Some clarification since ppl have sent me DMs about this: Anything that is not an expense is profit. So you get two income streams in this scenario: 1. The employee salary (which counts as an expense) and 2. The profits of the company that weren’t paid out as salary (called passthrough income). They are taxed differently which is why we have that separation.
Wow 2.8% for making these videos. I respect you and what you do. This proves what I’ve learned that I have to focus more on the music. That’s number one. Thanks.
You're very welcome! I do think it would be possible to have a higher (and livable) RUclips income if I focused more on it. But I'd really have to do the educational coaching thing full-time which is not the goal currently. However, there is a nice side effect to having the RUclips channel which is new clients finding me, which then leads to more composition work. So in a way, it can act as a marketing tool I suppose, which isn't necessarily reflected in the direct income from it.
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer I think I would use it more for marketing but I’m just starting out. It seems the majority of RUclips content about film composing is educational which is great but few seem targeted for filmmakers. I actually found my first scoring gig on LinkedIn. Are you saying that filmmakers like your content?
That point you made about coming to LA with a savings is why I've never made the move. I've never really been able to get much of a savings in a way that I could finance a lot of time without needing to earn a regular paycheck. Which is a shame as I've had some great opportunities to work as an assistant for someone very well established. I've got kids now so it's likely I'm never really going to move to LA but I think I've made a pretty decent success working remotely. Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts.
The high financial barrier of entry is a real problem. And one I don’t really have any solution or tips for. We don’t acknowledge often enough that so many people out there can’t build up savings and can’t afford to struggle for 5-10 years due to other responsibilities or circumstances. I sometimes wonder how many artistic voices we’ve never heard because of this. Thankfully these days we at least have the internet to widen our reach remotely.
Great video, as usual! I would be interested in seeing a video from your perspective that covers your game composition process. Which tools do you use (e.g., Wwise, FMOD)? Layers, Adaptive Music, Looping, Interactivity, spatial audio/3D audio? Also how much you focus on cut scenes versus gameplay, etc.
I HIGHLY ADMIRE your nerve to stick it out as much as you have darling. personally working in such an industry would feel restrictive for me, mostly because I like to do my own thing with music and not be tethered to the expectations of the typical ''movie score'' genre. I grew up on EDM and Metal, me no likes restrictions 😸😸
I really like the breakdown, I do run also via a company, and as sole employee of it, it does enable some important beneficial elements over here in UK. Thanks its veyr helpful to see another perspective and set up process
Everyone’s story is completely different and LUCK plays a massive factor in making it. Dave Foster said the most important thing as well…Networking, Networking, Networking. It’s who you know. Also a good read… Making it Huge in Video Games by Chance Thomas.
I graduated with my music degree last year and about a year later I am finally making 100% of my income from music. However, everything feels tentative and like it could collapse at any moment. I'm too dependent on a few clients and I don't know what would happen if any one of them were to start going with a different composer. I learned absolutely nothing about how to actually support myself or run my own business, and I feel kind of shafted by my degree program because this is literally the most important thing. We were only prepared for Masters' degree auditions and nothing else. Where can I learn about making an S-corporation and paying myself a living wage and benefits? How do I do my taxes? My fee felt high when I got my first contract, but now that I'm thinking about expenses like health insurance, tax preparation, and so on, it feels very low. Not to mention I moved to Germany after graduating so I need not only the business knowledge but also the cultural and language knowledge to do it in German. I feel so lost.
The business classes in most music programs are unfortunately very lacking. Every country has its own tax rules and business structures so you’d be best off looking for a tax professional in your location who can look at your finances and consult you accordingly.
Gabriel, you already seemed ot have identified all of your future problems. So take action NOW, "before" the boat sinks. At the same time "cement" your relationships with your prime clients. Obviously make savings in the summer to feed you in your winters. Increase your prices and increase your income sources and streams. But it's called the music business - though almost no artists seem to want/accept that. HUGE congratulation but like any of us, you're are still basically a work for time employee, just you make a few months to a few year salary, in one project. But like everyone, you don't know where your next income is coming from. If you think like a business for a moment, what would a business do about that? There's little security in being as good as your last client/gig. You can work like crazy to gat/stay in the top 2% of the industry, i.e. to become a John Williams. But it may also take decades and certainly doing a LOT more than "just" music. i.e. networking & building relationships. But if you look at Hans Zimmer's "business" rather than just his top 2% status as a composer, what has he done? The answer is in the question! The problem is, what are you prepared to do, for your business? Just being great at music, is not enough... If you keep believing that, you will probably end up being disappointed. Take care. Take action.
Loving all your content as a serious hobbyist composer. Think you could compose a short piece using nothing but the free GarageBand DAW and its included instruments? Would be nice to see what a professional can do with that. Plus it would be good content since every Apple user can get GB for free.
