Something I have been thinking about. The Primus is the only one who actually knew the Jailor's reasons for doing what he did, the cut scene shows that he questioned him about them, but the Primus never once felt the need to share that knowledge with us. We also know that the Primus was fully dedicated to stopping the Jailer despite knowing his reasons. Which calls into question weather the Jailor's reasons were just that bad, or they were just that inconvenient for the Primus. Think on this for a moment, the Primus was originally intended to be the Jailor. You can still find imagines of his earlier designs that confirm this. For whatever reason this was scrapped, which likely means they have other plans for him, and this is super out of left field but the Primus was recently printed in the most recent Hearthstone set called TITANS, which is a set that added the Titans as playable cards with their own keyword ability called Titan. Guess what keyword the Primus has? That is right, he is a Titan, one of only two characters to receive the Titan keyword that aren't canonically of the Titan race.
Turns out Sargeras and Illidan are buds in the Last Titan that would be a great twist. During the time when all of them are imprisoned he learns some dangerous truths that force them to ally and he's able to make Sargeras believe we are worth saving and working with
Hahahahah im gonna crack up hard if thats turn out to be the case 🤣🤣🤣 Illidan is a fan or unorthodox methods in order to achiev the "greater goal" so they sure have common ground hahahahaha
@@ZavhallaTV They really do, and just how we initially thought Illidan was a bad guy....We may find out Sargeras was actually trying to release the planet or something (I failed but I have to give her a chance to be free) maybe the efforts of the player inspired him in the last moment to trust in mortals
Ever since the end of legion, I have imagined the red star opening a portal again and sargeras stepping out, to go lift his sword, with illidan on his shoulder
About the idea that light is link to time, I remember the quest to unlock the Mag'har Orc as a allied race, you got during the chain quests : "Tyranny of the Light" where the "rebel" Orcs flee the army of the light lead by Yrel and a Naaru, and they use powerful spell that stop time for the rebels (for etenity?) So yeah, they do entagled...
When Fyrakk's Prison is about to burst it literally just looks like Azeroth in the Cinematic, because it bursts in fire and the blue lightning is dancing across the exploding prison barrier.
Chromie speaking like an infinite when she tells Nozdormu how she's stop at nothing to find a way to save him was pretty good still, even if it didn't pay off quite as well as I hoped.
@@TheFamilyLedger for context...last year they canonically made Chromie a male dragon who chose a female form "because it suited them" I assume that's what is being referenced. Honestly was a pretty dumb twist. The logic behind choosing a Gnome with the type of persona......was great tho. To live as the smallest filled with wanderlust
@@LieutenantAlaki you very well may be onto something because Chronormu would be a masculine Dragonic name. Chronixia, Chronistra just don't sound as good
When you slowed down the prison breaking at 41:45, it reminded me of The War Within when Azeroth was "speaking" to Anduin and Thrall. Same flare ups in a prison.
25:06 Hey Pyro. I wanted to remind you of the in-game talent from the Discipline Priest tree, "borrowed time." What does a priest do? They use the light and shadow. What does a Disc priest do? They balance between them and shift back and forth. What else can a priest do? Dominate minds.
Pyro, welcome back to WoW. I'm in the same boat as you my friend, just recently resubbed and preordered the next expac. I took a long hiatus and started playing FFXIV just a few months before you had your infamous meltdown and trip to Eorzea. I just wanted to say that I'm immensely proud of how far you've come and how much you've grown in the last few years with your ending sentiments towards Steve. I think we all LOVE world of warcraft and the lore around it, and we have to remember that there are people on the other end of everything at the end of the day. We can not like their work, and not like their decisions but it's important to remember that they are TRYING to do what they think is the best thing at the time. I couldn't imagine trying to work in those offices with all the higher up people leaving and all the allegations swirling. That being said, I couldn't be more excited to have Chris back and see him finishing the stories he started so long ago. See you around my dude!
Makes me sad to see comments like "I'm happy that Pyromancer is back." Just why can't you support your creator doesn't matter what they play FFXIV, Outer wilds, etc. He never went away. He has been here for a while now.
I don't think it's disrespectful to not watch content that people are not interested in. I for one never played final fantasy, so while I'm sure he did just as good, it didn't hit for me personally. Having him "back" talking about a topic I do know a lot about is exciting though. He's the best lore analyst out there. It's like Jordan coming out of retirement. No malicious intent.
I'm not Pyro's para social buddy, I'm here because I'm interested in Warcraft lore. So when he is not talking about that, I'm watching someone else who is talking about that. And yes, I am glad Pyro's back because he is one of the best at it.
@@Brandon-rl7pv yeah it's not disrespectful just that the general vibe from reading the posts as if he hasnt done any content since having the epic gamer moment back in tail end Shadowlands.
They won't deal with the titans, I find it far more likely that they ended up banding together in order to survive. Did Illidan get Aman'thul's permission to stay and join the fight? How does he feel about Illidan forsaking his fate as light bound? Seems like things that might make him.....an error that needs correction
@@Dreyden- no my point was. Illidan jumped in on his own. No TITAN wants him there. Both he and Sargeras are corrupted by fel/chaos the direct opposite of order. They will team up against the titans....because yes order=no free will
At 12:24 Alexstrasza says, "..brother?" In her daze/confusion she mistook Wrathion for Neltharion. They used to fight the other proto-drakes back in the day together. Thought that was interesting. Edit: Oh looks like she actually did say "wrathion". Pity, it would've been cool if they had done what I thought.
Two thoughts for you! 1. "You betrayed the world that gave us life"... by obeying the Titans. I'm surprised you didn't react to this line that 100% supports the "Azeroth imprisoned" theory. 2. You got me thinking during the WW preview... could the Crystal underground that acts as their sun be Elune's prison? Is that why she never appears in person, even though she's the Winter Queen's sister?
Personally I think it's that they're referring to the elements and elementals, as Proto-drakes and dragons were the among the only elementals not imprisoned by the Titans.
Have you seen SL video, especially when that horrendous winter queen nonsense campaign happened? Elune literally shows up so that prison theory is a bit hard to accept. Then again these guys have been all over the place.
some of those people he shit on were probably some who help bailed him out when he was going through his living situation. dudes just a rage baby@@ZakhadWOW
The warcraft 3 cinematic of Illidan breaking out of his prison implies he was there willingly and could have freed himself at any time, unless it was retconned, or I just misinterpreted what was happening.
