Church abuse, scandals & RZIM: Rachael Denhollander, Amy Orr-Ewing, Mike Cosper & Diane Langberg
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- Опубликовано: 22 сен 2022
- Justin Brierley was joined by four guests and hundreds of attendees for a live webinar event Falling From Grace: Addressing power, leadership and abuse in the church. This included the fallout from prominent figures such as Ravi Zacharias and Mark Driscoll.
Panellists: Abuse survivor and advocate Rachael Denhollander; author, theologian and former RZIM vice-president Amy Orr-Ewing; Rise And Fall Of Mars Hill Podcast presenter Mike Cosper; and trauma and abuse specialist Diane Langberg. Justin Humphreys of the leading independent Christian safeguarding charity @Thirtyoneeight also joins the conversation.
For the resources from Thirtyone:eight: thirtyoneeight.org/unbelievable
Rachael Denhollander: rachaeldenhollander.com/
Amy Orr-Ewing: www.amyorr-ewing.com/
Mike Cosper: mikecosper.net/podcasts/rise-...
Diane Langberg: www.dianelangberg.com/
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Thank you for doing these. I am an adult survivor of clergy sexual misconduct. I have been ostracized by my church and silenced, left to figure out my healing. They framed the abuse as an "affair" and allowed the congregation to run with that narrative. I am my own advocate, it's tough but I will not give up!!!! Thank you!!
That's so sad, and I hope you progress well with your cause. I'd just suggest you look after yourself and be kind to yourself. These matters can be exhausting and emotionally draining. Try to find people you can talk to too. Dealing with this alone is far from easy.
If only congregants would think for themselves instead of swallowing whatever the perpetrator feeds them. After all, they're adults, aren't they?!
@@susandumbill8805 Thank you so much 💜
What an amazing panel discussion....... please do another programme like this. Many people will find Hope!
Wow! A ‘must hear’ for everyone in leadership!
Actually, it would be good for every adult in the world to hear this!
This is the first time I heard Racheal speak. I am thoroughly impressed by her biblical acumen, her theological instincts and her very realistic approach to depravity. That is really good stuff.
Of course using 'media pressure' - especially social media - leads to a lot of false accusation.
It’s so nice to see Amy Orr-Ewing. I had watched an apologetics conference with Abu Murray, John Lennox, and Ravi. I listened to it over and over on Right Now Media. As soon as the scandal hit, all content was immediately stopped (quite rightly). But I had memorized a lot of it. Amy’s portion was on the historicity of the New Testament and I did not know her name. I looked and looked and finally found her name and her books so I could order them. Thank you all. I know it was devastating to you.
Why do you say "rightly stopped"? Amy was part of it. Should others pay for the sins of one man? Also, does a sin invalidate that person's writing? Peter sinned and Paul had to rebuke him. We don't go around saying that Peter's epistles should be removed from the bible.
Amy was quite high up in the RZIM organisation. Can't prove anything, but she may have known about his "pecadillos" well before news broke...and kept shtum. Who knows. It's difficult to imagine high executives in RZIM wouldn't know a thing
We know that power = corruption, and religion wields much unchecked power
@@zhengfuukusheng9238 Amy did say there were some rumors but she dismissed them. We need to understand that there are many more false allegations than true ones. We focus on true ones but these false allegations have torn apart churches before.
Billy Graham made it a lifelong commitment to NEVER meet a woman without his wife present. We both know that there are many Jezebels out there; seeking money or destroying lives.
Consider Ravi. His accuser, Lori Thomson, was known for improper behaviors at previous churches. While married, she sent naked pictures of herself to Ravi. Her husband and she were trying to extort $5 million from RZIM to keep quiet before the news became public. These things happen quite a bit in big churches.
Thank you all for sharing your pain so that others could know the healing power of the Cross of Jesus Christ.
@@thomasc9036 they actually discuss this exact question (does a sin invalidate that person's writing) later on in the video. The consensus was as I recall that trying to pick out the "good bits" from the writings was not possible. It wasn't a single sin, but a multitude of sins over several decades. When confronted with lesser sins, RZ did not seek forgiveness but persisted in hiding the truth.
This was such a wholesome conversation. Thanks Justin & the entire Unbelievable? Team
Super helpful, practical and applicable. I’m a church leader who’s followed each of the threads and appreciate the help building protective steps for everyone.
