I'm a younger board gamer who is often forced to introduce games to new people. Teenagers are not the easiest people to sit down and game with. But over the past couple months I've slowly been working up my groups capacity to handle more "in-depth" rule sets. After countless games of The Mind, Dominion, and Carcassonne we slowly moved into a more complicated realm of Wingspan, Above and Below, and Imperial Settlers. But during one session of Dead of Winter, something changed, this whole group became immersed, making up amazing stories about secret love lives of characters, horrible deeds they've done, and secrets they were keeping from the group. And I think that's the goal, in this age of tech, many people are drawn to video games and movies for an escape, if we can get some high schoolers (or anyone for that matter) to become immersed in these games, we've done something right. Lots of words! Thanks for reading! Long time watcher, first time commenter!
oh we miss table talk soooooo muchhhhh glad the series is back, Rhodney you are amazing, actually when i am down i watch your videos and your positive vibes just channel into me, you are the best
I think my favourite board games don't have a preset story, but provide tools to create a unique narrative with the other players. A good example is Oath. Every playthrough, the players become more familiar with certain cards, and can imagine the personalities and remember the histories of each denizen, site, and relic. There is next to no written story to Oath, but the game produces one from how unique the components are and how expressive the art is.
Story through play is known as 'emergent narrative'. With Oath, keeping the narrative ties in mind helps teach, learn and enjoy the game. You trade secrets but don't lose them. You can receive favors but if you dont return them they run dry.
Oath is absolutely amazing. I'm not sure one can have a proper understanding of how to play if they play only once. Similar to how Mage Knight gets better after a while.
Haven't had the chance to try Oath yet, but I love that kind of emergent narrative. It comes out great in games like Western Legends and Dead Reckoning.
OK, Rodney - long-time watcher here, first-time commenter. ABSOLUTELY board games should, and do, tell stories, but that goes beyond explicit narrative textual elements. I collect children's books from 1900-1940, and those often include stamped or illustrated covers and limited sets of tipped-in full-color plates (usually 4, 8, or 12 pictures per book). A beautifully designed board or components function just like a beautiful color plate: they invite you to imagine a story even before you begin reading the rules. In many ways that's what you're talking about: not the importance of novel-length stories in games, but of the story POTENTIAL of great imagery and aesthetics. They can inspire our imaginations to fill "the spaces in between," just as you said. We learn that as children even before we can read for ourselves, and the stories we create or embellish by connecting images and patterns in our little-kid heads often remain incredibly vivid and powerful memories. I've been playing a lot of puzzle games lately, like Sagrada and The Whatnot Cabinet. They have no explicit narrative at all, but the tiny hint offered to me by the tokens, the colors, even the art style - those encourage me to immerse myself and imagine, "What if?" What if I was back in my childhood, trudging through the Appalachians in the fall, looking for pretty leaves and neat stones? What if I was in a beautiful cathedral with sunlight streaming through the intensely colored stained glass windows? Those aren't whole narratives, but they take me out of my own here-and-now and put me in another reality, just for a few moments. And that counts as story to me, in a really fundamental way.
I've been playing Gloomhaven and it's assorted additions (Jaws of the Lion, Crimson Scales, etc) with the same group for years. We frequently come to decision points in the game where one or the other of us will say, "Well *I* would do X, but I feel like my character would actually do Y". It can seem like the wrong decision if all you're interested in is the easiest path to a win, but I find that sticking to the character's backstory can actually make the gameplay MORE FUN because now we're all having to deal with our characters' weaknesses and strategize around that. And it can make for some pretty memorable skin-of-the-teeth endings or even hilarious TPKs!
I think one of the best board games that you create your own story with very little help from the game itself is Oath. Oath is a blank canvas that gets filled with new unique color each time you play it. It tells stories of triumph and turmoil, as you fight for your claim to the kingdom as chancellor. It's fantastic and I would highly recommend checking it out if you haven't.
When you talk about reading the flavor text on the cards out loud as you play them, this is absolutely something I do. I tend to believe that flavor text adds a lot to the game. A great example of this is the game Fortune and Glory from Flying Frog. Those cards have some fantastic flavor text on them and really adds to what is going on in the game itself. I ask that everyone who plays it reads that text out loud so we can get the whole feeling of the story.
I bought Sleeping Gods based on a friend's recommendation and after watching your video of it. I love the art and even the weight of the box that promises the amount of content inside. The story definitely scratches an itch that I've had ever since playing D&D as a kid and has introduced that to my kids when we play together. Even going through a second playthrough recently, where some of the content we replayed and made different choices, we all still got excited again. For me, stories can definitely accentuate a game.
@@9Nails I definitely recommend watching this channel's video of it and there is also a tutorial / introductory scenario in the box that teaches you most of the rules. It takes a few hours to get used to everything but it's not that hard - my 12 yr old got a good grasp of how to play it.
I love when a game builds the story through play (like Time Stories for example), not necessarily when you have to stop and read 2 pages before starting.
I've always loved this Table Talk series, but it seems like forever ago since I saw one. This is just a request to keep it up. I find it really interesting.
Yes! I love stories with my board games! Above and Below, Near and Far, and Now or Never are some of my favorite examples of this. My family’s new obsession is Clank Legacy: Acquisitions Incorporated. The way we’re all working together to unlock all the quests, cards, and board stickers is truly wonderful, and we’re all invested in the various characters and situations in the game. In-game narratives Drive player interaction, and that’s always welcome at my table!
As someone who ysed to write narrative responses to Watch it Played videos I have a lot of thoughts on the subject. However, in order to prevent my response being long enough to work as the script for its own 30 minute video I'll keep it to this point. I don't think narrative is necessary, one of my favorite games is Terraforming Mars, but I think it helps new players get more invested in games and is part of why Legacy games are as regarded as they are. My family aren't gamers. They don't want to play most of teh games in my ollection but we played Charterstone together because they wanted to see the world unfold. We're about to finish Clank Legacy and they've all told me how excited they are to play the next game because they want to see where the story is going. After that, we're looking to Sagrada Artisans, another Legacy game in hopes of a similar experience. Narrative isn't neccessary, but there are reasons people love it.
Some of my favorite games are story driven: mansion of madness (it’s counterpart LoTR journey in middle earth), TIME stories, bedtime stories, and Charterstone. I’m always so deeply immersed into the game and even change how I play due to story elements. The unfortunate part of some of these games is that it’s not as replayable as others. However, the art of the game is just as, if not more important to me. Certain games, that could have a similar style of gameplay to another that I love, I just can’t get into cuz it doesn’t captivate me enough to want to play. I can definitely say there is a limit on how much story there should b and agree I’ve had a blast with jokes from certain stories made up through gaining a condition(s) in a game and imagining what that would be like or even how a player chose to do something while giving more details of how it happened. One last pieces that also is important to me when playing games (regardless if it has story or not) is music. I’m known throughout my friends and family as the immersive board gamer cuz I always love to have some kind of background music playing when I play. Whether it’s background music that’s already there in a game like mansions of madness or London dread, or even a simple strategy game like Imhotep or Takenoko that I will play music from that culture or time period or even genre if I’m playing something like Covert. I do it so much that it almost feels empty without it now lol
Love audible and a good story in a board game!! One that really caught our attention was The Initiative that builds the story into the puzzles you are trying to solve and add some of those really funny and exciting moments to pieces that you get to discover along the way. We also love Call to Adventure where you build out your own story! You get to choose you past and your future, whether you are good or bad and fulfill your destiny, it's great!
I always enjoy your reading of flavour text! I don't always do it but do feel reading flavour text adds more to my immersion into a them or story that a game is telling.
As a ccg enthusiast, I think ccgs and lcgs are usually very good at telling a story with very little actual storytelling. Legend of the Five Rings is a prime example of this: an entire universe came to life with cards depicting characters, actions, items, events, etc. There was just the right amount of flavor in the game, and it was complemented with story material outside the game, such as short stories in rulebooks, letters to fan according to their clans, storyline tournament events, and of course rpg books and novels. This all meant you could invest yourself in the story according to your preferences, as little or as much as you wanted. In the board game world, I think Plaid Hat and Jerry Hawthorne created amazing stories. While Mice & Mystics was very heavy on reading (and it did feel a bit like work at times), Familiar Tales greatly improved on this with an audio track, and great voice actors. The inclusion of professional (mostly anime) voice actors in storytelling games was also amazing in Forgotten Waters. And finally, there are sometimes games that are a bit of a trainwreck, but that are in a way something you should experience. Android comes to mind. The game is heavy and somewhat clunky, and it rarely hit the table, but our game from 10 years ago still offers us some legendary memories. And even if I have no immediate plans to play again, I am extremely attached to that game, simply because of the story it created for us.
I think the best experiences come from emergent stories that gain life through the people playing and engaging with one another. The ideal for me is a game that gives you a vivid setting and outline, but that you can colour in with stories or experiences as you play.
Love a good story, especially in a co-op. A dry co-op like Pandemic (original) doesn't really appeal to me, but Mansions of Madness, Dead of Winter, Robinson Crusoe, 7th Continent, etc. all do.
So happy to see Table Talk again. For me, if a board game tries too hard to tell me a specific story it takes away from my experience. There's something about coming together with my friends that makes me want more agency in board gaming than even video games. And so I want to engage with a story through play rather than stopping play to tell me something more directly. I love it when a game provides the structure for me and my friends to make a story with. And especially when there are possibly points of "ludonarrative dissonance" I love trying to come up with an absurd story reason for it. For example, we played a game recently of Phantom Ink and a ghost wrote clickity-clackity for their first hint and when it was their turn to answer again they asked if they could repeat a clue. Most movie ghosts/seance scenes don't normally have a ghost repeating an onomatopoeia and the thought of the existence of possibly the most annoying ghost in the world got me bursting with laughter. When the charm of the theme or the in-game justification for the actions diminishes, that's when I tend to lose interest. Pushing cubes and placing cards by itself doesn't do it for me. I need something to tie everything together. For instance, I watched The Bear recently and, so, every time I've played Hibachu afterwards, during the clean up phase of the game where it can get kind of procedural, I start calling everyone "chef" and blast through that part. I will say sandbox games are a little too much for me. I still like games that point towards a goal. Otherwise, it feels too structureless for me. I think games like Oath and Food Chain Magnate do this really well. A lot of choice but a pretty clear, obvious endgoal. I've probably rambled on enough. Hopefully, I've clarified the ways in which I engage with narrative in board games and am looking forward to hearing about others' approaches
I love flavor text. I used to play Magic The Gathering years and years ago and my favorite bits of cards were the quotes at the bottom that described the card, gave a bit of lore, or a quote from the character. One of the ones I remember to this day is from a card called Squee's Toy - "As the horrors closed in on Gerrard, Squee trembled and clutched his toy for comfort. He didn’t know where it came from or why it was so warm, but he was glad he’d kept it near." I loved all the Squee stuff when I was a kid, what a goofy goblin!
Yes! Thanks, Rodney for the video. I enjoy a variety of games, but this helped me articulate that my favorite games are ones the ones that most immerse me in a narrative, regardless of the mechanics or level of complexity or even whether the story is contained within the rules itself or can be created by spontaneous player interaction. I wonder if this is why it bothers me so much when people can't be bothered to use the correct terms for money and resources--calling everything dollars or cubes breaks the immersion.
LOVE this topic! I usually want to just jump into a game and get going if I know how to play. I may read the flavor text on my own during the week before our group gets together as I’m setting up the game just to see what it says because the creators put it there for a reason. However, we have a guy in our group who will read the flavor text of every card, out loud, every time, unless he has that card memorized and then if it’s in your hand and you forget to read it out loud, he will remind you what it says and make sure that we understand how it plays into the game as a whole. While story isn’t as big a deal for me, it does help a little bit when playing the game to aid in knowing where we’re headed so we get a feel of the sense of adventure and that we’re doing it as a “Band of Brothers.” For my friend, it’s all about the story. If we’re playing a game and there’s no story, he has to make up his own. When we play Legendary: a Deck Building Game, he doesn’t just follow the MCU and tell us what happened in those movies, NO, he will take the characters that are in our game and make up his own MCU version of a movie that helps us know why we’re fighting this Mastermind at this time. Every interaction and combination of every card played has to have a reason; like Thor throwing Mjölnor to smash the skull of a henchman enabling Deadpool to burst through the scene and attack Thanos for a catastrophic blow. As for the box, We can’t help but judge a game by its cover! Gloomhaven, Horrified, Mysterium, World War Hulk, Dungeon Draft, The Mind … the cover gets you to take it off the shelf at the store or click the image on the screen to learn more about it. Either tell me the story in the box with the art on the box, or use a white box with black letters for the name and leave it a mystery. Either way, “100% of boring ads are useless”
For me it largely depends on the group. I've had a great time with friends playing board games where the main focus of the evening was just "being together with friends". I don't think I would've paid too much attention to any story. When I play with only my wife as a gaming partner, then story is much more important, as we only play co-operative board games (or semi co-op, as is the case now with Gloomhaven). For solo games, a good story really elevates a game to the next level. But here, also games like Lost Expedition or Arkham Noir work for me, where you basically tell your own story based on the cards/events. About the cover art: I know that my brother and I spent hours looking at the cover of HeroQuest, always coming up with new ideas of how the characters ended up there and what would happen next. Same for the expansions. HeroQuest really had great cover artwork.
I actually seek out games right now that have story or campaign elements, but the best ones are ones with strong characters. One of my top favourites currently, the Arkham Horror Card Game is a favourite because the deck building system and the ongoing narrative help the characters come alive. Now, some Arkham characters will always have certain traits in mind whenever I see them, such as ex-boyfriends or weapon preferences, because those elements came up in when telling the story one memorable time.
Thanks for your great work, Rodney. I’m more like Paula and you, I’m an actor as well, so being immersed in a story is by far what attracts me the most to games. My favorite is Arkham Horror Lcg, and even more so since The Edge of the Earth campaign. A lot of Arkham players have complained that there was to much text and got them distracted from the game in that campaign, for me it was the complete opposite. I was immersed in the game even more so then the other campaigns.
Personally I enjoy a narrative but I feel like I gravitate towards *solo* games with a narrative, since I’m already taking my own time with the experience. I’m not sure if it’s because of the nature of my main gaming group, but narrative, even flavor text seems to slow down any game night. However, because our group is made up of creative-types (all writers, artists, etc) we seem to automatically (never with premeditated intention) start creating our own narrative. Often light, often humorous, but whether we’re playing anything from Catan to Clank to Great Western Trail, there’s often a spontaneous narrative we form. Almost like some home-brew head canons in story form, all making the experience even more interactive & enjoyable. I never really thought of this/noticed we did this on the regular until watching this video!
I prefer the game providing the opportunity to create a story through the actual game play with an intriguing theme, solid mechanics, variability, competitive player interaction and more. A paragraph of narrative every now and then so it doesn't disrupt the game flow is probably the max. My favorite and most memorable games of all time allow to have these epic experiences where a story is kind of played out by all the players at the table with a little bit of flavor text sprinkled throughout - Western Legends and Dead Reckoning. Great topic and keep this Table Talk series going!