Blue dragonflight storyline is one of the best in game playable storylines wow ever had, It felt like a single player experience, and it made me care about characters.
I feel like it will turn out that none of the Titans were "right" to do whatever they've been doing, but Sargeras will be the closest to "right". Kinda seems like Eonar and Aman'thul are assholes.
“RISEEEE ARGUUUUS” damn that was cool,in that scene. Legion is so fuckin cool aaaaa. And the MUSIC🔥🔥🔥 and Illidan voice acting,spectacular!!!!!!!! THE BEST cinematic in the entire game,and Rejection of The Gift was equally glorious. Oh my god I gotta go spam every Warcraft dev and cinematic director on Twitter to REMIND THEM OF WHAT EPIC MEANS !!!! FUCK CHROMIE DEAR GOD,DISNEYFLIGHT
Bronze Dragons are tasked with *maintaining* this 'True Timeline' via their version of Time magic. The Infinites' goal is *changing* time with their version of Time magic. Bronze's looks awfully *bright*, while Infinite's looks awfully *dark*. Hmm...
I think Illidan with speak with Sargeras, and find that we have fought on the wrong side. The Titans are using powers they should not possess, and Sargeras found out about it, so the Pantheon changed history to make him look like the instigator of the Burning Crusade for a Twisted pupose, yet I think Sargeras' purpose of the Burning Crusade is to wipe out all of the TITANS Creations, NOT all of creation. I think Azeroth is very important to Sargeras, and we may know why soon.
What if Elune is in the middle of Azeroth too. Maybe that’s the voice. The book in 10.2 talks of Elune and eonar being in love and Elune gifting a branch of the mother world tree
@@goofygoofy627 Zovaal's position is pretty clear. He sees the whole reality/mortal thing as a giant and dangerous waste of energy. Like being in a world of hunger and someone wastes all the food on millions of pets.
@@miriamweller812 Yeah but Zovaal's character refrences the soul of the world being wounded and full of potential he gathered everything he needed to reshape reality and we killed him anyways then warns of something to come just feel like they'd add that in a future patch or expansion explaining all of that or having a conclusion to his warning as he turns back into a robot he says a cosmo divided will not survive what is to come
when pyro said azeroth is in stasis it reminded me of when wrathion ate the heart of lei shen. “we have fallen. we must rebuild the final titan.” interesting that he said “rebuild” instead of literally anything else, makes me wonder what else they did to azeroth.
47:25 "Every living thing that's from the twisting nether is considered a Demon" That sparked a thought in me. If denizens of the twisting nether are all demons, and the primary characteristic of Demons are domination through power, and total destruction through Fel. Does that mean that Argus' non-dominated/ordered state IS Chaos/Fel? I'd imagine that Argus being the Titan of the realm of the twisting nether would share in that characteristic. Which would very clearly delineate Chaos/Fel as Total Destruction as it's been stated.
hey pyro, great video, i discovered your channel recently and already sunked in the wow speculations, hahahhaah amazing! One thing that i pondered watching again this video, Nozdormu is afraid of becoming Moruzond, ok, we know that, but, big but here, if that sentiment of him being afraid is something related to de control magic of the titans, and Moruzond is a form of him free of the Order, and the Infinite Dragonflight are a branch of the time dragons that saw what the titans did and are trying to revert this situation. Just a speculation, but something that came to mind watching. BTW, great content, sticking to see what is in the future.
Okay with them use what appears to be the domination magic runes, small parts of shadowlands are being safely scrounged and somehow relevant. I appreciate that. It was Argus's dead Titan soul going to the Shadowland that shutdown the soul sorting factory that was Oribos to begin with. Hmmm. >_> I mean I'm not sure I'm just seeing pattern where there are none of if I'm actually just really hyped about the new WoW expansion.
Funny enough, your ideas of the Titans putting those who don't comply into stasis, what did the AU draenor light army do? Oh yeah crystal stasis. Think you are on the right track.
Illidan in TBC - tries to save Azeroth - > we fucked it up Sargeras - tries to save Azeroth -> we fucked it up Garrosh - tries to save all the orcs (in his own way, but still) - we fucked it up... twice... I've said it before and i'll say it again - we are the baddies. Stop grinding world quests and raid bosses sheeple, sit afk or ERP in goldshire if you really want to "save the world"
So, I'm really happy to see you nerding out over WoW lore again. Don't get wrong, ffxiv is great and I'm a big fan of rpg from japan but their stories have a different kind of spirituality and cultural basis (Shintoism and whatnot). WoW lore is of a different zeitgeist. Inspired by Tolkien and Michael Moorcock. As well as ancient mythology from what big archeology in the west considers the bed of civilization. The kind of stories told from this point of view are very enjoyable when looking at the massive overall lore. While japanese games are great for me to connect with one on one where I challenge the very meanings of existence with empathy and release... and a little bit of killing god randomly as an ultimate test of our resolve. I'm actually really curious to see how WoW will tackle the act of fighting gods. The idea that the children of Azeroth is starting to hear her is a sign that we're about to get pretty spiritual, but I hope they can keep some of the intensity of war. (Though I will admit that kind of fighting does go against the gnostic notion of any reason to fight a god, which is freedom). /autisticramble
@Pyromancer, doubt you will read or see this, and I have been siting on this for a while, please take this as a what if scenario as it is meant to be as there is little proof to back it, just is an interesting thought. What if the Old Gods were really spawned from the nightmare, which in of itself was a counter from Azeroth to the Dream, which when got yanked out why it almost 'destroyed' it they meant the prison not Azeroth. Dunno just a fun though since All the names tie to the same lovecraftian lore, and there are dream elements a lot of the time. Food for thought.
