is so huge, this just stupid!
Well, I was excited about this machine, but I have to say - Apple is doing such good job here so this can not be even taken as a direct competition... Huh, so glad I got Mac Book Pro With M1 Pro chip...
Apple are ahead. But Microsoft is now investing significantly in the ecosystem with both hardware and software and given the power efficiencies of ARM vs x64 that makes a lot of sense. However, the big.LITTLE approach of the latest two generations of Intel CPUs show that there's a lot of life in the Wintel ecosystem and that may slow the adoption of Windows on ARM64.
If you really want something running Windows 11 ARM64, you're probably better off buying a Surface Pro X on eBay and upgrading it to Windows 11.
😁
can you run android apps on it?
I'd buy one if it was able to boot Linux
yeah, let’s see if anyone can crack that one. might be a while though
You already have the apple one 😂
Ditto. Would make for a sweet little arm workstation.
There's arm builds for almost all common software out there on linux. I've only really had to build specialty things (like SDR software), and even then, it works just fine.
@i2Sage I think linux itself utilizes ram very well alr, for a compilation machine, faster chip better productivity
@i2Sage they call this dev kit 😂
I was almost certain, that Docker Desktop for Windows is gui for Docker in WSL. It is funny, that Docker Desktop could not start.
it comes with it's own VM. Doesn't use WSL.
this guy have a lot money
I don't get it. My Intel 1240P laptop is much faster and the same power with the balance profile at 15/30W.
The 15/30W for your laptop is just the CPU. The 30W in this Volterra is the entire computer. Big difference!
@@torpedospurs at 15W package power (no package power 30W boost) where the total system power draw is 30W (including a display), I can score CB R23 score of 6700. Apple M1 scores 7700. Not a huge difference.
I will have to get GB5 and compare.
@@ValdeSanus if your total system power draw when running CB 23 is just 30w and your laptop has a typical 60wh battery, that would mean you can get 20hrs battery life at full load. Surely you're mistaken!
@@torpedospurs 30W x 20 hours = 600Wh
30W/60Wh = 2 hrs
@@ValdeSanus my bad I need to go back to school!
Ig this is microsoft answer to the Mac mini dev kit with a12z
I refuse to buy apple products so I'll wait for windows arm to mature.
Why is his voice distorted to hell?
to torture you. just you
Now see if you can nuke Win11 and install a native version of Linux - desktop or server.
Awww, this is disappointing.
so the conclusion is: it's raw, don't buy it. but if you wanna be a beta tester for your own money amazon works 24/7
Well I think it exists for a specific use-case right now, it's for companies and developers who really do need to port their drivers or software to support Windows on ARM. it really offers no other benefits to people just doing general development, such as a web developer building fairly standard LOB web apps. As Alex said it's not being pushed as a Surface product for example, so it's not intended to compete with a Mac Mini or be a consumer device.
you should take that horrible mac off your desk.........
Guess what? They already released a tablet with ARM for consumers which is not ready for consumers just like this machine.
My m2 MacBook air runs arm windows faster than the windows dev kit on bare metal I reckon pmsl
In other words just get a Mac mini.
Good to know ARM is still so bad, it gives Apple the time it needs to sneak up and snatch Microsoft's gaming revenue.
Arm64 is only bad in the windows world.
Bruh
@æ Unless there's x86 assembly in the game you want to build, it really doesn't matter ...