I love this! This video is thorough and compelling - please continue this series! I don’t know if it is a full lengthy story that I look for, but rather those little moments in a game where the gamers around the table take something from the theme of the game and use it to inform their decisions in a way, especially in a fun and humorous way.
Great video! I love flavor text on cards whether it is a bird fact on Wingspan or a description in Arkham Horror. I just like feeling immersed in the aesthetic and the setting of a game. I often listen to soundtracks of war movies when I play war games or fantasy movies when I play fantasy games. I like all the little things that help transport you to the setting.
If I think back on my most memorable moment in a board game, it would probably be from Pandemic Legacy Season 1. If you've played, you know the one. That moment didn't come from long chapters of written narrative, yet it was absolutely the climax of a narrative arc. It was a plot twist where our entire group had to sit back from the table for a long moment and process what had just happened. I think a narrative arc helps create the most memorable moments in games, and you don't need a lot of written words to make that narrative real to the players.
Rodney, my dude! This was an AWESOME video! Great topic and I love how you are making it interactive with our comments. Good sir, you are a man after my own heart when it comes to board games. I absolutely love narrative in my games, or the choice to make up my own when given a few tidbits. I like to get immersed into the game's world, to make it more memorable to me. Games like the Dead of Winter series has the Crossroads cards that give a little event with a choice one or more players have to make, altering the round overall. Another fantastic game I love to play is Call to Adventure. In that one, players essentially create their character while playing the game. From choosing their backstory to different quests they have embarked on, players at the end of the game are encouraged to come up with their character's story from the choices they have made during the game. Love the whole mechanic of it.
I think it is important to distinguish between narrative and story. I would argue games like wingspan and Castles of Burgundy tell a story with their components and mechanics. Narrative I think of as written language story telling. IMO, all good games either have or help players develop good stories.
I used to play High School Drama with friends and it’s not the best game mechanically talking, BUT we would go 100% storytelling and explain everything that happened to our characters and that was just so much fun!
I'm really interested in how Nemesis had RPG elements added to it. That is by far my favorite game, and I also enjoy playing RPGs with my friends. A marriage of the two sounds incredible!
This sure makes me appreciate the arkham lcg even more. Rewarding players for staying true to their backgrounds, like Monterey Jack getting more resources for exploring. Our group was originally mostly roleplayers before we got sucked into board games, so narrative is pretty essential for us at least.
I love games with an emerging narrative that the players are telling. In a game like Tapestry which at its core is a cube pushing euro, the stories that emerge in our sessions leads to some really memorable moments, particularly around the Technology cards. Always a good laugh to be had when people reach to the stars on the exploration track and then on their next action, invent the battery.
lol - I "love" hearing that you all are looking to FIND those stories too. Because I imagine it would be just as easy to not "see" any of those stories, if you weren't looking for them.
@@WatchItPlayed A huge part of it is definitely the art and presentation of the game. I have been focused on the the resource management puzzle of games like this before and missed any thematic or narrative piece that emerged during the session. It can be refreshing to take a step back and see what story each of us are telling with our tableaus. Tableau Talk, if you will :)
I love flavour text - it generally gives me something to read whilst people take their turns. I lean more towards the Euro style of play, but I’m starting to appreciate the story driven games. The Adventures of Robin Hood was my first story driven board game but I’ve been a Dungeon Master for seven years so… I guess I do go for story games! Near and Far and Stuffed Fables are two others that have my interest to finish stories. It doesn’t mean I won’t make the story as I go along with things, putting on voices for text, or embodying a character if it’s appropriate. Fury of Dracula for example. I like having that table story whilst acting as Dracula and the party coming across me and panicking that they weren’t ready! The games are what we make of them, I think. And a lot of games don’t have a convenient story to use. It doesn’t mean i won’t invent one as I go.
Great Vid Rodney, Been watching since the first ep of table talk really happy to see it back. I think on this topic I am definitely with Mathew, I believe story driven games are largely group driven which is why I havent had the chance to play many of them, mainly because usually these types of games take quite abit longer to play and arnt as replayable. I feel the stories made during the game between the players is what makes games memorable. This being said though, I must admit games that have interesting art and decent flavour text open the door for those types of player moments a little more. My most memorable game night are those when everyone is standing up around the table fully focused on what another player will do on their turn reciting inside jokes that we only just made together 10 minutes ago and pronouncing character names incorrectly. Maybe if i tried gaming with a different group i might enjoy story games more but as a guy who just loves playing board games the memories i make around the table is more than enough for me.
Flavor text is a beautiful addition to many games. If i am playing a game with a lot of downtime in between turns, I am usually reading all the flavor text in front of me as it helps me immerse into the game, or.. feel that I am now apart of the game. Story telling in board games is one of the main draws to me, and that is coming from my first modern board game being an adventure story book game. My first modern board game was Stuffed Fables and that was the start of my love for board games, and I can't seem to imagine a game without some form of story telling. I tend to notice missed opportunities for when a game could have had a theme that was promoted by adding a bit of flavor text, and not to say a game is a let down for it, but it is that important to me as my love for a game can be determined on how I felt playing the game. Did I actually feel like I was exploring the Lost Ruins of Arnak; did I feel I was escaping a city with a lot of money in Escape Plan; or am kicking can, swinging, and being witty like Spider-man when I play my cards in Marvel Champions.
First, I love Table Talk. To answer the question I love a board game with a story. I find that when I play a game that doesn’t have a “story” that it guides you through, I end up creating my own narrative.
My daughter Violet likes a little bit of storytelling "as long as it's not lots of paragraphs that you have to read before continuing with the story" (like in Mice & Mystics), but when we tried playing Dungeons & Dragons for the first time, the chance to tell her own story was much more enjoyable. For me, I do like storytelling, and whenever it's presented I'll try and get into it as much as I can - adding some atmosphere and voices (Betrayal at House on the Hill, Journeys in middle Earth). But I know my family are less keen on it so it's usually short-lived. Great episode!
For me, and I may be weird, the concept of "uncanny valley" applies. I'm familiar with this term with like, robots, where people like robots that look a little like people, but if they are too close to looking like people but obviously aren't, we get creeped out by them. I apply this to narrative games. I love being part of the story, but to do that, I have to make the choices. The only game that gets away with this combo is a true RPG, like D&D. Anything that tries to be an RPG that isn't - something like a game relying on choose your own adventure type decisions to take a branch of a story tree, is just uncanny RPG for me. There's the illusion that I'm creating the story, but I'm really just playing out a set of pre-written narratives. I honestly hate that. So I need a game to be farther away from narrative to enjoy it. This can be a narrative-light game, like Scythe: Rise of Fenris, or a non-narrative game in an immersive world (like Wayfarers of the South Tigris, Concordia or Through the Ages), or an abstracted game, like Castles of Burgundy or Century: Spice Road. The closer I get to RPG that's not RPG, the less I"m interested, until we get all the way there.
Your recollection is a walk for me down memory lane... so many years had gone by... your kids must be all grown-up. Back to the topic - it really depends on the game. Uno, Monopoly, Bang!, Dominion etc - either the story isn't there at all or unimportant. However, games like Folklore, Descent, Ghost Stories - yes, getting into the game with a story (role-playing) makes immersive and that added memorable. Rodney, I want to take the opportunity to thank you for the many years of fun watching your videos - thank you.
I really missed these videos. I do not need the story in games but I like it if the story is not forced down my throat. Sometimes you just want to play a game and do not try to set up stories and sometimes you want to tell one, but often during good games, stories are marked by the players. I still remember my first C:DMD scenario when my burning character beat the last health of Cthulhu with his fists. Also, I really love small flavour text on cards - especially in Enchanters where each pair of cards makes a new one describing your character.
I'm a creative writer. Creating stories took my whole life. I love writing, drawing, and playing boardgames since I was a kid. Even simple games such as Monopoly or Snakes and Ladders intrigued me because they provided a sort of mini-world where I can craft a story with. That's also the reason why I love euro games the most. They might look boring to some, but to me, they're like a systematic worlds where people struggled to live and gain their life. (I personally prefer flavor narrative texts on cards rather than on books, and yeah, euro games with story cards are my favorites, like Oh My Goods story expansions!) I guess that's also where my habit of making custom standees and story generators for every games possible came from. :D
For me, it's a spectrum. Theme can add an element that helps create story, adding context. 'Lost Ruins of Arnak' delivers a narrative through the art and mechanics (such as the card market going from mostly equipment you bring to artifacts you find). Some games create narrative through emergent gameplay. One example is Pandemic Legacy: Season One: a lot of the story in that game emerged from gameplay, not the story text (often only a single card with two or three paragraphs). The excitement came from it being our personal story, unique to us. Over the course of months in that game, successive outbreaks had rendered South America a crisis zone that we resorted to quarantining off, feeling we had no choice but to protect the rest of the world. Then a mission came up requiring us to search to find elements for a cure to one of the diseases...in the heart of the hot zone we had abandoned! Worse, we had just lost the specialist we had selected to be an expert in entering the most dangerous area. It was an exciting, tense, and thrilling story that all came out of the game and our interaction with it. Not every game needs a story, obviously. The Azul series probably wouldn't see any benefit with the addition of one. It, like games such as Dominion or Wingspan, have a theme, but not really a narrative. They give you context for what your doing, but they don't offer up a narrative any more than watching a hockey game does. Yes, there may be a notion of 'what an amazing thing happened in that game', but it's not the same as an actual narrative. On the other hand, games like Legends of Andor, Gloomhaven or 7th Continent create stories both by presenting you with text to read AND by gameplay that reinforces the story. An upcoming game, The Isofarian Guard, intends to tell a fairly involved story...but still will feature extensive player agency to let you make the story your own. The game's narrative informs your gameplay and sweeps you up in the story. And, of course, some games walk the line: Scythe famously has factions, but it also has decision cards where you can make a choice from three options. The game could have chosen just some simple icons, but instead, it makes them story choices....and the context for those choices actually meant something to me. Now I'm not just getting two metal and losing a popularity, but instead I'm confiscating a villages farm machinery for my own needs. Some might not consider that narrative choice relevant to them, but to me, the choices in things like that or Gloomhaven's encounter cards do actually have us engage in roleplaying. And I like those elements.
The best thing about the WiP team is how much variety they have in taste and style to approach gaming, and I'm all in for it. Some games I never bat an eye to it , thanks to comments from someone on the team made me check it for a second time and give it a chance, The Crew for example, I'm not really into coop, but how Mathew talks about it and his review, I tried it and discovered I did really liked the game, so thank you all for what you do for the hobby and us fans.
Hey, Rodney! Funny enough, your original series of MoM1E is what sold me on getting that game. I’m big on narrative in board games and often do things to enhance the story, even if it costs me a win. Personally, I view board gaming as an experience to be had rather than a competition to win. Nemesis, for example, is a very difficult game to win, but my friends and I agree that even if you lose, it’s often in spectacular fashion and leaves us with an incredible story to tell… I mean win or lose, ask anyone how their game of Nemesis ended and it sounds ridiculous in the best way! That’s the kind of board game experience I’m after… like books or movies, I enjoy board games most when it whisks me away to experience something extraordinary. That being said, I’m also not opposed to games that are more mechanical, but LONG form euro games are not my thing. A short form euro to me is fun and exciting like solving a puzzle, but too much of a good thing backfires for me in this case. Long form narrative game? If the immersion is there, I’m on board, 100%!
I've just started to get into board gaming as a hobby, and here recently, I've been drawn to games that have built-in story aspects. A few months ago, I discovered red raven games, and I've really fallen in love with the way Ryan Laukat designs and incorporates stories into his games. My two favorite games right now are Above and below and near and far. The art style and use of a story book are the two big factors that bring these games to life for me.
This is such an interesting topic that boils down to "what makes board games enjoyable for you?" I think it depends on "how your experiences on board games developed or evolved". I started playing hobby board games since 2012, and you guessed it, I more or less been watching your channel since then. So initially, I loved story driven games like Mice and Mystics or Lord of the rings LCG, which were uploaded on WatchItPlayed where I really had fun watching it being played. However, I eventually moved on as it was extremely hard to play these kind of games with my group as it requires continuous plays to fully enjoy the game. After experiencing euro games, I'm pretty much like what Naveen said, the theme is important not the narrative. I realized this with my friends the first time we played Barrage. Before, we always thought resources as something we buy and use up but Barrage lets us have the resources (the machinery) returned after being used. On top of that, the way the water moves was also something phenomenal. I love board games that have "convincing" mechanisms, mechanisms that are harmonious to the theme of the game. If not, I would prefer a game to have absolutely no theme at all, like the GIFF series or pretty much abstract games. However, this is also due to my experience in board games. I liked playing chess since 6 years old and to me board games were 2 player abstract games, which is probably why I still enjoy them. Santorini, War Chest, Yinsh are so much fun. Finally, I do love games that driven by narrative but that allows players to create them. Absolutely love Dune: Imperium because of the battles. Even though the battle is only a small part of the game (although the most important), the preparation, the battle itself, and the element that you get to start with additional power if you won the previous battle on that location, they are all very thematic and players can imagine an enormous battle field that changes almost every game. Basically, I think I enjoy these kind of games because they were most fun for the conditions that I was in. If I ever meet someone that can regularly play a story driven game, I'm sure that I will eventually like such games as well. Hopefully then, I will be able to play Gloomhaven haha XD
I love Table Talk! ❤️ I would describe myself as an omnigamer. As such, I appreciate storytelling in games, but I don't need it to enjoy the experience. That said, thinking back on my most memorable gaming experiences, they all involved a story element of some kind. Our friend group still laughs about the soldier abandoning the scientist to his fate in Nemesis. Oath does an amazing job of building a narrative through game play without actual written story, so long as you're willing to think about how the mechanics of cards function thematically. It's brilliant! My favourite play sessions of Gloomhaven were the characters we lent our own back stories to, likewise with 7th Continent. I think the potential is there in a lot of games if you are so inclined and it adds a really fun and interesting layer to the experience. Great topic.
