This is probably the best Bitcoin conversation on the planet right now. Touches every level, every argument and every nuance without unnecessary demonizing, shouting and bias. Bravo!
I'm quite disappointed that neither Pomp nor Dave understands what they are talking about wrt compute power and PoW. PoW is needed TO DISTRIBUTE COINS. The compute power available is directly related to the inflation value. This can't be compared to a centralized system. There is no intrinsic solution to distributing money for a centralied system. Also the "compute power" should be measured in global power usage. Global power usage can fall quite a lot even with increasing "compute power" in the network because of new technology. This WILL happen when the bitcoin price increase is below 20% y/y. This is pure math. Bitcoin isn't "inefficient" because of all of the compute power in the network. That compute power is a market where for every block, new bitcoins are auctioned off. Without that auction, the compute power would be a fraction of what it is, and thus this compute power is in no way needed to secure the network!
That's because they're both independent and critical thinkers. If one of them was a religious or political fanatic, the conversation wouldn't be so polite and wouldn't even make sense.
This is a text book examble of how we should discuss our concerns. Both Pomp and Dave are very intelligent, thoughtful and respectful commentators capable of respecting each others views. This is a video worth referencing to from time to time. Bravo Dave & Pomp...and thanks for your insights.
Dave - I love the fact that your standards for due diligence is so high and good lesson for all of us. This tells me that when you like something it must be almost as sure sort of a bet as it can be. In the Bitcoin case I think you should look at probabilistic scenarios - likelihood that Bitcoin doesn’t go down and value of Bitcoin if that were to happen vs likelihood that Bitcoin goes to zero and 100% loss. It seems you have made assessment that likelihood to fail in 10-30 years is very high and so not sure if anyone can change your opinion. From 20-40 years , how many companies will survive that and is it really required. Why not focus on 5-10 years and recalibrate risk every few years or as it changes
My interpretation of Dave's take on bitcoin is that he's bullish on it for the next 5-10 years (increasing institutional adoption), but beyond that timeframe he is bearish (governments feel threatened so they ban it collectively).
I think these sentiments are really helpful. Now it’s up to us personally to decide whether to invest in BTC to 10-30x in the next 10 years and then sell if it looks like government regulations “change its fundamentals” so to speak. I’m leaning towards riding the wave while we can
It's healthy to have doubts and worries about bitcoin even while being invested in it. I like Pomp's point that in ten and twenty years, the people in government who have the power to make decisions regarding bitcoin will likely be owners of bitcoin or at least realize how bitcoin is intertwined in everyday transactions of everyday life.
It assumes that the US will continue to be the world's reserve status. It doesn't take into.account that the US is a falling empire that may in fact Balkanize over the next 10-20 years.
Imagine this conversation happening in the year 1550. Pomp: "I really don't like this whole feudal system thing with Kings, lords & barons and then us surfs paying taxes to live on the kings land. I think we need a democracy" Dave: "The king will never allow that. Not possible."
Also imagine the scenario Dave mentioned down the line when governments gather together to ban Bitcoin. Its the year 2025 and BTC is at $5 trillion. Some countries sign an agreement to finally ban Bitcoin (because not all will of course). So the big dogs China, USA, France etc. go against the people and against the countries that have made it legal tender (ala Japan) and the Bitcoin price plummets in value once again. This will be a true case of prisoners dilemma on a grand scale for these countries where each has to "trust" that the other is not going to concede and "buy the dip" or capitulate later down the line and begin to start buying BTC secretly after realizing that Bitcoin IS STILL NOT DEAD.
@@THEHADIDA hahaha lol this has me cracking up because its exactly what would happen hahahaha "f#$% buy the dip we shouldn't have agreed, we shouldn't have agreed!!! hurry vietnam is piling in.. s#$% well sorry guys this is going to be a long next 100 years..."
You may think all these super powers are against one another, but let me give you an example. Dod recently signed a deal with an Australian rare earth miner. Guess who is the major owner of that miner? The Chinese government. Huh, that’s odd, thought China and US are competing and constantly making subtle threats, but Dod is buying rare earth materials from the Chinese government? 🧐
I follow Pomp's channel and newsletter religiously. This has been the best point, counter point interview on bitcoin. Need more interviews with other bitcoin bulls. Hard questions that need discussing. Thank you.
Paul Tudor Jones had been the first famous macro investor to declare his flame at Bitcoin in early May 2020. Shortly before Bitcoin's 3rd halving, Paul had explained that he now favoured the purchase of Bitcoin over Gold as a hedge against the great monetary inflation.
At the same time , Bitcoin fund of Gray-scale investments was enjoying phenomenal success. The clients of Gray-scale investments, who are more than 90% institutional investors, have been literally rushing to buy BTC for several months.
Dave..I think you have many similar questions of many people and I agree with your take on fiats and crypto. I'm in the tale end of the baby boomers at 57 years old. I've been in banking and finance for 29 years (mergers, acquisitions, and private equity plays). I came across your website on a cross search and found your logic refreshing. You have a very firm understanding of what makes a currency and you hit on the real issue with Crypto.....acceptance as a currency by the economic owners in the world (Western countries, Asian markets and the European economies). What makes value aka the power of fiats? Answer...the power of the economy behind the fiat. Where does that power come from...let's say from the United States? Their economic standing, their alliances and their ability to influence the world through force. All of those things are really what makes money and the tangible assets behind them worth what they are. Why do fiat currencies exist and decentralize? To manipulate. Oh..oh......manipulation grrrrr......that's what everyone that invests hates....its a ponzi scheme. Nope....it's the world economy which if you feel fiats are a ponzi then you have to think all economic activity is a ponzi.....manipulated by the powerful. Are they? Perhaps but that is another discussion. Fiats that can be manipulated (digital or paper or whatever....but not decentralized) and that manipulation is a shock absorber. Too much quantitative funny business hurts faith in the currency and thats not good.....BUT.....if you have your currency decentralized and this is true FOR ANY COUNTRY.....not just the United States....you put your country at a competitive disadvantage to other economies. Anthony Pompliano is very smart and influential....unfortunately most people don't do their diligence of why he is so pro Bitcoin....do the research ...I have. Could the world move to a decentralized money? Perhaps. But countries will ALWAYS try to add a "shock absorber" to their economy and inflation. Perhaps it comes through other ...more nefarious means. Now....here is the REAL question. What is YOUR...PERSONAL investment goal and time frame. Are you participating in Bitcoin as a political statement? As a FOMO? I invest to make U.S. Dollars as I live in the United States to improve my lifestyle. At my age I'll be dead before these changes in the planet currencies affect my retirement strategy. I don't like the volatility, I still believe that the United States will continue to be ONE of the major economic powers if not number 1 for the near term (read 30 or so years). Crypto does not serve as a viable, stable wealth builder the same way investing in actual companies do. I would prefer to invest in an IPO that I know will make a product or service and provide near term stable products and services. Anyway, I REALLY appreciate your thought process. You are one of the few people on the internet that rises above the 'Fanboi" Bitcoin behavior and this will serve you long term.
Interesting comment, but I'm curious what you mean by "most people don't do their diligence of why he is so pro Bitcoin"? What is it that you have found out about Anthony Pompliano?
@@drewpitt4898 I'm not implying anything sinister. I'm saying that Anthony Pompliano has a direct interest in pumping bit coin that goes beyond the typical investment analyst kind of connection/review. Morgan Creek Digital is a hedge fund which specializes in block chain technology and digital assets, and is backed by investment management firm Morgan Creek Capital. The firm was founded by Mark Yusko, Jason Williams and Anthony Pompliano in 2018. If you were to study a little more about Mark Yusko you'll see why there is a lot more to this Bitcoin pump than normal. The same goes for ANY investment / hedge fund operator. They sell their position and if they are any good they sell it strong. I'm a merger/acquisition / private equity person and I sell assets as well. But, I'm not allowed to talk about my positions and pump them on media. My company would consider that unethical to our investors. Our investors are both private and institutional and if they saw me publicly pumping positions I've sold them...they would probably pull out. Just different philosophies.
Dave I loved this interview and how you asked the hard questions. This is what the crypto space needs more of and I would love to see more Bitcoin and crypto-related interviews from you. I think you should interview Michael Saylor from MicroStrategy next. He's an excellent speaker and thought leader on Bitcoin now and has tons of investing experience in traditional markets as well. I'm sure you've prob heard of him by now with his company's massive BTC investment. Thanks for your awesome content!!
After watching this interview, I truly believe that an interview with Michael Saylor will help bring more clarity to many of your questions. I recommend watching his interview with Pomp and also the one with the "WhatBitcoinDid" podcast (the second part).
@@jeremywall8196 I disagree-- Unless the thesis on bitcoin will change, no one will be able to answer some of Dave's questions. In other words, many of Dave's questions/ problems on bitcoins are embedded within due to the inherent nature of what bitcoin is. Any solutions to many of Dave's questions are only true if and only if you assume that the wide adoption and success of bitcoin to be true. Assuming something is a solution to a problem only if it's successful by wide adoption and by the government is not a solution to begin with.
@@jeremywall8196 But yes I agree with you that I would love to see more interviews by Dave on more bitcoin bulls, as I couldn't agree with Dave more-- and truly enjoy how he can go up against even the most advanced long time researchers on bitcoin and yet, he can crush them while being so calm and respectful.
Lyn Alden was bearish on Bitcoin until 2020 and would be my highest recommendation. Michael Saylor CEO of Microstrategy could assist in your understanding after his large acquisition of bitcoin. Preston Pysh would be my final suggestion, he is always looking to answer questions in the space and find alternative views in the bitcoin space. Preston most likely has the largest knowledge regarding the protocol and can help assist qualms regarding intrinsic value and lack of cashflows. Hope this helps!
Dave, you missed the point on pegging a currency to future productivity. The concept is correct but the analysis of the peg is backwards. A fiat currency (like the dollar) does not have that peg you desire since the monetary policy allows it (encourages it) to be broken (your 1% ownership of future production will be destroyed by the injection of new currency) The Fed will always create more currency faster than base growth so that there is no effective peg. Bitcoin, will actually be more closely pegged to future productivity in that the producers in the country will hold Bitcoin and the hard monetary policy of Bitcoin will maintain the peg. The concept is good, but the correlation/causality is reversed due to the monetary policy differences. The peg to future productions will actually be better with Bitcoin than the native currency.
