This is pretty bad news…in 2022 the workers tried to unionize at Moog in NC doesn’t seem like they were successful and most likely will quit or get laid off due to this 😢
“ they couldn’t unionized because they owned, they would lose their equity if they join a union” this sounds like one of those corporate brainwashing schemes that companies use to try to keep unions out, i’ve worked for companies that have unionized, and during the whole process, they would tell us stuff like this and a lot of workers would be victims and believe it, but they don’t realize that once you unionize. everything that you have is up for negotiation, so you very well could keep certain perks that you have, otherwise, you vote the contract down, and they go back to the negotiating table.
My favourite Moog was a Radio Shack licence - had branding by both Moog and Radio Shack! Excellent synth although it fell apart, poor choice in the foam sealant. Donated it to someone who was willing to do the tricky repair. MG-1 I think it was.
Don’t count on that. The new parent company is larger than Behringer, and there may be some litigious letters being sent which may actually give Behringer something to think about.
@@unduloid Hm, Spice and the Subharmonicon? Crave and the Mother 32, Edge and the DFAM? Those looked like Behringer was clearly targeting admired synths currently in the market. You don’t have to be identical, you just have to show that there is an effort to repeatedly copy others. There are other examples of Behringer copying current products of various companies. Not a hard thing to prove I think. Roland successfully cowed Behringer into a settlement, and it’s arguable that Moog has more of a case. I could see this going badly for Behringer, especially in legal discovery, where they’d have to turn over a lot of information. Behringer will want to avoid that. inMusic is huge, has the resources to fight, and there’s already suggestions from people in the industry that inMusic is eyeing recouping costs. They are not the type of company to just sit back and let copies of their investment sell at their expense. They may try to make Moog more competitive, but I don’t doubt that they will go after Behringer if they feel their investment is threatened.
When asked how Moog felt about Behringer cloning several of Moog's machines as well as those of other brands, an executive from Moog said that he thought it was great the Behringer was making synthesizers available to up and coming musicians who could not afford or justify more expensive hardware. That would enable more users to become professionals who could upgrade to more expensive machines like Moog's. I have to agree with that because I am an example of that. For decades I dreamed of owning a MiniMoog but even a used MM was too expensive for me as a beginner. The Poly D by Behringer opened that door for me. I acquired the Poly D and a couple other Behringer clones a few years ago. After a year or so of dabbling around with budget clones, I felt the need and the justification to move on to more expensive, sophisticated and capable synthesizers. I'm afraid however, that the Moog executive's attitude will change under the direction of a corporate conglomerate. To the corporate bean counters, Behringer may look like a threat to corporate profits and they may try to shut down Behringer's cloning of Moog products. I hope they don't but I won't be surprised if they do.
@@vaiman7777 Well, if anything has been infringed, that's Moogs, or should I say Inmusics job to defend their I.P. I personally think Behringer are smart enough to copy without infringing on any patents.
Yeah. I respect their product line and co-op structure, but I wasn't going to be in the market for a genuine Moog any time soon. I continue to believe that is true for most Behringer customers, especially those in the "developing world."
Asheville resident here, MOOG was employee owned but not all the employees including my homies had any stake and in fact were not being paid living wage. Hence the failed unionization attempt which did not recieve enough votes to pass. The company didn't have the money to unionize, and in fact could barely pay payroll last month even staying corporate. Mavis didn't help, moogerfooger digital must not have helped hence the massive sale. Moog has no MPE or polyphonic aftertouch either which I thought for sure they would try as a last ditch effort. I will be keeping my Moogs for surrrrreeee now
@@NikoNoxious Is there something wrong with you? 49% is what was given out as shares, depending on how many people took the shares would be the amount of dilution of shares. If people chose not to take shares, that's on them, the shares were there as an offering. Livable wage, so why not cut back on more jobs and allow people to be paid more? Do you even understand how much it costs to build any Moog synth in house? Why do you think there is no car industry anymore? Human labor is just not as competitive as labor force offshore.
Moog employees/board wanted to cash out. They did. End of story. Behringer, Korg, Arturia can still build and sell some bits of analogue circuitry because they sell a lot of it - they place enough orders to keep the components production going, Moog doesn't. Even so, it's not really economical when you can do everything with DSP inside a 10 dollar ARM chip, ask Roland. And it's not really efficient when you can run 20 virtual analogue synths on your run-down laptop or ipad, ask Native Instruments.
@@entropybentwhistle it's Treal!!! Agree totally!!! We love Roger Linn!! Thanks to the creators of machines... They make a way for us to express... Namaste
Behringer and a plethora of soft-synth companies, have all but made the high prices of Moog a waste of some hard earned money for nostalgia. I did a shootout with my Minimoog and Cherry Audio's emulation and I seriously couldn't justify buying a MiniMoog at that point.
I have a Moog sub 37, great low bass sounds is one thing. And a great editor for the computer. Also very fun is the disco light show with the leds that I can put on. I will keep it, maybe people will pay a lot of money later, then for me saying : sorry not for sale.
same here, while it will potentially be nice to see the resale value of my sub37 climb, it's not like i'd sell it. all i'd end up doing with that money is buy another sub37 :D
Oh no... I didn't know that this inmusic company owned these brands, but I've been avoiding most of these brands due to issues with their products. This was informative and unfortunate. :(
Glad I locked in my Sub 25 last year. It really is 'all that.' Not reproducible. The combo of the dual + sub sweepable oscillators + multi-drive is the definition of FAT, especially in the low end.