Love to see the return of this series! I must say, I really love and appreciate the extra bits of production value and effort put into this (as with all your projects)! Hearing from the whole team's differing perspectives, setting up seamless transitions, and even the ad break felt natural and within the flow of the video. Awesome job! Here are some of my thoughts on the topic (warning in advance, I can get a bit long-winded at times 😆): I am definitely somewhere in the middle of the spectrum for appreciation of story in my games. It certainly isn't essential, and I enjoy plenty of heavier Euros like Monique and Naveen were describing, but I have come to realize a little bit goes a long way for me. In abstract games, I can often feel disconnected and disengaged; an example that comes to mind looking at my shelf is Cryptid; despite loving the puzzle that game presents the theme is so threadbare it sometimes dissuades me from playing it over other similar contenders with a just a slightly better executed theme (like Search for Planet X). On the flip side, games that are purely (or largely) narrative are difficult for me to get into, because I am ultimately looking for a more interactive and 'thinky' experience when I sit down to play games; a recent example of a game that I bounced off of for this reason was Sleeping Gods (which I also disliked their combat non-rewards system, but that's a different topic 😋 ). Another point I'd like to reflect on a bit from your video: when you state we're operating under the assumption we all want the games to be 'good/functional', regardless of story. I've found for myself that there are some games that mechanically, would not be enough for me to get them to the table, but because of their story tying in so well with their mechanics, I get more engaged playing it. The perfect example is one you already used in the video: Eldritch Horror; mechanically, it's a bit too swingy, dependent on die rolls, and sometimes repetitive. But when you add in the story, all of a sudden I don't have a generic +1 die to some stat checks, I have SLEDGEHAMMER, and I'm going to use it to cave in that Shoggoth's face. This is one of the games where I do ask players to read the flavor text on their encounter cards, because the story is a big part of the experience for me here. This does bring me to my central point, one touched on slightly in the video but I'd to dig deeper into, since it is the way I most appreciate story in games: when it is closely tied to the mechanics. To use an example from your video, the character that is always prone to fighting; my ideal games take that character's story and then design him mechanically so that he is frequently incentivized to be in combat (or vice versa). It is when this is done particularly well that you get some of my favorite games. Easy example is my favorite game of all time, Spirit Island; the Invaders are coming to this island and Blighting it, the native Dahan are all but powerless to stop it, and you play as a literal force of nature in an attempt to stem the tide, sometimes by brute force, sometimes by subtle suggestion and manipulation, and others by outright terror. Some of these things are told to me, but most I experience through the gameplay and mechanics of the game, as it was designed. Similarly with the Spirits (player characters), each one has mechanics that reinforce their theme, and vice versa. This immerses me deeply in the game I'm playing, and makes for some very memorable stories. Another category I want to carve out a mention for: IP games. While many, especially in the past, have been somewhat obvious cash-grabs with little thought put into them, in the last decade I think we've seen a big boom in fantastically well designed and executed IP Games; some examples that come to mind are Star Wars Rebellion, War of the Ring, almost all of the Dune games of recent memory (and the OG as well), and even the new Pandemic system games (which I was highly skeptical of upon announcement), have served their IPs well while still delivering an engaging mechanical experience. IP games can help players too because it 'saves them some work' of having to understand a new world or story and just puts them into one they already know well; this can result in some of the best moments and personal stories to be told, that seem to be the peak of all gamer's experience with stories (Star Wars Rebellion is particularly good at this) And for a final note, wargames and historical games in general. While I greatly appreciate all the hard works that goes into these games and am glad so many enjoy them as they do, this is a genre that I struggle to play. For me, gaming is largely about escapism; getting away from my troubles and spending some time (be it alone or with friends) with a fun experience that will keep my brain turning. Unfortunately, these games, depicting real-world conflicts and the very real anguish of very real people, make it hard for me to achieve that, and can often just remind me of the things I'm trying to escape from. Just to reiterate: I do not begrudge these games' existence, or anyone who creates or enjoys them; I think they are a worthy lens into the past and, in almost every case, are extremely mindful and respectful of the reality of the conflicts they are depicting. It's just a genre that doesn't quite work for me, for the reasons mentioned above. That being said, it seems only fair to mention a couple of games that are the exception to this (both WiP recommendations as it turns out): first is Watergate; it's a theme I don't feel strongly about, but it masterfully executes on it, and the mechanics of the game are just so tight and enjoyable, and packed into a relatively short playtime, that I just love to play it again and again. The tug-of-war mechanic in particular is something so unique and clever; I hope we'll see more games using this. The other (in true WiP fashion) is a COIN game, specifically Andean Abyss; this is one I rarely get to play, but due to my connection to the source material, I do enjoy experiencing; it makes me feel like I have a better understanding of the forces at play in that conflict (something I suspect many other players of the genre enjoy as well) Well there you are! Apologies for the long-winded response, I tend to get carried away 😅 . Just goes to show you had a lot of great talking points in the episode! 😋 😄 Cheers!
I don't need games to tell a story to enjoy them, but I do enjoy an emergent, player-created story over paragraphs of text. This isn't unique to thematic or Ameritrash games, as I've had stories come out of the driest euros. I think games are more emotionally engaging and memorable when a story emerges. I still remember when you (Rodney) played Zombicide on this channel. Doug's heroic sacrifice, going out in a blaze of glory, has stuck with me all these years! I think another point not talked about in the video is the stories we create of the play group itself during the game. These are stories of that time someone took that impossible risk and succeeded, when that co-op came down to the very last card and our hearts were pounding as it was revealed, or someone seemed down and out and came from behind to win the game. Stories evoke emotion and create powerful experiences. That's why I like games to enable us, as players, to create stories as we play - whether in game or in group - that we can remember and tell for years to come.
Great video! I had an almost identical experience to Paula, except Dominion and Betrayal at House on the Hill. I own Dominion, but I credit Betrayal as getting me into the hobby, as well as most of my game group. We later picked up Betrayal Legacy, and to this day it remains one of the most bonding experiences we've had. We've tried other games with story, but none of them had that "just right" amount of story that Betrayal did. There is also an element of timing, some days the group isn't in the mood for anything except moving elements on the table. It's important to be open to your group's limits when it comes to story elements, to play to that limit, and to know the right time. I love the Crew, but could never get anyone interested in the paragraph of story before each game.
I think Flavor Text needs the reader to also make it sound engaging... not easy for many as it sounds more like them reading a sentence back in middle school because they were told to by the teacher. That really detracts from the flavor. I personally like to add a voice or animate the words to bring it to life and, well, hopefully it is entertaining to the listeners!
In my experience, I found that story telling has not been an important factor in determining my enjoyment of a board game. For example, I played through Jaws of the Lion, and, even though it's one of my favourite games, I found myself just skimming through the storyline and really only focusing on each scenarios' Special Rules section. Although, I am interested in finding a board game that provides a strong and engaging narrative, I just have not found one yet in the limited number of games I have played. Also, I do imagine that board games with lots of story would definitely benefit from audio narration applications, like Foreteller, to take on some of that chore. I Love that Table Talk series is back, and look forward to more discussion on this wonderful hobby!
This is a very interesting topic. During the last 9 years of my life from the age 14 and 25, my view of games have changed a lot. I always loved games, but did not have many options in my childhood (Monopoly and Catan only), but we had lots of fun with those too. I believe the first and most important thing is, who do you play the games with. That is the most important. After that, for me it is a mix, I mean story wise and mechanic wise. I do like games with a narrative, but I really like games like Go or Chess too. I think the most important is the quality of the game. Now for example I really liked Gloomhaven Jaws of the Lion, but the narrative part is okay, but I sense no real change in a story, I just feel playing a dungeon after a dungeon and kill monsters. My first board game I bought at the age of 16 was Legends of Andor. I still remember that game ( I got too excited about games and traded after completing it, which I think I regretted back then). That game was a monster kill game, but I still remember we had a sense of a growing story, but maybe it was too long ago and I don't remember correctly. To conclude, I believe first and foremost the people you play with, are the most important (I like to play with my closest friends or people that I know, so basically people are more important than the games we play). After that it really depends on the quality of the game and my mood. Sometimes I love just to think and see the patterns and feel very tense playing a match of Go, or sometimes I really like to go on and fight monsters or play and economic game. But I must say I like games with theme, especially historical theme, which I can relate. For example, one of my favourite periods in history is the Renaissance, and as so playing the game Pax Renaissance, when I can, I just really like it, and it gives a really good narrative (after you have incorporated the rules and you can start thinking about strategy :D )
I think the best game in my collection that's able to do a good job with storytelling and gameplay balance is Call To Adventure. Not only am I picking the cards for my character during the game for points, but I'm also able to imagine how my character is able to accomplish his goals, like "a hunter kills a dragon and becomes heir to the throne." In addition, the artwork on the game's cards makes it feel like you'll looking at a picture storybook while playing it, and the game isn't buried in a fat rulebook. Finally, once the game is done, I could make a story about the character I made in a notebook somewhere to continue at a future. In summary, I originally bought Call To Adventure for help with making characters for my own personal stories due to its gameplay, but it also introduced me to a good storytelling experience by just playing the game. As far as other experiences with storytelling in board games go, campaign and role-playing games like Gloomhaven and D&D are what I can think of, but I tend to stay away from big box campaign games due to the rulebooks feeling like that I have to read a textbook just to understand the game, and ever while playing it, in the middle of the game, I'll be forced to read another 5 pages of text to get the next objective during the game. I'm not a fan of most games that buried you with long lines of text every 5 minutes since it prolongs the game too much, and if I have limited time to play the game, I don't need to know "this NPC that isn't in this scene is going to a town" type things.
Yay, Table Talk is back! Games that have strong stories or themes are good, but I think my favorite are games that enable you to tell your own story. Shut Up & Sit Down talked about how Twilight Imperium is a game for telling stories and making memories, and it is SO TRUE. For how infrequently I'm able to get it to the table, a lot of my most memorable gaming stories come from TI and my experiences with the other players. We're teed up with the theme and faction back stories and mechanics, but it's ultimately the players that makes the stories come to life. I still talk about my greatest defeat in that game, 3 or 4 years later, haha. I also wish more games had something like the Crossroads system from the Dead of Winter. This leans more into the game trying to tell a story rather than the players, but having a series of random events each turn that might not even happened based on what you've done up to that point just added some extra life to that game. That mechanic in particular was one of my favorites. On the flip side to all of this, I'm sometimes not a fan when a game is trying to tell a specific story. Specifically, I think of Dune: House Secrets.... the concept sounded fun and interesting, but as we played, I very quickly started to have a strong suspicion that our actions ultimately made very little difference in what was happening and how things played out. Even if we managed to fail a mission-end task, the game would step in and ensure the desired outcome would happen, even without our help. I might have been less disappointed if I knew what the game was like going in, but at the time, it felt wholly unsatisfying to go into a game thinking we were going to be major drivers in steering/shaping a story only to find that our participation was entirely optional and our actions irrelevant.
So excited to see a new Table Talk! I like games with and without stories. A good story just adds to the game and makes it more memorable. But too much text can become a drag if it’s not holding your attention. Apps like Forteller where professional voice actors read out the text is the best way to experience long narrative games.
Wow, I feel like the guy from Jumanji... used to follow your channel about 8 years ago, got married, had kids and stopped playing board games... just recently started playing my mage knight and it all came back to me... started watching your old videos again and ooooh boy, have things changed around here (where are your kids and who are these new faces???) well, I’ll catch up and continue supporting you!
Hi Rodney, Thanks a lot for another great video. I'm a bit late commenting on this one but I thought I'd write a few words anyway. I am a huge fan of story-driven games. Like you mentioned about yourself, getting something more than the mechanics from a game is a big draw for me. Of course, there should also be some good mechanics to make it enjoyable to play too. I love Arkham Horror LCG, Mansions of Madness and Journeys in Middle Earth. I don't mind taking the time to read the text - it makes me feel as if I am reading a book where we are playing the characters and making all the decisions. What a great way to enter the world! I also try to always read the flavour text on cards out loud on any game I play. I do think that this really helps immerse players into the game. However, I also love heavy euros, and in games that are less story-driven, like Terraforming Mars, it is probably less fun for the other players if I read everything out so I keep it to a minimum in these cases. Games like Nemesis are amazing in the way they set the scene for you, but the story itself comes out through the play and needs no story text. That to me shows genius in game design. Anyway, sorry for the long comment. Thanks for all the hard work you do!
This is a great topic! If I may present a somewhat hot take. I think that many people when talking about "narrative" in there board games interchange two actual kinds of narrative. This is also common in the video game world, but the kind of narrative you present in, say, Arkham Horror: The Card Game, is distinctly different from a narrative that people create is something like Root. It's the difference between storytelling (the game telling you a story) and emergent narrative (the act of play generating the narrative) and I think both are valid and have their places! In fact, this dichotomy is the literal definition of a TRPG, where the DM represents the storyteller and the player represent actors emerging a narrative together. But I digress, I think the main trouble people get into is when they are expecting one of these narrative over the other. For example, if I went into AH looking to build my own story with characters from my imagination, and then was presented with a story already built for me, I can imagine being disappointed. And if I was prepared a well paced and thoughtful narrative with twists and turns, and then went into some EuroGame where I had to "make" my own story out of it, I can imagine being disappointed as well. It comes down to expectations and preferences, but either approach is valid!
Love a game with a strong theme that lends itself to generating your own stories-Obsession being a favorite. Also really enjoy the more narrative-heavy games that are more and more popular.
Lately I have been stuck on Cthulhu DMD, which reminds me of a Choose your own adventure story, where as its the same book with a ton of different story avenues to get to the end that has 3 or more different outcomes. With DMD its die early, die late or win.
I like anything that gets people together round a table, that being said i have a mix of story and plain board games but do have the habit of adding a characteristic to my team/army/group of meeples to enhance play in Blood Rage give my clan a specific way to talk, in Western Legends really hamm up the cowboy talk or even in Lords of Vegas my casinos all have a charm of their own. Playing RPG's has probably guided me down this path and enhances my enjoyment of the game i am playing. Always love a story too as long as it fits with the game or drives the narrative.
Thanks for this great, interesting topic and awesome video! Your work is so polished and well made. This really called to mind a series of videos about games (the first I can remember actually) called "Boardgames with Scott" created and "starring" Scott Nicholson. I should search and see if they're still on RUclips! Anyways I remember him bringing out the point of "when does a game tell it's story?" What that meant was not necessarily a "narrative-style" game but more from the perspective of becoming familiar enough with a game -it's mechanincs, it's setting, it's stratgies-that instead of referring to rules minutiae and how to do something in the game, you're now immersed in following through with what exactly the game is trying to "tell" you. Maybe re-creating an historical scenario (war? city building? etc) or becoming the best billionaire mogul, or attracting the most cats to your amazing quilt. That really opened my eyes to how important learning the nuances of game can be and then teaching others to see that as well. Rather than just another "oh look a new game!" (Does this make sense?) THAT being said I DO love a good actual story in a game - we just played 2 rounds of Forgotten Waters for the first time - same scenario (the first one) and both were completely different experiences! Different group, different player number, but also different choices that led to different events! Was realllly fun! Wow I'm typing WAY too much - sorry I really connected with this video - thank you again for making this! Loved it
I love narratives in board games, especially games specifically centered around it like trudvang, stars of akarios and lord of the rings journeys in middle earth. I also love board games like nemesis that gives me the ability to tell a special kind of story that’s not scripted, but isn’t necessary to enjoying the game. If I want to be just tactile and make the best choices and just play it as a game or create a world for 2hrs with my friends, I can do so. But narrative isn’t the end all be all for games. Sometimes, I just want to game and other nights I wanna be immersed in them. It’s really amazing how flexible board games can be and how deep or not you really want to dive into the worlds they create.
