Norway has a 10% import tariff on electric vehicles from China and 25% VAT above 600,000 NOK (approx. 60,000 €). This lack of VAT below 600,000 NOK combined with several other benefits has boosted Norwegian EV adoption. Especially since Diesel and Petrol vehicles, have emission based fees, an increased weight tax, and VAT is applied from 0 NOK. I think it was a very good idea from the finance minister Trygve Slagsvold Vedum not to hike the tariffs, to continue EV affordability in Norway.
VAT (25%) is for every NOK above 500K (not .600K). There is also an additional weight tax of about €1 for every kg over 500kg. Yes, yes. I'm a stickler for detail.
@@humphreybradley3060 On the economics, China is subsidizing their EV companies, which is the economic equivalent of a bail out. Tariffs should be applied to compensate for those subsidies to allow the free market to work. There is also the national security consideration. Energy and transportation are critical industries for the rest of the economy to function. If China behaves like Russia (they are buddies after all) and slows access to batteries or new vehicles should there be a war, such as over Taiwan's independence, reliance on China for these industries is a systemic threat to the economy that China could exploit.
Dave, you are such a pleasure to visit with. All your episodes are so obviously well researched and have terrific graphics. Keep up the good work. Crystal in Canada 🇨🇦
Canada currently has a 300% import tariff against Chinese solar imports. Its been in place since the start of the Harper era. The only company sort of exempt from that is "Canadian Solar" Which despite its name? Is a Chinese company, who just happened to have a couple Canadian investors who greased the skids so they only pay 85% tariff on the cells they import. If that tariff were dropped? You would be buying 400 watt solar panels for $120. 30% less than that if you were buying it by the pallet.
11:15 '...argue that the focus should not be on trying to keep Chinese EV makers out of western markets like king Canute trying to push back the tide, but instead lawmakers should be constructing policy frameworks in which western nations can allow Chinese EV sales *but only when manufacturing facilities are built and operated locally in **_joint partnerships_** with western automakers.'* exactly! that is probably the only way to make this work for us. otherwise, the folly and hubris of western automakers which were too successful in lobbying their governments to delay pushing EV as the new standard in favour of extending life for combustion engines will slowly lose ground and phase out of being relevant in the coming years with all the sorrow associated.
Yes, that strikes me as the most important part of the video as well. We shouldn't just let them sell EVs here, we should get them to build EVs here and then sell them. It's the smartest course.
Nonsense, no western carmaker want to work in joint ventures outside China, because even inside China, they hate it and try to get out of it, either buying the partner out or leaving the country... Bottom line is, if you don't understand, what is really going on in China, economically and politically, you have no clue what the problem really is, and how to solve it...
Someone actually called you that, Dave? Nasty! I opine that we have put ourselves at a disadvantage with China simply by outsourcing our manufacturing there decades ago so that corporate bosses could put more mammon in their pockets by paying workers overseas only a rice bowl per day. Now we complain? Pffft. Yes, I remember when consumers turned up their noses with Japanese cars, yet eventually their quality improved and won us over. The irony is that Chinese EVs are already on a par with, if not better than, anything we produce. And I would say that what's coming out of South Korea is similar (yes, I'm biased with my EV). Well… as I've said many times, I understand when countries want to protect and bolster their own manufacturing, but with the climate crisis growing exponentially worse every day, we need "all hands on deck" to get rid of tailpipes worldwide and accelerate the transition to renewable energy ASAP. If some of those "hands" are Chinese… so be it. We have NO time to lose at this point! Cue the pe'trolls!
A few random thoughts: focus on vehicle to grid application, focus on stable grids, winter conditions, recycling. Until then I drive my 1984 V8 diesel here in the northern prairies...
I dispute that we have no time to lose, at least in Australia, until we remove coal as our major night time electricity generation method, any advantages of running an EV for the sake of the environment is pretty quickly cancelled out. Even if we completely removed all co2 emissions from vehicles overnight, it would still only represent about 6% of the savings we require to get to net zero. EVs will be the future eventually but without a clean way to produce the electricity to run them, they should not be a priority.
@@isaac827The March 2024 reports on Australian energy production show renewables is at 39% and growing. It does show too much reliance on coal but that seems to be reducing. You also have great opportunities for home solar with battery backup for both day and nighttime charging. If solar works in the UK, and it does despite what some on you tube might say, (I’m getting around 20 - 22kW per day at the moment) it should work well in Australia.
The reason the American,s and Europeans are far behind china in ev,s is not because of outsourcing. They all knew when china began development of electric cars and they should have done the same back then. The Toyota Prius and Nissan Leaf was already pointing in that direction. All they needed to do was continue from that headstart which they already had over china.
The UAW is arguably one of the strongest unions in the country with immense influence in a swing state. It is about workers but a small set of workers.
I suspect that politicians in the US like Marco Rubio are pushing green protectionism in order to protect the fossil fuel industry from ever cheaper green technology.
Both anyway, however it might slow down innovation, but it could also ensure that the US car manufacturers have enough profit to develop electric vehicles and it helps to control the trade deficit anyway. However the trade deficit is not that important for the US since it issues the reserve currency, namely the USD.
@@100c0cit really isn't. As a former dealership technician it REALLY isn't. It's about the largest contributing businesses. Not the technicians on the floor and in the field.
Dave: It is pretty clear that US and European tariff would not stop Chinese EV. Your historical reference to the rise of Japanese auto industry is fantastic. Your suggestion to let Chinese makers build EV in the US and Europe is spot on. "If you can't beat them, join them".
again tariffs and NO tariff restrictions "allow" the makers to drop lower profit models and ONLY focus on high profit LARGE SUVS every other market has healthy competition all through the price spectrum / car size - even pickups and cargo vans come in MANY sizes that the USA never sees
Don't forget estate cars. You know, for people who actually need a proper big car that can store a lot of stuff in it, while using drastically less fuel/electricity than an SUV
I agree. This obsession with SUVs is baffling to me. Horrible looking boxes on wheels! For me, the most important things in any car I wish to own are: 1. How well does it handle on the road. 2. Is the styling pleasant to my eyes. 3. Is the price reasonable. 4. Is it economical
Small correction: The BYD plant in Hungary isn't just being planned, it is already being actively built. I go by the construction site each day to work, and it's actually shocking how fast it's progressing each day. Construction projects here are usually painfully slow, a stark contrast to how this plant is progressing. I work in industrial automation actually, and my company might actually work there on some projects as sub contractors.
Two years into owning an MG5 LR - it’s a great car, definitely a bargain when I bought it. Adding 38% to the price - if SAIC decide to pass it on to consumers - would put the price on a par with European equivalents - if they existed. No one else is making an EV estate / brake.
Another commentor that doesn't understand that the sale price of the car doesn't have to go up by 38% with 38% taxes. They sell the car for 20k in China and sell it for 30k before VAT over here. The 38% tax is only so high because SAIC refused to cooperate with the EU, by not showing their supplier prices. With the tax they drop from 10k to still 2,4k extra profit per car, without raising the sell price by a cent. They still make more profit by selling the car over here than directly in China. But the 7500€ tax compensates the money the Chinese state pushes into the industry to push all other countries out of the competition.
@@Psi-Stormdo you know the EU also ask them to provide with the technical component and chemistry behind ? This is clearly too much. Read two sides of the story not just from the typical European media.
BYD and MG are doing really well in Australia, and the number of Chinese brands coming down under is increasing rapidly. With some now manufacturing in Thailand, this will increase rapidly. Cheers
Labor Government. Next they will be asking the CCP to build our overdue Hunter Class Frigates and our Nuclear Subs. Sure they will fall apart in a few years. But it will be cheaper and better quality than building them in Australia. 🙄
How can we get a piece of the pie in Australia?Ask for a Chinese company such as Zeekr to produce here,ask Chinese car companies to make investments in our critical mineral mining and processing,ask for CATL to produce batteries here.I don’t know the answer but ponder the questions regularly.
@@robertpatterson4185Instead we have asked China to do the opposite , I wonder why ??? Did the recent 'forced sell off' of Northern Minerals shares ring a bell ??? These days , "national securities" dictates everything ! For instance , TikTok
@@robertpatterson4185keep pondering , I'm sure you will find the answer coz my previous responses have been deleted by YT . Apparently it's a sensitive topic here in the land down under as well , like in the US. Hint: Northern Minerals, TikTok
@@jimt2762 I think it’s different with America as they have a car industry to protect.We haven’t got one but need to ensure we allow car imports providing we get something in return.The Law of comparative advantage doesn’t work if a country heavily subsidies their industries.
In the USA the politics of this is intense and where I would opine most of the problem lies. We have embraced globalization for a few decades now. The phase change of moving to EVs condemns all that came before as obsolete. The Chinese wisely picked this moment. Globalization in combination with a new industry caught USA OEMs flat-footed in their mindset of hoping this will just go away. Our local spin meisters are doing their best to encourage hybrids as the "real solution" with, it seems, some success recently, despite it being an already dead narrative. This all combines into an even worse long term outlook for Ford, GM and Stellantis. The longer they wait, the more difficult it will be to compete. They are already at a big disadvantage due to raw materials supply chains. IRA notwithstanding, it is impossible to compete at the materials level with China given our many environmental and social welfare laws. Even if the robotics revolution mostly eliminates UAW workers, our OEMs will still be at a disadvantage due to these materials. Seems like quite the conundrum. I doubt that any form of free trade will preserve either Ford or GM unless they moved manufacturing to some free trade country for export to the USA. China is already lost to legacy OEMs, Germany included, because the Chinese are moving to fully electric. Our local spin doctoring is of no use in China, so the long term strategy is really only about USA sales. All we truly have is Tesla and Rivian (Sorry Lucid guys. I think they are walking dead.) Americans are currently on the hate Tesla / Musk bandwagon, so we have an irony here that the most likely long term automotive success is a company we want to fail. Heh.
Musk’s extreme political ideology is alienating him from both progressive and centrists who are the prime market for electric vehicles. The far right and deeply conservative are slowly modifying their opinion in favour of Musk personally but are ideologically opposed to EVs. Musk has an uphill battle to win them over. Personally we bought a Tesla in 2019 here in Australia and am very happy with the car. In the medium term we would love to replace our ICE car with a second EV as finances allow but it is looking increasingly unlikely that this will be a Tesla.
@@robsengahay5614 In the end, people buy cars and other goods base on the best price and quality, not on the politics or antics of the company CEO's. Left wing activist like to push the narrative that Tesla is losing sales due to Musk, but have no evidence to support their claims. All EV sales are down or flat currently. Tesla is doing better than most.
@robsengahay5614 not a bad assessment, but from experience of dealing (or not) with the mafia-like strategy that threatens your kids if you are serious enough to retaliate for threats against your person.. Frustrated Rage is all global.
@@robsengahay5614 Ideology doesn't seem to have any bounds when looking at the world stage or one's local milieu. Media takes things and sometimes misrepresents them and sometimes builds a bonfire where there was only a lit match. As such, I personally try to stay away from assessing, let alone commenting, on any ideology supposedly expressed by any public figure, because I have no access whatsoever to the various underlying truths. The chameleonesque nature of all public figures is so complete these days that it is well nigh impossible to know their true beliefs, if in fact true belief actually even exists anymore. In the USA I can't begin to assess what Harris or Trump actually think. This has accomplished an unprecedented voter apathy that only gets worse with time. As far as Musk goes, I couldn't care less what he believes as long as he leads companies whose products or services make the world a better place. Gates, Bezos, Zuck, Ellison, Bara, on and on, can all be annoying if we choose to pay attention. Waste of time to pay attention.
We rented an MG4 in the UK this summer, for three weeks. It was OUTSTANDING. The only real gripes I had: the LKA is too aggressive; there could be just a smidgeon more space for the driver's left foot; and the electric windows are too fast (getting a half-inch gap was a bit of a game of chance). Otherwise, the car blew me away. So fast -- really fast, I kept it in Eco mode! -- smooth, precise, agile, great regen braking; and great fast charging for long trips. We own two EVs here in the US -- a 2016 VW e-Golf and a 2022 Hyundai Kona Electric -- and they are both great. The MG4 was a step up (apart from the lack of lane centering, something the Kona does very well, tho ours doesn't have adaptive cruise, no biggie).