RACHAEL DENHOLLANDER was ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL on this show! She nailed it!!! Thank you!!
Can’t wait to hear from this amazing panel! Praise the Lord for Justin’s Ministry.
Aip
The question is not the existence of sex abuse. The question is what is done once abuse or the allegations of abuse are revealed. The reason the Catholic Church has been discredited so much and so repeatedly is because of their systematic coverup of the abuse, how they hid and moved around the abusers. Abusing priests should have been automatically shamed, excommunicated and turned to the secular authorities so they may rot in jail. Not doing this takes all of the Church's alleged moral standing away.
Not just the Catholic Church, not all survivors are genuine (I know a personal case that was thrown out of court) and the accepted secular psychological practice at the time (which the Catholic Church consulted) was a type of conversion therapy and moving priests around was seen to be best practice, and in many cases the authorities were disinterested in child abuse cases - not just clergy related. The Church has thrown a lot of money at this problem, it will continue to do so. Has it lost its moral standing? Maybe in some part sure, but secularisation is the true undoer. The Christian position is to forgive. Sexual abusers are fallen people that deserve our mercy and forgiveness for their sins and deserve just punishment for their crimes. The most ardent haters of the Catholic Church are usually atheists or ex-Catholics who have left the Church long ago and are using abuse as a means to justify that hate. Point in case is the prosecution of George Pell in Australia - everyone got on the 'we hate the Church bandwagon - including prominent Catholics' but we heard nothing from these people when the court quashed the findings unanimously following an appeals process. These people who seek justice are not the ones helping to resolve this issue, they simply want the Church to go away. But crimes against children will not simply disappear, they'll just move elsewhere, like they have, to schools. And to mount the argument that we should lose faith in our public school system because a large proportion of their staff engage in illicit sexual acts (some consensual) with students, just isn't reasonable.
So good to listen to!! Really nice to see more women on the show too!
Each time our questions seem to have no answers, answers start to come as we reflect of the Cross.
That is amazing.
Did the panel reference Darby Strickland’s “is it abuse?” A very good “helper handbook “ to assist churches to recognize abuse and deal faithfully and gently with abuse victims
Good that this discussion was held
This was a truly impressive panel. Diane and Rachael especially, wow, great insight and wisdom. Lots of truth.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
That's makes the omnipotent one absolutely corrupt
@@zhengfuukusheng9238 Hmm. That doesn’t worry me. An imaginary absolutely corrupt omnipotent one is unlikely to bother anyone.
Bless you guys.
I have found this so helpful and valuable!
As a pastor, I've learner over many years that forgiveness is about your heart, and your relationship with God. It will usually have an outworking in terms of the decline of hate and aggression, and hurt in regards to the abuser. But it is primarily for the heart of the forgiver!
I can't imagine a situation where I'd have the abused and the abuser face-to-face in a "Forgiveness" session.
These acts (Driscoll, Zacharias, et. al.) collectively and individually, are quintessentially what it means to "profane the name of God".
Exactly!
How do we give abused women the ability to come forward and at the same time protect against false accusations? I believe there is much abuse on both sides of this issue.
Yes your right and we need to get together to talk about this . Good question because men get locked up for nothing too!!
I asked my vicar to help me change incest laws. She said she would and never got back to me. She saw me in a right state because I know other kids are experiencing my abuse. I was ignored by my church
Rachel amen 🙏 yhank you so much everyone ❤️
We are getting close. Thank you
I am more impressed with the Volumes of the Works of John Owen and Calvin's Commentaries behind Rachael Denhollander.
The Bible should be enough.
And I'm not convinced that spending hundreds (or thousands) of dollars on books - especially books by men explaining Scripture when Jesus in John 14:26 & 16:13 specifically says the Holy Spirit will teach and guide us - is the best stewardship of God's resources.
I won't comment on what the penchant of Calvinists (Phil Johnson being the prime example) to show off their library says about them.
I will leave others to discern.
But I do pray that people take the warnings of Jesus seriously....
"He answered and said unto them: "Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men
Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye" (Mark 7:6-8a, 9, 13)
The traditions of men refer to the rituals and ordinances of the pharisees who added to the law. That's what Jesus accused them of. Paul said follow me as I follow Christ. Strongs Concordance is a book... needed for the original Greek.
Idiomatic language of the first century and Greek metaphors is useful. Jewish history and culture and the Temple practices. Smell the coffee.
