The P53 Enfield Rifle-Musket: The Bayonet Exercise c.1861
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Although not shooting related, the bayonet was an integral part of the soldier's weaponry and he was taught how to use it first, in a series of formal movements. These movements formed the foundation of effective use of the bayonet in close quarters.
Mate, your channel is one of the best things to come out of Canada in a good while.
Thamuze Ulfrsson Thank you very much. Glad you enjoy things here, on the channel.
Wait he is in Canada too.
Oh.
Nice!
Really great job compiling this. I find it intriguing how many differences there are compared to the US bayonet drill of 1860. As a confederate reenactor, I taught myself the US drill and became the instructor for my company. I am surprised that the British only had one parry position, where as the US had 4 different ones (not including high parries which are just about the same). Moreover, they did not use butt strikes, vaults, or lunges (personally I understand the lunges because I think they are quite useless). Any how, very interesting, keep up the great work! Maybe I will put together a US one...
+Gannon Woods Hi there. Yes the basic drill is rather simple. If one looks into some of the other treatises by Angelo and Burton, they go into much more detail and include all manner of parries and other attacks. Were they used by the army? I am not an expert on these other manuals, but they might have been used by certain groups/instructors. Over the span of the Victorian era, the bayonet exercise became much more detailed and by the time if the Lee-Metfod had evolved into a rather complicated system, much like that in the manuals by Angelo and Burton... Definitely an evolution... The army of the 1860s did practice fencing as there are entries in the List of Changes that describe fencing muskets that have spring loaded bayonets with blunt/rounded ends... Glad you enjoyed the clip! Cheers.
Well I am just wondering where my evening has gone... I started watching one of your vids then another then another.. All lovingly researched, beautifully videoed, and gratefully watched. Thank you very much,.
+Simon Nonymous Sorry about the lack of reply.... Don't know how I missed your comment. Thank you very much for your kind words.
+britishmuzzleloaders don't apologise Rob you sent me a message a few weeks ago to say thanks. And you're still my favourite channel! Peace to all. 😄
Any idiot who spotted your watch was not paying attention to the drill and should be required to run with their rifle over their head until YOU are tired. Garstin of London was making wrist watches for British Army officers as early as the 1880s
Hugh Batesel Thanks Hugh. I don't consider it a big deal, after all its the drill (in this case) that is important and the watch doesn't affect things at all. It has been mentioned in the past and I thought that it was worth making a remark about... :-) Cheers.
You're sassing people about being detail oriented? The watch does not belong. Why even wear it when everything else is pristine? It's like donning a WWI uniform and then having a tablet hanging off your belt. Either commit to the period wear, or don't. I don't care if you're doing drill in sneakers, but either do it period-correct, or don't even bother with period-correct wear at all.
What is the issue with the watch? Without it our man will not know when to break for tea.
Seriously thought the video was enjoyable, informative and appreciated.
Thank you very much!
You have produced truly excellent videos bringing history to life.
Many thanks.
Graham Gibbs Thank you for your kind words. Very happy that you have enjoyed them! Cheers.
Enjoyed the video very much. Will pass on to my stepfather. He is a Canadian and a veteran of the Canadian army. He will love it to be sure.
Thanks for putting this out.
Cheers!
A very fearsome and effective weapon at close range. An excellent video and good use of the split screen. As regards the watch, I wouldn't have noticed if you hadn't of said anything, besides a good soldier must make use of everything at his disposal to his advantage, including time travel.
Richard Krcmar Thanks for that. I'll leave the flux capacitor for another video, then.... :-)
Very good video! As a fellow British Infantryman reenactor, I appreciate you taking time to make a video like this for educational purposes. While I reenact a British light Infantryman from 1776, the information on the socket bayonet is very well researched and I explain a similar story of the evolution of the bayonet to people who come to see me and my fellow soldiers in the field. Cheers, and continue making great videos!
Very happy that you found the video of interest. I wouldn't go so far to say that I am a re-enactor though. I like to think the Channel showcases Historical Shooting. Close but not quite the same. Cheers!
Another amazing video... It's almost like being transported back in time... well done...
+Mac Anix Very glad you enjoyed it! Cheers.
i look forward to watching your videos after work to decompress and lift my spirts . great channel
What a kind compliment. Thank you.
Nice video detailing historic use of the Bayonet. Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Words escape me for how excellent your videos are: the historical research, the dress, the drills. I recommend anyone who appreciates what Rob does to support him on patreon to enable him to continue with this high quality work (BTW: I am not in any way associated with britishmuzzleloaders - just a fan of this excellent channel!)
Very kind of you to say so, Peter. Thank you.
My late father (a bit mad, no fool, and ex-national service) insisted that the final thrust (not Point or 2) should be with the right foot to the fore.
Orde Wingate (also mad, but no fool) chided the Zionist SNS that..
