How good is the new Mule Cart? (AoE2)
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- Let's take a look at the new Mule Cart coming in the Mountain Royals DLC. This is a new building available to the Armenians and Georgians, and let's see how it compares to the buildings it replaces.
0:22 Basic overview
2:00 Armenians
3:15 Georgians
4:20 Weak vs raiding
4:55 Smart behavior
6:40 Drawbacks
7:55 Wrap up and example
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Game: Age of Empires II Definitive Edition
If it had been around from the start, I imagine the mule cart would have been something given to all the nomadic civs like huns, Cumans and mongols
It still can. Watch the devs add them to those civs once people are used to them.
@@finsfan90Maybe Magyars too.
@@finsfan90 that is one change i can easily get behind on
Oh my, just imagine how ridiculous Mongols would be lol
I kinda wish they implemented a special nomadic ability for these nomadic civs; like being able to pack/unpack some buildings, similar to how a trebuchet functions. (mostly excluding fortificated buildings like castles)
Or instead of that, they could have a unique military building that has this feature. It could be similar to the AOE3 Japanese's Daimyo/Shogun units. Since this is more of a offensive strategy, the building would lack defensive stats due to being light enough to travel/transport.
I love that AOE 2 continues to evolve! What an amazing game.
Not actually evolving when they use recycled ideas from other games like this clone of the ox cart from AoM
i don't think evolve is the right word, adapt and use what worked in the other age titles is more accurate
Everybody is right, evolving just means change and if other stuff works, does it matter if it's new or taken from somewhere else?
Age of mythology? Honestly my mind went to the special German Settlers in Age 3.
@buzter8135 AoM is older, even the Atlantean villager is the precursor of the German one of the AoE3
Can they be repaired by villagers or healed by monks, and can they be converted and used by other civs (and does it required redemption)?
Seeing as they count as buildings. Prob vill repair and conversion with redemption
@@elonwhatever Oooh converting one would be amazing! Imagine being able to steal one for a civ that doesn't get this!
@@Ashadowtotheworldmost players will probably delete before concerts tho :(
just move it away, that cancel the convertion (building cant be converted from afar)@@Qobp
They're buildings, so they can certainly be repaired. They can also garrison into buildings and can be converted with redemption.
Mule carts moving together with the villagers is a HUGE eco bonus by itself as efficiency is peak 100% of the time, plus you're not paying extra wood to maintain that efficiency, another big bonus.
and no extra build time for each new lumber camp.
Too early to say of course but I bet this might be the first feature nerfed in the inevitable first update changes that comes for every new civ
@@teotlxixtli Gotta sell that DLC
@@Jerome... I would be cynical about it but since the original civs get tweaked too it’s definitely not THAT one sided by percentage when the nerfs come
And you need no action from the player to rebuild those Lumbercamps. In fact you even don't have to look for a new woodline by yourself, if you have scouted one, your wood-eco will move on its own once the old one has run out of wood! Especially in lategame this can be hugh. Its like some extra APM you get for free!
With the mule cart you do not have to lure boar or deer, as you can harvest and drop off where they die.
can't be used on food. Only other resources.
@@Silffi Dude 00:58 HUNTED FOOD!!!!
Wrong. It can be used for hunted food, but not others. Its kind of works like AoE1 storage pit.
@@Silffi it can be used on hunted food, but not berries or farms.
Still would likely be worth luring a boar, unless it's near a group of deer, so that way you don't have a group of villagers exposed and also walking to the boar then to whatever their next resource is
Reminds me of the carts for the Norse in Age of Mythology
That!
Norse* but yeah
@@noobtablet101 ty forgot Norse was religion and nords are regional
Yeah, pretty much the same thing.
that's because it is the cart from age of mythology
The Mule Cart is such a great throwback to Age of Mythology.
"There are three things to remember when playing the Norse."
Would love to see a comparison between this and the ox cart of AoM
Just got an ad for that lol
I was about to say this
Not much to compare. The ox cart won't follow the villagers, but it also can gather everything instead of everything but plants, and it's a lot weaker.
@@Quantumironturtle The Ox cart is also much cheaper and it takes 1 pop cap.
@@Quantumironturtle can the Loki ox cart keep up?
Oops, you said Georgians at 2:40 when talking about Armenians and their +25% mule cart technologies.