I love the overall sentiment here - there is no one right answer for how much story a game needs. Having been at The Op for a number of years now, story is something we talk about a lot. For our IP based games, even abstract games like Checkers or Chess, we put a lot of thought into how to make the mechanics match well with the story in order to best serve the fans. Sometimes, we go narrative heavy if we think the target audience for the IP will be open to that, for other games we'll focus more on art, flavor text, and subtle nods to the fans. For example, the Critical Role fan base is familiar with RPGs and getting into character, so they might be much more open to creating their own narratives (a la Chaz) than some other fan bases that may have less overlap with the tabletop community. Sometimes, fans just want to relive their favorite story, not write a new one. When looking at inventor games, or new games to buy, I think a lot about how likely the audience (customers or my gaming group) might respond to art and theme because this really does impact which games hit the table often. Dog Park was a slam dunk with one of my gaming groups because everyone in it has a dog they love. Unsurprisingly the group became very invested in which dogs they walked and what treats and toys those pups preferred. I find in that particular group, theme comes alive more. I tend to be mechanics focused as it is such a big part of my day job, but having friends who read the flavor text and look closely at the art helps me experience things I might miss otherwise. Another game group I play in is all game designers, and the discussion there tends to focus on mechanics. Interestingly, a different type of story tends to emerge, relative to bold strategies, hard luck moments, or outright backstabbing - the stories we create are based on the play pattern, not the theme. Sometimes the best, most enduring, game group stories emerge from a big moment in the player interaction. I'd argue that hidden role games offer incredible story opportunities with just a bit of story text in the rules, and a game play that creates an intense player interaction based on mistrust, I still reference moments from these games years later - but rarely remember any flavor text from games.
Great post. My crew goes both ways. When we play games like Above and Below we read the story using character voices and even use sound effects. However with some games we skip the flavor text altogether. It depends on how the story adds to the experience.
Great video and an interesting topic, Rodney. I just got into this hobby last year, so I don't have too much experience with stories in boardgames yet, but the idea is enticing. I've bought Betrayal and Gloomhaven jaws of the lion, but haven't had a chance to play yet. It'll be interesting to see how it goes!
Last week I played Lords of Waterdeep for the first time with my wife, who is not a regular board gamer. Ultimately I was ignoring flavor text and not naming colored cubes "rogues", "wizards", "clerics" and "fighters" just not to make the game nerdy. And... my wife ultimately LOVED Lords of Waterdeep, and even asked me if it'd be a good idea to play it with our daughter :)
I think at this stage in my life, I've come to the conclusion that the story IS the game. 100 times out of 100 I would rather lose a game and create a unique experience, than win a game by figuring out the meta. It's more of a thrill to follow a character's impulses and lose colorfully, than to drag that character through a generic strategy and win. Nemesis and Zombicide come to mind as I write this. Thanks so much for the discussion! I'm so glad gaming is a "Thing" for people like us.
It’s easy for me to find and plug into the narrative aspect of a game involving a character in the midst of an adventure or a mystery and I love that. I can put myself in their shoes and live out the story. Campaign games that develop my character and the game’s world are some of my favorites. But just as enjoyable (maybe more so) are the narratives created by the players of a game. Something like Twilight Imperium or other civilization builder becomes such an awesome story telling experience just from the interactions, battles and political happenings between everyone. Those stories are so memorable even though the game itself may not be telling the majority of the story. I love games with narrative in either of those types. But that’s not the only selling point for me. Art and theme are big drivers for me too. Wingspan was the perfect example. I love the art and I’m a birdwatcher as well, so the art and little facts on each card does just as much to hold my interest and draw me in.
Definitely read flavor text for myself; sometimes read it aloud, especially if that's something that the table is enjoying. Again will point to Obsession as a great example of a game where you can make a lot out of the flavor text and come up with your own stories.
As for ways a game has story that you may have missed, my mind immediately goes to the game "Once Upon a Time", which is in it's very concept a 'story telling game'. So you're telling the story and (in large part) that IS the game. I love that game a lot because it is very interactive. That said, I don't have many 'story' games outside of that one. I think one of the reasons for that is that when a game goes all in to tell a story, especially when it has cool set pieces and artwork and minis and whatnot, it is also usually more expensive. Another big factor is what kind of story is being told. I find that when you purposefully avoid anything horror or fantasy, your offer in immersive story games quickly diminishes.
I thought that I would love story games, because I love to read. However, when we played Arkhams horror I felt kind of like we were wandering around in the dark and it was too much work and not enough fun. Above and Below is the perfect amount of storytelling for me. We love the game and it feels like a fun imaginary world! We also love to play Imperial settlers and Paladins! I like it if a bit of story telling adds to the game but doesn’t become the game. Great to see you Rodney.
I love the story aspect of tabletop games, likely for the same reasons I love the RPG genre of video games. What makes tabletop superior is how I can enjoy the story while my friends and loved ones carry out their roles in the story with me. The game that brought me into tabletop was Descent: Journeys in the Dark 2e (which I first heard about on this channel), and I continue to love it to this day!
Great video Rodney! For me... I was drawn to board games during the pandemic, and due to the situation, I was limited to games that included solo variants. Since I didn't have the opportunity to play with others and I dislike anything digital, I found the best balance in Eurogames. If I have a group of friends I feel that Legacy or RPG style games provide a better thematic experience than for solo, but for now, I find peace playing solo Eurogames. Theme is a bonus but does not need to be part of the game to bring the experience that I'm looking for. Lacrimosa is probably the closest I can get to theme driven-ish 😁I am starting to dive into wargames like Cuba Libre though....Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
I always love trying to add in a story based on events during the game, even if there's no "story text" or anything. But it definitely depends on the players at the table. Some do better with having the story laid out in front of them as a jumping off point. Others are able to spin stories just from a euro game that's not supposed to have any story. I know I've tried spinning stories up, but it's hard when you're the only one doing it, and if players are doing more min/maxing than they are playing to what might be a narrative. It's definitely hard to go against what might be a winning move for you, and to instead do a move for the story beat.
I love a game that has some kind of lore to it and for that reason, out of the classic board games, Cluedo is my personal favorite. Discovering how each of the suspects were connected to Mr Boddy, why did Boddy invite the suspects to his mansion, and their motives for murder. One little rule that bothered me was why did Miss Scarlet always go first until I read in an older rules book that she found the body - so I then decided that whoever goes first found Mr. Boddy's body. For some silly little improv, one special house rule that I had was that if you're playing as the murderer, you have to give a confession. I have written my own lore for Cluedo too, I used to write murder mysteries on a forum for people to solve and I still keep my hand in sometimes
Absolutely loved this guys. Rodney you are my favourite presenter on RUclips. On the topic. I don't think story is essential, memorable moments with my group are though. My game group loves the crew, not for the stories but for the tension and the moments when we triumph.
I tend to be put off by most games that have an explicit narrative as a fundamental component of the design. But that's not to say that I don't enjoy narrative in games. Rather, I think that emphasizing emergent narrative through player action lends itself more to the unique potential of tabletop gaming. If I'm looking for something more conventional in storytelling, I'd rather play a tabletop RPG that gives players enormous freedom. So it sounds like I'm most in line with Matthew's perspective here. But I love your comments towards the end about a design dangling narrative hooks in front of us without over-explaining everything. Ultimately, I think that this ties in with my overall preferences: storytelling in games should put player agency in the storytelling itself front and center. We should be the chief arbiters of what stories are to be told, not just in how a story is told or what the details are.
This is an interesting thing.When it comes to solo games I love narative being in the game. When I'm a solo player in Arkham Horror LCG.I love the feeling I get, as I battle cultists and things that the human mind should never see. But for multiplayer games, I know most ppl dont feel the same draw to the story that I do....and for that reason I love hidden role games or just asymmetric games like Fury of Dracula. I think there is something special about the narrative when you are versing someone that is living breathing and sitting at the table. There is a dangerous thing about to much narrative. I was playing Battlestar Galactica with some friends and one of the players was getting way to much into it from a roleplaying perspective that he was hampering the other human players. I think thats why I think its hard to get that particular game in front of them again, even though that person doesn't even play with us any longer.
I'm sorry I missed this one. We like the storyline elements of games. I'm not sure we just go for the story, but even if the game is not a story, we sometimes add a story. We love to look at the castles and features of the map in Carcassonne, or we will talk about a good night or a slow night at Taverns of Tiefenthal. We love bringing any game alive, even Castles of Burgundy!!
Thank you Rodney! Great topic that I never really thought about!Sleeping Gods is one of my games that I adore. I love the flavor text, the narrative. Although the narrative is some what disconnected, I make connections myself!
I've been a writer for over 35 years so, story is something I love. I've only been gaming for about 4 months and haven't found that story driven game...yet. I'd love to lose myself in a great game with a wonderful story. Having said that, it's certainly not paramount for me that a game have a story. I've played games like Skull and absolutely loved it - zero story there. Cheers!
I think stories in games have even more dimensions than this. One thing I expected in the video when Rodney was standing next to the Kallax with a cube of COIN games next to him was for him to take one out and talk about how games can RE-tell stories. Stories of history and people, things we know have happened. In some cases, games like these allow us to find out why or how they happened that way, when the games mechanics guide you to strategies that were historically used as well, like how Twilight Struggle paces you and pushes you to influence certain countries in a particular way. In other cases, games allow you to find out "what could have happened" by you taking a very different approach, or by getting completely different outcomes to the history, like a completely independent Afghanistan in Pax Pamir or a Syndicate-controlled Cuba in Cuba Libre. (Similar stories to COIN games can come out the fictional world of Root, especially given how full of personality the components in Root are!) Or if you're playing a game based on a fictional story, then how that story could have gone differently. Seeing War Of The Ring end up with a victory for Sauron or a game where Aragorn died, for example. This is the kind of storytelling--storytelling through the mechanics and possibility space of the game--that you can also find (though perhaps less explicitly as "storytelling") in some Eurogames. Tigris & Euphrates is famously dry, but also a great example of the story of the rise and fall of civilizations and kingdoms in ancient Mesopotamia.
I say that story telling in games depends on the game. If they are quick games, you might not care too much. But some games, story telling makes the game, they add so much depth and colour to the game. For example, "This War of Mine" has an amazing story telling to the game, where it's not too long, but long enough for you to get emotionally involved. Losing a character can hurt, but you know it's a part of life, but you feel so much for the game. Some games, you don't need much story telling. A game I'm starting to play again, "Letters from Whitechapel" great story telling, yet it doesn't say too much, since its a historically accurate game that involved real people. To play and escape each night as Jack, or to be the police, to investigate each move hoping to catch Jack, makes the game so intense, and everyone get so involved in it. You don't feel like the characters, but you sure do enjoy the art of escape and capture. Another game I can think of is Pandemic, which is interesting. The game doesn't need story telling, but if you buy the Legacy game (which I have yet to play), you get to enjoy the characters and what happens in that game affect your next gameplay. And that's why so many people like to play the Legacy version of Pandemic rather then just the main replay able game. So many games I could say just add a major element of your game, and makes you want to be that character, but yet, not every game needs a story.
Yeah - this is a great topic. I had an ambitious notion to record all my moves on games played and use them as a framework to tell a story. Tried it out with Voyages, the roll-and-write, to good effect - though it certainly added to the play time. Great video!
For a long time I have mostly played games with a short framing narrative at the beginning of the rule books. Like Dominion, Munchkin, Clue or Pandemic. I enjoy leaning into the story a bit, especially Munchkin. I recently purchased and played Legends of Andor, which is my first real story-driven game. I definitely felt more involved in the game, rather than simply trying to use math and mechanics to win the game. I saw The Adventures of Robin Hood at my game store and gave the box a quick read. I love legend based games, but when I saw that it had the story book as part of the game play, I thought, "that's really cool, but it might be a bit much." For me, a game is fine with just basic framing narrative, but a story-driven game experience can definitely be a step above.
I love storytelling in games. An example of something I expected to adore was Flamecraft. It looked like a story bursting off the pages. For some reason, I can't find that story, though. I do not know why. I am so happy the game is doing well. Something I did not expect to be very thematic at all was Robinson Crusoe and yet I feel like I am on a wild episode of Survivor when we play it. An example of when something got in the way probably *because* of storytelling was in Familiar Tales. Without spoilers, there was a very minimal side character introduced who needed to be rescued. To top this off, it was a child. The other three people I was playing with were thinking about the campaign's main goals, and how Ben was much closer toward being able to help with that side quest than anybody else. However, on my turn, I immediately went to help the side character, in full-on rescue mode, not trying to take over or steal anybody's thunder, but because I HAD to save that child. It's inconceivable to me to think logistics at a time like that! My strategy was that I might not be successful, and then Ben could try, and the whole story would utterly halt until this side character was saved!!!! The most immersive story I've ever played is Sleeping gods. I feel so deep into the lore, like sinking into a world under a mist. My hub and I probably played that game slower than anybody ever has, because we stopped and talked through decisions and explored EVERYTHING. XD We want to play another campaign of it. The only problem with being that immersed, and being a perfectionist, is that when we did make a mistake, we didn't play for weeks because I felt terrible! XD So far as being immersed because of artwork alone or almost exclusively, Forbidden Island is the best case of that for me.
One of the most popular games in my gaming group is "Its a Wonderful World". this isn't just because its a fun game thats easy to figure out, but it sparked conversation about what these dystopian nations are like and some have even come up with backstories for the general and financier characters that appear on the box and are used as points for the game.
Stories come in all sorts of types and lengths, and come sometimes before, after, or during the game. I feel some are more well done than others and some are of more appropriate length than others. Just to give a few examples personally: - Arkham Horror Card Game (played 3 and 4 player): The earlier campaigns of this game left much to be desired story-wise. Often there was only a few sentences or so describing the scenario. However, I played Edge of the Earth and that campaign almost flips it to the other side. A well written story that's a little bit too much for a board game. I feel there's a happy medium here to be had. - Middara (played 4 player): I played Middara Act 1. As this 80 hour game is about 23 hours of story (if read by Forteller), this story was clearly too much narrative, but we continued to play because we loved the gameplay and mechanics that much (I think it's my group's favorite game due to mechanics and despite story length) - Gloomhaven (played 3 and 4 player): This "story" was very convoluted and had no focus. While I felt this had an appropriate amount of text for what it was, it basically made no sense. My groups stopped reading it all together. - Sleeping Gods (played 2 player): This game is definitely worth mentioning as it's basically a big choose-your-own-adventure book. This game was amazing and the story of it was the focus! It felt great to be so free to go out and do whatever you wanted in an unknown world. The mechanics also felt like they supported the story enough without getting in the way of the enjoyment. - 7th Continent (played 2 player): Just wanted to leave off with an example of me feeling the mechanics got in the way of story. The exploration, discovery, and puzzles in this game were top notch, but the survival (mechanical) aspect of the game where you had to continually hunt for food constantly got in the way of the fun parts of the game CONSTANTLY. Often we would say "Time to go back to hunt for a while" and sigh while doing so. We played this once and haven't come back to it.
I'm a younger board gamer who is often forced to introduce games to new people. Teenagers are not the easiest people to sit down and game with. But over the past couple months I've slowly been working up my groups capacity to handle more "in-depth" rule sets. After countless games of The Mind, Dominion, and Carcassonne we slowly moved into a more complicated realm of Wingspan, Above and Below, and Imperial Settlers. But during one session of Dead of Winter, something changed, this whole group became immersed, making up amazing stories about secret love lives of characters, horrible deeds they've done, and secrets they were keeping from the group. And I think that's the goal, in this age of tech, many people are drawn to video games and movies for an escape, if we can get some high schoolers (or anyone for that matter) to become immersed in these games, we've done something right.