I agree with all you have said about the bad long term consequences of tariffs Dave. The short term consequences are very simple. For 10 years we have been waiting for cheaper EVs. Now they have arrived, now we have tariffs. Consumers, you can keep on waiting.
China also forced foreign EV battery makers to waive their IPR to access their EV market; then created gov't approved "whitelist" that excluded all foreign battery makers from accessing their subsidies and local market. No kidding.
I haven't seen your other videos yet, so I don't know why anyone would attack you. You've neither said anything pro- nor anti- China in any way. I gave you a thumbs up for the video.
US car companies need to get on board the green revolution, instead of keeping our EV choices limited, and keeping EV prices for American made cars out of reach for most people.
@thetalkingbear the oil and gas industries dump so much money into American politics. The democrats rammed the inflation reduction act through without a single republican vote. Now, republican states have a lot of green jobs popping up. It will be interesting over the next few decades as more and more Americans work in green jobs
You do realize the electricity that charges your Tesla comes primarily from coal, gas, oil? Maybe when we develop a non polluting battery that can store electric generated by PV and windmills we can start talking a phase over away from IC.
@@billycarr7446 you realize most people who can afford a Tesla either chose the renewable energy option that comes from solar and wind or have solar themselves right?
We knew this was coming, but were unable to agree on how to compete. We just dont react until the recognition is unavoidable. Tarrifs can give US companies time to breathe, but it isnt a solution. I liked your idea about making foreign companies partner 50% with US companies.
We're not doing competition. This has been stated multiple times. The United States is not going to coexist in the world where they're not number one. I'm telling you right now dude, it's going to be some s***.
Tariffs are in effect a tax on domestic consumers. causing inflationary pressures. Not what you want. It also protects industrial dinosaurs producing substandard & expensive stuff.
The alternative may be accepting the destruction of your domestic industry by a foreign government providing subsidies to their manufacturers. It isn't black & white The British motorbike industry and TV manufacturing were arguably destroyed by subsidised products from Japan. Many jobs were lost in the UK, gained in Japan, and we all got cheaper TVs and better bikes for a while at least
I'd personally welcome BYD to open a factory here in Canada along with the models they are introducing to our market in the next few months... They'll only not be in the USA at this point soon enough and I have a feeling even that will change... Especially since labor costs in factories will have dropped significantly with automation doing more and more tasks by the day... More money per worker hopefully but probably less overall workers...
Canadian government is proposing 100% tariffs to Chinese EVs as well. Talk about blind sided and not see their "green" energy transition that will benefit everyone.
"The Chinese government heavily subsidizes companies in the fields of electromobility, rolling stock and wind power, and makes the payment of subsidies conditional on production in China" according to April 2024 Kiel Policy Brief, 'Foul Play? On the Scale and Scope of Industrial Subsidies in China'. BYD mentioned by name throughout the brief as a major Chinese recipient of 'only Chinese production conditional subsidy'.
@@ChoadOnTheHill Western counterparts subsidize their industries with tax payers money unlike China's tax toward company's profits to fund their subsidize for economic growth.
Chinese people who also speak a decent amount of English will point out one significant issue with BYD. They are the most popular Chinese brand that has been catching fire merely being parked - not running or plugged in - and they say that BYD stands for Burn You Down.
Great work and many thanks. The collective comments and your essay paints a comprehensive picture - sorry you should have added more context. We put ourselves into this position and should take responsibility BUT most countries should maintain a strong industrial base. Having China set up shop in the US is probably necessary but the US will need to maintain pretty tight supervision of them.
I think a better comparison than the one with Japanese automakers is solar panels after the 2008 recession: The US invested heavily in companies like Solyndra only to be out-subsised by China and the company went bankrupt and it became a political talking point against the administration. Countries like the US won't want to transition to Green technologies if it further erodes their manufacturing sector and areas where manufacturing was a big part of the economy. While having a just transition may mean a slower transition, I think it's a more sustained transition.
A "just transition"? What the hell does that even mean? There's exactly one valid reason for a healthy, developed economy to ever impose tariffs or other trade restrictions. Foreign policy. To punish, or threaten to punish, a government for its bad behavior, its actions or intentions against your national interest. This may extend to a moral stand, e.g., on the treatment of the Uighur population. But trade restrictions _for economic reasons_ are just stupid, full stop. You may think you're "protecting local manufacturing," but the consumers you are taxing _far_ outnumber the capitalists you are protecting. (And sometimes, as with those Trump/Biden steel and aluminum tariffs, you harm not just consumers but _other businesses_.) So what if China "unfairly" subsidizes an industry so they can sell things to the west for cheap? Think about what is really going on: _the Chinese government is, for some reason, choosing to subsidize my lifestyle._ Why should I refuse this gift? Why should anyone? We should be encouraging them to do more of it. It's a little unfair _to the Chinese people,_ but it's all upside for the western consumer.
Interesting that you mention Japan. Toyota was one of the first to develop a hybrid car (the Prius-a HEV) long before anyone else explored this good gas saving technology. But they didn't seem to improve on this since very few of Toyota's vehicles are PHEV and Toyota seems to be falling behind many other manufacturers. It seems that car manufactures who first start new technology don't seem to transfer that technology to newer models while the competition that takes it a step further capture the market.
Diner's Club, Kodak, Nokia, Blackberry... all formerly leaders in their respective industries, now sidelined because they failed to keep up. Toyota and Honda seem to be headed on a similar path.
Japan and China...Quite different? 'In a March 2020 interview with Irish Independent, Chang said that there had been "many, many attempts" for a screen adaptation of Wild Swans but that "distributors are fearful of getting on the wrong side of the powers that be in China."' Maybe if they put tariffs on cinema tickets they could keep control of the situation?
I think the difference between China and the Japanese invasion a vehicle and Manufacturing is that Japan was a very pro-western friendly nation. Meanwhile China on the other hand is very much a bully in Southeast Asia even being violent physically two countries and organizations that do not agree with them politically. I am not aware of at any point unless somebody wants to enlighten me the Japanese attacking shipping in the 70s 80s or 90s. So while the economic Factor certainly makes sense to not have heavy tariffs, the Chinese government is heavily connected to these entities, and in my mind the West would be very much funding human rights abuses and violence towards many in the Southeast Asian area which will undoubtedly affect us farther down the road.
Absolutely. I am not personally interested in funding Papa Xi's upcoming hegemonic wars with the Phillippines over the South China Seas, Vietnam over the Spratly Island, or Japan over the Senkaku Islands.
The major difference is that Japan was never run by a communist government and China is trying to spread its version of communism through loans favorable only to the Chinese Communist Party. And it looks like you have already mentioned in your comment another very good reason not to do business with the CCP. It simply does not value human life.
Always fascinating by the idea that US project themselves as the guardian of human right. After seeing foreign war usage of chemical weapons in Vietnam, illegal invade Iraq. Domestically highest incarceration rate in the world and total ban on female reproductive right. The Cognitive dissonance level is off the chart
Is Japan surrounded by adversary bases? One should be careful with how one use the "human rights abuses" term, cause the west supports and funds most of the countries that actually commit those types of crimes. The world have seen how the western leadership pretends not to see the atrocities going on in Palestine while going hard on China for the debunked Xinjiang camps and whatnot.
Yesterday, I took delivery of a 1-year old Mercedes EQB250, a 7-seater SUV, which has a ‘realistic range’ of 450km. New price for this (in my view fabulous) car was ¥9.8M. With all the extras I got, it’d be ¥11M. I paid exactly ¥5M. Great for me, but really worrying for the market. The dealer says they have dozens and dozens of similar EV deals, 50% drop in value in just a year. Why is this happening? I hear it’s happening in other countries too. Dave, I think you should do a segment about this.
@@yulusleonard985 you’re probably right. A bit like with mobile phones 20 years ago. For me, though, it’s a scream buy; a year old luxury Mercedes SUV, with a range of 450km, for less than $30,000? Who could pass on a deal like that?
Cause Mercedes EVs are bassiclly trash here in China，you pay mainly for the brand，and got much lower setups and overall quality than other local brand EVs like BYD. Not worth the money so to speak.
@@simonrado4568 It has great spec, drives like a dream and actually gives you the range it says it does. Do you own one? No? Seems you’ve bought into the usual Chinese propaganda.
The problem is not the Chinese, but the cars... However to not upset domestic workers, and the pro-car lobby, politicians feel compelled to blame the Chinese. I tried suggesting an idea to Mark Harper when he was transport secretary (before the election), but he must of seen through my ruse as he rejected it in favour of "free market principles".
The West heavily subsidizes its industry, just like China but for different reasons. Example: Oklahoma gave tax breaks to oil & gas companies in the state, reducing education funding to help fill the budget gap, on the threat that the petro companies would take their business elsewhere if they didn't get the tax cut. 🤔 My point is: Capitalism in the West fails compared to Capitalism in China, the East in general, because the fundamental goal is different. In the West the primary goal is to enrich corporations and their shareholders while in the East it's to advance the nation first, and companies second.
If by advance the nation you mean the elite members of the CCP. As they crack down on any form of even mild dissent and the average citizen lives a life of toiling 996 while the standard of living stagnates.
That kind of assumes the Chinese government means well, but how deeper one digs in to it, how more it seems to also aim at enriching the people at the top. Rampant corruption basically, so you're trading one kind of evil for another, biggest difference being Chinese style goes out of its way to try and deceive and hide how big the problem is, while companies are at least honest about their goals. It's not really a way out of the problems of the green cycle as such sadly. Though it will be interesting if we do find a way to escape it one day.
the west every little area is "competing" with every other area places like CHINA view the total as a whole and plan that way AND look 25+ years into the future NOT next quarter OR election
I love these videos, thank you Dave. Human rights are a big issue for some of us consumers: if our Chinese-branded cars were built in the EU then we would at least be assured that EU-based factory employees enjoyed some human rights safeguards.
King Canute reference +1. I agree with you a hundred percent on this one. The best course for western governments is to let the Chinese EVs in, provided they're mostly manufactured here by western workers. It's like you said, the Chinese let Western automakers in under a similar scheme, so we might as well do the same thing with them. Trying to keep products out of your domestic market with tariffs, when they're both more economical and better targeted to consumers than your local products, is a self defeating enterprise. Is it fair competition? Probably not. But our domestic automakers need to learn to compete.
The European Motor industry has been dragging its heels, seems unable & completely unwilling to adapt to the much needed reality of electrification of transport, trying & succeeding in delaying the end of fossil fuel vehicle production with little or no regard the European citizens Air Quality, Health & Well Being we are still counting the Deaths from the DIEselGate debacle! They don't deserve our support anymore let them go bust they have no regard for me or my fellow citizens The highly skilled workforce in EU Motor industry is so badly needed in other more urgent climate adaption jobs & industries, let's not waste there expertise & talent on producing obsolete socially destructive poisoning machines! I won't be sorry to see the demise of the European motor industry the Chinese are just more ambitious our European Investment Bank (EIB) should of invested more in the electrification of transport like the Chinese did, a lost opportunity & why our industrial policy is obsolete & irrelevant. To much time & money was wasted on Hydrogen & E-Fuel for the fossil fuel industry to have a replacement commodity so European Governments could eventually tax as a replacement for fuel duty something intensely lobbied for by vested interests
You know that many european car companies make their cars in China, therefore specifically german ones were against the motion and France supported the toll hikes. Indeed this might damage the EU-China relationship.
@@MonoBrawI I would love the Europeans to be world leaders in Electric Aviation and that our priority should be retrofitting our housing stock, that desperately needs modernizing, every home should have sufficient insulation, solar panels and batteries, the European grid is in desperate need of updating as well, so much work to do, not enough workers with so many overdue to retire in the coming years.
@@paulc6766 Not really the impression I got, Volkswagen basically seems to have gone fairly extensively in to electric. Creating electric vehicle variant of all their main lines. Admittedly partially a reaction after the diesel scandal they got in to, but never the less they seemed to have stuck money by the tens of billions in to that effort. And they have quite substantial electric production capacity now I thought.