@@scheetmcborsten7977 Exactly. I’ve owned several Minimoog’s over the past 40 years & no one can tell my that Behringer didn’t hit the nail on the head with their $500 Poly D. I’m not even trying to hear the “Moog is quality” argument either. I’ve not a single person who’s Minimoog didn’t drift out of tune all of the time. There’s absolutely no reason to pay $5000+ for ANY Minimoog when there are a ton of mono synths that can do the job just as well or better… I said what I said…😏
Norlin 2.0. You would think that Moog Music would have learned something from its history, such as the fact that every time they've been bought out, the results have been pretty awful. Musonics brought in loads of janky business and accounting issues. Norlin's takeover marked an attempt to make "cheap" Moogs...remember the Realistic MG-1? Then when Norlin got eaten by the Gibson juggernaut, Moog tried to step their game up with instruments like the Source and the precursor to the Moog One, the Memorymoog. Never mind the fact that Moog utterly bollixed the MIDI implementation for it, or the aging problem that gradually killed aspects of the microprocessor...like the oscillator self-tune function. And then there was the trademark theft by some asshat out of Cincinnati, Don Martin, who set up a con to become the CEO of the barely-existant "Moog CE". This barely-legit thing is why Dr. Bob had to use "Big Briar" at first... because that clown STOLE the trademarks! Thankfully, legal heads prevailed there. Not that Moog gets off scot-free here... Moog had people begging them for years to reissue the individual modules for use in other synthesizers. Makes sense, right? But no...they couldn't be bothered, and the vast majority of potential customers moved on to Dotcom and Moon Modular for their 5U format fix. Or Eurorack...where you can buy all the Moog-lineage modules (or some outright copies, and not only Uli's) until you get so broke that you have to find another refrigerator box to put the studio in, right next to the one you're already living in. And Moog Music, who could've gotten some phat bank off of that...just couldn't be bothered. So they wound up not merely getting their lunch eaten, they laid out an artful brunch buffet and stepped back as the consumers walked on by. Why spend $39 on brunch (mimosas not included) when you can go to Waffle House for pocket change AND possibly get to see flying chairs whilst enjoying your pecan waffle? Same model applies here, too. Can you afford a real Moog 55? Probably not. But can you afford Behringer's 55 clone(ish)? Given that you could conceivably buy a couple dozen of Uli's knockoffs for the price of the Big Dawg, well... It's not merely that, though. The One was a great follow-up to the Memorymoog. Better than expected, even! Buuuuut...well, I know that I certainly don't have around $8 or 9k to drop on one, and I also know plenty of other musicians who don't, either. A little judicious market research might've indicated this, but Moog opted to use the Moog marque as a primary selling point. Very bad, very dumb. I should note that I've got a few Moog devices...Theremini, Subharmonicon...but while they've done great stuff in the sub-$1k range, everything outside of that relies far too much on that Moog nameplate. Especially given that QC issues tend to pop up more on the more expensive Moog gear. Besides, has anyone around here ever gotten cozy with a modular Moog? I have...and there's a lot there that's wrong. I could spend several paragraphs on the S-trig problems alone. Or the haphazard component sourcing of any of Moog's Trumansburg instruments, which were primarily modular systems until Bill Hemseth cooked up the Minimoog...which also used the same flaky S-trig arrangement for external synth connections. And EVERYONE SEEMS TO FORGET ABOUT THESE ISSUES because Moog am GOAT according to a lot of people who've never seen or worked with one in the flesh. TBH, the end of the company was when Dr. Robert Moog shuffled off of this mortal coil, as many were dreading. It just took considerably longer to happen, but it should be pretty apparent now. Damn shame...
This was a good run down. Thanks. I played with the Radio Shack model when it came out and thought it sounded quite good. I scratched my head when The Source came out. Didn't know it was made under different ownership. Always seemed like the Memorymoog and any improved descendants of it should have been their staple product. High enough volume on a product like that could have funded a more rational product line to stay relevant for generations to come. This obviously did not happen though.
It isn't Moog history. There was no connection to the NY Moog company. All of the "reissues" were clones with a Moog badge. I own a shitload of vintage and modern Moogs, a Covid-Era 10, and have played a vintage modular as well (briefly).
Companies that are employee owned are great. I used to work for one. They actually help people get a leg up in the world in some ways. Does depend on the company yes but at the same time selling it off like that is shady.
Uffffffffg.... If Roger Linn said that... It's not joke.... Good video... I always dreamed about having a Moog... I don't know if that will be possible in this life... Or in what conditions...
Can't wait for the first Moog with internal drum styles. I really do hope they include ''polka''. Also I heard InMusic & Moog are working on an electronic drumkit for children. They're branding it as ''My First Moog'' and is made to compete with Guitar/Drum Hero.
I'm thinking it will be like Fender or Gibson in big corporate hands. They will keep making the high end "Made in America" synths like the MIA Fenders and Gibsons but will also have lower priced versions made in Asia and or Mexico. Rumor has it Moog couldn't make payroll anymore so it was either this or bankruptcy.
all i want is a cheaper model D reissue, who in their right mind pays 6k for a brand new reissue? Whatever happens I hope they'll make a proper nice model D that is affordable. For now it's just the Behringer Poly D
Since the USA is on its donwfall since 2016, I think it's the best for the international music industrie to rescue precious musical brands out of a country marching straight into either anarchy or faschism./s
right? And perhaps if they had re-released a MiniMoog Voyager as well at bellow 2k bucks (because come on.. they are freaking MONO Synths for crying out loud), they would not be in such trouble. But they rather wanna maintain their elitist false image for some reason.....
. Inmusic Brands announced on March 8, 2023 that it had acquired Moog Music for $500 million. The acquisition will allow Inmusic to expand its portfolio of music brands and to tap into Moog Music's expertise in analog synthesizers.
It's a little sad because of the huge legacy - and also we need competition in that space too but at the same time...they had many many years to bring some more affordable synths to market and they started doing that just recently when Behringer already pinned them.
Moog brought more affordable synths to market beginning with the Model D, then the Micro, then others like the Prodigy and MG-1. Even the Satellite. Then the Foogers, Phatty, and even the SLIM Phatties, then the SubVariants, Werkstatt, et al.
Moog for the money? Distribution? Just not sure what Moog is fucking doing. I remember visiting the assembly shop in NC, I purchased a grandmother soon after, oh well, west coast synth!
@@The_Bit_Player Moog didn't close their Ashville location and they already sourced most of their electronic components from China and Taiwan. It's also a relatively small company (something like 50 employees) with the usual problems of greedy executives raking in way more cash than they deserve, which was one of the reasons the company couldn't stay afloat without a buyout. If you want to solve the outsourcing problem, there are much bigger fish to fry than a small operation like Moog. I doubt you think twice about buying a smartphone or computers that aren't made in the US. But again, the real big underlying issue is electronic components; have to bring that industry back for the downstream manufacturers to prosper. Will Moog eventually close up shop and be entirely made in China?? Maybe? Probably? Can't say at this point. The company probably isn't worth anything without the premium branding, so there's a good chance they will continue to operate out of the US so they can keep selling overpriced status symbols to talentless rich boys.
Thereno such thing as a moog snob. Just people with integrity. There are however fools who will sell out to China for cheap substitute and because that's not enough to please them, they lash out at others.