"you do not even know the elementary use of bayonets when attacking *** Arabs: how can you put your left foot in front?".
If you think of a (orthodox) boxer landing a straight right, this appears to make sense.
Have you any opinion? Thx
I can say that the Exercise in the Victorian era had no such right foot forward technique. I'd have to go into more depth with 20th Century manuals to see if it did have some use.
I've been watching your videos for a while now, even though this is from 2015, My friends and I learn quite a lot!
The production values may have crept up to as of late, but the info here is still as good as it would be today.... Glad you enjoyed it!
ah yes the birth of my favorite tool.
We all know what your favourite "tool" is
Excellent video for us who do US Civil War and have Enfields. Your watch wasn't a distraction for me.
Haha! Cheers!
Outstanding video, many thanks for sharing this historic skill.
You are most welcome! Cheers.
As you say they would not call out the numbers in battle but.... in "Zulu" when C.S. Bourne faces off against a Zulu who has jumped over the barricade, you can see the confidence in his attitude & bayonet handling. The point perhaps of the exercises? When you consider that at Rorke's Drift they were probably still using the rebushed P53 bayonet as well, this is one excellent video.
Peter Martini Haha,...... You mean when Nigel Green faced off against the Zulu actor after the eighteenth take of him jumping over the mealie bags.... :-).... The real CSgt Bourne would have had proper equipment on and a bushed '58 sword fixed to his rifle.... and been about half Green's age.... All in good fun, my friend. I completely understand what you are getting at... Cheers.
Again, I really like the presentation and structure of your videos. Interestingly I read the other day that the average range of engagement with rifles in the American Civil War was 120 yards, much less than the 300-400 yard estimations I have usually heard. The reason I have heard, is that with the lack of shooting practice, crowding in the ranks, smoke, and being under enemy gun fire, meant that soldiers profited little from the developments in accuracy. At 80 yards the Springfield Model 1842 only throws the bullet off by about 6 inches or so from the rifles shot, and giving the diabolical accuracy in combat due to the aforementioned reasons, it is hard to see how a 12 inch variance is going to make a difference.
Thanks for your kind words. Glad you enjoy the content! I am not an expert on the ACW but your figures sound about right. I think that it has mainly to do with the lack of marksmanship training that the ranges got so close. Interestingly, there are many accounts in the Indian Mutiny of the range of the Enfield being a decisive factor in some of the engagements there. Have you read "The Rifled Musket in Civil War Combat: Reality and Myth"....? Great book and it talks about many of these types of points. Cheers.
Great video as normal! It's great to see your obviously copious research put into a video we can all enjoy.
MasterOfNothing83 Glad you enjoyed it. Cheers.
Another top job. And in marching order - very well done. You have produced a true reference work and I can only congratulate you again on your dedication. There are not many who have mastered these skills to your level.
Dave Simmonds
Mangatawhiri Rifle Volunteers.
New Zealand
+Naomi Simmonds Thanks Dave. I appreciate the sentiments greatly.
Never underestimate the power of a bayonet, it can be 5he life saver of the soldier!
Drill,drill,drill by the numbers! That's the way it's been done for centuries. The moves become automatic and need no fore thought before execution. Great video precision moves!
Cheers!
Well done, as always.
pdalko Thank you.
Well done once again and if you hadn't mentioned the watch I would have either......!
Duncan Andrews Thanks Duncan. I realize that it doesn't impact the drill, per se... Some have made comments about it, that's all. Glad you enjoyed it. Cheers
The British Army was dreaded when it came to close quarters combat, because of its expertise in the use of good English steel. Our drills now are so simplified as to be almost farcical in comparison.
In a side note I actually have the knife my Grandfather bought in England prior to D-Day, made in Sheffield. He carried it, my Father carried it in Vietnam, and I carried it for 25 years Soldiering. The grips have been replaced, but it's still sharp, and in serviceable condition. Good English steel never lets you down.
I think that you will find that armies of the era, tended to have the same take on bayonet training...
This video creates - for me - a funny circle of technology and learning! I have recently become interested in Jūkendō (銃剣道) , the Japanese martial art of bayonet fighting and unsurprisingly this has led me to read into the history of the bayonet itself. It's rather a unique situation when I am studying a Japanese martial art, but one that has it's origins in the West and not the East! Fantastic video, thank you.
Cheers! There are more bayonet drill videos in the "Drill" playlist too!
Thanks for the video learning lots of information from you. Cheers
Oatmeal Savage You are welcome. Glad there was something of interest. Cheers.
We were still doing bayonet drills in boot camp in 2003. I don't know if they are still though.
Went to Army basic in 2007 and we were the first class to not have it...I was never issued a bayonet but I still bought a phobis III m9 bayonet and brought it with me on deployment....Afghanis aren’t too scared of rifles but if you put a knife on the end they become terrified lol
Excellent demonstration, thanks. Your apology for the watch was more of a distraction than the watch itself. No worries mate, thanks again!