Agreed 100%. I feel like it's a bit of an older mentality glinging to smth known and being scared smth unknown. If u thing about it rationally Tony has a point because bitcoin gives stability where governments cant control it. And just look around the world, what's happening? There are government protests all over the world. These protest are coming from younger generations who dont want government control. Younger generation is the future for bitcoin
True. I think it would have made more sense if he compared bitcoin to an index fund. Even in countries experiencing hyperinflation you can protect your assets by investing in that country's stock market. But in no way is a fiat currency pegged to future productivity of a nation as we can see in history.
People and companies holding bitcoin has no bearing on the future productivity of those same people producing wealth for a countries economy, just the same as if they hold gold or silver.
@@andrewkorneychuk586 younger generation is not the future of bitcoin in my opinion. I feel bitcoin will always remain a commodity just like gold. It will never be a currency due to how volatile it is. Furthermore, as long as bitcoin continues to be compared to any dollar currency and becomes rare as time moves forward. No one in their right mind will spend their bitcoins when there is cheaper ways to obtain goods and assets. I.e. would you use your bitcoin to really purchase something on the internet when the price of bitcoin will rise for years to come (if it ever rises for years) or would you use your cheaper, fiat currency that continues to devalue (unless the feds strengthen their restrictions on printing money). In summary, In my opinion, the dollar has to fall for bitcoin to take over. World adoption of bitcoin needs to occur with the major countries in the world accepting it as an alternative to fiat. I just don't see the world collaborating together in such a way for that to happen. I think its better to make money while you can before its too late with bitcoin.
The problem with real estate is taxation, while it has intrinsic value the government knows it! So it's only valuable if theres inflation or if property values rise with scarcity of land, or if you rent or lease at a premium.
I love when a RUclipsr I subscribe to comments on a video I've watched that covers very different topic. Independent thinkers unite! Love your channel.
that and the larger your property the more likely you have increased upkeep on it. thus you use your wealth to keep your wealth. Yes, you get shelter from it but still require a lager upkeep the more expensive it is for the most part.
The REAL problem with real estate is government restrictions on how you can use it, or if you can use it at all. The inability to evict can be devastating, if you can't cover your mortgage. Covid comes to mind, but rent control is also a similar taking of your land rights, 'historical' designation, and got forbid some 'endangered species' is discovered living on it. Zimbabwe isn't just the poster country for hyperinflation, lots of its land owners ALSO lost everything, if the government decided that the owner didn't have enough melanin in their skin...
Yes, this guy has obviously 0 experience with situation when government gets desperate. Guys in US cant see that, they never experienced it.They never saw what happened just few decades ago here in Europe. Man I can tell you. Enjoy your real estate and investment gains from it ( as long as banks propels it through cheap mortgages). I can guarantee, that you will see a day when the government just simply take it from you or put such high property taxes that you will be begging your government to take it from you for free. This is reality. This is what most of the world population experienced in their lifetime. I know it is a science fiction for you. Only then you will understand how is Bitcoin different from real estate and how absolutely gigantic risk it is to own property compared to Bitcoin. Let you American dream live long...until it wont, then you get what Bitcoin really is. It is such a funny to hear all your concerns about government banning Bitcoin even-though they cannot enforce it. However you are totally oblivion and blind to government being able to ban owning of property and simply taking it from you which it can enforce easily. I know what is your objection to this.....They cannot do it, they would piss everyone, there would be riots.....man, I can tell you, been there, heard that....Trust me man, you live in a fairy tale, thats why you don't get Bitcoin idea.
This is legendary. I remember commenting a few months ago asking Dave what he thought about bitcoin and he didn’t seem to excited about it then. I hope pomp got Dave excited for bitcoin !:)
Dave's wasn't that interested because there is a ton of hype but not that much utility lol. In a way, it is basically a ponzi scheme or multilevel marketing, those who get in first benefit the most. Once everyone uses it then it becomes the new money, thereby making the early adopters filthy rich.
This is one of the best conversations around Bitcoin. I love the depth of questions and push back. This has helped a lot in gaining more understanding of Bitcoin.
This is one of your best episodes yet, Dave. I am both a tesla bull and a bitcoin bull, hence i've followed you since you began sharing content and i echo your comments about finding real, genuine, authentic (and FAIR) arguments both for and against both Tesla and Bitcoin and other ideas/assets too. Just rarely get that deep dive that takes into account the probabilities of both the good and the bad, the realistic, and the unrealistic. Usually I find most people just extend the echo chambers they're comfortable with and dont dare to step outside that zone to be open to learning more. Awesome interview - I hope you'll consider doing more of these.
Think a few points were missed on this 1. When you buy BTC you sign up to KYC through an exchange, this finds its way back to the government. No matter how many wallets you make they will be able to track where you sent BTC and can associate an identity. 2. BTC wont be used as a currency, much like gold isn't used as a currency, so this doesn't really threaten the notion of using a FIAT denominated currency or stablecoin for day to day purchases. As Pomp says, if you sell BTC you raise a taxable event so there is already regulation in place to penalize people from using it as a means of payment. 3. Derivatives markets are some of the largest in the world, more likely government looks to take taxes from wall street bets than from BTC 4. Treasuries, pension funds, wealth managers & central banks will likely own a portion of BTC as an inflation hedge. Banning it would be against their own self interest. When you give companies financial stability & growth, that money will eventually flow through in taxes. 5. Governments could in theory start seizing BTC like they did with Gold, considering this breaks the trust between government and individual - they would have to resort to torture and harsh prison time in order to extract this from their citizens. I'd envisage civil war or a complete breakdown of the dollar before this scenario would ever play out. Hopefully you could escape the country with your BTC!
Your point 1 is the same that I think, like, coinbase has my info, so what's the difference? and i have to pay fees every time i buy or sell, same as with any currency
@@AlansTheory sort of, fees arent the same as paying capital gains. Which you can be fined for not paying.. The main points made in this are that bitcoin somehow threatens nation fiat currency which is pretty ridiculous.
This is the best Bitcoin convo I’ve ever heard. Finally, we have two people with a macro and fundamental understanding. They’ve applied that understanding to Bitcoin well.
OK... how about this take. Dave is narrowing in on what's happening whereas Pomp is spinning out in bigger and bigger circles. btc sounds more like an ideology than something real like human productivity.
@@randomstuff-cd6oq How about this take. You have no clue on what BTC is if you think it's an ideology. Give a real reason as to why Pomp was wrong. BTW Dave is so wrong its not even close. Intrinsic value is a myth in life in general talk less of economics. Buying bond or holding a currency of a country pegged to the future productivity is still hinged upon the monetary policy of said country, there's no money with a better monetary policy than BTC. And comparing a nascent asset class to the real estate market highlights the lapse of real judgement on Daves' part. The real estate market didnt go from 0 to 300 trillion dollars without immense volatility and if you think otherwise then you need help.
@@randomstuff-cd6oq Your desire to label the arguments distracts from the arguments themselves. Any and every theory begins as an ideology. Moot point. Using that label adds no new information or value to the conversation. Address the arguments directly, or don't bother.
I've been a fan of Pomp for awhile now. But now, u just turned me into a subscriber, Dave. I like how u stayed open minded about bitcoin. And u seem to absorb and process new info from Pomp quite quickly. Thank u
Dave thanks for inviting Pomp on your show. Your discussion was awesome. I hold btc and eth and from my own experience believe in it’s value as non-bank, non-market digital investment, and as store of wealth. I also hold equities, many are increasing in value, but only a few are keeping ahead of btc. I also have realestate and the value proposition is snail’s pace but stable in comparison. I also keep some cash that only looses value over time in the bank. I think that the right approach is 20% crypto, 40% realestate, 20% cash, 20% equities. With that said, spending some of the cash or growth on Tesla products is the harvest.
Some aspects for consideration of bitcoin as a store of value versus real estate are: (1) property tax, (2) liquidity, (3) portability, (4) security, (5) fungibility, and (6) investment size flexibility. In these regards, bitcoin is vastly superior to real estate. If you want more price stability or need to invest beyond 10% of Bitcoin's market cap, then real estate might be your better option.
Real estate is the most overrated investment of all time. I've found, usually people who love it don't know much about business, stock market, or anything else. Either that or they're pussies. Lol.
@@betraytheteam I just think it's a big headache. Maybe REITs would be okay as a form of real estate holding... I really don't know that much about them, except that I don't have to be landlord. 😆
Sounds like you've listened to Robert Kiyosaki - or come to the same understanding on your own. Luckily I'm not in the US but I do understand that you guys Never own your real estate. Never, and in the meantime you pay extortionate taxes..... BTW I am a landlord but hopefully won't be for too much longer - and I don't own where I live...
@@jupiteradventure5284 If I'm thinking down the same paths as Robert Kiyosaki, then I must be doing okay. 🍻 Just out of curiosity, in what countries do people not pay property tax, or have a situation where the state ultimately owns the property? I can Google, but I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
Amazing interview. This is the GOLD standard for the new media. 2 sides bring their best arguments and dig deep into a topic that is so relevant. This is an interview that won’t happen on TV. Great jobs guys!! I learned so much from this interview
What I don't understand is that he says: "you just need internet connection and you can get bitcoin" but it's not like that, some company like Coinbase or Cash App has to review your bank account and validate you, and that company goes through government, so, how is it different than dollars?.
You can buy btc from atms that require little to no verification. Also, there are peer to peer websites like pawful.com that allow u to purchase without a exchange.