As for the African church, we don't even know where to begin. Only the Righteous Judge will save us in His Sovereignty. Amen
African pastors are known for drowning people during baptisms.....worse still, accusing little children of being witches and getting their congregations to kill them.
Disgusting
Yes don't wait for the white man to rescue you but rather Africans should organise and work towards exposing and handing the perpetrators to the law.
In the church to be a minister certain habitual sins are acceptable certain habitual sins are not. Let that sink in.
And NSPCC ignored. I'm so angry but glad your talking about this incredibly important subject. Thank you. 😊
I like the suggestion from Rachel on how church leadership communicate their policies and procedures on abuse as a preventive measures against predators and creating safe place and awareness to the flock.
Re-examining our theology is only the first step. The most difficult part is how you adopt the changes, as our theology in leadership is interwoven in our ecclesiology and church polity.
Being Born From Above is not a Image 🗣 👥 👤
Spot on Amy x
Lord be with Your Church and it’s wounded. Bring a fresh wind to blow away the chaff and administer fresh oil of empowering healing. Amen
I donated a lot of money to RZIM in 2018, A LOT of money. I was told at one of the Founder's Weekends, where RZIM used to invite its major donors, that Ravi was innocent of the 2017 allegations by Lori Thompson. At that time, the Thompson incident was the only one I was aware of (and the allegations of faking his academic credentials). I had no idea at that time about Ravi's visits to massage therapy, his ownership of various spas, nor his frequent long trips to places like Bangkok, where it seems many of his other abuses occurred. As incredibly disappointing as the entire RZIM scandal has been, however, it doesn't seem to have affected my faith in Christ one bit. But, in the Church, we must beware. For the Devil has infiltrated the Church from the start. Why God allows this, I don't know, but He does.
You mean the same Lori Thompson who voluntarily sent naked pictures of herself to Ravi. The same Lori Thomson who collaborated with her husband to sue RZIM for $5 million to keep quiet. Ravi may have been a sexual predator, she was a Jezebel.
Perhaps he allows it because he does not exist.
You gave to the work of God. It won't have gone to waste.
Ravis work did a lot for me. I hope the brilliance isn't lost amongst his scandals.
An episode from the TV series "The Wilds" reflected a lot of what is wrong with evangelical sub-cultures. One of the girls was brought up in a repressive, "muscular Christianity" church environment with a "super-spiritual" emphasis on performance, on ticking all the right boxes. The result was that the image of.strength and certainty that she had been trying so hard to cultivate and project just fell apart. She had been a victim of a very subtle kind of abuse.
unfortunately predators are no different whether in the church or world, they always seek vulnerable, when one is found, expose
Most people don't bring their kids to church that abuse them so how do we see what's going on in community? 🤔
It seems many of the leaders we were taught to trust blindly are not who they seemed to be. So let’s find new leaders to trust blindly. It’s almost as if we are conditioned to be sheep.
Isn’t that the nature of all religions?
So we keep our questioning within the bounds of theological details and spiritual practices. Never asking the really big questions with a commitment to seeking out and follow the evidence.
We are being set up to believe whatever we are told to believe.
It’s time to wake up and really see the truth that sets us free from our religious conditioning.
It’s painful to learn we’ve been mislead about the things we held most dear, but if we continue to behave like sheep we are living in a fool’s paradise.
We use apologetics to firm up our faith in the message we have received; instead of demanding the kind of supporting evidence for our faith we would expect from any other set of ideas we put faith in.
We are taught to deliberately blind ourselves by seeking deep emotional experiences that have the ability to override our capacity for rational thinking.
Anyone who would have us truely question our beliefs is presented as dangerous and untrustworthy, so our access to alternative information is subconsciously controlled.
I think in the case of Mark Driscoll it says something about a yearning in young man for a positive vision of masculinity that his ministry grew so much. Turns out that's not how he lived out but this only further emphasises our need to find what it means to have a Godly masculinity.