Cheers! More bayonet exercise on the Channel if you are interested.
Astonishing video and techniques !!
Cheers!
Did British bayonet exercises ( in general) - also include drills in how to strike an opponent with i.e the Butt of the rifle??
+paul weston Not the drills found in the Infantry manuals of the time.. Although I haven't gad a chance to peruse the various treatises by Angelo and Burton, but, as there were more advanced manuals, they might have... These were fencing manuals and not necessarily military manuals.
superb video very informative
Glad you enjoyed it, thanks.
I'm a proud Pikeman and Halberdier through and through but these exercises are still extremely interesting.
And damn useful to know!
Many of these movements are in direct descent from those used in the earlier era, indeed.
Great informative videos!
Thanks!
Great video Rob, my favourite part of drill is the bayonet. Keep up the good work
Greg King Thanks Greg. Things don't change much with the intro of the Martini, I am learning... I probably still will do one with that rifle just for sake of "completeness"... Cheers.
Give em the bayonet
Thank you for this wonderfully instructive video. I am doing research for an upcoming video and you were a great help.
Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
It's cool to see the similarities between this and quarterstaff use from a couple centuries earlier, minus the strikes of course. I'm always amazed at the consistency of principles if not specific techniques and weapons across the history of British martial arts.
I am no expert in the HEMA side of things. The "art" comes after this kind of learning... These basic moments get evolved into actual fencing...
britishmuzzleloaders Generally military drills are simplified and regimented versions of what you call the art. We see this with the transition from backsword/broadsword to military sabre and naval cutlass too, for example so it's kind of the reverse.
Another splendid video, I took the liberty to share this one at the Historical European Martial Art (HEMA) Alliance facebook group, primarily for unarmed combat and the diversity of European fencing systems, where the bayonets fits in the latter. You may want to have a look? .
Keep up the good work, and best wishes from Norway. :- )
PS, may I enquire as to where you got your checkered hat? It is a most excellent piece of headgear.
JensMHA Hi there. Thank you for the share! It's very much a "basic technique" kind of video. But one has to start somewhere.... Fencing is something that would be very interesting with a weapon of this era. The feather bonnet is something that I have had for many years and came from a friend. Cheers.
+JensMHA Thanks for the link, I will check it out! Ahhh, the Kilmarnock.... It's from "Sally Pointer" in Wales... If you are interested just google her and you'll get there in a jiff.... Great service and product. Cheers.
Jolly simple movement but deadly. Taking into the historical account that the capability of reloading ammunition that were very slow in the early 1800s, so it can be concluded that this moves was among the tactics which successful used in defeating many martial art warriors in the east.
Bayonet fighting was practiced lots but actually quite rare in reality.
Great Video!
Cheers.
Thank you so much for such great content.
From Kyiv Ukraine.
You are most welcome.
Marvelous video and demonstration. Very informative and interesting.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Excellent video! Thank you for sharing.
You are most welcome!
Danke für die schönen Videos
Mit freundlichen Grüßen Hugo
Hugo Erdtmann I'm afraid that I don't speak German but I see "Danke" and so I think I should say "Bitte"..... or maybe something like this???? "Ich danke Ihnen für Ihre freundlichen Kompliment" :-)
only 39k subs -wow youtube had its priorities wrong, Great channel
Very kind sentiment.. Thank you. Tell your friends!
Well done! As always.
The Cosmoline Crate Thank you very much. Maybe a target to stick, next time....
Has its similarities with the riot control stances I'm learning in the army, not that we would use rifles with bayonets against a riot in 2015, but it is still part of the training. I'm from Brazil by the way...
***** Just saw a clip from Korea on riot control.. Search for "roman tactics riot police korea" here on YT and I am sure that you will get to it... Very interesting. Cheers.
Wow, thats remarkable, seems to be very effective...and they do it with and outstanding perfection...
***** I see the use, but I don't see modern society accepting it instead of shield & baton... hahahah
Been a student of the bayonet from both a military use and a historical martial arts background since the late 1980s for the modern techniques and the early 2000s for the historical ones. I am not sure if I have this particular manual in my library or not but a lot of the moves in the Victorian Era manuals are very similar. it was real nice seeing the moves performed in full kit with the commands. For the record the watch didn't bother me. I was more interested in seeing the various moves actually performed. Will be watching this video several times. Keep up the good work !!!!
winkleried Thanks for the kind words and I am glad that you found the clip interesting. The manual is available online.. Just google "1861 Field Exercise and Evolutions of Infantry"... It is free. Cheers.
Thanks, I checked and no I don't have this particular manual, But I will Shortly :)
The video reminds my of the depiction of Colour SGT Bourne schooling his opponent on the proper use of the bayonet vs. the spear in the movie Zulu.