Lots of words! Thanks for reading! Long time watcher, first time commenter!
Good for you, that sounds excellent!
oh we miss table talk soooooo muchhhhh glad the series is back, Rhodney you are amazing, actually when i am down i watch your videos and your positive vibes just channel into me, you are the best
Here's to more positive vibes then :) Thanks for the kind words, and for being here for this series!
I think my favourite board games don't have a preset story, but provide tools to create a unique narrative with the other players. A good example is Oath. Every playthrough, the players become more familiar with certain cards, and can imagine the personalities and remember the histories of each denizen, site, and relic. There is next to no written story to Oath, but the game produces one from how unique the components are and how expressive the art is.
Oath is such a chore to play though
@@ZoidbergForPresident I played Oath once and I wouldn't call what I experienced playing, it was enduring.
Story through play is known as 'emergent narrative'.
With Oath, keeping the narrative ties in mind helps teach, learn and enjoy the game. You trade secrets but don't lose them. You can receive favors but if you dont return them they run dry.
Oath is absolutely amazing. I'm not sure one can have a proper understanding of how to play if they play only once. Similar to how Mage Knight gets better after a while.
Haven't had the chance to try Oath yet, but I love that kind of emergent narrative. It comes out great in games like Western Legends and Dead Reckoning.
OK, Rodney - long-time watcher here, first-time commenter. ABSOLUTELY board games should, and do, tell stories, but that goes beyond explicit narrative textual elements. I collect children's books from 1900-1940, and those often include stamped or illustrated covers and limited sets of tipped-in full-color plates (usually 4, 8, or 12 pictures per book). A beautifully designed board or components function just like a beautiful color plate: they invite you to imagine a story even before you begin reading the rules.
In many ways that's what you're talking about: not the importance of novel-length stories in games, but of the story POTENTIAL of great imagery and aesthetics. They can inspire our imaginations to fill "the spaces in between," just as you said. We learn that as children even before we can read for ourselves, and the stories we create or embellish by connecting images and patterns in our little-kid heads often remain incredibly vivid and powerful memories.
I've been playing a lot of puzzle games lately, like Sagrada and The Whatnot Cabinet. They have no explicit narrative at all, but the tiny hint offered to me by the tokens, the colors, even the art style - those encourage me to immerse myself and imagine, "What if?" What if I was back in my childhood, trudging through the Appalachians in the fall, looking for pretty leaves and neat stones? What if I was in a beautiful cathedral with sunlight streaming through the intensely colored stained glass windows? Those aren't whole narratives, but they take me out of my own here-and-now and put me in another reality, just for a few moments. And that counts as story to me, in a really fundamental way.
I've been playing Gloomhaven and it's assorted additions (Jaws of the Lion, Crimson Scales, etc) with the same group for years. We frequently come to decision points in the game where one or the other of us will say, "Well *I* would do X, but I feel like my character would actually do Y". It can seem like the wrong decision if all you're interested in is the easiest path to a win, but I find that sticking to the character's backstory can actually make the gameplay MORE FUN because now we're all having to deal with our characters' weaknesses and strategize around that. And it can make for some pretty memorable skin-of-the-teeth endings or even hilarious TPKs!
I think one of the best board games that you create your own story with very little help from the game itself is Oath. Oath is a blank canvas that gets filled with new unique color each time you play it. It tells stories of triumph and turmoil, as you fight for your claim to the kingdom as chancellor. It's fantastic and I would highly recommend checking it out if you haven't.
When you talk about reading the flavor text on the cards out loud as you play them, this is absolutely something I do. I tend to believe that flavor text adds a lot to the game. A great example of this is the game Fortune and Glory from Flying Frog. Those cards have some fantastic flavor text on them and really adds to what is going on in the game itself. I ask that everyone who plays it reads that text out loud so we can get the whole feeling of the story.
I bought Sleeping Gods based on a friend's recommendation and after watching your video of it. I love the art and even the weight of the box that promises the amount of content inside. The story definitely scratches an itch that I've had ever since playing D&D as a kid and has introduced that to my kids when we play together. Even going through a second playthrough recently, where some of the content we replayed and made different choices, we all still got excited again. For me, stories can definitely accentuate a game.
I've been looking into getting that game. Is it difficult to learn? Easy to teach?
@@9Nails I definitely recommend watching this channel's video of it and there is also a tutorial / introductory scenario in the box that teaches you most of the rules. It takes a few hours to get used to everything but it's not that hard - my 12 yr old got a good grasp of how to play it.
5 campaign finished
I love when a game builds the story through play (like Time Stories for example), not necessarily when you have to stop and read 2 pages before starting.
I've always loved this Table Talk series, but it seems like forever ago since I saw one. This is just a request to keep it up. I find it really interesting.
Yes! I love stories with my board games! Above and Below, Near and Far, and Now or Never are some of my favorite examples of this. My family’s new obsession is Clank Legacy: Acquisitions Incorporated. The way we’re all working together to unlock all the quests, cards, and board stickers is truly wonderful, and we’re all invested in the various characters and situations in the game. In-game narratives Drive player interaction, and that’s always welcome at my table!
As someone who ysed to write narrative responses to Watch it Played videos I have a lot of thoughts on the subject. However, in order to prevent my response being long enough to work as the script for its own 30 minute video I'll keep it to this point. I don't think narrative is necessary, one of my favorite games is Terraforming Mars, but I think it helps new players get more invested in games and is part of why Legacy games are as regarded as they are. My family aren't gamers. They don't want to play most of teh games in my ollection but we played Charterstone together because they wanted to see the world unfold. We're about to finish Clank Legacy and they've all told me how excited they are to play the next game because they want to see where the story is going. After that, we're looking to Sagrada Artisans, another Legacy game in hopes of a similar experience. Narrative isn't neccessary, but there are reasons people love it.
Some of my favorite games are story driven: mansion of madness (it’s counterpart LoTR journey in middle earth), TIME stories, bedtime stories, and Charterstone. I’m always so deeply immersed into the game and even change how I play due to story elements. The unfortunate part of some of these games is that it’s not as replayable as others. However, the art of the game is just as, if not more important to me. Certain games, that could have a similar style of gameplay to another that I love, I just can’t get into cuz it doesn’t captivate me enough to want to play. I can definitely say there is a limit on how much story there should b and agree I’ve had a blast with jokes from certain stories made up through gaining a condition(s) in a game and imagining what that would be like or even how a player chose to do something while giving more details of how it happened. One last pieces that also is important to me when playing games (regardless if it has story or not) is music. I’m known throughout my friends and family as the immersive board gamer cuz I always love to have some kind of background music playing when I play. Whether it’s background music that’s already there in a game like mansions of madness or London dread, or even a simple strategy game like Imhotep or Takenoko that I will play music from that culture or time period or even genre if I’m playing something like Covert. I do it so much that it almost feels empty without it now lol
Love audible and a good story in a board game!! One that really caught our attention was The Initiative that builds the story into the puzzles you are trying to solve and add some of those really funny and exciting moments to pieces that you get to discover along the way. We also love Call to Adventure where you build out your own story! You get to choose you past and your future, whether you are good or bad and fulfill your destiny, it's great!
I always enjoy your reading of flavour text! I don't always do it but do feel reading flavour text adds more to my immersion into a them or story that a game is telling.
As a ccg enthusiast, I think ccgs and lcgs are usually very good at telling a story with very little actual storytelling. Legend of the Five Rings is a prime example of this: an entire universe came to life with cards depicting characters, actions, items, events, etc. There was just the right amount of flavor in the game, and it was complemented with story material outside the game, such as short stories in rulebooks, letters to fan according to their clans, storyline tournament events, and of course rpg books and novels. This all meant you could invest yourself in the story according to your preferences, as little or as much as you wanted.
In the board game world, I think Plaid Hat and Jerry Hawthorne created amazing stories. While Mice & Mystics was very heavy on reading (and it did feel a bit like work at times), Familiar Tales greatly improved on this with an audio track, and great voice actors. The inclusion of professional (mostly anime) voice actors in storytelling games was also amazing in Forgotten Waters.
And finally, there are sometimes games that are a bit of a trainwreck, but that are in a way something you should experience. Android comes to mind. The game is heavy and somewhat clunky, and it rarely hit the table, but our game from 10 years ago still offers us some legendary memories. And even if I have no immediate plans to play again, I am extremely attached to that game, simply because of the story it created for us.
I think the best experiences come from emergent stories that gain life through the people playing and engaging with one another. The ideal for me is a game that gives you a vivid setting and outline, but that you can colour in with stories or experiences as you play.
Love a good story, especially in a co-op. A dry co-op like Pandemic (original) doesn't really appeal to me, but Mansions of Madness, Dead of Winter, Robinson Crusoe, 7th Continent, etc. all do.
So happy to see Table Talk again.
For me, if a board game tries too hard to tell me a specific story it takes away from my experience. There's something about coming together with my friends that makes me want more agency in board gaming than even video games. And so I want to engage with a story through play rather than stopping play to tell me something more directly.
I love it when a game provides the structure for me and my friends to make a story with. And especially when there are possibly points of "ludonarrative dissonance" I love trying to come up with an absurd story reason for it.
For example, we played a game recently of Phantom Ink and a ghost wrote clickity-clackity for their first hint and when it was their turn to answer again they asked if they could repeat a clue. Most movie ghosts/seance scenes don't normally have a ghost repeating an onomatopoeia and the thought of the existence of possibly the most annoying ghost in the world got me bursting with laughter.
When the charm of the theme or the in-game justification for the actions diminishes, that's when I tend to lose interest. Pushing cubes and placing cards by itself doesn't do it for me. I need something to tie everything together.
For instance, I watched The Bear recently and, so, every time I've played Hibachu afterwards, during the clean up phase of the game where it can get kind of procedural, I start calling everyone "chef" and blast through that part.
I will say sandbox games are a little too much for me. I still like games that point towards a goal. Otherwise, it feels too structureless for me. I think games like Oath and Food Chain Magnate do this really well. A lot of choice but a pretty clear, obvious endgoal.
I've probably rambled on enough. Hopefully, I've clarified the ways in which I engage with narrative in board games and am looking forward to hearing about others' approaches
I love flavor text. I used to play Magic The Gathering years and years ago and my favorite bits of cards were the quotes at the bottom that described the card, gave a bit of lore, or a quote from the character. One of the ones I remember to this day is from a card called Squee's Toy - "As the horrors closed in on Gerrard, Squee trembled and clutched his toy for comfort. He didn’t know where it came from or why it was so warm, but he was glad he’d kept it near." I loved all the Squee stuff when I was a kid, what a goofy goblin!
Yes! Thanks, Rodney for the video. I enjoy a variety of games, but this helped me articulate that my favorite games are ones the ones that most immerse me in a narrative, regardless of the mechanics or level of complexity or even whether the story is contained within the rules itself or can be created by spontaneous player interaction. I wonder if this is why it bothers me so much when people can't be bothered to use the correct terms for money and resources--calling everything dollars or cubes breaks the immersion.
LOVE this topic! I usually want to just jump into a game and get going if I know how to play. I may read the flavor text on my own during the week before our group gets together as I’m setting up the game just to see what it says because the creators put it there for a reason.
However, we have a guy in our group who will read the flavor text of every card, out loud, every time, unless he has that card memorized and then if it’s in your hand and you forget to read it out loud, he will remind you what it says and make sure that we understand how it plays into the game as a whole.
While story isn’t as big a deal for me, it does help a little bit when playing the game to aid in knowing where we’re headed so we get a feel of the sense of adventure and that we’re doing it as a “Band of Brothers.” For my friend, it’s all about the story. If we’re playing a game and there’s no story, he has to make up his own.
When we play Legendary: a Deck Building Game, he doesn’t just follow the MCU and tell us what happened in those movies, NO, he will take the characters that are in our game and make up his own MCU version of a movie that helps us know why we’re fighting this Mastermind at this time. Every interaction and combination of every card played has to have a reason; like Thor throwing Mjölnor to smash the skull of a henchman enabling Deadpool to burst through the scene and attack Thanos for a catastrophic blow.
As for the box, We can’t help but judge a game by its cover! Gloomhaven, Horrified, Mysterium, World War Hulk, Dungeon Draft, The Mind … the cover gets you to take it off the shelf at the store or click the image on the screen to learn more about it. Either tell me the story in the box with the art on the box, or use a white box with black letters for the name and leave it a mystery. Either way, “100% of boring ads are useless”
For me it largely depends on the group. I've had a great time with friends playing board games where the main focus of the evening was just "being together with friends". I don't think I would've paid too much attention to any story.
When I play with only my wife as a gaming partner, then story is much more important, as we only play co-operative board games (or semi co-op, as is the case now with Gloomhaven).
For solo games, a good story really elevates a game to the next level. But here, also games like Lost Expedition or Arkham Noir work for me, where you basically tell your own story based on the cards/events.
About the cover art: I know that my brother and I spent hours looking at the cover of HeroQuest, always coming up with new ideas of how the characters ended up there and what would happen next. Same for the expansions. HeroQuest really had great cover artwork.
That's my experience too - the group can have such an effect on whether story becomes important (or even a part of the game at all).
I actually seek out games right now that have story or campaign elements, but the best ones are ones with strong characters. One of my top favourites currently, the Arkham Horror Card Game is a favourite because the deck building system and the ongoing narrative help the characters come alive. Now, some Arkham characters will always have certain traits in mind whenever I see them, such as ex-boyfriends or weapon preferences, because those elements came up in when telling the story one memorable time.
Thanks for your great work, Rodney. I’m more like Paula and you, I’m an actor as well, so being immersed in a story is by far what attracts me the most to games. My favorite is Arkham Horror Lcg, and even more so since The Edge of the Earth campaign. A lot of Arkham players have complained that there was to much text and got them distracted from the game in that campaign, for me it was the complete opposite. I was immersed in the game even more so then the other campaigns.
Personally I enjoy a narrative but I feel like I gravitate towards *solo* games with a narrative, since I’m already taking my own time with the experience.
I’m not sure if it’s because of the nature of my main gaming group, but narrative, even flavor text seems to slow down any game night. However, because our group is made up of creative-types (all writers, artists, etc) we seem to automatically (never with premeditated intention) start creating our own narrative. Often light, often humorous, but whether we’re playing anything from Catan to Clank to Great Western Trail, there’s often a spontaneous narrative we form. Almost like some home-brew head canons in story form, all making the experience even more interactive & enjoyable. I never really thought of this/noticed we did this on the regular until watching this video!
I prefer the game providing the opportunity to create a story through the actual game play with an intriguing theme, solid mechanics, variability, competitive player interaction and more. A paragraph of narrative every now and then so it doesn't disrupt the game flow is probably the max. My favorite and most memorable games of all time allow to have these epic experiences where a story is kind of played out by all the players at the table with a little bit of flavor text sprinkled throughout - Western Legends and Dead Reckoning.
Great topic and keep this Table Talk series going!
I love this! This video is thorough and compelling - please continue this series!
I don’t know if it is a full lengthy story that I look for, but rather those little moments in a game where the gamers around the table take something from the theme of the game and use it to inform their decisions in a way, especially in a fun and humorous way.
