Could it be said that in general, the players who were only good at a couple particular skills are the ones who we see fewer players like in later eras because of a lack of versatility? Edit: And could it be said that if a player who had the skillset and height of David Lee or Zach Lavine came up today for the first time that the player would not make an NBA roster?
with the SG death, it's like if you're a 2 that can playmake, you become a 1 (Shai, Luka, Murray, Booker, Harden as you mentioned) but i also think if you're a 2 that defends well, you essentially become a 3 think PG13, Jimmy Butler, Jaylen Brown, OG, Dort, even Klay gets significant minutes at 3
@@DemonKingBadger 6'4-6'5 players are always the hardest to categorize if they don't have immediate skills and abilities that can put them in a automatic position.Marcus thornton (if anybody remembers him) could hoop but he because he was a certain size,length and type of player he was too slow to guard pg's,too small to guard sf's and sg's were more times then not bigger then him. Dwyane Wade was the only exception to the rule in modern time because he had great athleticism,long arms,humongous hands,extremely physical in the paint and weighed like 220 even though he didn't look like it
@@undercoverss6106 Nah fr bc his weight was one of the factors that did him in, injuries wise. Being able to do the stop n go as well and FAST as he does it was only a matter of time
What’s interesting is Aaron Gordon IS the PROTOTYPICAL old school Power Forward. Denver was able to win with the traditional 4, who bangs inside- interior offense and defense, but was able to overcome that with spacing from their 5. 4 out, 1 in. Numbers and “positions” don’t matter. It’s about the roles you play and how that provides spacing, execution, and offensive flow/efficiency on the court. And great defense ofc.
Can tell this is the most effort Rusty has ever put into a video ever. If this is the norm then I am more than ready for it. Glad that you were open about issues with this channel over the past year or so and glad you made the change. Clearly you’re getting better as a person and it is reflecting on RUclips.
I think he took a lot of pride in his lebron most points video. He has it pinned on his channel and it’s another 38 min banger. I wonder if a vid like that is what Rusty was wanting to rekindle with his changes
I think the Goatmentary series from 2019 probably took more effort if only due to its length, but this video certainly took a ton of effort and deserves a lot of attention.
40 minutes long!? Damn I’m looking forward to more videos like this. This is one of the more obvious topics to dive deep into, so I’m interested to see what else Rusty + Rudy have planned!
We often talk about how the transition between eras affected centers, but I think it affected power forward just as much. At a time when center was the weakest, the best power forwards were all old, and the most impactful players were all smaller. It forced the power forwards to pick up the slack of centers or change into big wings, instead of being able to hone their skills and be elite like previous power forwards.
Back in the 90's Robinson, Olajuwon, Shaq etc. were so dominant, nobody could've imagined all the 5's shooting 3's nowadays. People kind of believed big men couldn't really shoot due to some natural, physical inability, probably mainly because nobody taught them and they were always "forced" to play under the basket.
You also have to account for illegal defence: you weren't allowed to leave your man if he was on the weakside and above the free throw line. The Jazz were masters at this: 3 guys camping out on the weakside, drawing away their defenders while Stockton and Malone essentially played 2 on 2. Since illegal defence is gone, team defence has become much better and harder to beat 1 on 1. While it was great to watch those low post magicians in the 90s, the game was actually a bit handicapped and iso-heavy because of illegal defence. I much prefer teams like Denver today where a lot more is happening during an attack.
@@maartenvz Absolutely true, it was fun to watch the big stars play iso, but the overall game is much more entertaining nowadays. Me personally I never liked the illegal defense rule and I absolutely despised Stockton and Malone back in the day and always wanted them to lose. It even made me root for the Bulls, who I didn't like that much since I was a Barkley/Suns and Payton/Kemp/Sonics fan. Also big guys literally couldn't shoot back in the day because they never worked on it. Also a lot of 1's weren't that great shooters back in the day, which is unimaginable today. Shooting 3's was the star SG's and the Eastern European Small Forward's job.
The three was coming. It's a higher point per play. (I don't know why they ever run on the NFL. The average run play about 3.25 average pass about 7.0). The NBA reinstituted the 1979. Twenty five years later power forwards we're adding it to their bag. A
its the mentality that a guaranteed 2 is better than a 50/50 3, and bigs are easier to get the two, of course thats why big men arent taught to shoot the 3
Another data point for the PF transition is 2009-2010 Lakers B2B chips. While Andrew Bynum was starting, Lamar Odom was finish games with Gasol shifting to the 5. Back then it was called a "stretch 4".