+Keith Robertson AH yes... Nigel's moment... I rather suspect that the real CSgt Bourne was a bit past "bayonets by numbers"!.... :-) ....
+britishmuzzleloaders True, the CSGT was using his bayonet "at speed." However, I think of "by the numbers" as a form of kata. I understand many disciplines hold to "Master your katas first".
Keith Robertsson Great way of putting it!.. Exactly.
+britishmuzzleloaders To me, the Zulu was surpised Bourne was good with a "spear." The scene was a life and death "master's class." Bourne had been reading his Burton and not just the "Thousand and One Nights"
Keith Robertsson While good drama, personally, I wouldn't put Nigel Green's bayonet fighting in the "Master Class"... His "Guard" position is good, but to think that his "point" could have been that effective, without essentially any parry or use of the shield on the part of his adversary, is a bit Hollywood, methinks... Great "Burton" reference though!.. Cheers.
good video greetings from spain
+ADRIAN GONZALEZ Thanks!
que viva España, españa tambien fue muy fuerte en esos tiempos, bueno que tengas un buen dia desde Los estados unidos de Norte America
he is wearing the mackenzie tartan.. i was a seaforth highlander my self and wore the same terten with our #1 blues tunic.... our drill was a allot different. the cap badge looks like the can scots... am i rite?
+sgt. Nickel Yes it is MacKenzie. The cap badge is that of the 78th Highlanders.
Interesting video, shame about the watch.. Really though I wouldn't have noticed if you didn't point it out. Great channel.
The-Lord-Laing Glad you found it interesting. Cheers.
I noticed that fencing foot work is incorporated into the drill. Is this a result of of period fencing masters developing the movements or something learned from experience?
Well, it's in the manual so there was somebody familiar with basic footwork. :-) .. this kind of thing had been around for ever so I'd say very much part of the general military experience.
More on bayonet please, sooner or later :D It would be great if you make a video on the later bayonets as well, on rifles perhaps
I mean the repeating rifles
Prarp Vadanathorn My intent is to do a bayonet video for each of the rifles I have.... It'll take time but that's the plan....
Nice! Really informative
CactusAvenue Glad you liked it. Cheers.
The Shorten Arms stance...it looks like the stance the royal marines and EIC soldiers used in the Pirates of the Caribbean. Is it just a coincidence or is that the actual stance?
+Arthurian Knight Well, I can say that the position as shown in this clip are the "actual stance" Shorten Arms had been around as a fighting position for a long time by the time the Enfield came around... The concept of the position is fairly straight forward... You are armed with a great long rifle with bayonet... your opponent is able to get in close to you.... you must bring the point back far enough to get it into a poison where it can be used.. So you bring the weapon back to achieve this.
Can't comment about the movie, though, as I don't know what point in it you are referring to. Cheers.
Very good video. If you ever get the chance watch Peter Sellers in the movie The Party. In the first part of the movie he portrays an actor filming a period India/British war movie. Look for the scene of him wearing a watch. You’ll appreciate how your watch may offend the uptight picky period folks.
Indeed!
Always good to see a MacKenzie.
You seem to have missed out the Ring Bayonet, in the development of bayonets, which came between the Plug and the Socket version. Charles 1st brought 1,000 "repaired" bayonets (plug) back with him from exile in 1660, so they were in use before that.The original plug bayonet was developed by the people of Bayonne in SW France for Boar Hunting, a sort of boar spear.
OK, thanks.
I hunt deer with a Martini-Henry, is that a bad thing?
+Radioactivesquirrel2 Why would it be?
+Radioactivesquirrel2
Ooo, if I ever get into hunting, and get myself a Baker Rifle, I'm DEFINITELY gonna kick it like it's the early 1800s. After lengthy practice at the range first of course. For now I hope to get myself a moose with one of my Lee Enfields (as my family in Newfoundland has been doing for generations), and if I can stomach seeing the process of gutting/quartering the beast, then I hope to try for a deer with either Kar98k or SKS.
If all still goes well, then I'll move up to bear with either SVT-40 or M91/30, and as season after season goes by, I'll use different WWI/WWII rifles to hunt. Maybe even some day take my 1896 No.1 Lee Enfield out for a go. As long as the deed is done in one shot and there's not excessive suffering (preferably none at all if possible), then if it's legal to use, why not use it? I specify legal because I've heard of some people taking down a deer with .22lr, one shot. Even if that's possible, I think it's dangerous and inconsiderate.
Higher chance of the animal only being wounded, running off, likely getting an infection, and so slowly die in the wild. The meat wouldn't be wasted I'm sure, since scavengers will no doubt see to using the carcass, but still, doesn't seem sportsmanlike to hunt a game that size with a cartridge so small. Even 7.62x39 might be considered underpowered for deer by some, but since it's not far off from .30-30, I don't see it being a problem. Love my SKS, though the thought of going out with a CZ-858, hunting with a firearm that looks so similar to the AK?... I'm more of a traditionalist when it comes to firearms, but trotting around in the woods with an assault rifle-looking firearm, it's an interesting thought to entertain.