Dave - Good job. That was one of the best, most strategic, discussions about BTC, monetary systems, value, risks, and the future alternatives that I have seen. You reveal some real depth of thought. I look forward to seeing more conversations of this caliber. Most Bitcoiners are lightweights. I can hardly stand the reek of a pumping scheme and they communicate so poorly that I cannot follow their crackpot religious babble. Thank you. You asked about risks at the end. I believe that Cryptocurrency strength is also its greatest weakness. If it is indeed “pegged to computation” as Pomp said, then that is a big risk. Grand vision of sticking to the central bankers is at risk if local financial network fails due to disaster, war, or social collapse where business is done in cash or gold or food. Computation dependence also limits scaling due to energy consumption. How can such a wasteful, non-green, network scale to planet level? If we are going to have a civilization, we must have resilient currency that has a physical, analog base, if only paper backed by threat of violence or prison. These factors, added to the ones on government income threats, led me to agree with your hypothesis about government fiat expansion to digital dollars, Yuan, euro etc and make this a high probability outcome. Timeframe 20 years? In the meantime, Bitcoin is a great trade. Hard to time the bubble tho.... hodl till the peak? I appreciate you time horizon ~10y. Thank you again. Great polymath porn in Pomp’s terms.
Thank you Dave for your thoughtful questions. I tend to be a little more bullish long term on Bitcoin but I really appreciated your way you approach discussing with Pomp. You got a new subscriber and you sound like a very interesting person to have brunch or dinner with.
Dave-- May I just applaud you for asking the hard questions about $BTC. I wasn’t at all satisfied with the answers that Gali gave when you pressed him about the bear cases for $BTC. THANK you for doing this! Now- will you PLEASE look into the solar technology company Enphase ($ENPH)? I first asked you to do a video on them (in the comments) back when the share price was around $35 (today, it’s at $122). Your $TSLA clips/research are amazing- but there’s room to do analysis and investing in more than ONE renewable energy-centric company. Enphase is doing really interesting work in the home-micro grid space. They are also led by a brilliant CEO/engineer (Badri Kothandaraman- formerly of Cypress Semiconductor) from India and they are leading the the charge in electrifying whole swathes of sub-Saharan Africa (w/ partner Zola electric) and India. Best of luck and thanks for all of the hard work in bringing us actionable, thought-provoking content.
Wow this Dave guy is all over the shop. Would love to see shorter clear and concise question asking. I don’t know how pomp kept up. Great info thanks pomp!
I think the most powerful argument of bitcoin against real estate is bitcoin offers a stable rate of return of around 6% APY without the headaches of being a landlord. No tenants, upkeep, property taxes, renovations, etc. There are benefits obviously like tax write offs with real estate but I appreciate the APY and earning potential of bitcoin that comes with many less headaches!
Dave: I truly appreciate your interviews and perspective because I think exactly like you, with a rational and analytic approach, and it is hard to find people who stay rational when the heard is moving in a specific direction. I feel your concerns (my concerns) were not responded in this interview. Pompliano is seduced by the Bitcoin trend and unable to see the topic rationally. As an example, the computing power as an asset, what you replyed is exactly what a rational person would think after hearing that argument, how is computing power valuable if it's not being used in an application that gives value??. Anyway, thanks for the video. Cheers!
You obviously didn't listen to the same video as I did then.... the point about computing power was covered... I'm 65 but I think that you and Dave are Ludites, in the extreme.
Dave. It’s nice that you are doing a bit of a dive into crypto. I think there are better choices, and this year I think the best choice is Richard Heart. He actually had 2 debates with Pomp, this year and pomp kinda looks foolish. Although Richard was one of the original Bitcoin maximalists, he is not afraid to speak about bitcoins flaws. He has the technical knowledge but can converse with not technical interested parties such as yourself.
Loved this whole video, I’m glad I came across this. I agree with the last 5 mins, where you said it’s hard to find someone who really understands Bitcoin who can also take a bears POV, I guess because people who understand it are usually bulls. Hope to see more, I’ve subscribed.
Dave, I can see where your mental block is on bitcoin. You literally said US dollar has value because it’s a reflection of the work that is produced by the people using it. But at the same time you can’t see that same logic applies to all the people that choose to use bitcoin in the world. Michael saylor put 20 years of his earnings from work from his business into bitcoin. That’s value.
David seems to miss a small point, for most of economic history, currency WAS backed by something (gold). So to go back to hard money after 50 years of boom and bust cycles isn’t exactly novel. Governments have done it before while still holding power. To go back to a system of sound money is only prudent - especially with the monetary shenanigans of the past and the increasing wealth gap. It’s simply unsustainable. This has not a lot uncommon with first principles thinking which I'm sure this Elon bull can relate to - do we have to do things the same way forever? Does the economy have to be so unforgiving and unfair? Also, what wasn't discussed here is just how much the landscape has changed. Boomers all had bonds(!), equities and real estate, all at affordable levels that they could rely on for wealth accumulation. Look at the landscape now. It's important to look at all these metrics and see how it's changed.
I have been following you, Dave, on your interviews with various people regarding your desire for others to prove you wrong and convince you on investing in bitcoins. I have not been able to take that plunge into bitcoin because the narrative for the bitcoin is purely based on demand only. I couldn't thank you more for being the voice for those of us- who really want to invest in bitcoin but there are just too many loopholes where it's answers rely on the the need for it to be successful. All those answers saying it's an answer to inflationary fiat currency only works, if it's adopted as the major currency, hence it's not a solution by itself. The point about being so inefficient is so on point as well. And lastly, to say the computing power is the commodity it's being pegged to, is saying assume it's true that the decentralization is widely adopted, then if and only if then, will the necessity of computing power be something necessary. I thought it was so elegant when you described the necessity of computing power for bitcoin to be more of an expense rather than an Asset. Anyway, much thanks to the interviewer and interviewee- I think this one was the best amongst all other bitcoin interviews you've done, as you could see both players truly enjoying the intellectual challenges and different viewpoints( I thought the last two video interviewees on your channel were.. let's just say, they were not at all convincing in that they were very biased and too passionately invested in bitcoin to present their ideas in a convincing manner). Anyway, I so want to invest in bitcoin because I think it could be a huge profit protentional but until someone can persuade me otherwise, by being able to address all the questions Dave has and plus few more, I will stay with TSLA.
I have become a BTC bull, fervent one. Listened to Pomp a lot and Michael Saylor but Mr Dave Lee you made an excellent discussion. I will have to listen to it carefully one more time for sure. Great job.
Dave good interview and some hard questions but dave you failed to give a good reply/solution to the crazy amount of printing that is happening. Are we supposed to just keep repeating past mistakes where fiat currencies are inflated away? Another case that pomp didnt mention here is that Bitcoin can still be used as a medium of exchange without trying to kill the USD. If we look at how Paypal wants to offer bitcoin to its 330 million users. They will make bitcoin available to purchase you can buy and spend and send it but you never actually get direct interaction with it. It's like they are using it as a way to move money around and thats it. Then when people pull the money out of Paypal the exit is in USD. If governments go this route then there would still be demand for the local fiat currencies.
To echo many others, great discussion. I follow Pomp not because I agree with him at all times, but because of his open mind, depth, and professionalism. He’s a mentor in that regard.
Excellent conversation. Ultimately there are two polarizing forces, the central-conservative force and the forward moving-liberal force of technological innovation and disruption. These two forces have been in play since archaic times. Both of you played the roles of these two forces very well. Ultimately, the forward moving force, disrupts and conquers. The central-conservative force, stabilizes and settles. Bitcoin, is idea, who’s time has come.
This was awesome Dave! Thank you so much for your hard work and dedication. Please do more such interview formats on bitcoin in the future, I love when two different opinions come together.
Dave, I love the challenging question you asked Anthony. I have one challenging question your claim that the dollar representing a percentage of the output of America. The dollar since 1913 has lost 96% of it's purchasing power. If someone holds 1% of the US currency is not a percentage of the output of America, they hold 0.04% of the percentage of the output of America 100 years from now, not 1%. This devaluation is based on CPI too which doesn't include real estate which and assets which has inflated even more.
It is not about "intrinsic value". Think gold. Apart from specific uses, it has not any specific value. Its value is based on the fact that it can't be copied. If you have an ounce of gold, it is because either you spent some money buying it from someone else, or you spent an amount mining for it. Gold represents the same concept. If you own some Bitcoin, it is because you *spent* capital (work) either buying it or mining it. The house example you gave, is the same: if you own a home, it is hard proof that you either *spend* money (capital = work) either building it yourself or buying it. If anybody could just snap their fingers and the house appears, it won't be as valuable, because it won't represent any work (time plus effort). Even with a dollar bill: it represents work. You can't just snap your fingers to get one.
Great interview, Dave. I enjoyed the way you and Pomp talked about so many of the possibilities instead of just saying it was good or bad. One thing he didn't say that I've heard him say before, is even though there is all this uncertainty, a good thing to do is just invest like 1% of your capital into it, and leave it alone. If it goes to zero, you have only lost 1%. But if it hits one of those largest potential arcs he was talking about, you have exponential increase. So it's asymmetrical risk is very appealing. I also notice you said you thought it would do very well in the next 5 years, you were just concerned about it long term. In that case, why not buy some and then in 5 years sell half of it. You will realize a big profit and then take some off the table. I know the capital gains tax could be huge if you do that, but I buy GBTC in my Roth IRA so I don't have to worry about taxes. I know I pay a premium for GBTC, but to me it is worth it to store it in my Roth and not have eventual taxes. I also don't have to worry about losing my private keys. A share of GBTC is 1/1000 of a bitcoin, so you can calculate the current premium by looking at the price of bitcoin and then the price of GBTC. If the price of bitcoin is 15,000 and the price of GBTC is 17, then you can calculate the current GBTC premium. In late 2017 it was up around 100%, which is a ridiculous premium. Right now it's around 10-15%. If you are patient though, you can buy when the premium narrows. Sometimes the premium even goes negative, like if bitcoin was 14,000 and GBTC was selling for 13.50.
Dave I'm a bitcoin bull and I do believe in it. This is the first time I've actually heard an in depth, well thought out argument against it, very interesting stuff. My favorite and in my opinion very clear thinker on bitcoin is Dan Held. Would love to see you two in an interview together, really knows his stuff. RUclips needs more conversations like this, thanks Dave
@@DanielTWhite59 I concur but for deep fundamental understanding of the financial implications of the future based on the past mismanagement of money and the global need for the billions of unbanked to leap frog away from centralized control, in my opinion, Andreas is the analogue soul of digital Bitcoin.
@@jupiteradventure5284 and that's 1% of the economic future, unless more of it gets printed. Debt has to be repaid, and if you hold on to debt, you hold on to future money flows. The only debt that doesn't get paid back is bad debt, and holders of those have to suck it up. Varies in sectors and type of debt, but the default rates of debt goes anywhere from 50% on venture debt to less than 1% default rates on home mortgages, therefore their difference in risk premiums and rates.