I kind of think this is missing an aspect really of why things like this are happening. If it were just economic competition your point is pretty valid. How ever quite a bit of this is also driven by geostrategic military thinking. In which case being to dependent on China and having them being able to cut off the production of vital military goods would be considered an unacceptable risk. Just like at the same moment they try to strange China of strategic goods like advanced semiconductor production. So China responding with counter tariffs that will drive further Western industry out? They'd probably consider that a useful feature, rather then a drawback. It would after all reduce their vulnerability to China. Ultimately in a sense this is all happening to such an extent because China failed to convince for instance the USA that they have no ill intent. With out that while no doubt the USA would still do things, it would probably be far less severe. Having said that, the idea of making Chinese companies setup together with Western companies in local manufacturing could presumably help substantially in alleviating this problem as well. So that's certainly an option to keep in mind I guess.
*Summary* *China's EV Strategy:* * *(**2:21**)* China identified the automotive industry as a key growth area, heavily subsidizing domestic EV production. * *(**2:42**)* China strategically focused on EVs knowing they were behind on traditional car technology and sought to decrease reliance on foreign oil. * *(**2:55**)* As a result, Chinese companies are now global leaders in EV technology, production costs, and battery technology. *Western Response and its Potential Issues:* * *(**3:41**)* The US and EU applied hefty import tariffs on Chinese EVs, citing unfair government subsidies. * *(**4:55**)* The video argues these tariffs are driven by political motives more than sound economic thinking, similar to how Japanese cars were treated in the 70s & 80s. * *(**6:23**)* Tariffs are likely ineffective long-term: * *(**6:23**)* Chinese manufacturers may accept lower profits to gain market share. * *(**7:40**)* They are already investing heavily in manufacturing outside of China (Spain, Turkey, Mexico, etc.) to circumvent tariffs completely. *Potential Downside of Tariffs for the West:* * *(**11:53**)* Consumers lose access to more affordable and potentially better suited EV options (smaller cars favored by younger buyers). * *(**11:53**)* Chinese retaliation with tariffs on western goods is likely. * *(**11:59**)* Tariffs may hurt Western companies that source parts from or manufacture in China. * *(**12:26**)* Slows the overall transition to EVs by propping up Western companies and limiting consumer choice. *Alternative Approach Suggested:* * *(**11:13**)* Instead of blocking Chinese EVs, western governments should incentivize joint ventures and local production partnerships between western and Chinese automakers. This is how China gained manufacturing expertise from Western companies in the past. *In Conclusion:* The video suggests that attempting to block Chinese EVs through tariffs is a short-sighted and potentially damaging policy. A more collaborative approach focusing on domestic production and partnership could be more beneficial for consumers, the transition to green energy, and long-term economic competitiveness. I used Google Gemini 1.5 Pro to summarize the transcript. Cost (if I didn't use the free tier): $0.0650 Time: 24.32 seconds Input tokens: 15745 Output tokens: 946
It's ironic that some talk about this under the guise of a communist threat while in fact it's the extreme opposite. The reality is that China is using capitalism to beat us at our own game. The only good response is to double down and compete in an open market. The US government as well as all other capitalist countries regularly tip the scales in favour of their own favorite industry with massive subsidies. China is doing the same. They had the foresight to understand which industries (wind, solar, batteries, EVs, etc.) would dominate in the future and focused on those. We should be happy that they are following our example shouldn't we. Instead we focus on fabricated outrage on issues that don't matter an lose focus on the prize.
They also had the advantage of having slave labor camps to get cheap labor and very lax environmental standards. For a while there all the toxic chemicals they were producing from making solar panels was just getting dumped into the river and the work camps where the people they were trying to "reeducate" were located in the same location. The few times that CEOs of companies in China have expressed concern about some of the stuff their government has done they end up disappearing for a while.
@@pin65371 Ah, the cheap labor exploited labor that the US doesn't use for, say, their tobacco farms every harvest season. I'm glad we haven't stooped to such levels yet.
China produces more steel, EVs, solar panels, and other manufactured goods not because it is particularly more efficient than other countries, but as a result of currency depreciation that makes exports more competitive, interest rate controls on deposits and lending, and a host of direct and indirect subsidies (e.g., minimal environmental regulation, lack of workers' rights, an extremely weak social safety net), along with forced IP transfers, stolen IP, and slave labor. Essentially, China transfers wealth from the household sector (which primarily imports goods and saves within the economy) to the business and government sectors, leaving Chinese citizens too poor to consume much of what they produce or to import goods. This creates the consistently large trade surpluses that China generates, which are then forced onto Western countries. The US and other European economies are finally unwilling to accept this reality. The IRA and tariffs are a response to China’s market-distorting behavior. While the free market is the optimal solution, because China has skewed the scales, Europe and the US are now doing the same to restore balance. So, no, thank you-the US will not be welcoming our geopolitical rival with open arms.
@@r.r.r.918 The US has been subsidizing the fossil fuel industry for decades, going so far as to pursue massive wars in order to secure the flow of oil at low prices. What China is doing is far less malevolent by comparison. They saw where the world was headed and actually invested while we in the west were busy hugging fossil fuel automakers and its supporting industry to squeeze every little drop of profit out of it as possible. The "slave labor" excuse has been done to death, wages in China is pretty similar to that of Mexico, yet no massive tariffs are in sight for Mexican goods, nor was there any tariffs on China for years while it was simply the factory for major western companies rather than designing and producing their own stuff, also raking in the profits which no longer ends up in the west.
There are other factors beyond economy and development. We are funding chinese and they using that money to develop their military... if it were just an economical issue where everyone made money it would be fine but we are funding the army thats might kill us... so no sometimes its better to not grow economically if that meansbure funding an orwelian state that will crush u down the line
China is spending 1.7% of its GDP on the military, this is half that of the US and less than most European countries, including my own, Sweden, which is ramping up military spending to almost 3% of GDP. Stop the fear mongering, China is not coming for us.
Here in Belarus, we're flooded with new Chinese brands and cars, some, I have to say, extremely ugly! But they certainly offer good value for money apparently! One word to those of your viewers though Dave is this! We succumbed a year ago, seduced by a great deal on an Exceed LX! Seemed wonderful but then we drove home to the UK and realised what a huge mistake we'd made! The seats were devastatingly uncomfortable 🥵! I mean really, really uncomfortable 😖! So my advice would be, do a long, long test drive if you're thinking of Chinesium! We ditched it for a trusty Jaguar EPace from Poland...... So much better.... And the sting in the tale of this story is that Exceed is the premium brand of Chery, who are partners with.... Jaguar Land Rover!😅
I think what you trying to say is Chevrolet Ford and Chrysler are putting Terrace on because they are the ones that have a problem they’re not a compete in the market. They are a corner of the market anyway possible and if that means putting out an inferior product and having a competition, terrified to death well who loses
In the UK, we've already Lost most of our motor & vehicle manufacturing industry. Because government was unwilling to do what it takes to protect it, or properly support it. And now we have exported most of our, well paid manufacturing Jobs to China & the Far East. We now see what a catastrophic, misguided and shortsighted mistake that was. It's Too late for us, but it's not too late to protect the rest of the European vehicle manufacturing sector. Opposing that is utter madness...
Great video! I am in Canada 🇨🇦 and I hope we don’t go the Tarriff route and allow BYD to set up shop in 🇨🇦 with Canadian labour and government regulations.
Dude it's going to go all the way when it comes to the US and China thing. This is no joke. This is not a game. This is the worst thing that could ever be in human history.
I fully stand behind your reasoning. You left out one extra reason why these high tariffs on Chinese EVs are not wise. Europe urgently needs more cheaply priced EVs, since that will accelerate the stalled growth towards green transportation. With the tariffs our proper governments keep EVs artificially expensive, relative to petrol cars, while at the same time pushing towards EVs. This won’t help with lowering inflation. So not only it is bad for the environment and the climate, it is bad for the “middle class” as well, which figure so often in speeches of politicians.
Wonder what the UK will do now that we're fee of the EU? A market of 65 million odd vs 700 million in the EU, Vs Chinese Market of 1.4 billion? We've certainly taken back control. I guess that's why all the current Chinese plants are in countries with free trade agreements with the EU.. Who'd have thought of that. It ofcourse applies to all manufactured goods.
As an add on comment about the mention Dave made about younger consumers mentioning they would consider a Chinese EV. A number of members from many of the EV clubs here in Canada report that trips abroad (not the US obviously) affords them the opportunity to see/Ride in/Drive make and models we can't get here In Canada. Many report that the cars (small BYD and MG models in particular) are exactly the vehicles they are looking for. The lesser pricing is an added bonus so we will see when some of them start landing on or shores at whatever price point they end up at.
Canada's problem is that it is following the ideological crusade of its southern neighbors in trying to decouple from China which has led to it to sink billions betting on the wrong horses like Honda (a well known EV laggard and anti-EV lobbyist), Northvolt, and Stellantis (which has already thrown upon the towel to partner with Leapmotors). If the Chinese come in, those billions will most likely be wasted as BYD/SAIC/Geely/CATL will probably destroy those previous players.
The "critical thinking" for tariffs on the CCP is that same thing for Russia. Sanctions. If the CCP invades Taiwan, the West cannot be overly dependent on the ccp.
invading taiwan is a western narrative. China has always stated they'll wait as long as it takes. their economies are already tied together sharing common industries. Factories on each others lands. you don't have to worry about depending. China consumers are rapidly switching to domestic products & tech. government is accelerating derisk from dollar banks, western tech., & companies. intel won't the only one with big layoffs, apple, microsoft, gm, ford, are next. your antiChina campaign is working. they're now switch to buying their own products & techs. who really think ccp will lose the economic war. it is the west that's dependent on the ccp
First it's CPC. Secondly, Taiwan is not a country and is part of China. Much like HK where the west tried to split from China in the opium war and wreaked a lot of Chinese families.
My thought was no tariffs on cheap vehicles (say, < $14,000) , but some rate on more expensive vehicles. In U.S.A., domestic manufacturers like to sell Big vehicles with big prices/profits.
As ever, watching a handy-Brit for 1/4 of an hour is invaluably awesome! Chinese eCars are going to be the choice across the planet… we already own a Nissan Leaf as our run-around-town car and will likely switch to the better efficiency Chinese choice in a year or two!
Whether Chinese, or anything else, my first consideration will be for the workers. I won't buy any vehicle not made in a union shop. If they do start making them here, I'll be supporting the UAW, and boycott until they cave.
Tariffs r necessary part of the political toolkit and an important tool to protect markets against destructive competition. If China would be in the same shoes like USA or EU they would act exactly the same or even worse. China was protecting their gunpowder, porcelain and other unique inventions like crazy behind great wall, so the history would only repeat with the EVs and batteries. On the other hand China has built since early 2000s such an incredible momentum that other competitive markets have to artificially slow China down even it's hurting both sides. Hopefully they won't kill each other until tariffs r finally lifted once everything important in the marketplace is more balanced and stable. In the end it's consumers who should WIN, not politicians. Another well made vid, thx a lot - very communicative and approachable channel, well done!👍
18 cents per gallon of the US gas price goes to pay for American roads. EVs are heavier than ICE cars and wear them down faster and until another way is found to make up for the fact that EVs are not buying gas at all a tariff on cars that are paying for the roads is a bad idea.
I’ll say this: lots of local economies in the US faltered after the Big Three kept outsourcing. They’ve shifted to services, but they get a sense that some sense of economic diversification underpinning cultural ‘vibrancy’, or pride, has been lost. Tariffs are supposed to be some signal that these communities are being helped in some way, just as subsidies are meant as signals to stop offshoring-there are cultural dimensions to this, not just economic
It's all really complicated, as this video mentions. We also need to understand China has two Corporate Tax Rates - 25% is the Standard, but it drops to 15% if your business is in China's National Interest, which Carmakers are. That said, we in the West apply all sorts of Tariffs and Subsidies to our Industries that almost all Taxpayers agree deserve greater scrutiny. Not long after the USA bailed out its big three Carmakers I read an article in the (not left leaning) Wall Street Journal explaining how General Motors had become far more proficient at being granted Subsidies and getting Government Grants than it was at Engineering a quality vehicle. That said, the Beijing Motor Show has just concluded. If you read an article by just about any Western Journalist that attended that show - They all almost universally agree - China itself seems to have too many individual Auto Manufacturers presently. Too many investors and start-ups within China have taken advantage of the Chinese Government Controlled Banks giving away too easy Finance to build enormous Factories. How that factor will play out in the Future is anyone's guess
If it makes them build factories closer, it's a win. Less ship traffic, and training/experience for the local workforce in EV manufacturing. Local manufacturers are too profit-driven to be competitive, they would just pocket subsidies.