Bit surprised to see an actual decent take on Danuser, honestly, good on you for reconsidering things after time passed. A lot of people still don't - it truly feels like a lot of WoW players just *want* someone to be mad about, and won't consider any other factors - or that you can be critical of someone's skills without criticising them as a person. Relatedly, one of the comments in the chat toward the end: "Where do you think Danuser is in all this? He can't be happy being subservient to Metzen" This is kinda what I'm talking about. I don't think this commenter meant it specifically, but there ARE people who see Danuser as some arrogant, micro-managing individual who would chafe under Metzen's leash, but every developer interview we've had, and even every insider comment to content creators, suggests that, one, Metzen isn't controlling anyone, and two, that Ion, Metzen and Danuser have a lot of fun discussing lore direction going forward. Far from Danuser being upset that Metzen is back, which feels like a position you could only arrive at if you've already got in your head that Danuser is a toxic person as well as a bad writer (some people even accuse him and other writers of 'hating' Warcraft's story, which lmao), Danuser more than likely geeks out at getting to talk to Chris Motherfucking Metzen about the lore and hashing out his ideas along with Chris's, and finding a good path that merges both their viewpoints. It really is sad to me that so many in the community just... ignore things to feed into their own predetermined views on the story. The idea that the writers hate the Warcraft story is laughable, we all heard how bad Blizzard has been to actually work at historically, and people thing someone would specifically apply to work someone with a history of underpayment even before the scandals went public, to work on an IP they at best don't care about and at worst hate, purely as some kind of conspiracy to ruin it? Nah, man, most of the writers and historians there are completely WoW lore nuts who *obsessed* over the story more than most players did, and got into the teams on that passion. Some of them simply weren't up to the task of actually writing the lore, or presenting it in-game well enough. Too many people just make stuff up to malign the developers - and then they mock the developers if they try to address the "the devs don't care/hate the game" with commenting that the team had fun creating the stuff. It's damn sad. Literally a no-win scenario if you're a writer for WoW. Even if you're not up to the task, it's hard to imagine many people feeling the need to improve when they know no matter what they do thousands of people will overlook any positives and blow any negatives out of propotion.
Maybe if you paid attention to what steve said about the past lore, you would understand where those ppl are coming from. Just look at what happened with Arthas, a very memorable part of wow lore. Change is fine but not the entire overhaul of everything we've come to know. In their quest to expand the lore, they've blurred everything that we've known. They could have gone to great dark beyond for continuation of the lore. You need to see what the other side is saying. Obviously, there are those who take it too far, but that goes for both sides.
@@bastalam I do see the other side, and I know where people are coming from, but there's a big difference between "the story is going downhill and isn't consistent with the past lore" and "the current writers hate the lore/want to rewrite everything Just Because/are arrogant and think they know better". I can see what the other side is saying just fine, but I can't see the line between how they feel about the story and "man, Danuser must be pissed that Metzen's back to rein him in". I would not at all be surprised if Danuser was one of the people asking if he wanted to come back - every writer there respects Metzen as much as any player, perhaps even moreso considering they made a career out of following him. As you say, there are people on both sides who take it too far, but the loudest seem to be people who don't actually care to be fair and just want to hate on things. Even this latest interview... a developer said they look at Disney as a model *specifically about building franchises with multi-year stories* and there are plenty of people who somehow took it to mean the lore is going to be more kid friendly and emotional and essentially be Disney movies, when that's not what was said. It's very hard to treat people's views in good faith when they refuse to do so themselves.
@TaliesinMyrddin glad you see both sides. To be perfectly honest, I didn't see that QA and wasn't aware until you told me. I, too, am worried but I'll wait and see how things play out. My issue is with constant lore changes. I can't connect with the lore when I know down the line it'll be changed, so it doesn't matter what is said now. You have to remember that when chronicles was released, it was supposed to tie in the plotholes and present one clear lore. SL changed that and we were told it was written from the titan perspective. This was never the case when chronicles came out so you know it was something made up to tie in any new thing to expand the lore. I have no issue with change. For example pre legion there was no mention of argus and in the comics there is another titan that was introduced. Those changes can be added in no issue but why must the previous lore be butchered for the new? Personally, I'm against this Titan=malevolent talk. SL had already introduced the first ones and we should have continued on that plot and expanded it further by going to the great dark beyond. The durust and that inter-dimentional race in zerith mortis and other plots released in SL arguably primus being the biggest missed opportunity of that expac. There was enough to go on instead of destroying another pillar of the previous lore. I agree it's a personal opinion, but my point is that these changes to pre-established lore can and will break the connection ppl have to the story cause there is no constant they can anchor to.
@@bastalam I can get that. I personally love the titans-may-not-be-totally-benevolent thing they're doing now cuz in my eyes it doesn't really contradict past lore, it just confirms some older theories based on vague things, but I definitely understand how changing lore can lead to a lack of connection. I'm not enjoying Tears of the Kingdom much as I play through it because it feels like (as far as I've played, at least) it ignores most of the established timeline and just does whatever it wants for the relatively barebones story, and after Skyward Sword set up some really fun stuff BotW and Tears went in a direction that has me questioning whether I'm still a Zelda fan anymore, primarily because it feels a lot harder to care about the timeline when Nintendo doesn't seem to. So it'd be hypocritical of me to act like people feeling that way about Warcraft lore are dramatic or misinformed or anything like that. And while I like the idea of Chronicle being more of a perspective than a solid 'this is what happened' bible - and I do - I do also agree that it was pretty BS to initially market it as an out-of-universe canon reference to the history of Azeroth and then turn around and say it was essentially written by in-universe characters and may be coloured by their biases. I think if they had sold it as "this is how the titans see the universe" I'd have enjoyed it just as much, but it definitely was the wrong move to lead players to think one thing and then completely change the meaning of that book as opposed to working around it in a more natural and subtle long-term way. My hope is that they continue on the current track a lot more consistently with Metzen back and a solid, committed three-expansion story to tell, but I know it's a direction some older players might not love, and I sympathise with them for that
@TaliesinMyrddin I hope so, too. Just to be clear, I knew the Titans were not completely benevolent beings. To me, they were just portrayed as space scientists obsessed with ordering and shaping worlds, taking special interest in planets with their own kind in it. Beings that were morally centrally aligned. Not completely malevolent or benevolent. We've had a taste of the black empire in cata and then bfa. Honestly, I prefer Titan order over it any time. I also understood why they set up planet-wide wipe due to that corruption. Life would continue after wipe via emerald dream CC. This all made them unique in a world where a side on the moral compass had to be picked. Now, though, it seems that uniqueness is gone. Again, I'm not against change, but some old establishment lore must remain constant, especially when it was presented that way years ago for the audience to remain connected and invested in the story.
So, what if the titans found the strongest world soul, did a bunch of experiments on it, and clearly don't want to wake it up as it would know they did this to it and again, is the strongest one. Also, the worrisome title I've always felt was "Life BINDER" not lifegiver or savior of life, life mother, etc. Life BINDER. Argus was clearly under someone's control and was elated in his freedom in death. Aman claims to have killed the greatest old God and couldn't kill the rest, so they were imprisoned... but he didn't. Not only did the only one he killed not actually die, its influence, will, and even body all remained on azeroth to continue doing his will. The titans clearly CAN'T get rid of the old gods. Also I think the old gods each represent a body part of some greater being that has some significance. C'thun is an eye, yogg is just mouths, N'zoth despite having eyes is very much a brain. Always felt like there was a thread there.