I recently just lost my part time job. The company is going to shit anyways so it doesn't really matter to me much, but now I am looking for remote work with my computer skills I can utilize. Speaking of savings, if I didn't have savings I would be so screwed in this position. But I have several months to where I can live off of reasonably while I figure something out. I have some money coming in from my relaxation music, which is INSANELY helpful during this time. I also have a couple of other ideas about passive income while I search for a remote job but I think the key here for musicians is to DIVERSIFY as MUCH as possible! Making a full time income with music is very very challenging and most people will not accomplish this. However, if I can make a part time income from music while making a full time income with various different sources while working from home, I'd be completely happy with that.
Have you made a video about what to charge for composition services without pricing oneself outside of the competition? Thank you for this information.
Hi Anne-Kathrin, I’m a French composer, and I had the honor of being nominated at the international Filmapalooza festival in Los Angeles. I spent three weeks there, and the experience left a lasting impression on me. Do you have any advice for a French composer who’d like to move to Los Angeles and pursue their career in this inspiring city? ☺🌴 (I love your RUclips channel, by the way aha)
Have you heard if game music is poised to generate royalties in the future? That would be interesting. Library music is a great place to start, if the library has great placements it’ll generate passive income and help upcoming composers practice composition and production across genres. Thanks for your videos, we need more communication and community amongst composers and yours are a great help.
@@chamammie6096 Not really, I'm referring to music libraries, like Extreme Music or APM. This is a business model where composers are hired to write cues that form a catalog from which clients choose and would be placed in TV shows, Film, Advertising and other media. Editors later chop these cues up or use stems to fit whatever works in scene. As Anne mentioned, the up front fees payed for these cues are not great, but the royalty income derived from placements can be significant, even more so if placements start to snowball, then it becomes dependable passive income.
Currently, I don't see how game music would be generating a significant amount of royalties. Most of mine come from regular broadcast TV and movie theaters, followed by streaming services. But video games aren't really broadcast. It's akin to watching a DVD you bought at home - we don't get royalties for that either. There's an argument to be made for game streaming on RUclips and Twitch, or for video game concerts. But overall it's not in the interest of game companies to have all of the game streamers demonetized due to copyright claims. So unless there's some kind of revenue sharing agreement in the future, I'm not sure it's gonna happen. That being said, I actually prefer a higher upfront fee and a buyout in these cases, rather than holding on to rights that may or may not pay off one day in the future. I'd rather have the cash infusion now and be able to work with the money in the form of investments (stock, real estate, high yield interest accounts) instead of having tiny amounts trickle in over 20 years.
I'm gonna say something that is highly debatable in music forums and everybody is really entitled to his/her own opinion. In my opinion, I really hope to see upfront fees to be the norm in the sync licensing industry. They are the real deal if you have below 30 quality tracks a year. On the other hand, backend royalties are only important if you have above 250 quality tracks that all got placements to start to see serious income from them. I am not against backend royalties but they aren't real income unless you have at least 100 placements, which requires you to put on an extreme effort to produce both quantity and quality. The sad news is, unfortunately, upfront fees get shrinking every year. Many publishers stopped paying money upfront and even many of them have "gratis" deals with their clients.
I scrolled through a lot of your video descriptions and comment threads and I couldn’t find it asked and answered elsewhere: other than for samples/synthetic music production, why don’t you use a more standard notation interface for composing or for your video demos here, e.g. finale or Sibeliu? Apologies if the answer is easy to find and I just failed to find it.
Hey Anne, I have a question regarding a practical workflow in a professional setting. I write music in my head on score paper rather than in a daw ( I was trained in the old school ways). Is it feasible to export the midi from a notation software and change the sample library in a daw? When I work in a daw I find the quality of my writing goes down
I'm curious why you chose LA rather than the UK, or Canada for that matter, to set up shop? For a start these two Commonwealth countries have strong co-production treaty arrangements. They regularly are 'outsourced' locations for projects from LA too.
London would have been my second choice if LA hadn’t worked out. Most opportunities for composers are still in LA which is why hundreds of them are located here. You have significantly less access to productions in Canada or the UK unless you’re an established name. It’s true that a lot of other locations have production agreements and tax incentives. But where a production was filmed has little to no bearing on post production. The people filming in location are not the people hiring us. It’s the directors, producers, and executives who we meet here.
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer yea that’s true. But as a former film agencies pup most of the incentives do insist on using local, even for post work. But yea it’s Director, producer etc that are the decision makers.
Thank you very much for this valuable information. Just out of curiosity, and as I am on different but similar journey but in London, will you be aiming to get US citizenship?
My pleasure! And yes, I will be getting US citizenship soon. I could have applied 2 years ago already but… I’m lazy. 😅 And I have to apply for dual citizenship in Germany first.
Hello my friend, can I ask you for help? Where could I find a good soft boom? to use it in trailer music, like the dark night... please, I would love to know your advice. thank you so much.
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer Apologies for lack of clarity. So Direct expense, the work you do for a specific score/film and all costs incurred in doing so, is there a typical time frame for when you expect the payment to be reflected in the accounts?Without Aged Debtors and Creditors (which is nobody’s business ) it’s difficult to interpret the fluctuations in income. And of course asset purchases such as computers and musical instruments are being reflected in the year of being invoiced as opposed to their cost being spread across their useful lifespan. It’s so unusual for a creator to publish the detailed information you supplied it’s tempting to want to see the Profit and Loss accounts plus Cash Flow forecasts, about which you are correct in telling anyone to get stuffed.
