I was in the market for the ARC Studio and came across this video. You’re the sole reason I went for the trinnov. The minute I dialed it in it immediately became my most valuable piece of gear. Can’t thank you enough for this video!
Good review, Ed! I have both Sound ID and ARC Studio. ARC Studio blows Sound ID away, in MY room. I have a small 15'x20' room with a short hallway about 12'x8' opening to the room. I corrected low end standing waves with some extra brick that I had, which helped. My cloud isn't as dense as I would like, but it helps. ARC really opened every frequency up and the phase alignment is now on point, giving a more accurate reference. IK media is not paying for this endorsement.
One thing to mention ADAM Audio monitors can store the SoundID calibration into the DSP of the speaker thus removing the need to have any plugin running, and to deal with the any software induced latency.
So, I got mine and was like; why doesn't it come with a rackmount kit, or something! So, after talking to IK Multimedia and saying there is not one, I decided to do some research and came up with this under-desk mount. Easy install, secure and most of all it works lol...! I mounted it to my right within arm's length, so I can use the bypass at ease without having to take up unneeded space on top of my mixer and desk.... I wonder if they thought about this when they made it? Who wants this little box sitting on the desk? In addition, when you try to use the bypass just sitting on the desk, you have to hold the box and then push the button, otherwise it will slide backwards, or place it against the wall or something keeping it from moving. Overall, awesome unit, save me from taking the software off the mixbus at bouncing and many times forgetting to do so...lol! Anyway, I got two in the shipment, so I msg them, and they said to just keep it or give it away. Msg me, and it's yours, just cover the shipping cost! Cheers, love the channel and content. Learned a lot! ARC Hardware Under-Desk Mounting Kit: reverb.com/item/81951079-mountz-ik-multimedia-arc-studio-room-correction-hardware-specific-mounting-kit-with-mountz-locking-system-2024-black
I have the Neumann KH120 with KH750, but I had always done manual correction and never used the MA-1. I presumed (falsely, due to lack of documentation at the time) that the MA-1 would simply adjust the 8 EQ bands that exist in the manual setup. How wrong I was! Will definitely have to invest in the MA-1 and give it a go. Thanks for the in-depth video!
@@EdThorne I bought it. Been using it for 3 days. Man, I'm so happy! At first it sounded very similar to my manual correction (using a PreSonus PRM-1 mic), but it's night/day difference after having time to judge it in more detail. It seems to do something with the phase response, too. Phantom centre sounds really solid and tight. Highs do have more clarity and little stray transients here and there show up much clearer. I had to turn down the bass as it accentuated it a LOT here, just as it did with yours. I prefer "flatter" for my own ears (personal preference). Again, thanks so much for the vid. Didn't know I even needed the MA1, but now I'm going to reap the benefits!
And the father of all this tech is introduced in 2005 by Genelec, it's almost 20 years now. With their SAM speaker lineup, you get something similar to Neumann's MA1...But because they have more experience in this tech. I believe they'll be more accurate than MA1... I'm in love with my 8351's. Great comparision!
Very thorough review. FYI, the audient (Oria) only comes with a 60 day trial of SoundID, it costs €499 to buy the software (€549 if you want the MIC) after that.
Great video 👍🏼 I'm busy with room correction and finally went the d.i.y. way REW and a dedicated DSP. ARC studio looked nice but I decided not to go that route. 1st of all because of the lack of a subwoofer output and 2nd because the hardware is dedicated to the software and needs to be registered which I absolutely don't like. By the way the 'normal' curve looks close to the Harman speaker target. Some people like to correct their speakers to a flat curve, some prefer the Harman speaker curve. For me personally a dedicated sub correction is a must for phase alignment, also because I can set the crossover point to my liking. Another thing that I miss is the fact that the eq corrections are predicted corrections, how they actually end up needs a new measurement i.m.o. What I noticed with both IK-Multimedia and Sonarworks is that they boost correction dips in the frequency response. According to what I found out you get better results with only cutting and do as less as possible and preferable not any boosting. If you want a simple solution with set and forget then Sonarworks and IK-Multimedia are nice but if you want a better correction and more knowledge about what's going on under the hood, check your decay times, excellent phase alignment then it's either Trinov or go d.i.y. with REW and a dedicated DSP imo 😁
@@Chaos-Dynamics Yeah I followed Eric Valentines journey in achieving the best possible results, he went totally all in with his acoustic treatment. That guy is a genius 👍🏼
Yep, it's no good trying to force more energy into a null, it will still for the most part cancel out. It you can work out what's casuing the nulls and acoustically treat for that, you'll get a much better result.
Trinnov's additional license thing is highly questionable. You've got the hardware already, but you aren't allowed to use it to its full extend unless you pay another $1000 for two more outputs. Fuck this.
Yeah that is grimy especially for how much the hardware costs. Great mixes that we grew up listening to existed well before Trinnov was a thing. I am sure it is a great unit, but not for that price point to only charge you more to use features already built into the hardware so it is neutered on day one.
Great, comprehensive review Ed. Nice one. About 5 years ago I tried a Trinnov D-Mon and like you, really hated it at first, now I find it very difficult to work without. It recently went in for repair and I was so distracted for a month! It's so confidence inspiring, even in a well treated room. My NS10s sound incredible and ATCs sound unreal. Really interesting to have a look at the competition, though.
I‘m on the Neumann KH120 with KH750DSP since 2021 … for almost of 1,5 year Didn‘t use the MA-1 cause my room was shit without any acoustic Treatments during this Time But i learned my Neumann‘s … than i was upgrading the room with acoustic Treatments … and since 12/2023 i was using the MA-1 -> it was really a big thing of Impact 👍💪👍 … i love These beasts 🤩👍🤩 …
Interesting video. Out here in the cheap seats -- and still on the hunt for a decent pair of monitors for a bedroom studio -- I think I'm leaning towards the ARC system, probably built into the DSP on iLoud Micro Monitor Pros, but possibly stand-alone ARC + some other set. That looks to net the best possible price-performance ratio. WRT the "Default" setting in the ARC, it's my understanding that it's intended to replicate a pseudo-Harman curve.