Still important to remember though that hunting is a serious business. I just like the thought of using firearms made decades or even over a century ago to put food on the table. Ones made by individuals who are retired or passed on. Consider my 1896 MLE for instance! Possibly used in the Second Boer War, possibly by one of the many Canadians who volunteered to go as I learned in College, let's say they had a new hire in the plant when the rifle was made. Perhaps 17 years old. That puts him at 1879... wasn't that when the famous film Zulu is based? Anyways, that's 137 years ago. Needless to say, though this hypothetical worker was just a kid when he worked on the rifle, he's sadly passed on long ago. How many people have fought with this rifle? How many have hunted with it? How many meals have been enjoyed thanks to it? Well considering its amazing condition, I definitely believe it to have many meals to offer yet, and if I do my part in maintaining it, future generations may come to appreciate its history and enjoy its ability to be used in hunting after me.
Using a Martini-Henry? That's simply going one or two more steps back into history, and provided it's in good working order, you've made sure you're a good shot with it, and it's cleaned and cared for after firing, I see no reason not to use it. To show that the old Victorian British girl still has life in her. Just don't you dare sporterize it, and take care not to drop it or mar up the stock any more than it might already be from the use it's gotten over the 128+ years it's been around (production stopped in 1887-1888 I wager when the Lee Metford came about), then I say "Have at it, old boy!"
Now if we were talking about some kind of Baker Rifle that was original, potentially made 200+ years ago... if any of those are still around and in working order at that... I think I'd be more inclined to say leave it on the wall, or in a safe, and buy a reproduction to hunt with. Though in the end if you did have a couple horse shoes up your arse and somehow, miraculously, was touched by some otherworldly being and lucked your way into owning a Napoleonic or pre-American Civil War flintlock rifle, it'd be yours to use as you see fit. If it were mine though, I would baby it like nothing I'd ever owned, in fact would probably see to donating it to a museum, provided they didn't disable it. The days of Napoleon... that was... quite a few moons ago.
Commander Chakotey is that you narrating?
+Aleksandar Tadic I think its Robert Beltran
Well worth seeing.
Cheers.
Pikes weren't entirely consigned to history after the invention of the socket bayonet. In the American Civil War the Confederate Army was authorized to recruit twenty regiments of pikemen, while infantry regiments would be enlarged to include two companies of pikemen. Robert E. Lee and "Stonewall" Jackson supported the ludicrous idea for some reason. The pikes were made, but never issued. Supposedly however a few soldiers carried them into the Battle of Shiloh in 1862.
Francis Borek While I would say my statement is 99% accurate, there are always exceptions. Yours is a very interesting one that had not heard of before.... Perhaps a more pertinent one might be the continued use of halberds and spontoons, as carried by officers and Sgts ,well into the 1800s....
I always did find that funny that a lot of European armies issued pikes to NCO's and officers. Then I realised it was to keep their own men in line instead of attacking the enemy.
Yeah most soldiers in the Civil War used their bayonets to hold meat over campfires or to hole candles at night.
***** Where did you get this from? Is this an American reference? In British and Empire service, the "Staff" Sergeant had nothing to do with what he carried. In fact, staff sergeants weren't typically involved in fighting at all.... They were on the battalion "Staff" (or HQ) rather than in a company... Hence, "Staff Sergeant" Orderly room-sergeants, armourer-sergeants, pioneer-sergeants, the Drum Major... etc.... were all Staff Sergeants... Besides, aligning rifle muzzles is completely counter intuitive.. A rifle is intended to be aimed... How can you aim if someone is moving your weapon around so it is "level"..... The defending aspect is suspect to... How can one man, defend 20 or 30 (the ratio of Sgts to men in a company).... No, Staff Sergeants were not named for a "staff" or anything that they carried or used... Sorry. Now, Sergeants in companies, carried pikes (spontoons) until the 1820s or 30s... 8 footers that had a broad flat head with a cross piece to prevent over penetration... www.militaryheritage.com/pike.htm. Cheers.
Very cool man 👍👍
Cheers!
Great video.
MayI suggest to give the man a proper wooden drum canteen. I suspect that the rolled greatcoat is not grey wool British issue, but ACW Federal issue.
You may also want to check if the sporran is of the correct pattern for a 78th (Seaforth's) Highlander of that time.
All valid points, of course. Valid for a sort of living history presentation, I suppose. Many of the bits I have are "good enough" and not authentic, as you have noticed. That said, I am an Historical Shooter and as such these things need be only that. It might surprise you that the "greatcoat" is in fact a mat for shooting, good of you to spy the colour difference, and only replicates the size and shape of a rolled greatcoat. The blue is what was at the fabric store... I think that if you check images of the 78th Highlanders from the late 1860s back, the sporran is about right.... They changed to a two point version while they were in Canada in '68/69-ish. Thanks for the kind words. Cheers.