No worries, just trying to understand better. 🙂 So in general you don’t start out with a negative balance. When you sign on for a project, you normally get paid 50% upfront so any running costs will be covered by that. Then you get the second half upon delivering the final mixes. With video games it can be more stretched out into various milestones but you agree upfront on what those are and when payments are due. We often also have multiple projects going on at the same time so ideally you’re never truly operating at a loss at any given point. The income fluctuations are mainly from natural fluctuations in royalties and upfront fees, package deals vs split budget deals, differences in personnel costs every year, plus the fact that over time with gained experience you can simply charge more in many cases. I do believe my computers are technically depreciated over time, I’d have to look into my corporate tax return from 2019. But there aren’t a lot of assets this applies to.
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer Thank you, those arrangements are a lot more “civilised” than expected of the industry in general, though it won’t all be a wonderland. Note you have other topics in the pipeline, thanks again for your candour.
I really appreciate this video, especially as a student that's about to graduate this year. I did want to ask something about what you mentioned in the conclusion, how much would you recommend having saved up before moving to LA?
That entirely depends on your personal situation. Add up monthly average living costs (rent, food, car payments, health care costs, interest on debts, etc.) and then I'd personally make sure you have at least 9-12 months worth of funds to survive. If you're not an immigrant, then you'd have the advantage of being able to work another job to supplement your income. But I'd still come here with a starting capital which might take some time to build up. I believe it took me 3 years of part-time work next to my studies in Europe to build up enough funds.
I’d be very curious to know how this is for other composers. I’d imagine library composers have a much higher royalty percentage. Or anyone who has had a worldwide theatrical blockbuster release. Would also be interesting to see how it is for concert composers and songwriters. But if it’s small to mid sized streaming, TV, and limited release theatrical productions, then I doubt royalties are equal or higher than upfront fees for most people. The good news is that even though it’s only roughly 30% of my income I could live off of that amount comfortably in LA so it’s not an abysmal amount or anything. It’s just not “early retirement” kind of money like it used to be.
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer @richardalbertmusic "hybrid" TV and library composer here. Actually I'm more a production music composer since a few years, but occasionally from time to time I've been scoring TV projects and commercials. I would say 80% of my income is PRO royalties and 20% is my direct fees. Some years it's been 10% of direct fees due to only scoring one TV movie that year for instance. Financially, my annual earnings, after accounting for retirement and social fees but before government taxes, have ranged between €140,000 and €210,000. With an exceptional year in 2021 of €290,000 but I was nearly giving 50% of my income to the government tax... Yet, it's been very comfortable although I've a family to feed. I was originally planning to work in LA for a famous music composer house starting with B and ending with Fingers, but living in LA with the whole family was around €100,000 of expenses per year (private schools for children who don't speak English, comfortable flat...) Plus I had to pay the Californian international tax on my European PRO income. So I was basically using my savings to live in LA and the "salary" of the music house was very poor in comparison. SO yeah for composers who plan to go to LA, be ready to have massive savings to live comfortably or be ready to live far from LA and do the 2 hours commute in the morning and the 2 hours commute in the evening...OR be ready to live in a 8 square meters one bed room in a ugly flat on Hollywood Bd with the crackhead people screaming in front of the windows at night. In my opinion, living in Los Angeles isn't the gold standard anymore. We have plenty of opportunities in our birth countries. With social networks, we can get tons of other opportunities and it will grow even more in the next few years when the old generation of film producers and directors will be replaced by millennials who live with social network since their birth...
Please elaborate on the payrolls thing Why is there a system you pay yourself, aren't you registered as a freelancer composer and get hired to work as that >? :P
There are different ways to do this. You can be an independent freelancer / sole proprietor which is how I started out after no longer being a full time in-house assistant. You can also form an LLC which is what I did next. This means you still function mostly the same as before but now you operate under the umbrella of your company. So productions contract your company and not you personally. This comes with no real tax advantages but with a lot of protections since your private assets are no longer on the hook. And then you can elect to be taxed as an S-Corp (or skip the LLC and do S-Corp right away). This comes with a lot of tax benefits and the whole payroll employee setup BUT it’s also much more complicated and more expensive to run. So it’s usually only worth it beyond a certain income level. Otherwise you pay more in upkeep than you’re saving in taxes. Maybe I should make a video about this.
So what comes next for investing in your business at this point in your career? I assume you have all the sample libraries and gear you could need so im curious where you go from there, especially if your income keeps going up.
Good question! Next step is buying property and converting a portion of it into a nice custom studio space, maybe even with a small recording and mix space or an assistant space in it. That’ll be a long process though since it’ll require a lot of professionals to design it and put it together. After that I’d love to get more instruments for said space. A baby grand piano is on my wish list. But yeah, the property ownership is the main thing for now. And adding more retirement and health benefits to my payroll.
