I miss the days when I knew next to nothing about medieval arms and armor and Battle of the Nations seemed like the coolest thing ever. It's astonishing how quickly your view of something can shift from "Epic battle of skill and honor, upholding the traditions of the olden days" to "Bunch of idiots uselessly flailing at eachother like angry LARPers".
Yeah, I wanted to get into IMCF stuff, but eventually realized that I might as well just go larping instead. At least with foam swords you can thrust to the actual weak points in the armor instead of trying to do the exact opposite.
6 years later... I don't know what, "Battle of the Nations" is. Did you ever find something that cranked your tractor after you were disillusioned? In 2022, it feels like(to me) that real video from full contact sports and the incredible amount of video from war support the popular viewpoint expressed in this guy's videos. Do you agree or disagree? Did you continue this course of interest? Are you even alive?
As an SCA reenactor I think you nailed it. Padding matters so you don't break a bone or get a concussion. Our helms especially are intentionally heavier, better padded and more covering than in period because we like our brains, even though we end up looking like bobble heads sometimes.
+capitalistraven Exactly. When I was doing SCA twenty-five years ago, my unit wore the cheapest homemade armors. I was without a jack, wearing a leather-covered, formed ABS plastic cuirass over a plaid tunic. My legs were ABS plastic of the "shovel" design, and my arms were leather with metal elbows -- hockey gloves for gauntlets. Looking back, I should have been concerned that this was no protection. However, my helmet was huge and heavy, filled with a handcrafted foam padding/duct tape insert. My face was protected by a tight grill that would have been at home on a hibachi. I could neither see nor hear in this head-bunker, but that was fine because I could barely feel head hits even from heavier weapons. This was appropriate because my job was to hold a massive door-shaped shield, while others behind me did the fighting. Good times...
+Dan Hindes lol well most fighters now who are serious get out of plastic ASAP and into better looking stuff. Thanks to zoombang padding we can get away with wearing chainmail that looks form fitting and we have artisans that will make custom riveted mail shirts and tunics. Also some of the better helms look pretty close to the real thing more through clever design than being authentic. Check out some video of recent crown tournaments to see what our gear looks like now.
So here's one of those nuances Matt said he might be wrong about: The really heavy padding in BotN tends to be reserved for the group battles, while the 1-on-1 fighters favour much lighter gambesons that are probably much closer to the historical examples. There has even been a trend recently in BOTN to wear much lighter armour made from spring steel. The reasoning is that in 1-on-1, you can fairly easily see your enemy's blows coming in (since the swords are so stupidly heavy) and take it on a part of your armour thick enough to stop it. I've tried that kind of fighting a few times and found that I can take a full-force shield punch on my coat of plates without any problems. The biggest "skillset" in BotN is managing your cardio, because you will often fight for 9 minutes at a time. Worse, the way they fight seems calculated to be as energy inefficient as possible. On the other hand, if you're doing a group battle, you never know when a great big Russian will blindside you with a hit on the spine from a 10 pound halberd, so yes you need a stupid amount of padding.
THANK YOU! I have been saying this to soo many people trying to compare traditional armor and modern armor and they just don't seem to understand. I'll start forwarding them to your video.
I watched a battle of nations video once and immediately thought that while it looked kinda cool, they were just bludgeoning each other senselessly with swords, and I want impressed
+skykid And aging with this BS, if you try just bash somebody you will lose, they using technics some even from HEMA ;). And you know they fight like that because it is sport which is base on reenactment/HEMA but is just sport, and rules are not meant to be realistic, is just like I don't know sport boxing. And people often complain about them fighting in armor as the would fight without armor, but you can't safe use treaty fencing. And one more, in fact battle of nations is more similar to group melee buhurt in medieval times.
Taking a strip out of your suit wouldn't do it. You need to have "contractions" put in, in several places. Most notably you likely need them under the shoulder blades, to draw it in across your back. You may also need to have some put in around the waist. These consist of areas where the usual 4-in-1 weave actually links to three rings, on the bottom end, to reduce the number of rows of links.
You have no idea how helpfull is this video to me! I just ordered mail armor for self defence, tailored to my measures, but with no padding. Thanks to your video I realized that my winter vest (which is not that hot) will do the job of giving me some sort of padding. It saved me more money. Thank you scholagladiatoria! You helped me a lot.
Thank you! Fighting while wearing a gambeson in an Australian summer is hell. I'm a massive fan of the Maciejowski Bible and the sleekness of the maille wearing knights is obvious. You can see the foot soldiers definitely more bulky with their much cheaper padded armour.
This is really valid. Reenacting Waterloo moving through the wheat and hills in thick wool, even in the evening, I was totally soaked with sweat. Like I had taken a shower in my uniform soaked. If it were during the middle of the day in the sun, it would have been difficult to maintain the exertion especially in the melees the whole time unless you were dogging it. We had a lot of people drop out from the movement alone. I consider myself on the better side of average fitness and can stay on bike ride in about any fast group for 40-50 miles so I thought it would be well within my fitness level. You can't pick your line when your are in formation so you expend more energy having to go over stuff instead of around it and keep a steady pace. Walking a straight line through thick wheat over plow ridges, holes and ground abnormalities while carrying heavy stuff puts a lot of load on your legs and calves.The beginning of the second day of the reenactment I was really feeling it. Add armor on top of that and the required activity level of exertion would be marathon like, add a hot day and you would be going down.
Don't underestimate the heat you will generate marching. It depends on how fast you are stepping, but when I went through US army infantry basic training at Ft. Benning, GA, it started in February, so it was still winter. We went on our first tactical foot march, and all we wore was our BDU shirts and a t-shirt underneath, in temperatures just barely above freezing. The senior drill sergeant told everyone not to wear their field jacket liners under their shirts (and it's a padded garment about the same thickness as an arming doublet you can add to the M-65 field jacket for extra warmth), which we had done previous days on the rifle range and other training sites. Sure enough, within the first mile, I was no longer cold, despite wearing just a t-shirt and shirt... and sure enough, a couple of people fell out because they hadn't listened, and had worn their field jacket liners, and were now overheated. The drill sergeant then told the rest of us this happened every platoon, every cycle, and they let it. They didn't check to make sure people weren't wearing the liners, because they wanted to let the knuckleheads learn the hard way. But that's how much heat you will generate marching under an infantry pack, and stepping out at a decent pace (about a fast walk): enough to keep yourself warm in light clothing, in cold winter weather, and to overheat if you wear any extra insulation.
+Darren O'Connor i find it as well, even in fairly cold conditions though in australia it never really gets as cold as it does in the USA or UK but with my gambeson i STILL heat up regardless (though mine is more of a standalone gambeson)
Maybe about the year 2000, I wound up contacting a guy in the states to make some chainmale as heavy as possible for me, which I could also wear underneath regular clothing. I was attempting to use it as weighted accessory training, like wearing ankle weights, or a weighted vest. He made it with a zinc alloy, which he said was actually more historically accurate and fitted to my dimensions. So, by way of chance on that, I have a pretty solid accurate mail shirt. I should get it cleaned up. I tried to paint over it, anything to try and stop the oxidation that kept getting onto my clothes (the main reason it never worked for what I wanted) and on my skin, but that really was dumb. I hope I can restore it some day.
I'm one of those hmb guys and I have to say I agree fully agree. I love the sport and I can do things at a level of intensity that I found hard to get to with just hema, but we're going to have to embrace the sports side of things and push for technically advanced equipment that will allow thrusting in the game. better protection but also electronic detection.
Way better lighting, Matt. I'm not usually one to care about image or sound quality on educational videos, but the difference is very noticeable. Love it when you upload longer vids like this. Rock on, man.