Also getting emails from the NI merger stuff today... Izotope, Plugin Alliance, and Brainworx all coming under the Native Instruments hood. I've noticed their products mixing in, over the last 6 months. But now they are planning to merge under NI, all together.
@@dodgingrain3695 Actually, if you go back and read their press releases, they were going to keep them separated. Today, they announced that is no longer the case and everything would be entirely under NI. That part, is the new news.
@@VentureNW I learned a long time ago that you can trust statements made in a corporate buyout and ultimately the parent company almost always tries to eliminate the company they bought. So I assumed the NI thing was a given in the original announcement months ago,
@@dodgingrain3695 💯 So Sequential and Moog are destined for an unpleasant assimilation, despite the obligatory smiley-handshake _bright and glorious future_ BS?
Moog imho has been pretty stagnant as a synth innovator for a long time and the days of them being hand built have been gone for a quite a while. Just like everything else its all premanufactured in china/indonesia/vietnam/wherever and then sent to the US to be "manufactured" again and put in a box so they can charge big money for it. I get it. Behringer ate their lunch several times. Not saying the Behringer Model D was superior in anyway. But the fact is its damn decent and its affordable. Moog rode the coattails of their past for a long time. But there are only just so many people with money to burn for reissues of a famous old synths. They lost to technology that can remake exactly the same sounds for a fraction of the price. Nobody cares if the sounds they hear came from an original or not. They are for showing off to your friends that you have some cool thing in your studio. Probably rarely ever played because nobody wants to break their investment.
Most things in life do not last long after the passing of the founder. Even monetary-incentivized companies have little chance of continuing the same vision and paradigm of the one who started it all. In this case: Dr. Robert Arthur Moog (/moʊɡ/ MOHG; May 23, 1934 - August 21, 2005) left a mark on history that is immortal. Internationally, all people will remember and also advance his contributions. Misguided companies will not change that, but they might ruin one good thing for someone else to make right.
haha damn am i the only one who wouldn’t mind a sampler monosynth from moog x akai. elektron already has a couple. i feel like elektron and teenage engineering are the real ones to beat.
Get all the Grandmas and Matriarchs now, before they start releasing VSTs in a box. Maybe even some Subsequents, don't know. The prices of those will skyrocket in the future. The best analog to this is Mesa Boogie being bought by Gibson. Their new products have been, shall we say, subpar and not living up to Mesa's legacy.
Every time I've owned a Moog it felt so premium. I really liked that Moog was a home based company that made and tested everything in-house. You could even see hand written numbers on the label. While I do enjoy brands like Behringer, because it creates affordable hardware options for artists, Moog is just one of the O.G. brands and I'd be sad to see it farmed out to Bangladesh or something
I am surprised it took this long for someone to scoop them up. Overhead positions will centralize quickly and get the broom. All the SMD kit go elsewhere as they are able to get those lines in place - in Mexico if they are smart or Asia if not. The design/engineering and top end through hole kit and positions will stay in what may be a downsized same or nearby location. We are unlikely to see anything to excite many synth users - mostly Mavis type garbage or uninspired variations of current offerings. The now in charge bean counters would never allow it, but they could start with Matriarch and change a few things (instead of a whole new design) for something equally great. Swap the 4 oscillators for a pair of TZFM + folder, lots of cross mod, and at least 3 simultaneous wave outs w/level each + sub. You could even just license a complex oscillator from Instruo or the like and save even more time. Then make the 2 filters fully independent, replace the delay with 2 loopable AR/AHR EGs, and put CV in panning on the VCAs. Something like that could happen fast and would be even more unique (and amazing) than the Matriarch, but it will now never happen.
yeah, they don't have SMT lines in North Carolina.....sorry to tell you. They get their PCB's assembled by a CM, and guess where that CM is located? They do final assembly in NC, and that's probably not moving any time soon, but it's not like this changes much. Been to their facility a few times, as I am a supplier to them.
The music tech industry is transforming into a pretty small oligopoly and it's whack. Super whack. I already know where the business model is going for the next 10 years. Whack.
It had not occurred to me that inMusic had bought all the companies they now seemed to be the service portal for. Will obviously have to start slimming their product lines as they are going to have many excellent products but which are essentially competing with themselves. Price rise in the cards as competition disappears.
As we all know anything with Numark/InMusic is a bad deal. It had to be that old Jack O'Donnell bastard again. The same man that screwed Roger Linn over. He ruined the Akai and Alesis brand. Now they are just mass produced cheaply made products. Infact they are more of the same as my My MPC5000 that I recently thrown away to the dumpster shared all the same parts as the Alesis Fusion HD keyboard. I had all sorts of problems with and just had to get rid of it. High failure rates of power supplies are a known issue on the 5000 given its the same faulty power supply in the Alesis Fusion go figure!
I just bought a Subharmonicon and Minitaur do go with my dfam, Grandmother and pedals but with the price of new mini’s I’ll never afford them once the brand is truly ruined. I don’t like going into debt for gear but this move has me strongly considering it.
Maybe MOOG should make dedicated control surfaces for their soft synths. The Model D app sounds real enough to me. What It needs is real knobs and switches. I map my Sub 25 to it.
Who knows what impact it will have? Legendary hardware makers SSL once proudly made their gear in Oxford England; these days they seem to engineer in England and manufacture in China. My bus plus seems to be great build quality. Maybe Moog will be able to reduce prices and compete with the budget conscious Behringer juggernaut
It's quite obvious what will happen in the boardrooms; 'OK great, we have 200,000,000 of these duff converters and chips from the mixer lines, is there a way we can 'save the planet' and use all that garbage stock ? Yes, we were hoping you were going to ask 🤣
Well this is what happens when the employees of an employee owned company goes on strike. They end up selling out. That’s unfortunate because except for the Moog one, they have a good lineup. Now inMusic is probably the worst conglomerate, right up there with Behringer.
I'd say inMusic is worse then berringer. Can't name a single in music product that's great or innovative, atleast behringer has put our a few new synths that aren't terrible.
