The T-45 Pilot who "Never Lost a Dogfight"
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- Опубликовано: 28 дек 2023
- Robert "Jungle" Jones explains how he prevailed during every #topgun Grad 1v1 #dogfight despite #flying an orange and white T-45 #goshawk training #aircraft.
Watch the full episode here: • 9. Flying the F-14D "S... 
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If this guy were flying a Mitsubishi Zero in The Final Countdown, it might've been a different scene.
Good reference there. but i would say. He just have the eye and feel for it :). (back to digital combat simulator me go) :) Happy new yeae 2024 from Sweden.
As I listen to this interview, two things immediately jumped to mind.
1, it really does come down to the pilot in the cockpit.
2, if you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough.
This is great stuff! Loved it.
Crunch! Good to see you’re doing well. This made my day. You were my XO at VT-9, helped me out many a time. Thanks for being a great XO and IP.
im a Ftr Weapon’s grad from 1988…Marine F4’s….we got our sss kicked by F5’s all day long until we finally listened and stopped doing what they did best…used what the F4 cd do btr…sustained 5g turns, 450 indicated, until they cdnt….then go vert…..get the guy to go defensive and slow….bfm was a contest when youre fighting similar…if not, don’t get involved in their fight…non combats don’t get it and i understand….airplanes can only do what they are crafted to do….being a 25 yr old naval aviator doesnt make you a winner…TopGun was the best 5 weeks of my life
RAF plan if the balloon went up was to pair the training Hawks flown by instructors with Tornado ADVs. Tornado's would snipe and guide the Hawks, Hawks would take advantage of being small and hard to see and the distraction of the Tornadoes to get in close and use Sidewinders. I think Aircrew Interview has an interview with a Tornado pilot who had success with it in 4x4, two pairs of each on his side.
Hope they change the paint first! (at least for U.S. versions)
Interesting that that's pretty much exactly what the Indians did with Have Cope against the USAF and the Su-30's acting as de-facto AWACS for the MiG-21's.
@@FighterPilotPodcast RAF Training hawks have been painted black for decades now. But that role did also extend to the RAF's Aerobatic Display Team, ie, the Red Arrows, and there are still some photos of them around armed with a pair of Sidewinders and 30mm Aden cannon pod.
As rooster said,it's not the plane it's the pilot.
And Rooster was simply quoting Manfred von Richthofen:
quotefancy.com/quote/1384075/Manfred-von-Richthofen-The-quality-of-the-box-matters-little-Success-depends-upon-the-man#:~:text=Manfred%20von%20Richthofen%20Quote%3A%20%E2%80%9CThe,man%20who%20sits%20in%20it.%E2%80%9D
Jungle! You and Lefty rocked it!
For my grad 1v1 day, we had some retired guy fly in a SU-29 (Russian aerobatic aircraft) and park it front row, center. I remember thinking to myself, “my goodness, I hope I don’t have to fight that thing!”
Great story Jungle. I hope that fleet bubba never lived that day down being beaten by an ‘orange and white’. 🤦🏼
I'm very happy to hear these former pilots talking. : ) . It has a fundamentals and essences and so many good lessons. I pray their experience won't become a lost technology.
It may very well with remotely piloted vehicles.
3:24 the grins😂
Sort of like fighting an F-18 with an OV-10. Not hard to keep him on your nose, but pretty hard to get close!
This is, easily, one of my Top 5 fighter stories EVER. And I've heard a LOT of them! Beating a Top Gun grad in an F-14 with a T-45 is nuts. Most viewers don't get just how f'd up that is. I'll have to rewatch the entire interview, but from what Jungle says here, he doesn't sound like he had the best hands or smoothest stick. He was just the most current BFM pilot in the world at that time, and that's what counted. In other words, he would have beat Snort in a F-14 with Jungle in a T-45 if Snort hadn't been flying BFM for a while. If THAT is true, that's wild. And it suggests that super-maneuverability, -9Xs, etc. are all nice. But what you really need is more time in the seat. And that's a lesson that has major implications for training and budgets. My guess is he's right. And the success of the Gorillas in GW1 back that up (to some extent, they did get favorable tasking too). Simple story, and maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I see deep lessons.