I have enjoyed your videos for a very long time, so I finally decided to leave this long overdue comment. Thank you, Mr. Easton, for sharing your collection of arms & armor, your extensive knowledge of historical combat, and your spot-on, common-sense perspective regarding these things. This video is just another in a long line of top-quality, simple, and to-the-point productions that both enlighten and entertain. The change in camera angle and lighting seems to be working, though time will tell if you may choose to further refine your methods. One thing I hope you will never change is the fact you do not use background music. I much prefer being able to listen to you without some distracting tune competing for my attention. In any case, "Bravo!", "Huzzah!", my compliments and encouragement to keep up the good work, and -- as always -- "Cheers!"
Recently had a debate about this. I said that the arming doublet did have some padding and maille sewn in on some exposed areas. The two other guys said no padding at all was needed or used. All my research pointed to some padding but not big bulky padding.
In one of those "Knight Fights" or Medieval fights, the russian MMA guys in chainmail and plate who whack eachoher with blunt swords. One of mentioned that when their armour was properly fitted to their body they could take blows and it wouldn't even hurt.
I'm in the SCA and an aspiring armourer. And I completely agree with you. It is quite funny how I've completely bypassed the snug fit maille armour though, since I am training myself to see how armour "actually" looks. This goes for all armour. Reenactors have no idea how it should look, and because of that it doesnt work as it should, and you need more padding. I and my armouring teacher are experimenting with building more proper armour with correct amount of padding for use in the SCA. I might upload a video if it's a success. So far most of what I've built works =)
Various historical sources do mention the importance of padding under armor. I'm sure it was less than some reenactors use, but it was significant. Various accounts likewise do describe blow against armor, such as the one from Flodden Field 1513 where armored Scottish pikers apparently remained standing after being hit by four or more bill strokes at once. Despite this, battering with bills got the job done. Some BoN matches give a glimpse of that kind of fighting.
Heat and trapped heat is a killer, I remember watching a full contact joust at the Geogra Ren faire back in June of 1986 where the temperature was 86F and the humidity was 90% and ather a half hour "show" I saw the fighters being doused with Ice Water as the armor was being removed to cool off, they had a half gallon of ice water poured on them.
Angle is fine, lightning only has the problem, that your light from write is not balanced to daylight so you have different hues on your face, which makes your left side look a little bit pale. So if you have the new lighting set up, try to balance all lights to the same colour temperature and if you use daylight adjust to that. And nice video with good points about the heat. But a good silken shirt underneat can really do wonders to stay cool^^
Well I have to behonest heat is often my biggest problem in armor. My padding is not overly thick for what it is, although I'm wearing a standalone gambeson sow it also protect's my arms, which means it's pretty darn thick. The fit of everything I'm wearing is pretty darn thight, but that's only cause I custom fitted everything after buying it.
I just wanted to thow in that Battle of the Nations, while not representing armored warfare well, DOES actually resemble historical tournament fighting quite well as can be seen in the french tournament rulesets. Things such as hitting the armored opponent with the edge of your sword were done, not to kill, but to score points.
I think it's a big difference between doing it for training or for fun or doing "the real thing". If we take head protection as an example. When training I want padding that is enough so that I don't get any injury for repetive hits to the head and a minimal risk of concussion. On the other hand, place me on a medieval battlefield and I would have very different priorities. Repetitive hits would not be an issue, and a concussion really isn't a big deal either. If I leave the battle with only a concussion, that would be great. Leaving training with a concussion really sucks.
I agree to the mobility and heat part but padding under plate is also helping against arrows and spears and warhammer spikes and other things the video seams to suggests towards the end that its useless. By help meaning more is better increasing the chances not that it always saves you from injury or death. If you got a retinue handing the logistics so as a wealthier "knight" I think you might maybe want to have multiples options for thicker or thinner padding depending on environment and expected activity?
+Cyberian Korninger You're not technically wrong, but you're approaching the problem from the wrong direction, I think. 1st- The same amount of metal stretched around a larger form means less metal between you and the blow. (and in addition to the additional weight and encumbrance of the padding, will also actually increase the armor's effective angular momentum by making it further from the center of whatever rotation you're doing....in short, you have a geometric, rather than linear relationship here, so it's self-limiting rather quickly) 2nd- fighting in armor in summer is ridiculously exhausting. Even using lightweight armor (with extra affordances from modern materials), not needing to wear it all day, just doing it for sport, etc. heat exhaustion is still something you need to be really careful of. Even just small amounts of overheating/dehydration can drastically affect your ability to perform (and when you're life is riding on your strength, reaction time, and judgement being at their best, that's not a minor issue) 3rd- Mail's protection is largely amplified by your ability to roll with the blows and get them to glance off your armor. This is pretty hard to overstate how important it is, actually, and becoming more bulky will get in the way of that. 4th- if you can afford the added encumbrance of the thicker padding, you have better options: heavier mail (better protection for weight at that point), a sturdier shield, another backup weapon to give you more options later, etc 5th- One of the biggest dangers for someone in heavy armor is being taken to the ground. Anything that makes it easier to be put there, or slower to get back up makes you more likely to be clubbed/impaled with some big weapon or grappled and getting a dagger to the face/groin. In the end, the net effect is a negative amount of protection, despite that the same blow against a static target will, as you say, do less damage with more padding.
Thank you Matt, the inches thick padding underneath mail and plate in HEMA and SCA has always bothered me. Apart from the weird looks I agree with you on the non-historical part, and although it is true that thicker padding might help against puncturing, the lack in practicability and maneuverability certainly weigh heavily against it. Actually you can see it in every reenactment battle today, as soon as the fight is over the participants will take off the heavy padding because of the heat and movement restrictions - certainly not a luxury that every man-at-arms and foot soldier could afford back in the days, especially considering that battles would take hours and days, not mere minutes.
Lloyd of Lindybeige did an interesting video where he'd tried to make a padded under-coif to go under his mail coif. His first attempt was ridiculously overpadded and as well as being hot interfered with his balance and movement to a considerable degree
I thought of that episode too. I think Lloyd talked about the credibility of artworks in that video, which could be applied to this one. There should be a happy middle between slim paddings shown in pictures and heavy ones that can exhaust a person like the Mk. I cap Lloyd made, and that balance may have been achieved in history.
Not a bad angle. one minor gripe though: there is a slight reflection from your window in your picture frames. Videos are awesome as always, keep it up!
I heard about the Maciejowski Bible. I also heard that there is a picture that has a weapon known as the Bible Chopper in it. I have tried to find out some information about this Bible Chopper but have not had much luck. I have seen some videos on RUclips about it but they had little to no information about it.
Thank you for preaching the good word, Matt. This saves me a lot of explaining I can just send this link now to everyone that is sending me links to the Battle of the Nations and other Bludgeon-Fests with "Look how cool this super realistic medieval fighting is!" ::: eyeroll :::
As an American it took me a second to get the French pronounced "lavaliere" lol. It just gets an English phonetic pronunciation here (lava-leer). And being from Michigan butchering French words is even more of a tradition for me.
Maciejowski is spelt somewhat like "Matsieiowski" or "Matchieiowski". Simply put, the "c" isn't a "k", it's a harsher, shorter "s"; and the "j" is just a longer "i" - the "j" sound is represented by "dż". So, since you may use it in the future - here you go.
Hey Matt! I think the quality of the videos and sound is just fine. Totally adequate. So rather than investing in new tech-gear, invest in new cool arms and armor, that you can show us. :D
Thanks for the video Matt. I have a problem with overheating in my gambeson and would like to see about acquiring an authentically constructed one. Would you consider doing a video where you go into detail on medieval gambeson construction and what the typical balance between protection and performance was (thickness, sleeve type, etc.)? Also, can you discuss how gambesons were used in conjunction with chain maille? Was it different in construction compared to a gambeson used without chain maille? I'm a big fan of your videos! They give me a much needed mental break from my busy life. Please keep them coming!