Yeah, I didn't take it as good news. Makes me feel lucky about my choice for a monosynth in my recent purchase, a Pro 3 SE. Moog Matriarch was on my list of synths I was comparing. Even though my Pro 3 SE arrived with issues, I had superb support, and Sequential sent me a new main board that I easily swapped out myself. When we start seeing stuff manufactured in China, it often comes with manufacturing shortcuts to safe cost, some of which gets in the way of easily servicing something ourselves. I love my MODX, but getting inside it I imagine would be a nightmare. I had to repair my MOTIF and it was one of the hardest things to take apart just to replace one broken key. Seriously, I could of rebuilt and engine in the same amount of time! And the MOTIF was made better in Japan. I think Yamaha's flagship synths, are still made in Japan. The MODX+, however I can't find where they are made, which usually means China. Sequential being owned by Novation doesn't bother me, Novation itself makes good products with great service.
Probably for a time, then it will eventually settle down. Inflation seems to be driving the prices, though that doesn't make sense. If inflation means you have to raise prices, it also means that no one else needs to pay it.
@@Rhythmicons demand is what creates inflation and as long as we continue to consume and purchase prices continue to go up that is just economics. My question is more related to which i should have phrased better, is quality going to go out the window and are products going to get cheaper from mass production and probably cheaper components resulting in more affordable prices where everyone can buy and in the long run more money is made for the company selling.
Inflation is almost irrelevant when Moog has always fetched a premium just because of the badge. Demand doesn't drive the rapacious sellers like ARMENS who want 10k for a run of the mill Model D with no provenance, especially when there are over 10k vintage model Ds in the wild. When the Covid checks were coming out, folks were willing to pay more than 500 bucks for a simple MF101 filter, and people regularly justify ridiculous prices because they aren't patient enough to wait for prices to come down. I think entities like reverb, who have their price charts are artificially inflating the prices as well. Compare a vintage price list for Model Ds with the inflation calculator and you'll see that the value remained pretty steady over the long run, present post-covid booms excluded. The vintage stuff will hold its value I suspect. @@joeymc5272
This is pretty bad news…in 2022 the workers tried to unionize at Moog in NC doesn’t seem like they were successful and most likely will quit or get laid off due to this 😢
@@keshermediahow was it phrased?
“ they couldn’t unionized because they owned, they would lose their equity if they join a union” this sounds like one of those corporate brainwashing schemes that companies use to try to keep unions out, i’ve worked for companies that have unionized, and during the whole process, they would tell us stuff like this and a lot of workers would be victims and believe it, but they don’t realize that once you unionize. everything that you have is up for negotiation, so you very well could keep certain perks that you have, otherwise, you vote the contract down, and they go back to the negotiating table.
Sad and disturbing. Zero loyalty from the top town.
@@joshk2181 I presume they were losing loads of money and had no choice from the banks to sell to these people. Sad times.
Hoping they band together and build something new, but old enough to know the probability is low.
Take care of your Moog. It will be worth a fortune in a few years Everyone will want an original moog with "that sound"
Studio Electronics already make a superior Moog.
@@JackNance22
Those are super-rare and often just as expensive as the original though.
My favourite Moog was a Radio Shack licence - had branding by both Moog and Radio Shack! Excellent synth although it fell apart, poor choice in the foam sealant. Donated it to someone who was willing to do the tricky repair. MG-1 I think it was.
That's completely BS.
ugh the reason you got it for that reason is ugh
Moog Music, we will miss you.😢
I shall now refer to you as Boog.
InMoogic
which would be wrong.
Now finally we can buy Behringer without a bad conscience.
Don’t count on that. The new parent company is larger than Behringer, and there may be some litigious letters being sent which may actually give Behringer something to think about.
@@aquaticborealis4877
Litigious letters about what? The patents already ran out.
@@unduloid The Model 15 is a copy of the Grandmother, no? Even the color scheme.
@@aquaticborealis4877
The designs are still different enough, though.
@@unduloid Hm, Spice and the Subharmonicon? Crave and the Mother 32, Edge and the DFAM? Those looked like Behringer was clearly targeting admired synths currently in the market. You don’t have to be identical, you just have to show that there is an effort to repeatedly copy others. There are other examples of Behringer copying current products of various companies. Not a hard thing to prove I think. Roland successfully cowed Behringer into a settlement, and it’s arguable that Moog has more of a case. I could see this going badly for Behringer, especially in legal discovery, where they’d have to turn over a lot of information. Behringer will want to avoid that. inMusic is huge, has the resources to fight, and there’s already suggestions from people in the industry that inMusic is eyeing recouping costs. They are not the type of company to just sit back and let copies of their investment sell at their expense. They may try to make Moog more competitive, but I don’t doubt that they will go after Behringer if they feel their investment is threatened.
That's where music companies go to die--the Koch Records of equipment.
😂😂😂
aka eOne Music
aka MNRK Music
When asked how Moog felt about Behringer cloning several of Moog's machines as well as those of other brands, an executive from Moog said that he thought it was great the Behringer was making synthesizers available to up and coming musicians who could not afford or justify more expensive hardware. That would enable more users to become professionals who could upgrade to more expensive machines like Moog's. I have to agree with that because I am an example of that. For decades I dreamed of owning a MiniMoog but even a used MM was too expensive for me as a beginner. The Poly D by Behringer opened that door for me. I acquired the Poly D and a couple other Behringer clones a few years ago. After a year or so of dabbling around with budget clones, I felt the need and the justification to move on to more expensive, sophisticated and capable synthesizers.
I'm afraid however, that the Moog executive's attitude will change under the direction of a corporate conglomerate. To the corporate bean counters, Behringer may look like a threat to corporate profits and they may try to shut down Behringer's cloning of Moog products. I hope they don't but I won't be surprised if they do.
They won’t get anywhere if they try. The minimoog patent is now outdated and public domain
Yeah, Minimoog came out in 1970, 53 years ago- patents long expired!
@@Andronicus2007They’ve just done knock offs of DFAM, Mother & SubH
@@vaiman7777 Well, if anything has been infringed, that's Moogs, or should I say Inmusics job to defend their I.P. I personally think Behringer are smart enough to copy without infringing on any patents.
Yeah. I respect their product line and co-op structure, but I wasn't going to be in the market for a genuine Moog any time soon. I continue to believe that is true for most Behringer customers, especially those in the "developing world."
There goes the QUALITY!!!!! Just ask MPC owners!!!!😑😞🤨😠😡🤬 I HATE InMusic they know how to BEHRINGER things up!!! 🫡🔥🇨🇦
Asheville resident here, MOOG was employee owned but not all the employees including my homies had any stake and in fact were not being paid living wage. Hence the failed unionization attempt which did not recieve enough votes to pass. The company didn't have the money to unionize, and in fact could barely pay payroll last month even staying corporate.