Great video! I love flavor text on cards whether it is a bird fact on Wingspan or a description in Arkham Horror. I just like feeling immersed in the aesthetic and the setting of a game. I often listen to soundtracks of war movies when I play war games or fantasy movies when I play fantasy games. I like all the little things that help transport you to the setting.
If I think back on my most memorable moment in a board game, it would probably be from Pandemic Legacy Season 1. If you've played, you know the one. That moment didn't come from long chapters of written narrative, yet it was absolutely the climax of a narrative arc. It was a plot twist where our entire group had to sit back from the table for a long moment and process what had just happened. I think a narrative arc helps create the most memorable moments in games, and you don't need a lot of written words to make that narrative real to the players.
Rodney, my dude! This was an AWESOME video! Great topic and I love how you are making it interactive with our comments. Good sir, you are a man after my own heart when it comes to board games. I absolutely love narrative in my games, or the choice to make up my own when given a few tidbits. I like to get immersed into the game's world, to make it more memorable to me. Games like the Dead of Winter series has the Crossroads cards that give a little event with a choice one or more players have to make, altering the round overall.
Another fantastic game I love to play is Call to Adventure. In that one, players essentially create their character while playing the game. From choosing their backstory to different quests they have embarked on, players at the end of the game are encouraged to come up with their character's story from the choices they have made during the game. Love the whole mechanic of it.
I think it is important to distinguish between narrative and story. I would argue games like wingspan and Castles of Burgundy tell a story with their components and mechanics. Narrative I think of as written language story telling. IMO, all good games either have or help players develop good stories.
Its great you do these video essays. Great stuff. Great narrative!
I used to play High School Drama with friends and it’s not the best game mechanically talking, BUT we would go 100% storytelling and explain everything that happened to our characters and that was just so much fun!
I'm really interested in how Nemesis had RPG elements added to it. That is by far my favorite game, and I also enjoy playing RPGs with my friends. A marriage of the two sounds incredible!
This sure makes me appreciate the arkham lcg even more. Rewarding players for staying true to their backgrounds, like Monterey Jack getting more resources for exploring. Our group was originally mostly roleplayers before we got sucked into board games, so narrative is pretty essential for us at least.
I love games with an emerging narrative that the players are telling. In a game like Tapestry which at its core is a cube pushing euro, the stories that emerge in our sessions leads to some really memorable moments, particularly around the Technology cards. Always a good laugh to be had when people reach to the stars on the exploration track and then on their next action, invent the battery.
lol - I "love" hearing that you all are looking to FIND those stories too. Because I imagine it would be just as easy to not "see" any of those stories, if you weren't looking for them.
@@WatchItPlayed A huge part of it is definitely the art and presentation of the game. I have been focused on the the resource management puzzle of games like this before and missed any thematic or narrative piece that emerged during the session. It can be refreshing to take a step back and see what story each of us are telling with our tableaus. Tableau Talk, if you will :)
I love flavour text - it generally gives me something to read whilst people take their turns.
I lean more towards the Euro style of play, but I’m starting to appreciate the story driven games. The Adventures of Robin Hood was my first story driven board game but I’ve been a Dungeon Master for seven years so… I guess I do go for story games! Near and Far and Stuffed Fables are two others that have my interest to finish stories.
It doesn’t mean I won’t make the story as I go along with things, putting on voices for text, or embodying a character if it’s appropriate. Fury of Dracula for example. I like having that table story whilst acting as Dracula and the party coming across me and panicking that they weren’t ready!
The games are what we make of them, I think. And a lot of games don’t have a convenient story to use. It doesn’t mean i won’t invent one as I go.
Great Vid Rodney, Been watching since the first ep of table talk really happy to see it back.
I think on this topic I am definitely with Mathew, I believe story driven games are largely group driven which is why I havent had the chance to play many of them, mainly because usually these types of games take quite abit longer to play and arnt as replayable. I feel the stories made during the game between the players is what makes games memorable. This being said though, I must admit games that have interesting art and decent flavour text open the door for those types of player moments a little more.
My most memorable game night are those when everyone is standing up around the table fully focused on what another player will do on their turn reciting inside jokes that we only just made together 10 minutes ago and pronouncing character names incorrectly.
Maybe if i tried gaming with a different group i might enjoy story games more but as a guy who just loves playing board games the memories i make around the table is more than enough for me.
My top board games are This War of Mine, Robinson Crusoe, Dead of Winter and Nemesis. So yeah, for me, it should tell a story :)
Flavor text is a beautiful addition to many games. If i am playing a game with a lot of downtime in between turns, I am usually reading all the flavor text in front of me as it helps me immerse into the game, or.. feel that I am now apart of the game. Story telling in board games is one of the main draws to me, and that is coming from my first modern board game being an adventure story book game. My first modern board game was Stuffed Fables and that was the start of my love for board games, and I can't seem to imagine a game without some form of story telling. I tend to notice missed opportunities for when a game could have had a theme that was promoted by adding a bit of flavor text, and not to say a game is a let down for it, but it is that important to me as my love for a game can be determined on how I felt playing the game. Did I actually feel like I was exploring the Lost Ruins of Arnak; did I feel I was escaping a city with a lot of money in Escape Plan; or am kicking can, swinging, and being witty like Spider-man when I play my cards in Marvel Champions.
First, I love Table Talk. To answer the question I love a board game with a story. I find that when I play a game that doesn’t have a “story” that it guides you through, I end up creating my own narrative.
My daughter Violet likes a little bit of storytelling "as long as it's not lots of paragraphs that you have to read before continuing with the story" (like in Mice & Mystics), but when we tried playing Dungeons & Dragons for the first time, the chance to tell her own story was much more enjoyable. For me, I do like storytelling, and whenever it's presented I'll try and get into it as much as I can - adding some atmosphere and voices (Betrayal at House on the Hill, Journeys in middle Earth). But I know my family are less keen on it so it's usually short-lived. Great episode!
By far my favorite series on your channel. Yay, a new episode!
For me, and I may be weird, the concept of "uncanny valley" applies. I'm familiar with this term with like, robots, where people like robots that look a little like people, but if they are too close to looking like people but obviously aren't, we get creeped out by them.
I apply this to narrative games. I love being part of the story, but to do that, I have to make the choices. The only game that gets away with this combo is a true RPG, like D&D. Anything that tries to be an RPG that isn't - something like a game relying on choose your own adventure type decisions to take a branch of a story tree, is just uncanny RPG for me. There's the illusion that I'm creating the story, but I'm really just playing out a set of pre-written narratives. I honestly hate that. So I need a game to be farther away from narrative to enjoy it. This can be a narrative-light game, like Scythe: Rise of Fenris, or a non-narrative game in an immersive world (like Wayfarers of the South Tigris, Concordia or Through the Ages), or an abstracted game, like Castles of Burgundy or Century: Spice Road. The closer I get to RPG that's not RPG, the less I"m interested, until we get all the way there.
Table Talk is back! This is now the best present I got for Christmas.
Your recollection is a walk for me down memory lane... so many years had gone by... your kids must be all grown-up. Back to the topic - it really depends on the game. Uno, Monopoly, Bang!, Dominion etc - either the story isn't there at all or unimportant. However, games like Folklore, Descent, Ghost Stories - yes, getting into the game with a story (role-playing) makes immersive and that added memorable.
Rodney, I want to take the opportunity to thank you for the many years of fun watching your videos - thank you.
I really missed these videos.
I do not need the story in games but I like it if the story is not forced down my throat. Sometimes you just want to play a game and do not try to set up stories and sometimes you want to tell one, but often during good games, stories are marked by the players. I still remember my first C:DMD scenario when my burning character beat the last health of Cthulhu with his fists.
Also, I really love small flavour text on cards - especially in Enchanters where each pair of cards makes a new one describing your character.
I'm a creative writer. Creating stories took my whole life. I love writing, drawing, and playing boardgames since I was a kid. Even simple games such as Monopoly or Snakes and Ladders intrigued me because they provided a sort of mini-world where I can craft a story with. That's also the reason why I love euro games the most. They might look boring to some, but to me, they're like a systematic worlds where people struggled to live and gain their life. (I personally prefer flavor narrative texts on cards rather than on books, and yeah, euro games with story cards are my favorites, like Oh My Goods story expansions!)
I guess that's also where my habit of making custom standees and story generators for every games possible came from. :D
For me, it's a spectrum. Theme can add an element that helps create story, adding context. 'Lost Ruins of Arnak' delivers a narrative through the art and mechanics (such as the card market going from mostly equipment you bring to artifacts you find). Some games create narrative through emergent gameplay. One example is Pandemic Legacy: Season One: a lot of the story in that game emerged from gameplay, not the story text (often only a single card with two or three paragraphs). The excitement came from it being our personal story, unique to us. Over the course of months in that game, successive outbreaks had rendered South America a crisis zone that we resorted to quarantining off, feeling we had no choice but to protect the rest of the world. Then a mission came up requiring us to search to find elements for a cure to one of the diseases...in the heart of the hot zone we had abandoned! Worse, we had just lost the specialist we had selected to be an expert in entering the most dangerous area. It was an exciting, tense, and thrilling story that all came out of the game and our interaction with it.
Not every game needs a story, obviously. The Azul series probably wouldn't see any benefit with the addition of one. It, like games such as Dominion or Wingspan, have a theme, but not really a narrative. They give you context for what your doing, but they don't offer up a narrative any more than watching a hockey game does. Yes, there may be a notion of 'what an amazing thing happened in that game', but it's not the same as an actual narrative. On the other hand, games like Legends of Andor, Gloomhaven or 7th Continent create stories both by presenting you with text to read AND by gameplay that reinforces the story. An upcoming game, The Isofarian Guard, intends to tell a fairly involved story...but still will feature extensive player agency to let you make the story your own. The game's narrative informs your gameplay and sweeps you up in the story. And, of course, some games walk the line: Scythe famously has factions, but it also has decision cards where you can make a choice from three options. The game could have chosen just some simple icons, but instead, it makes them story choices....and the context for those choices actually meant something to me. Now I'm not just getting two metal and losing a popularity, but instead I'm confiscating a villages farm machinery for my own needs. Some might not consider that narrative choice relevant to them, but to me, the choices in things like that or Gloomhaven's encounter cards do actually have us engage in roleplaying. And I like those elements.
The best thing about the WiP team is how much variety they have in taste and style to approach gaming, and I'm all in for it. Some games I never bat an eye to it , thanks to comments from someone on the team made me check it for a second time and give it a chance, The Crew for example, I'm not really into coop, but how Mathew talks about it and his review, I tried it and discovered I did really liked the game, so thank you all for what you do for the hobby and us fans.
Hey, Rodney! Funny enough, your original series of MoM1E is what sold me on getting that game. I’m big on narrative in board games and often do things to enhance the story, even if it costs me a win. Personally, I view board gaming as an experience to be had rather than a competition to win. Nemesis, for example, is a very difficult game to win, but my friends and I agree that even if you lose, it’s often in spectacular fashion and leaves us with an incredible story to tell… I mean win or lose, ask anyone how their game of Nemesis ended and it sounds ridiculous in the best way! That’s the kind of board game experience I’m after… like books or movies, I enjoy board games most when it whisks me away to experience something extraordinary.
That being said, I’m also not opposed to games that are more mechanical, but LONG form euro games are not my thing. A short form euro to me is fun and exciting like solving a puzzle, but too much of a good thing backfires for me in this case. Long form narrative game? If the immersion is there, I’m on board, 100%!
I've just started to get into board gaming as a hobby, and here recently, I've been drawn to games that have built-in story aspects. A few months ago, I discovered red raven games, and I've really fallen in love with the way Ryan Laukat designs and incorporates stories into his games. My two favorite games right now are Above and below and near and far. The art style and use of a story book are the two big factors that bring these games to life for me.
This is such an interesting topic that boils down to "what makes board games enjoyable for you?" I think it depends on "how your experiences on board games developed or evolved".
I started playing hobby board games since 2012, and you guessed it, I more or less been watching your channel since then. So initially, I loved story driven games like Mice and Mystics or Lord of the rings LCG, which were uploaded on WatchItPlayed where I really had fun watching it being played. However, I eventually moved on as it was extremely hard to play these kind of games with my group as it requires continuous plays to fully enjoy the game.
After experiencing euro games, I'm pretty much like what Naveen said, the theme is important not the narrative. I realized this with my friends the first time we played Barrage. Before, we always thought resources as something we buy and use up but Barrage lets us have the resources (the machinery) returned after being used. On top of that, the way the water moves was also something phenomenal. I love board games that have "convincing" mechanisms, mechanisms that are harmonious to the theme of the game.
If not, I would prefer a game to have absolutely no theme at all, like the GIFF series or pretty much abstract games. However, this is also due to my experience in board games. I liked playing chess since 6 years old and to me board games were 2 player abstract games, which is probably why I still enjoy them. Santorini, War Chest, Yinsh are so much fun.
Finally, I do love games that driven by narrative but that allows players to create them. Absolutely love Dune: Imperium because of the battles. Even though the battle is only a small part of the game (although the most important), the preparation, the battle itself, and the element that you get to start with additional power if you won the previous battle on that location, they are all very thematic and players can imagine an enormous battle field that changes almost every game.
Basically, I think I enjoy these kind of games because they were most fun for the conditions that I was in. If I ever meet someone that can regularly play a story driven game, I'm sure that I will eventually like such games as well. Hopefully then, I will be able to play Gloomhaven haha XD
I love Table Talk! ❤️ I would describe myself as an omnigamer. As such, I appreciate storytelling in games, but I don't need it to enjoy the experience.
That said, thinking back on my most memorable gaming experiences, they all involved a story element of some kind. Our friend group still laughs about the soldier abandoning the scientist to his fate in Nemesis.
Oath does an amazing job of building a narrative through game play without actual written story, so long as you're willing to think about how the mechanics of cards function thematically. It's brilliant!
My favourite play sessions of Gloomhaven were the characters we lent our own back stories to, likewise with 7th Continent.
I think the potential is there in a lot of games if you are so inclined and it adds a really fun and interesting layer to the experience. Great topic.
Love to see the return of this series! I must say, I really love and appreciate the extra bits of production value and effort put into this (as with all your projects)! Hearing from the whole team's differing perspectives, setting up seamless transitions, and even the ad break felt natural and within the flow of the video. Awesome job!
Here are some of my thoughts on the topic (warning in advance, I can get a bit long-winded at times 😆):
I am definitely somewhere in the middle of the spectrum for appreciation of story in my games. It certainly isn't essential, and I enjoy plenty of heavier Euros like Monique and Naveen were describing, but I have come to realize a little bit goes a long way for me. In abstract games, I can often feel disconnected and disengaged; an example that comes to mind looking at my shelf is Cryptid; despite loving the puzzle that game presents the theme is so threadbare it sometimes dissuades me from playing it over other similar contenders with a just a slightly better executed theme (like Search for Planet X). On the flip side, games that are purely (or largely) narrative are difficult for me to get into, because I am ultimately looking for a more interactive and 'thinky' experience when I sit down to play games; a recent example of a game that I bounced off of for this reason was Sleeping Gods (which I also disliked their combat non-rewards system, but that's a different topic 😋 ).