Hi, just watched your excellent video, just after buying and installing the ARC Studio system! I can't comment about the other systems. The ARC has definitely improved my sound, it sounds clearer, more open. I really like the fact that it's in a stand alone box as my 'puter is already struggling sometimes. Setting up was easy, I used the 7 point system for quick results (cos if it was no good I'd have sent it back!) but the results mean I shall now be redoing the measurements using the 21 system when I have more time. The only downside, on the ARC and from what I can see on the others you reviewed too, is, do I measure with my chair in place or not? And even, should I be in place or not? To me, my body and my chair, especially I high backed one, must be affecting the acoustics and what is being received by the calibration mic. I did my calibration with the chair in place but me out of the way. I'd be interested in hearing your views on that point. For the money I think the ARC is great. Cheers.
When you do the SoundID walkthrough, I see a preset labeled "Sub + iso + MA1." Is that a Sonarworks curve made with the MA-1 system enabled? Very curious how that came out if so.
From your experience: Does the M1 Alignment kit work well with other speaker brands than Neumann? I would love to use the M1 Alignment Kit with a sub, but I use the ATC 45A
In Arc4 use the surrounding eq nodes to act as a Q by pushing them closer or further to the node that you want a Q on. This will use up nodes so there is that.
Thank you Ed for the comprehensive video-really helpful! I have both the Sound ID and MA1 room correction software and mics, but I now only use SoundID with my headphones, as I found it a bit of a pain, switching between more than one set of monitors and remembering to switch calibrations. It doesn't work well in that instance; especially if you're using a monitor controller to do the switching .
Glad it was helpful! Yeh, I forgot to even mention the system wide part of Sound iD is fiddly and you can’t use it if using analog outboard gear… Makes much more sense to have a fixed outboard processor doing the correction.
I suspect the trinnov headphone out might be delayed to be in sync with the delay that the trinnov has for processing correction. I have the older ST2 and it reports 16ms of delay from input to be output. When I put on phones while the mains are on I can hear it, same with loud phones when the mains are really low. I'm 100% guessing.
If a calibration program measures standing waves in your room that cause frequency dips and you try to boost them with EQ, what happens is that you end up amplifying those standing waves. The problematic frequencies can only be eliminated through speaker placement or room treatment. It's somewhat surprising that no one mentions this fact.
It doesn't measure standing waves. It just measures a lack of low end from the listening position. So it'll boost the bass to give you an accurate representation from where you'll be sitting (That's what Sonarworks does anyway. Idk about these other ripoffs)
Hi Ed, thanks for a detailed video. I use sound I'd ref 4 with Neumann KH 120A...not the dsp ones. Have you tested the upgrade they're peddling for 89 bucks? If so, does it handle the phase problem differently? Another plus is that in November they will suck another 79 out of me for a patch that makes it a part of my Apollo twin. No need for a plug in. Please, if you have time, let me hear from you.
@@EdThorne Too late damage done! lol. Have all 3 in my CR at the moment, arc, sonarworks and nova. Between the Nova and ARC to me its closer than I expected, ARC is incredible for the money. I'm keeping mine for low latency tracking until Trinnov hopefully sort that... but yes, extra maybe 15%, 3D and sound field accuracy to the Nova.
The only competitor missing is Dirac Live, and I think between Trinnov, Neumann and Dirac, they're the best offerings based on their features. Trinnov is at the highest premium followed by Neumann and Dirac. Genelec's offerings are great too. And I'd pick Arc over Sound ID.
I’m testing Dirac live since yesterday and I have to say it works pretty well. Listening to a lot of reference tracks and I’m testing it for the coming two weeks. I think I will probably get the MiniDSP with the Dirac license. The time alignment is pretty good and with the MiniDSP I can load my own REW filters too. Also I can use the second pair of outputs with different filters for my headphone amp which is great 👍🏼
Really well done video as always. ARC seems to be a good value for your cheddar overall. Trinnov is a hard NO because of the price. I can slap on a pair of my Neumann headphones and take my room out of the equation and Bob's your uncle. For RME users like myself, they have room correction EQ built in TotalMix so you can run REW for free, get your measurements and and make your corrections in TotalMix and it is Dolby Atmos capable if that is your style. An RME interface comes in well below the Trinnov and the savings could be used towards other gear. Just my 3 cents.
The question is whether RME uses FIR and IIR filters for the correction or is it just a dynamic equalizer? Also does it have delay compensation? Maybe I should take a look at the specs. (looking at the specs at RME I couldn’t find anything about room correction only that there is a possibility of delay compensation on all outputs and the eq which can be applied to the outputs, which is great because many interfaces can only do this on the inputs so it could be used for correction depending on the filter types)
Great review. Thank you! I just received the ARC to replace my Sound ID. Hey, here's a question... What if I do the ARC measurements using the Sonarworks microphone instead? Do you think it might measure the bass response better. The Arc mic looks really cheap and crappy. Thanks!
This is a great question. If you try it please let me know the results. As long as you have the mic calibration profile it could work. Apparently they’re both MEMs mics but the Sound iD mic is also listed as an Electrotet Condenser (which isn’t a MEMs as far as I understand - so I’m not sure who’s wrong - them or me🤣)
I’ve just purchased a pair of kh310s but my room acoustics are not great at all… I and am thinking about getting a sub for the extended low end and also DSP capability which will allow me to use the MA1 with my 310s to get a much better sound out of them. Would you recommend this?
I just got a 750 for my 310s; mainly to use the MA1, the difference it made is like night and day. The phase correction opened up the system making it sound even more expensive
I am currently using the Neumann KH120's and Eve Audio TS108 sub and am torn between either adding the IK ARC Studio to my monitors or change my Eve sub for the Neumann KH750 and use MA-1. What would you recommend?