Also using slave workers, pay other workers fair, stop turning their land into toxic dump, stop dumping all trash into rivers and oceans. Everyone can cut costs by half when labor and environmental protection laws are non existent. Japanese won the car market 50 years ago by innovation, not by cutting corners.
Until the currencies reach parity then of course there's going to be tariffs. Exchange rates are a blight on the planet and reduce the illusion of fairness to nothing, but people somehow never question it.
A big difference between Japan and China is that that Japan generally operates within the rules of law while China operates within the rules of Darwin with President Shi at the top of the food chain. I have no problem with 1 to 1 reciprocal trade agreements that no longer treat China as a developing nation despite its persistently large peasant population. However, I’m no more inclined to give my money to China than I am to give it to Elon Musk.
These tariffs only makes sense if you don't intend to export anything to the party you're aiming to hurt. The winning formula is to be better at what you do and invent technology further.
makes no difference..China will steal it no matter what you do. China EV's are mostly paid for by the CCP so they can undercut any local companies. (This channel is getting worryingly pro china)
That only works if you have equal playing field on both sides. In case of EU, we have to import all the raw materials. In case of China the state subsidizes production and artificially keeps workers wages low. For the first bullet it's just tough luck... For the second it's a lot harder to convince democratic voters (of which there is more of us with non working tumors instead of active heads on our neck) to give out a lot of state subsidies (that's how for e.g. Germany kickstarted the entire solar panel market and then got taken over by China...). So your logic doesn't sound like a sensible stance but I could be wrong and am missing something?
@@DerDoMeN if people in Europe didn't protest against all mines we could get a lot of the raw material without the involvement of China. With our tariffs we will only get less business for our exporting companies.
@@LennartMakinen Of that I have no doubt :) But then the fancy "look how eco friendly we are compared to others" stats would probably go down the drain pretty fast :)
Tariffs walls only prolong the inevitable. Your analysis is spot on. Something else to conside is that the world is more than just Europe and US. The rest of the world doesn't have issues with Chinese cars by and large, even Western allies like Australia and Japan doesn't block Chinese EVs. Shielding your own market doesnt make your automakers more competitive, it does the opposite.
Governments have a tendency towards kneejerk reactions, instead of keeping tabs on revolutionary technology and planning in advance of it's introduction. Tariff will only hurt the buyers and inevitable progress that will happen one way or another.
China is used as a panic filled scapegoat to pull in support for fascists. It is not hard calculation to make. Tariffs is best they can do. Said that, governments need to be more honest about their own efforts as well. They got caught sleeping at the wheel. Not wanting to show any favoritism (no, we can't support electric cars because Fox News say it is bad) now cost them way more.
the environmental impact of battery and car manufactiring in Hungary is already enormous . the economical impact is also a disaster as chinese brings their own people, even their own food supply and toilet paper. so getting chinese in your country no good to anyone exept corrupt politicians
If any of the Western countries were even remotely serious about EV adoption there would be no tariffs. At the same time the US president announced the 100% tariffs. BYD was offering a small EV for around $12,000. A lot of Americans would have bought these. First car for teen drivers, college students etc. The EV uptake would have skyrocketed. Instead because of the protectionist policy. Tesla discontinued one of its lower cost models and raised prices on others.
Your mention of the Japanese auto industry reminded of the Toyota Production System ( renamed by an American businessman as Lean Production ) that is now widely used in manufacturing, services and in software - my field. The west should be spending a lot of time and money learning what exactly the Chinese have thought out to make their industries so competitive. And replicate it at home. It's not coincidence that western vehicle industries seem so stodgy.
Perhaps the difference is that manufacturing in China is engineer and scientist lead while the west has MBA leadership whose management techniques are basically outsource cut and dominate to boost share price and bonuses with no regard to innovation and improvement
Western nations know exactly what needs to be done in order to be competitive to China. Abolition of the social security and paid vacations, introduction of 60 hour work weeks for the blue collars and liberal use of the overseas slave labor. However, nowadays it would be considered inhumane, hence the tariffs.
China is trying to get out of their self inflicted (eg. property bubble) economic downturn by exporting more stuff. At the same time are chinese employees underpaid in international comparison. China needs to raise wages in order to stimulate internal growth instead of export dumping.
Xi Jinping doesn't believe in economics based on consumer spending, like in the west. It's a communist thing. So China focuses on exports to support their economy. So far it's worked, but it will be their doom in the long run.
BYD has sold a bunch of electric buses into the Canadian market and there has been talks between the Canadian Government and BYD about setting up manufacturing facility in Canada. I think the USA's 100% tariff is moronic - mind you we have a moron waiting in the wings. If I could buy a BYD car now I would seriously consider it. I am looking forward to the Everything Electric Show in Vancouver this September.
I made the trek last September from Ottawa ON to Vancouver BC for the then named "FullyChargedLive" and it was great! Unfortunately the budget doesn't allow for a return trip this year but I hear its going to be almost double the size of last years event. Have a great time.
BYD HAS a plant in Canada and California I believe for BUSSES and commercial trucks and has notified the Canadian government of there intent to sell EV cars in Canada and there are pics going around of a BYD ATTO 3 in Canada with MFG plates
It is so tremendously stupid to protect domestic auto-industries when the need for cheap EVs is so critical to achieve net-zero. These tariffs against China do nothing but line the pockets of those who work for the auto-industry at the cost of both consumers (through higher prices on cars), down-stream producers, and the climate. Not only is it stupid, it is hypocritical since, as you mentioned, these countries are guilty of the exact same thing they accuse China of: government assistance and unfair tariffs. Whereas free trade will help the most amount of people and certainly the climate, instead regressing to protectionism is nothing less than cronyism and possibly xenophobia.
Very frustrating. Europe and others should have invested the same way the Chinese government did. China have gone from having the worst EV’s to some of the best right now, and we can’t get our hands on them thanks to crazy import tariffs. Fell in love with the Zeekr 007, no chance now. Even once it gets its EU Certification, how can I afford 29% import duty. Instead I have to find another EU model which is no where near as good. Consumers are going to suffer.
We in the USA flew our engineers to china to train them. In return we lost our jobs. I watched it happen. The china fed kept the yuan price low by buying dollars and the china workers made about 1/20th what a usa worker made. Im sure this was good for shareholder value since thats all that matters to usa companies.
Also the start of the China industrial revolution was economically boosted by western investers who were getting 8+ percent returns on Chinese investments rather than accepting the 5 ish % returns for western investments.
No man, China generates far more engineers than the USA and that's why there is 11 times more high speed rail in China than in Japan and it is far more stable because it's higher quality. Stable enough to balance a coin at over 300kmh. The other reason why the US dollar is failing is because of debt and dedollarization so you can't keep printing money leading to inflation by ongoing wars. Plus since you won't tax the rich and have also scrrwed the people enough. You borrow leading to debt. Refund schools and funding the rich. You guys lost your jobs not because of China. But because of your corruption and legalized lobbying. Freedom for the rich. Also the racism in the USA has led to 80% of Chinese returning to China rather than staying in THE US.
@@waltermcphee3787 Chinas industrial revolution isn't because of western investment. It is because of planning by the CPC and planning of infrastructure and logistics which doesn't exist in India. If western investments really worked to such and extent, why not india.? The success in China is because of internal guidance not because of the west because the west is focused on capital only. That why there is the rust belt in the USA and everything is financialized. China kept it's industries supporting all it's other industries and supply chain to makes everything leading to little to no places for the west to exploit in the supply chain. The only reason China airplane industry to not fully complete yet is because of being certified requiring certain port so is only a stepping stone for China before everything is domestically made. US and every other country isn't close.
Norway has a 10% import tariff on electric vehicles from China and 25% VAT above 600,000 NOK (approx. 60,000 €). This lack of VAT below 600,000 NOK combined with several other benefits has boosted Norwegian EV adoption. Especially since Diesel and Petrol vehicles, have emission based fees, an increased weight tax, and VAT is applied from 0 NOK.
I think it was a very good idea from the finance minister Trygve Slagsvold Vedum not to hike the tariffs, to continue EV affordability in Norway.
VAT (25%) is for every NOK above 500K (not .600K). There is also an additional weight tax of about €1 for every kg over 500kg. Yes, yes. I'm a stickler for detail.
Easier for Norway, that do not have a domestic car manufacturing industry to protect... That is what is (sadly) mostly all about in the EU and the US.
@@statsmad2812this is why the US and EU should just copy China in terms of making them partner and manufacture locally.
@@statsmad2812if they can’t compete they don’t deserve to be bailed out!
@@humphreybradley3060 On the economics, China is subsidizing their EV companies, which is the economic equivalent of a bail out. Tariffs should be applied to compensate for those subsidies to allow the free market to work.
There is also the national security consideration. Energy and transportation are critical industries for the rest of the economy to function. If China behaves like Russia (they are buddies after all) and slows access to batteries or new vehicles should there be a war, such as over Taiwan's independence, reliance on China for these industries is a systemic threat to the economy that China could exploit.
Can we admit that the invisible hand was never invisible?
Invisible hand is whining after getting a slap on the wrist.
Ah! The invisible hand never picks up the check....
The invisible hand is the one that steals your wallet leaving you wondering WTH happened.
_Angry liberal noises_
The invisible hand only has a thumb and two fingers.
Dave's read of that spicy comment was fantastic!
Agreed, I didn't know how much I needed to hear him say that 😂
Hilarious😂
Dave, you are such a pleasure to visit with. All your episodes are so obviously well researched and have terrific graphics. Keep up the good work.
Crystal in Canada 🇨🇦
Well said.
Canada currently has a 300% import tariff against Chinese solar imports. Its been in place since the start of the Harper era. The only company sort of exempt from that is "Canadian Solar" Which despite its name? Is a Chinese company, who just happened to have a couple Canadian investors who greased the skids so they only pay 85% tariff on the cells they import. If that tariff were dropped? You would be buying 400 watt solar panels for $120. 30% less than that if you were buying it by the pallet.
@@shawnr771 Thanks, Shawn! It's a pleasure to see you here! 👧
@@davefroman4700 Thank you Dave ~ I didn't know that. I'm going to look into it and vote accordingly. 🗳
Many thanks @CrystalAbrahams I appreciate your support
11:15 '...argue that the focus should not be on trying to keep Chinese EV makers out of western markets like king Canute trying to push back the tide, but instead lawmakers should be constructing policy frameworks in which western nations can allow Chinese EV sales *but only when manufacturing facilities are built and operated locally in **_joint partnerships_** with western automakers.'*
exactly! that is probably the only way to make this work for us. otherwise, the folly and hubris of western automakers which were too successful in lobbying their governments to delay pushing EV as the new standard in favour of extending life for combustion engines will slowly lose ground and phase out of being relevant in the coming years with all the sorrow associated.
You know that 'Canute' story is incorrect, right?
So.
Yes, that strikes me as the most important part of the video as well. We shouldn't just let them sell EVs here, we should get them to build EVs here and then sell them. It's the smartest course.
Nonsense, no western carmaker want to work in joint ventures outside China, because even inside China, they hate it and try to get out of it, either buying the partner out or leaving the country...
Bottom line is, if you don't understand, what is really going on in China, economically and politically, you have no clue what the problem really is, and how to solve it...
So don't sell your stuffs to China then. You want that ???
As long as it is under China's supervision!!!!