Argus wasn't always in the Twisting Nether. As with all planets, Argus was in the Great Dark Beyond, which for all intents and purposes is the realm of Order, and when the eredar joined the Burning Legion, Argus was drawn into the Twisting Nether and altered by Disorder. The true original demons do not have a home "world" and were born in the pool of energy that is the Twisting Nether. Then there are the mortal races that turned to Disorder, like the man'ari and nathrezim, who had their homeworlds drawn into the Nether when they were utterly consumed by fel magic. The Nether itself does not have any physical manifestation, and all of the physical sites within the Nether that we know were pieces of the Great Dark Beyond, and possibly other realms, that were pulled into the Nether when its nascent energies seeped into other realms.
Honestly Chromie would've been better as a human child. Have her character age and evolve, slowly losing faith in their path and caring more about the present rather than the timeline. We meet her as a little child who does her stuff, by now she could be a rebellious teen dragon similar to Wrathion. Heck, then Wrathion could actually have a Dragon in the cast that he might be able to bounce off of. One child with alot to lose and another with alot to prove. Both forced to grow up far faster than Dragons normally do.
I always wonder about what Sargeras says right before Argus appears. „That which you have stolen, will be your undoing.“ so…did the titans stole a part from Azeroth which is then manifested in Argus and then later given back through Sargeras‘ sword piercing the planet?
THEORY! orderning magic is domination magic. domination magic is actually a twisting of ordening magic. why? because i am not willing to give the jailer any credit for anything. also the first ones maybe where the first generation of immortals and got overthrown by the titans and the eternals. maybe elune has something to do with the first ones
@Pyromancer Sorry Pyro, but what are you talking about: Vyranoth did NOT betray the Incarnates; actually Fyraak betrayd the others, if you have played the story and actually listen to what it's about. Fyraak wants to corrupt the world tree, that's not something the other Incarnated wanted; the Incarnates want to free azeroth from the titans, not corrupting it. Vyranoth wants to protect the dragons, something the others actually wants too more or less while Fyraak wants to have power over everything else. But i am sure she will help her brother if necessary.
Isnt it possible to reach azeroth through the wound where Yshaarj was torn from the planet? Her blood surged from the wound, afterall the wound became the well of eternity which later became the Maelstrom which leads us down the deepholm I wonder how far deeper it goes. Edit: expanding on that idea, if the heart of yshaarj survived all these millenia - surely the main body that was rooted into the world itself should still be there if not dormant (that we know of) and perhaps his corpse is also an avenue of entry
Watching this... we're fucking Kadgar Personnal army since Wrath, maybe Wrath is a stretch I would have to check his status with the Kirin Tor a that moment. But WoD for sure is like directly him being like guys come here.
![The War Within - First Chapter - Full Version [Lore]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SwbS1HvKm6I/mqdefault.jpg)
![The War Within - First Chapter - Full Version [Lore]](/img/tr.png)
I'm so happy to see Pyro going through wow lore again... this guy has so many good takes on what could possibly be going on in the universe of WoW.
Kinda yes but i hope he has his mind back without freaking out nonstop and shittalking his viewers ngl
Something I have been thinking about. The Primus is the only one who actually knew the Jailor's reasons for doing what he did, the cut scene shows that he questioned him about them, but the Primus never once felt the need to share that knowledge with us. We also know that the Primus was fully dedicated to stopping the Jailer despite knowing his reasons. Which calls into question weather the Jailor's reasons were just that bad, or they were just that inconvenient for the Primus.
Think on this for a moment, the Primus was originally intended to be the Jailor. You can still find imagines of his earlier designs that confirm this. For whatever reason this was scrapped, which likely means they have other plans for him, and this is super out of left field but the Primus was recently printed in the most recent Hearthstone set called TITANS, which is a set that added the Titans as playable cards with their own keyword ability called Titan. Guess what keyword the Primus has? That is right, he is a Titan, one of only two characters to receive the Titan keyword that aren't canonically of the Titan race.
Turns out Sargeras and Illidan are buds in the Last Titan that would be a great twist. During the time when all of them are imprisoned he learns some dangerous truths that force them to ally and he's able to make Sargeras believe we are worth saving and working with
Hahahahah im gonna crack up hard if thats turn out to be the case 🤣🤣🤣
Illidan is a fan or unorthodox methods in order to achiev the "greater goal" so they sure have common ground hahahahaha
@@ZavhallaTV They really do, and just how we initially thought Illidan was a bad guy....We may find out Sargeras was actually trying to release the planet or something (I failed but I have to give her a chance to be free) maybe the efforts of the player inspired him in the last moment to trust in mortals
Illidan's: "I call him *Better Malfurion*."
Sargeras: :]
Ever since the end of legion, I have imagined the red star opening a portal again and sargeras stepping out, to go lift his sword, with illidan on his shoulder
About the idea that light is link to time, I remember the quest to unlock the Mag'har Orc as a allied race, you got during the chain quests : "Tyranny of the Light" where the "rebel" Orcs flee the army of the light lead by Yrel and a Naaru, and they use powerful spell that stop time for the rebels (for etenity?)
So yeah, they do entagled...
Awesome to still see you passionate about WoW lore been watching you for a couple year Pyro keep up the good work :D
im so happy that you have found joy in WoW again! I have always enjoyed your break downs and theory crafting when it comes to the lore!
When Fyrakk's Prison is about to burst it literally just looks like Azeroth in the Cinematic, because it bursts in fire and the blue lightning is dancing across the exploding prison barrier.
I wanted to say that hahaha
Chromie speaking like an infinite when she tells Nozdormu how she's stop at nothing to find a way to save him was pretty good still, even if it didn't pay off quite as well as I hoped.
@Koopyspappy ...What?
@@TheFamilyLedger for context...last year they canonically made Chromie a male dragon who chose a female form "because it suited them"
I assume that's what is being referenced. Honestly was a pretty dumb twist. The logic behind choosing a Gnome with the type of persona......was great tho. To live as the smallest filled with wanderlust
@@TheJacob232 Wasn't that retcon just because her name followed male dragon naming conventions and Blizz just decided to give a nod to fan theories?