Mavis didn't help, moogerfooger digital must not have helped hence the massive sale. Moog has no MPE or polyphonic aftertouch either which I thought for sure they would try as a last ditch effort.
I will be keeping my Moogs for surrrrreeee now
49% is NOT employee owned.
I agree, the 49% wasn't even in half of the employees hands. think about that
@@NikoNoxious Is there something wrong with you?
49% is what was given out as shares, depending on how many people took the shares would be the amount of dilution of shares.
If people chose not to take shares, that's on them, the shares were there as an offering.
Livable wage, so why not cut back on more jobs and allow people to be paid more?
Do you even understand how much it costs to build any Moog synth in house? Why do you think there is no car industry anymore? Human labor is just not as competitive as labor force offshore.
RIP Moog.
Moog employees/board wanted to cash out. They did. End of story.
Behringer, Korg, Arturia can still build and sell some bits of analogue circuitry because they sell a lot of it - they place enough orders to keep the components production going, Moog doesn't.
Even so, it's not really economical when you can do everything with DSP inside a 10 dollar ARM chip, ask Roland. And it's not really efficient when you can run 20 virtual analogue synths on your run-down laptop or ipad, ask Native Instruments.
By Moog Employees you meant Mike Adams.
That "Jack is a real bastard who stopped my royalty cheques" comment was GOLD!!!!! hahaha
Roger Linn!!!!!
@@davido3109 Yeah, pissing off one of the OG gear design legends is not a good look.
@@entropybentwhistle it's Treal!!! Agree totally!!! We love Roger Linn!! Thanks to the creators of machines... They make a way for us to express... Namaste
The fire nation, The water tribe, the earth kingdom and Air nomads! hahahaha! This ish made my day!!!
And Native Instruments has apparently bought Plugin Alliance, iZotope and Brainworx.
I'm not liking any of this.
Behringer and a plethora of soft-synth companies,
have all but made the high prices of Moog a waste of some hard earned money for nostalgia.
I did a shootout with my Minimoog and Cherry Audio's emulation and I seriously couldn't
justify buying a MiniMoog at that point.
You sold your Moog Minimoog for a plugin? 😂
I have a Moog sub 37, great low bass sounds is one thing. And a great editor for the computer. Also very fun is the disco light show with the leds that I can put on. I will keep it, maybe people will pay a lot of money later, then for me saying : sorry not for sale.
same here, while it will potentially be nice to see the resale value of my sub37 climb, it's not like i'd sell it. all i'd end up doing with that money is buy another sub37 :D
I better buy my moog matriarch now before they start putting all kinds of cheap plastic in there stuff
A purchase now is kind of risky. Legacy products during buyouts like these usually don't get supported very well...
Oh no... I didn't know that this inmusic company owned these brands, but I've been avoiding most of these brands due to issues with their products. This was informative and unfortunate. :(
There's nothing wrong with Akai gear. I have an MPC Live and it's fantastic.
@@atarkus8 I'm happy for you, but I've had 2 brand new akai controllers with some bad pads and haven't bought again.
@@zloboslav_ Get them to replace it for you. That's not right.
@@atarkus8 1st was replaced, 2nd one I sold, there won't be a 3rd, because I went with Arturia
If MOOG wanted to survive they would not jack up the prices higher than god. Why a another Model D. They sooooo lost it.
Is the lasted model D a re-issue of a re-issue or is it a re-issue of a re-issue of a re-issue? I can't keep is straight, lol.
Glad I locked in my Sub 25 last year. It really is 'all that.' Not reproducible. The combo of the dual + sub sweepable oscillators + multi-drive is the definition of FAT, especially in the low end.
Is it because they couldn’t figure out how to make the MiniMoog without the $5K price tag? 😃
ESG score is through the roof tho!
Behringer figured it out
@@scheetmcborsten7977 Well now, there in lies the funny. You uncovered the joke!
LOL
@@scheetmcborsten7977 Exactly. I’ve owned several Minimoog’s over the past 40 years & no one can tell my that Behringer didn’t hit the nail on the head with their $500 Poly D. I’m not even trying to hear the “Moog is quality” argument either. I’ve not a single person who’s Minimoog didn’t drift out of tune all of the time. There’s absolutely no reason to pay $5000+ for ANY Minimoog when there are a ton of mono synths that can do the job just as well or better… I said what I said…😏
hahahaha "Innovation" hhahahahahahahaa
Norlin 2.0.
You would think that Moog Music would have learned something from its history, such as the fact that every time they've been bought out, the results have been pretty awful. Musonics brought in loads of janky business and accounting issues. Norlin's takeover marked an attempt to make "cheap" Moogs...remember the Realistic MG-1? Then when Norlin got eaten by the Gibson juggernaut, Moog tried to step their game up with instruments like the Source and the precursor to the Moog One, the Memorymoog. Never mind the fact that Moog utterly bollixed the MIDI implementation for it, or the aging problem that gradually killed aspects of the microprocessor...like the oscillator self-tune function.
And then there was the trademark theft by some asshat out of Cincinnati, Don Martin, who set up a con to become the CEO of the barely-existant "Moog CE". This barely-legit thing is why Dr. Bob had to use "Big Briar" at first... because that clown STOLE the trademarks! Thankfully, legal heads prevailed there.
Not that Moog gets off scot-free here...
Moog had people begging them for years to reissue the individual modules for use in other synthesizers. Makes sense, right? But no...they couldn't be bothered, and the vast majority of potential customers moved on to Dotcom and Moon Modular for their 5U format fix. Or Eurorack...where you can buy all the Moog-lineage modules (or some outright copies, and not only Uli's) until you get so broke that you have to find another refrigerator box to put the studio in, right next to the one you're already living in.
And Moog Music, who could've gotten some phat bank off of that...just couldn't be bothered. So they wound up not merely getting their lunch eaten, they laid out an artful brunch buffet and stepped back as the consumers walked on by. Why spend $39 on brunch (mimosas not included) when you can go to Waffle House for pocket change AND possibly get to see flying chairs whilst enjoying your pecan waffle? Same model applies here, too. Can you afford a real Moog 55? Probably not. But can you afford Behringer's 55 clone(ish)? Given that you could conceivably buy a couple dozen of Uli's knockoffs for the price of the Big Dawg, well...