Someone actually called you that, Dave? Nasty! I opine that we have put ourselves at a disadvantage with China simply by outsourcing our manufacturing there decades ago so that corporate bosses could put more mammon in their pockets by paying workers overseas only a rice bowl per day. Now we complain? Pffft. Yes, I remember when consumers turned up their noses with Japanese cars, yet eventually their quality improved and won us over. The irony is that Chinese EVs are already on a par with, if not better than, anything we produce. And I would say that what's coming out of South Korea is similar (yes, I'm biased with my EV). Well… as I've said many times, I understand when countries want to protect and bolster their own manufacturing, but with the climate crisis growing exponentially worse every day, we need "all hands on deck" to get rid of tailpipes worldwide and accelerate the transition to renewable energy ASAP. If some of those "hands" are Chinese… so be it. We have NO time to lose at this point!
Cue the pe'trolls!
A few random thoughts: focus on vehicle to grid application, focus on stable grids, winter conditions, recycling. Until then I drive my 1984 V8 diesel here in the northern prairies...
I dispute that we have no time to lose, at least in Australia, until we remove coal as our major night time electricity generation method, any advantages of running an EV for the sake of the environment is pretty quickly cancelled out. Even if we completely removed all co2 emissions from vehicles overnight, it would still only represent about 6% of the savings we require to get to net zero. EVs will be the future eventually but without a clean way to produce the electricity to run them, they should not be a priority.
@@isaac827The March 2024 reports on Australian energy production show renewables is at 39% and growing. It does show too much reliance on coal but that seems to be reducing. You also have great opportunities for home solar with battery backup for both day and nighttime charging. If solar works in the UK, and it does despite what some on you tube might say, (I’m getting around 20 - 22kW per day at the moment) it should work well in Australia.
@@isaac827 Dispute away.
The reason the American,s and Europeans are far behind china in ev,s is not because of outsourcing. They all knew when china began development of electric cars and they should have done the same back then. The Toyota Prius and Nissan Leaf was already pointing in that direction. All they needed to do was continue from that headstart which they already had over china.
In the US, the politicians say that tariffs are for the protection of workers. What they actually mean is that they want to protect American profits.
The UAW is arguably one of the strongest unions in the country with immense influence in a swing state. It is about workers but a small set of workers.
I suspect that politicians in the US like Marco Rubio are pushing green protectionism in order to protect the fossil fuel industry from ever cheaper green technology.
Both anyway, however it might slow down innovation, but it could also ensure that the US car manufacturers have enough profit to develop electric vehicles and it helps to control the trade deficit anyway. However the trade deficit is not that important for the US since it issues the reserve currency, namely the USD.
and, ultimately, the consumer pays that tariff, NOT the company manufacturing the good.
@@100c0cit really isn't. As a former dealership technician it REALLY isn't. It's about the largest contributing businesses. Not the technicians on the floor and in the field.
Dave: It is pretty clear that US and European tariff would not stop Chinese EV. Your historical reference to the rise of Japanese auto industry is fantastic. Your suggestion to let Chinese makers build EV in the US and Europe is spot on. "If you can't beat them, join them".
If only regular Sedans or Hatchbacks would be produced, not those ridiculous SUVs and crossovers 🤷♀️🌷
Imagine if China built a solid, reliable, easy to maintain pick up truck that was inexpensive?
@@leftcoaster67 fuck those trucks too
again tariffs and NO tariff restrictions "allow" the makers to drop lower profit models and ONLY focus on high profit LARGE SUVS
every other market has healthy competition all through the price spectrum / car size - even pickups and cargo vans come in MANY sizes that the USA never sees
Don't forget estate cars. You know, for people who actually need a proper big car that can store a lot of stuff in it, while using drastically less fuel/electricity than an SUV
I agree. This obsession with SUVs is baffling to me. Horrible looking boxes on wheels! For me, the most important things in any car I wish to own are: 1. How well does it handle on the road. 2. Is the styling pleasant to my eyes. 3. Is the price reasonable. 4. Is it economical
Small correction: The BYD plant in Hungary isn't just being planned, it is already being actively built. I go by the construction site each day to work, and it's actually shocking how fast it's progressing each day. Construction projects here are usually painfully slow, a stark contrast to how this plant is progressing. I work in industrial automation actually, and my company might actually work there on some projects as sub contractors.
Not Chinese construction. They mean business
Two years into owning an MG5 LR - it’s a great car, definitely a bargain when I bought it. Adding 38% to the price - if SAIC decide to pass it on to consumers - would put the price on a par with European equivalents - if they existed. No one else is making an EV estate / brake.
Things have moved on since you bought your MG. BMW, Peugeot, Porsche, Vauxhall and VW all have estate car offerings.
Another commentor that doesn't understand that the sale price of the car doesn't have to go up by 38% with 38% taxes. They sell the car for 20k in China and sell it for 30k before VAT over here. The 38% tax is only so high because SAIC refused to cooperate with the EU, by not showing their supplier prices. With the tax they drop from 10k to still 2,4k extra profit per car, without raising the sell price by a cent. They still make more profit by selling the car over here than directly in China. But the 7500€ tax compensates the money the Chinese state pushes into the industry to push all other countries out of the competition.
@@Psi-Storm I literally wrote “…if SAIC decide to pass it on to consumers…”!!!
@@Psi-Stormdo you know the EU also ask them to provide with the technical component and chemistry behind ? This is clearly too much.
Read two sides of the story not just from the typical European media.
@@Psi-Stormbro, do you know the cost of the logistics, dealer agent commission etc ?
BYD and MG are doing really well in Australia, and the number of Chinese brands coming down under is increasing rapidly. With some now manufacturing in Thailand, this will increase rapidly. Cheers
Labor Government. Next they will be asking the CCP to build our overdue Hunter Class Frigates and our Nuclear Subs.
Sure they will fall apart in a few years. But it will be cheaper and better quality than building them in Australia. 🙄
How can we get a piece of the pie in Australia?Ask for a Chinese company such as Zeekr to produce here,ask Chinese car companies to make investments in our critical mineral mining and processing,ask for CATL to produce batteries here.I don’t know the answer but ponder the questions regularly.
@@robertpatterson4185Instead we have asked China to do the opposite , I wonder why ??? Did the recent 'forced sell off' of Northern Minerals shares ring a bell ??? These days , "national securities" dictates everything ! For instance , TikTok
@@robertpatterson4185keep pondering , I'm sure you will find the answer coz my previous responses have been deleted by YT . Apparently it's a sensitive topic here in the land down under as well , like in the US. Hint: Northern Minerals, TikTok
@@jimt2762 I think it’s different with America as they have a car industry to protect.We haven’t got one but need to ensure we allow car imports providing we get something in return.The Law of comparative advantage doesn’t work if a country heavily subsidies their industries.
In the USA the politics of this is intense and where I would opine most of the problem lies. We have embraced globalization for a few decades now. The phase change of moving to EVs condemns all that came before as obsolete. The Chinese wisely picked this moment. Globalization in combination with a new industry caught USA OEMs flat-footed in their mindset of hoping this will just go away. Our local spin meisters are doing their best to encourage hybrids as the "real solution" with, it seems, some success recently, despite it being an already dead narrative. This all combines into an even worse long term outlook for Ford, GM and Stellantis. The longer they wait, the more difficult it will be to compete. They are already at a big disadvantage due to raw materials supply chains. IRA notwithstanding, it is impossible to compete at the materials level with China given our many environmental and social welfare laws. Even if the robotics revolution mostly eliminates UAW workers, our OEMs will still be at a disadvantage due to these materials. Seems like quite the conundrum. I doubt that any form of free trade will preserve either Ford or GM unless they moved manufacturing to some free trade country for export to the USA. China is already lost to legacy OEMs, Germany included, because the Chinese are moving to fully electric. Our local spin doctoring is of no use in China, so the long term strategy is really only about USA sales. All we truly have is Tesla and Rivian (Sorry Lucid guys. I think they are walking dead.) Americans are currently on the hate Tesla / Musk bandwagon, so we have an irony here that the most likely long term automotive success is a company we want to fail. Heh.
Musk’s extreme political ideology is alienating him from both progressive and centrists who are the prime market for electric vehicles. The far right and deeply conservative are slowly modifying their opinion in favour of Musk personally but are ideologically opposed to EVs. Musk has an uphill battle to win them over.
Personally we bought a Tesla in 2019 here in Australia and am very happy with the car. In the medium term we would love to replace our ICE car with a second EV as finances allow but it is looking increasingly unlikely that this will be a Tesla.
@@robsengahay5614 In the end, people buy cars and other goods base on the best price and quality, not on the politics or antics of the company CEO's. Left wing activist like to push the narrative that Tesla is losing sales due to Musk, but have no evidence to support their claims. All EV sales are down or flat currently. Tesla is doing better than most.
@robsengahay5614 not a bad assessment, but from experience of dealing (or not) with the mafia-like strategy that threatens your kids if you are serious enough to retaliate for threats against your person..
Frustrated Rage is all global.
@@robsengahay5614 Ideology doesn't seem to have any bounds when looking at the world stage or one's local milieu. Media takes things and sometimes misrepresents them and sometimes builds a bonfire where there was only a lit match. As such, I personally try to stay away from assessing, let alone commenting, on any ideology supposedly expressed by any public figure, because I have no access whatsoever to the various underlying truths. The chameleonesque nature of all public figures is so complete these days that it is well nigh impossible to know their true beliefs, if in fact true belief actually even exists anymore. In the USA I can't begin to assess what Harris or Trump actually think. This has accomplished an unprecedented voter apathy that only gets worse with time. As far as Musk goes, I couldn't care less what he believes as long as he leads companies whose products or services make the world a better place. Gates, Bezos, Zuck, Ellison, Bara, on and on, can all be annoying if we choose to pay attention. Waste of time to pay attention.
@@robsengahay5614 tesla wouldnt even exist without all the government tax rebates to people who bought them.
We rented an MG4 in the UK this summer, for three weeks. It was OUTSTANDING. The only real gripes I had: the LKA is too aggressive; there could be just a smidgeon more space for the driver's left foot; and the electric windows are too fast (getting a half-inch gap was a bit of a game of chance). Otherwise, the car blew me away. So fast -- really fast, I kept it in Eco mode! -- smooth, precise, agile, great regen braking; and great fast charging for long trips. We own two EVs here in the US -- a 2016 VW e-Golf and a 2022 Hyundai Kona Electric -- and they are both great. The MG4 was a step up (apart from the lack of lane centering, something the Kona does very well, tho ours doesn't have adaptive cruise, no biggie).
I agree with all you have said about the bad long term consequences of tariffs Dave.
The short term consequences are very simple. For 10 years we have been waiting for cheaper EVs. Now they have arrived, now we have tariffs. Consumers, you can keep on waiting.
Enforcing partnerships, like China did years ago.
Yep. Thats the way! ... Not block the tide, but deal with it. 👍
Trump stated at a rally "he welcomes Chines car makers AS LONG as they set up factories in the USA"
@@jasonriddell Still waiting for Foxconn to do something in WI...
China also forced foreign EV battery makers to waive their IPR to access their EV market; then created gov't approved "whitelist" that excluded all foreign battery makers from accessing their subsidies and local market. No kidding.
We're 🇺🇸 going to do more than just block the tide.
@@jasonriddellthat would never happen, that's nonsense.
I haven't seen your other videos yet, so I don't know why anyone would attack you.
You've neither said anything pro- nor anti- China in any way.
I gave you a thumbs up for the video.
Yes, well, sad thing is how many people just can’t go thru a day without being bitching shit heads!
@@TheLosamatic Agree 👍
US car companies need to get on board the green revolution, instead of keeping our EV choices limited, and keeping EV prices for American made cars out of reach for most people.
They are, but one party is fighting EV tooth and nail. The one that gets millions in PAC donations from corporations.
@thetalkingbear the oil and gas industries dump so much money into American politics. The democrats rammed the inflation reduction act through without a single republican vote. Now, republican states have a lot of green jobs popping up. It will be interesting over the next few decades as more and more Americans work in green jobs
@@thetalkingbear well that would be both parties then.
You do realize the electricity that charges your Tesla comes primarily from coal, gas, oil? Maybe when we develop a non polluting battery that can store electric generated by PV and windmills we can start talking a phase over away from IC.
@@billycarr7446 you realize most people who can afford a Tesla either chose the renewable energy option that comes from solar and wind or have solar themselves right?