@@LieutenantAlaki you very well may be onto something because Chronormu would be a masculine Dragonic name.
Chronixia, Chronistra just don't sound as good
I was just explaining the context of the original comment.
Chromie is the only Gnome character I like.
Been a fan for a long time, it's a lot of fun to watch you connect dots like Charlie in always sunny
When you slowed down the prison breaking at 41:45, it reminded me of The War Within when Azeroth was "speaking" to Anduin and Thrall. Same flare ups in a prison.
i think "time encompasses all possibilities" refers to the idea that given an infinite amount of time, all things possible WILL happen.
Glad to have you doing wow lore again, always great content, keep it up man!
25:06 Hey Pyro. I wanted to remind you of the in-game talent from the Discipline Priest tree, "borrowed time." What does a priest do? They use the light and shadow. What does a Disc priest do? They balance between them and shift back and forth. What else can a priest do? Dominate minds.
Pyro, welcome back to WoW. I'm in the same boat as you my friend, just recently resubbed and preordered the next expac. I took a long hiatus and started playing FFXIV just a few months before you had your infamous meltdown and trip to Eorzea. I just wanted to say that I'm immensely proud of how far you've come and how much you've grown in the last few years with your ending sentiments towards Steve.
I think we all LOVE world of warcraft and the lore around it, and we have to remember that there are people on the other end of everything at the end of the day. We can not like their work, and not like their decisions but it's important to remember that they are TRYING to do what they think is the best thing at the time. I couldn't imagine trying to work in those offices with all the higher up people leaving and all the allegations swirling.
That being said, I couldn't be more excited to have Chris back and see him finishing the stories he started so long ago. See you around my dude!
I'm so damn happy that Pyro is back
I ain't. Professional hater
32:58 Anything with Illidan in it is dope af. I personally LOVE The Rejection of the Gift!
Makes me sad to see comments like "I'm happy that Pyromancer is back." Just why can't you support your creator doesn't matter what they play FFXIV, Outer wilds, etc. He never went away. He has been here for a while now.
I don't think it's disrespectful to not watch content that people are not interested in. I for one never played final fantasy, so while I'm sure he did just as good, it didn't hit for me personally. Having him "back" talking about a topic I do know a lot about is exciting though. He's the best lore analyst out there. It's like Jordan coming out of retirement. No malicious intent.
I'm not Pyro's para social buddy, I'm here because I'm interested in Warcraft lore.
So when he is not talking about that, I'm watching someone else who is talking about that.
And yes, I am glad Pyro's back because he is one of the best at it.
@@Brandon-rl7pv yeah it's not disrespectful just that the general vibe from reading the posts as if he hasnt done any content since having the epic gamer moment back in tail end Shadowlands.
@@AcidUsagi I think it's more of a compliment than anything. We love pyro lore videos!
you're my favorite content creator to listen to on WoW lore!
I think Sargeras will tell Illidan what's really going on and they will come back. After dealing with the Titans
They won't deal with the titans, I find it far more likely that they ended up banding together in order to survive. Did Illidan get Aman'thul's permission to stay and join the fight? How does he feel about Illidan forsaking his fate as light bound? Seems like things that might make him.....an error that needs correction
@@TheJacob232 No way the Titans will help Sargeras and Illidan. The Titans are the problem.
@@Dreyden- no my point was. Illidan jumped in on his own. No TITAN wants him there. Both he and Sargeras are corrupted by fel/chaos the direct opposite of order.
They will team up against the titans....because yes order=no free will
At 12:24 Alexstrasza says, "..brother?" In her daze/confusion she mistook Wrathion for Neltharion. They used to fight the other proto-drakes back in the day together. Thought that was interesting.
Edit: Oh looks like she actually did say "wrathion". Pity, it would've been cool if they had done what I thought.
Two thoughts for you!
1. "You betrayed the world that gave us life"... by obeying the Titans. I'm surprised you didn't react to this line that 100% supports the "Azeroth imprisoned" theory.
2. You got me thinking during the WW preview... could the Crystal underground that acts as their sun be Elune's prison? Is that why she never appears in person, even though she's the Winter Queen's sister?
Personally I think it's that they're referring to the elements and elementals, as Proto-drakes and dragons were the among the only elementals not imprisoned by the Titans.
Have you seen SL video, especially when that horrendous winter queen nonsense campaign happened? Elune literally shows up so that prison theory is a bit hard to accept. Then again these guys have been all over the place.
@@bastalam Elune shows up through Tyrande
@Brooke-rw8rc yes and what does she say?
Sargeras did nothing wrong. Welcome home Pyro, so glad you are back.
at least till his next melt down and calling his fans simps. what a clown
what an idiotic take.. OF COURSE HE DID A LOT WRONG. But perhaps it was for the right reason.. That sort of thing *does* happen.
some of those people he shit on were probably some who help bailed him out when he was going through his living situation. dudes just a rage baby@@ZakhadWOW
Alright that’s it. I’m subscribing to this and your twitch
1:43 "I wanted to see if Razageths humanoid form was hot, we never got to see it"
22:00 Based, she's shoved into everything.
The warcraft 3 cinematic of Illidan breaking out of his prison implies he was there willingly and could have freed himself at any time, unless it was retconned, or I just misinterpreted what was happening.
Was literally thinking to myself the other day, after the new trailer came out, “I wonder if pyro is missing any of this or not” haha nice beard 👌
Blue dragonflight storyline is one of the best in game playable storylines wow ever had, It felt like a single player experience, and it made me care about characters.
there’s a new book in 10.2 that talks about eonar and amanthul having some pretty significant idealogical disagreements which you might want to read
I feel like it will turn out that none of the Titans were "right" to do whatever they've been doing, but Sargeras will be the closest to "right". Kinda seems like Eonar and Aman'thul are assholes.
I'm SO GLAD you are BACK! I insist you interview Chris! :D
Really showing personal growth with these comments about Steve and trying to understand his state of mind; pulling for you to get that interview!
31:50 this is what we all will say once The Last Titan stroryline wraps up. I BELIEVE
The message at the end was generous Pyro!
i forgot how good pyro warcraft lore theorys are, holy shit
At 0:48 I laughed so hard, it caught me off guard. 😂
Kalecgos always looks like he's cosplaying himself.