It's not merely that, though. The One was a great follow-up to the Memorymoog. Better than expected, even! Buuuuut...well, I know that I certainly don't have around $8 or 9k to drop on one, and I also know plenty of other musicians who don't, either. A little judicious market research might've indicated this, but Moog opted to use the Moog marque as a primary selling point. Very bad, very dumb.
I should note that I've got a few Moog devices...Theremini, Subharmonicon...but while they've done great stuff in the sub-$1k range, everything outside of that relies far too much on that Moog nameplate. Especially given that QC issues tend to pop up more on the more expensive Moog gear.
Besides, has anyone around here ever gotten cozy with a modular Moog? I have...and there's a lot there that's wrong. I could spend several paragraphs on the S-trig problems alone. Or the haphazard component sourcing of any of Moog's Trumansburg instruments, which were primarily modular systems until Bill Hemseth cooked up the Minimoog...which also used the same flaky S-trig arrangement for external synth connections. And EVERYONE SEEMS TO FORGET ABOUT THESE ISSUES because Moog am GOAT according to a lot of people who've never seen or worked with one in the flesh.
TBH, the end of the company was when Dr. Robert Moog shuffled off of this mortal coil, as many were dreading. It just took considerably longer to happen, but it should be pretty apparent now. Damn shame...
😳 I do love history! 🤓 Thanks for sharing your viewpoint.
This was a good run down. Thanks. I played with the Radio Shack model when it came out and thought it sounded quite good. I scratched my head when The Source came out. Didn't know it was made under different ownership. Always seemed like the Memorymoog and any improved descendants of it should have been their staple product. High enough volume on a product like that could have funded a more rational product line to stay relevant for generations to come. This obviously did not happen though.
It isn't Moog history. There was no connection to the NY Moog company. All of the "reissues" were clones with a Moog badge. I own a shitload of vintage and modern Moogs, a Covid-Era 10, and have played a vintage modular as well (briefly).
Companies that are employee owned are great. I used to work for one. They actually help people get a leg up in the world in some ways. Does depend on the company yes but at the same time selling it off like that is shady.
Sadly, the "employee owned" thing is a gimmick most of the time.. If every employee is given a single share of stock, they're technically part owners.
@@desktorp It does beg the question, which of the "shareholders" agreed to this deal?
@@crnkmnky Or was the sale a defensive move to keep them from being unionized?
I hope moog makes a 303 and a 808 type machine now
inmusic the one that paid almost 5millons dollars last year to roland for patent infrigement? Yeah, is not happening lol
@@keshermedia
I'll buy one!
lol no!
Can't wait for a hundred products with a licensed from Moog ladder filter...
Uffffffffg.... If Roger Linn said that... It's not joke....
Good video... I always dreamed about having a Moog... I don't know if that will be possible in this life... Or in what conditions...
They'll just put moog sounds in all of their products
and they'll be able to use the moog name to make it more legit (and expensive)
They can put the Moog filter in a piece of shit DJ mixer though.
I’m glad It got sold over priced hipster gear. I was tired of paying high prices, so some hipster can live in a hipster town.
One look at the packaging and you could tell someone was being paid too much.
Can’t wait to chop some beats on a Moog. 😬
Can't wait for the first Moog with internal drum styles. I really do hope they include ''polka''. Also I heard InMusic & Moog are working on an electronic drumkit for children. They're branding it as ''My First Moog'' and is made to compete with Guitar/Drum Hero.
Hahaha 🤣. Probably and hopefully not but when the new CEO smells cash.... yeah, it might happen 🥳 @@mantacoup
that intro was one of the best Weaver intros by far “something juicy happened” had me laughing too hard
I'm thinking it will be like Fender or Gibson in big corporate hands. They will keep making the high end "Made in America" synths like the MIA Fenders and Gibsons but will also have lower priced versions made in Asia and or Mexico. Rumor has it Moog couldn't make payroll anymore so it was either this or bankruptcy.
I don't think so, inMusic just kills brands or lets them barely limp along at best.
all i want is a cheaper model D reissue, who in their right mind pays 6k for a brand new reissue? Whatever happens I hope they'll make a proper nice model D that is affordable. For now it's just the Behringer Poly D
I’m in shock too! Akai low quality at Moog premium price. Happy to own my real Moog.
Since the USA is on its donwfall since 2016, I think it's the best for the international music industrie to rescue precious musical brands out of a country marching straight into either anarchy or faschism./s
I love that chimey pad at the end of your videos. That‘s all I had to say.
Moog had been Big Briar the original Moog went under in the late 70s then in the late 90s Big Briar became Moog part 2
For sure, there will be some pros/cons. We all end up going with the flow of 'change'. 🙂
yah, they need funding, just business, hopefully it doesn't change the heart and soul of "Moog"
Maybe if they sold their Model D’s just right around where the MatrixBrute sold for during its first runs… would’ve been a diff.
right? And perhaps if they had re-released a MiniMoog Voyager as well at bellow 2k bucks (because come on.. they are freaking MONO Synths for crying out loud), they would not be in such trouble. But they rather wanna maintain their elitist false image for some reason.....
. Inmusic Brands announced on March 8, 2023 that it had acquired Moog Music for $500 million. The acquisition will allow Inmusic to expand its portfolio of music brands and to tap into Moog Music's expertise in analog synthesizers.
It's a little sad because of the huge legacy - and also we need competition in that space too but at the same time...they had many many years to bring some more affordable synths to market and they started doing that just recently when Behringer already pinned them.
Moog brought more affordable synths to market beginning with the Model D, then the Micro, then others like the Prodigy and MG-1. Even the Satellite. Then the Foogers, Phatty, and even the SLIM Phatties, then the SubVariants, Werkstatt, et al.
“Shut your got damn mouth!” Agreed, let’s not hope something ridiculous happens here.
Moog for the money? Distribution? Just not sure what Moog is fucking doing. I remember visiting the assembly shop in NC, I purchased a grandmother soon after, oh well, west coast synth!
And now we get the same “wonderful” customer support.
Cant wait for my red moog!!!!!!
I wish the MPC One+ had a damn battery, speaker & came in the retro colour
“Hopefully now with the acquisition they’ll be able to fix their website..”
😆
I can't wait for the Mookai MPC D.
Special Edition
one+
Live II
oh yeah and keys 61
@@TranceCore3 In grey for only $500 more
moog snobs officially on suicide watch
sorry you couldn't afford one
@@ryanleblanc9263 sure I can. behringer d is $300 and your pretentious ears couldn't detect the difference
@@desktorp And what about the American jobs going to China? Way to support your country.