So, ARC is a stereo system only. It can’t individually phase correct and time align the subwoofer to the tops. The MA 1 system can, so you’ll have a more cohesive low end with the KH750 sub. Also, I think the MA1 gets a better EQ curve in general.
Hey Ed, thanks for the video. It was very informative and untill now the only one that helped me so far. I still got a question, you were saying that you were thinking the IKs ARCs mic was bad for measuring low frequencies and therefore the room correction couldnt do its job properly, do you think that by using another this would fix the problem? Has anybody tried this?
I didn’t say it was bad, I said it didn’t feel as accurate as the the MA1/Trinnov. I’ve tweaked the settings a little since and it sounds good. You’ve just got to tailor it your room a little.
I have been reliably informed that this is a software update on the horizon. Currently no but they know it needs implementing. Likely they’ll release both a hard bypass and a low-latency/reduced processing mode.
It has a bypass option, but it's not zero latency. However depending on your sensitivity to latency, it's not terrible and you can get away with it in some cases. I'm managing with the current ability for playing midi parts using Komplete and Maschine for example), but look forward to a lower latency option.
Can I buy one Trinnov box and move the box from my studo room and to my audiophile hi-fi listening room when not in use in one location so I can get the benefit when I'm listening back to music as well as mixing it? Do you need 2 licenses for 2 rooms or can you save a profile and switch it when you move room?
I dont trust any Room Correction system until I check the results in REW, you should check the correction of ARC with REW to know what is doing in the low end
Yes. I’m using analogue inputs from my X16 and 96k is the current highest sample rate available. I’m not sure why the UI has options for higher - maybe there’s an update coming 🤞
Ed, I appreciate your video. I have Focal Solo6's. In your opinion which of the systems you have described I should get? I also am using RME UFX III which now has room EQ in TotalMIx but not sure if I should use this.
Thank you Ed ! Very good overview But I seriously wonder whether using an active kh750 in combination with two PSI A23s will result in a system as well phase aligned as if the Neumann KH750 were used with, say, a pair of Neumann KH 120 II DSPs. Put another way, it begs the question: why did you deactivate the KH 750 in your configuration with the A23s? Didn’t it lack power in the bass/sub? Thanks
The Trinnov is defiantly the sound business choice. Anything that ups you mixing and translation game is a no brainer for a business. But, You'd need a substantial start up to include it. I'm have it on the list and will remove quite a lot to include it. You'll mix better with plugins hearing properly than not having that and having a few analogue units to make a small hybrid setup. The Oria is the best choice for Atmos where you can upgrade when your Atmos business earning enough with the D-mon Trinnov for Atmos as it has all the AES you need... and I would chose Oria instead of a Dante interface as the Oria just works with anything Atmos without a headache. You suddenly close your Atmos mixing session and play a Atmos movie, it just works. A important thing I would think for Atmos as you can play a Atmos song through the interface the same way you would playing music right off you computer. It mean you can work and check seamlessly. Maybe a upgraded model can have AES inputs, maybe more analogue inputs too, become a interface and monitor controller for everything... and maybe even make it so much more inclusive and have ARC HDMI outputs (and ins maybe) and so you can even have that going to a Atmos soundbar setup so you can see how mixes translate to that format of Atmos speaker. That will be the most common proper home Atmos setup. You'd clearly will want to test it on the single speaker Bluetooth offerings with Atmos also... but the most common proper home Atmos setups will be soundbars. Having digital AES outs for that many speakers is just a incredible move as so many speakers have AES inputs now. Just wish they had AES inputs to make that interface a complete studio option. The ARC is the best option for budget stereo setups. I will get this along side the Trinnov Nova for cheaper speakers... plan to do RUclips also, so handy for speaker reviews also if cheaper... I'm very brutally honest so probably will not get asked much for that lol. Love your channel, always a great perspective to learn from when someone shows their learning curve as they progress... best way to avoid mistakes that will be mostly unavoidable... will be my angle also. Take care
Please don’t buy cheaper speakers so that you can get the Nova… Get expensive speakers first, and the Nova later when you’re making a healthy profit. The Nova can only do so much when your speakers are limited by their driver quality. You will be much better off getting a decent pair of speakers than you would a cheap pair of speakers + the Nova.
@@EdThorne LOL I can't believe it. Time domain fix which eliminates nulls and after that all the rest. Check and try for yourself. It can work as a software or through MiniDSP devices.
If you move your body out of the listening position you are adversely affecting the correction - since you will be IN the listening position when using the system. Obvs. None of the systems really deal with this issue. Does it have an effect? Yes/No/Maybe who knows? It will vary. The body is acoustically absorbent: cinema seats are modelled to replace the absorbance of the human body when the seat is empty (or used to be). So it's an issue. Very hard to deal with solo! Ideally you'd be seated in the listening position during the measurements. I have ARC4 Studio and Soundworks and homegrown REW based digital correction on different speakers, I'd like to try Trinnov but its price is absurd for a cheap Intel PC board in a box with a few D/A and A/D. If I was a commercial studio, that'd be a different calculation. It's easy (ish) and cheap (er) to add sub/main phase/delay correction using a digital processor if you are technically inclined...
I had SoundID on my setup with a 2019 Intel MBP, and though it did what it should do I grew concerned with how it interacts with my OS. Latency and constantly switching on or off in order to play and track was a challenge, but more than anything I just found that it messed with my computer’s audio management (via Focusrite interface). Through this journey I started with more budget friendly monitors and cheaper headphones and at that time it was a phenomenal upgrade. When I purchased Neumann monitors and headphones I did hear an improvement but the interaction with my system became more of a hinderance than an acceptable improvement. When I upgraded to Clarett and a new M2 MBP I chose NOT to install SoundID. Does anyone know if this system is markedly improved when using Apple Silicon machines? I’d consider installing it, but until I get someone to confirm it works better than on Intel Apple machines I’ll have to pass.