Good catch
I'm not going to get the expansion, but whoever is, I'd like to see one of you try building mass mule cart use them as blocking shields against cavs in front of your archers/siege. Mules don't cost population limit anyway, so yeah...
More civs should have these things like the nomadic ones.
I'd be willing to bet that there will be some community 'Nomad' maps starting with a Mule Cart rather than the resources to make a TC right away.
They want you to buy their newst DLC though.
Mongols should also have this cart.
Does it take pop space?
If not can you make an infinite Mule Cart army and march on your opponent?
no, i think. its a bulding
It shouldn't, so you can theoretically do that. It's almost as efficient as a saracen forward market rush, but with the added benefit of listening to the donkey chants while trampling your opponent's base.
That's a good question. I am curious too.
lol hiding monks in an army of mule carts
Yeah thought about this too. Walling Amazon tunnel and then releasing hundreds of carts to soak the arrow fire while you storm in.
They need to give vikings mule carts!
Age of mythology reference
Or maybe even Goths and Teutons since Germans in AOE III had special villagers that rolled with donkeys attached to a cart, better known as the settler wagon.
I suppose they could also solve the issue of the mule cart following too closely is to
Have it have 2 hit boxes one is for collision and another for drop off. They could be very similar
Pleasantly surprised such an oldschool rts like AoE is introducing automated smart behaviour instead of tedious apm fluff. More of that I say
FYI, the wrong celt bonus is highlighted @2:42. The important one is the lumberjacks not infantry
Wait. If the mule cart takes damage as a building, this means that it has a potential to scout dive under arrows quite well.
As a building, it's a low priority target
pierce armor is a lot lower than most buildings-- suspect it will get torn up almost immediately
Get all the defensive building upgrades, then spam loads of them and use them as movement blockers to protect your ranged units from melee attacks, might be weak but they are popless mobile trash u units that will absorb some enemy attacks, or ruin their pathing long enough to kill what's coming your way
@@andya9685now that's original!
thank you, as a west bank palestinian i need this escapism atm, we need an analytical video by you about what could be done about militia line as we saw how even the early champions are useless against crossbows with daut vs tatoh friendly match.
How are you?
@@Specoups nothing much bro you bury your head in the sand when things become hard to see and wonder if tomorrow is your turn, Then life goes on.
@@ryanforgo3500 I want to have hope for you, but I know that would be so hypocritical coming from me, living in a country that actively participates in your sufferings. I can at least say I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
From a wider design perspective, I think this is a really interesting addition. The Mule Cart has a lot of levers that can be pulled for balance (e.g. restricting which Villager types can use it), it makes sense as a potential addition to nomadic civilizations (if needed down the road), and it allows for some really dynamic custom/campaign maps!
i like then skin tbf
Could you make a box formation of these to protect trebs or archers? Could be a great empty pop space way to protect units
Probably not, you can see the options they have at 2:21 and there are only upgrades and garrison there
Mule Cart could be very effective as a sponge unit to throw into fights. ...oh it's a building so I'm guessing units won't prioritise attacking it.
There's gonna be some incredible griefing potential in this unit at high level play
Since it's a building, enemy units should prioritize your units first. It wouldn't be as effective to put in front and absorb arrows like a ram, for instance.
I feel like these might be big for low level players who aren't confident at pushing deer, rather than milling deer they can use this and then send it to wood or gold.
One downside is that it's harder to wall-in your villagers. You don't always want to run away from your valuable resources. If gold or stone is being raided, people often wall-in the villagers, using the mining camp as part of the wall. But with the mule cart, you have to build a longer wall. I can't wait to see this in competitive!
I have never once in my entire life played a multiplayer game of AoE 2. I only really played the campaign when I was a tiny child
Despite this I have never missed a single Spirit of the Law video since I started watching years ago. This video format is just so good.
There are dozens of us
can you drop off other food sources by switching them to a lumberjack or hunter? for the berries example maybe they could been tasked to hunt so they become hunters, and then drop the berries food off
Funny how just yesterday Hera said that SOTL will make exactly this video and here it actually is
For Georgians, what if you started deer instead of sheep for food income, using the cart as a means for forced drop-offs? Would you then be able to keep villager production up without breaks or is it still not enough?
Could farmers/berry pickers get full on food, click on a deer and then drop off at the mule cart?