What a freaking great conversation. Both parties having great informational arguments and never getting confrontational. Why dont we see this on traditional TV? at least i dont... :(
Regarding property as a good store of value: Don't you have to pay annual tax for it? (at least we do in Sweden) Also - It's very easy for a government to confiscate your property if they want to.
I don't think many people take into account the taxation part when they first think about investing in real estate, and the fact that if you don't spent money restoring the property it will decay and lose value.
Also, the property is exposed to natural phenomena (like: storms, earthquakes, lightning etc) and if you don't have insurance (that costs you money) is quite the opposite of a store of value. It's not liquid, if you want to leave the country immediately it's a pain to get even 80% of the value let's say. And so on. So, there is a lot of downside for real estate. If we are so peaky with bitcoin let's be the same with other assets as well.
Dave, the value of bitcoin is about the economics of scarcity, inextricably coupled with the ability to assign mutually agreed value to that same scarcity, and most importantly, be able to transfer that value immutably, without counterparty risk. Similar to gold, bit without the physical hassle.
Hi Dave. I think your argument in a way confirms the investment case. The only way BTC will fail is if it gets big enough that governments will ban it. For that to happen it would have to 10 - 50X from here. Seems like a no brainer to take a position and then if you are still concerned about the risk just rebalance as it runs up.
Both Dave and Pomp seemed to say that short-term, BTC has a lot of potential. But long term is the problem. It kind of sounds like a Ponzi scheme to me tbh.
This was a great back and forth. I think both commentators made great points. My understanding of Bitcoin is that it’s Digital Gold and I buy the argument of a long term store of value. Where I’m not so sure is that it becomes a way for us to transact like an ordinary currency so will not see mass adoption as a payment for goods and services. My reasoning being that the security of decentralisation means we sacrifice speed of transactions. As it becomes more popular it seems likely that this problem exacerbates itself. At some point we all need to convert Bitcoin back to our local currency to enable us to spend it. At this point it’s in the system and will enable governments to control it, tax it etc. I think for this reason it’s really unlikely governments will ban it.
The rich stay rich by spending like the poor and investing without stopping then the poor stay poor by spending like the rich yet not investing like the rich
Half way through the video and I truly enjoy this intellectual conversation and appreciate the mutual respect you both have for each other. Many of us are curious about bitcoin and its potential but its hard to come to RUclips with so many bullish comment and crazy predictions. We need facts and good debate. Thank you from a new subscriber. I hope your channel get more exposure. 👍🏼
Government might not take your real estate right away but there are two problems real estate is mostly purchased on credit and leveraged much more than BTC (think 2008) and there's already a wealth tax on real estate it's called property taxes. So it isn't the best store of value by far.
What a fantastic conversation between two of my favorite content creators on the planet. Thank you for everything you both are doing for democratizing financial education to the masses. You are changing lives!
Dave lee is thinking 30-60 years in future as far as governments being able too do a coordinated ban of bitcoin. At that point bitcoin will be worth $5m each and the gov will have to pay you for it
Amazing 👏...have been following pomp for a while and I agree with his take on bitcoin..but Dave completely nailed it when it comes anonymity of bitcoin transaction and intrinsic value of bitcoin .rare moment where you see pomp getting nervous
I wonder how many people would be interested in it if the price would not change which would be great for payment - i think 95 % of people love btc just because they see quick profit. I think you should interview Richard Hart he has turned from btc bull to bear
That’s true but btc by design is a deflationary currency. So it will go up as more adoption happens because the supply that gets created decreases. There are a lot of people that also believe in the btc movement and aren’t interested in price. But who doesn’t want to see what they truly believe in do well?
Anthony just nailed it...but yet lot to learn and be vigilant and keep learning, everyone.......very constructive conversation. We should have much more brainstorming about bitcoins future.
Awesome chat! I definitely learned a few things I didn't understand before and made me feel more bullish on Bitcoin. I invested in GBTC a 1% position (based on Chamath's advice) to get direct Bitcoin exposure about 6 months ago. I am up 135%. I won't likely increase this position, but it is worth having that 100x upside to my 1x downside.
He said that bitcoin is backed by the computer power, right? Does this have something to do with the miners? Right now, 65% of the miners are located in China. This seems pretty centralized to me... Thank you for this video Dave. I have been researching on bitcoin and its pretty enlightening to have someone questioning an expert like you did. Thank you
American company Grey scale owns 2% of all the bitcoins worth $10B. A lot of chinese miners stopped mining because of high electricity fees, while more miners are emerging from around the world.
If it’s existential to the government, meaning the gov will fail it Bitcoin is allowed to continue, I don’t see how it will be banned (especially if it has mass adoption)
My view of Bitcoin is actually pretty close to my view of Tesla. You're pretty much betting on potential, but the reason I find both bets so attractive are the various avenues they have to success, and the different arcs they have depending on how successful they are. It could be Tesla is fully valued right now, just like Bitcoin could be, like pomp said, maybe it'll stay a niche alt. asset, that 100ish million people will use for a kaleidoscope of reasons. Just like Tesla could just be an auto manufacturer, but will actually grow and succeed to produce 20 million cars. That would be about worth it's 420/share, though it's premature in getting there. Or they're both crazy undervalued, because Bitcoin is the next world reserve currency, or it's just extremely undervalued because of it's network and being an incredibly useful and agnostic settlement system, etc. etc. etc.And of course on the Tesla side, it's autonomy/batteries etc. They also have sort of the same knocks. Dave's dystopian system where all governments adopt byzantine rules to crush Bitcoin, is a bit like Tesla bears thinking it's self evident that the OEMs, once they decide to go electric, will simply turn their massive amounts of cash R&D and manufacturing might to building superior vehicles and crush Tesla like the gnat that they are. The way it actually plays out in the real world, in both cases I believe, is pretty different, and there are dynamics involved that actually tend to benefit the disruptor and handicap the entrenched interests. All that said, there are risks with both, which is why there's opportunity in both.
Wow. Very well thought out post. Good insight. I agree there are certainly parallels. Both have similar risk to reward ratios. I think not owning a little BTC and Tesla is more risky than not owning any. The potential exponential returns for both far out weigh the risks. Cheers,
You might be underestimating the power of Government. They actually have the ability to seize the other side. If an OEM had the ability to seize Tesla, yeah, I wouldn’t be a Tesla bull.
@@susanlee6426 A fairer comparison is probably early stage Tesla where plenty of people thought not just the OEMs, but Big Oil would use the government and money and every other tool and point of influence they had to ensure electrification never became a thing. And just to be clear, I don't discount the risk. It's real, and it's significant, I do not agree that it's a certainty. I'm not an all in Bitcoin person, but I do think it's prudent to have some exposure to it because of the skewed cost benefit of it.
Really intelligent interview Dave. I share a lot of the same concerns you have. I look forward to more of your videos. 👍🏽 I think you should have a conversation with Preston Pysh from The Investors Podcast. He is very bullish on Bitcoin and his analysis is very good.
This is probably the best Bitcoin conversation on the planet right now. Touches every level, every argument and every nuance without unnecessary demonizing, shouting and bias. Bravo!
So true...
Fidelity has a good article: www.fidelitydigitalassets.com/articles/addressing-bitcoin-criticisms
nice comment, very sensible
Love the back and forth as well. Most videos are bitcoin to the moon or bitcoin is totally useless without touching on all nuances
I'm quite disappointed that neither Pomp nor Dave understands what they are talking about wrt compute power and PoW. PoW is needed TO DISTRIBUTE COINS. The compute power available is directly related to the inflation value. This can't be compared to a centralized system. There is no intrinsic solution to distributing money for a centralied system. Also the "compute power" should be measured in global power usage. Global power usage can fall quite a lot even with increasing "compute power" in the network because of new technology. This WILL happen when the bitcoin price increase is below 20% y/y. This is pure math. Bitcoin isn't "inefficient" because of all of the compute power in the network. That compute power is a market where for every block, new bitcoins are auctioned off. Without that auction, the compute power would be a fraction of what it is, and thus this compute power is in no way needed to secure the network!
I love the way that you both patiently waited for the other party to make their point. It’s becoming rare
Impressive
Agreed. Very refreshing
That's because they're both independent and critical thinkers. If one of them was a religious or political fanatic, the conversation wouldn't be so polite and wouldn't even make sense.
Definitely one of the best interviews on BITCOIN
I wonder how much Dave would be up on Bitcoin if he invested in it when he posted his first video on it.
This is a text book examble of how we should discuss our concerns. Both Pomp and Dave are very intelligent, thoughtful and respectful commentators capable of respecting each others views. This is a video worth referencing to from time to time. Bravo Dave & Pomp...and thanks for your insights.
Dave - I love the fact that your standards for due diligence is so high and good lesson for all of us. This tells me that when you like something it must be almost as sure sort of a bet as it can be. In the Bitcoin case I think you should look at probabilistic scenarios - likelihood that Bitcoin doesn’t go down and value of Bitcoin if that were to happen vs likelihood that Bitcoin goes to zero and 100% loss. It seems you have made assessment that likelihood to fail in 10-30 years is very high and so not sure if anyone can change your opinion. From 20-40 years , how many companies will survive that and is it really required. Why not focus on 5-10 years and recalibrate risk every few years or as it changes
My interpretation of Dave's take on bitcoin is that he's bullish on it for the next 5-10 years (increasing institutional adoption), but beyond that timeframe he is bearish (governments feel threatened so they ban it collectively).
I think these sentiments are really helpful. Now it’s up to us personally to decide whether to invest in BTC to 10-30x in the next 10 years and then sell if it looks like government regulations “change its fundamentals” so to speak. I’m leaning towards riding the wave while we can
It's healthy to have doubts and worries about bitcoin even while being invested in it. I like Pomp's point that in ten and twenty years, the people in government who have the power to make decisions regarding bitcoin will likely be owners of bitcoin or at least realize how bitcoin is intertwined in everyday transactions of everyday life.
Dave says 1 point and then explains it 10 times...