Aim-9x may not let a mediocre pilot take down another fighter who's at his sharpest, but it will let him take down all of the other mediocre pilots.
I watched the entire interview, which was great, and I believe Jungle was being incredibly modest about his abilities.
" Talk to me Goose'
🤦🏻♂
Okay, you beat fleet fighters in a trainer.
HOW exactly did that come about?
Order of importance. Mindset, tactics, skill and then gear.
Beating students in the RAG - kind of a silly story! Sure, if competition is the goal, as an FRS instructor you can beat every RAG student. But a fighter pilot that makes his ‘reputation’ clubbing baby seals is an egotistical ass. And as a RAG instructor I often put myself in a losing position, for training the student - the actual job! The grad 1v1 story, ok. Mine was against an F-16N. But I can see a T45 surprising someone once, but not three times? Does the pilot matter - absolutely! As a nugget in the first Marine east coast hornet squadron, we deployed to Oceana in February 1986 for dissimilar work against the Tomcats. My second dissimilar work, my first was against F4s in Beaufort. On day one, we briefed in mass and meet at a cap for a 1v1. My adversary was Snort Snodgrass. He was first on cap, had dumped down to bingo + little. Using landing flaps, he reversed 1 circle, into an aggressive position fight, intimated the hell out of me and dragged me into his phone booth. He told this story often and it’s true. He gunned me in ~ 360 degrees of turn then bingo’ed home. Never debriefed. This wasn’t my finest hour, but as I was buying drinks in the club that night, a RIO from his squadron, with his finger in my chest, explained the fight to me. I’m ok admitting this fight and I was out piloted. But it was 1,000s of hours vs. hundreds. So I learned and got better. OBTW, if you listen to Snort’s account, I was a TopGun grad and squadron training officer - NOT TRUE. I was four months out of the RAG. Nasty Mueller, our real training officer, soundly kicked Snorts butt days later, and on TACTS for all to see. Not a story Snort shared (rest in peace). Jungle is spot on when it comes to currency. Judging all your opponents variables (A/S, AOA, current and potential energy state, crossing angles and rates, etc…) and soundly employing the same in your jet, is very perishable! But there is no former or present fighter pilot listening to the story, that doesn’t think the F14 TopGun student, who lost three fights to a T-45 is a complete and utter buffoon!
It's only a fair fight if you win. Full stop
To me this isn't the shock it seems. hawks/T45s don't have a ton of thrust (5000lb >> 6,500lb depending on engine model), so you don't want an energy fight. But its a -4G / + 8G plane, and almost all real dogfights are subsonic. You'd need at least a neutral start, and you'd need to know the strength/weakness areas - but not a shock in it being a handful.
It's a big shock. Listen to him talk about how long it takes to regain altitude. Yes, it's not a crop duster or B-52, but it's not remotely in the league of an F-14 flown by a Top Gun grad. Especially a -B or -D. Even an -A can get a lot of thrust at lower altitude. It's pretty wild. If you doubt my word, take Jungle's when he said it was two impossible ideas- him losing with all his experience and him winning in a T-45.
@@davidsmith8997 Hawks contrary to statement - have been, and are tactical aircraft. Sq100 in the UK used them as aggressor aircraft. Type100 and 200 series are combat planes.
To be clear, in a thrust, or race to height contest - which would be silly, are no contest wins for planes like the F14. But if I understand the idea - it was to knife fight/phone booth the students.
During service delivery to the RAF - Previous hunter pilots did not want the hawk initially. But when you go digging you find interesting realities. The Hawk has low induced drag. It can operate - even with its limited thrust in a way where subsonic high G is sustained (The pilot will hit 'tired' well before the plane does) and it can do this until the fuel runs out.