It makes sense for me personally but it's also a bit costly. For Quickbooks Business, I think I'm paying around $950 per year (which includes Payroll). But they have different tiers for both businesses or individuals so I'd check which one works best for you and then run the numbers to see if it's worth it. I've never tried the other services so I don't know how they compare.
thanks for these very helpful videos! So about videogames I'm worried that writing for those will require to write much more themes/melodies compared to when writing for films. Is this real or not?
Thank you for this informative video. I have a question, do you think I can make it as a composer without moving to LA? I live in Kentucky and I really don't want to be far away from my family.
I mean, for big Hollywood blockbusters it might be more difficult considering LA is basically THE entertainment hub of the west, but every single country has people in it making films, commercials, etc. and so can absolutely make it as composer outside of LA
Brilliant! Well organized and clear. Professional. Life choices do regulate sustainability. Living on a musician’s income was doable until marriage and babies. I tell people to stay single until well established. Music as James Taylor said is blue collar and when living in a decidedly white collar location as I do a day gig is a good compromise. No regrets. Make sure all parties know one has no intention of giving up music and it works out. My treasures are my babies. My music is my joy.
100%! Glad you’re treasuring your family like that! Many a composer in LA is estranged from their families because they sacrificed family for success. They don’t tend to be the happiest people I’ve met. ❤
70 today and working on new tune. Your videos are a big help. Write. Record. Release. Enjoy. That’s it. I believe in you. There will come a time I think when you will shake LA and music will burst out of you that will be proudly played by orchestras far and wide. You will become an immortal. Not blowing up your skirt. You are an uncommon talent. Fair winds, Miss Dern.@@AnneKathrinDernComposer
You should delay the townhouse and build up a portfolio in a (solo) Roth 401k. The sooner you start, the more you end up with. Don’t wait for the interest rates to fall… at that point, everyone will buy stocks, and they’ll cost more. Invest the same amount in a low-cost index fund every month. And if you can’t both do that and buy the townhouse, then you probably can’t afford that townhouse yet.
Thanks but I prefer to get my financial advice from a professional who is familiar with my finances and my location, not a random dude on the internet called Jesus-of-cheeses.
This is all interesting but do you REALLY know what you're talking about? I feel like you probably don't know what you're talking about. I mean, I get that you provide lots of context, real-world details, but I dunno... somehow I just don't buy it
Idk....I think she knows a bit TOO much ....makes me a bit skeptical....who u working for ? Who sent u? Where were u on DEC 33 1943!? What affordable wine do you recom3nd while working on a video game score? 😂 Either way great vid! My fav vids are the back3nd industry workings stuff like this. Super informative for us up n comers 😊 Thank you❤
Some clarification since ppl have sent me DMs about this: Anything that is not an expense is profit. So you get two income streams in this scenario: 1. The employee salary (which counts as an expense) and 2. The profits of the company that weren’t paid out as salary (called passthrough income). They are taxed differently which is why we have that separation.
Hay, Ann. Long time no videos. Is everything ok with you? Are you doing well?
Great stuff, and super transparent as always Anne!
Wow 2.8% for making these videos. I respect you and what you do. This proves what I’ve learned that I have to focus more on the music. That’s number one. Thanks.
You're very welcome! I do think it would be possible to have a higher (and livable) RUclips income if I focused more on it. But I'd really have to do the educational coaching thing full-time which is not the goal currently. However, there is a nice side effect to having the RUclips channel which is new clients finding me, which then leads to more composition work. So in a way, it can act as a marketing tool I suppose, which isn't necessarily reflected in the direct income from it.
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer I think I would use it more for marketing but I’m just starting out. It seems the majority of RUclips content about film composing is educational which is great but few seem targeted for filmmakers. I actually found my first scoring gig on LinkedIn. Are you saying that filmmakers like your content?
That point you made about coming to LA with a savings is why I've never made the move. I've never really been able to get much of a savings in a way that I could finance a lot of time without needing to earn a regular paycheck. Which is a shame as I've had some great opportunities to work as an assistant for someone very well established. I've got kids now so it's likely I'm never really going to move to LA but I think I've made a pretty decent success working remotely. Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts.
The high financial barrier of entry is a real problem. And one I don’t really have any solution or tips for. We don’t acknowledge often enough that so many people out there can’t build up savings and can’t afford to struggle for 5-10 years due to other responsibilities or circumstances. I sometimes wonder how many artistic voices we’ve never heard because of this. Thankfully these days we at least have the internet to widen our reach remotely.
Looking at your income development is just so satisfying! Congrats Anne. You have come a long way!🎉
Great video, as usual! I would be interested in seeing a video from your perspective that covers your game composition process. Which tools do you use (e.g., Wwise, FMOD)? Layers, Adaptive Music, Looping, Interactivity, spatial audio/3D audio? Also how much you focus on cut scenes versus gameplay, etc.
Thanks for your openness and for sharing your experience!
My pleasure!