We knew this was coming, but were unable to agree on how to compete. We just dont react until the recognition is unavoidable. Tarrifs can give US companies time to breathe, but it isnt a solution. I liked your idea about making foreign companies partner 50% with US companies.
I think that was a Chinese policy for domestic marketing.
Plus the loss of any intellectual property that would exist.
We're not doing competition. This has been stated multiple times. The United States is not going to coexist in the world where they're not number one. I'm telling you right now dude, it's going to be some s***.
Japan is a democracy and an Ally
Tariffs are in effect a tax on domestic consumers. causing inflationary pressures. Not what you want. It also protects industrial dinosaurs producing substandard & expensive stuff.
The alternative may be accepting the destruction of your domestic industry by a foreign government providing subsidies to their manufacturers.
It isn't black & white
The British motorbike industry and TV manufacturing were arguably destroyed by subsidised products from Japan. Many jobs were lost in the UK, gained in Japan, and we all got cheaper TVs and better bikes for a while at least
I'd personally welcome BYD to open a factory here in Canada along with the models they are introducing to our market in the next few months... They'll only not be in the USA at this point soon enough and I have a feeling even that will change... Especially since labor costs in factories will have dropped significantly with automation doing more and more tasks by the day... More money per worker hopefully but probably less overall workers...
Canadian government is proposing 100% tariffs to Chinese EVs as well. Talk about blind sided and not see their "green" energy transition that will benefit everyone.
"The Chinese government heavily subsidizes companies in the fields of electromobility, rolling stock and wind power, and makes the payment of subsidies conditional on production in China" according to April 2024 Kiel Policy Brief, 'Foul Play? On the Scale and Scope of Industrial Subsidies in China'. BYD mentioned by name throughout the brief as a major Chinese recipient of 'only Chinese production conditional subsidy'.
@@ChoadOnTheHill Western counterparts subsidize their industries with tax payers money unlike China's tax toward company's profits to fund their subsidize for economic growth.
Chinese people who also speak a decent amount of English will point out one significant issue with BYD. They are the most popular Chinese brand that has been catching fire merely being parked - not running or plugged in - and they say that BYD stands for Burn You Down.
@@petenielsen6683 Nice try. Same applies to all EVs with lithium ion batteries then?
Superb explanation of where we're at
Don't forget the strategic necessity of keeping manufacturing capacity in the EU.
Great work and many thanks. The collective comments and your essay paints a comprehensive picture - sorry you should have added more context. We put ourselves into this position and should take responsibility BUT most countries should maintain a strong industrial base. Having China set up shop in the US is probably necessary but the US will need to maintain pretty tight supervision of them.
I think a better comparison than the one with Japanese automakers is solar panels after the 2008 recession: The US invested heavily in companies like Solyndra only to be out-subsised by China and the company went bankrupt and it became a political talking point against the administration. Countries like the US won't want to transition to Green technologies if it further erodes their manufacturing sector and areas where manufacturing was a big part of the economy. While having a just transition may mean a slower transition, I think it's a more sustained transition.
A "just transition"? What the hell does that even mean?
There's exactly one valid reason for a healthy, developed economy to ever impose tariffs or other trade restrictions. Foreign policy. To punish, or threaten to punish, a government for its bad behavior, its actions or intentions against your national interest. This may extend to a moral stand, e.g., on the treatment of the Uighur population. But trade restrictions _for economic reasons_ are just stupid, full stop. You may think you're "protecting local manufacturing," but the consumers you are taxing _far_ outnumber the capitalists you are protecting. (And sometimes, as with those Trump/Biden steel and aluminum tariffs, you harm not just consumers but _other businesses_.)
So what if China "unfairly" subsidizes an industry so they can sell things to the west for cheap? Think about what is really going on: _the Chinese government is, for some reason, choosing to subsidize my lifestyle._ Why should I refuse this gift? Why should anyone? We should be encouraging them to do more of it. It's a little unfair _to the Chinese people,_ but it's all upside for the western consumer.
Interesting that you mention Japan. Toyota was one of the first to develop a hybrid car (the Prius-a HEV) long before anyone else explored this good gas saving technology. But they didn't seem to improve on this since very few of Toyota's vehicles are PHEV and Toyota seems to be falling behind many other manufacturers. It seems that car manufactures who first start new technology don't seem to transfer that technology to newer models while the competition that takes it a step further capture the market.
Diner's Club, Kodak, Nokia, Blackberry... all formerly leaders in their respective industries, now sidelined because they failed to keep up. Toyota and Honda seem to be headed on a similar path.
Toyota is already ahead of the pack. The H2 economy is coming.
@@malachiteofmethuselah9713 2005 called. They want their technology back.
@@incognitotorpedo42 pfft.... I met Stan Meijer.... but that being said, most of heavy industry has H2 hybrids on display this year. ;)
Yep. First digital camera I used was Kodak c. 1997. It saved files to an on board floppy disc. The market was theirs for the taking, but nah...
Japan and China...Quite different? 'In a March 2020 interview with Irish Independent, Chang said that there had been "many, many attempts" for a screen adaptation of Wild Swans but that "distributors are fearful of getting on the wrong side of the powers that be in China."' Maybe if they put tariffs on cinema tickets they could keep control of the situation?
Reciprocated conditions. Forced joint ventures, government allowed to set up a liaison department, etc. If it is fair one way it is fair the other.
Yepp, see how they like it...
I think the difference between China and the Japanese invasion a vehicle and Manufacturing is that Japan was a very pro-western friendly nation. Meanwhile China on the other hand is very much a bully in Southeast Asia even being violent physically two countries and organizations that do not agree with them politically.
I am not aware of at any point unless somebody wants to enlighten me the Japanese attacking shipping in the 70s 80s or 90s. So while the economic Factor certainly makes sense to not have heavy tariffs, the Chinese government is heavily connected to these entities, and in my mind the West would be very much funding human rights abuses and violence towards many in the Southeast Asian area which will undoubtedly affect us farther down the road.
Absolutely. I am not personally interested in funding Papa Xi's upcoming hegemonic wars with the Phillippines over the South China Seas, Vietnam over the Spratly Island, or Japan over the Senkaku Islands.
The major difference is that Japan was never run by a communist government and China is trying to spread its version of communism through loans favorable only to the Chinese Communist Party. And it looks like you have already mentioned in your comment another very good reason not to do business with the CCP. It simply does not value human life.
Always fascinating by the idea that US project themselves as the guardian of human right. After seeing foreign war usage of chemical weapons in Vietnam, illegal invade Iraq. Domestically highest incarceration rate in the world and total ban on female reproductive right. The Cognitive dissonance level is off the chart
In other words China ain't your little dog. And you have a problem with that.😅😂
Is Japan surrounded by adversary bases?
One should be careful with how one use the "human rights abuses" term, cause the west supports and funds most of the countries that actually commit those types of crimes. The world have seen how the western leadership pretends not to see the atrocities going on in Palestine while going hard on China for the debunked Xinjiang camps and whatnot.
Yesterday, I took delivery of a 1-year old Mercedes EQB250, a 7-seater SUV, which has a ‘realistic range’ of 450km.
New price for this (in my view fabulous) car was ¥9.8M. With all the extras I got, it’d be ¥11M.
I paid exactly ¥5M.
Great for me, but really worrying for the market.
The dealer says they have dozens and dozens of similar EV deals, 50% drop in value in just a year.
Why is this happening? I hear it’s happening in other countries too.
Dave, I think you should do a segment about this.
This video explains part of why that is happening.
The problem wit EV is tat they updated really fast in just few months and you always want the lattest model.
@@yulusleonard985 you’re probably right. A bit like with mobile phones 20 years ago.
For me, though, it’s a scream buy; a year old luxury Mercedes SUV, with a range of 450km, for less than $30,000? Who could pass on a deal like that?
Cause Mercedes EVs are bassiclly trash here in China，you pay mainly for the brand，and got much lower setups and overall quality than other local brand EVs like BYD. Not worth the money so to speak.
@@simonrado4568 It has great spec, drives like a dream and actually gives you the range it says it does. Do you own one? No? Seems you’ve bought into the usual Chinese propaganda.
The problem is not the Chinese, but the cars... However to not upset domestic workers, and the pro-car lobby, politicians feel compelled to blame the Chinese.
I tried suggesting an idea to Mark Harper when he was transport secretary (before the election), but he must of seen through my ruse as he rejected it in favour of "free market principles".
The West heavily subsidizes its industry, just like China but for different reasons. Example: Oklahoma gave tax breaks to oil & gas companies in the state, reducing education funding to help fill the budget gap, on the threat that the petro companies would take their business elsewhere if they didn't get the tax cut. 🤔 My point is: Capitalism in the West fails compared to Capitalism in China, the East in general, because the fundamental goal is different. In the West the primary goal is to enrich corporations and their shareholders while in the East it's to advance the nation first, and companies second.
If by nation you mean the elite members of the CCP.
If by advance the nation you mean the elite members of the CCP. As they crack down on any form of even mild dissent and the average citizen lives a life of toiling 996 while the standard of living stagnates.
That kind of assumes the Chinese government means well, but how deeper one digs in to it, how more it seems to also aim at enriching the people at the top. Rampant corruption basically, so you're trading one kind of evil for another, biggest difference being Chinese style goes out of its way to try and deceive and hide how big the problem is, while companies are at least honest about their goals.
It's not really a way out of the problems of the green cycle as such sadly. Though it will be interesting if we do find a way to escape it one day.
the west every little area is "competing" with every other area places like CHINA view the total as a whole and plan that way AND look 25+ years into the future NOT next quarter OR election
And N/S Dakota is basically a landlocked Cayman Islands for wealth tax evasion
I love these videos, thank you Dave. Human rights are a big issue for some of us consumers: if our Chinese-branded cars were built in the EU then we would at least be assured that EU-based factory employees enjoyed some human rights safeguards.
This is all "carrot" and no "stick" for US manufacturers
yes, they are all spoiled rotten literally.
I worked in an establishment some time ago where they beat us with the carrot.
King Canute reference +1.
I agree with you a hundred percent on this one. The best course for western governments is to let the Chinese EVs in, provided they're mostly manufactured here by western workers. It's like you said, the Chinese let Western automakers in under a similar scheme, so we might as well do the same thing with them.
Trying to keep products out of your domestic market with tariffs, when they're both more economical and better targeted to consumers than your local products, is a self defeating enterprise. Is it fair competition? Probably not. But our domestic automakers need to learn to compete.
The European Motor industry has been dragging its heels, seems unable & completely unwilling to adapt to the much needed reality of electrification of transport, trying & succeeding in delaying the end of fossil fuel vehicle production with little or no regard the European citizens Air Quality, Health & Well Being we are still counting the Deaths from the DIEselGate debacle! They don't deserve our support anymore let them go bust they have no regard for me or my fellow citizens
The highly skilled workforce in EU Motor industry is so badly needed in other more urgent climate adaption jobs & industries, let's not waste there expertise & talent on producing obsolete socially destructive poisoning machines!
I won't be sorry to see the demise of the European motor industry the Chinese are just more ambitious our European Investment Bank (EIB) should of invested more in the electrification of transport like the Chinese did, a lost opportunity & why our industrial policy is obsolete & irrelevant.
To much time & money was wasted on Hydrogen & E-Fuel for the fossil fuel industry to have a replacement commodity so European Governments could eventually tax as a replacement for fuel duty something intensely lobbied for by vested interests
You know that many european car companies make their cars in China, therefore specifically german ones were against the motion and France supported the toll hikes. Indeed this might damage the EU-China relationship.
What are you talking about? EU car industry sell quite a lot of EV cars themselves.
@@Quickshot0 They have been delaying things are OP said
@@MonoBrawI I would love the Europeans to be world leaders in Electric Aviation and that our priority should be retrofitting our housing stock, that desperately needs modernizing, every home should have sufficient insulation, solar panels and batteries, the European grid is in desperate need of updating as well, so much work to do, not enough workers with so many overdue to retire in the coming years.
@@paulc6766 Not really the impression I got, Volkswagen basically seems to have gone fairly extensively in to electric. Creating electric vehicle variant of all their main lines.
Admittedly partially a reaction after the diesel scandal they got in to, but never the less they seemed to have stuck money by the tens of billions in to that effort. And they have quite substantial electric production capacity now I thought.