@@The_Bit_Player Moog didn't close their Ashville location and they already sourced most of their electronic components from China and Taiwan.
It's also a relatively small company (something like 50 employees) with the usual problems of greedy executives raking in way more cash than they deserve, which was one of the reasons the company couldn't stay afloat without a buyout.
If you want to solve the outsourcing problem, there are much bigger fish to fry than a small operation like Moog. I doubt you think twice about buying a smartphone or computers that aren't made in the US. But again, the real big underlying issue is electronic components; have to bring that industry back for the downstream manufacturers to prosper.
Will Moog eventually close up shop and be entirely made in China?? Maybe? Probably? Can't say at this point. The company probably isn't worth anything without the premium branding, so there's a good chance they will continue to operate out of the US so they can keep selling overpriced status symbols to talentless rich boys.
Thereno such thing as a moog snob. Just people with integrity. There are however fools who will sell out to China for cheap substitute and because that's not enough to please them, they lash out at others.
All hail our corporate overlords
Also getting emails from the NI merger stuff today... Izotope, Plugin Alliance, and Brainworx all coming under the Native Instruments hood. I've noticed their products mixing in, over the last 6 months. But now they are planning to merge under NI, all together.
That one was announced a while ago, not really "new" news at this point.
@@dodgingrain3695 Actually, if you go back and read their press releases, they were going to keep them separated. Today, they announced that is no longer the case and everything would be entirely under NI. That part, is the new news.
@@VentureNW I learned a long time ago that you can trust statements made in a corporate buyout and ultimately the parent company almost always tries to eliminate the company they bought. So I assumed the NI thing was a given in the original announcement months ago,
@@dodgingrain3695 💯 So Sequential and Moog are destined for an unpleasant assimilation, despite the obligatory smiley-handshake _bright and glorious future_ BS?
@@crnkmnky Could be....
Moog imho has been pretty stagnant as a synth innovator for a long time and the days of them being hand built have been gone for a quite a while. Just like everything else its all premanufactured in china/indonesia/vietnam/wherever and then sent to the US to be "manufactured" again and put in a box so they can charge big money for it. I get it. Behringer ate their lunch several times. Not saying the Behringer Model D was superior in anyway. But the fact is its damn decent and its affordable. Moog rode the coattails of their past for a long time. But there are only just so many people with money to burn for reissues of a famous old synths. They lost to technology that can remake exactly the same sounds for a fraction of the price. Nobody cares if the sounds they hear came from an original or not. They are for showing off to your friends that you have some cool thing in your studio. Probably rarely ever played because nobody wants to break their investment.
so Moog bad cos they "don't innovate"
but Behringer good cos they clone cheap Moogs from several decades ago.
make it make sense
@@ryanleblanc9263 never said Moog was bad. Just that it's silly to think there is anything special about their products.
RIP the bay area sound
Why did something happen to the bay?
@@pwho405 we heavily use the moog sound it's used over the 808 for our bass
@@TranceCore3 lol I know been out there a few times working on some music. I was just saying as long as the people still there the sound will live on.
@@pwho405 true. It's not like we don't got the tools or access to them out here
After seeing videos of 2 people mentioning this, I have come to the realization that I've been pronouncing Moog wrong for years.
same...
Glad I got my Sub 37.
Can’t wait for the fruity loops upgrade.
Heard a subscription plan is coming to the sub fatty.
Most things in life do not last long after the passing of the founder. Even monetary-incentivized companies have little chance of continuing the same vision and paradigm of the one who started it all. In this case: Dr. Robert Arthur Moog (/moʊɡ/ MOHG; May 23, 1934 - August 21, 2005) left a mark on history that is immortal. Internationally, all people will remember and also advance his contributions. Misguided companies will not change that, but they might ruin one good thing for someone else to make right.
haha damn am i the only one who wouldn’t mind a sampler monosynth from
moog x akai. elektron already has a couple. i feel like elektron and teenage engineering are the real ones to beat.
tfw no more wood on a moog
Get all the Grandmas and Matriarchs now, before they start releasing VSTs in a box. Maybe even some Subsequents, don't know. The prices of those will skyrocket in the future.
The best analog to this is Mesa Boogie being bought by Gibson. Their new products have been, shall we say, subpar and not living up to Mesa's legacy.
yay, more monopolisation
It is likely a lot better than the alternative. No Moog at all.
Every time I've owned a Moog it felt so premium. I really liked that Moog was a home based company that made and tested everything in-house. You could even see hand written numbers on the label. While I do enjoy brands like Behringer, because it creates affordable hardware options for artists, Moog is just one of the O.G. brands and I'd be sad to see it farmed out to Bangladesh or something
They didn't make everything in house - most of their shit was made in china, mailed to asheville, and assembled there.
I got the iStock image joke just at the end 😂 Must say I watched the video when waking up this morning so I was almost still sleeping 😑
the Fire Nation
the Water tribe
the Earth Kingdom
and the Air Nomads
May god help us all.
Let’s get that M(oog)PC brother. 😂
I am surprised it took this long for someone to scoop them up. Overhead positions will centralize quickly and get the broom. All the SMD kit go elsewhere as they are able to get those lines in place - in Mexico if they are smart or Asia if not. The design/engineering and top end through hole kit and positions will stay in what may be a downsized same or nearby location. We are unlikely to see anything to excite many synth users - mostly Mavis type garbage or uninspired variations of current offerings. The now in charge bean counters would never allow it, but they could start with Matriarch and change a few things (instead of a whole new design) for something equally great. Swap the 4 oscillators for a pair of TZFM + folder, lots of cross mod, and at least 3 simultaneous wave outs w/level each + sub. You could even just license a complex oscillator from Instruo or the like and save even more time. Then make the 2 filters fully independent, replace the delay with 2 loopable AR/AHR EGs, and put CV in panning on the VCAs. Something like that could happen fast and would be even more unique (and amazing) than the Matriarch, but it will now never happen.
all you do is cut and paste your same comment on each and every Moog news video.
@@dankeplace Yeah, I know. 😜I guess I am trying to get someone to say what they think of my idea for a different type Matriarch...
yeah, they don't have SMT lines in North Carolina.....sorry to tell you. They get their PCB's assembled by a CM, and guess where that CM is located? They do final assembly in NC, and that's probably not moving any time soon, but it's not like this changes much. Been to their facility a few times, as I am a supplier to them.