Super cool! Paul sent me here as I use Arc 4 with my Adams A8H's in my well treated mixing room and it's the icing on the cake. 😎 P.S Kali's WS-6.2 sub is phenomenal! Stereo, small, vibration free and very powerful.
Geez, your room is wild in the low end and lower midrange 😅+10 dB at 40Hz and -10db at 100Hz. That seems like way too much to correct with EQ? I would prioritize room acoustics way over a Trinnov system at that point, by a lot. Sonarworks only corrects in 3-4dB at max in my room which has basic treatment.
Yeh, it’s pretty bad. There’s very little I can do with the room (for various reasons including it not being my property), but I am looking to address the 60Hz bump with acoustic treatment. I’m diving down a translation rabbit hole atm and this is part of the problem.
I had sonarworks, ARC 3, currently I have Genelc with GLM, switching from SoundID to Genelec GLM is like driving a Fiat at night without lights and then changing to a Mercedes... .ARC is a little better, but still doesn't fix the phase problems.SoundID is very, very overrated,
By the way, does anyone know that if you sell your IK-Multimedia hardware and the new owner wants to use it they have to pay for a license transfer 😂😂😂
@@EdThorne yeah I heard many people complaining about it. A friend of mine has a guitar interface which his brother wanted to use to try it out, he couldn’t use it because the license. Basically it’s software that has hardware attached to it so the hardware only works with the license. Many people hate IK-Multimedia because of this. I also heard people say that they bought software which had sample libraries go with it, if you want to install those a couple of months later after registering they also let you pay a download fee. These guys are not very customer friendly so to speak.
You can’t correct for Nulls. It is not physically possible. Boosting a null will just result in additional Nulling. None of these systems should boost nulls. Trinnov sound like dogs**t. The FIR filters messes with the transients, and the phase coherence is much too focused on listening position, and not enough attention to the dispersion characteristics of the speaker.
@@EdThorne he means Acourate by AudioVero. It's a tad more complicated to get working, but it can do everything Trinnov does for less than a tenth of the price. It really is a stellar piece of software! The dev is also really helpful if you (like me) need a helping hand the first time you set everything up
IK Multimedia's ARC 4 Studio was a complete joke. The registration and activation process is a damned nightmare!! After a week of failed attempts, the product was returned... and the salesman not the least bit surprised it came back!!! Turns out he doesn't like IK Multimedia either...
hmm i did that in 5 mins or less, arc 4 sound way better than soundid, i mean soundid sound good, but in the low end didnt improve my room, but ARC 4 is almost perfect my low end, and i dont have to use any plugin...most of ik multimedia stuff i dont like it, but ARC 4 is better than i expected .
I was in the market for the ARC Studio and came across this video. You’re the sole reason I went for the trinnov. The minute I dialed it in it immediately became my most valuable piece of gear.
Can’t thank you enough for this video!
Amazing! Great to hear, thanks for the feedback. Enjoy Trinnov!
us poor peasants only have Sound iD vs ARC to choose 😭
Good review, Ed!
I have both Sound ID and ARC Studio. ARC Studio blows Sound ID away, in MY room. I have a small 15'x20' room with a short hallway about 12'x8' opening to the room. I corrected low end standing waves with some extra brick that I had, which helped.
My cloud isn't as dense as I would like, but it helps.
ARC really opened every frequency up and the phase alignment is now on point, giving a more accurate reference.
IK media is not paying for this endorsement.
Yeh, the difference is remarkable. If you can dial in the low end, it’s a very good system.
I agree and was really shocked! Used SW for years... ARC to me sounds way better, more coherent and less 'raggedy'
@@sunstreetstudios6475 I noticed that as well!
One thing to mention ADAM Audio monitors can store the SoundID calibration into the DSP of the speaker thus removing the need to have any plugin running, and to deal with the any software induced latency.
Ah, yes, I’d forgotten about this. Good shout.
So, I got mine and was like; why doesn't it come with a rackmount kit, or something! So, after talking to IK Multimedia and saying there is not one, I decided to do some research and came up with this under-desk mount. Easy install, secure and most of all it works lol...! I mounted it to my right within arm's length, so I can use the bypass at ease without having to take up unneeded space on top of my mixer and desk.... I wonder if they thought about this when they made it? Who wants this little box sitting on the desk? In addition, when you try to use the bypass just sitting on the desk, you have to hold the box and then push the button, otherwise it will slide backwards, or place it against the wall or something keeping it from moving. Overall, awesome unit, save me from taking the software off the mixbus at bouncing and many times forgetting to do so...lol! Anyway, I got two in the shipment, so I msg them, and they said to just keep it or give it away. Msg me, and it's yours, just cover the shipping cost! Cheers, love the channel and content. Learned a lot!
ARC Hardware Under-Desk Mounting Kit:
reverb.com/item/81951079-mountz-ik-multimedia-arc-studio-room-correction-hardware-specific-mounting-kit-with-mountz-locking-system-2024-black
I have the Neumann KH120 with KH750, but I had always done manual correction and never used the MA-1. I presumed (falsely, due to lack of documentation at the time) that the MA-1 would simply adjust the 8 EQ bands that exist in the manual setup. How wrong I was! Will definitely have to invest in the MA-1 and give it a go. Thanks for the in-depth video!
You won’t regret using MA1! It’s very good!
@@EdThorne I bought it. Been using it for 3 days. Man, I'm so happy!
At first it sounded very similar to my manual correction (using a PreSonus PRM-1 mic), but it's night/day difference after having time to judge it in more detail.
It seems to do something with the phase response, too. Phantom centre sounds really solid and tight. Highs do have more clarity and little stray transients here and there show up much clearer. I had to turn down the bass as it accentuated it a LOT here, just as it did with yours. I prefer "flatter" for my own ears (personal preference).