Enlightening video. This has always bothered me with the modern gambeson replications. After spending quite some time in the army in summertime I can tell you that even only wearing the summer model jacket and pants without any padding underneath your body armor and combat vest will get extremely hot. I can only imagine the hell you'd be in if there was several layers of cloth and armor that covered the whole body.
I agree that people in medieval times were getting more exercise, but that also ate a lot of carbs and drank a lot of beer. They did have sweets, especially using honey as a sweetener. Even in ancient times there were professional confectioners.
Not a whole lot of simple carbs though, at least the common people. Until fairly recent times whole grain stuff was what was consumed by the majority of the population - they would have a ton of fiber in their diet!
I used to be a fan of SCA and Battle of the Nations but after watching your videos for a while, I started to realize how silly and ridiculous they both are (most of the time at least)
How effective is blunt force against plate anyway? Plate afaik (correct me if I am wrong) can resist even longbow and crossbow shots as well as lance hits quite well, so a hit from a 2-3 kg weapon shouldn't be that big of a deal. Plus plate is better at making weapons glance off than mail is. Again, if I am wrong pls correct me.
+Frost Blast You're pretty much right. The exception is that a strike from a weapon like that can do a lot of damage if it hits your elbow or knee joint. Even if the armour prevents your bones from breaking, a dent on those joints can immobilize the limb. Also, a full-force strike to the helmet can cause a minor to major concussion (I got a minor one from an axe-handle strike to the head once), which can degrade your opponent's ability to fight pretty considerably. Blunt force is more of a debuff against plate in that it weakens your opponent and makes it easier to put them on the ground.
+Frost Blast JMO, but I think plate is would be proof against blunt blows with the exception of the head. A solid enough blow to the head doesn't have to defeat the armor, just displace the head enough to cause the brain to bounce around inside causing stunning, unconsciousness, or maybe concussion. This becomes a question of neck strength not armor quality. Of course the helmet is designs so that landing a solid, non-glancing, blow would be difficult.
@@mattlentzner674 in essence, yes. Joint hits, collar bone hits, and especially hand hits can also cause some injury though, which in turn ,makes it easier to deal with them in a different way. It's hard to parry that strike to the head when your hand is broken!
Could the disparity between modern reenactment armour and professional armour meant for warfare of the period be compared to the difference between tourney armour and military armour of the period? It sounds like they serve the same function IE keep one safe rather than keep one alive, if only because at most tourney's people wouldn't be trying to outright kill each other. People might also have wanted more padding at a tourney as it's more likely to injure you than kill you and you want to preform well later but aren't as concerned about all the rigors of fighting a war. Also would the average mailed soldier's armour (assuming one could afford or was provided mail) Have been fitted or would they look somewhat shapeless, though maybe not as padded as today's reenactors?
Can you think of any contemporary examples of these thinner medieval style gambesons? Would these thinner gambesons be constructed using a few layers of linen or heavy cloth without using padding between the layers? If so, how many layers were typically used.
That sallet helmet you were holding seems to have a suspension system in it that looks a lot like the kind used in a WW II era German helmet. Most Medieval helmets that I have seen don't seem to have any suspension but maybe a cloth liner so that the metal helmet is essen tially resting directly on the wearer's head or on a padded cap if he is wearing such a thing. A suspension system that keeps a bit of distance between the metal of the helmet and the head of the wearer is a real advantage to avoiding a concussion if the helmet is struck and even providing a bit of a gap that could be life saving if the helmet is penetrated. How common were suspensions on medieval helmets and is there a time period after which they came into common use? All modern military helmets use them.
+scholagladitoria Salute from Norway! I am in the process of making myself a gambeson, and I was wondering, how many layers of quilted cloth is historical, under say mail and/or brigandine?
Heat exhaustion is far more of a threat to a soldier/warrior than encumbrance, by far. SCA and HEMA practice in 35-40 degree sunny weather, with a steel helmet, steel cuirass, linen tunic, cuir boilli and steel arms/legs and gauntlets, ...god damn I was dying. The heat just gets trapped in your helmet and torso armor and you boil alive. I literally couldn't even remember my friend's name next to me I was overheated so badly. Stark contrast to fighting in tournaments and battles 25-32 degrees, cloudy and windy, when it felt like we could fight all day. Most of the people I see doing sca don't even use an aketon or gambeson and if they do it's hardly 2-3 layers of linen. Very thin. Just enough to stop armor bite and buffer. You see some guys out there with just a helmet, kidney belt, knee and elbow guards, and gauntlets.
Most of the guys in my club use them, I belong to the Stoccata School in Australia. Would it be possible for you to do a video on Meyer? I would love to hear your opinions on the treatise and style as opposed to the Italian schools.
Unfortunately it seems we can't see it without a facebook account. I can get a bit of a look at it, but facebook puts a translucent white screen insisting you log in which takes up more and more of the screen as you scroll down. Sort of what like pintrest does, if you've ever seen that.
If wearing lots of padded textile underneath the armor has lots of drawbacks, could the use of that kind of garment used as a surcoat, therefore over the metalic armor, be a huge advantage? Could the use of a padded surcoat help against overheating once it can work as a termal insulation?
I recently took a staff workshop, we were using lighter staffs but the amount of power i could generate was surprisingly high. Now imagining a proper shaft and a big lump of metal on the end of that shaft the amount of power a polearm like a halberd could generate is frighteningly huge. Would lightly padded armor really be able to withstand that?
All of the best Battle of the Nations fighters actually look quite sleek and in competitive tournaments do fight to bypass the armour. Hit me a message if you want to chat about it sometime.
Battle of the nations is not a recreation of medieval warfare. It's a recreation of medieval tournaments. It's not sport recreating warfare, it's a revival of a sport.
+Kyle Bezold Even then I don't know if it actually recreate medieval tournaments properly rather than just take the base idea of a few and turn them into bashfests.
What kind of padding was worn before Gambesons? I'm interested in Viking era reenactment and i dont know of anything i can get ahold of between tunics and gambesons
do you think something like a holodeck would help the reanactment (i don't know how it's spelled) scene a lot thanks to reallistic conditions like the chance of killing people(AI)?
He mentioned War Hammers in the video.....I've always thought of War Hammers as kind of pointless (pun). I mean, IF you use the Hammer's pick = it's going to get stuck in whatever helmet/armor you strike. Tests on youtube seem to show that the pick will get stuck in a metal helm (and usually won't penetrate the skull underneath anyway). So here is the question! Why would anyone choose a War Hammer over a Mace?
What was the thickness of padding for mail like? Curious because mail is a bad absorber of blunt force and is extremely flexible, where plate is only as flexible as the articulation and the pourpoint and doublet underneath. But, plate armour that is rigid tend to absorb allot of blunt force by itself. Also, the point of helmets, isn't there tons of examples of how fighters volunterly added thick padding to their because, it actually pretty easy to deliever blunt force trama to the skull, being able to see is so important than the head is almost always open to strikes increasing likihood of in being hit multiple times. You could always fit and lower you visor to breath and cool of of just take the helmet off, helmets aren't really that hard to get out of.
What do you think of the Video Lindybeige put out a month or so ago about coifs? He did admit he over padded his, but had some reasoning as to why he thought at least the Coif had thick padding under it.
Ah but he changed his attempt after looking at period sources. So it seems he is still attempting to follow the sources as Matt advocates here before he goes into the possible reasons.