I kind of think this is missing an aspect really of why things like this are happening. If it were just economic competition your point is pretty valid. How ever quite a bit of this is also driven by geostrategic military thinking.
In which case being to dependent on China and having them being able to cut off the production of vital military goods would be considered an unacceptable risk. Just like at the same moment they try to strange China of strategic goods like advanced semiconductor production.
So China responding with counter tariffs that will drive further Western industry out? They'd probably consider that a useful feature, rather then a drawback. It would after all reduce their vulnerability to China.
Ultimately in a sense this is all happening to such an extent because China failed to convince for instance the USA that they have no ill intent. With out that while no doubt the USA would still do things, it would probably be far less severe.
Having said that, the idea of making Chinese companies setup together with Western companies in local manufacturing could presumably help substantially in alleviating this problem as well. So that's certainly an option to keep in mind I guess.
*Summary*
*China's EV Strategy:*
* *(**2:21**)* China identified the automotive industry as a key growth area, heavily subsidizing domestic EV production.
* *(**2:42**)* China strategically focused on EVs knowing they were behind on traditional car technology and sought to decrease reliance on foreign oil.
* *(**2:55**)* As a result, Chinese companies are now global leaders in EV technology, production costs, and battery technology.
*Western Response and its Potential Issues:*
* *(**3:41**)* The US and EU applied hefty import tariffs on Chinese EVs, citing unfair government subsidies.
* *(**4:55**)* The video argues these tariffs are driven by political motives more than sound economic thinking, similar to how Japanese cars were treated in the 70s & 80s.
* *(**6:23**)* Tariffs are likely ineffective long-term:
* *(**6:23**)* Chinese manufacturers may accept lower profits to gain market share.
* *(**7:40**)* They are already investing heavily in manufacturing outside of China (Spain, Turkey, Mexico, etc.) to circumvent tariffs completely.
*Potential Downside of Tariffs for the West:*
* *(**11:53**)* Consumers lose access to more affordable and potentially better suited EV options (smaller cars favored by younger buyers).
* *(**11:53**)* Chinese retaliation with tariffs on western goods is likely.
* *(**11:59**)* Tariffs may hurt Western companies that source parts from or manufacture in China.
* *(**12:26**)* Slows the overall transition to EVs by propping up Western companies and limiting consumer choice.
*Alternative Approach Suggested:*
* *(**11:13**)* Instead of blocking Chinese EVs, western governments should incentivize joint ventures and local production partnerships between western and Chinese automakers. This is how China gained manufacturing expertise from Western companies in the past.
*In Conclusion:*
The video suggests that attempting to block Chinese EVs through tariffs is a short-sighted and potentially damaging policy. A more collaborative approach focusing on domestic production and partnership could be more beneficial for consumers, the transition to green energy, and long-term economic competitiveness.
I used Google Gemini 1.5 Pro to summarize the transcript.
Cost (if I didn't use the free tier): $0.0650
Time: 24.32 seconds
Input tokens: 15745
Output tokens: 946
Holy cow. I'm beginning to question the wisdom of using Grand Theft Auto as training data for my Generalized AI . . ..
Brilliant as usual, thank you!
It's ironic that some talk about this under the guise of a communist threat while in fact it's the extreme opposite. The reality is that China is using capitalism to beat us at our own game. The only good response is to double down and compete in an open market. The US government as well as all other capitalist countries regularly tip the scales in favour of their own favorite industry with massive subsidies. China is doing the same. They had the foresight to understand which industries (wind, solar, batteries, EVs, etc.) would dominate in the future and focused on those. We should be happy that they are following our example shouldn't we. Instead we focus on fabricated outrage on issues that don't matter an lose focus on the prize.
Well said
They also had the advantage of having slave labor camps to get cheap labor and very lax environmental standards. For a while there all the toxic chemicals they were producing from making solar panels was just getting dumped into the river and the work camps where the people they were trying to "reeducate" were located in the same location. The few times that CEOs of companies in China have expressed concern about some of the stuff their government has done they end up disappearing for a while.
@@pin65371 Ah, the cheap labor exploited labor that the US doesn't use for, say, their tobacco farms every harvest season. I'm glad we haven't stooped to such levels yet.
China produces more steel, EVs, solar panels, and other manufactured goods not because it is particularly more efficient than other countries, but as a result of currency depreciation that makes exports more competitive, interest rate controls on deposits and lending, and a host of direct and indirect subsidies (e.g., minimal environmental regulation, lack of workers' rights, an extremely weak social safety net), along with forced IP transfers, stolen IP, and slave labor. Essentially, China transfers wealth from the household sector (which primarily imports goods and saves within the economy) to the business and government sectors, leaving Chinese citizens too poor to consume much of what they produce or to import goods. This creates the consistently large trade surpluses that China generates, which are then forced onto Western countries. The US and other European economies are finally unwilling to accept this reality.
The IRA and tariffs are a response to China’s market-distorting behavior. While the free market is the optimal solution, because China has skewed the scales, Europe and the US are now doing the same to restore balance. So, no, thank you-the US will not be welcoming our geopolitical rival with open arms.
@@r.r.r.918 The US has been subsidizing the fossil fuel industry for decades, going so far as to pursue massive wars in order to secure the flow of oil at low prices. What China is doing is far less malevolent by comparison. They saw where the world was headed and actually invested while we in the west were busy hugging fossil fuel automakers and its supporting industry to squeeze every little drop of profit out of it as possible.
The "slave labor" excuse has been done to death, wages in China is pretty similar to that of Mexico, yet no massive tariffs are in sight for Mexican goods, nor was there any tariffs on China for years while it was simply the factory for major western companies rather than designing and producing their own stuff, also raking in the profits which no longer ends up in the west.
Why aren't you running things Dave, you talk more sense than most politicians!
There are other factors beyond economy and development. We are funding chinese and they using that money to develop their military... if it were just an economical issue where everyone made money it would be fine but we are funding the army thats might kill us... so no sometimes its better to not grow economically if that meansbure funding an orwelian state that will crush u down the line
China is spending 1.7% of its GDP on the military, this is half that of the US and less than most European countries, including my own, Sweden, which is ramping up military spending to almost 3% of GDP. Stop the fear mongering, China is not coming for us.
Thanks for keeping me up with the ins & outs of trade & of technology.
Here in Belarus, we're flooded with new Chinese brands and cars, some, I have to say, extremely ugly! But they certainly offer good value for money apparently! One word to those of your viewers though Dave is this! We succumbed a year ago, seduced by a great deal on an Exceed LX! Seemed wonderful but then we drove home to the UK and realised what a huge mistake we'd made! The seats were devastatingly uncomfortable 🥵! I mean really, really uncomfortable 😖! So my advice would be, do a long, long test drive if you're thinking of Chinesium! We ditched it for a trusty Jaguar EPace from Poland...... So much better.... And the sting in the tale of this story is that Exceed is the premium brand of Chery, who are partners with.... Jaguar Land Rover!😅
FYI,in china,Exceed LX is a Low-end car😂
Jaguar is premium like BMW and Mercedes it isn't in the category of MG for example, idk exceed brand
Wow I never knew what to think of this but this is really informative!
Excellent analysis.
Cheers
I think what you trying to say is Chevrolet Ford and Chrysler are putting Terrace on because they are the ones that have a problem they’re not a compete in the market. They are a corner of the market anyway possible and if that means putting out an inferior product and having a competition, terrified to death well who loses
Sandy Munro says much the same. Well done
Cheers
Well analyzed and argued.
BYD is making good vehicles. I'd consider buying one.
BYD is making EXCELLENT vehicles. I have one and will never buy a different make.
@nicolasuribestanko it's expensive in Denmark 😢
I really like the seal, it's just out of budget.
Tesla are cheaper than byd in my country
Not according to the average Chinese. BYD stands for Burn You Down to them.
Love your work and Vlogs. Thank you. Keep it up.
In the UK, we've already Lost most of our motor & vehicle manufacturing industry. Because government was unwilling to do what it takes to protect it, or properly support it. And now we have exported most of our, well paid manufacturing Jobs to China & the Far East. We now see what a catastrophic, misguided and shortsighted mistake that was. It's Too late for us, but it's not too late to protect the rest of the European vehicle manufacturing sector. Opposing that is utter madness...
What a clear thinking video! Lives up to the producer's name.
Yes, Import duties and tariffs to protect manufacturers is a major mistake that does NOT support either the consumer nor the environment.
and they are NOT about ether and are there to RPOTECT voting JOBS
Your intro to this video is spot on! I never knew you were a comedian though, great tie of facts & humor 😂👍
Great video! I am in Canada 🇨🇦 and I hope we don’t go the Tarriff route and allow BYD to set up shop in 🇨🇦 with Canadian labour and government regulations.
Dude it's going to go all the way when it comes to the US and China thing. This is no joke. This is not a game. This is the worst thing that could ever be in human history.
I fully stand behind your reasoning. You left out one extra reason why these high tariffs on Chinese EVs are not wise. Europe urgently needs more cheaply priced EVs, since that will accelerate the stalled growth towards green transportation. With the tariffs our proper governments keep EVs artificially expensive, relative to petrol cars, while at the same time pushing towards EVs. This won’t help with lowering inflation. So not only it is bad for the environment and the climate, it is bad for the “middle class” as well, which figure so often in speeches of politicians.
Wonder what the UK will do now that we're fee of the EU? A market of 65 million odd vs 700 million in the EU, Vs Chinese Market of 1.4 billion? We've certainly taken back control. I guess that's why all the current Chinese plants are in countries with free trade agreements with the EU.. Who'd have thought of that. It ofcourse applies to all manufactured goods.
Hearing English RUclipsrs speak of it Brexit was a mistake.
I own a GWM Ora is Australia. It is a great car for the price. Well finished and over-performing where it matters (range).
As an add on comment about the mention Dave made about younger consumers mentioning they would consider a Chinese EV. A number of members from many of the EV clubs here in Canada report that trips abroad (not the US obviously) affords them the opportunity to see/Ride in/Drive make and models we can't get here In Canada.
Many report that the cars (small BYD and MG models in particular) are exactly the vehicles they are looking for. The lesser pricing is an added bonus so we will see when some of them start landing on or shores at whatever price point they end up at.
"Canada is an oil and gas company... I mean, country." Justin Trudeau
Canada's problem is that it is following the ideological crusade of its southern neighbors in trying to decouple from China which has led to it to sink billions betting on the wrong horses like Honda (a well known EV laggard and anti-EV lobbyist), Northvolt, and Stellantis (which has already thrown upon the towel to partner with Leapmotors). If the Chinese come in, those billions will most likely be wasted as BYD/SAIC/Geely/CATL will probably destroy those previous players.
Let the bangers bang on. Thanx for ur diligent studing you share with. Good to hav U around.
The "critical thinking" for tariffs on the CCP is that same thing for Russia. Sanctions. If the CCP invades Taiwan, the West cannot be overly dependent on the ccp.
invading taiwan is a western narrative. China has always stated they'll wait as long as it takes. their economies are already tied together sharing common industries. Factories on each others lands. you don't have to worry about depending. China consumers are rapidly switching to domestic products & tech. government is accelerating derisk from dollar banks, western tech., & companies. intel won't the only one with big layoffs, apple, microsoft, gm, ford, are next. your antiChina campaign is working. they're now switch to buying their own products & techs. who really think ccp will lose the economic war. it is the west that's dependent on the ccp
First it's CPC.
Secondly, Taiwan is not a country and is part of China. Much like HK where the west tried to split from China in the opium war and wreaked a lot of Chinese families.
**Headache/migraine trigger** from slight jiggling of screenshot images. Please fix, thanks. 🙂
China isn’t even communist
they are a dictatorship full of dirty commies
Just found you and now subscribed and liked.
the 'unfair' subsidies
lol
compared to what - US subsidies?
My thought was no tariffs on cheap vehicles (say, < $14,000) , but some rate on more expensive vehicles. In U.S.A., domestic manufacturers like to sell Big vehicles with big prices/profits.