It assumes that the US will continue to be the world's reserve status. It doesn't take into.account that the US is a falling empire that may in fact Balkanize over the next 10-20 years.
Dave - I wish you could talk to Raoul Pal or Simon Dixon. I would love to hear their responses to your concerns
I would also suggest Alex Saunders of Nuggets News
Or Michael Saylor.
Simon Dixon
Me too!
What exactly is his argument against bitcoin? I will destroy it here myself.
I shared some thoughts on Bitcoin this morning on this Twitter thread, twitter.com/heydave7/status/1324755251660902400?s=20
Imagine this conversation happening in the year 1550.
Pomp: "I really don't like this whole feudal system thing with Kings, lords & barons and then us surfs paying taxes to live on the kings land. I think we need a democracy"
Dave: "The king will never allow that. Not possible."
Also imagine the scenario Dave mentioned down the line when governments gather together to ban Bitcoin. Its the year 2025 and BTC is at $5 trillion. Some countries sign an agreement to finally ban Bitcoin (because not all will of course). So the big dogs China, USA, France etc. go against the people and against the countries that have made it legal tender (ala Japan) and the Bitcoin price plummets in value once again. This will be a true case of prisoners dilemma on a grand scale for these countries where each has to "trust" that the other is not going to concede and "buy the dip" or capitulate later down the line and begin to start buying BTC secretly after realizing that Bitcoin IS STILL NOT DEAD.
@@THEHADIDA hahaha lol this has me cracking up because its exactly what would happen hahahaha "f#$% buy the dip we shouldn't have agreed, we shouldn't have agreed!!! hurry vietnam is piling in.. s#$% well sorry guys this is going to be a long next 100 years..."
Julian L, hahaha, this means Bitcoin whales will hire private anarchist armies and militia to fight against government armies 😅
You may think all these super powers are against one another, but let me give you an example. Dod recently signed a deal with an Australian rare earth miner. Guess who is the major owner of that miner? The Chinese government. Huh, that’s odd, thought China and US are competing and constantly making subtle threats, but Dod is buying rare earth materials from the Chinese government? 🧐
I follow Pomp's channel and newsletter religiously. This has been the best point, counter point interview on bitcoin. Need more interviews with other bitcoin bulls. Hard questions that need discussing. Thank you.
Paul Tudor Jones had been the first famous macro investor to declare his flame at Bitcoin in early May 2020. Shortly before Bitcoin's 3rd halving, Paul had explained that he now favoured the purchase of Bitcoin over Gold as a hedge against the great monetary inflation.
At the same time , Bitcoin fund of Gray-scale investments was enjoying phenomenal success. The clients of Gray-scale investments, who are more than 90% institutional investors, have been literally rushing to buy BTC for several months.
The Big companies that bet on Bitcoin are already rewarded
The 38,250 BTC owned by MicroStrategy now represents the equivalent of $700 million.
+ 1 8 1 3 5 2 4 8 5 7 5
To get started.
Dave..I think you have many similar questions of many people and I agree with your take on fiats and crypto. I'm in the tale end of the baby boomers at 57 years old. I've been in banking and finance for 29 years (mergers, acquisitions, and private equity plays). I came across your website on a cross search and found your logic refreshing.
You have a very firm understanding of what makes a currency and you hit on the real issue with Crypto.....acceptance as a currency by the economic owners in the world (Western countries, Asian markets and the European economies). What makes value aka the power of fiats? Answer...the power of the economy behind the fiat. Where does that power come from...let's say from the United States? Their economic standing, their alliances and their ability to influence the world through force. All of those things are really what makes money and the tangible assets behind them worth what they are.
Why do fiat currencies exist and decentralize? To manipulate. Oh..oh......manipulation grrrrr......that's what everyone that invests hates....its a ponzi scheme. Nope....it's the world economy which if you feel fiats are a ponzi then you have to think all economic activity is a ponzi.....manipulated by the powerful. Are they? Perhaps but that is another discussion. Fiats that can be manipulated (digital or paper or whatever....but not decentralized) and that manipulation is a shock absorber. Too much quantitative funny business hurts faith in the currency and thats not good.....BUT.....if you have your currency decentralized and this is true FOR ANY COUNTRY.....not just the United States....you put your country at a competitive disadvantage to other economies. Anthony Pompliano is very smart and influential....unfortunately most people don't do their diligence of why he is so pro Bitcoin....do the research ...I have.
Could the world move to a decentralized money? Perhaps. But countries will ALWAYS try to add a "shock absorber" to their economy and inflation. Perhaps it comes through other ...more nefarious means.
Now....here is the REAL question. What is YOUR...PERSONAL investment goal and time frame. Are you participating in Bitcoin as a political statement? As a FOMO? I invest to make U.S. Dollars as I live in the United States to improve my lifestyle. At my age I'll be dead before these changes in the planet currencies affect my retirement strategy. I don't like the volatility, I still believe that the United States will continue to be ONE of the major economic powers if not number 1 for the near term (read 30 or so years). Crypto does not serve as a viable, stable wealth builder the same way investing in actual companies do. I would prefer to invest in an IPO that I know will make a product or service and provide near term stable products and services.
Anyway, I REALLY appreciate your thought process. You are one of the few people on the internet that rises above the 'Fanboi" Bitcoin behavior and this will serve you long term.
Interesting comment, but I'm curious what you mean by "most people don't do their diligence of why he is so pro Bitcoin"? What is it that you have found out about Anthony Pompliano?
@@drewpitt4898 I'm not implying anything sinister. I'm saying that Anthony Pompliano has a direct interest in pumping bit coin that goes beyond the typical investment analyst kind of connection/review.
Morgan Creek Digital is a hedge fund which specializes in block chain technology and digital assets, and is backed by investment management firm Morgan Creek Capital. The firm was founded by Mark Yusko, Jason Williams and Anthony Pompliano in 2018. If you were to study a little more about Mark Yusko you'll see why there is a lot more to this Bitcoin pump than normal.
The same goes for ANY investment / hedge fund operator. They sell their position and if they are any good they sell it strong. I'm a merger/acquisition / private equity person and I sell assets as well. But, I'm not allowed to talk about my positions and pump them on media. My company would consider that unethical to our investors. Our investors are both private and institutional and if they saw me publicly pumping positions I've sold them...they would probably pull out.
Just different philosophies.
@@mr.nobody673 Got it, thank you for clarifying!
I'm really enjoying how you're conducting these chats Dave!
Dave I loved this interview and how you asked the hard questions. This is what the crypto space needs more of and I would love to see more Bitcoin and crypto-related interviews from you. I think you should interview Michael Saylor from MicroStrategy next. He's an excellent speaker and thought leader on Bitcoin now and has tons of investing experience in traditional markets as well. I'm sure you've prob heard of him by now with his company's massive BTC investment. Thanks for your awesome content!!
After watching this interview, I truly believe that an interview with Michael Saylor will help bring more clarity to many of your questions. I recommend watching his interview with Pomp and also the one with the "WhatBitcoinDid" podcast (the second part).
@@jeremywall8196 I disagree-- Unless the thesis on bitcoin will change, no one will be able to answer some of Dave's questions. In other words, many of Dave's questions/ problems on bitcoins are embedded within due to the inherent nature of what bitcoin is. Any solutions to many of Dave's questions are only true if and only if you assume that the wide adoption and success of bitcoin to be true. Assuming something is a solution to a problem only if it's successful by wide adoption and by the government is not a solution to begin with.
@@jeremywall8196 But yes I agree with you that I would love to see more interviews by Dave on more bitcoin bulls, as I couldn't agree with Dave more-- and truly enjoy how he can go up against even the most advanced long time researchers on bitcoin and yet, he can crush them while being so calm and respectful.
@@JC-ul6iz “crush them”? Lol
@@michaellee8815 he posed really great questions to which no concrete solutions were given.
Lyn Alden was bearish on Bitcoin until 2020 and would be my highest recommendation. Michael Saylor CEO of Microstrategy could assist in your understanding after his large acquisition of bitcoin. Preston Pysh would be my final suggestion, he is always looking to answer questions in the space and find alternative views in the bitcoin space. Preston most likely has the largest knowledge regarding the protocol and can help assist qualms regarding intrinsic value and lack of cashflows. Hope this helps!
Lyn is not long on Bitcoin. She said it's a good short to medium term bet.
Another excellent interview. Totally enjoyed the deep exchange between the two. A+++. Looking forward to more such long detailed interviews..
Dave, you missed the point on pegging a currency to future productivity. The concept is correct but the analysis of the peg is backwards. A fiat currency (like the dollar) does not have that peg you desire since the monetary policy allows it (encourages it) to be broken (your 1% ownership of future production will be destroyed by the injection of new currency) The Fed will always create more currency faster than base growth so that there is no effective peg. Bitcoin, will actually be more closely pegged to future productivity in that the producers in the country will hold Bitcoin and the hard monetary policy of Bitcoin will maintain the peg. The concept is good, but the correlation/causality is reversed due to the monetary policy differences. The peg to future productions will actually be better with Bitcoin than the native currency.
Agreed 100%. I feel like it's a bit of an older mentality glinging to smth known and being scared smth unknown. If u thing about it rationally Tony has a point because bitcoin gives stability where governments cant control it. And just look around the world, what's happening? There are government protests all over the world. These protest are coming from younger generations who dont want government control. Younger generation is the future for bitcoin
True. I think it would have made more sense if he compared bitcoin to an index fund. Even in countries experiencing hyperinflation you can protect your assets by investing in that country's stock market. But in no way is a fiat currency pegged to future productivity of a nation as we can see in history.
People and companies holding bitcoin has no bearing on the future productivity of those same people producing wealth for a countries economy, just the same as if they hold gold or silver.
@@andrewkorneychuk586 younger generation is not the future of bitcoin in my opinion. I feel bitcoin will always remain a commodity just like gold. It will never be a currency due to how volatile it is. Furthermore, as long as bitcoin continues to be compared to any dollar currency and becomes rare as time moves forward. No one in their right mind will spend their bitcoins when there is cheaper ways to obtain goods and assets. I.e. would you use your bitcoin to really purchase something on the internet when the price of bitcoin will rise for years to come (if it ever rises for years) or would you use your cheaper, fiat currency that continues to devalue (unless the feds strengthen their restrictions on printing money). In summary, In my opinion, the dollar has to fall for bitcoin to take over. World adoption of bitcoin needs to occur with the major countries in the world accepting it as an alternative to fiat. I just don't see the world collaborating together in such a way for that to happen. I think its better to make money while you can before its too late with bitcoin.