As far as my expierience goes the BOTN gambesons i´ve seen so far, aren´t that much bigger or more padded than historical ones. There are slightly more padded areas, for sure (outside of the arms, shoulders, basically the spots where you´ll definetly get heavy blows) but these guys are dealing with the same heatexhaustion problems as the guys in the past. Therefore the padding is, if well made, thinner on the inside of the limbs to allow better cooling. The main difference in thicker padding is the helmet. If you´d wear a helmet with a leatherinlay like the one shown in the video you´d probably die by the first horizontal impact or, at least get heavyly injured. And even with this thick padding you can pass ot if you get struck with a, let´s say, "loveley blow" from a helberd. Expierienced this myself. No fun at all. Bam! Lights out. The bulky look of the BOTN/HMB armor depends mostly on the tabbert (the coat of arms wich is worn over the armor). But there are enough figthers without a tabbert if you go for the BOTN triathlon category or take a look for the guys in later period armor (i think the japanese team has two good examples). thumbs up for the new audio setup. A lot better.
There are actual photograph of historic armour, padded alone and padded under mail from both indian and the sahel region of africa. Search Sahel cavalry armour and look at these from the Delhi Durbar in 1903 www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1800_1899/princes/bournephotos/bikanercamels1903b.jpg www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1800_1899/princes/bournephotos/mailedhorseman1903.jpg and see for yourself what people found appropriate.
What is that sword behind you, second from the top? Can you show it off a bit in a future video, perhaps? I've noticed it in other videos, but I don't remember hearing or seeing anything about it.
1)What is actually less or more padding? What I heard from reenactors is 20 layers of linen cloth as a maximum level of protection pretty much across all times where it was used. That is a lot of protection. Sometimes when you stab people with not actually sharp objects they will not notice it even if you put all of your strength into it. So I assume it plays a big role how much padding you have. 2) padding, from the tests I read about is actually, unlike riveted mail, great against thrusts and especially arrows as low energy thrusts. From my own tests on poorly done but thick padding, it was almost impossible to cut through (10% hits went through at all, would cause shallow wound if any at all and even that only on hard surface, with more flexible targets its 0%), and it was somewhat hard to stab through (50% went through on hard surface). This resistance howerver seems to decrease very quickly as you are loosing layers. So I am not saying that thin padding was not used, I am just not entirely convinced by the presented reasons why. Thin padding would only justify more attempts to break through rather than bypass the armor. So we need to discus more how often you actually get an opportunity to get a full-power uninterrupted strike in a combat scenario.
+Josef Hrůza And while the criticism of the Battle of Nations is obviously justified, I would like to hear more about the assumption that arrow did penetrate padding and on what sources/tests/logic its based. that is the part that almost got skipped in the video
@@shyzunk 20 layers of linen will not stop arrows from a longbow or equivalently powered crossbow. A sharp, pointed weapon will easily penetrate too, without much effort. The fibres simply slide apart as the point makes contact, allowing the edge to cut them. A blunt edge is far less of a threat. The gambeson was more effective against cuts. Even modern Kevlar struggles against knife thrusts.
Spent $400 getting a gambeson made for me, I told them "Go light on the padding, it gets really hot here." Apparently, "Really hot" is something entirely different in Poland, than it is here in California, lol. It's tailored really well, but it's still like wearing a quilt. Probably shouldn't be reenacting anything in 115 Fahrenheit though.
if armor had little padding, why didnt everyone just use bugging weapons? It seems like a mace is a much better weapon of choice against a sword, yes a sword you can half sword but a mace wont have to worry about thrusting in to the gap or turn it around. It seems much easier just to bash the armor with a mace
Hitting a person in plate armor with a mace is actually not as effective as you might think. With a one handed mace or warhammer, only blows to the head and the joints will likely hurt the person, the plate themselves are quite effective against deformation. With two handed pole weapons like poleaxes you could attack more areas but still the head and the joints are the main targets. Hitting someone in the breastplate with a poleaxe wont really incapacitate them, with a one handed mace the person might not even be slowed down at all. Against mail a sword is actually quite an effective blunt trauma weapon, since it concentrated the force of the blow on a smaller area than a mace or a warhammer. Plus a sword is a much more wieldy than either, have a longer reach, and can thrust, which is a great way of targeting non-armored body parts like the face or groin, or to pierce through the padded armor that common infantrymen mostly wear.
What baffles me even more is when viking age reenactors say that the warriors in that period HAD to wear padding under their chainmail, despite the fact that no gambeson finds or depictions survive from that period. And they claim vikings HAD to have gambesons, because getting hit on a chainmail put over a woolen tunic is "uncomfortable". Not only do the links disperse force really well, but it's not like the mail is there to make getting hit comfy. It's there to save your life had your skills or your shield failed. Same reason why modern special forces don't wear padding under their bulletproof vests - and yet being shot at that is not the most comfy thing to survive. Bottom line being - survive.
Hey Matt, love the videos, I'm amazed at how long you've kept me watching something I started with only a passing interest in. I hope you someday get around to discussing how climate and environment in different regions effects local weapons and, in turn armor(Chicken and the egg)! Keep up the videos, glad to see your sub numbers going up.
Seeing as thou it is impossible to recreate armoured fighting correctly, as thrusting in between the gaps in the plates will likely kill the person inside, this sword and armour bashing that we see in Battle of Nations and M1-Medieval is likely the closest thing we can have to historical armoured combat.
I miss the days when I knew next to nothing about medieval arms and armor and Battle of the Nations seemed like the coolest thing ever. It's astonishing how quickly your view of something can shift from "Epic battle of skill and honor, upholding the traditions of the olden days" to "Bunch of idiots uselessly flailing at eachother like angry LARPers".
Ah, I miss the times of the hastiludes, when people weren't so afraid of getting hurt.
Yeah, I wanted to get into IMCF stuff, but eventually realized that I might as well just go larping instead. At least with foam swords you can thrust to the actual weak points in the armor instead of trying to do the exact opposite.
Ype, I have the same feelings about my time in the SCA! Some 35 yrs ago by now.
6 years later... I don't know what, "Battle of the Nations" is. Did you ever find something that cranked your tractor after you were disillusioned? In 2022, it feels like(to me) that real video from full contact sports and the incredible amount of video from war support the popular viewpoint expressed in this guy's videos.
Do you agree or disagree? Did you continue this course of interest? Are you even alive?
As an SCA reenactor I think you nailed it. Padding matters so you don't break a bone or get a concussion. Our helms especially are intentionally heavier, better padded and more covering than in period because we like our brains, even though we end up looking like bobble heads sometimes.
+capitalistraven Exactly. When I was doing SCA twenty-five years ago, my unit wore the cheapest homemade armors. I was without a jack, wearing a leather-covered, formed ABS plastic cuirass over a plaid tunic. My legs were ABS plastic of the "shovel" design, and my arms were leather with metal elbows -- hockey gloves for gauntlets. Looking back, I should have been concerned that this was no protection. However, my helmet was huge and heavy, filled with a handcrafted foam padding/duct tape insert. My face was protected by a tight grill that would have been at home on a hibachi. I could neither see nor hear in this head-bunker, but that was fine because I could barely feel head hits even from heavier weapons. This was appropriate because my job was to hold a massive door-shaped shield, while others behind me did the fighting. Good times...
+Dan Hindes lol well most fighters now who are serious get out of plastic ASAP and into better looking stuff. Thanks to zoombang padding we can get away with wearing chainmail that looks form fitting and we have artisans that will make custom riveted mail shirts and tunics. Also some of the better helms look pretty close to the real thing more through clever design than being authentic. Check out some video of recent crown tournaments to see what our gear looks like now.
"... people don't wanna die on a regular basis." - Matt Easton, 2016.
+zombieteenager007
I really do hate dying on a regular basis...i mean, every now and then sure, but no more than twice a year.