I'm curious if the first order of battle would be to drop packs similar to marching order / fighting order today. Bayonet fighting with a pack on seems bizarre today
In this era, the 1860s (essentially), knoasacks were a feature of temperate climes... home service, Dominon Service.... but in India knapsacks (and later valises) weren't carried due to the overwhelming presence of hired labour to move the baggage.. The civilian accompaniment of the Army in India was astounding in numbers..
ce n'est pas la peine de mettre un si beau costume d'époque si c'est pour garder sa montre en plastique des années 80 :)
+HOMEGA10 I suppose so,.... but, is this video about the uniform or the bayonet drills?... :-)
Very interesting to see the drill from up north! Have you dabbled in the U.S. and C.S. manuals from the era for a comparison? I've been studying and drilling by several manuals and find them similar to the manual you presented here.
+Henry B Hi there. No, I haven't ventured into the American manuals, but I have seen some engravings and, as you say, they look quite similar... I think most armies were on the same page when it came to the use of and training in, the bayonet. Simple movements, by numbers, seem to be the way it was done... Good luck with your studies on the subject! Cheers.
The shorten arms reminds me of paintings from the Seven Years War, where you see a guy drawing his musket back like that, prior to thrusting at a target (and a low guard like attack is also often depicted when showing soldiers finishing off a guy on the ground). Clearly bayonet use when in melee changed surprisingly little.
EDIT: here is a depiction of both in use in a contemporary painting, of the battle of Hochkirch (1758). One guy is using the low guard to kill a Prussian lying on the ground outside a brown tent. His fellow Austrian to his left is going after a guy using the shorten arms position. The painting was by a man whose job it was to depict military practice, so its reasonably accurate:
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/La_Pegna_%C3%9Cberfall_bei_Hochkirch.jpg
The interesting thing though is that the basic guard was completely different: the soldiers I usually see pulling these off were Prussians and Austrians from the 1750's--just like the example above, and their manuals describe a maneuver which has the soldier holds the musket straight forward at the low chest level, with the musket resting on the man's left elbow (his hand was between the "swell" and lock of the musket), and his right hand gripping the stock behind the lock.
Problem is, they don't talk about how to fight with the bayonet in these manuals: this is a topic I've been trying to figure out. At least this video shows one way it could have been done. Would it be OK, if I were to use the video to create animations for my mod? It's way more lifelike than what I currently have.
The most detailed description I found was William Windham's treatise for training the Norfolk Militia (1759), and it gives a position kind of like a hybrid of the 1st and 2nd positions (I'd say it's closer to the second one). He argued that it was easier to brace with, and was better for melee with other infantry. He disparages the standard method used by the British army back then (basically holding the musket like a pike), memorably stating that the user of this method could well knock himself over trying to thrust with the bayonet...but again, no mention of specific moves :(
+Albukhshi Great post! Yes you may use this for your (game?) mod... are you making money from it? What game is it for? I know that the "pike-like use" of the bayonet was the way it was in the 1700s.. The man actually gripped the but plate with the right hand and held the piece at shoulder level.
lambtons.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/baillie53.jpg
www.pinterest.com/pin/402790760402183883/
Here is a painting of Tel -El-Kebir with both the low and high guard in evidence.
www.irishregimentsandhistory.webeden.co.uk/communities/1/004/007/903/211/images/4534209113.jpg
As for actually fighting with the bayonet, these were all positions and movements that were intended to be used while standing in ranks, as opposed to "fencing" at an individual level. The direction given to Cumberland's men at Culloden was that they were not to engage the man in front of them, but rather the man on their right, as this would allow for the bayonet to engage the open (left) side of the highlander that was not protected by his targe. Obviously, this is the consummate "team" evolution... as every man must act accordingly or else the system fails... (in theory, anyway)..
Thanks for the swift reply! I am most grateful for your permission.
To answer your questions:
-it's indeed a game modification--specifically of Alexander total war. It's a total conversion mod set in the mid 18th century,.
-being a modification, I don't make money for doing this. All work is volunteer based (and it helps that generally, there is only one guy on the team--myself)
Here's the link to the download page:
www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?219506-the-Seven-Years-War-mod-%28originally-asking-for-permission-%29/page14
(If you want to run it, instructions for running are afterwards: I confess I'm not very organized)
If there is no further issue, I'll take the footage and use it to create a rotoscope: this will ten be used to create the animations needed.
Anyways, back to the fun part:
-yep--that's the "pike" style which was described in the manual exercise of 1757, and which Windham criticized (by this time, it was largely unique to the British). I'm still trying to figure out the moves for this one--aside from the obvious thrusts forward and to the sides (as per Culloden), as it seems hard to transition from this to some of the moves you see in the paintings (and in the video)--even in formation it doesn't come across trying it as particularly practical.
