Fixing the elastic dough issue
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 23 май 2021
- Today I try to get to the bottom of an issue that’s bee bothering me for a good while. Since getting the Famag im5 in November I have constantly fought with dough that isn’t relaxed and is quite elastic. This makes it difficult so shape the pizza and do the final stretch before I cook. It’s taken some time and some help from you guys to get to the bottom of the issue, but it looks like I have finally found the root cause. Enjoy.
The application for the dough calculations is called pizzapp+ on google and iOS.
The Pizza Ramblings Facebook group. groups/82708...
This is where I get my supplies from : www.adimaria.co.uk/
Silicone lids : www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...
Dough ball tubs : www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...
Precision scales for weighing yeast : www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B... ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Plastic scraper : www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...
Steel scraper : www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...
My oven is a pizza party bollore : www.pizzapartyshop.com/en/
Dough trays
Lid www.solentplastics.co.uk/lid-...
Tray www.solentplastics.co.uk/6-9-... 
Хобби
Nice video. Can try reducing the salt a bit. Salt tightens the gluten.
Hi, now I like that idea. I often think there is just too much salt in pizza overall. Thanks I will try that too. I'll go for 2.5% rather than 3%. Cheers.
@@PizzaRamblings wow thanks for the quick reply!
I knead the dough for about 15 minutes ... just below 25 degrees!
Go with the speed when I have the salt and all the water in it to 3 - 5 speed.
I'll try to make the entire dough to 1
Yeah, I've only done it that once and is was pretty good. Yes aim for 24c. Good luck.
۴@@PizzaRamblings
I have loved watching all your videos. I am new to pizza making and have found the information so helpful. Thank you very much.
Much better!! Thanks for the shout out lol. You want the dough temp to be min 24c and max 26c. For dough up to 70% hydration, I would try the machine at speed 3-4 for 10-15mins and check temp. If the dough is elastic but not smooth, give it a 10min rest and mix for 5 seconds on max speed. Turn onto the bench and rub a small amount of olive oil on top of the dough ball and let it rest covered for another 10-15 mins. After the 15min rest, perform just a few (no more than 5-6) VERY gentle stretch and folds, then ball. You should have a nice smooth dough. If your dough is still elastic, you can try adding some olive oil to your dough 5-15ml which will lubricate the gluten strands. Also, when you add the salt affects how elastic the dough is. If you add salt at the end it’s will be more likely to pull back. Try mixing the dough in this order. Add 50% of the water and 100% salt, mix to dissolve all salt. Add half amount of flour and mix for 2 mins. Dissolve your yeast in the other half of the water. Add 50% of the remaining water and mix again for 2-3 min, then add the rest of the flour. Slowly add the remaining water (with dissolved yeast) to give the flour ample time to absorb all the water. Mix for max of 15mins. Check temp in intervals.
Haha your welcome, thanks for the detailed reply. I was really happy with how relaxed it was on its final stretch it's better than it has been for ages. there have been some great comments too that might be worth a read. You mentioned the temperature, I fridge the dough beforehand to keep the temperature down as I know the temperature raises fast. One chap said that autolysing for so long could also be some of the problem and maybe doing it in the fridge isn't right either for the temperature as you said. Interesting info. Would you have continued mixing when I stopped?
There is plenty of tips for me to experiment with now. I will create a nice list and try and tune the process 🙂. Once again thanks for your help, definitely a step in the right direction.
@steevo124 I really like the sound of your method here. I have the Famag5 single speed and have also been working to get less elasticity. How would your method be if using sourdough starter rather than yeast?
@@PizzaRamblings yes. The long refrigerated autolyse could have an affect too. Had you mix exactly like you did with the dough at room temp you may have reached the 24c. I prob would have continued mixing a bit more with some rest times when the dough was at 19c. But don’t overlook the salt factor. When you add the salt in the process is very important
@@martinbennett1638 I would add the sourdough starter after the water and flour is mixed. If u want a more relaxed dough dissolve the salt and add it early. If you want a tighter dough, don’t dissolve and add later. Dissolving the salt might leave the dough unmanageable with high hydration doughs.