Again, thanks so much for the vid. Didn't know I even needed the MA1, but now I'm going to reap the benefits!
And the father of all this tech is introduced in 2005 by Genelec, it's almost 20 years now. With their SAM speaker lineup, you get something similar to Neumann's MA1...But because they have more experience in this tech. I believe they'll be more accurate than MA1... I'm in love with my 8351's. Great comparision!
Very thorough review. FYI, the audient (Oria) only comes with a 60 day trial of SoundID, it costs €499 to buy the software (€549 if you want the MIC) after that.
Great video 👍🏼
I'm busy with room correction and finally went the d.i.y. way REW and a dedicated DSP.
ARC studio looked nice but I decided not to go that route. 1st of all because of the lack of a subwoofer output and 2nd because the hardware is dedicated to the software and needs to be registered which I absolutely don't like. By the way the 'normal' curve looks close to the Harman speaker target. Some people like to correct their speakers to a flat curve, some prefer the Harman speaker curve. For me personally a dedicated sub correction is a must for phase alignment, also because I can set the crossover point to my liking.
Another thing that I miss is the fact that the eq corrections are predicted corrections, how they actually end up needs a new measurement i.m.o. What I noticed with both IK-Multimedia and Sonarworks is that they boost correction dips in the frequency response. According to what I found out you get better results with only cutting and do as less as possible and preferable not any boosting.
If you want a simple solution with set and forget then Sonarworks and IK-Multimedia are nice but if you want a better correction and more knowledge about what's going on under the hood, check your decay times, excellent phase alignment then it's either Trinov or go d.i.y. with REW and a dedicated DSP imo 😁
@@Chaos-Dynamics Yeah I followed Eric Valentines journey in achieving the best possible results, he went totally all in with his acoustic treatment. That guy is a genius 👍🏼
@@Chaos-Dynamics Also speaker placement and sometimes even your studio desk size can be an issue.
@@Truth565 Each room is unique and you definitely have to start with speaker placement, then acoustic treatment and finally room correction. 👍🏼
Yep, it's no good trying to force more energy into a null, it will still for the most part cancel out. It you can work out what's casuing the nulls and acoustically treat for that, you'll get a much better result.
Trinnov's additional license thing is highly questionable. You've got the hardware already, but you aren't allowed to use it to its full extend unless you pay another $1000 for two more outputs. Fuck this.
Yeh, it’s a bit shit.
Yeah that is grimy especially for how much the hardware costs. Great mixes that we grew up listening to existed well before Trinnov was a thing. I am sure it is a great unit, but not for that price point to only charge you more to use features already built into the hardware so it is neutered on day one.
A lot of car manufacturers are doing the same thing all the time now particularly Tesla. So silly
You rather buy an expansion box to get the extra outputs?
@@annebokma4637 No, I want to use the outputs that are built into the product I already purchased. Maybe a $100 or so to activate, but $900? For what?
Great, comprehensive review Ed. Nice one. About 5 years ago I tried a Trinnov D-Mon and like you, really hated it at first, now I find it very difficult to work without. It recently went in for repair and I was so distracted for a month! It's so confidence inspiring, even in a well treated room. My NS10s sound incredible and ATCs sound unreal. Really interesting to have a look at the competition, though.
Thanks. Glad it was interesting. Trinnov rules though, eh?!
I‘m on the Neumann KH120 with KH750DSP since 2021 … for almost of 1,5 year Didn‘t use the MA-1 cause my room was shit without any acoustic Treatments during this Time But i learned my Neumann‘s … than i was upgrading the room with acoustic Treatments … and since 12/2023 i was using the MA-1 -> it was really a big thing of Impact 👍💪👍 … i love These beasts 🤩👍🤩 …
Interesting video. Out here in the cheap seats -- and still on the hunt for a decent pair of monitors for a bedroom studio -- I think I'm leaning towards the ARC system, probably built into the DSP on iLoud Micro Monitor Pros, but possibly stand-alone ARC + some other set. That looks to net the best possible price-performance ratio. WRT the "Default" setting in the ARC, it's my understanding that it's intended to replicate a pseudo-Harman curve.
Hi, just watched your excellent video, just after buying and installing the ARC Studio system!
I can't comment about the other systems.
The ARC has definitely improved my sound, it sounds clearer, more open.
I really like the fact that it's in a stand alone box as my 'puter is already struggling sometimes.
Setting up was easy, I used the 7 point system for quick results (cos if it was no good I'd have sent it back!) but the results mean I shall now be redoing the measurements using the 21 system when I have more time.
The only downside, on the ARC and from what I can see on the others you reviewed too, is, do I measure with my chair in place or not? And even, should I be in place or not?
To me, my body and my chair, especially I high backed one, must be affecting the acoustics and what is being received by the calibration mic.
I did my calibration with the chair in place but me out of the way.
I'd be interested in hearing your views on that point.
For the money I think the ARC is great.
Cheers.
When you do the SoundID walkthrough, I see a preset labeled "Sub + iso + MA1." Is that a Sonarworks curve made with the MA-1 system enabled? Very curious how that came out if so.
The ARC appears to do some sort of conversion, did you notice any changes in the quality of the audio?
They all incorporate a stage of conversion except Sound iD. So equally they all suffer the same minimalistic degradation.
From your experience: Does the M1 Alignment kit work well with other speaker brands than Neumann? I would love to use the M1 Alignment Kit with a sub, but I use the ATC 45A
In Arc4 use the surrounding eq nodes to act as a Q by pushing them closer or further to the node that you want a Q on. This will use up nodes so there is that.
This is a great review of all the major options. Thanks so much!
Thanks, hope it was insightful.
Thank you Ed for the comprehensive video-really helpful! I have both the Sound ID and MA1 room correction software and mics, but I now only use SoundID with my headphones, as I found it a bit of a pain, switching between more than one set of monitors and remembering to switch calibrations. It doesn't work well in that instance; especially if you're using a monitor controller to do the switching
.