So mule is very similar to the storage pit in return of rome but it can move.
Mathematician analyzing one of the best strategy games ever created...SOTL deserves millions of subscribers. 😇
Weird comment but ok
Do enemy units treat the cart as a unit or as a building? In the sense that, if there are units nearby, will they know to prioritize those over the mule carts? Otherwise it might be a very valid tactic to mix in some mule carts with your units to soak up some of the damage.
I think they're trying to get people used to more AoM mechanics (as this is effectively a backport of that game's Ox Cart unit in concept) before giving us more info on Retold.
I hope when they remake Age of Mythology they change the Norse Ox kart to be more like the Age of Empires 2 Mule kart,... vise versa I'm glad that when they basically put the AoM Ox kart into AoE2, they improved it instead of needing to micro it constantly like you had to in AoM
Shkipan?
One downside seems to be walling. Lots of players use the lumber and mine camps as part of their walls, mainly vs melee. Think of that gold mining camp with 3 villagers wallet by 2 palisade walls. Mule cart will likely make it harder to pull off
I'm wondering how Redemption will affect conversion of mule cart. Will it be something you have to walk directly next to like a normal building or will it be possible to do it from afar like many siege units. Also, does it take any pop space? With garrisoning a mule cart, what are the limits on their garrisoning? Towers, donjons, castles, fortified churches, gurjaras docks, gujaras mill, khmer house etc.
This was a great addition they took from age of mythology. The spiritual successor to aoe2. Didn't have as good multiplayer though, never did really replace aoe2. Maybe next they could take the walls and rotating buildings to odd angles? I thought they were both good additions. I'm guessing that would be pretty difficult in the square grid that is aoe 2 though.
@2:42 you mistakenly said "Georgians" when talking about Armenians, just a heads up! Thanks for the content!
Does it count as a villager if garrisoned in a tc and enable firing more arrows? Can it be garrisoned in a tower, transport ship, castle and a Khmer house? Do enemies prioritize it as a unit or a building with the patrol command? Does alt+select ignore it like villagers? Does it run away from enemy attacks like villagers? Can you use it to block enemies? Do the foundations block movement like building foundations like a quick-wall? How much space do you need to build it? Can it be built on marsh terrain? Can you place the foundation it in the black fog of war? Does any team bonus affect it?
Learn something new every day, donkeys are constructed with a hammer, can be improved by architecture and are hard to put down with a spear, you'd need a battering ram for that.
Which makes sense since the ram is obviously the donkey's natural predator.
It seems way OP to me. No renewing camps, perfect dropoff and garrison ability. Find Gold and stone far away? No prob, mule cart takes the place of a town centre for getting resources. A patch of deer? Mule cart in the centre and hunt away. The cart can just move towards the hunters as they butcher.
Save on Mining camps by just placing as close to the treeline and mine as possible and then have the cart do gold, stone and wood with very small inefficiency. Not to mention the monastary improves workrate giving the Celt, Spanish and Tueton bonus at once. Wood, Gold and Stone bonus in one. Too OP.
In case nobody mentioned, I think it's obvious enough that they took the idea from the Norse in Age of Mythology, which works as a nice reference.
They should be capturable like sheep. It would balance out some of the benefits nicely to increase the raiding risk.
Wait. Wait.
They are a building,
but
they can garrison inside another building???
I really wonder if they'll add mule carts to any of the already existing civs, or if they'll only be for the new civs.
0:55 Is that a low elo mule?
Do they take up population space? I hope not, since they are technically a building. And if not, would it be a feasible way to use them in combat as damage sponges?
Thats interesting. If they occupy no pop space, you could, in theory, produce an unlimited amount in the late game, in addition to military.
I think you highlighted the wrong civ bonus for the Celts around 2:46, but other than that, another great video as always. Recently I've been watching pro players and casters, they have unique takes around new content, but the insight you go for is off the charts. Hats off, Spirit.
If the mule cart exists in HD it would have ship armor class
Im am amazed by the ability of the devs to still come up with cool and interesting mechanics after so many years
My scorching hot take is that the mule's saddle should be the player's colour, not that dull grey.
i feel like they shouldnt be able to garrison. they should pick one- is it a unit or a mobile building??
I like that they don't just make new civs: they give them an identity, making them properly distinct and different to play to their counterparts. I really like this
Minor Mule Cart questions:
Can the Mule Cart garrison in Fortified Churches and/or Towers?