I'm thinking of reducing the salt to 2.5%. I've always added ithe salt immediately after the water and not had the elastic dough when making dough by hand or with the KitchenAid. Next time I need a good few balls I'm gonna make them in small batches with something different for each batch. 🙂
Pizza looking amazing! It still retracts. I mentioned once in your other vid about the balling up stage. Notice you get a knife and chop pieces of dough, then ball up without proper technique. This effects the dough also. Try to keep dough as whole as possible and work it the least amount as possible when balling. I notice this way it never retracts! 😉
Yeah now I think I remember this point from before. I need to master balling next then, but your are right it could be that. Cheers I will look at this in future videos. Learning to ball properly will be interesting.👍
Excellent video. Really well done. I need to work on my pizza dough. Made a mess today plus it was pulling back and was too sticky on bottom
Brilliant thank you
thank you for your video, I know most people swear by kneeding by hand....but I'm lazy. I'm also trying to figure out the best formula that can mass produce the best pizzas with a mixer. ( I have 3 boys). thank you for making this video. Love your work.
I do the kneading by hand, i respect all the fermentation times, but when I have to stretch it it always difficult and always came back when stretching. What thing would i consider to solve this problem? Sorry for mi English and thanks in advance
Hi, it's a difficult one. I suggest double checking your temperature. If you room temperature then perhaps calculate your yeast amount for a few degrees less. This should mean that you add a touch more yeast to the ingredients. Or you could add a few hours on before you cook leaving the dough balled for longer. If you are cold proofing then give your dough 6 hours room temperature before stretching. Either way, it sounds like your dough isn't relaxed enough. More yeast or more time might help.
Hello sr, does pizza app work good for you? And also the autolysis you always do it at fridge to delay the fermentation? Thanks
Hi, yes the app is great, I aways get good results with it. I autolyse in the fridge to cool the mixture so that it doesn't warm up to early in the mixer when mixing. That's the main reason, you could autolyse at room temperature if you wanted. Thanks for watching 👍
You always make good pizza ❤️❤️
Thank you very much 👍
Hello 👌👌 very Nice looking pizza ❤️❤️❤️ can i ask What app are you using ?
And also you only need to do the autolys ing on the protein content weak flour . Something like W200 up to w280 anything above that protein content will be high any way and you don't need the autolysing on the flour.
where do you get your flour, i too have had to rethink mixing since getting a spiral mixer
Mostly from here www.adimaria.co.uk/ packaged very well, ice packs etc for cheese and meats. Great service.
it may not solve the issue per se but if you go against all advice you hear and use it right out of the fridge without warming it will be less elastic and more manageable in that regard. fyi, it is not just the machine because i get very elastic dough also when makign pizza and i also probably overwork it as i am used to kneading for noodles and pasta etc where you really work dough hard if by hand. i tend to work pizza dough similarly so the working of the dough is partially it prolly. i also find for better or worse, depending on preference, dough worked this way and also made like flat bread or pizza tends to be able to remain "flexible and chewy" and crispy simultaneously
@Pizza Ramblings what's the best way you tried to deal with 70% hydration dough? My dough is still sticky... Thanks bro. I enjoy your vids keep it up!
Hi and thanks 👍 once the dough is combined use the stretch and fold method also called slap and fold. Use damp fingers to do this for several mins. Cover, wait 5 mins and repeat. This will build up the strength in the dough. Eventually it will become less sticky and the dough should bounce back when you push it with one finger. It take a good 30 mins or more to build the strength up.
Wow the structure of the dough at the 9:20min of the video looks amazing! Do you think this is because it is mixed by the machine? I don't have a mixer and mix by hand and i can't get the gluten structure that elastic....unless I'm doing it wrong...