Strang94179 Yeah, it gets a bit tedious after the first few times and it takes up so much of my time.
mum there is a guy with a sword and he asks for money
+Janik Malkovich roon ya thro viv spardoon
Lednybeeg
mum here is a second man iam not sure what he want
i think he want to sell me magic mushrooms
+Janik Malkovich i'll amble roond end roon ya throw viv triple bitten axe
also naplolin wuz a git
+Lednybeeg Are you related to Mat Euaston? I miss that guy.
William Stark
mum here is a third guy
and his NAME is STARK
is it ok to go to War with him to remove House Lannister from Iron Throne
So here's one of those nuances Matt said he might be wrong about:
The really heavy padding in BotN tends to be reserved for the group battles, while the 1-on-1 fighters favour much lighter gambesons that are probably much closer to the historical examples. There has even been a trend recently in BOTN to wear much lighter armour made from spring steel. The reasoning is that in 1-on-1, you can fairly easily see your enemy's blows coming in (since the swords are so stupidly heavy) and take it on a part of your armour thick enough to stop it. I've tried that kind of fighting a few times and found that I can take a full-force shield punch on my coat of plates without any problems.
The biggest "skillset" in BotN is managing your cardio, because you will often fight for 9 minutes at a time. Worse, the way they fight seems calculated to be as energy inefficient as possible.
On the other hand, if you're doing a group battle, you never know when a great big Russian will blindside you with a hit on the spine from a 10 pound halberd, so yes you need a stupid amount of padding.
+MisdirectedSasha Interesting, thanks.
9 minutes is a hella long time to be fighting flat-out! :O
Stay Puff marshmallow man, words I thought I would never hear you speak.
It's good to know I'm not the only one to think this way.
THANK YOU! I have been saying this to soo many people trying to compare traditional armor and modern armor and they just don't seem to understand. I'll start forwarding them to your video.
I watched a battle of nations video once and immediately thought that while it looked kinda cool, they were just bludgeoning each other senselessly with swords, and I want impressed
+skykid And aging with this BS, if you try just bash somebody you will lose, they using technics some even from HEMA ;).
And you know they fight like that because it is sport which is base on reenactment/HEMA but is just sport, and rules are not meant to be realistic, is just like I don't know sport boxing.
And people often complain about them fighting in armor as the would fight without armor, but you can't safe use treaty fencing.
And one more, in fact battle of nations is more similar to group melee buhurt in medieval times.
Taking a strip out of your suit wouldn't do it. You need to have "contractions" put in, in several places. Most notably you likely need them under the shoulder blades, to draw it in across your back. You may also need to have some put in around the waist. These consist of areas where the usual 4-in-1 weave actually links to three rings, on the bottom end, to reduce the number of rows of links.
Better angle, better light, better sound, thumbs up :)
I want to touch everything on your walls. Your man cave/ office is THE envy!!!
You have no idea how helpfull is this video to me! I just ordered mail armor for self defence, tailored to my measures, but with no padding. Thanks to your video I realized that my winter vest (which is not that hot) will do the job of giving me some sort of padding.
It saved me more money.
Thank you scholagladiatoria! You helped me a lot.
Very interesting!
FWIW, Ive never noticed a problem with sound or lighting. Save the money for the new mic etc and spend it on sweets or something.
+Harry Black Don't be naive, he'll spend it on weapons.
+Wreqt The man is clearly an addict.
Thank you! Fighting while wearing a gambeson in an Australian summer is hell.
I'm a massive fan of the Maciejowski Bible and the sleekness of the maille wearing knights is obvious. You can see the foot soldiers definitely more bulky with their much cheaper padded armour.
*insert joke about english summer*
English summer.......What's that?
I like the new angle! More lighting is also fantastic.
natural light?.......in England? ....... natural darkness you mean!
+AmberFrame It was a beautiful sunny day with about 20 degrees Celsius yesterday.
+scholagladiatoria
Pics or it didn't happen :-)
+Vladimir S haha!
+AmberFrame I was once 5 days in London in November and on 4 of these days it was really sunny and warm, only the last day was rainy...
+Michael Walz
it was whole 4 days of english summer
This is really valid. Reenacting Waterloo moving through the wheat and hills in thick wool, even in the evening, I was totally soaked with sweat. Like I had taken a shower in my uniform soaked. If it were during the middle of the day in the sun, it would have been difficult to maintain the exertion especially in the melees the whole time unless you were dogging it. We had a lot of people drop out from the movement alone. I consider myself on the better side of average fitness and can stay on bike ride in about any fast group for 40-50 miles so I thought it would be well within my fitness level. You can't pick your line when your are in formation so you expend more energy having to go over stuff instead of around it and keep a steady pace. Walking a straight line through thick wheat over plow ridges, holes and ground abnormalities while carrying heavy stuff puts a lot of load on your legs and calves.The beginning of the second day of the reenactment I was really feeling it. Add armor on top of that and the required activity level of exertion would be marathon like, add a hot day and you would be going down.
Don't underestimate the heat you will generate marching. It depends on how fast you are stepping, but when I went through US army infantry basic training at Ft. Benning, GA, it started in February, so it was still winter. We went on our first tactical foot march, and all we wore was our BDU shirts and a t-shirt underneath, in temperatures just barely above freezing. The senior drill sergeant told everyone not to wear their field jacket liners under their shirts (and it's a padded garment about the same thickness as an arming doublet you can add to the M-65 field jacket for extra warmth), which we had done previous days on the rifle range and other training sites. Sure enough, within the first mile, I was no longer cold, despite wearing just a t-shirt and shirt... and sure enough, a couple of people fell out because they hadn't listened, and had worn their field jacket liners, and were now overheated. The drill sergeant then told the rest of us this happened every platoon, every cycle, and they let it. They didn't check to make sure people weren't wearing the liners, because they wanted to let the knuckleheads learn the hard way.
But that's how much heat you will generate marching under an infantry pack, and stepping out at a decent pace (about a fast walk): enough to keep yourself warm in light clothing, in cold winter weather, and to overheat if you wear any extra insulation.
+Darren O'Connor i find it as well, even in fairly cold conditions though in australia it never really gets as cold as it does in the USA or UK but with my gambeson i STILL heat up regardless (though mine is more of a standalone gambeson)
Maybe about the year 2000, I wound up contacting a guy in the states to make some chainmale as heavy as possible for me, which I could also wear underneath regular clothing. I was attempting to use it as weighted accessory training, like wearing ankle weights, or a weighted vest. He made it with a zinc alloy, which he said was actually more historically accurate and fitted to my dimensions. So, by way of chance on that, I have a pretty solid accurate mail shirt. I should get it cleaned up. I tried to paint over it, anything to try and stop the oxidation that kept getting onto my clothes (the main reason it never worked for what I wanted) and on my skin, but that really was dumb. I hope I can restore it some day.
Now I understand the reanactment sport difference, thank you.
I'm one of those hmb guys and I have to say I agree fully agree. I love the sport and I can do things at a level of intensity that I found hard to get to with just hema, but we're going to have to embrace the sports side of things and push for technically advanced equipment that will allow thrusting in the game. better protection but also electronic detection.
Way better lighting, Matt. I'm not usually one to care about image or sound quality on educational videos, but the difference is very noticeable.
Love it when you upload longer vids like this. Rock on, man.
I have enjoyed your videos for a very long time, so I finally decided to leave this long overdue comment. Thank you, Mr. Easton, for sharing your collection of arms & armor, your extensive knowledge of historical combat, and your spot-on, common-sense perspective regarding these things.
This video is just another in a long line of top-quality, simple, and to-the-point productions that both enlighten and entertain. The change in camera angle and lighting seems to be working, though time will tell if you may choose to further refine your methods.
One thing I hope you will never change is the fact you do not use background music. I much prefer being able to listen to you without some distracting tune competing for my attention. In any case, "Bravo!", "Huzzah!", my compliments and encouragement to keep up the good work, and -- as always -- "Cheers!"