Does the Mule Cart add arrows when garrisoned, like a Villager would?
This could make higher level play a little more interesting for drush/man at arms and/or scout plays. Doesn't look as easy to quick wall your wood line with this mule.
Cart isn't buidling, nor unit, it's bunit - you can thank me for not naming green later.
I assume that if you do some fishing, gather some food on a vil, then click on a huntable, you can drop it off at the mule cart, just like you can do with fish at a dock?
I didn't think of it before but they seem to complement shallow fishing spots really well.
hmm but you cant quick wall your vills
I feel bad for the mule having to lug around all those resources all by itself.
I could totally see a new game mode where you have no resources, just vils and a cart
They should make it so you can garrison 2 vills in to make it a bit faster
I wonder if it would be worth patrolling your mule cart along a larger wood line to prevent the bumping
There's a lot of potential for these in custom campaigns.
Really like your videos Spirit! Thanks for all your work
I feel like the Georgians will be the new fast castle OP rush strat like Sicilians were.
Can the cart garrison inside churches?
Yes
Didn't cover how mule carts after architecture are essentially gold-free rams that don't cost pop-space (when it comes to absorbing archer fire)
I don't think they'll be preferentially autotargeted by units if there are enemy units around (as buildings generally aren't)
Cant we use the trick to collect the food from the berries and then click some deer in the middle of the map and that way drop the food from berries in the mule cart?
I didn't test it, but I'm 99% sure that will work. You should just have to change the villager's name to "hunter" by selecting a deer and then you should be able to use it.
So a pre-mill drush should be a interesting option with the free mule cart, or the -50 food is too much for that?
@@SpiritOfTheLaw
Worth trying out, but it sounds like a lot of micro. Let me know how it goes lol.
I think I spectated part of your game earlier tonight. Are you KR Cuber?
Yes, I got destroyed right? 11
@@SpiritOfTheLaw
Also found out that a monastery rush is so good with armenians, towers that cost no stone and can make military units, monks are already so strong now they can garrison attacking not just deffending, u get redemption and nothing can stop u, not even ligjt cav bc of the warrior monk, gonna be so hard to learn how to counter that 11.
How will they compare to rams when soaking up arrows? Will they be cost effective in any way or are rams generally cheaper?
Not really. They are a building and archers target units before buildings. Maybe they can be used when you're at max population but even then...
@@Toonrick12 Ah, chucks! I know they're considered buildings but my brain thought "you move, you unit". There's probably some creative use for them. Maybe just a wagon wall or something.
Those mule carts remind me of the Slave Miners from Red Alert 2, and i absolutely love the idea of them.
It really makes AoE2DE feel like a different game and not just a graphics and balance update. And i hope to see more cool ideas like this in the future for new civs.
For the Georgian start, is it a good idea to go straight onto boar with the mule cart when you find it to offset the -50 food start?
I imagine they don't take pop space either, even though that wasn't talked about in the vid.
Your assumption is correct. They don't take pop space.
@@SpiritOfTheLaw Thanks for the confirmation ! (also sorry if the last comment sounded aggressive, wasn't the intent)
A little thought occurred to me (a dangerous thing, indeed). What happens when a villager is carrying food from a mixed source? E.g. collected five food from berries then five food from boar in the dark age. Does it know the difference (and so the vill can only deposit five food at the Mule Cart) or does it all get turned to 'hunted' food, or is none of it counted as 'hunted'?
Which ever was the last food source counts for all its food.
Eg. A villager picks 9/10 berries, it can’t deposit at a dock. BUT if you command it on to a fish tile first. Then it can deposit all of it at the dock.
It can even be full capacity. Eg: collect 35 meat from boar, then command to pick berries. His then technically carrying 35/10 berries and will drop it all off as though it were berries.
For the mule cart, you’ll be able to deposit berries if you command the villager to hunt boar first then it can drop off at the mule cart.
If villager = hunter, then food can be dropped off. If you command villager back to be forager again then he will not be able to.
@@unusual9026 OK, thank you! That's useful to know I guess. I had forgotten about the changes to docks. Tbh, I've not played AOEII that much in the last few years so I struggle to keep track of all the changes. I'm still in the mindset that basically you have Age Of Kings, The Conquerors and Patch 1.0c. I do remember The Forgotten Empires fan made expansion and really loved that. I might still have the install files on an old laptop somewhere.