The problem with real estate is taxation, while it has intrinsic value the government knows it! So it's only valuable if theres inflation or if property values rise with scarcity of land, or if you rent or lease at a premium.
I love when a RUclipsr I subscribe to comments on a video I've watched that covers very different topic. Independent thinkers unite! Love your channel.
that and the larger your property the more likely you have increased upkeep on it. thus you use your wealth to keep your wealth. Yes, you get shelter from it but still require a lager upkeep the more expensive it is for the most part.
The REAL problem with real estate is government restrictions on how you can use it, or if you can use it at all. The inability to evict can be devastating, if you can't cover your mortgage. Covid comes to mind, but rent control is also a similar taking of your land rights, 'historical' designation, and got forbid some 'endangered species' is discovered living on it. Zimbabwe isn't just the poster country for hyperinflation, lots of its land owners ALSO lost everything, if the government decided that the owner didn't have enough melanin in their skin...
Yes, this guy has obviously 0 experience with situation when government gets desperate. Guys in US cant see that, they never experienced it.They never saw what happened just few decades ago here in Europe. Man I can tell you. Enjoy your real estate and investment gains from it ( as long as banks propels it through cheap mortgages). I can guarantee, that you will see a day when the government just simply take it from you or put such high property taxes that you will be begging your government to take it from you for free. This is reality. This is what most of the world population experienced in their lifetime. I know it is a science fiction for you. Only then you will understand how is Bitcoin different from real estate and how absolutely gigantic risk it is to own property compared to Bitcoin. Let you American dream live long...until it wont, then you get what Bitcoin really is. It is such a funny to hear all your concerns about government banning Bitcoin even-though they cannot enforce it. However you are totally oblivion and blind to government being able to ban owning of property and simply taking it from you which it can enforce easily. I know what is your objection to this.....They cannot do it, they would piss everyone, there would be riots.....man, I can tell you, been there, heard that....Trust me man, you live in a fairy tale, thats why you don't get Bitcoin idea.
If you own 1% of USD you don’t own 1% of the economic future revenue.
This is legendary. I remember commenting a few months ago asking Dave what he thought about bitcoin and he didn’t seem to excited about it then. I hope pomp got Dave excited for bitcoin !:)
Dave's wasn't that interested because there is a ton of hype but not that much utility lol. In a way, it is basically a ponzi scheme or multilevel marketing, those who get in first benefit the most. Once everyone uses it then it becomes the new money, thereby making the early adopters filthy rich.
@@ecchen1 those were exactly my thoughts after watching this too - kind of sounds like a mlm or Ponzi scheme.
@@ecchen1 Yeah, like every investment , when is early? If it goes to $100.000, than $19.000 was early.
@@partofme5716 You're right. It's still early.
This is one of the best conversations around Bitcoin. I love the depth of questions and push back. This has helped a lot in gaining more understanding of Bitcoin.
Glad it was helpful!
This is one of your best episodes yet, Dave. I am both a tesla bull and a bitcoin bull, hence i've followed you since you began sharing content and i echo your comments about finding real, genuine, authentic (and FAIR) arguments both for and against both Tesla and Bitcoin and other ideas/assets too. Just rarely get that deep dive that takes into account the probabilities of both the good and the bad, the realistic, and the unrealistic. Usually I find most people just extend the echo chambers they're comfortable with and dont dare to step outside that zone to be open to learning more. Awesome interview - I hope you'll consider doing more of these.
Your intro was incredible, where you immediately lift the conversation beyond 99% of bitcoin conversations. Thanks Dave
Think a few points were missed on this
1. When you buy BTC you sign up to KYC through an exchange, this finds its way back to the government. No matter how many wallets you make they will be able to track where you sent BTC and can associate an identity.
2. BTC wont be used as a currency, much like gold isn't used as a currency, so this doesn't really threaten the notion of using a FIAT denominated currency or stablecoin for day to day purchases. As Pomp says, if you sell BTC you raise a taxable event so there is already regulation in place to penalize people from using it as a means of payment.
3. Derivatives markets are some of the largest in the world, more likely government looks to take taxes from wall street bets than from BTC
4. Treasuries, pension funds, wealth managers & central banks will likely own a portion of BTC as an inflation hedge. Banning it would be against their own self interest. When you give companies financial stability & growth, that money will eventually flow through in taxes.
5. Governments could in theory start seizing BTC like they did with Gold, considering this breaks the trust between government and individual - they would have to resort to torture and harsh prison time in order to extract this from their citizens. I'd envisage civil war or a complete breakdown of the dollar before this scenario would ever play out. Hopefully you could escape the country with your BTC!
Your point 1 is the same that I think, like, coinbase has my info, so what's the difference? and i have to pay fees every time i buy or sell, same as with any currency
@@AlansTheory sort of, fees arent the same as paying capital gains. Which you can be fined for not paying..
The main points made in this are that bitcoin somehow threatens nation fiat currency which is pretty ridiculous.
#1. no kyc unless all exchanges require this. good luck.
This is the best Bitcoin convo I’ve ever heard. Finally, we have two people with a macro and fundamental understanding. They’ve applied that understanding to Bitcoin well.
Brilliant display of a difference between deductive reasoning (Dave) and inductive reasoning (pomp)
Good observation
They are both making assumptions based on inference and past situations so they are both using inductive and deductive reasoning.
OK... how about this take. Dave is narrowing in on what's happening whereas Pomp is spinning out in bigger and bigger circles. btc sounds more like an ideology than something real like human productivity.
@@randomstuff-cd6oq How about this take. You have no clue on what BTC is if you think it's an ideology. Give a real reason as to why Pomp was wrong. BTW Dave is so wrong its not even close. Intrinsic value is a myth in life in general talk less of economics. Buying bond or holding a currency of a country pegged to the future productivity is still hinged upon the monetary policy of said country, there's no money with a better monetary policy than BTC. And comparing a nascent asset class to the real estate market highlights the lapse of real judgement on Daves' part. The real estate market didnt go from 0 to 300 trillion dollars without immense volatility and if you think otherwise then you need help.
@@randomstuff-cd6oq Your desire to label the arguments distracts from the arguments themselves. Any and every theory begins as an ideology. Moot point. Using that label adds no new information or value to the conversation. Address the arguments directly, or don't bother.
I've been a fan of Pomp for awhile now. But now, u just turned me into a subscriber, Dave. I like how u stayed open minded about bitcoin. And u seem to absorb and process new info from Pomp quite quickly. Thank u
Same here
What a great pair up of minds from two different sides of the RUclips investments space. Excellent stuff guys.
Dave thanks for inviting Pomp on your show. Your discussion was awesome. I hold btc and eth and from my own experience believe in it’s value as non-bank, non-market digital investment, and as store of wealth. I also hold equities, many are increasing in value, but only a few are keeping ahead of btc. I also have realestate and the value proposition is snail’s pace but stable in comparison. I also keep some cash that only looses value over time in the bank. I think that the right approach is 20% crypto, 40% realestate, 20% cash, 20% equities. With that said, spending some of the cash or growth on Tesla products is the harvest.
Some aspects for consideration of bitcoin as a store of value versus real estate are: (1) property tax, (2) liquidity, (3) portability, (4) security, (5) fungibility, and (6) investment size flexibility. In these regards, bitcoin is vastly superior to real estate.
If you want more price stability or need to invest beyond 10% of Bitcoin's market cap, then real estate might be your better option.
Real estate is the most overrated investment of all time. I've found, usually people who love it don't know much about business, stock market, or anything else. Either that or they're pussies. Lol.
@@betraytheteam I just think it's a big headache. Maybe REITs would be okay as a form of real estate holding... I really don't know that much about them, except that I don't have to be landlord. 😆
@@glenw3814 totally agree.
Sounds like you've listened to Robert Kiyosaki - or come to the same understanding on your own. Luckily I'm not in the US but I do understand that you guys Never own your real estate. Never, and in the meantime you pay extortionate taxes..... BTW I am a landlord but hopefully won't be for too much longer - and I don't own where I live...
@@jupiteradventure5284 If I'm thinking down the same paths as Robert Kiyosaki, then I must be doing okay. 🍻
Just out of curiosity, in what countries do people not pay property tax, or have a situation where the state ultimately owns the property? I can Google, but I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
This was a really good interview. Dave's skepticism is valid, and Pomp's bullishness is not unreasonable. Who knows where we'll end up.
Amazing interview. This is the GOLD standard for the new media. 2 sides bring their best arguments and dig deep into a topic that is so relevant. This is an interview that won’t happen on TV. Great jobs guys!! I learned so much from this interview
What I don't understand is that he says: "you just need internet connection and you can get bitcoin" but it's not like that, some company like Coinbase or Cash App has to review your bank account and validate you, and that company goes through government, so, how is it different than dollars?.
You can buy btc from atms that require little to no verification. Also, there are peer to peer websites like pawful.com that allow u to purchase without a exchange.
This was a constructive debate, which I felt was very interesting.
Dave - Good job. That was one of the best, most strategic, discussions about BTC, monetary systems, value, risks, and the future alternatives that I have seen. You reveal some real depth of thought.
I look forward to seeing more conversations of this caliber. Most Bitcoiners are lightweights. I can hardly stand the reek of a pumping scheme and they communicate so poorly that I cannot follow their crackpot religious babble. Thank you.
You asked about risks at the end. I believe that Cryptocurrency strength is also its greatest weakness. If it is indeed “pegged to computation” as Pomp said, then that is a big risk. Grand vision of sticking to the central bankers is at risk if local financial network fails due to disaster, war, or social collapse where business is done in cash or gold or food. Computation dependence also limits scaling due to energy consumption. How can such a wasteful, non-green, network scale to planet level? If we are going to have a civilization, we must have resilient currency that has a physical, analog base, if only paper backed by threat of violence or prison. These factors, added to the ones on government income threats, led me to agree with your hypothesis about government fiat expansion to digital dollars, Yuan, euro etc and make this a high probability outcome. Timeframe 20 years?