Would it be possible to explore this in a future video?
EDIT: well, I've finally stumbled on it--allbeit from 1805: www.thortrains.com/getright/drillbaypom1805.htm
-I'm surprised I forgot this, but here is a contemporary engraving of the stance the Prussians (and Austrians) used, which I described in an earlier post, from which they have done all the moves in the painting from: www.kronoskaf.com/syw/images/3/39/Prussian_Infantry_Drill_Bayonet_3.jpg
At least this one is easier now :D
Imagine a berry picker walking in to this in in the middle of the forest. Probably think they gone back in time, until they see the watch ;)
+och307 What watch?
The Black Watch...... (Pun intended)
och307 Bwahahahahaha..... THAT,.... was excellent...
Awesome!
Thanks!
Question did the 1853 Enfield Rifle vs the Enfield used in the American Civil War were very Similar. Ours were in .58 cal. and is a very good shooting weapon.
They are the same weapon... I think that research will show that both 24 and 25 gauge Enfields were procured by the US/CS. Difference in bore diameter, that's all....
@@britishmuzzleloaders thank you very much. Again enjoyed your video.
And may I be so bold as to ask what brave 'ighland regiment you might represent (never mind the watch!). Pardon me but I canna make out what tarten you're wearing!
+macadavy This is representative of the the 78th Highlanders c 1861. MacKenzie tartan.
All the more reason to develop the best marksmanship to preclude defense use of the bayonet.
It would be a bit easier, yes.
Remember timing of count_2_3 in carrying out movement of order or drill. Also be wary of the yataghan as due to the steel scandal they can bend like bananas when thrust against hay filled sacks.
"1, 2,3, 1" Does not feature in any period manual. That said, the prescribed pause is 1 beat of slow time (75 PPM).
was there any difference between this method and, say, the ones used by the british during the American Revolution?
I am not familiar with the Exercise of the 1770s and 80s... Of course this is "bayonets by numbers" to teach basic movements. I know that the exercise from the 1740s etc was very much more "pike-like" with movements like "push your bayonet" and the like...
Interesting vid. I was thinking about setting up a bayonet pell for some exercise. One question. In the American 1860's drill the command was fix bayonet. Was the British command fix bayonet(s)? Thank you.
Yes, the command was "Fix - Bayonets" There were movements on both words... see the "Manual Exercise" videos on the Enfield for more.
Many thanks!
Question: Is that Richard F. Burton of the Bombay Army who wrote the book on bayonet fighting the same as the Sir Richard Francis Burton who was the famous Victorian explorer? I wouldn't put it past him. Also, can you do something similar with the Pre-World War One British Army?
Don't know. The SMLE will get it's share of "drills" videos, yes.
Don't bother Apologizing for including a watch in your visuals. It's not like we're paying you for your video. Anyways, great video. Bayonets by the way I believe are named after the Bayonne area of south France.
Regardless, I try not to include such things... Cheers!
A fellah could get 'imself hurt with one of them pointy things.
I know it's not what you usually do, but I have a WWI Enfield no3 mk1 and sword bayonet, and I've not been able to find much information on drills for that combination, could you assist me? maybe do a video on how bayonet training would have been done before the great war?
Dreadnought I am away from my references right now but let me take a look and see what I have... From looking at manuals from the late 1890s, things are quite similar in basic movements. There seems to be much more focus on the "fencing" aspect of things rather than the pedantic movements shown here.. Don't get me wrong, they are still part of the learning curve but as you read on, there is much more instruction on dynamic use of the weapon... I'll get back to you... Cheers.
britishmuzzleloaders thank you for looking into it, I'd appreciate whatever you turn up
Dreadnought So, I have a copy of "Infantry Training 1914 (4 company organization)" and Appendix 1 is Bayonet Fighting... Para 6 of the the Introduction has an interesting point... "Bayonet Fighting should never be taught as a parade exercise." There are eight lessons that cover topics such as the point, parrying, shorten arms, and combination parry and attacks. The final lesson is "the assault" (man to man)... It is much too long winded to replicate here, but copies are available on amazon and such for a very reasonable rate. It might be available online too....try here www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/manual-infantrytraining.htm.... In any regard, the "use of the bayonet on the eve of the Great War", as requested. Cheers.
PS In the back there is a recruit syllabus, broken down by fortnight (2 weeks) blocks... In the last two there is mention of 5 hours in each fortnight for bayonet fighting....
I don't mind the watch in the reenactments. What watch do you wear?
How were socket bayonets held in place before those locking latches (eg, on a Brown Bess)? Was it just the front sight keeping it from sliding off?
There were various latches used in the 30's and 40's. Lovell's as an example. Before that, they didn't have any latch, just the dog-leg channel.