I HIGHLY ADMIRE your nerve to stick it out as much as you have darling. personally working in such an industry would feel restrictive for me, mostly because I like to do my own thing with music and not be tethered to the expectations of the typical ''movie score'' genre. I grew up on EDM and Metal, me no likes restrictions 😸😸
Very encouraging video, Anne-Kathrin, thanks!
Very interesting and informative! Thanks!
I really like the breakdown, I do run also via a company, and as sole employee of it, it does enable some important beneficial elements over here in UK. Thanks its veyr helpful to see another perspective and set up process
Everyone’s story is completely different and LUCK plays a massive factor in making it. Dave Foster said the most important thing as well…Networking, Networking, Networking. It’s who you know. Also a good read… Making it Huge in Video Games by Chance Thomas.
You will be happy to hear that I’ve already scripted out a video about practice, talent, hard work, and luck. Should be coming soon. 🙂
Very helpful. Thank you for sharing all this information.
Glad it was helpful!
resume@ 10:00
I graduated with my music degree last year and about a year later I am finally making 100% of my income from music. However, everything feels tentative and like it could collapse at any moment. I'm too dependent on a few clients and I don't know what would happen if any one of them were to start going with a different composer.
I learned absolutely nothing about how to actually support myself or run my own business, and I feel kind of shafted by my degree program because this is literally the most important thing. We were only prepared for Masters' degree auditions and nothing else. Where can I learn about making an S-corporation and paying myself a living wage and benefits? How do I do my taxes? My fee felt high when I got my first contract, but now that I'm thinking about expenses like health insurance, tax preparation, and so on, it feels very low. Not to mention I moved to Germany after graduating so I need not only the business knowledge but also the cultural and language knowledge to do it in German. I feel so lost.
The business classes in most music programs are unfortunately very lacking. Every country has its own tax rules and business structures so you’d be best off looking for a tax professional in your location who can look at your finances and consult you accordingly.
Gabriel, you already seemed ot have identified all of your future problems. So take action NOW, "before" the boat sinks.
At the same time "cement" your relationships with your prime clients. Obviously make savings in the summer to feed you in your winters. Increase your prices and increase your income sources and streams.
But it's called the music business - though almost no artists seem to want/accept that.
HUGE congratulation but like any of us, you're are still basically a work for time employee, just you make a few months to a few year salary, in one project. But like everyone, you don't know where your next income is coming from.
If you think like a business for a moment, what would a business do about that?
There's little security in being as good as your last client/gig.
You can work like crazy to gat/stay in the top 2% of the industry, i.e. to become a John Williams. But it may also take decades and certainly doing a LOT more than "just" music. i.e. networking & building relationships.
But if you look at Hans Zimmer's "business" rather than just his top 2% status as a composer, what has he done?
The answer is in the question!
The problem is, what are you prepared to do, for your business?
Just being great at music, is not enough... If you keep believing that, you will probably end up being disappointed.
Take care.
Take action.
Loved the choice of Fluminense FC colors for your miniature! Informative video.
Canva for the win! 😅
finally some music in your intro! :)
Very insightful as always!
Thank you so much for giving us this insight. Its very helpful
Glad it was helpful! ❤
Congrats...looks like your career is really taking off!
You deserve every penny and more. Good luck in 2024..................🥳
Great video for folks to be aware of.
all the best to you, thanks for the tips.
frohes neues Jahr und weiterhin viel Erfolg!
Subscribers going up and UP~~~! Amazing change will happen in the income analysis figure~~:)
Love your channel !
Loving all your content as a serious hobbyist composer. Think you could compose a short piece using nothing but the free GarageBand DAW and its included instruments? Would be nice to see what a professional can do with that. Plus it would be good content since every Apple user can get GB for free.
Thank you and I appreciate the insight 🙏
Thank you for the video!
Great guidance and generosity. Thank you
I recently just lost my part time job. The company is going to shit anyways so it doesn't really matter to me much, but now I am looking for remote work with my computer skills I can utilize. Speaking of savings, if I didn't have savings I would be so screwed in this position. But I have several months to where I can live off of reasonably while I figure something out. I have some money coming in from my relaxation music, which is INSANELY helpful during this time. I also have a couple of other ideas about passive income while I search for a remote job but I think the key here for musicians is to DIVERSIFY as MUCH as possible! Making a full time income with music is very very challenging and most people will not accomplish this. However, if I can make a part time income from music while making a full time income with various different sources while working from home, I'd be completely happy with that.
Have you made a video about what to charge for composition services without pricing oneself outside of the competition?
Thank you for this information.
A Happy New Year to you Anne-Kathryn Dern! 🥳
That was very informative and helpful. Thank you.
Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for your honesty! ~ Yours sincerely, IRS.
Amazing channel! Thank you so much.
Glad you enjoy it!
Thanks for sharing, Anne! Very helpful and inspiring!