"But the Titans are the good guys" The Titans wrote the history books :)
13:10 "When Gotham is ashes, you have my permission to die." That's basically what Raszageth said to Alexstrasza.
Look at the bfa opening cinematic when anduin does his bubble its almost like he is rewinding the damage that was done to his troops
Love seeing his back. I think he should add a PauseChamp emote.
“RISEEEE ARGUUUUS” damn that was cool,in that scene. Legion is so fuckin cool aaaaa. And the MUSIC🔥🔥🔥 and Illidan voice acting,spectacular!!!!!!!! THE BEST cinematic in the entire game,and Rejection of The Gift was equally glorious. Oh my god I gotta go spam every Warcraft dev and cinematic director on Twitter to REMIND THEM OF WHAT EPIC MEANS !!!! FUCK CHROMIE DEAR GOD,DISNEYFLIGHT
Bronze Dragons are tasked with *maintaining* this 'True Timeline' via their version of Time magic.
The Infinites' goal is *changing* time with their version of Time magic.
Bronze's looks awfully *bright*, while Infinite's looks awfully *dark*.
Hmm...
I think Illidan with speak with Sargeras, and find that we have fought on the wrong side. The Titans are using powers they should not possess, and Sargeras found out about it, so the Pantheon changed history to make him look like the instigator of the Burning Crusade for a Twisted pupose, yet I think Sargeras' purpose of the Burning Crusade is to wipe out all of the TITANS Creations, NOT all of creation. I think Azeroth is very important to Sargeras, and we may know why soon.
Since when get people the idea that Naaru were created by Titans?
dude pyro I would love to see you get an interview with Metzen. also man loved this video
I'm so happy you came back Pyro, you're in my top 3 favorite WoWtubers.
its official boys and girls the goat is back!
Dude you're back and there is balance
What if Elune is in the middle of Azeroth too. Maybe that’s the voice. The book in 10.2 talks of Elune and eonar being in love and Elune gifting a branch of the mother world tree
I hope to see a conclusion to ''The jailer's on what's to come warning'' to the champions of Azeroth maybe being about the Titan's or the Void
@@goofygoofy627 Zovaal's position is pretty clear. He sees the whole reality/mortal thing as a giant and dangerous waste of energy. Like being in a world of hunger and someone wastes all the food on millions of pets.
@@miriamweller812 Yeah but Zovaal's character refrences the soul of the world being wounded and full of potential he gathered everything he needed to reshape reality and we killed him anyways then warns of something to come just feel like they'd add that in a future patch or expansion explaining all of that or having a conclusion to his warning as he turns back into a robot he says a cosmo divided will not survive what is to come
when pyro said azeroth is in stasis it reminded me of when wrathion ate the heart of lei shen. “we have fallen. we must rebuild the final titan.” interesting that he said “rebuild” instead of literally anything else, makes me wonder what else they did to azeroth.
47:25 "Every living thing that's from the twisting nether is considered a Demon"
That sparked a thought in me. If denizens of the twisting nether are all demons, and the primary characteristic of Demons are domination through power, and total destruction through Fel.
Does that mean that Argus' non-dominated/ordered state IS Chaos/Fel? I'd imagine that Argus being the Titan of the realm of the twisting nether would share in that characteristic. Which would very clearly delineate Chaos/Fel as Total Destruction as it's been stated.
hey pyro, great video, i discovered your channel recently and already sunked in the wow speculations, hahahhaah amazing!
One thing that i pondered watching again this video, Nozdormu is afraid of becoming Moruzond, ok, we know that, but, big but here, if that sentiment of him being afraid is something related to de control magic of the titans, and Moruzond is a form of him free of the Order, and the Infinite Dragonflight are a branch of the time dragons that saw what the titans did and are trying to revert this situation.
Just a speculation, but something that came to mind watching.
BTW, great content, sticking to see what is in the future.
The same as in Demolition Man, he was in stasis
sylvanas: this world is a prison
coincidence? i think not
Okay with them use what appears to be the domination magic runes, small parts of shadowlands are being safely scrounged and somehow relevant. I appreciate that. It was Argus's dead Titan soul going to the Shadowland that shutdown the soul sorting factory that was Oribos to begin with. Hmmm. >_> I mean I'm not sure I'm just seeing pattern where there are none of if I'm actually just really hyped about the new WoW expansion.
I love Raszageth's voice. Its awesome. Also I like Chromie! She's so cute and lovable! Like a fluffy cat.
Funny enough, your ideas of the Titans putting those who don't comply into stasis, what did the AU draenor light army do? Oh yeah crystal stasis. Think you are on the right track.
Illidan in TBC - tries to save Azeroth - > we fucked it up
Sargeras - tries to save Azeroth -> we fucked it up
Garrosh - tries to save all the orcs (in his own way, but still) - we fucked it up... twice...
I've said it before and i'll say it again - we are the baddies.
Stop grinding world quests and raid bosses sheeple, sit afk or ERP in goldshire if you really want to "save the world"
So, when Illidan realises what the titans are trying to do. Will he free sargeras?… AS AN ALLY!?
@Pyromancer if you look at the floor of the Seat of the Pantheon and Runecarver’s Oubliette, you’ll notice what looks like Domination Runes.
So, I'm really happy to see you nerding out over WoW lore again. Don't get wrong, ffxiv is great and I'm a big fan of rpg from japan but their stories have a different kind of spirituality and cultural basis (Shintoism and whatnot).
WoW lore is of a different zeitgeist. Inspired by Tolkien and Michael Moorcock. As well as ancient mythology from what big archeology in the west considers the bed of civilization. The kind of stories told from this point of view are very enjoyable when looking at the massive overall lore. While japanese games are great for me to connect with one on one where I challenge the very meanings of existence with empathy and release... and a little bit of killing god randomly as an ultimate test of our resolve.
I'm actually really curious to see how WoW will tackle the act of fighting gods. The idea that the children of Azeroth is starting to hear her is a sign that we're about to get pretty spiritual, but I hope they can keep some of the intensity of war. (Though I will admit that kind of fighting does go against the gnostic notion of any reason to fight a god, which is freedom). /autisticramble
In 10.2 we learn that Eonar had an argument with Aman'thul about the dream and the world trees. I hope you leak into that!
I can't get enough of these videos. Pyro poppin' the f*** off!
Pyro, is it ever explained with lore why Chromie has 8 fingers?
I agree with your take on Chromie.
Chromie is the most annoying thing since Khadgar's floating head in Legion.