If you are 20 miles out in an F14 and you have the sparrows, 54s, and aim9s - then the Hawk doesn't even make the merge. But if you are in merge at the same altitude and in phone box with a T45 you are not easily outflying it. You can run, you can climb and in both cases go away and come back on your terms - but if you stay in the phone booth, that won't be a picnick.
I did a follow up and the T45 is heavier, now has an uprated engine (He said 3000lb, but I think he is very wrong on that) - its G limits are -3 and + 7.7, and its thrust to weight is 0.41
Anyhoos..
@@AdmV0rl0n Mover and Gonky just demonstrated this in a recent DCS video, at the merge Gonky was in the F-18 knife fighting Mover in a P-51 and Mover got the kill.
@@RG1001 I think people get really confused. Taking on slow movers - even if you have thrust and power - is almost its own area. Most dogfights in DACT quickly go subsonic - and most 'fighter' jets get very unhappy in that sub 300mph phone booth. Many are forced to use all their monster thrust to just stay in play. The real answer would be exit phone booth and just destroy via BVR weps.
Or take the fight to 50,000 ft. I suspect the pilot in the T45 is lulling the better plane/student into a low speed turning fight and really taking away the performance areas from the heavy fighters. 'I'm in an F14, I'm gonna out turn this guy!'.
The F14s IIRC were limited to 6.5G, so that 7.7G limit on the T45 already has a merge- vantage.
I am not saying the T45 is some kind of monster. Just that a well flown one is no joke and you'd want to specifically use your advantage areas and not fly in its envelope..
@@AdmV0rl0n Clearly, as Jungle did it, the T45 can beat an F-14. No one's arguing that. But, as you probably know, Top Gun was set up *specifically to solve the problem of how a jet with excess thrust (F-4) could beat tighter turning jets with less thrust (Mig-17s/19s)*. So beating a T45 shouldn't be a secret. Do NOT get low and slow, maintain energy and use the vertical. Especially if they only have 3K thrust in the US version. Same thing you'd want to do against an A-10. So the T45 SHOULD be a joke for a Top Gun F-14 pilot. Jungle somehow managed to sucker them into the one fight they would lose. That's the magic of this story. AND that he did it more than once!
Just so cool to listen to. I swear if I had perfect vision I would have been up there. I'm just a private pilot now but it's so fun to hear these guys laid back having fun.
Takes a lot more than just perfect vision but at least that would’ve given you the chance to try.
Your title to me is a little misleading. He said he never lost at the grad 1vs1 in the T-45. I don't recall him ever saying he "never lost a dogfight."
The point of a title is so you click on it, you gain more viewership of a variety of individuals by bending truths to a certain extent because it grabs more attention from those who are not as in tune with the the whole story!
There isn’t a lot of money in just straight tomcat videos, it is sad I know! But RUclips is a job :p
@@airbreadwich I don’t disagree, but it doesn’t really paint jungle in the best light and sort of makes him look like he has an inflated opinion of himself and his abilities
@@airbreadwich why do that to a fellow naval aviator is my question?
@@elnach3240 well he consented to being on a podcast and honestly I believe you are thinking that to in depth. It really is just a simple RUclips title, it isn’t that deep
He says "I never lost" here: ruclips.net/video/S8U44CmGNKA/видео.html
Title seemed fair to me.
Proof it is often not the plane not the pilots. 1948 Israeli war for independence. Israel recruits a bunch of Jewish WW2 pilots from the US. Many of them were aces. The only planes Israel can get are old German Bf-109s made in Czechoslovakia. One pilot called them "Messer-S@#t." The Arabs had new Spitfires. The IAF mercenary pilots blew the Arabs out of the sky because the Arabs had no real experience in Air to Air Combat. The Documentary is called "Above and Beyond."
Looks like he lost the hotdog fight, though.
You might do well to remember comments like that before social media would have left your jaw hurting.