In the meantime, Bitcoin is a great trade. Hard to time the bubble tho.... hodl till the peak? I appreciate you time horizon ~10y. Thank you again. Great polymath porn in Pomp’s terms.
Dave I appreciate your hard work! Thanks for uploading so often
Thank you Dave for your thoughtful questions. I tend to be a little more bullish long term on Bitcoin but I really appreciated your way you approach discussing with Pomp. You got a new subscriber and you sound like a very interesting person to have brunch or dinner with.
Dave-- May I just applaud you for asking the hard questions about $BTC. I wasn’t at all satisfied with the answers that Gali gave when you pressed him about the bear cases for $BTC. THANK you for doing this! Now- will you PLEASE look into the solar technology company Enphase ($ENPH)? I first asked you to do a video on them (in the comments) back when the share price was around $35 (today, it’s at $122). Your $TSLA clips/research are amazing- but there’s room to do analysis and investing in more than ONE renewable energy-centric company. Enphase is doing really interesting work in the home-micro grid space. They are also led by a brilliant CEO/engineer (Badri Kothandaraman- formerly of Cypress Semiconductor) from India and they are leading the the charge in electrifying whole swathes of sub-Saharan Africa (w/ partner Zola electric) and India.
Best of luck and thanks for all of the hard work in bringing us actionable, thought-provoking content.
The abrupt way Dave ends his interviews cracks me up every time.
Pomp was a great choice for a first interview on this topic. I'd recommend trying to get Andreas Antonopoulos next.
I agree. AA would be excellent too.
"not sure I can answer your question, but I'll try"
(answers all questions from the beginning of time amazingly well)
What a class!
Next guest: Robert Breedlove!
Wow this Dave guy is all over the shop. Would love to see shorter clear and concise question asking. I don’t know how pomp kept up.
Great info thanks pomp!
I think the most powerful argument of bitcoin against real estate is bitcoin offers a stable rate of return of around 6% APY without the headaches of being a landlord. No tenants, upkeep, property taxes, renovations, etc. There are benefits obviously like tax write offs with real estate but I appreciate the APY and earning potential of bitcoin that comes with many less headaches!
Dave: I truly appreciate your interviews and perspective because I think exactly like you, with a rational and analytic approach, and it is hard to find people who stay rational when the heard is moving in a specific direction. I feel your concerns (my concerns) were not responded in this interview. Pompliano is seduced by the Bitcoin trend and unable to see the topic rationally. As an example, the computing power as an asset, what you replyed is exactly what a rational person would think after hearing that argument, how is computing power valuable if it's not being used in an application that gives value??. Anyway, thanks for the video. Cheers!
You obviously didn't listen to the same video as I did then.... the point about computing power was covered... I'm 65 but I think that you and Dave are Ludites, in the extreme.
Dave. It’s nice that you are doing a bit of a dive into crypto. I think there are better choices, and this year I think the best choice is Richard Heart. He actually had 2 debates with Pomp, this year and pomp kinda looks foolish. Although Richard was one of the original Bitcoin maximalists, he is not afraid to speak about bitcoins flaws. He has the technical knowledge but can converse with not technical interested parties such as yourself.
Excellent professional debate. This is how we learn. Thanks.
Loved this whole video, I’m glad I came across this.
I agree with the last 5 mins, where you said it’s hard to find someone who really understands Bitcoin who can also take a bears POV, I guess because people who understand it are usually bulls.
Hope to see more, I’ve subscribed.
Dave, I can see where your mental block is on bitcoin. You literally said US dollar has value because it’s a reflection of the work that is produced by the people using it. But at the same time you can’t see that same logic applies to all the people that choose to use bitcoin in the world. Michael saylor put 20 years of his earnings from work from his business into bitcoin. That’s value.
No, that's stupidity
David seems to miss a small point, for most of economic history, currency WAS backed by something (gold). So to go back to hard money after 50 years of boom and bust cycles isn’t exactly novel. Governments have done it before while still holding power. To go back to a system of sound money is only prudent - especially with the monetary shenanigans of the past and the increasing wealth gap. It’s simply unsustainable. This has not a lot uncommon with first principles thinking which I'm sure this Elon bull can relate to - do we have to do things the same way forever? Does the economy have to be so unforgiving and unfair?
Also, what wasn't discussed here is just how much the landscape has changed. Boomers all had bonds(!), equities and real estate, all at affordable levels that they could rely on for wealth accumulation. Look at the landscape now. It's important to look at all these metrics and see how it's changed.
Well said. Bitcoin challeges our assumtions about money and the financial system. History rhymes for sure. Realestate is not the be all and end all.
I have been following you, Dave, on your interviews with various people regarding your desire for others to prove you wrong and convince you on investing in bitcoins. I have not been able to take that plunge into bitcoin because the narrative for the bitcoin is purely based on demand only. I couldn't thank you more for being the voice for those of us- who really want to invest in bitcoin but there are just too many loopholes where it's answers rely on the the need for it to be successful. All those answers saying it's an answer to inflationary fiat currency only works, if it's adopted as the major currency, hence it's not a solution by itself. The point about being so inefficient is so on point as well. And lastly, to say the computing power is the commodity it's being pegged to, is saying assume it's true that the decentralization is widely adopted, then if and only if then, will the necessity of computing power be something necessary. I thought it was so elegant when you described the necessity of computing power for bitcoin to be more of an expense rather than an Asset. Anyway, much thanks to the interviewer and interviewee- I think this one was the best amongst all other bitcoin interviews you've done, as you could see both players truly enjoying the intellectual challenges and different viewpoints( I thought the last two video interviewees on your channel were.. let's just say, they were not at all convincing in that they were very biased and too passionately invested in bitcoin to present their ideas in a convincing manner). Anyway, I so want to invest in bitcoin because I think it could be a huge profit protentional but until someone can persuade me otherwise, by being able to address all the questions Dave has and plus few more, I will stay with TSLA.
Absolutely phenomenal conversation. Thank you both.
Thanks Dave. Didn’t expect I can sit thru this whole video. The discussion is so interesting. Plz continue to make more videos like this. Kudos.
Hi Dave, wonderful interview! I’d love to see you interview Michael Saylor, the CEO of MicroStrategy
I have become a BTC bull, fervent one. Listened to Pomp a lot and Michael Saylor but Mr Dave Lee you made an excellent discussion. I will have to listen to it carefully one more time for sure. Great job.
Dave good interview and some hard questions but dave you failed to give a good reply/solution to the crazy amount of printing that is happening. Are we supposed to just keep repeating past mistakes where fiat currencies are inflated away?
Another case that pomp didnt mention here is that Bitcoin can still be used as a medium of exchange without trying to kill the USD. If we look at how Paypal wants to offer bitcoin to its 330 million users. They will make bitcoin available to purchase you can buy and spend and send it but you never actually get direct interaction with it. It's like they are using it as a way to move money around and thats it. Then when people pull the money out of Paypal the exit is in USD. If governments go this route then there would still be demand for the local fiat currencies.
Every argument for and against Bitcoin is all based on hypothesis and what if scenario.
To echo many others, great discussion. I follow Pomp not because I agree with him at all times, but because of his open mind, depth, and professionalism. He’s a mentor in that regard.
Excellent conversation. Ultimately there are two polarizing forces, the central-conservative force and the forward moving-liberal force of technological innovation and disruption. These two forces have been in play since archaic times.
Both of you played the roles of these two forces very well. Ultimately, the forward moving force, disrupts and conquers. The central-conservative force, stabilizes and settles.
Bitcoin, is idea, who’s time has come.
This was awesome Dave! Thank you so much for your hard work and dedication. Please do more such interview formats on bitcoin in the future, I love when two different opinions come together.
Dave, I love the challenging question you asked Anthony. I have one challenging question your claim that the dollar representing a percentage of the output of America. The dollar since 1913 has lost 96% of it's purchasing power. If someone holds 1% of the US currency is not a percentage of the output of America, they hold 0.04% of the percentage of the output of America 100 years from now, not 1%. This devaluation is based on CPI too which doesn't include real estate which and assets which has inflated even more.
It is not about "intrinsic value". Think gold. Apart from specific uses, it has not any specific value. Its value is based on the fact that it can't be copied. If you have an ounce of gold, it is because either you spent some money buying it from someone else, or you spent an amount mining for it.
Gold represents the same concept. If you own some Bitcoin, it is because you *spent* capital (work) either buying it or mining it.
The house example you gave, is the same: if you own a home, it is hard proof that you either *spend* money (capital = work) either building it yourself or buying it.
If anybody could just snap their fingers and the house appears, it won't be as valuable, because it won't represent any work (time plus effort).
Even with a dollar bill: it represents work. You can't just snap your fingers to get one.
Gold is useless
More talks like this please! Great honest discussion on BTC.
Nice one Dave. Love your interviews. Keep em coming!
Great interview, Dave. I enjoyed the way you and Pomp talked about so many of the possibilities instead of just saying it was good or bad. One thing he didn't say that I've heard him say before, is even though there is all this uncertainty, a good thing to do is just invest like 1% of your capital into it, and leave it alone. If it goes to zero, you have only lost 1%. But if it hits one of those largest potential arcs he was talking about, you have exponential increase. So it's asymmetrical risk is very appealing. I also notice you said you thought it would do very well in the next 5 years, you were just concerned about it long term. In that case, why not buy some and then in 5 years sell half of it. You will realize a big profit and then take some off the table. I know the capital gains tax could be huge if you do that, but I buy GBTC in my Roth IRA so I don't have to worry about taxes. I know I pay a premium for GBTC, but to me it is worth it to store it in my Roth and not have eventual taxes. I also don't have to worry about losing my private keys. A share of GBTC is 1/1000 of a bitcoin, so you can calculate the current premium by looking at the price of bitcoin and then the price of GBTC. If the price of bitcoin is 15,000 and the price of GBTC is 17, then you can calculate the current GBTC premium. In late 2017 it was up around 100%, which is a ridiculous premium. Right now it's around 10-15%. If you are patient though, you can buy when the premium narrows. Sometimes the premium even goes negative, like if bitcoin was 14,000 and GBTC was selling for 13.50.