As ever, watching a handy-Brit for 1/4 of an hour is invaluably awesome! Chinese eCars are going to be the choice across the planet… we already own a Nissan Leaf as our run-around-town car and will likely switch to the better efficiency Chinese choice in a year or two!
Very good analysis and solution
Remember when Biden said tariffs only hurt consumers? He sure doesn’t!
Not surprised that this is the video that gets throttled by the algorithm
Whether Chinese, or anything else, my first consideration will be for the workers. I won't buy any vehicle not made in a union shop. If they do start making them here, I'll be supporting the UAW, and boycott until they cave.
Tariffs r necessary part of the political toolkit and an important tool to protect markets against destructive competition. If China would be in the same shoes like USA or EU they would act exactly the same or even worse. China was protecting their gunpowder, porcelain and other unique inventions like crazy behind great wall, so the history would only repeat with the EVs and batteries. On the other hand China has built since early 2000s such an incredible momentum that other competitive markets have to artificially slow China down even it's hurting both sides. Hopefully they won't kill each other until tariffs r finally lifted once everything important in the marketplace is more balanced and stable. In the end it's consumers who should WIN, not politicians.
Another well made vid, thx a lot - very communicative and approachable channel, well done!👍
ICE cars should be subject to 100% tariffs to make up for all the externalities caused by air pollution... BEV's? Tax free! That's all!
18 cents per gallon of the US gas price goes to pay for American roads. EVs are heavier than ICE cars and wear them down faster and until another way is found to make up for the fact that EVs are not buying gas at all a tariff on cars that are paying for the roads is a bad idea.
@@petenielsen6683 EVs will wear down tyres faster, but their increase in mass is unlikely to have any considerable effect on pavement damage.
I’ll say this: lots of local economies in the US faltered after the Big Three kept outsourcing. They’ve shifted to services, but they get a sense that some sense of economic diversification underpinning cultural ‘vibrancy’, or pride, has been lost. Tariffs are supposed to be some signal that these communities are being helped in some way, just as subsidies are meant as signals to stop offshoring-there are cultural dimensions to this, not just economic
WHO PAYS /// YOU pay.
Appreciate the perspective! I suppose the only difference this time is the hostile relationship many countries have with China
It's all really complicated, as this video mentions. We also need to understand China has two Corporate Tax Rates - 25% is the Standard, but it drops to 15% if your business is in China's National Interest, which Carmakers are. That said, we in the West apply all sorts of Tariffs and Subsidies to our Industries that almost all Taxpayers agree deserve greater scrutiny. Not long after the USA bailed out its big three Carmakers I read an article in the (not left leaning) Wall Street Journal explaining how General Motors had become far more proficient at being granted Subsidies and getting Government Grants than it was at Engineering a quality vehicle.
That said, the Beijing Motor Show has just concluded. If you read an article by just about any Western Journalist that attended that show - They all almost universally agree - China itself seems to have too many individual Auto Manufacturers presently. Too many investors and start-ups within China have taken advantage of the Chinese Government Controlled Banks giving away too easy Finance to build enormous Factories. How that factor will play out in the Future is anyone's guess
If it makes them build factories closer, it's a win.
Less ship traffic, and training/experience for the local workforce in EV manufacturing.
Local manufacturers are too profit-driven to be competitive, they would just pocket subsidies.
when china stops stealing IP's and play by the rules then we can talk about lowering tariffs.
"the rules"? The only rule is that the west wins and with "rules" like that, don't expect anyone else to play
Also using slave workers, pay other workers fair, stop turning their land into toxic dump, stop dumping all trash into rivers and oceans.
Everyone can cut costs by half when labor and environmental protection laws are non existent.
Japanese won the car market 50 years ago by innovation, not by cutting corners.
@@Adrian_kal bullshit！you know nothing ！brainwahsed guy
guy，does your country have any EVs which can make Chinese copy u？？
Until the currencies reach parity then of course there's going to be tariffs.
Exchange rates are a blight on the planet and reduce the illusion of fairness to nothing, but people somehow never question it.
A big difference between Japan and China is that that Japan generally operates within the rules of law while China operates within the rules of Darwin with President Shi at the top of the food chain. I have no problem with 1 to 1 reciprocal trade agreements that no longer treat China as a developing nation despite its persistently large peasant population. However, I’m no more inclined to give my money to China than I am to give it to Elon Musk.
Operating within the rules? You mean like the West in G ..Z?
The kids really want a salt water crocodile as a pet, I’m sure everything will be fine
These tariffs only makes sense if you don't intend to export anything to the party you're aiming to hurt.
The winning formula is to be better at what you do and invent technology further.
makes no difference..China will steal it no matter what you do.
China EV's are mostly paid for by the CCP so they can undercut any local companies.
(This channel is getting worryingly pro china)
That only works if you have equal playing field on both sides.
In case of EU, we have to import all the raw materials.
In case of China the state subsidizes production and artificially keeps workers wages low.
For the first bullet it's just tough luck... For the second it's a lot harder to convince democratic voters (of which there is more of us with non working tumors instead of active heads on our neck) to give out a lot of state subsidies (that's how for e.g. Germany kickstarted the entire solar panel market and then got taken over by China...).
So your logic doesn't sound like a sensible stance but I could be wrong and am missing something?
@@DerDoMeN if people in Europe didn't protest against all mines we could get a lot of the raw material without the involvement of China.
With our tariffs we will only get less business for our exporting companies.
@@LennartMakinen Of that I have no doubt :) But then the fancy "look how eco friendly we are compared to others" stats would probably go down the drain pretty fast :)
A level playing field is critical if we want develop our own green industries. So tariffs are needed to avoid a Chinese Green tech monopoly.
My new EV was made with Uighur prison labor, boy did I get a deal!
Tariffs walls only prolong the inevitable. Your analysis is spot on. Something else to conside is that the world is more than just Europe and US. The rest of the world doesn't have issues with Chinese cars by and large, even Western allies like Australia and Japan doesn't block Chinese EVs. Shielding your own market doesnt make your automakers more competitive, it does the opposite.
Governments have a tendency towards kneejerk reactions, instead of keeping tabs on revolutionary technology and planning in advance of it's introduction. Tariff will only hurt the buyers and inevitable progress that will happen one way or another.
the government is ONLY concerned about there JOBS come next election NOT the "health" of the USA in 25 years time like CHINA is
China is used as a panic filled scapegoat to pull in support for fascists. It is not hard calculation to make. Tariffs is best they can do.
Said that, governments need to be more honest about their own efforts as well. They got caught sleeping at the wheel. Not wanting to show any favoritism (no, we can't support electric cars because Fox News say it is bad) now cost them way more.
the environmental impact of battery and car manufactiring in Hungary is already enormous . the economical impact is also a disaster as chinese brings their own people, even their own food supply and toilet paper. so getting chinese in your country no good to anyone exept corrupt politicians
If any of the Western countries were even remotely serious about EV adoption there would be no tariffs.
At the same time the US president announced the 100% tariffs.
BYD was offering a small EV for around $12,000.
A lot of Americans would have bought these.
First car for teen drivers, college students etc.
The EV uptake would have skyrocketed.
Instead because of the protectionist policy.
Tesla discontinued one of its lower cost models and raised prices on others.
We should adopt china's long term strategy instead of the short term quarterly profit watching we have currently
Your mention of the Japanese auto industry reminded of the Toyota Production System ( renamed by an American businessman as Lean Production ) that is now widely used in manufacturing, services and in software - my field. The west should be spending a lot of time and money learning what exactly the Chinese have thought out to make their industries so competitive. And replicate it at home. It's not coincidence that western vehicle industries seem so stodgy.
Love your video Dave, as usual. Keep up the good work!
Perhaps the difference is that manufacturing in China is engineer and scientist lead while the west has MBA leadership whose management techniques are basically outsource cut and dominate to boost share price and bonuses with no regard to innovation and improvement
Western nations know exactly what needs to be done in order to be competitive to China. Abolition of the social security and paid vacations, introduction of 60 hour work weeks for the blue collars and liberal use of the overseas slave labor. However, nowadays it would be considered inhumane, hence the tariffs.
Interesting food for thought. Thank you for sharing!
China is trying to get out of their self inflicted (eg. property bubble) economic downturn by exporting more stuff. At the same time are chinese employees underpaid in international comparison. China needs to raise wages in order to stimulate internal growth instead of export dumping.
Xi Jinping doesn't believe in economics based on consumer spending, like in the west. It's a communist thing. So China focuses on exports to support their economy. So far it's worked, but it will be their doom in the long run.
Encourage local manufacturing in each country to avoid tariffs that are paid by consumers, despite what some politicians say.
BYD has sold a bunch of electric buses into the Canadian market and there has been talks between the Canadian Government and BYD about setting up manufacturing facility in Canada. I think the USA's 100% tariff is moronic - mind you we have a moron waiting in the wings. If I could buy a BYD car now I would seriously consider it. I am looking forward to the Everything Electric Show in Vancouver this September.
I made the trek last September from Ottawa ON to Vancouver BC for the then named "FullyChargedLive" and it was great! Unfortunately the budget doesn't allow for a return trip this year but I hear its going to be almost double the size of last years event. Have a great time.
Totally agree on the moron in the wings and fear he may actually win 😕
Will check out the EE show next month.
BYD HAS a plant in Canada and California I believe for BUSSES and commercial trucks and has notified the Canadian government of there intent to sell EV cars in Canada and there are pics going around of a BYD ATTO 3 in Canada with MFG plates
@@Nitschke-CAN Good thing Kamala (is a she) probably won't win. You will still have to hear her cackle, though.
It is so tremendously stupid to protect domestic auto-industries when the need for cheap EVs is so critical to achieve net-zero. These tariffs against China do nothing but line the pockets of those who work for the auto-industry at the cost of both consumers (through higher prices on cars), down-stream producers, and the climate.
Not only is it stupid, it is hypocritical since, as you mentioned, these countries are guilty of the exact same thing they accuse China of: government assistance and unfair tariffs. Whereas free trade will help the most amount of people and certainly the climate, instead regressing to protectionism is nothing less than cronyism and possibly xenophobia.
Very frustrating. Europe and others should have invested the same way the Chinese government did. China have gone from having the worst EV’s to some of the best right now, and we can’t get our hands on them thanks to crazy import tariffs. Fell in love with the Zeekr 007, no chance now. Even once it gets its EU Certification, how can I afford 29% import duty. Instead I have to find another EU model which is no where near as good. Consumers are going to suffer.
We in the USA flew our engineers to china to train them. In return we lost our jobs. I watched it happen. The china fed kept the yuan price low by buying dollars and the china workers made about 1/20th what a usa worker made.
Im sure this was good for shareholder value since thats all that matters to usa companies.
Also the start of the China industrial revolution was economically boosted by western investers who were getting 8+ percent returns on Chinese investments rather than accepting the 5 ish % returns for western investments.
It wasn’t just the US, everybody did and does and to many countries
No man, China generates far more engineers than the USA and that's why there is 11 times more high speed rail in China than in Japan and it is far more stable because it's higher quality. Stable enough to balance a coin at over 300kmh.
The other reason why the US dollar is failing is because of debt and dedollarization so you can't keep printing money leading to inflation by ongoing wars.
Plus since you won't tax the rich and have also scrrwed the people enough. You borrow leading to debt. Refund schools and funding the rich.
You guys lost your jobs not because of China. But because of your corruption and legalized lobbying. Freedom for the rich.
Also the racism in the USA has led to 80% of Chinese returning to China rather than staying in THE US.
@@waltermcphee3787 Chinas industrial revolution isn't because of western investment. It is because of planning by the CPC and planning of infrastructure and logistics which doesn't exist in India. If western investments really worked to such and extent, why not india.?
The success in China is because of internal guidance not because of the west because the west is focused on capital only. That why there is the rust belt in the USA and everything is financialized.
China kept it's industries supporting all it's other industries and supply chain to makes everything leading to little to no places for the west to exploit in the supply chain.
The only reason China airplane industry to not fully complete yet is because of being certified requiring certain port so is only a stepping stone for China before everything is domestically made.
US and every other country isn't close.
@@AFlyingCookie2024 I did not say it was I said it was boosted, reducing investment in the west.
Great video. Thanks.
Glad you liked it!