This may seem on the nose to some but let me just clarify that Godly men *protect* women and oppose abusers.
what would authentic true spiritual authority look like ? or would we end up having a muted anemic version of spiritual leadership in the aftermath
we are dealing with a situation where the new pastors wife is driving people to leave the church and is verbally abusive, the Pastor seems to down play the situation, and the Pastor has not been truthful about a few things, as a board we are looking to relieve the pastor in the best interest of the local congregation
My church reported me to the mental health services behind my back. My workers ignored them.. I should ask their reply actually 🤔 😅
It is incredible though, given how strict the biblical sexual ethic is, that men could get away with such licentious and wicked behavior within the Church. I mean, sexual purity is the biblical norm; chastity is the primary bodily virtue for the Christian.
Thank you for discussing this topic. So many people have been hurt. I wish Diane had been given more time to speak. She’s the one with the most depth of knowledge and experience. Rachael is smart but is young and hasn’t learned, I guess, not to monopolized the time, especially when folks older and more experienced are on the panel. I felt myself wishing she would cut her comments short and let others speak.
Your starting place is talking to victims and talking public about it in church ⛪️ 🙏
I have a civil claim against West Yorkshire chief of Police with my human rights lawyer from the Centre for Women's Justice Harriet Wistrich for 35 years for their serious systematic failings to investigate Appleyard my dad . ⚖️ the church too needs holding to account too!
You've definitely got some work to do !
Give our testimonials. Why arnt we given the platform prevention, deterent is better than cure.
It's not bad behaviour in all churches and my earlier vicar helped me but still parents don't want their children to know familial rape happen if its not happening to their children. I have done many safe guarding courses and here this. We need a round table to look at the government child safeguard rules! Cos I know they are failing to safeguard childrenand church!
On Sunday service we can ask the children what's the best and worst thing that's happened to you this weekend . Adults are here to protect the children. Why is this subject taboo in this day n age ?
Hats off to RZIM for apologizing...
Amy Orr-Ewing was EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT of RZIM and has confessed to her own complicity in the sexual abuse of Ravi Zacharias-but not her complicity in any of the other multiple RZIM scandals, at least as far as I know. To now "regularize" or "restore" her role as a public theologian only brings further scandal, not accountability. The fact that Lori Anne Thompson forgave her is laudable, but it doesn't mean that Amy should continue in this particular career.
What other scandals? Amy's admission is that she allowed the prevailing impunity regarding RZ and did not press enough with seemed to be mounting suspicion. Her admission is Christ- following humility. Didn't Peter (multiple times) repent and continue, renewed and effectively used by the Lord to proclaim Christ (not Christendom).
Turning a blind eye to abuse and not reporting it to police is *NOT* so-called "Christ-like humility"....whatever garbage that might mean
So the host if the program needs permission from you first. Her presence is neither an endorsement or a promotion.
Yes lets stone and then crucify Amy Orr-Ewing!
How dare she sinned and/or found herself guilty at the behavior of someone else?!
May she and her husband lose everything they ever earned and never ever been seen or invited again.
That is what Jesus would have done.
He would have stoned and slaughtered all those filthy sinners and then felt like he was amazing.
That is how it should be!
Dale LoeppYou are absolutely correct. She shouldn't get a pass at all. She needs to be investigated, which would also include monetary payments. And yes, I mean that. Has anyone around Ravi purchased anything out of the ordinary? Or received payments in the form of services rendered? Something that would at first blush seem normal? The days of letting things slide needs to stop, so let's be fair and thorough in our judgments. We deserve the truth...
1 john 2:
27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.
this doesn't mean to not be teachable, but the Holy Spirit is in the believer and He and the scripture is the final authority, not the pastor/elder
The problem with assuming that abuse is happening because of the mode in which we do Church in the evangelical world, is that the Roman Catholic Church has had as much, if not more, problems with sexual abuse, and they have a very different view of both the Church and its practice. Roman Catholic priests would hardly be equated with "celebrities" in the same way Evangelical mega-church pastors are.
Probably not more, just more has been revealed because there is an expectation and freedom that people can admit their abuse, often very publicly. You don't see this happen in the other major religions Buddhism, Islam and Judaism and (it's almost impossible that abuse has not occurred in these institutions, it's just more carefully concealed) or where abuse happens most frequently - the family home (or foster care) followed by public schools. One of my acquaintances (a school teacher) working in a public school had three of her colleagues prosecuted for sex offences in one year alone all at the same school (it was implied sexual contact occurred in all cases). None of that was published anywhere. In contrast one Catholic school had a non-Catholic sports coach who provided external coaching lessons (outside of class) to one student who was groomed (but no sexual contact occurred) and it was splashed over the news for weeks endlessly.
