I had Dr. Allison at Pittsburg Theological Seminary. He's a fascinating, and refreshing guy. He comes from a place of genuine faith and loves to think things through.
How much more could we appreciate theologians, politicians, men as a whole, if they presented or at least included the countrrarguments. Dale is great!🎉 Luv it🎉
Regarding 1:01:59, it's even compatible with the ancient Roman allegation that Jesus was a magician. Many of his pagan critics were fully willing to accept that the miracles happened, they just didn't think that meant that he was what Christians said he was. Modern-day occultists sometimes still claim Jesus as one of their own.
I really appreciate this challenging take, and I look forward to reading his book after watching this. It seems like the missing component for a lot of these parallels is the persecution that the early church faced because of their proclamation. It seems that the obvious reason why Stephen isn't included in Paul's list is because it was a vision and not an appearance. It seems that if it was common that tombs were robbed, then Mary would've been aware of that, and she would've concluded that and not that he rose from the dead. People that experience hallucinations of dead loved ones don't conclude that their loved ones actually returned to the land of the living.
@Jamie Ammons In an ancient superstitious context with resurrection beliefs and claims people were as skeptical about grief visions as they are today? People don’t jump to conclusions even when there are good natural explanations like grave robbery? Religious and irrational beliefs go away and don’t grow when persecuted? I find many believers put way too much emphasis on the rationality of human behavior that is unfortunately just naive.
Try to view hallucinations from the perspective of someone living 2000 years ago in a religious society where people talked about resurrections and they slaughtered goats and lambs multiple times a year as blood sacrifices to a god that everyone took for granted, instead of modern secular society where anything beyond "grandma saw grandpa's ghost for 5 minutes" immediately gets you sent to a doctor who tries to find out what's going on and how to get you back to normal.
@@Greyz174 As NT Wright has said, if you had a "vision" of someone in first century Israel, that guaranteed they were dead, not alive. The appearances were something else entirely.
This is a wonderful interview! Thank you!! Clearly, Prof. Allison's book is both comprehensive and creative in its treatment of this topic. It's already in my Amazon cart, and I very much look forward to reading it.
On one hand, that was an hour and a 1/2 of literally almost no substance and, on the other hand that was an hour and a 1/2 of what reality actually is in this matter from an evidential standpoint and far more honest than evangelical apologists.... If Jesus means anything he has to mean honesty
Allison's critique of argument from martyrdom is really interesting because he seems to be criticizing a bad version of it. In the Fate of the Apostles, a book by the apologist Sean McDowell, he makes it clear that the argument is only meant to prove that the apostles thoroughly believed that Jesus was risen from the dead so as to prove that they definitely weren't lying. He has also said that he wrote the book because he kept hearing people say that all the apostles were martyred, and he wanted to figure out how many of these claims actually had good evidence to support it. The argument from martyrdom also makes being mistaken much less likely due to the fact that they probably would have been having second guesses and stopped preaching after they started receiving push-back if they only had a weak hallucination.
It shows that they're not lying, but isn't there also the part where a bunch of people who have not a lot going for them and are personally dissatisfied with life have a drive to join a group of like minded people who all gather around a cohesive message about how life works and go into a cycle of affirming each other and doubling down on their beliefs to confirm them more and more? People larp their way into armageddon plenty, martyrdom is also appealing in certain situations, and "the establishment" persecuting you can just affirm your delusions more. I don't know if this fully explains it, but it's an important dimension, unless if people know something I don't that can totally dismiss this.
At approximately 14:30, he says there are perhaps group hallucinations but he seems to have a hard time finding them... I'm always puzzled when I hear this because the Marian apparitions are so numerous and so many hundreds and even thousands of people claim to see them in a group scenario I don't understand why people don't bring this up...🤔
Timothy and Lydia McGrew gave a very strong response recently to Allison's critique of arguments for the resurrection. I believe it was part of their discussion with Pat Flynn on his RUclips channel.
@@TheAnalyticChristian Excellent! It concerned me to see Dale Allison here. If you don't find a good number of substantial responses to him by the McGrews in their last appearance on Pat Flynn's channel, please let me know and I'll help find the right video. I value your channel highly, by the way!