Hi Anne-Kathrin,
I’m a French composer, and I had the honor of being nominated at the international Filmapalooza festival in Los Angeles. I spent three weeks there, and the experience left a lasting impression on me. Do you have any advice for a French composer who’d like to move to Los Angeles and pursue their career in this inspiring city? ☺🌴 (I love your RUclips channel, by the way aha)
Thank you so much!
Have you heard if game music is poised to generate royalties in the future? That would be interesting.
Library music is a great place to start, if the library has great placements it’ll generate passive income and help upcoming composers practice composition and production across genres.
Thanks for your videos, we need more communication and community amongst composers and yours are a great help.
You guys are referring to like sample libraries correct?
@@chamammie6096 Not really, I'm referring to music libraries, like Extreme Music or APM. This is a business model where composers are hired to write cues that form a catalog from which clients choose and would be placed in TV shows, Film, Advertising and other media. Editors later chop these cues up or use stems to fit whatever works in scene. As Anne mentioned, the up front fees payed for these cues are not great, but the royalty income derived from placements can be significant, even more so if placements start to snowball, then it becomes dependable passive income.
Thanks sounded different the way it was being discussed.
Currently, I don't see how game music would be generating a significant amount of royalties. Most of mine come from regular broadcast TV and movie theaters, followed by streaming services. But video games aren't really broadcast. It's akin to watching a DVD you bought at home - we don't get royalties for that either. There's an argument to be made for game streaming on RUclips and Twitch, or for video game concerts. But overall it's not in the interest of game companies to have all of the game streamers demonetized due to copyright claims. So unless there's some kind of revenue sharing agreement in the future, I'm not sure it's gonna happen. That being said, I actually prefer a higher upfront fee and a buyout in these cases, rather than holding on to rights that may or may not pay off one day in the future. I'd rather have the cash infusion now and be able to work with the money in the form of investments (stock, real estate, high yield interest accounts) instead of having tiny amounts trickle in over 20 years.
I'm gonna say something that is highly debatable in music forums and everybody is really entitled to his/her own opinion. In my opinion, I really hope to see upfront fees to be the norm in the sync licensing industry. They are the real deal if you have below 30 quality tracks a year. On the other hand, backend royalties are only important if you have above 250 quality tracks that all got placements to start to see serious income from them. I am not against backend royalties but they aren't real income unless you have at least 100 placements, which requires you to put on an extreme effort to produce both quantity and quality. The sad news is, unfortunately, upfront fees get shrinking every year. Many publishers stopped paying money upfront and even many of them have "gratis" deals with their clients.
Very Interesting, thanks !
I scrolled through a lot of your video descriptions and comment threads and I couldn’t find it asked and answered elsewhere: other than for samples/synthetic music production, why don’t you use a more standard notation interface for composing or for your video demos here, e.g. finale or Sibeliu?
Apologies if the answer is easy to find and I just failed to find it.
No worries, I don't think I have a dedicated video about this. The quick answer is: Because I would be unemployed. :-)
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer fair enough.
Hey Anne, I have a question regarding a practical workflow in a professional setting. I write music in my head on score paper rather than in a daw ( I was trained in the old school ways).
Is it feasible to export the midi from a notation software and change the sample library in a daw?
When I work in a daw I find the quality of my writing goes down
I'm curious why you chose LA rather than the UK, or Canada for that matter, to set up shop? For a start these two Commonwealth countries have strong co-production treaty arrangements. They regularly are 'outsourced' locations for projects from LA too.
London would have been my second choice if LA hadn’t worked out. Most opportunities for composers are still in LA which is why hundreds of them are located here. You have significantly less access to productions in Canada or the UK unless you’re an established name. It’s true that a lot of other locations have production agreements and tax incentives. But where a production was filmed has little to no bearing on post production. The people filming in location are not the people hiring us. It’s the directors, producers, and executives who we meet here.
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer yea that’s true. But as a former film agencies pup most of the incentives do insist on using local, even for post work. But yea it’s Director, producer etc that are the decision makers.
How was the food in the WB cafeteria?
Thanks a lot !
Thank you for tips
Do you make only orchestral musical scores for films? Or do you also do like say something electronic or hybrid if it's asked for?
Thank you very much for this valuable information. Just out of curiosity, and as I am on different but similar journey but in London, will you be aiming to get US citizenship?
My pleasure! And yes, I will be getting US citizenship soon. I could have applied 2 years ago already but… I’m lazy. 😅 And I have to apply for dual citizenship in Germany first.
Hello my friend, can I ask you for help? Where could I find a good soft boom? to use it in trailer music, like the dark night... please, I would love to know your advice. thank you so much.
When do you expect the expense to reflect as income? It looks like a significant time lag between work done and payment received .
What do you mean by expense reflecting as income? Can you elaborate? Technically expenses never turn into income. Do you mean return on investment?
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer Apologies for lack of clarity. So Direct expense, the work you do for a specific score/film and all costs incurred in doing so, is there a typical time frame for when you expect the payment to be reflected in the accounts?Without Aged Debtors and Creditors (which is nobody’s business ) it’s difficult to interpret the fluctuations in income. And of course asset purchases such as computers and musical instruments are being reflected in the year of being invoiced as opposed to their cost being spread across their useful lifespan. It’s so unusual for a creator to publish the detailed information you supplied it’s tempting to want to see the Profit and Loss accounts plus Cash Flow forecasts, about which you are correct in telling anyone to get stuffed.