But your overall point is correct, the way of doing church is not the problem, it's the ability to have lone contact with children that is the problem. Christian churches (especially Catholic) have always had a monopoly on providing social care to children. Pedophiles had ample opportunity. Even before the scandals broke I, a Catholic child, I was never allowed to be in a room (even as an alter server) alone with a priest, the priest would always ask me to leave or call someone else in (if not my parents) to ensure we were not alone. So to for my teachers in a Catholic school. I was never allowed to be alone with an adult in a closed room and all our rooms had either large windows that remained uncovered or doors with large panes or even whole glass walls so that you couldn't hide in a room at all (much to our distress as teenagers). Discerning adults who mean no harm to children will act accordingly, but those who wish to pursue children for sexual acts will find means to do so, even if those means are extraordinary.
This beautiful lady with long blonde hair is spot on!
What Ravi did adversely affected, the community and me.. It is used by unbelievers as reasons why all are Scharlatans.. However this continues till now. Covid19, highlighted this issue and many left Christianity due to this.
It's simply absurd to use what Ravi did to accuse all Christians as charlatans, and I say this as an atheist. If atheists had churches, however, and some atheist leader did the same things Ravi did, I bet you everything that conservative evangelical Christians would attack atheists and denounce secular humanism 24/7.
I believe sexual abuse is clear. But no one here defined what is spiritual leadership abuse is like.. What parental spiritual abuse is like..? Definitions are important or
Very profound observation by Diane that our mindset should accept that the church should be decoupled from Jesus. Sad and painful truth.
On another note, I always go back to the first principles. In the 1st century church the leadership was made up of multiple persons - never 1. If we go back to this structure, and remain vulnerable and accountable to each other, many church problems could be averted.
@Jacqueline Lukose Exactly! In the New Testament, the main Greek word for "leader" is always used negatively and that should tell us a lot!
The ekklesia/church is meant to be a body (1 Corinthians 12) with ONE head: Jesus Christ.
These beautiful words of Jesus are too often overlooked and the results of overlooking them are obvious all around us:
"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:25-28)
If the holy spirit is indwelling those in the Christian church, why do we see no difference in abuse claims?
Whoever thought it was okay that Ravi was part owner of massage parlors should have had their head checked. Since when do evangelists and ministers of the Gospel own massage parlors? I stopped getting sports massages immediately after my conversion; and I was in the military at the time, when I could have used them.
Because he had terrible issues with his back and traveled by plane often. It seemed reasonable to own and frequent a massage parlor.
never put a pastor or any church/church leader above the scripture and the family structure, if you sense unbiblical practices or undue "authority" leave that particular church, a good rule of thumb is to never have a pastor live above the people they SERVE, being charismatic or a great speaker means nothing
Good fighting evil 😈 💪
Perhaps asking a man to go completely against his normative nature(like not having sex and not falling in love) can only be detrimental
@Thucydides I think you are referring to Roman Catholic teachjng on the celibacy of priests, which runs counter to what the Bible says.
Marriage is encouraged in both the Old and New Testaments.
He might also be referring to LGBTQ marriage/relationships.
I hear a lot of justice, what about the grace/forgiveness??
We live in a world of pain ... unfortunately. But God send Jesus to forgive us.
We are not better than Ravi Zacharias.
Those who were offended must forgive, that's the first step.
Doesn't matter how difficult it is, thinking about Ravi family. As well to thing what led him to do such things.
It seems we are ready to condemn than to forgive.
Dr. Langberg is wrong that the Church is not Christ.
The Church is the Body of Christ. He is the Head and His people are the arms and legs.
Mike Cosper has milked the Mark Driscoll issue in a way that was as exploitative as Driscoll himself. He is a frightening carnal American - his capacity to appeal to the worst in people is terrifying. The style of his podcast was completely inappropriate - from backing his episodes with hip music and gratuitous swearing - complete with "bonus episodes" - what on earth is a bonus episode when one is talking about abuse? He turned the Mars Hill story into a hyped extravaganza which had everything but popcorn delivered to people's front door. It comes as no surprise that someone like Justin is unable to feel this.