Glad it was helpful! Yeh, I forgot to even mention the system wide part of Sound iD is fiddly and you can’t use it if using analog outboard gear… Makes much more sense to have a fixed outboard processor doing the correction.
I suspect the trinnov headphone out might be delayed to be in sync with the delay that the trinnov has for processing correction. I have the older ST2 and it reports 16ms of delay from input to be output. When I put on phones while the mains are on I can hear it, same with loud phones when the mains are really low. I'm 100% guessing.
This is a very good point. Thanks for the suggestion.
If a calibration program measures standing waves in your room that cause frequency dips and you try to boost them with EQ, what happens is that you end up amplifying those standing waves. The problematic frequencies can only be eliminated through speaker placement or room treatment. It's somewhat surprising that no one mentions this fact.
It doesn't measure standing waves. It just measures a lack of low end from the listening position. So it'll boost the bass to give you an accurate representation from where you'll be sitting
(That's what Sonarworks does anyway. Idk about these other ripoffs)
Definitely the review I was looking for!
I hope it’s helpful.
Hi Ed, thanks for a detailed video. I use sound I'd ref 4 with Neumann KH 120A...not the dsp ones. Have you tested the upgrade they're peddling for 89 bucks? If so, does it handle the phase problem differently? Another plus is that in November they will suck another 79 out of me for a patch that makes it a part of my Apollo twin. No need for a plug in. Please, if you have time, let me hear from you.
Thanks for this, used SW for years, just got the ARC and now Im considering Trinnov... Youve tipped me over the edge im going to demo it!
Haha. Don’t do that! Because you’ll Definitely want it!!!
@@EdThorne Too late damage done! lol. Have all 3 in my CR at the moment, arc, sonarworks and nova. Between the Nova and ARC to me its closer than I expected, ARC is incredible for the money. I'm keeping mine for low latency tracking until Trinnov hopefully sort that... but yes, extra maybe 15%, 3D and sound field accuracy to the Nova.
The only competitor missing is Dirac Live, and I think between Trinnov, Neumann and Dirac, they're the best offerings based on their features.
Trinnov is at the highest premium followed by Neumann and Dirac. Genelec's offerings are great too. And I'd pick Arc over Sound ID.
Somehow I hadn’t heard of Dirac before people started commenting about it 🤣
I’m testing Dirac live since yesterday and I have to say it works pretty well. Listening to a lot of reference tracks and I’m testing it for the coming two weeks. I think I will probably get the MiniDSP with the Dirac license. The time alignment is pretty good and with the MiniDSP I can load my own REW filters too. Also I can use the second pair of outputs with different filters for my headphone amp which is great 👍🏼
Really well done video as always. ARC seems to be a good value for your cheddar overall. Trinnov is a hard NO because of the price. I can slap on a pair of my Neumann headphones and take my room out of the equation and Bob's your uncle. For RME users like myself, they have room correction EQ built in TotalMix so you can run REW for free, get your measurements and and make your corrections in TotalMix and it is Dolby Atmos capable if that is your style. An RME interface comes in well below the Trinnov and the savings could be used towards other gear. Just my 3 cents.
Thanks. Good info about Total Mix!🔥
The question is whether RME uses FIR and IIR filters for the correction or is it just a dynamic equalizer? Also does it have delay compensation? Maybe I should take a look at the specs.
(looking at the specs at RME I couldn’t find anything about room correction only that there is a possibility of delay compensation on all outputs and the eq which can be applied to the outputs, which is great because many interfaces can only do this on the inputs so it could be used for correction depending on the filter types)
This is a remarkable video. Reeks of honesty.
Great review. Thank you! I just received the ARC to replace my Sound ID. Hey, here's a question... What if I do the ARC measurements using the Sonarworks microphone instead? Do you think it might measure the bass response better. The Arc mic looks really cheap and crappy. Thanks!
This is a great question. If you try it please let me know the results. As long as you have the mic calibration profile it could work. Apparently they’re both MEMs mics but the Sound iD mic is also listed as an Electrotet Condenser (which isn’t a MEMs as far as I understand - so I’m not sure who’s wrong - them or me🤣)
@@EdThorne Haha. Ok all good. I'll give it go and report back! Thanks.
Any findings? @@deanmasi6684
Hubiera sido interesante ver Dirac Live, que corrige problemas de fase e impulso como Trinnov, y es algo que ARC y SundID no hacen.
Please compare Trinnov with Dirac 💛💙
I’ve just purchased a pair of kh310s but my room acoustics are not great at all… I and am thinking about getting a sub for the extended low end and also DSP capability which will allow me to use the MA1 with my 310s to get a much better sound out of them.
Would you recommend this?
Absolutely! MA1 is great. But so is Arc. I’m using that for my Amphions
I just got a 750 for my 310s; mainly to use the MA1, the difference it made is like night and day. The phase correction opened up the system making it sound even more expensive
@@zebastian21 my next big studio purchase for sure!
I am currently using the Neumann KH120's and Eve Audio TS108 sub and am torn between either adding the IK ARC Studio to my monitors or change my Eve sub for the Neumann KH750 and use MA-1. What would you recommend?
So, ARC is a stereo system only. It can’t individually phase correct and time align the subwoofer to the tops. The MA 1 system can, so you’ll have a more cohesive low end with the KH750 sub. Also, I think the MA1 gets a better EQ curve in general.
@@EdThorneThanks 👍🏻
your crossover point in Nova was 1 short of being NICE!
What do you suggest? My settings are the result of a lot of trial and error.
@@EdThorne It was a #69 joke... I'm childish. Great review.
Aaahahaha. Sorry, that went over head🤣🤘
Hey Ed, thanks for the video. It was very informative and untill now the only one that helped me so far. I still got a question, you were saying that you were thinking the IKs ARCs mic was bad for measuring low frequencies and therefore the room correction couldnt do its job properly, do you think that by using another this would fix the problem? Has anybody tried this?
thinking it should, trying with a u87 when my unit arrives
I didn’t say it was bad, I said it didn’t feel as accurate as the the MA1/Trinnov. I’ve tweaked the settings a little since and it sounds good. You’ve just got to tailor it your room a little.