No worries, just trying to understand better. 🙂 So in general you don’t start out with a negative balance. When you sign on for a project, you normally get paid 50% upfront so any running costs will be covered by that. Then you get the second half upon delivering the final mixes. With video games it can be more stretched out into various milestones but you agree upfront on what those are and when payments are due. We often also have multiple projects going on at the same time so ideally you’re never truly operating at a loss at any given point. The income fluctuations are mainly from natural fluctuations in royalties and upfront fees, package deals vs split budget deals, differences in personnel costs every year, plus the fact that over time with gained experience you can simply charge more in many cases. I do believe my computers are technically depreciated over time, I’d have to look into my corporate tax return from 2019. But there aren’t a lot of assets this applies to.
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer Thank you, those arrangements are a lot more “civilised” than expected of the industry in general, though it won’t all be a wonderland. Note you have other topics in the pipeline, thanks again for your candour.
I really appreciate this video, especially as a student that's about to graduate this year. I did want to ask something about what you mentioned in the conclusion, how much would you recommend having saved up before moving to LA?
That entirely depends on your personal situation. Add up monthly average living costs (rent, food, car payments, health care costs, interest on debts, etc.) and then I'd personally make sure you have at least 9-12 months worth of funds to survive. If you're not an immigrant, then you'd have the advantage of being able to work another job to supplement your income. But I'd still come here with a starting capital which might take some time to build up. I believe it took me 3 years of part-time work next to my studies in Europe to build up enough funds.
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer Thank you so much, that was extremely helpful!
Oh. Very interesting. I was expecting a higher percentage of the royalties. But this maybe changed over the last few years.
I’d be very curious to know how this is for other composers. I’d imagine library composers have a much higher royalty percentage. Or anyone who has had a worldwide theatrical blockbuster release. Would also be interesting to see how it is for concert composers and songwriters. But if it’s small to mid sized streaming, TV, and limited release theatrical productions, then I doubt royalties are equal or higher than upfront fees for most people. The good news is that even though it’s only roughly 30% of my income I could live off of that amount comfortably in LA so it’s not an abysmal amount or anything. It’s just not “early retirement” kind of money like it used to be.
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer @richardalbertmusic "hybrid" TV and library composer here. Actually I'm more a production music composer since a few years, but occasionally from time to time I've been scoring TV projects and commercials. I would say 80% of my income is PRO royalties and 20% is my direct fees. Some years it's been 10% of direct fees due to only scoring one TV movie that year for instance.
Financially, my annual earnings, after accounting for retirement and social fees but before government taxes, have ranged between €140,000 and €210,000. With an exceptional year in 2021 of €290,000 but I was nearly giving 50% of my income to the government tax...
Yet, it's been very comfortable although I've a family to feed. I was originally planning to work in LA for a famous music composer house starting with B and ending with Fingers, but living in LA with the whole family was around €100,000 of expenses per year (private schools for children who don't speak English, comfortable flat...)
Plus I had to pay the Californian international tax on my European PRO income. So I was basically using my savings to live in LA and the "salary" of the music house was very poor in comparison.
SO yeah for composers who plan to go to LA, be ready to have massive savings to live comfortably or be ready to live far from LA and do the 2 hours commute in the morning and the 2 hours commute in the evening...OR be ready to live in a 8 square meters one bed room in a ugly flat on Hollywood Bd with the crackhead people screaming in front of the windows at night.
In my opinion, living in Los Angeles isn't the gold standard anymore. We have plenty of opportunities in our birth countries. With social networks, we can get tons of other opportunities and it will grow even more in the next few years when the old generation of film producers and directors will be replaced by millennials who live with social network since their birth...
Please elaborate on the payrolls thing
Why is there a system you pay yourself, aren't you registered as a freelancer composer and get hired to work as that >? :P
There are different ways to do this. You can be an independent freelancer / sole proprietor which is how I started out after no longer being a full time in-house assistant. You can also form an LLC which is what I did next. This means you still function mostly the same as before but now you operate under the umbrella of your company. So productions contract your company and not you personally. This comes with no real tax advantages but with a lot of protections since your private assets are no longer on the hook. And then you can elect to be taxed as an S-Corp (or skip the LLC and do S-Corp right away). This comes with a lot of tax benefits and the whole payroll employee setup BUT it’s also much more complicated and more expensive to run. So it’s usually only worth it beyond a certain income level. Otherwise you pay more in upkeep than you’re saving in taxes. Maybe I should make a video about this.
I'd be interested in this as well@@AnneKathrinDernComposer
So what comes next for investing in your business at this point in your career? I assume you have all the sample libraries and gear you could need so im curious where you go from there, especially if your income keeps going up.