The lighting looks great.
Recently had a debate about this. I said that the arming doublet did have some padding and maille sewn in on some exposed areas. The two other guys said no padding at all was needed or used. All my research pointed to some padding but not big bulky padding.
In one of those "Knight Fights" or Medieval fights, the russian MMA guys in chainmail and plate who whack eachoher with blunt swords. One of mentioned that when their armour was properly fitted to their body they could take blows and it wouldn't even hurt.
Everything looks great Matt
MATT! This angle is good. Good stuff
I'm in the SCA and an aspiring armourer. And I completely agree with you. It is quite funny how I've completely bypassed the snug fit maille armour though, since I am training myself to see how armour "actually" looks. This goes for all armour. Reenactors have no idea how it should look, and because of that it doesnt work as it should, and you need more padding.
I and my armouring teacher are experimenting with building more proper armour with correct amount of padding for use in the SCA. I might upload a video if it's a success. So far most of what I've built works =)
Various historical sources do mention the importance of padding under armor. I'm sure it was less than some reenactors use, but it was significant. Various accounts likewise do describe blow against armor, such as the one from Flodden Field 1513 where armored Scottish pikers apparently remained standing after being hit by four or more bill strokes at once. Despite this, battering with bills got the job done. Some BoN matches give a glimpse of that kind of fighting.
Heat and trapped heat is a killer, I remember watching a full contact joust at the Geogra Ren faire back in June of 1986 where the temperature was 86F and the humidity was 90% and ather a half hour "show" I saw the fighters being doused with Ice Water as the armor was being removed to cool off, they had a half gallon of ice water poured on them.
your new angle is great,
I love the new angle!
Angle is fine, lightning only has the problem, that your light from write is not balanced to daylight so you have different hues on your face, which makes your left side look a little bit pale. So if you have the new lighting set up, try to balance all lights to the same colour temperature and if you use daylight adjust to that.
And nice video with good points about the heat. But a good silken shirt underneat can really do wonders to stay cool^^
I like the new angle.
Duel Mike Loades to the death.
+Joshua Kirk No, I like Mike :-)
I think it would just end in a great conversation about British cavalry .
+scholagladiatoria First blood it is!
The new angle looks good. You've got vertical thirds and you're standing in the middle third. You could offset it slightly if you wanna get fancy.
Better angle, better lightning
thanks for sharing this, I was thinking the same thing.
Well I have to behonest heat is often my biggest problem in armor. My padding is not overly thick for what it is, although I'm wearing a standalone gambeson sow it also protect's my arms, which means it's pretty darn thick. The fit of everything I'm wearing is pretty darn thight, but that's only cause I custom fitted everything after buying it.
I just wanted to thow in that Battle of the Nations, while not representing armored warfare well, DOES actually resemble historical tournament fighting quite well as can be seen in the french tournament rulesets. Things such as hitting the armored opponent with the edge of your sword were done, not to kill, but to score points.
I think it's a big difference between doing it for training or for fun or doing "the real thing".
If we take head protection as an example. When training I want padding that is enough so that I don't get any injury for repetive hits to the head and a minimal risk of concussion.
On the other hand, place me on a medieval battlefield and I would have very different priorities. Repetitive hits would not be an issue, and a concussion really isn't a big deal either.
If I leave the battle with only a concussion, that would be great. Leaving training with a concussion really sucks.
+gurkfisk89 Mostly because you do battles once in a lifetime, and you train (almost) every day
I agree to the mobility and heat part but padding under plate is also helping against arrows and spears and warhammer spikes and other things the video seams to suggests towards the end that its useless. By help meaning more is better increasing the chances not that it always saves you from injury or death.
If you got a retinue handing the logistics so as a wealthier "knight" I think you might maybe want to have multiples options for thicker or thinner padding depending on environment and expected activity?
+Cyberian Korninger You're not technically wrong, but you're approaching the problem from the wrong direction, I think.
1st- The same amount of metal stretched around a larger form means less metal between you and the blow. (and in addition to the additional weight and encumbrance of the padding, will also actually increase the armor's effective angular momentum by making it further from the center of whatever rotation you're doing....in short, you have a geometric, rather than linear relationship here, so it's self-limiting rather quickly)
2nd- fighting in armor in summer is ridiculously exhausting. Even using lightweight armor (with extra affordances from modern materials), not needing to wear it all day, just doing it for sport, etc. heat exhaustion is still something you need to be really careful of. Even just small amounts of overheating/dehydration can drastically affect your ability to perform (and when you're life is riding on your strength, reaction time, and judgement being at their best, that's not a minor issue)
3rd- Mail's protection is largely amplified by your ability to roll with the blows and get them to glance off your armor. This is pretty hard to overstate how important it is, actually, and becoming more bulky will get in the way of that.
4th- if you can afford the added encumbrance of the thicker padding, you have better options: heavier mail (better protection for weight at that point), a sturdier shield, another backup weapon to give you more options later, etc
5th- One of the biggest dangers for someone in heavy armor is being taken to the ground. Anything that makes it easier to be put there, or slower to get back up makes you more likely to be clubbed/impaled with some big weapon or grappled and getting a dagger to the face/groin.
In the end, the net effect is a negative amount of protection, despite that the same blow against a static target will, as you say, do less damage with more padding.
Thank you Matt, the inches thick padding underneath mail and plate in HEMA and SCA has always bothered me. Apart from the weird looks I agree with you on the non-historical part, and although it is true that thicker padding might help against puncturing, the lack in practicability and maneuverability certainly weigh heavily against it. Actually you can see it in every reenactment battle today, as soon as the fight is over the participants will take off the heavy padding because of the heat and movement restrictions - certainly not a luxury that every man-at-arms and foot soldier could afford back in the days, especially considering that battles would take hours and days, not mere minutes.
Lloyd of Lindybeige did an interesting video where he'd tried to make a padded under-coif to go under his mail coif. His first attempt was ridiculously overpadded and as well as being hot interfered with his balance and movement to a considerable degree
I thought of that episode too. I think Lloyd talked about the credibility of artworks in that video, which could be applied to this one. There should be a happy middle between slim paddings shown in pictures and heavy ones that can exhaust a person like the Mk. I cap Lloyd made, and that balance may have been achieved in history.
Not a bad angle. one minor gripe though: there is a slight reflection from your window in your picture frames. Videos are awesome as always, keep it up!
If you're interested - it's +- "Machee eyovski" (listen here pl.forvo.com/word/bernard_maciejowski/ )
I heard about the Maciejowski Bible. I also heard that there is a picture that has a weapon known as the Bible Chopper in it. I have tried to find out some information about this Bible Chopper but have not had much luck. I have seen some videos on RUclips about it but they had little to no information about it.
Thank you for preaching the good word, Matt. This saves me a lot of explaining I can just send this link now to everyone that is sending me links to the Battle of the Nations and other Bludgeon-Fests with "Look how cool this super realistic medieval fighting is!" ::: eyeroll :::
As an American it took me a second to get the French pronounced "lavaliere" lol. It just gets an English phonetic pronunciation here (lava-leer). And being from Michigan butchering French words is even more of a tradition for me.
Great video! Great explanation.
Maciejowski is spelt somewhat like "Matsieiowski" or "Matchieiowski".
Simply put, the "c" isn't a "k", it's a harsher, shorter "s"; and the "j" is just a longer "i" - the "j" sound is represented by "dż".
So, since you may use it in the future - here you go.
Match-ie-iov-ski ?
+Yagi or just listen a translator translate.google.com/#en/pl/Maciejowski
Using the standard phonemic, the closest should be /mᴧtʃıǝˈjᴐvski/.