@@djlick2 I actually think they will move everything but the premium stuff a few products at a time as soon as they are able.
Moog's daughter did a video announcement and the video is 3:06 long.
i hope at least the Moog owner-employees get a decent buy out...
The music tech industry is transforming into a pretty small oligopoly and it's whack. Super whack. I already know where the business model is going for the next 10 years. Whack.
It had not occurred to me that inMusic had bought all the companies they now seemed to be the service portal for. Will obviously have to start slimming their product lines as they are going to have many excellent products but which are essentially competing with themselves. Price rise in the cards as competition disappears.
The employee/owners should receive nice check for their ownership stake, unless this was a fire sale to avoid bankruptcy.
Both!
As we all know anything with Numark/InMusic is a bad deal. It had to be that old Jack O'Donnell bastard again. The same man that screwed Roger Linn over. He ruined the Akai and Alesis brand. Now they are just mass produced cheaply made products. Infact they are more of the same as my My MPC5000 that I recently thrown away to the dumpster shared all the same parts as the Alesis Fusion HD keyboard. I had all sorts of problems with and just had to get rid of it. High failure rates of power supplies are a known issue on the 5000 given its the same faulty power supply in the Alesis Fusion go figure!
Oh wow, I emailed MoogMusic a couple of weeks ago, still waiting on response.
I just bought a Subharmonicon and Minitaur do go with my dfam, Grandmother and pedals but with the price of new mini’s I’ll never afford them once the brand is truly ruined. I don’t like going into debt for gear but this move has me strongly considering it.
Maybe MOOG should make dedicated control surfaces for their soft synths. The Model D app sounds real enough to me. What It needs is real knobs and switches. I map my Sub 25 to it.
I like this combo in particular. SO glad I've got an iPad now for that app. Sub 25 is incredibly underrated amongst us "mere mortals" financially!
Who knows what impact it will have?
Legendary hardware makers SSL once proudly made their gear in Oxford England; these days they seem to engineer in England and manufacture in China.
My bus plus seems to be great build quality. Maybe Moog will be able to reduce prices and compete with the budget conscious Behringer juggernaut
Alesis and Moog will make a baby synth. The Moogcron
Andromooga
Oli Goes Poly
Soundwide is no more its just Native Instruments now 😂😂
Damn all those companies inmusic owns are garbage lmao
So glad i got my sound studio last year
I've been using Numark Mixstream Pro and Denon DJ SC6000M decks for the last 2 years. Amazing Support and Quality
That's the "Word on the Street" for sure. Not sure where people are assuming all hell is going to break loose because InMusic took over a brand.
It's quite obvious what will happen in the boardrooms; 'OK great, we have 200,000,000 of these duff converters and chips from the mixer lines, is there a way we can 'save the planet' and use all that garbage stock ? Yes, we were hoping you were going to ask 🤣
The Claravox Theremin 2000 produced and now canceled. Can't wait for the Behringer clone . . .
Recently bought another Black Matriarch, knew this day was coming. So sad.
R.I.P Moog
Roland please remake MC707 now with updates, don’t let this happen to you all. Add a bigger screen and WC1 support.
Well this is what happens when the employees of an employee owned company goes on strike. They end up selling out. That’s unfortunate because except for the Moog one, they have a good lineup. Now inMusic is probably the worst conglomerate, right up there with Behringer.
I still love my DeepMind!
I'd say inMusic is worse then berringer. Can't name a single in music product that's great or innovative, atleast behringer has put our a few new synths that aren't terrible.
Moog should have sold to Moog. Reunite the family like MS and JP Morgan should
Not sure MMK wants that burden.
Small correction:
Soundwide is done. It’s all Native Instruments now.
I posted this like right before that announcement was made 😵
Thank god musictribe didnt buy them. How shitty would it be to be owned by the company that owns behringer.
lol, would have been an improvement over inMusic!
RIP
This doesn’t change the value of my Moog Source. I love it no matter who owns the company
soundwide is now all native instruments 2:40
… but everything changed when the inMusic nation attacked
DEM DAMN CORPERATIONS ARE F'N MONSTAH'S ! 😱😱😱😱😱
Yeah, I didn't take it as good news. Makes me feel lucky about my choice for a monosynth in my recent purchase, a Pro 3 SE. Moog Matriarch was on my list of synths I was comparing. Even though my Pro 3 SE arrived with issues, I had superb support, and Sequential sent me a new main board that I easily swapped out myself. When we start seeing stuff manufactured in China, it often comes with manufacturing shortcuts to safe cost, some of which gets in the way of easily servicing something ourselves. I love my MODX, but getting inside it I imagine would be a nightmare. I had to repair my MOTIF and it was one of the hardest things to take apart just to replace one broken key. Seriously, I could of rebuilt and engine in the same amount of time! And the MOTIF was made better in Japan. I think Yamaha's flagship synths, are still made in Japan. The MODX+, however I can't find where they are made, which usually means China.
Sequential being owned by Novation doesn't bother me, Novation itself makes good products with great service.
Does this mean original moogs are going to get more expensive or the opposite?
Probably for a time, then it will eventually settle down. Inflation seems to be driving the prices, though that doesn't make sense. If inflation means you have to raise prices, it also means that no one else needs to pay it.
@@Rhythmicons demand is what creates inflation and as long as we continue to consume and purchase prices continue to go up that is just economics. My question is more related to which i should have phrased better, is quality going to go out the window and are products going to get cheaper from mass production and probably cheaper components resulting in more affordable prices where everyone can buy and in the long run more money is made for the company selling.
Inflation is almost irrelevant when Moog has always fetched a premium just because of the badge. Demand doesn't drive the rapacious sellers like ARMENS who want 10k for a run of the mill Model D with no provenance, especially when there are over 10k vintage model Ds in the wild. When the Covid checks were coming out, folks were willing to pay more than 500 bucks for a simple MF101 filter, and people regularly justify ridiculous prices because they aren't patient enough to wait for prices to come down. I think entities like reverb, who have their price charts are artificially inflating the prices as well. Compare a vintage price list for Model Ds with the inflation calculator and you'll see that the value remained pretty steady over the long run, present post-covid booms excluded. The vintage stuff will hold its value I suspect. @@joeymc5272
naaa, imho, fear not. It´s for supply and distribution chain..... and of course, $... Moog might positively explode after this... 🤞
Welp, this is dying before death
It’s probably fine