Good question! Next step is buying property and converting a portion of it into a nice custom studio space, maybe even with a small recording and mix space or an assistant space in it. That’ll be a long process though since it’ll require a lot of professionals to design it and put it together. After that I’d love to get more instruments for said space. A baby grand piano is on my wish list. But yeah, the property ownership is the main thing for now. And adding more retirement and health benefits to my payroll.
Hi Ann, thank you for the very informative video. I'm curious if you would recommend the income & expense tracking software that you're using? thanks!
It makes sense for me personally but it's also a bit costly. For Quickbooks Business, I think I'm paying around $950 per year (which includes Payroll). But they have different tiers for both businesses or individuals so I'd check which one works best for you and then run the numbers to see if it's worth it. I've never tried the other services so I don't know how they compare.
I mix with teaching and gigs. I'm about £4000 on average over the year.
Passive income help a bit but not much.
thanks for these very helpful videos! So about videogames I'm worried that writing for those will require to write much more themes/melodies compared to when writing for films. Is this real or not?
Thank you for this informative video. I have a question, do you think I can make it as a composer without moving to LA? I live in Kentucky and I really don't want to be far away from my family.
I mean, for big Hollywood blockbusters it might be more difficult considering LA is basically THE entertainment hub of the west, but every single country has people in it making films, commercials, etc. and so can absolutely make it as composer outside of LA
You know you have high bank fees, when you are writing bank fees twice in the expenses slide (Other)! I feel you!
My bad. 😅 I noticed it when I was editing and was too lazy to go back into Canva. 😂
What about gross or net points from the movies you work on, is that a thing for composers?
It’s not usually a thing but I’m sure it’s been done on select special occasions.
Wow! I don’t even have a CD player anymore 😂 should I reconsider? 🤯
The way I was waiting for someone to make a CD joke. 😂
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer your welcome 😂
Don"t give up!
Imagine if she started talking about crypto as apart of her income stream 🙄🙄 thanks for showing restraint Anne 😊
Brilliant! Well organized and clear. Professional.
Life choices do regulate sustainability. Living on a musician’s income was doable until marriage and babies. I tell people to stay single until well established. Music as James Taylor said is blue collar and when living in a decidedly white collar location as I do a day gig is a good compromise. No regrets. Make sure all parties know one has no intention of giving up music and it works out. My treasures are my babies. My music is my joy.
100%! Glad you’re treasuring your family like that! Many a composer in LA is estranged from their families because they sacrificed family for success. They don’t tend to be the happiest people I’ve met. ❤
70 today and working on new tune. Your videos are a big help. Write. Record. Release. Enjoy. That’s it. I believe in you. There will come a time I think when you will shake LA and music will burst out of you that will be proudly played by orchestras far and wide. You will become an immortal. Not blowing up your skirt. You are an uncommon talent. Fair winds, Miss Dern.@@AnneKathrinDernComposer
It is fairly easy to work out your exact numbers based on the number of views your videos get. You deserve it! Drinks on you!
Nobody knows how many views my videos get though. And the income percentage is shared with income from Buy Me A Coffee and Superthanks. 🙂
How useful
i wish i was a film composer but i don't even know where to start ah
My main outlay... Lego. Can I expense that?
A complaint: I'm here for the tips, but I get constantly distracted by the beauty of your voice.
Anne, I would've thought 56% of your expenses would go to cheese and wine, but clearly I'm way off and I was probably projecting, huh? 🕺
Ah you see now we’re talking personal expenses. I can neither confirm nor deny that a significant amount is spent on cheese and wine. 😂
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer Ha! Blessed are the cheesemakers. 🤸🏼♂️
Let me be *this* guy. It might not be a too bad idea to have a tiny amount in crypto at this point. Alright, that's it. Back to being sufferable.
You should delay the townhouse and build up a portfolio in a (solo) Roth 401k. The sooner you start, the more you end up with. Don’t wait for the interest rates to fall… at that point, everyone will buy stocks, and they’ll cost more. Invest the same amount in a low-cost index fund every month. And if you can’t both do that and buy the townhouse, then you probably can’t afford that townhouse yet.
Thanks but I prefer to get my financial advice from a professional who is familiar with my finances and my location, not a random dude on the internet called Jesus-of-cheeses.
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer 🧀🙏🏻😂 lol come on that was harsh
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer😂
Never seen Warner Bros so empty.
It was a Sunday session and I think the writers strike had already started. So only music people and tourists there. 😄
This is all interesting but do you REALLY know what you're talking about? I feel like you probably don't know what you're talking about. I mean, I get that you provide lots of context, real-world details, but I dunno... somehow I just don't buy it
lol 😂
Dude is having a bad day
Austiiiin!!! 😂 Give us your game composer percentagessss!!! 😜
Idk....I think she knows a bit TOO much ....makes me a bit skeptical....who u working for ? Who sent u? Where were u on DEC 33 1943!? What affordable wine do you recom3nd while working on a video game score?
😂
Either way great vid! My fav vids are the back3nd industry workings stuff like this. Super informative for us up n comers 😊
Thank you❤
😂😂😂