+Yagi I always refer to it, jockingly, as "the hard-to-pronounce bible" and everyone in my reenactment group knows what I'm talking about xD
+Matías Tonazzi Many people have used "Mispronounski Bible".
Hey Matt! I think the quality of the videos and sound is just fine. Totally adequate. So rather than investing in new tech-gear, invest in new cool arms and armor, that you can show us. :D
Thanks for the video Matt. I have a problem with overheating in my gambeson and would like to see about acquiring an authentically constructed one. Would you consider doing a video where you go into detail on medieval gambeson construction and what the typical balance between protection and performance was (thickness, sleeve type, etc.)? Also, can you discuss how gambesons were used in conjunction with chain maille? Was it different in construction compared to a gambeson used without chain maille? I'm a big fan of your videos! They give me a much needed mental break from my busy life. Please keep them coming!
Enlightening video. This has always bothered me with the modern gambeson replications. After spending quite some time in the army in summertime I can tell you that even only wearing the summer model jacket and pants without any padding underneath your body armor and combat vest will get extremely hot. I can only imagine the hell you'd be in if there was several layers of cloth and armor that covered the whole body.
I agree that people in medieval times were getting more exercise, but that also ate a lot of carbs and drank a lot of beer. They did have sweets, especially using honey as a sweetener. Even in ancient times there were professional confectioners.
Not a whole lot of simple carbs though, at least the common people. Until fairly recent times whole grain stuff was what was consumed by the majority of the population - they would have a ton of fiber in their diet!
I used to be a fan of SCA and Battle of the Nations but after watching your videos for a while, I started to realize how silly and ridiculous they both are (most of the time at least)
+ImEvan To be fair, SCA is supposed to be silly. Their tagline is 'the middle ages as they should have been'.
+ImEvan To be fair, SCA is supposed to be silly. Their tagline is 'the middle ages as they should have been'.
How effective is blunt force against plate anyway? Plate afaik (correct me if I am wrong) can resist even longbow and crossbow shots as well as lance hits quite well, so a hit from a 2-3 kg weapon shouldn't be that big of a deal. Plus plate is better at making weapons glance off than mail is. Again, if I am wrong pls correct me.
+Frost Blast You're pretty much right.
The exception is that a strike from a weapon like that can do a lot of damage if it hits your elbow or knee joint. Even if the armour prevents your bones from breaking, a dent on those joints can immobilize the limb.
Also, a full-force strike to the helmet can cause a minor to major concussion (I got a minor one from an axe-handle strike to the head once), which can degrade your opponent's ability to fight pretty considerably.
Blunt force is more of a debuff against plate in that it weakens your opponent and makes it easier to put them on the ground.
+Frost Blast JMO, but I think plate is would be proof against blunt blows with the exception of the head. A solid enough blow to the head doesn't have to defeat the armor, just displace the head enough to cause the brain to bounce around inside causing stunning, unconsciousness, or maybe concussion. This becomes a question of neck strength not armor quality. Of course the helmet is designs so that landing a solid, non-glancing, blow would be difficult.
@@mattlentzner674 in essence, yes. Joint hits, collar bone hits, and especially hand hits can also cause some injury though, which in turn ,makes it easier to deal with them in a different way. It's hard to parry that strike to the head when your hand is broken!
Could the disparity between modern reenactment armour and professional armour meant for warfare of the period be compared to the difference between tourney armour and military armour of the period? It sounds like they serve the same function IE keep one safe rather than keep one alive, if only because at most tourney's people wouldn't be trying to outright kill each other. People might also have wanted more padding at a tourney as it's more likely to injure you than kill you and you want to preform well later but aren't as concerned about all the rigors of fighting a war.
Also would the average mailed soldier's armour (assuming one could afford or was provided mail) Have been fitted or would they look somewhat shapeless, though maybe not as padded as today's reenactors?
+Lurklen Very good points.
Looks great and sounds great
Arne's new 13c outfit? awesome
Can you think of any contemporary examples of these thinner medieval style gambesons? Would these thinner gambesons be constructed using a few layers of linen or heavy cloth without using padding between the layers? If so, how many layers were typically used.
sound is only slightly better. lighting and background are much better!
+Logan Ryder The new mic should greatly improve the sound I think.
That sallet helmet you were holding seems to have a suspension system in it that looks a lot like the kind used in a WW II era German helmet. Most Medieval helmets that I have seen don't seem to have any suspension but maybe a cloth liner so that the metal helmet is essen tially resting directly on the wearer's head or on a padded cap if he is wearing such a thing. A suspension system that keeps a bit of distance between the metal of the helmet and the head of the wearer is a real advantage to avoiding a concussion if the helmet is struck and even providing a bit of a gap that could be life saving if the helmet is penetrated.
How common were suspensions on medieval helmets and is there a time period after which they came into common use? All modern military helmets use them.
Jujitsu is how one defeats an opponent wearing armor when oneself is unarmed.
As mail was durable and would have been inherited for generations, would it not have to be re-tailored for each heir?
I would also imagine that the thicker your padding, the larger (and therefore heavier) your armor has to be.
+scholagladitoria Salute from Norway! I am in the process of making myself a gambeson, and I was wondering, how many layers of quilted cloth is historical, under say mail and/or brigandine?
You forgot to mention tournament fighting!
Heat exhaustion is far more of a threat to a soldier/warrior than encumbrance, by far. SCA and HEMA practice in 35-40 degree sunny weather, with a steel helmet, steel cuirass, linen tunic, cuir boilli and steel arms/legs and gauntlets, ...god damn I was dying. The heat just gets trapped in your helmet and torso armor and you boil alive. I literally couldn't even remember my friend's name next to me I was overheated so badly. Stark contrast to fighting in tournaments and battles 25-32 degrees, cloudy and windy, when it felt like we could fight all day.
Most of the people I see doing sca don't even use an aketon or gambeson and if they do it's hardly 2-3 layers of linen. Very thin. Just enough to stop armor bite and buffer. You see some guys out there with just a helmet, kidney belt, knee and elbow guards, and gauntlets.
+scholagladiatoria What is your opinion of the Spes AP jacket? I'm looking around for good WMA PPE that won't break the bank.
+stevethegecko It's excellent and what I and most of my club use.
Most of the guys in my club use them, I belong to the Stoccata School in Australia.
Would it be possible for you to do a video on Meyer? I would love to hear your opinions on the treatise and style as opposed to the Italian schools.
Unfortunately it seems we can't see it without a facebook account. I can get a bit of a look at it, but facebook puts a translucent white screen insisting you log in which takes up more and more of the screen as you scroll down. Sort of what like pintrest does, if you've ever seen that.
If wearing lots of padded textile underneath the armor has lots of drawbacks, could the use of that kind of garment used as a surcoat, therefore over the metalic armor, be a huge advantage? Could the use of a padded surcoat help against overheating once it can work as a termal insulation?
I recently took a staff workshop, we were using lighter staffs but the amount of power i could generate was surprisingly high. Now imagining a proper shaft and a big lump of metal on the end of that shaft the amount of power a polearm like a halberd could generate is frighteningly huge. Would lightly padded armor really be able to withstand that?
All of the best Battle of the Nations fighters actually look quite sleek and in competitive tournaments do fight to bypass the armour.
Hit me a message if you want to chat about it sometime.
Battle of the nations is not a recreation of medieval warfare. It's a recreation of medieval tournaments. It's not sport recreating warfare, it's a revival of a sport.
+Kyle Bezold Even then I don't know if it actually recreate medieval tournaments properly rather than just take the base idea of a few and turn them into bashfests.
why is it then called battle of the nations and not battle of the fit men?
botn is basically full contact stage fighting
damn, i have to change my padding, and the armour!