@@TheAnalyticChristian First I should say that my knowledge of his work is very limited -- and that I haven't even watched your discussion with him! What I have run into about him has all seemed to be that he pushes against being confident that the resurrection really happened. And this hasn't seemed to be a matter of his cautioning fellow believers, in the interest of promoting the gospel, against using flawed arguments (as Lydia M. cautions about concerns about the minimal-facts argument). My impression has been of his not coming from a place of entirely orthodox Christian belief. Even if that is in fact true, I'm not saying that you necessarily shouldn't have such a person on your channel. It would all depend on how it was handled -- and as I say, I haven't watched your discussion with him. Thanks for asking. BTW, I'm going to be very constrained in my time online for the next several days, but I'll check back at this thread again eventually.
@@leemorrison9006 I watched the interview you mentioned on Pat Flynn’s channel and I enjoyed it and learned some things. There are definitely some points I would disagree with the McGrew’s on but I appreciated their interaction with Allison’s work.
If we assume for the sake of argument that Jesus was an extraterrestrial in human form, every aspect of his apparent death and subsequent resurrection could be explained without even assuming that God exists, that Jesus was God incarnate, or that it was even a miraculous event. Needless to say, this explanation would completely undermine the Christian resurrection narrative.
@@jhake67 Paul in the Acts of the Apostles claimed the tomb was empty, and Paul's creed implies the empty tomb. Paul claimed that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and then rose - this implies that Jesus' burial place was empty.
The legend about the resurrection of holy people in Matthew 27, I think, is best seen through the lenses of the 70 CE destruction of Jerusalem. It may be a city destroyed, but the dead rose and walked its streets before, and God will do it again - that's what I think Matthew is doing with this non-historical account.
Can you please name the two volume work on miracles that you mentioned here? Also, is this the only work of this sort, or are there other philosophers working on this specific issue of miracle claims across different religions
So, despite extrabiblical sources for the earthquake, this dude 2,000 years after the event just decides it didn't happen, but SOMETHING happened that split time from BC (before Christ) to AD (after Christ) and if many people left their tombs to go into Jerusalem, it would have meant that enough people saw the dead rise, even those who didn't see Christ with their own eyes would know the apostles were telling the truth, and they would have become committed Christians. The death and Resurrection of Jesus, and all the people He miraculously raised from the dead is the best explanation for the explosion and longevity of Christianity, despite centuries of brutal persecution. It shows how easily one silly man can deceive himself. Stand on the Word of God. Men are NOT Gods. The Bible is the Word of God.
Why do these "scholars" avoid the goofy story of the Ascension as an issue to be examined very carefully? Way, way too much presupposition in all this. Likely the whole thing was made up as The Wizard of Oz was created in modern times.
@@joshua_wherley A man rising up into the clouds? So you think heaven is up there, over our heads? How goofy can you get? In the first place who's to say that "heaven" is up there in the clouds above the mid-east? So what direction would Jesus have risen bodily if he had lived in North America? In the second place, what's with levitation? Why do the apologists avoid the subject altogether? Is the ascension any less interesting than the resurrection itself? It's all a lot of foo-foo, Best we all just get over all of it,
@@vgrof2315 I think Jesus went up as a reflection of God being the highest being in existence, thus it's only logical that Jesus would ascend. I do think it's less interesting than the Resurrection, honestly. If Jesus is raised from the dead by God, thus validating his supernatural claims about Himself, why is His being assumed into the heavens by levitating straight up be any more of a stretch?
@@vgrof2315 are we starting from the assumption that Jesus did not rise from the dead? I always figured that if Jesus is raised from the dead by God Himself, that's more impressive (for lack of a better term) than the Ascension. Basically, if the Resurrection is true, then the Ascension follows. Or are you saying apologists need to argue for the veracity of both as independent events? I guess I don't see why the Ascension needs to be proven if the Resurrection is true.
I had Dr. Allison at Pittsburg Theological Seminary. He's a fascinating, and refreshing guy. He comes from a place of genuine faith and loves to think things through.
I had him there too.
Amazing interview!! Dr. Dale Allison has such a unique perspective. It's really thoughtful and nuanced.
How much more could
we appreciate theologians, politicians, men as a whole, if they presented or at least included the countrrarguments. Dale is great!🎉 Luv it🎉
So great. Keep getting awesome guests like Allison
Regarding 1:01:59, it's even compatible with the ancient Roman allegation that Jesus was a magician. Many of his pagan critics were fully willing to accept that the miracles happened, they just didn't think that meant that he was what Christians said he was. Modern-day occultists sometimes still claim Jesus as one of their own.
I really appreciate this challenging take, and I look forward to reading his book after watching this.
It seems like the missing component for a lot of these parallels is the persecution that the early church faced because of their proclamation.