How many output licenses do you need to use a sub with stereo speakers?
Thanks so much for this great review, Ed! Concerning Trinnov, does the Nova have a hard bypass for when you are tracking?
I have been reliably informed that this is a software update on the horizon. Currently no but they know it needs implementing. Likely they’ll release both a hard bypass and a low-latency/reduced processing mode.
It has a bypass option, but it's not zero latency. However depending on your sensitivity to latency, it's not terrible and you can get away with it in some cases. I'm managing with the current ability for playing midi parts using Komplete and Maschine for example), but look forward to a lower latency option.
I have focal twin 6be what system would you recommend ?
ARC unless you need a subwoofer and have the budget for the MA1 system including the KH750 sub.
ANY idea about GLM vs TRINNOV NOVA?
What’s GLM?
@@EdThorne Genelec’s room correction system
Ah, the Genelec correction is the SAM system. I don’t have Genelec’s and this video was long enough as it is. I already owned the KH750 sub.
I'd love a Trinov, but I definitely can't afford it or the Neuman system. Which of the more affordable ones would you recommend?
ARC Studio👌
@@EdThorneAh, I was just able to ginish the video, and got to your recommendations. Thanks for responding as well👍
Can I buy one Trinnov box and move the box from my studo room and to my audiophile hi-fi listening room when not in use in one location so I can get the benefit when I'm listening back to music as well as mixing it?
Do you need 2 licenses for 2 rooms or can you save a profile and switch it when you move room?
You can save multiple “scenes”. So you could easily swap between rooms.
I dont trust any Room Correction system until I check the results in REW, you should check the correction of ARC with REW to know what is doing in the low end
Thank you for that! For Trinnov are you sure that this 96kh limitation is not due to the Spdif selection?
Yes. I’m using analogue inputs from my X16 and 96k is the current highest sample rate available. I’m not sure why the UI has options for higher - maybe there’s an update coming 🤞
Ed,
I appreciate your video. I have Focal Solo6's. In your opinion which of the systems you have described I should get? I also am using RME UFX III which now has room EQ in TotalMIx but not sure if I should use this.
You’re welcome. I’d get ARC. Unless you also want a sub, then get the KH750 + MA1 👌
@@EdThorne Ed,
I appreciate your input and advice. I am glad you had all of these platforms to help me make a good choice.
Saw you had an MA1 test with the MUM’s. Been thinking of getting a pair. What were your thoughts on them?
@@clintyoung9902 theres a video about the MUMS, where he tests MUMS and other contenders
Thank you Ed !
Very good overview
But I seriously wonder whether using an active kh750 in combination with two PSI A23s will result in a system as well phase aligned as if the Neumann KH750 were used with, say, a pair of Neumann KH 120 II DSPs.
Put another way, it begs the question: why did you deactivate the KH 750 in your configuration with the A23s? Didn’t it lack power in the bass/sub?
Thanks
The MA1 system calculates and corrects the phase alignment of all three speakers.
@@EdThorneit does but that’s not how Neumann designed it, it was designed to work with Neumann speakers , anything else your on your own.
Great video Ed!! I’m still running old skool sonarworks (heard soundid crashes a lot for Mac users 🤔) but this was great information! Thank you!
You’re welcome. Hope it was insightful.
i was waiting for that
It’s a long video, but there’s TONs of info. I hope it’s helpful.
@@EdThorne thanks to sharing that I appreciated .
The Trinnov is defiantly the sound business choice.
Anything that ups you mixing and translation game is a no brainer for a business.
But, You'd need a substantial start up to include it.
I'm have it on the list and will remove quite a lot to include it.
You'll mix better with plugins hearing properly than not having that and having a few analogue units to make a small hybrid setup.
The Oria is the best choice for Atmos where you can upgrade when your Atmos business earning enough with the D-mon Trinnov for Atmos as it has all the AES you need... and I would chose Oria instead of a Dante interface as the Oria just works with anything Atmos without a headache.
You suddenly close your Atmos mixing session and play a Atmos movie, it just works.
A important thing I would think for Atmos as you can play a Atmos song through the interface the same way you would playing music right off you computer.
It mean you can work and check seamlessly.
Maybe a upgraded model can have AES inputs, maybe more analogue inputs too, become a interface and monitor controller for everything... and maybe even make it so much more inclusive and have ARC HDMI outputs (and ins maybe) and so you can even have that going to a Atmos soundbar setup so you can see how mixes translate to that format of Atmos speaker.
That will be the most common proper home Atmos setup.
You'd clearly will want to test it on the single speaker Bluetooth offerings with Atmos also... but the most common proper home Atmos setups will be soundbars.
Having digital AES outs for that many speakers is just a incredible move as so many speakers have AES inputs now.
Just wish they had AES inputs to make that interface a complete studio option.
The ARC is the best option for budget stereo setups.
I will get this along side the Trinnov Nova for cheaper speakers... plan to do RUclips also, so handy for speaker reviews also if cheaper... I'm very brutally honest so probably will not get asked much for that lol.
Love your channel, always a great perspective to learn from when someone shows their learning curve as they progress... best way to avoid mistakes that will be mostly unavoidable... will be my angle also.
Take care
Please don’t buy cheaper speakers so that you can get the Nova… Get expensive speakers first, and the Nova later when you’re making a healthy profit. The Nova can only do so much when your speakers are limited by their driver quality. You will be much better off getting a decent pair of speakers than you would a cheap pair of speakers + the Nova.
Exactly this!!!
Good to see Trinnov here, but miss the king of room corrections aka Dirac.
I’ve never heard of this. What am I missing?