That was absolute fire and helpful! Thanks Dave and Pomp.
Glad you liked it!
Dave I'm a bitcoin bull and I do believe in it. This is the first time I've actually heard an in depth, well thought out argument against it, very interesting stuff.
My favorite and in my opinion very clear thinker on bitcoin is Dan Held. Would love to see you two in an interview together, really knows his stuff. RUclips needs more conversations like this, thanks Dave
Dave, there is really only one man, Andreas M. Antonopoulos, the godfather of Bitcoin!
Or Simon Dixon
@@DanielTWhite59 I concur but for deep fundamental understanding of the financial implications of the future based on the past mismanagement of money and the global need for the billions of unbanked to leap frog away from centralized control, in my opinion, Andreas is the analogue soul of digital Bitcoin.
. Andreas is great but far from being the only man. This guy just encouraged me to buy more
To disagree without being disagreeable is a skill. Great job with the discussion guys.
If you own 1% of USD you don’t own 1% of the economic future revenue.
You 'own' DEBT
@@jupiteradventure5284 and that's 1% of the economic future, unless more of it gets printed. Debt has to be repaid, and if you hold on to debt, you hold on to future money flows. The only debt that doesn't get paid back is bad debt, and holders of those have to suck it up. Varies in sectors and type of debt, but the default rates of debt goes anywhere from 50% on venture debt to less than 1% default rates on home mortgages, therefore their difference in risk premiums and rates.
What a freaking great conversation. Both parties having great informational arguments and never getting confrontational. Why dont we see this on traditional TV? at least i dont... :(
Thanks! I love respectful and deep conversation.
Regarding property as a good store of value: Don't you have to pay annual tax for it? (at least we do in Sweden) Also - It's very easy for a government to confiscate your property if they want to.
I don't think many people take into account the taxation part when they first think about investing in real estate, and the fact that if you don't spent money restoring the property it will decay and lose value.
Also, the property is exposed to natural phenomena (like: storms, earthquakes, lightning etc) and if you don't have insurance (that costs you money) is quite the opposite of a store of value. It's not liquid, if you want to leave the country immediately it's a pain to get even 80% of the value let's say. And so on. So, there is a lot of downside for real estate. If we are so peaky with bitcoin let's be the same with other assets as well.
Dave, the value of bitcoin is about the economics of scarcity, inextricably coupled with the ability to assign mutually agreed value to that same scarcity, and most importantly, be able to transfer that value immutably, without counterparty risk. Similar to gold, bit without the physical hassle.
agree but the currency use case is makes for much MUCH stronger investment (profit) thesis and therefore needs to be explored
this discussion is on an entirely different level. I really really learnt a lot.
Stupefying depth, great civility, unequalled value. Thank you both!
Hi Dave. I think your argument in a way confirms the investment case. The only way BTC will fail is if it gets big enough that governments will ban it. For that to happen it would have to 10 - 50X from here. Seems like a no brainer to take a position and then if you are still concerned about the risk just rebalance as it runs up.
That's good!
Both Dave and Pomp seemed to say that short-term, BTC has a lot of potential. But long term is the problem.
It kind of sounds like a Ponzi scheme to me tbh.
This was a great back and forth. I think both commentators made great points. My understanding of Bitcoin is that it’s Digital Gold and I buy the argument of a long term store of value. Where I’m not so sure is that it becomes a way for us to transact like an ordinary currency so will not see mass adoption as a payment for goods and services. My reasoning being that the security of decentralisation means we sacrifice speed of transactions. As it becomes more popular it seems likely that this problem exacerbates itself. At some point we all need to convert Bitcoin back to our local currency to enable us to spend it. At this point it’s in the system and will enable governments to control it, tax it etc. I think for this reason it’s really unlikely governments will ban it.
Bitcoin is the future and investing now is the wisest thing one can ever do now
Yeah that's true
The rich stay rich by spending like the poor and investing without stopping then the poor stay poor by spending like the rich yet not investing like the rich
Her success story is everywhere
Her story is all over Vietnam 🇻🇳
Who is this expert every one is talking about
Pomp. One of our GREAT ambassadors for btc. Thank you for all you do.
YEEEEES!
my favorite people talking about my favorite topic!
Half way through the video and I truly enjoy this intellectual conversation and appreciate the mutual respect you both have for each other. Many of us are curious about bitcoin and its potential but its hard to come to RUclips with so many bullish comment and crazy predictions. We need facts and good debate. Thank you from a new subscriber. I hope your channel get more exposure. 👍🏼
It's frustrating listening to Dave's lack of understanding but he seems like a smart guy. I'm sure he'll eventually figure it out.
Government might not take your real estate right away but there are two problems real estate is mostly purchased on credit and leveraged much more than BTC (think 2008) and there's already a wealth tax on real estate it's called property taxes. So it isn't the best store of value by far.
I like when Dave jots down notes lol
What a fantastic conversation between two of my favorite content creators on the planet. Thank you for everything you both are doing for democratizing financial education to the masses. You are changing lives!
Dave lee is thinking 30-60 years in future as far as governments being able too do a coordinated ban of bitcoin. At that point bitcoin will be worth $5m each and the gov will have to pay you for it
Hell yeah
wow great one! good conversation. I came here because of pomp. but now I will have a deeper look at your channel as well.
Hey Dave, government will never give up control!!
Amazing 👏...have been following pomp for a while and I agree with his take on bitcoin..but Dave completely nailed it when it comes anonymity of bitcoin transaction and intrinsic value of bitcoin .rare moment where you see pomp getting nervous
I wonder how many people would be interested in it if the price would not change which would be great for payment - i think 95 % of people love btc just because they see quick profit. I think you should interview Richard Hart he has turned from btc bull to bear
Tesla, Amazon too
That’s true but btc by design is a deflationary currency. So it will go up as more adoption happens because the supply that gets created decreases. There are a lot of people that also believe in the btc movement and aren’t interested in price. But who doesn’t want to see what they truly believe in do well?
Anthony just nailed it...but yet lot to learn and be vigilant and keep learning, everyone.......very constructive conversation. We should have much more brainstorming about bitcoins future.
Have you tried to reach out to Ark Invest? Would love to hear you have a conversation with them on this topic!
Awesome chat! I definitely learned a few things I didn't understand before and made me feel more bullish on Bitcoin. I invested in GBTC a 1% position (based on Chamath's advice) to get direct Bitcoin exposure about 6 months ago. I am up 135%. I won't likely increase this position, but it is worth having that 100x upside to my 1x downside.
With that logic, I might consider a 2% stake
Yesssss I listen to him and his wife daily with lunch money!
bang bang!
One of the best interviews on bitcoin! I enjoyed the conversation a lot!
Damn dave ! You’re on it!
He said that bitcoin is backed by the computer power, right? Does this have something to do with the miners? Right now, 65% of the miners are located in China. This seems pretty centralized to me...
Thank you for this video Dave. I have been researching on bitcoin and its pretty enlightening to have someone questioning an expert like you did. Thank you
American company Grey scale owns 2% of all the bitcoins worth $10B. A lot of chinese miners stopped mining because of high electricity fees, while more miners are emerging from around the world.
I think mass adaptation by the rich and powerful is what will make sure bitcoins are never banned
100%
Agreed. Which makes the next two years the most dangerous period, not five years from now.
If it’s existential to the government, meaning the gov will fail it Bitcoin is allowed to continue, I don’t see how it will be banned (especially if it has mass adoption)
Institutions are already buying in! That is the key.
Was great to see a disagreement but no shots fired
Very civil Very informative !
You should do way more of these !!!!
Thanks
My view of Bitcoin is actually pretty close to my view of Tesla. You're pretty much betting on potential, but the reason I find both bets so attractive are the various avenues they have to success, and the different arcs they have depending on how successful they are. It could be Tesla is fully valued right now, just like Bitcoin could be, like pomp said, maybe it'll stay a niche alt. asset, that 100ish million people will use for a kaleidoscope of reasons. Just like Tesla could just be an auto manufacturer, but will actually grow and succeed to produce 20 million cars. That would be about worth it's 420/share, though it's premature in getting there. Or they're both crazy undervalued, because Bitcoin is the next world reserve currency, or it's just extremely undervalued because of it's network and being an incredibly useful and agnostic settlement system, etc. etc. etc.And of course on the Tesla side, it's autonomy/batteries etc.
They also have sort of the same knocks. Dave's dystopian system where all governments adopt byzantine rules to crush Bitcoin, is a bit like Tesla bears thinking it's self evident that the OEMs, once they decide to go electric, will simply turn their massive amounts of cash R&D and manufacturing might to building superior vehicles and crush Tesla like the gnat that they are. The way it actually plays out in the real world, in both cases I believe, is pretty different, and there are dynamics involved that actually tend to benefit the disruptor and handicap the entrenched interests. All that said, there are risks with both, which is why there's opportunity in both.
Wow. Very well thought out post. Good insight. I agree there are certainly parallels. Both have similar risk to reward ratios. I think not owning a little
BTC and Tesla is more risky than not owning any. The potential exponential returns for both far out weigh the risks. Cheers,
Brilliant response. Everything I wanted to say and more. Distinctly and clearly put.
You might be underestimating the power of Government. They actually have the ability to seize the other side.
If an OEM had the ability to seize Tesla, yeah, I wouldn’t be a Tesla bull.
@@susanlee6426 A fairer comparison is probably early stage Tesla where plenty of people thought not just the OEMs, but Big Oil would use the government and money and every other tool and point of influence they had to ensure electrification never became a thing. And just to be clear, I don't discount the risk. It's real, and it's significant, I do not agree that it's a certainty. I'm not an all in Bitcoin person, but I do think it's prudent to have some exposure to it because of the skewed cost benefit of it.
Pomp is so low ego. Really great conversation
Bitcoin is the ultimate store of energy/value this is just the beginning 🥂
Really intelligent interview Dave. I share a lot of the same concerns you have. I look forward to more of your videos. 👍🏽 I think you should have a conversation with Preston Pysh from The Investors Podcast. He is very bullish on Bitcoin and his analysis is very good.
Dave says 1 point and then explains it 10 times...
😂 I think he’s just working through it in his own mind. We’re all do that with new and complex topics.