Thanks 👍 you can get that structure with lots of stretch and fold. It takes a good while with 15 min breaks between fold sessions but you can get there. The machine is very efficient at mixing which makes it very easy.
Hey Steven, I’d like to buy a Grilletta as well but there are a lot of people saying the Grilletta couldn’t hold its speed when using it with higher amounts of dough. Can you agree with that? Is the Grilletta worth with higher amounts of dough?
I've maxed out mine with 18 X 280g dough balls so just over 5kg and didn't have any issues. I think they want you to run them at 85% capacity if you can. Also it depends on the hydration. I'm usually 62% up to 80% and it's worked without any issues. It seems plenty powerful enough to me. However I've not used speed 10 on 5kg of dough.
I have the opposite problem, my dough is like a limp saggy noodle. Good looking pizza as always :)
Cheers, I'm sure it's better than a limp saggy noodle 🤣
@@PizzaRamblings lol. It like over stretches so easy and makes thin spots that burn through. I just got my koda 16 and the 1st session was so stressful. I'm only going like 62% too.
Sounds like you need to kneed more than you are. The ball should bounce back when you lightly press it in. Or you are over proofing/temperature isnt right for the amount of yeast. Are you using pizzapp for your calculations?
@@PizzaRamblings I've got the same problem as Chris and couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong. Are you saying that both over-proofing and under kneeding can result in weak dough with thin spots that tear? Also, too much yeast (I often struggle to measure the tiny amounts required) would cause over proofing as well? Thank you!
@@alphaxxiii2Hi, yes in a nutshell that's what I'm saying. Over fermented dough becomes weak and hard to shape. You need to kneed to build up the gluten which is what gives the Doug the strength. The yeast / time / temperature factors all matter. If it's too much yeast for the time your waiting then it will over ferment, same for the temperature yeast thrives in the heat which means fermentation will peak earlier than you planned for your dough, again causing over proofing. Leaving the dough for too long will again over ferment the dough.
You need to be accurate with all 3 factors. Get some jewelers scales to measure your yeast. Hope that helps.
Hey! I've been practicing room temperature dough after seeing your videos. However I'm having a problem that my room temperature dough not rising as much as cold fermented dough. Both my cold fermented dough, and room fermented dough has same formula (3% salt, 65~70% hydration) and flour. First , my cold one has 2 g IDY yeast for 300g of flour, room temp has 0.53g IDY (25C). Cold fermentation cold bulk in fridge for 24, ball 24, and bring out side to room temp. Room temp fermented dough stays bulk in 12 hours, ball around 8~12 hours. Room temperature dough still have very flat, and unsmooth surface after balling 10 hours. Is it because I used too little yeast? (room gets colder at night) or my hydration or flour is not sufficient to do 24 hours in RT?
Hi, interesting. 2g of yeast for a 300g ball sounds a hell of a lot unless I'm reading it wrong. When I do 24hr RT my room is usually around 21c during the day. However like you it drops at night. I worked out that the average was actually 18.5c taking the night in to consideration. I now base the yeast of 18c not 21c. Bulk for 18 hours and ball for 6 and cook after that. Download the pizzaapp that I use in my videos it's really handy, I also feel that you can add a touch more yeast than the app says too. The ooni app does add more yeast than the pizzapp.
Is it possible that your yeast is past it's best, I'd expect 2g to demolish 300g of dough. It only lasts a month or so. Let me know how you get on. 👍
@@PizzaRamblings 2g is when i use on cold fermented dough. For room I use 0.04% but i do feel like i need more then this
When I look at the pizzaapp 2g for 300g at CT is a lot. Maybe I'm confused are we talking 300g of flour or 300g of dough withch includes the water ?
@@PizzaRamblings yes it is a lot but works on current environment. I like to open ball when it's right before overproof.
Is it happening with any flour you use in this machine? Ie caputo and dalagionvana?
Have you considered adding rest times into the machine process?