@@EdThorne LOL I can't believe it. Time domain fix which eliminates nulls and after that all the rest. Check and try for yourself. It can work as a software or through MiniDSP devices.
When you maybe do the Hedd review, can you give your opioin in comparioson to the MUM-8's?... I don't you got to heAR THE 6'S, but if you did
If you move your body out of the listening position you are adversely affecting the correction - since you will be IN the listening position when using the system. Obvs. None of the systems really deal with this issue. Does it have an effect? Yes/No/Maybe who knows? It will vary. The body is acoustically absorbent: cinema seats are modelled to replace the absorbance of the human body when the seat is empty (or used to be). So it's an issue. Very hard to deal with solo! Ideally you'd be seated in the listening position during the measurements. I have ARC4 Studio and Soundworks and homegrown REW based digital correction on different speakers, I'd like to try Trinnov but its price is absurd for a cheap Intel PC board in a box with a few D/A and A/D. If I was a commercial studio, that'd be a different calculation. It's easy (ish) and cheap (er) to add sub/main phase/delay correction using a digital processor if you are technically inclined...
I've just asked the very same question!
I made my measurements (on the ARC) with the chair in position.
great review, how bad is latency?
With the ARC no latency at all!
Is possible to use the MA1 with Neumann KH120 II and a PreSonus Eris Sub8?
No. Because the MA1 system ONLY runs on the DSP found on the Neumann Digital speakers and KH750 subwoofer.
@@EdThorne so only works on KH120 II or just KH80 and KH750 sub?
@YOLO-pj3hh there’s a list of all the models that host the DSP to operate MA1 IN the video.
for the next review please include REW with Equaliser APO.
also mini-DSP
I had SoundID on my setup with a 2019 Intel MBP, and though it did what it should do I grew concerned with how it interacts with my OS. Latency and constantly switching on or off in order to play and track was a challenge, but more than anything I just found that it messed with my computer’s audio management (via Focusrite interface). Through this journey I started with more budget friendly monitors and cheaper headphones and at that time it was a phenomenal upgrade. When I purchased Neumann monitors and headphones I did hear an improvement but the interaction with my system became more of a hinderance than an acceptable improvement. When I upgraded to Clarett and a new M2 MBP I chose NOT to install SoundID. Does anyone know if this system is markedly improved when using Apple Silicon machines? I’d consider installing it, but until I get someone to confirm it works better than on Intel Apple machines I’ll have to pass.
arc 4 is better...
Super cool! Paul sent me here as I use Arc 4 with my Adams A8H's in my well treated mixing room and it's the icing on the cake. 😎
P.S Kali's WS-6.2 sub is phenomenal! Stereo, small, vibration free and very powerful.
Geez, your room is wild in the low end and lower midrange 😅+10 dB at 40Hz and -10db at 100Hz. That seems like way too much to correct with EQ? I would prioritize room acoustics way over a Trinnov system at that point, by a lot. Sonarworks only corrects in 3-4dB at max in my room which has basic treatment.
Yeh, it’s pretty bad. There’s very little I can do with the room (for various reasons including it not being my property), but I am looking to address the 60Hz bump with acoustic treatment. I’m diving down a translation rabbit hole atm and this is part of the problem.
I use the ST2 Pro. Too bad they stopped making it.
The Nova is the ST2 replacement with slightly better conversion (apparently) and no fan noise.
😁😇 - thankyou very informative.
good review, my exprience was the same with arc, I hated it.
You should have included Dirac as well. It is much better than Sonarworks.
I’ve never heard of it…
@@EdThorne Corrects both phase and amplitude. To get the best impulse response.
Never liked Sonarworks. Sounded unnatural and thin. Bought it, never actually used it. So then I decided to go with the MA-1, which actually works.
I had sonarworks, ARC 3, currently I have Genelc with GLM, switching from SoundID to Genelec GLM is like driving a Fiat at night without lights and then changing to a Mercedes... .ARC is a little better, but still doesn't fix the phase problems.SoundID is very, very overrated,
By the way, does anyone know that if you sell your IK-Multimedia hardware and the new owner wants to use it they have to pay for a license transfer 😂😂😂
Really?!
@@EdThorne yeah I heard many people complaining about it. A friend of mine has a guitar interface which his brother wanted to use to try it out, he couldn’t use it because the license. Basically it’s software that has hardware attached to it so the hardware only works with the license. Many people hate IK-Multimedia because of this. I also heard people say that they bought software which had sample libraries go with it, if you want to install those a couple of months later after registering they also let you pay a download fee. These guys are not very customer friendly so to speak.
You can’t correct for Nulls. It is not physically possible. Boosting a null will just result in additional Nulling. None of these systems should boost nulls. Trinnov sound like dogs**t. The FIR filters messes with the transients, and the phase coherence is much too focused on listening position, and not enough attention to the dispersion characteristics of the speaker.
You forget accourate..it can do all the things that trinnov does
What can?
@@EdThorne phase correction , group delays ...
@@EdThorneI think he meant ARC can. The the autocorrect probably misunderstood the intention.
@@EdThorne he means Acourate by AudioVero. It's a tad more complicated to get working, but it can do everything Trinnov does for less than a tenth of the price. It really is a stellar piece of software! The dev is also really helpful if you (like me) need a helping hand the first time you set everything up
ID can’t be used while tracking! That’s to me a downgrade
I’m confused why you should need ID WHILE tracking???? That makes no sense.
IK Multimedia's ARC 4 Studio was a complete joke. The registration and activation process is a damned nightmare!! After a week of failed attempts, the product was returned... and the salesman not the least bit surprised it came back!!!
Turns out he doesn't like IK Multimedia either...
hmm i did that in 5 mins or less, arc 4 sound way better than soundid, i mean soundid sound good, but in the low end didnt improve my room, but ARC 4 is almost perfect my low end, and i dont have to use any plugin...most of ik multimedia stuff i dont like it, but ARC 4 is better than i expected .