It seems that the obvious reason why Stephen isn't included in Paul's list is because it was a vision and not an appearance.
It seems that if it was common that tombs were robbed, then Mary would've been aware of that, and she would've concluded that and not that he rose from the dead. People that experience hallucinations of dead loved ones don't conclude that their loved ones actually returned to the land of the living.
@ISAI GARCIA Big fan of O'Connell's Argument
@Jamie Ammons
In an ancient superstitious context with resurrection beliefs and claims people were as skeptical about grief visions as they are today? People don’t jump to conclusions even when there are good natural explanations like grave robbery? Religious and irrational beliefs go away and don’t grow when persecuted?
I find many believers put way too much emphasis on the rationality of human behavior that is unfortunately just naive.
Yeah I would read his book and the section on visions of dead loved ones. People absolutely do think it is real sometimes and he talks about that.
Try to view hallucinations from the perspective of someone living 2000 years ago in a religious society where people talked about resurrections and they slaughtered goats and lambs multiple times a year as blood sacrifices to a god that everyone took for granted, instead of modern secular society where anything beyond "grandma saw grandpa's ghost for 5 minutes" immediately gets you sent to a doctor who tries to find out what's going on and how to get you back to normal.
@@Greyz174
As NT Wright has said, if you had a "vision" of someone in first century Israel, that guaranteed they were dead, not alive.
The appearances were something else entirely.
Great discussion. I appreciate the balance of Dr. Allison's approach.
This is a wonderful interview! Thank you!! Clearly, Prof. Allison's book is both comprehensive and creative in its treatment of this topic. It's already in my Amazon cart, and I very much look forward to reading it.
Dr. Allison's honesty is refreshing, and unfortunately unusual
On one hand, that was an hour and a 1/2 of literally almost no substance and, on the other hand that was an hour and a 1/2 of what reality actually is in this matter from an evidential standpoint and far more honest than evangelical apologists....
If Jesus means anything he has to mean honesty
Really nice interview, and it was good to get introduced to Allison's thought.
Allison's critique of argument from martyrdom is really interesting because he seems to be criticizing a bad version of it. In the Fate of the Apostles, a book by the apologist Sean McDowell, he makes it clear that the argument is only meant to prove that the apostles thoroughly believed that Jesus was risen from the dead so as to prove that they definitely weren't lying. He has also said that he wrote the book because he kept hearing people say that all the apostles were martyred, and he wanted to figure out how many of these claims actually had good evidence to support it. The argument from martyrdom also makes being mistaken much less likely due to the fact that they probably would have been having second guesses and stopped preaching after they started receiving push-back if they only had a weak hallucination.
It shows that they're not lying, but isn't there also the part where a bunch of people who have not a lot going for them and are personally dissatisfied with life have a drive to join a group of like minded people who all gather around a cohesive message about how life works and go into a cycle of affirming each other and doubling down on their beliefs to confirm them more and more?
People larp their way into armageddon plenty, martyrdom is also appealing in certain situations, and "the establishment" persecuting you can just affirm your delusions more.
I don't know if this fully explains it, but it's an important dimension, unless if people know something I don't that can totally dismiss this.
I'll definitely be reading this book.
At approximately 14:30, he says there are perhaps group hallucinations but he seems to have a hard time finding them...
I'm always puzzled when I hear this because the Marian apparitions are so numerous and so many hundreds and even thousands of people claim to see them in a group scenario
I don't understand why people don't bring this up...🤔
ACTUALLLLLLLLY
I am pretty sure he brought that up somewhere
Fascinating interview. I will get Allison's book at some point in the future.
Dale, you are an absolute legend
I resonate with Dale so so much. I wish he was my friend.
Timothy and Lydia McGrew gave a very strong response recently to Allison's critique of arguments for the resurrection. I believe it was part of their discussion with Pat Flynn on his RUclips channel.
Thanks. I’ll check it out!
@@TheAnalyticChristian Excellent! It concerned me to see Dale Allison here. If you don't find a good number of substantial responses to him by the McGrews in their last appearance on Pat Flynn's channel, please let me know and I'll help find the right video. I value your channel highly, by the way!
@@leemorrison9006 why do you find it concerning to see Dale Allison here?