This "Mule Cart" looks awful similar to a certain Age of Mythology Norse economic unit. Glad to see AoE2 linking up with AoM hehe.
Yep, they seem to be recycling old ideas from AOM. Before you know it, they might just release a new civ with a brand new type of villager that will eliminate the need for drop off points altogether, just like the Atlantean villagers.
This will really help with Georgian TC drops. If it wasn't enough that their TC is unassailable, they can move and hide their eco anywhere for free.
Actually, do you need to _lure_ boars and _herd_ deer with a Mule Cart?
It can just walk towards them, after all.
and block the boar with it too probably
Isn't fishing a type of hunting? I guess not in this game.
So we are entering Age of Mythology territory now.
The introduction of moving buildings as a mechanic could open the floodgates
Great video. Love how detailed you get. The mule cart reminds me of what the Norse have in AoM. Very handy.
Placing the mule cart strategically well can save you some wood in feudal. Saving lumber camp gold mine cost! Transition to castle can be faster when not needing possibly one villager to wood and using that for food. Of course it depends where the gold is located.
It's one of the best long term bonuses and both civs have additional synergy with it
The only issue is raids in extended feudal or late game open maps where wood becomes an issue. You probably won't build 20 plus churches for defense though I could be wrong
The biggest disadvantage of the mule cart is that it seems somewhat fragile, with only 300 hp and 1/2 armor, it'll be very vulnerable to raiding compared to typical eco buildings, especially later in the game when units deal more damage. Fully upgraded hussars/light cav will deal 10 damage to it, so that's only 30 attacks to kill one. Even feudal age archers after fletching only need 100 shots to kill one (Which sounds like a lot, but when you have 20 archers, that's only 5 volleys).
It'll also be more difficult to wall off wood/stone/gold to defend against raids, which may be a big deal vs aggressive civs in the feudal age.
Forest nothing will never be the same
The fact Mule Carts are built faster with Treadmill Crane is strange from a real-life perspective.
I have followed your videos for almost 4 years now. I appreciates your time and effort you put in them. Thank you!
I like the cart concept. Its not new though. I AOM the Norse have the same thing and in AOE IV the Mongols have it also only a little tweaked. 😎
Basically, it's a similar but movable storage pit (AOE1)
And Age of Mythology
Feels wierd that Vils build them... what do the Vils give birth to a mule then build the cart? in AOM the TC trained them which seemed wiser.
Also them taking up no pop as I've heard sounds unbalanced - you can use rams to soak up enemy arrows, now you can spam Mule Carts with little impact to your army size and your enemy can be overwhemled by them. Unless they switch mule priority to 0. I can see why they make pop size 0 otherwise the civs are disadvantaged by drop off points plus the civ that starts with a free one will be housed from start. But maybe that civ should have a bonus of TC's providing 6 pop, or they should have the option of building normal camps as well as mule carts.
Maybe one can use it in feudal age for soak arrow fire (like a ram), if it comes to archer/skirmisher battles. If it has town watch, it could be a nice scout.
Given how many mechanics from AoE II DE's DLCs and balancing have been hemorrhaged from Age of Mythology, more really ought to give that game a go.
i really don't think the garrisoning is intentional :D they just probably copied some stuff from the villager units (to have the same speed upgrades) and forgot about the garrison.
2:42 - I think you meant Armenians rather than Georgians here.
Lovely video as ever though! Can always count on SOTL to deliver the numbers.
Imaging people using ram to destroy a cart in real life
if you start with the mule cart that doesn't make you able to not push the deer but simply use the mule cart to follow the hunt? giving so much more space to scout
*the Norse have entered the chat*
No word on the different tree priority? 9:00
Pushing in deeper, less spread. I wonder what efficiency effect that would have over an entire forest clearing...
Headcanon with the trapped villagers, they're just distracted by the mule.
The mule cart is gonna be absurd on Forest Nothing, with Armenians being even better with better wood upgrades.
I wonder if it's any good for soaking up arrows or damage in general in a fight. Isnt that something worthy to test out ?
Low prio targeting for archers sadly, decent for bodyblocking screen though, messing up melee pathing. 2 ranged armor makes it squishy to tc and castle too.