I think because these machine give it a thorough beating, it needs more time to build up the gluten again, I suspect it literally smashed that gluten down each time you do it, also when the dough is tearing after stretching…. I would question whether it needs more rest time and then a bit more needing, maybe a few extra tests and mixes to get closer to 24 degrees if you have extra time to play with… if you start mixing slightly earlier after fridge then you have. Ore time to play with and some people use ice water to bring temp down during mix on these machines I’ve seen.
It’s definitely trial and error. Have you noticed a better or worse pizzas since using this mixer is the big question?
Thanks for the feedback I have used ice water in the past, and I always let the dough rest between mixing. That one had 10 to 15 mins rest. I have also started checking the window pane after the rest, as I have noticed that the machine with destroy any gluten if the dough is ready. I hear that getting to 24c is important, I thought that really if you could get good dough before 24c then that was there way to go. But yes it seems that any flour is elastic since I got my mixer, but it's getting better now.
I think the pizza other than the elasticity has been better since having the machine. I miss handling the dough at times but it's definitely been an improvement, especially with the high hydration stuff.
I will try some of your suggestions and once again many thanks for your help.
I ll give you another good succession. If you leave your dough longer period of time for cold fermentation what happens is the yeast inside the mixed dough eats the formed gluten and weakens the strength of the gluten where your dough doesn't stretch back when you open your dough.
Thanks for the tip. 👍
Which combination ( flour / leaven / timing ) is your favorite?
Hi, that's hard to answer. I love some of the poolish I've done with Manitoba flour. The LE5 superiore at 75 % hydration is also very nice. My go-to is 24hr room temperature 62 % upwards. The high hydration stuff is always great but is more of a challenge to handle as you would expect. Thanks for watching 👍
PR, maybe you should cut back on the autolyse period. 6 hours at room temp seems like a long period, you might have too much gluten formation, hence the very high elasticity when you are shaping the pizza. Coming from the sourdough world, a 60 minute (1 hr) autolyse is the normal recommendation. But that is just a guess. Great video and great looking pizza as always! Hot damn!
Awesome idea, that's another good point. I didn't autolyse as much before the machine either. I autolyse as the mix tends to be quicker and I autolyse in the fridge to cool the dough, otherwise it soon heats up in the mixer. I will look at reducing like you say. Many thanks.
@@PizzaRamblings Love that you sprung for the big boy machine! Definitely jealous as I am still using a Kitchenaid stand mixer. You're on a another level brother!
Haha cheers 👍👍👍
I like your channel! Maybe too much manitoba, try to do 40% manitoba, 60% 5 stagioni...but please, as neapolitan.., no chicken on pizza...😓
Thanks very much, it's not all chicken lol it was fennel sausage last time 🙂
I'm having same problem.
Is storing second dough in plastic bag makes same problem??
I usually portion dough in plasticbag
I'm look forward to your answer !
Hi, I'm not sure I understand. I don't use plastic bags for my dough so I can't answer that sorry.
@@PizzaRamblings Thank you for answering um...than I try low mixer.
Is temperture of dough when I streching is important with elastic isue? Should I take out dough beforehand to make room temperture?
Absolutely, room temperature for a good 4 hours, especially if it's been in the fridge. I tend to allow 6 hours if it's in the fridge as bulk. Less if smaller balls.
Maybe you can try 75% strong flour with a 25% weaker flour? Maybe mix a 13% protein with an 11% or 10%. Also, maybe you could ferment a little longer or increase the temp of the fermentation the last hour or so? I think your pizza's are great and they are at their best since you have used that dough machine.
Thanks for the feedback. There is so much to try and I only do pizza once a week. ( Fat enoigh lol) thanks for the great suggestions, I will add to my list.👍
Interesting video.
I knead by hand so I don’t have this problem.
I have the opposite problem once in a while when I’m lazy and don’t knead long enough.
One question though, is there any need to autolyse when you are using the machine?
Autolyse is a great technique, but I always thought the main purpose of autolyse was to reduced the need for kneading. That’s not an issue since you use the machine, so what exactly do you autolyse for?