@@TheAnalyticChristian First I should say that my knowledge of his work is very limited -- and that I haven't even watched your discussion with him! What I have run into about him has all seemed to be that he pushes against being confident that the resurrection really happened. And this hasn't seemed to be a matter of his cautioning fellow believers, in the interest of promoting the gospel, against using flawed arguments (as Lydia M. cautions about concerns about the minimal-facts argument). My impression has been of his not coming from a place of entirely orthodox Christian belief. Even if that is in fact true, I'm not saying that you necessarily shouldn't have such a person on your channel. It would all depend on how it was handled -- and as I say, I haven't watched your discussion with him. Thanks for asking. BTW, I'm going to be very constrained in my time online for the next several days, but I'll check back at this thread again eventually.
@@leemorrison9006 I watched the interview you mentioned on Pat Flynn’s channel and I enjoyed it and learned some things. There are definitely some points I would disagree with the McGrew’s on but I appreciated their interaction with Allison’s work.
Sometimes.., some things are better left unexplained!
If we assume for the sake of argument that Jesus was an extraterrestrial in human form, every aspect of his apparent death and subsequent resurrection could be explained without even assuming that God exists, that Jesus was God incarnate, or that it was even a miraculous event. Needless to say, this explanation would completely undermine the Christian resurrection narrative.
There should be no argument at all amongst Christians regarding the resurrection. Paul made it clear to us in 1 Corinthians 15th chapter.
Paul never said anything about an empty tomb
@@jhake67 Paul in the Acts of the Apostles claimed the tomb was empty, and Paul's creed implies the empty tomb. Paul claimed that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and then rose - this implies that Jesus' burial place was empty.
The legend about the resurrection of holy people in Matthew 27, I think, is best seen through the lenses of the 70 CE destruction of Jerusalem. It may be a city destroyed, but the dead rose and walked its streets before, and God will do it again - that's what I think Matthew is doing with this non-historical account.
How is it possibile to contact you in order to submit ideas for future videos
You could leave a comment here
@@TheAnalyticChristian This would be interesting to discuss: www.jstor.org/stable/20005329
@@TheAnalyticChristian
How about the ascencion?
Can you please name the two volume work on miracles that you mentioned here? Also, is this the only work of this sort, or are there other philosophers working on this specific issue of miracle claims across different religions
Craig Keener wrote a 2 volume work on miracles, and recently published a condensed version for laymen called Miracles Today
So, despite extrabiblical sources for the earthquake, this dude 2,000 years after the event just decides it didn't happen, but SOMETHING happened that split time from BC (before Christ) to AD (after Christ) and if many people left their tombs to go into Jerusalem, it would have meant that enough people saw the dead rise, even those who didn't see Christ with their own eyes would know the apostles were telling the truth, and they would have become committed Christians. The death and Resurrection of Jesus, and all the people He miraculously raised from the dead is the best explanation for the explosion and longevity of Christianity, despite centuries of brutal persecution. It shows how easily one silly man can deceive himself. Stand on the Word of God. Men are NOT Gods. The Bible is the Word of God.
Perhapsa we should read Gary Habermas. More reliable, in my opinion.
Why would I pay $70 for this book?
Because it's cheaper than $74.95 ?
No
Why do these "scholars" avoid the goofy story of the Ascension as an issue to be examined very carefully?
Way, way too much presupposition in all this. Likely the whole thing was made up as The Wizard of Oz was created in modern times.
What's "goofy" about it?
@@joshua_wherley A man rising up into the clouds? So you think heaven is up there, over our heads? How goofy can you get?
In the first place who's to say that "heaven" is up there in the clouds above the mid-east? So what direction would Jesus have risen bodily if he had lived in North America? In the second place, what's with levitation? Why do the apologists avoid the subject altogether? Is the ascension any less interesting than the resurrection itself? It's all a lot of foo-foo, Best we all just get over all of it,
@@vgrof2315 I think Jesus went up as a reflection of God being the highest being in existence, thus it's only logical that Jesus would ascend. I do think it's less interesting than the Resurrection, honestly. If Jesus is raised from the dead by God, thus validating his supernatural claims about Himself, why is His being assumed into the heavens by levitating straight up be any more of a stretch?
@@joshua_wherleyIf you can't see how silly all of that is, I feel bad for you. Carry on.
@@vgrof2315 are we starting from the assumption that Jesus did not rise from the dead? I always figured that if Jesus is raised from the dead by God Himself, that's more impressive (for lack of a better term) than the Ascension. Basically, if the Resurrection is true, then the Ascension follows. Or are you saying apologists need to argue for the veracity of both as independent events? I guess I don't see why the Ascension needs to be proven if the Resurrection is true.