I have missed ur Wow lore since u went to FF Gr8 to see u here again
They captured raszagaeth at a different time, she was first. It is in the book. Most of the cutscenes make so much sense now that we have the book.
We're back baby
@Pyromancer, doubt you will read or see this, and I have been siting on this for a while, please take this as a what if scenario as it is meant to be as there is little proof to back it, just is an interesting thought. What if the Old Gods were really spawned from the nightmare, which in of itself was a counter from Azeroth to the Dream, which when got yanked out why it almost 'destroyed' it they meant the prison not Azeroth. Dunno just a fun though since All the names tie to the same lovecraftian lore, and there are dream elements a lot of the time. Food for thought.
Bit surprised to see an actual decent take on Danuser, honestly, good on you for reconsidering things after time passed. A lot of people still don't - it truly feels like a lot of WoW players just *want* someone to be mad about, and won't consider any other factors - or that you can be critical of someone's skills without criticising them as a person.
Relatedly, one of the comments in the chat toward the end: "Where do you think Danuser is in all this? He can't be happy being subservient to Metzen" This is kinda what I'm talking about. I don't think this commenter meant it specifically, but there ARE people who see Danuser as some arrogant, micro-managing individual who would chafe under Metzen's leash, but every developer interview we've had, and even every insider comment to content creators, suggests that, one, Metzen isn't controlling anyone, and two, that Ion, Metzen and Danuser have a lot of fun discussing lore direction going forward. Far from Danuser being upset that Metzen is back, which feels like a position you could only arrive at if you've already got in your head that Danuser is a toxic person as well as a bad writer (some people even accuse him and other writers of 'hating' Warcraft's story, which lmao), Danuser more than likely geeks out at getting to talk to Chris Motherfucking Metzen about the lore and hashing out his ideas along with Chris's, and finding a good path that merges both their viewpoints.
It really is sad to me that so many in the community just... ignore things to feed into their own predetermined views on the story. The idea that the writers hate the Warcraft story is laughable, we all heard how bad Blizzard has been to actually work at historically, and people thing someone would specifically apply to work someone with a history of underpayment even before the scandals went public, to work on an IP they at best don't care about and at worst hate, purely as some kind of conspiracy to ruin it? Nah, man, most of the writers and historians there are completely WoW lore nuts who *obsessed* over the story more than most players did, and got into the teams on that passion. Some of them simply weren't up to the task of actually writing the lore, or presenting it in-game well enough. Too many people just make stuff up to malign the developers - and then they mock the developers if they try to address the "the devs don't care/hate the game" with commenting that the team had fun creating the stuff.
It's damn sad. Literally a no-win scenario if you're a writer for WoW. Even if you're not up to the task, it's hard to imagine many people feeling the need to improve when they know no matter what they do thousands of people will overlook any positives and blow any negatives out of propotion.
Maybe if you paid attention to what steve said about the past lore, you would understand where those ppl are coming from. Just look at what happened with Arthas, a very memorable part of wow lore.
Change is fine but not the entire overhaul of everything we've come to know. In their quest to expand the lore, they've blurred everything that we've known. They could have gone to great dark beyond for continuation of the lore.
You need to see what the other side is saying. Obviously, there are those who take it too far, but that goes for both sides.
@@bastalam I do see the other side, and I know where people are coming from, but there's a big difference between "the story is going downhill and isn't consistent with the past lore" and "the current writers hate the lore/want to rewrite everything Just Because/are arrogant and think they know better".
I can see what the other side is saying just fine, but I can't see the line between how they feel about the story and "man, Danuser must be pissed that Metzen's back to rein him in". I would not at all be surprised if Danuser was one of the people asking if he wanted to come back - every writer there respects Metzen as much as any player, perhaps even moreso considering they made a career out of following him.
As you say, there are people on both sides who take it too far, but the loudest seem to be people who don't actually care to be fair and just want to hate on things. Even this latest interview... a developer said they look at Disney as a model *specifically about building franchises with multi-year stories* and there are plenty of people who somehow took it to mean the lore is going to be more kid friendly and emotional and essentially be Disney movies, when that's not what was said.
It's very hard to treat people's views in good faith when they refuse to do so themselves.
@TaliesinMyrddin glad you see both sides. To be perfectly honest, I didn't see that QA and wasn't aware until you told me. I, too, am worried but I'll wait and see how things play out.
My issue is with constant lore changes. I can't connect with the lore when I know down the line it'll be changed, so it doesn't matter what is said now. You have to remember that when chronicles was released, it was supposed to tie in the plotholes and present one clear lore. SL changed that and we were told it was written from the titan perspective. This was never the case when chronicles came out so you know it was something made up to tie in any new thing to expand the lore. I have no issue with change. For example pre legion there was no mention of argus and in the comics there is another titan that was introduced. Those changes can be added in no issue but why must the previous lore be butchered for the new? Personally, I'm against this Titan=malevolent talk. SL had already introduced the first ones and we should have continued on that plot and expanded it further by going to the great dark beyond. The durust and that inter-dimentional race in zerith mortis and other plots released in SL arguably primus being the biggest missed opportunity of that expac. There was enough to go on instead of destroying another pillar of the previous lore. I agree it's a personal opinion, but my point is that these changes to pre-established lore can and will break the connection ppl have to the story cause there is no constant they can anchor to.
@@bastalam I can get that. I personally love the titans-may-not-be-totally-benevolent thing they're doing now cuz in my eyes it doesn't really contradict past lore, it just confirms some older theories based on vague things, but I definitely understand how changing lore can lead to a lack of connection. I'm not enjoying Tears of the Kingdom much as I play through it because it feels like (as far as I've played, at least) it ignores most of the established timeline and just does whatever it wants for the relatively barebones story, and after Skyward Sword set up some really fun stuff BotW and Tears went in a direction that has me questioning whether I'm still a Zelda fan anymore, primarily because it feels a lot harder to care about the timeline when Nintendo doesn't seem to. So it'd be hypocritical of me to act like people feeling that way about Warcraft lore are dramatic or misinformed or anything like that.
And while I like the idea of Chronicle being more of a perspective than a solid 'this is what happened' bible - and I do - I do also agree that it was pretty BS to initially market it as an out-of-universe canon reference to the history of Azeroth and then turn around and say it was essentially written by in-universe characters and may be coloured by their biases. I think if they had sold it as "this is how the titans see the universe" I'd have enjoyed it just as much, but it definitely was the wrong move to lead players to think one thing and then completely change the meaning of that book as opposed to working around it in a more natural and subtle long-term way.