Premier Christianity is a laughable organisation - it wouldn't know the truth if it strangled them - it's magazine editor Sam Hailes makes Justin look like Mother Theresa. Yet Justin asks someone on from an organisation (Christianity Today) who has had its own abuse scandal in recent years. The culture there is currently rotten - the CEO is hopeless - overseeing abusive culture - and yet without losing his job - why? And the new editor he has appointed is incapable of seeing when those close to him are corrupt - he is best mates with Beth Moore who tweets 19 tweets about herself and one about God every day - she is the most outstanding example of a personality driven leader surely in the first world - and the editor cannot see it. How can Christianity Today report on abuse when it is this naive and when IT IS ITSELF an abuser? And yet Justin turns to them for a guest on the subject of abuse.
And why is Amy Orr-Ewing on? Because she was close to Ravi Zacharias - because she claims to have had absolutely no idea that he was an exploitative person? I don't believe that. She was friends with Ravi Zacharias because she has the same personality driven addiction to the platform he had. If she could not see his faults it's because she shares his addicted attitudes. Because Amy is blonde and smart she gets away with murder. She is not an honest person - the proof in the fact that she has no independent compass - her thoughts always revolve around what is drawing people - and whatever occupies those she is wooing. She manipulates people by being "the caring woman" - but her so called compassion for people comes ahead of - and instead of - loyalty to God. So she writes books like why God allows suffering because that's her way into people - via their pain. Never mind God's suffering - she specialises in people's suffering. She's the type of leader who uses people's pain to build a platform.
Amy is friends with some of the most powerful and corrupt Christian leaders in the UK.
Others whose immaturity and weak sense of direction have been rewarded with a platform on the basis of their failure in respect of Ravi Zacharias. Why? Why are we rewarding the people who have either been the least aware - or the least responsible? For example Sam Allberry - who while not dishonest EVEN NOW behaves with inappropriate tribal loyalty to powerful people in ministry - showing why he would have been a pushover for someone like Ravi.
Does anybody understand that every person who worked with Ravi Zacharias was chosen by him because he could rely on them being someone who would be loyal? It would appear not. It's the same with every national leader of Hillsong - each was appointed by Brian Houston because he could be SURE that even when on the other side of the earth that they would do his bidding - whether because they are dishonest or capable of being manipulated.
Rachel Denhollander was superb - the two guests I have mentioned would never let an uncouth word like wolf pass from their lips - because actually they don't give a damn - no person is rightly motivated unless their love for love is hatred for evil and their hatred of evil is love for love - those I named have neither. They are only interested in the social dynamics of these issues - and how they affect the machinations of church the organisation - and their place in it - whereas IT WAS OBVIOUS why Rachel was doing what she is doing - she wants to serve God and without fear or favour. God bless her.
Corruption in the UK and in the UK church is now so multi-levelled that it's impossible to dig through to hard ground. We now have a prime minister who spends her first hour in front of the camera expressing absolute loyalty to the previous incumbent - who was fired - not for lying - but for BEING a liar. That's just normal here - no different to republicans who get re-elected by aligning with Trump. The church is no different - it's hard to remember what an honest person even looks like without encountering someone like Rachel Denhollander about once a year - in a video - and she's not British!
I cannot believe that we are watching episodes which due to those I named are a reflection of the same corrupt leadership that leads to abuse as the abusers being discussed. But to be honest the real fool is me - since I know that Premier Christianity is an entirely rudderless group - so eager to be aligned with everyone who is being looked to - it's unreasonable to imagine that a program like this would be anything other than what it was. I don't usually watch anymore - as Justin will tell you I don't write critical comments here regularly - I watched and commented this time for who knows what reason.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least if one day Premier hosts a program about a scandal in which it is directly involved.
I honour and thank the other guests - I am sorry that they shared the show with those I have named - I suggest they don 't appear on any program run by Premier Christianity in the future.
God was powerful and involved enough to orchestrate the demise of the predator doctor yet not enough to prevent the abuse from happening. Right…
My wife was abused by her father for years as a girl. We have spent a number of years coming to terms with this as Christians we have not only overcome the affects of the abuse we are now being used BY GOD to bring healing to other victims...... If you think u can understand God through simplistic moral logic you have NOT MET HIM YET
Your educated by the victims , survivors..
If you folks would stop being sheep, you wouldn’t have to worry about the wolves…
Sounds like a great bumper sticker... not so great for dealing with sexual abuse though.