Another point I'd like to reflect on a bit from your video: when you state we're operating under the assumption we all want the games to be 'good/functional', regardless of story. I've found for myself that there are some games that mechanically, would not be enough for me to get them to the table, but because of their story tying in so well with their mechanics, I get more engaged playing it. The perfect example is one you already used in the video: Eldritch Horror; mechanically, it's a bit too swingy, dependent on die rolls, and sometimes repetitive. But when you add in the story, all of a sudden I don't have a generic +1 die to some stat checks, I have SLEDGEHAMMER, and I'm going to use it to cave in that Shoggoth's face. This is one of the games where I do ask players to read the flavor text on their encounter cards, because the story is a big part of the experience for me here.
This does bring me to my central point, one touched on slightly in the video but I'd to dig deeper into, since it is the way I most appreciate story in games: when it is closely tied to the mechanics. To use an example from your video, the character that is always prone to fighting; my ideal games take that character's story and then design him mechanically so that he is frequently incentivized to be in combat (or vice versa). It is when this is done particularly well that you get some of my favorite games. Easy example is my favorite game of all time, Spirit Island; the Invaders are coming to this island and Blighting it, the native Dahan are all but powerless to stop it, and you play as a literal force of nature in an attempt to stem the tide, sometimes by brute force, sometimes by subtle suggestion and manipulation, and others by outright terror. Some of these things are told to me, but most I experience through the gameplay and mechanics of the game, as it was designed. Similarly with the Spirits (player characters), each one has mechanics that reinforce their theme, and vice versa. This immerses me deeply in the game I'm playing, and makes for some very memorable stories.
Another category I want to carve out a mention for: IP games. While many, especially in the past, have been somewhat obvious cash-grabs with little thought put into them, in the last decade I think we've seen a big boom in fantastically well designed and executed IP Games; some examples that come to mind are Star Wars Rebellion, War of the Ring, almost all of the Dune games of recent memory (and the OG as well), and even the new Pandemic system games (which I was highly skeptical of upon announcement), have served their IPs well while still delivering an engaging mechanical experience. IP games can help players too because it 'saves them some work' of having to understand a new world or story and just puts them into one they already know well; this can result in some of the best moments and personal stories to be told, that seem to be the peak of all gamer's experience with stories (Star Wars Rebellion is particularly good at this)
And for a final note, wargames and historical games in general. While I greatly appreciate all the hard works that goes into these games and am glad so many enjoy them as they do, this is a genre that I struggle to play. For me, gaming is largely about escapism; getting away from my troubles and spending some time (be it alone or with friends) with a fun experience that will keep my brain turning. Unfortunately, these games, depicting real-world conflicts and the very real anguish of very real people, make it hard for me to achieve that, and can often just remind me of the things I'm trying to escape from. Just to reiterate: I do not begrudge these games' existence, or anyone who creates or enjoys them; I think they are a worthy lens into the past and, in almost every case, are extremely mindful and respectful of the reality of the conflicts they are depicting. It's just a genre that doesn't quite work for me, for the reasons mentioned above. That being said, it seems only fair to mention a couple of games that are the exception to this (both WiP recommendations as it turns out): first is Watergate; it's a theme I don't feel strongly about, but it masterfully executes on it, and the mechanics of the game are just so tight and enjoyable, and packed into a relatively short playtime, that I just love to play it again and again. The tug-of-war mechanic in particular is something so unique and clever; I hope we'll see more games using this. The other (in true WiP fashion) is a COIN game, specifically Andean Abyss; this is one I rarely get to play, but due to my connection to the source material, I do enjoy experiencing; it makes me feel like I have a better understanding of the forces at play in that conflict (something I suspect many other players of the genre enjoy as well)
Well there you are! Apologies for the long-winded response, I tend to get carried away 😅 . Just goes to show you had a lot of great talking points in the episode! 😋 😄
Cheers!
I really love a game with an immersive story. It’s like being dropped into a movie and getting to play a part!
Thanks for the great video!!
I don't need games to tell a story to enjoy them, but I do enjoy an emergent, player-created story over paragraphs of text. This isn't unique to thematic or Ameritrash games, as I've had stories come out of the driest euros. I think games are more emotionally engaging and memorable when a story emerges. I still remember when you (Rodney) played Zombicide on this channel. Doug's heroic sacrifice, going out in a blaze of glory, has stuck with me all these years!
I think another point not talked about in the video is the stories we create of the play group itself during the game. These are stories of that time someone took that impossible risk and succeeded, when that co-op came down to the very last card and our hearts were pounding as it was revealed, or someone seemed down and out and came from behind to win the game.
Stories evoke emotion and create powerful experiences. That's why I like games to enable us, as players, to create stories as we play - whether in game or in group - that we can remember and tell for years to come.
Great video! I had an almost identical experience to Paula, except Dominion and Betrayal at House on the Hill. I own Dominion, but I credit Betrayal as getting me into the hobby, as well as most of my game group. We later picked up Betrayal Legacy, and to this day it remains one of the most bonding experiences we've had. We've tried other games with story, but none of them had that "just right" amount of story that Betrayal did. There is also an element of timing, some days the group isn't in the mood for anything except moving elements on the table. It's important to be open to your group's limits when it comes to story elements, to play to that limit, and to know the right time. I love the Crew, but could never get anyone interested in the paragraph of story before each game.
I think Flavor Text needs the reader to also make it sound engaging... not easy for many as it sounds more like them reading a sentence back in middle school because they were told to by the teacher. That really detracts from the flavor. I personally like to add a voice or animate the words to bring it to life and, well, hopefully it is entertaining to the listeners!
In my experience, I found that story telling has not been an important factor in determining my enjoyment of a board game. For example, I played through Jaws of the Lion, and, even though it's one of my favourite games, I found myself just skimming through the storyline and really only focusing on each scenarios' Special Rules section. Although, I am interested in finding a board game that provides a strong and engaging narrative, I just have not found one yet in the limited number of games I have played. Also, I do imagine that board games with lots of story would definitely benefit from audio narration applications, like Foreteller, to take on some of that chore. I Love that Table Talk series is back, and look forward to more discussion on this wonderful hobby!
This is a very interesting topic. During the last 9 years of my life from the age 14 and 25, my view of games have changed a lot. I always loved games, but did not have many options in my childhood (Monopoly and Catan only), but we had lots of fun with those too. I believe the first and most important thing is, who do you play the games with. That is the most important. After that, for me it is a mix, I mean story wise and mechanic wise.
I do like games with a narrative, but I really like games like Go or Chess too. I think the most important is the quality of the game. Now for example I really liked Gloomhaven Jaws of the Lion, but the narrative part is okay, but I sense no real change in a story, I just feel playing a dungeon after a dungeon and kill monsters. My first board game I bought at the age of 16 was Legends of Andor. I still remember that game ( I got too excited about games and traded after completing it, which I think I regretted back then). That game was a monster kill game, but I still remember we had a sense of a growing story, but maybe it was too long ago and I don't remember correctly.
To conclude, I believe first and foremost the people you play with, are the most important (I like to play with my closest friends or people that I know, so basically people are more important than the games we play). After that it really depends on the quality of the game
and my mood. Sometimes I love just to think and see the patterns and feel very tense playing a match of Go, or sometimes I really like to go on and fight monsters or play and economic game. But I must say I like games with theme, especially historical theme, which I can relate. For example, one of my favourite periods in history is the Renaissance, and as so playing the game Pax Renaissance, when I can, I just really like it, and it gives a really good narrative (after you have incorporated the rules and you can start thinking about strategy :D )
I think the best game in my collection that's able to do a good job with storytelling and gameplay balance is Call To Adventure. Not only am I picking the cards for my character during the game for points, but I'm also able to imagine how my character is able to accomplish his goals, like "a hunter kills a dragon and becomes heir to the throne." In addition, the artwork on the game's cards makes it feel like you'll looking at a picture storybook while playing it, and the game isn't buried in a fat rulebook. Finally, once the game is done, I could make a story about the character I made in a notebook somewhere to continue at a future. In summary, I originally bought Call To Adventure for help with making characters for my own personal stories due to its gameplay, but it also introduced me to a good storytelling experience by just playing the game.
As far as other experiences with storytelling in board games go, campaign and role-playing games like Gloomhaven and D&D are what I can think of, but I tend to stay away from big box campaign games due to the rulebooks feeling like that I have to read a textbook just to understand the game, and ever while playing it, in the middle of the game, I'll be forced to read another 5 pages of text to get the next objective during the game. I'm not a fan of most games that buried you with long lines of text every 5 minutes since it prolongs the game too much, and if I have limited time to play the game, I don't need to know "this NPC that isn't in this scene is going to a town" type things.
Yay, Table Talk is back!
Games that have strong stories or themes are good, but I think my favorite are games that enable you to tell your own story. Shut Up & Sit Down talked about how Twilight Imperium is a game for telling stories and making memories, and it is SO TRUE. For how infrequently I'm able to get it to the table, a lot of my most memorable gaming stories come from TI and my experiences with the other players. We're teed up with the theme and faction back stories and mechanics, but it's ultimately the players that makes the stories come to life. I still talk about my greatest defeat in that game, 3 or 4 years later, haha.
I also wish more games had something like the Crossroads system from the Dead of Winter. This leans more into the game trying to tell a story rather than the players, but having a series of random events each turn that might not even happened based on what you've done up to that point just added some extra life to that game. That mechanic in particular was one of my favorites.
On the flip side to all of this, I'm sometimes not a fan when a game is trying to tell a specific story. Specifically, I think of Dune: House Secrets.... the concept sounded fun and interesting, but as we played, I very quickly started to have a strong suspicion that our actions ultimately made very little difference in what was happening and how things played out. Even if we managed to fail a mission-end task, the game would step in and ensure the desired outcome would happen, even without our help. I might have been less disappointed if I knew what the game was like going in, but at the time, it felt wholly unsatisfying to go into a game thinking we were going to be major drivers in steering/shaping a story only to find that our participation was entirely optional and our actions irrelevant.
So excited to see a new Table Talk!
I like games with and without stories. A good story just adds to the game and makes it more memorable. But too much text can become a drag if it’s not holding your attention. Apps like Forteller where professional voice actors read out the text is the best way to experience long narrative games.
Wow, I feel like the guy from Jumanji... used to follow your channel about 8 years ago, got married, had kids and stopped playing board games... just recently started playing my mage knight and it all came back to me... started watching your old videos again and ooooh boy, have things changed around here (where are your kids and who are these new faces???) well, I’ll catch up and continue supporting you!
Hi Rodney,
Thanks a lot for another great video. I'm a bit late commenting on this one but I thought I'd write a few words anyway. I am a huge fan of story-driven games. Like you mentioned about yourself, getting something more than the mechanics from a game is a big draw for me. Of course, there should also be some good mechanics to make it enjoyable to play too. I love Arkham Horror LCG, Mansions of Madness and Journeys in Middle Earth. I don't mind taking the time to read the text - it makes me feel as if I am reading a book where we are playing the characters and making all the decisions. What a great way to enter the world! I also try to always read the flavour text on cards out loud on any game I play. I do think that this really helps immerse players into the game. However, I also love heavy euros, and in games that are less story-driven, like Terraforming Mars, it is probably less fun for the other players if I read everything out so I keep it to a minimum in these cases. Games like Nemesis are amazing in the way they set the scene for you, but the story itself comes out through the play and needs no story text. That to me shows genius in game design. Anyway, sorry for the long comment. Thanks for all the hard work you do!
This is a great topic! If I may present a somewhat hot take. I think that many people when talking about "narrative" in there board games interchange two actual kinds of narrative. This is also common in the video game world, but the kind of narrative you present in, say, Arkham Horror: The Card Game, is distinctly different from a narrative that people create is something like Root. It's the difference between storytelling (the game telling you a story) and emergent narrative (the act of play generating the narrative) and I think both are valid and have their places! In fact, this dichotomy is the literal definition of a TRPG, where the DM represents the storyteller and the player represent actors emerging a narrative together. But I digress, I think the main trouble people get into is when they are expecting one of these narrative over the other. For example, if I went into AH looking to build my own story with characters from my imagination, and then was presented with a story already built for me, I can imagine being disappointed. And if I was prepared a well paced and thoughtful narrative with twists and turns, and then went into some EuroGame where I had to "make" my own story out of it, I can imagine being disappointed as well. It comes down to expectations and preferences, but either approach is valid!
Love a game with a strong theme that lends itself to generating your own stories-Obsession being a favorite. Also really enjoy the more narrative-heavy games that are more and more popular.
Lately I have been stuck on Cthulhu DMD, which reminds me of a Choose your own adventure story, where as its the same book with a ton of different story avenues to get to the end that has 3 or more different outcomes. With DMD its die early, die late or win.
I just played that title for the first time last month!
I like anything that gets people together round a table, that being said i have a mix of story and plain board games but do have the habit of adding a characteristic to my team/army/group of meeples to enhance play in Blood Rage give my clan a specific way to talk, in Western Legends really hamm up the cowboy talk or even in Lords of Vegas my casinos all have a charm of their own. Playing RPG's has probably guided me down this path and enhances my enjoyment of the game i am playing. Always love a story too as long as it fits with the game or drives the narrative.
Thanks for this great, interesting topic and awesome video! Your work is so polished and well made. This really called to mind a series of videos about games (the first I can remember actually) called "Boardgames with Scott" created and "starring" Scott Nicholson. I should search and see if they're still on RUclips! Anyways I remember him bringing out the point of "when does a game tell it's story?" What that meant was not necessarily a "narrative-style" game but more from the perspective of becoming familiar enough with a game -it's mechanincs, it's setting, it's stratgies-that instead of referring to rules minutiae and how to do something in the game, you're now immersed in following through with what exactly the game is trying to "tell" you. Maybe re-creating an historical scenario (war? city building? etc) or becoming the best billionaire mogul, or attracting the most cats to your amazing quilt. That really opened my eyes to how important learning the nuances of game can be and then teaching others to see that as well. Rather than just another "oh look a new game!" (Does this make sense?)
THAT being said I DO love a good actual story in a game - we just played 2 rounds of Forgotten Waters for the first time - same scenario (the first one) and both were completely different experiences! Different group, different player number, but also different choices that led to different events! Was realllly fun!
Wow I'm typing WAY too much - sorry I really connected with this video - thank you again for making this! Loved it
I love narratives in board games, especially games specifically centered around it like trudvang, stars of akarios and lord of the rings journeys in middle earth.
I also love board games like nemesis that gives me the ability to tell a special kind of story that’s not scripted, but isn’t necessary to enjoying the game. If I want to be just tactile and make the best choices and just play it as a game or create a world for 2hrs with my friends, I can do so.
But narrative isn’t the end all be all for games. Sometimes, I just want to game and other nights I wanna be immersed in them. It’s really amazing how flexible board games can be and how deep or not you really want to dive into the worlds they create.