My hope is that they continue on the current track a lot more consistently with Metzen back and a solid, committed three-expansion story to tell, but I know it's a direction some older players might not love, and I sympathise with them for that
@TaliesinMyrddin I hope so, too. Just to be clear, I knew the Titans were not completely benevolent beings. To me, they were just portrayed as space scientists obsessed with ordering and shaping worlds, taking special interest in planets with their own kind in it. Beings that were morally centrally aligned. Not completely malevolent or benevolent.
We've had a taste of the black empire in cata and then bfa. Honestly, I prefer Titan order over it any time. I also understood why they set up planet-wide wipe due to that corruption. Life would continue after wipe via emerald dream CC. This all made them unique in a world where a side on the moral compass had to be picked. Now, though, it seems that uniqueness is gone.
Again, I'm not against change, but some old establishment lore must remain constant, especially when it was presented that way years ago for the audience to remain connected and invested in the story.
So, what if the titans found the strongest world soul, did a bunch of experiments on it, and clearly don't want to wake it up as it would know they did this to it and again, is the strongest one.
Also, the worrisome title I've always felt was "Life BINDER" not lifegiver or savior of life, life mother, etc. Life BINDER.
Argus was clearly under someone's control and was elated in his freedom in death.
Aman claims to have killed the greatest old God and couldn't kill the rest, so they were imprisoned... but he didn't. Not only did the only one he killed not actually die, its influence, will, and even body all remained on azeroth to continue doing his will. The titans clearly CAN'T get rid of the old gods.
Also I think the old gods each represent a body part of some greater being that has some significance. C'thun is an eye, yogg is just mouths, N'zoth despite having eyes is very much a brain. Always felt like there was a thread there.
"This world is a prison!"
"Pyro watches cinematics and catchup part 5"when?
Vyranoth did not betray her homies. Her homies betrayed their cause.
The War of The Scaleborn (the Dragonflight novel) is a decent story, but it's fucking aggravating how much of the book should have been in the game...
Argus wasn't always in the Twisting Nether. As with all planets, Argus was in the Great Dark Beyond, which for all intents and purposes is the realm of Order, and when the eredar joined the Burning Legion, Argus was drawn into the Twisting Nether and altered by Disorder. The true original demons do not have a home "world" and were born in the pool of energy that is the Twisting Nether. Then there are the mortal races that turned to Disorder, like the man'ari and nathrezim, who had their homeworlds drawn into the Nether when they were utterly consumed by fel magic. The Nether itself does not have any physical manifestation, and all of the physical sites within the Nether that we know were pieces of the Great Dark Beyond, and possibly other realms, that were pulled into the Nether when its nascent energies seeped into other realms.
Honestly Chromie would've been better as a human child. Have her character age and evolve, slowly losing faith in their path and caring more about the present rather than the timeline. We meet her as a little child who does her stuff, by now she could be a rebellious teen dragon similar to Wrathion. Heck, then Wrathion could actually have a Dragon in the cast that he might be able to bounce off of. One child with alot to lose and another with alot to prove. Both forced to grow up far faster than Dragons normally do.
Can't wait to see his reaction to Murozond because that is another cool story that got butchered in my opinion.
I always wonder about what Sargeras says right before Argus appears. „That which you have stolen, will be your undoing.“ so…did the titans stole a part from Azeroth which is then manifested in Argus and then later given back through Sargeras‘ sword piercing the planet?
Could be the titans stealing the void energy to create the naruu? The light will eventually decay into void and cause their undoing?
21:36 I fucking knew you are gonna say that
THEORY! orderning magic is domination magic. domination magic is actually a twisting of ordening magic. why? because i am not willing to give the jailer any credit for anything.
also the first ones maybe where the first generation of immortals and got overthrown by the titans and the eternals. maybe elune has something to do with the first ones
Titans and their Order is very much like Jygallag from Elder Scrolls. Order is powerful and it’s hard to overcome
Was 'Iridikron's hunger' explained or expanded upon in the new book? Because Nozdormu and Alex's reaction indicate that they've witnessed it.
You should play the new patch, in one of the quests (The Q'onzu Query) it points out that the dream ows its form from Freya
Who's here in 2023
After the light/void lesson we just had, I am here from 2024.
best day ever
I’m still in 2005
I never left 2004.
@@rsmith8113 😂
@Pyromancer Sorry Pyro, but what are you talking about: Vyranoth did NOT betray the Incarnates; actually Fyraak betrayd the others, if you have played the story and actually listen to what it's about. Fyraak wants to corrupt the world tree, that's not something the other Incarnated wanted; the Incarnates want to free azeroth from the titans, not corrupting it. Vyranoth wants to protect the dragons, something the others actually wants too more or less while Fyraak wants to have power over everything else. But i am sure she will help her brother if necessary.
Hey Pyro, I’m new to your channel, and I’m a little confused; why do you think Eonar is evil/bad?
Titans and their creations don’t kill cause Eonar is forcing life, they just imprison… they don’t kill cause they can’t.
"this world is a prison"
Not me going to vod to see what the editor cut out only to find out it was a Naaruto pun 💀
Haven't followed any of WoW since 2016. Raszageth looks like she'd make some rad armor in Monster Hunter tho...
Isnt it possible to reach azeroth through the wound where Yshaarj was torn from the planet? Her blood surged from the wound, afterall the wound became the well of eternity which later became the Maelstrom which leads us down the deepholm I wonder how far deeper it goes. Edit: expanding on that idea, if the heart of yshaarj survived all these millenia - surely the main body that was rooted into the world itself should still be there if not dormant (that we know of) and perhaps his corpse is also an avenue of entry
Syndragosa is beautiful
Eonar tried to bitchsplain Amanthul
Azeroth, Dragon Titan
Maybe Sargeras is afraid of Azeroth and wants to destroy her because she would be more powerful than him if she was released?
It's good to have you back, my guy...I tried to get down with FF, just couldn't get with it.
Bro! you're back!
Watching this... we're fucking Kadgar Personnal army since Wrath, maybe Wrath is a stretch I would have to check his status with the Kirin Tor a that moment. But WoD for sure is like directly him being like guys come here.
Fucking Kalec is like yo brother I need some help and Kadgar is like sure I'll ask around!