You look a bit orange compared to the old camera, but everything's nice and crisp
What kind of padding was worn before Gambesons? I'm interested in Viking era reenactment and i dont know of anything i can get ahold of between tunics and gambesons
Love the new setting, looks a little "claustrophobic"; to coin a phrase. But is much more interesting.
do you think something like a holodeck would help the reanactment (i don't know how it's spelled) scene a lot thanks to reallistic conditions like the chance of killing people(AI)?
He mentioned War Hammers in the video.....I've always thought of War Hammers as kind of pointless (pun). I mean, IF you use the Hammer's pick = it's going to get stuck in whatever helmet/armor you strike. Tests on youtube seem to show that the pick will get stuck in a metal helm (and usually won't penetrate the skull underneath anyway).
So here is the question! Why would anyone choose a War Hammer over a Mace?
What was the thickness of padding for mail like? Curious because mail is a bad absorber of blunt force and is extremely flexible, where plate is only as flexible as the articulation and the pourpoint and doublet underneath. But, plate armour that is rigid tend to absorb allot of blunt force by itself. Also, the point of helmets, isn't there tons of examples of how fighters volunterly added thick padding to their because, it actually pretty easy to deliever blunt force trama to the skull, being able to see is so important than the head is almost always open to strikes increasing likihood of in being hit multiple times. You could always fit and lower you visor to breath and cool of of just take the helmet off, helmets aren't really that hard to get out of.
What do you think of the Video Lindybeige put out a month or so ago about coifs? He did admit he over padded his, but had some reasoning as to why he thought at least the Coif had thick padding under it.
Ah but he changed his attempt after looking at period sources. So it seems he is still attempting to follow the sources as Matt advocates here before he goes into the possible reasons.
Ruarscampbell His first attempt was stupidly over padded. His second is better but still very thick.
08:39 "People don't want to die on a regular basis" - :)
Is there any similarities between "melée" in mediveal tournaments and what they do in Battle of The Nations?
As far as my expierience goes the BOTN gambesons i´ve seen so far, aren´t that much bigger or more padded than historical ones. There are slightly more padded areas, for sure (outside of the arms, shoulders, basically the spots where you´ll definetly get heavy blows) but these guys are dealing with the same heatexhaustion problems as the guys in the past. Therefore the padding is, if well made, thinner on the inside of the limbs to allow better cooling. The main difference in thicker padding is the helmet. If you´d wear a helmet with a leatherinlay like the one shown in the video you´d probably die by the first horizontal impact or, at least get heavyly injured. And even with this thick padding you can pass ot if you get struck with a, let´s say, "loveley blow" from a helberd. Expierienced this myself. No fun at all. Bam! Lights out.
The bulky look of the BOTN/HMB armor depends mostly on the tabbert (the coat of arms wich is worn over the armor). But there are enough figthers without a tabbert if you go for the BOTN triathlon category or take a look for the guys in later period armor (i think the japanese team has two good examples).
thumbs up for the new audio setup. A lot better.
There are actual photograph of historic armour, padded alone and padded under mail from both indian and the sahel region of africa.
Search Sahel cavalry armour and look at these from the Delhi Durbar in 1903 www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1800_1899/princes/bournephotos/bikanercamels1903b.jpg www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1800_1899/princes/bournephotos/mailedhorseman1903.jpg and see for yourself what people found appropriate.
What is that sword behind you, second from the top? Can you show it off a bit in a future video, perhaps? I've noticed it in other videos, but I don't remember hearing or seeing anything about it.
1)What is actually less or more padding? What I heard from reenactors is 20 layers of linen cloth as a maximum level of protection pretty much across all times where it was used. That is a lot of protection. Sometimes when you stab people with not actually sharp objects they will not notice it even if you put all of your strength into it. So I assume it plays a big role how much padding you have.
2) padding, from the tests I read about is actually, unlike riveted mail, great against thrusts and especially arrows as low energy thrusts. From my own tests on poorly done but thick padding, it was almost impossible to cut through (10% hits went through at all, would cause shallow wound if any at all and even that only on hard surface, with more flexible targets its 0%), and it was somewhat hard to stab through (50% went through on hard surface). This resistance howerver seems to decrease very quickly as you are loosing layers.
So I am not saying that thin padding was not used, I am just not entirely convinced by the presented reasons why. Thin padding would only justify more attempts to break through rather than bypass the armor. So we need to discus more how often you actually get an opportunity to get a full-power uninterrupted strike in a combat scenario.
+Josef Hrůza And while the criticism of the Battle of Nations is obviously justified, I would like to hear more about the assumption that arrow did penetrate padding and on what sources/tests/logic its based. that is the part that almost got skipped in the video
@@shyzunk 20 layers of linen will not stop arrows from a longbow or equivalently powered crossbow. A sharp, pointed weapon will easily penetrate too, without much effort. The fibres simply slide apart as the point makes contact, allowing the edge to cut them. A blunt edge is far less of a threat. The gambeson was more effective against cuts. Even modern Kevlar struggles against knife thrusts.
Spent $400 getting a gambeson made for me, I told them "Go light on the padding, it gets really hot here." Apparently, "Really hot" is something entirely different in Poland, than it is here in California, lol. It's tailored really well, but it's still like wearing a quilt. Probably shouldn't be reenacting anything in 115 Fahrenheit though.
That must be a really well made, I'm jealous. I just have a cheap 100$ gambeson. X'D
The fit is perfect, it's just hot. Got it from SPES, check them out, they have some cheaper ones.
new angle is nice
+scholagladiatoria At 6:35, is Matt trying to perform Kuji-In?
if armor had little padding, why didnt everyone just use bugging weapons? It seems like a mace is a much better weapon of choice against a sword, yes a sword you can half sword but a mace wont have to worry about thrusting in to the gap or turn it around. It seems much easier just to bash the armor with a mace
Hitting a person in plate armor with a mace is actually not as effective as you might think. With a one handed mace or warhammer, only blows to the head and the joints will likely hurt the person, the plate themselves are quite effective against deformation. With two handed pole weapons like poleaxes you could attack more areas but still the head and the joints are the main targets. Hitting someone in the breastplate with a poleaxe wont really incapacitate them, with a one handed mace the person might not even be slowed down at all.
Against mail a sword is actually quite an effective blunt trauma weapon, since it concentrated the force of the blow on a smaller area than a mace or a warhammer. Plus a sword is a much more wieldy than either, have a longer reach, and can thrust, which is a great way of targeting non-armored body parts like the face or groin, or to pierce through the padded armor that common infantrymen mostly wear.
The fact that you are not aiming to hit the armour (most of the time) would make the need for padding underneath it lesser as well, would it not?
What baffles me even more is when viking age reenactors say that the warriors in that period HAD to wear padding under their chainmail, despite the fact that no gambeson finds or depictions survive from that period. And they claim vikings HAD to have gambesons, because getting hit on a chainmail put over a woolen tunic is "uncomfortable". Not only do the links disperse force really well, but it's not like the mail is there to make getting hit comfy. It's there to save your life had your skills or your shield failed. Same reason why modern special forces don't wear padding under their bulletproof vests - and yet being shot at that is not the most comfy thing to survive. Bottom line being - survive.
Good video. Think someone needs to tell the people from Batman v Superman this. Why is Superman fighting the Michelin Man.
Hey Matt, love the videos, I'm amazed at how long you've kept me watching something I started with only a passing interest in.
I hope you someday get around to discussing how climate and environment in different regions effects local weapons and, in turn armor(Chicken and the egg)!
Keep up the videos, glad to see your sub numbers going up.
Seeing as thou it is impossible to recreate armoured fighting correctly, as thrusting in between the gaps in the plates will likely kill the person inside, this sword and armour bashing that we see in Battle of Nations and M1-Medieval is likely the closest thing we can have to historical armoured combat.