I love the overall sentiment here - there is no one right answer for how much story a game needs. Having been at The Op for a number of years now, story is something we talk about a lot. For our IP based games, even abstract games like Checkers or Chess, we put a lot of thought into how to make the mechanics match well with the story in order to best serve the fans. Sometimes, we go narrative heavy if we think the target audience for the IP will be open to that, for other games we'll focus more on art, flavor text, and subtle nods to the fans. For example, the Critical Role fan base is familiar with RPGs and getting into character, so they might be much more open to creating their own narratives (a la Chaz) than some other fan bases that may have less overlap with the tabletop community. Sometimes, fans just want to relive their favorite story, not write a new one.
When looking at inventor games, or new games to buy, I think a lot about how likely the audience (customers or my gaming group) might respond to art and theme because this really does impact which games hit the table often. Dog Park was a slam dunk with one of my gaming groups because everyone in it has a dog they love. Unsurprisingly the group became very invested in which dogs they walked and what treats and toys those pups preferred. I find in that particular group, theme comes alive more. I tend to be mechanics focused as it is such a big part of my day job, but having friends who read the flavor text and look closely at the art helps me experience things I might miss otherwise.
Another game group I play in is all game designers, and the discussion there tends to focus on mechanics. Interestingly, a different type of story tends to emerge, relative to bold strategies, hard luck moments, or outright backstabbing - the stories we create are based on the play pattern, not the theme. Sometimes the best, most enduring, game group stories emerge from a big moment in the player interaction. I'd argue that hidden role games offer incredible story opportunities with just a bit of story text in the rules, and a game play that creates an intense player interaction based on mistrust, I still reference moments from these games years later - but rarely remember any flavor text from games.
Great post. My crew goes both ways. When we play games like Above and Below we read the story using character voices and even use sound effects. However with some games we skip the flavor text altogether. It depends on how the story adds to the experience.
Great video and an interesting topic, Rodney. I just got into this hobby last year, so I don't have too much experience with stories in boardgames yet, but the idea is enticing. I've bought Betrayal and Gloomhaven jaws of the lion, but haven't had a chance to play yet. It'll be interesting to see how it goes!
Last week I played Lords of Waterdeep for the first time with my wife, who is not a regular board gamer. Ultimately I was ignoring flavor text and not naming colored cubes "rogues", "wizards", "clerics" and "fighters" just not to make the game nerdy. And... my wife ultimately LOVED Lords of Waterdeep, and even asked me if it'd be a good idea to play it with our daughter :)
I think at this stage in my life, I've come to the conclusion that the story IS the game.
100 times out of 100 I would rather lose a game and create a unique experience, than win a game by figuring out the meta.
It's more of a thrill to follow a character's impulses and lose colorfully, than to drag that character through a generic strategy and win.
Nemesis and Zombicide come to mind as I write this. Thanks so much for the discussion! I'm so glad gaming is a "Thing" for people like us.
It’s easy for me to find and plug into the narrative aspect of a game involving a character in the midst of an adventure or a mystery and I love that. I can put myself in their shoes and live out the story. Campaign games that develop my character and the game’s world are some of my favorites.
But just as enjoyable (maybe more so) are the narratives created by the players of a game. Something like Twilight Imperium or other civilization builder becomes such an awesome story telling experience just from the interactions, battles and political happenings between everyone. Those stories are so memorable even though the game itself may not be telling the majority of the story.
I love games with narrative in either of those types. But that’s not the only selling point for me. Art and theme are big drivers for me too. Wingspan was the perfect example. I love the art and I’m a birdwatcher as well, so the art and little facts on each card does just as much to hold my interest and draw me in.
Definitely read flavor text for myself; sometimes read it aloud, especially if that's something that the table is enjoying. Again will point to Obsession as a great example of a game where you can make a lot out of the flavor text and come up with your own stories.
As for ways a game has story that you may have missed, my mind immediately goes to the game "Once Upon a Time", which is in it's very concept a 'story telling game'. So you're telling the story and (in large part) that IS the game. I love that game a lot because it is very interactive.
That said, I don't have many 'story' games outside of that one. I think one of the reasons for that is that when a game goes all in to tell a story, especially when it has cool set pieces and artwork and minis and whatnot, it is also usually more expensive.
Another big factor is what kind of story is being told. I find that when you purposefully avoid anything horror or fantasy, your offer in immersive story games quickly diminishes.
I thought that I would love story games, because I love to read. However, when we played Arkhams horror I felt kind of like we were wandering around in the dark and it was too much work and not enough fun. Above and Below is the perfect amount of storytelling for me. We love the game and it feels like a fun imaginary world! We also love to play Imperial settlers and Paladins! I like it if a bit of story telling adds to the game but doesn’t become the game. Great to see you Rodney.
I love the story aspect of tabletop games, likely for the same reasons I love the RPG genre of video games. What makes tabletop superior is how I can enjoy the story while my friends and loved ones carry out their roles in the story with me. The game that brought me into tabletop was Descent: Journeys in the Dark 2e (which I first heard about on this channel), and I continue to love it to this day!
Great video Rodney! For me... I was drawn to board games during the pandemic, and due to the situation, I was limited to games that included solo variants. Since I didn't have the opportunity to play with others and I dislike anything digital, I found the best balance in Eurogames. If I have a group of friends I feel that Legacy or RPG style games provide a better thematic experience than for solo, but for now, I find peace playing solo Eurogames. Theme is a bonus but does not need to be part of the game to bring the experience that I'm looking for. Lacrimosa is probably the closest I can get to theme driven-ish 😁I am starting to dive into wargames like Cuba Libre though....Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
I always love trying to add in a story based on events during the game, even if there's no "story text" or anything. But it definitely depends on the players at the table. Some do better with having the story laid out in front of them as a jumping off point. Others are able to spin stories just from a euro game that's not supposed to have any story. I know I've tried spinning stories up, but it's hard when you're the only one doing it, and if players are doing more min/maxing than they are playing to what might be a narrative. It's definitely hard to go against what might be a winning move for you, and to instead do a move for the story beat.
I love a game that has some kind of lore to it and for that reason, out of the classic board games, Cluedo is my personal favorite. Discovering how each of the suspects were connected to Mr Boddy, why did Boddy invite the suspects to his mansion, and their motives for murder. One little rule that bothered me was why did Miss Scarlet always go first until I read in an older rules book that she found the body - so I then decided that whoever goes first found Mr. Boddy's body. For some silly little improv, one special house rule that I had was that if you're playing as the murderer, you have to give a confession. I have written my own lore for Cluedo too, I used to write murder mysteries on a forum for people to solve and I still keep my hand in sometimes
Absolutely loved this guys. Rodney you are my favourite presenter on RUclips.
On the topic. I don't think story is essential, memorable moments with my group are though. My game group loves the crew, not for the stories but for the tension and the moments when we triumph.
I tend to be put off by most games that have an explicit narrative as a fundamental component of the design. But that's not to say that I don't enjoy narrative in games. Rather, I think that emphasizing emergent narrative through player action lends itself more to the unique potential of tabletop gaming. If I'm looking for something more conventional in storytelling, I'd rather play a tabletop RPG that gives players enormous freedom. So it sounds like I'm most in line with Matthew's perspective here.
But I love your comments towards the end about a design dangling narrative hooks in front of us without over-explaining everything. Ultimately, I think that this ties in with my overall preferences: storytelling in games should put player agency in the storytelling itself front and center. We should be the chief arbiters of what stories are to be told, not just in how a story is told or what the details are.
This is an interesting thing.When it comes to solo games I love narative being in the game. When I'm a solo player in Arkham Horror LCG.I love the feeling I get, as I battle cultists and things that the human mind should never see.
But for multiplayer games, I know most ppl dont feel the same draw to the story that I do....and for that reason I love hidden role games or just asymmetric games like Fury of Dracula. I think there is something special about the narrative when you are versing someone that is living breathing and sitting at the table.
There is a dangerous thing about to much narrative. I was playing Battlestar Galactica with some friends and one of the players was getting way to much into it from a roleplaying perspective that he was hampering the other human players. I think thats why I think its hard to get that particular game in front of them again, even though that person doesn't even play with us any longer.
I'm sorry I missed this one. We like the storyline elements of games. I'm not sure we just go for the story, but even if the game is not a story, we sometimes add a story. We love to look at the castles and features of the map in Carcassonne, or we will talk about a good night or a slow night at Taverns of Tiefenthal. We love bringing any game alive, even Castles of Burgundy!!
Thank you Rodney! Great topic that I never really thought about!Sleeping Gods is one of my games that I adore. I love the flavor text, the narrative. Although the narrative is some what disconnected, I make connections myself!
I've been a writer for over 35 years so, story is something I love. I've only been gaming for about 4 months and haven't found that story driven game...yet. I'd love to lose myself in a great game with a wonderful story. Having said that, it's certainly not paramount for me that a game have a story. I've played games like Skull and absolutely loved it - zero story there. Cheers!
I think stories in games have even more dimensions than this. One thing I expected in the video when Rodney was standing next to the Kallax with a cube of COIN games next to him was for him to take one out and talk about how games can RE-tell stories. Stories of history and people, things we know have happened. In some cases, games like these allow us to find out why or how they happened that way, when the games mechanics guide you to strategies that were historically used as well, like how Twilight Struggle paces you and pushes you to influence certain countries in a particular way.
In other cases, games allow you to find out "what could have happened" by you taking a very different approach, or by getting completely different outcomes to the history, like a completely independent Afghanistan in Pax Pamir or a Syndicate-controlled Cuba in Cuba Libre. (Similar stories to COIN games can come out the fictional world of Root, especially given how full of personality the components in Root are!)
Or if you're playing a game based on a fictional story, then how that story could have gone differently. Seeing War Of The Ring end up with a victory for Sauron or a game where Aragorn died, for example.
This is the kind of storytelling--storytelling through the mechanics and possibility space of the game--that you can also find (though perhaps less explicitly as "storytelling") in some Eurogames. Tigris & Euphrates is famously dry, but also a great example of the story of the rise and fall of civilizations and kingdoms in ancient Mesopotamia.
I really enjoyed this episode of Table Talk! One of my recent games that gives away to imaginative storytelling is Roll Camera.
I say that story telling in games depends on the game. If they are quick games, you might not care too much. But some games, story telling makes the game, they add so much depth and colour to the game. For example, "This War of Mine" has an amazing story telling to the game, where it's not too long, but long enough for you to get emotionally involved. Losing a character can hurt, but you know it's a part of life, but you feel so much for the game.
Some games, you don't need much story telling. A game I'm starting to play again, "Letters from Whitechapel" great story telling, yet it doesn't say too much, since its a historically accurate game that involved real people. To play and escape each night as Jack, or to be the police, to investigate each move hoping to catch Jack, makes the game so intense, and everyone get so involved in it. You don't feel like the characters, but you sure do enjoy the art of escape and capture.
Another game I can think of is Pandemic, which is interesting. The game doesn't need story telling, but if you buy the Legacy game (which I have yet to play), you get to enjoy the characters and what happens in that game affect your next gameplay. And that's why so many people like to play the Legacy version of Pandemic rather then just the main replay able game.
So many games I could say just add a major element of your game, and makes you want to be that character, but yet, not every game needs a story.
Yeah - this is a great topic. I had an ambitious notion to record all my moves on games played and use them as a framework to tell a story. Tried it out with Voyages, the roll-and-write, to good effect - though it certainly added to the play time.
Great video!
For a long time I have mostly played games with a short framing narrative at the beginning of the rule books. Like Dominion, Munchkin, Clue or Pandemic. I enjoy leaning into the story a bit, especially Munchkin. I recently purchased and played Legends of Andor, which is my first real story-driven game. I definitely felt more involved in the game, rather than simply trying to use math and mechanics to win the game. I saw The Adventures of Robin Hood at my game store and gave the box a quick read. I love legend based games, but when I saw that it had the story book as part of the game play, I thought, "that's really cool, but it might be a bit much." For me, a game is fine with just basic framing narrative, but a story-driven game experience can definitely be a step above.
I love storytelling in games. An example of something I expected to adore was Flamecraft. It looked like a story bursting off the pages. For some reason, I can't find that story, though. I do not know why. I am so happy the game is doing well. Something I did not expect to be very thematic at all was Robinson Crusoe and yet I feel like I am on a wild episode of Survivor when we play it. An example of when something got in the way probably *because* of storytelling was in Familiar Tales. Without spoilers, there was a very minimal side character introduced who needed to be rescued. To top this off, it was a child. The other three people I was playing with were thinking about the campaign's main goals, and how Ben was much closer toward being able to help with that side quest than anybody else. However, on my turn, I immediately went to help the side character, in full-on rescue mode, not trying to take over or steal anybody's thunder, but because I HAD to save that child. It's inconceivable to me to think logistics at a time like that! My strategy was that I might not be successful, and then Ben could try, and the whole story would utterly halt until this side character was saved!!!! The most immersive story I've ever played is Sleeping gods. I feel so deep into the lore, like sinking into a world under a mist. My hub and I probably played that game slower than anybody ever has, because we stopped and talked through decisions and explored EVERYTHING. XD We want to play another campaign of it. The only problem with being that immersed, and being a perfectionist, is that when we did make a mistake, we didn't play for weeks because I felt terrible! XD So far as being immersed because of artwork alone or almost exclusively, Forbidden Island is the best case of that for me.
One of the most popular games in my gaming group is "Its a Wonderful World". this isn't just because its a fun game thats easy to figure out, but it sparked conversation about what these dystopian nations are like and some have even come up with backstories for the general and financier characters that appear on the box and are used as points for the game.
Really enjoy this kind of content.
Stories come in all sorts of types and lengths, and come sometimes before, after, or during the game. I feel some are more well done than others and some are of more appropriate length than others. Just to give a few examples personally:
- Arkham Horror Card Game (played 3 and 4 player): The earlier campaigns of this game left much to be desired story-wise. Often there was only a few sentences or so describing the scenario. However, I played Edge of the Earth and that campaign almost flips it to the other side. A well written story that's a little bit too much for a board game. I feel there's a happy medium here to be had.
- Middara (played 4 player): I played Middara Act 1. As this 80 hour game is about 23 hours of story (if read by Forteller), this story was clearly too much narrative, but we continued to play because we loved the gameplay and mechanics that much (I think it's my group's favorite game due to mechanics and despite story length)
- Gloomhaven (played 3 and 4 player): This "story" was very convoluted and had no focus. While I felt this had an appropriate amount of text for what it was, it basically made no sense. My groups stopped reading it all together.
- Sleeping Gods (played 2 player): This game is definitely worth mentioning as it's basically a big choose-your-own-adventure book. This game was amazing and the story of it was the focus! It felt great to be so free to go out and do whatever you wanted in an unknown world. The mechanics also felt like they supported the story enough without getting in the way of the enjoyment.
- 7th Continent (played 2 player): Just wanted to leave off with an example of me feeling the mechanics got in the way of story. The exploration, discovery, and puzzles in this game were top notch, but the survival (mechanical) aspect of the game where you had to continually hunt for food constantly got in the way of the fun parts of the game CONSTANTLY. Often we would say "Time to go back to hunt for a while" and sigh while doing so. We played this once and haven't come back to it.