Arguably it might affect the taste slightly, but I don’t think anyone could tell the different.
Since it just makes the process take longer, and might be the reason for the elasticity in your dough, why not skip it?
Your balling has been mentioned by others as well. I think that the way you makes the balls definitely affects the time they need to relax before they are ready.
Love your channel, mate. Keep it coming.
Hi and thanks for the feedback. I autolyse as it's a great opportunity to get the autolysing dough in the fridge. The mixer quickly brings the temperature of the dough up, the idea being that there is enough mixing time before the temperature hits 24 to 26c. I'm in the middle of trying some different mixing techniques, where I didn't need to autolyse. I know my balling technique is a bit rough around the edges and that will be something I work on improving. Any suggestions 😁
Thanks for watching 👍
@@PizzaRamblings
I normally just turn my bowl upside down and put my dough on the table. Then divide it in two halves and ball from there, making sure I keep the top part on top.
I normally make 6 pizzas, if I’m making more I normally do two separate doughs. Each half will make three balls, so it’s pretty easy to get them in roughly the same size.
I aim for 250g, but as long as I’m in the 230 to 270 range I’m ok. With experience I’m getting quite good at that, and rarely miss the
250g mark with more than 10g.
Thanks for the tip, I will have a look at that next time. Cheers.
just rest it a few minutes after stretching then it would not shrink again...☺
Hey bud, I’ve already seen many good advices from others that could solve the problem. Personally, I believe you could let the balls rest a bit longer, maybe then they won’t retract as much. Pizze looked mega as always 👍🏻
Thanks for the feedback. I can try that, but I've always left them around 6hr balled before I had the machine and I only occasionally got the elastic dough. It's something I can try and won't do any harm cheers 👍👍👍
@@PizzaRamblings yeah 6 hrs should usually be enough you’re probably right.
Maybe it is the balling process then, I’ve noticed that you don’t do it the “traditional” way some of these Italian Pizzaiolos do but then again I don’t do it as strict as them too😂😊
Yeah, that's something im thinking of working on... The balling.👍
Hi can you do a 72 hours cold ferment pizza dough? I will Like to see that🍕👍
I will add to the list. Cheers 👍
Cheers🍕👍
Hello my english is not the best i hope you understand me. I have exactly the same machine as you have. I also have the feeling that the dough doesn't pull out as well as it did before. I am satisfied with the machine and with the dough. How do you love a secret?
Hello Hugo, thanks for getting in touch. If you have the same issue then you should try mixing on speed 1 and see how you go. It was definitely better for me. Yes I love a good secret 😃 let me know how you get on with speed 1 👍
How many grams of dough per ball?
Hi, I go for 280g per ball.
Just leave it 3-4 hour extra on room temerature and it will be relaxed.
This is very true, but until having this machine I've not needed to do that. Thanks for watching 👍
I don't know how anybody can manage to let there pizza balls with a hydration above 65% rest for more than 3 hours at RT without getting the balls flatted out. After all it is no rocket science...but I am just not able to do that. After 3 hours I definitely have to reball them. Ever had that issue? Cheers
No, I've only re-balled over fermented dough. Could be the flour, not enough kneeding, too much yeast?
What is your process ?
I would say you need to ball for longer nothing to much more than that.
Interesting, more than 6 hours which is what I do normally.
I do 8 hours. Those balls In the video were holding up well for 6 hours. Maybe your a try.
Thanks, the thing is I didn't have this issue before the machine. So I'm not sure that's the issue. Something to consider though, thanks 👍
I have had the same issue after I got my eliani. I just put it down to more energy stored by the dough. 8 hours fixed it for me although our doughs are not comparable in the slightest.
Yeah you might be on to something now you have said that. I'll definitely try that out on my next batch. Thanks for letting me know, much appreciated.
Dude get a trim- look at your video to see what I am talking about. It is not a soothing look.
Thanks for the advice 👍