Great video mate,I just want to ask about how you chose which uniform to wear in your vids?
Maximilian Tay Hi there... Usually, I try to use something that is appropriate to the era of the weapon. Here, the kit is "correct" for the early '60s. It's not 100% mind you... the knapsack is an earlier variant (although roughly similar) and the water bottle is, of course, the wrong pattern, although similar to a pattern from the '90's... For the Martini clips, something from the '70s or '80s... P71 Valise and helmets figure prominently... I hope that wearing everything adds something to the experience... Cheers.
Where can I purchase a sling for an 1853 Enfield?
Graham the Leather Guy in North America, or Shedtime Leather in the UK.
Strange how the back foot move first when advancing, I usually assumed that it was more like fencing where the front foot move first to keep the two feet apart for stability. Any Ideas on why?
Prarp Vadanathorn Not particularly... There are two versions of the "advance". One with the front foot moving first and the other with the back foot moving first... At this time there doesn't seem to be a "lunge" as in fencing with the body reaching forward to the extreme in conjunction with a step with the front foot.... I don't have my references with me at the moment, but that might come in with later bayonet drill.... 1890s (+)... Cheers.
could you potentially make a series of videos using a Brown Bess Napoleonic musket, and then you could use your highlander costume so as to not need a new uniform? just as a viewer that would be a very entertaining thing to see.
+Jeremy Whitman Kinghorn The Brown Bess is waiting in the wings.... There will be a complete series on that sometime in the future. As for the kit to go with it, Napoleonic highland uniform is quite different from that of the mid-Victorian era, and I would have a hard time presenting the BB in that way... I am all for it but I do have a budget ..... (wish I didn't though).Who knows, if I come across a coatee, some feathers for my Kilmarnock, and some black gaiters, then I will do it for sure... Thanks for your enthusiasm! Cheers.
No worries about the watch. It was after all a "Black watch" :)
He who puns... :-)
Holy shit. It's fencing. But with a rifle!
And only one man.... :-)
Where can I get a manual
Google 1859 Field Exercise and Evolutions of Infantry
I wonder if this is where the expression of doing things "by the numbers" comes from.
+FreedomFiend Everything in the Army is learned "by numbers".... :-)... Yes, this (not just the bayonet exercise, but all physical skills) is the origin of the phrase.
britishmuzzleloaders
Ugh. I'm a Navy Brat, I should have known this a long time ago. It does explain why the phrase always seemed so much more common than most others, though.
Mr britishmuzzleloaders. I'm an amateur of the British military culture . Could you tell me the name of march pieces during 9'24" to 9'49" ? I want to know it. Thank you very much.
I'm afraid I didn't write it down... and I can't remember the name...
Great video as always. Speaking of bayonets I was firing my P53 Enfield this past weekend with the bayonet fixed and the front sight broke off! Miraculously managed to recover it from the grass. Any recommendations on repair? Thanks.
***** Glad you enjoyed it... Repair... It depends on what you are going to do with it... If you are going to shoot with the bayonet again, then the historical solution would be to braze it back on... If not then simple soft solder will be more than sufficient. I haven't brazed since high school so I'd take it to a shop, myself. Soldering is a piece of cake. Tin the front sight and set it at the right spot then heat 'till the solder floats.... Either way, you'll have to clean up the area and get it down to new metal if you want things to stick.. (fluxing of course) After, touch up any areas with a good cold blue... It'll go a ways in hiding any scratches..
britishmuzzleloaders K. Thanks for the tips. Got a friend who is good at soldering, will enlist his help and hope for the best!
Wow, no butt strikes of any kind? I was trained to use the SLR and bayonet, and every inch of it was used as a weapon.
No... not part of the basic Bayonet Exercise.
Black Watch!
Not it this video.... :-)
So at the end of the video u said that they wouldn't use numbers in battle. That whole video I was wondering "is there an officer yelling 'two' and 'high guard' in the midst of battle?" I'm assuming the answer is no.
Of course not... It's a standard military instructional technique... "by numbers".... in the field, you might have heard, "CHARGE BAYONETS" or even "GUARD"...... but certainly not "ONE" or "TWO"...
Are you able to provide the reference for these bayonet drills? What differences were there from the Napoleonic period?
+D Fraser '61 Field Exercise and Evolutions of Infantry.... It's mentioned here (03:10). I haven't yet delved into the Napoleonic version, but I have my suspicions that it is not materially different.
Yet, it wouldn't be until the mid-20th century for the versatility of the bayonet to be truly realized - by the Japanese army, mounting it on everything from fixed machine guns to fighter-aircraft.
It is the paradox of the bayonet... As time went on, there was increased training (speaking of the Victorian era) as the 19th century went on just as the importance of it was decreasing...
I am not familiar with any reference in any 19th century works as to what Paul is referring to. The "butt stroke" may well be a 20th century creation.