In the late 1970's I was briefly a member of a group which claimed that its leaders should not be criticized as they were the Lord's anointed. I got away from it quickly on seeing their trend towards dictating all the circumstances of their followers' lives, while holding their leadership to be divine and above criticism. Later, I learned of one of the local leader's divorcing his wife for another partner, and another leader totally dismissing Christianity. On the doctrinal issue, I wonder if one of the problems is the rhetoric of many Protestant preachers against 0bedience to the commandments as "legalism" and "sinless perfectionism", and their alleging that it is inevitable in this life that Christian s will go on sinning. They are contemptuous of those who rejoice in Christ' s power giving them victory over sinful inclinations so that they obey the Lord's command to "Go and sin no more". Martin Luther is reported to have said that a Christian can remain just before God while committing murder and adultery. That is a doctrine of devils, but it has been espoused by many "once saved always saved" Protestants.
You go to the police not the leaders first. Are you kidding me. What if you don't go to church. Church needs to go into the community but my vicars wear their big black robes with their nose in the air and don't go into places outside their structure ..!
While I understand that they are hurt, conclusions are based on just emotions with no thoughts given to reasons. Canceling biblical teachings due to the sins of one man? These people talk like Donatists and Novatians.
"One man"... 🙄 How many will it take, then, because I guarantee there's been more than enough.
I agree with no longer advocating the writings of RZ; I somewhat sadly threw away every one of his books. AO-E said it very well that it would be difficult (at best) to recommend his writings. Though I did over the years find them enormously helpful in discovering 'apologetics', it would be impossible to read them now and not drift to the terrible damage he inflicted on trusting women. But also, we all stand on equal ground before the Lord of all and trust only in the undeserved mercy of Christ.
@@MrCBTman Do you believe that the church never faced these problems? You should really study Donatists and Novatians. They were the first recorded Christian purists who wanted to "cancel" teachings and actions of pastors who made mistakes. Both groups in their purity-seeking pursuits fell into heresy.
If we start canceling the works of teachers due to sinful behaviors, there wouldn't be any teachings left. God works through sinful men. Paul continues to call himself the chief of sinners. Will you remove Paul epistles due to his sinful behaviors?
@@joanbenjamin6345 Will you throw away or not read Psalm because of what David did with Bathsheba? Should we cancel the works of Martin Luther because of his mistakes in later life? I understand that these women were hurt but they are espousing dangerous ideas. They are driven by good intentions but "the hell is filled with good intentioned individuals". God works through sinful men.
@@thomasc9036I just want a majority of Christians to finally admit that religion is unnecessary yo be a moral person and that being a believer does not mean you will be wiser or more decent than someone who isn't.
I love Diane's views, but here is just a minor, theological quibble: the Church and Christ are not THAT different. They are distinct, and yes, the Church is not Christ. But, at the same time, the Body of Christ is the Church. The problem is that the visible church has, from the start, been infiltrated by false believers. Paul, John, Jude and Peter ALL talk about this in the very first generation of the Church. But, the invisible Church, the true Church, is actually very close to Christ, they are His people.
CT has become woke
Whats the alternative here? Celebrate abuse in the Church?
Daniel tells the last beast is Rome. This beast starts with the New Testament. The whole New Testament is the wide "paved" road to a "One World Power". Just go with Tanak. There is no New Testament or Quran or Book of Mormon or Catholic Church. It's all false doctrine. Go with the only doctrine that came down from heaven.
I just have no reason, rational or other wise, to trust or believe the organization that investigated Ravi.
They are in the scandal buisness and make headlines to make money. So no. I don't beleive he did it.
The level of cognitive dissonance to believe God orchestrated the situation for you to share you have been abused while also believing that God did nothing when you were being abused. I will never understand how human beings can hold such harmful understandings of reality.
Isn't that just another way of saying the age of thing of 'If God really loves us, how come there is so much suffering?' ... Thats always there and yet people still believe. Thats the point of faith, believing that somehow a God that is good both transcends all this and is with all this. Nobody says 'because God exists, no bad things ever happen' - the world is full of bad things happening ever day and every single minute of every day.
Churches doing churches things.
We could be help by getting into The Doctrine of the PARACLETE.Perhaps JOHN Thirteen,Fourteen
,Fifteen,Sixteen,Seventeen,ROMANS Eight,One to
Thirty ♨️ 🧭🧬📖🕊 ✝️ 🔥 can be helpful maybe 🤔