@@maartenvzIn Bill Simmons’ redraftable series from 2020, he said that Rick Pitino told his players: “you can take all the bad shots you want as long as you play defense”. Walker shot 32.5% on 4.8 threes a game, and 25.6% on 3.5 threes a game in 1999-00. Granted I’ve heard early 2000’s spacing was basically non-existent, but terrible splits either way.
The PF in my opinion is one of the most important positions. Each team who won a championship in the past all had PFs who were superstars or contributed heavy to winning the title (Anthony Davis, Aaron Gordon, Draymond Green, Pascal Siakam, Giannis, Kevin Love, Pau Gasol, Kevin Garnett) the list goes on. Its the most underrated position in basketball
It kind of makes his point too though. None of them were PF in the sense of being a second big on offense, they either had the capabilities of SFs or had bigs that spaced the floor instead of being in the paint so those PFs was the offensive player at the rim instead of the 5. AD played at the 5 in the Lakers' best lineups, Gordon is a former SF, Draymond played at the 5 in GSW best lineups, Siakam did play like a PF in 2019 but with the speed and skillset of a SF, Giannis is more like a traditional PF but generational talents can be the exception to the rule and even then he attacks more from the perimeter on drives than a typical PF + on offense Giannis is the one in the paint because Brook Lopez is generally spacing the floor instead of doing typical center stuff, Kevin Love could shoot. That's around everyone after the Dirk 2011 ring. So the only way to be an elite PF these days is by being a supersized SF on both ends of the floor, or the only paint-presence on the floor with a spacing center on offense while being either a supersized SF or a help defender on defense
Great video enjoyed it. Felt Charles Barkley should of been an honorable mention. He literally was the prototype to the modern PF way before Draymond. Barkley skill set being an undersized 4 was 30 years ahead of its time.
We’ve already seen the death of the shooting guard. Shai, Devin Booker and Luka are the only three truly elite shooting guards yet all of them are basically just point guards. Others players such as Tyler Herro, Jalen Green and Derrick White are also essentially Point Guards too. The only real Shooting Guards left are Klay, Desmond Bane and I guess Zach Lavine. edit: I typed this right before he actually talked about this
Can we say Klay was the last historically important "pure" shooting guard if this trend stays? BCS after him no other team won with a tradition shooting guard as a protagonist
@@fortynights1513 most of them couldn't in a high level, pre ACL and Achilles Klay is by far the best defender of the bunch (even post Injury I think he is better than many) From the op only Derrick White is a high level defender
Jaylen Brown I would call a pure Shooting Guard. With the sad decline of Klay Thompson it almost feels like JB is a unicorn in this league. Even Bane feels more like an undersized forward
@@baxterbrown8088 yeah JB is another one and I just thought about Khris Middleton too. However, Khris plays more as a small forward now but I still think of him as a ‘true’ shooting guard
The 2, 3, and 4 are really the 3 wing players ordered by size in most cases. I don’t think shooting guards are dying or undergoing some great transformation. I think it’s just the lines between positions are blurring overall. Teams don’t have 1 of each position but instead most have 1 big guy, 1 main ball handler (sometimes a big time secondary one too), and 3 players that are out there for their versatility and defensive matchups
Two questions: 1. He mentioned David Lee’s career died out. Why couldn’t he play center? And 2. Could the future shooting guard position be the best shooter among your wings, the future small forward be the most versatile player of your wings, and the power forward be the best rebounder among your wings?
@@fortynights1513no, there's no set roles for positions, that's the point. Someone like Robert Covington could play the 2, 3, or 4. NBA plays and defense nowadays arent based off position, just skill set. Ben Simmons plays point but you wouldn't match him with Trae Young just because they're both pg. Offensively, teams usually just run some form of 4-out/5-out motion if they're not running set plays, where everyone on the perimeter can shoot, dribble, and pass. Some good examples are the Celtics or the Clippers. You can throw in the 2022 Warriors as well. The only really defined positions are PG and C, and even those are becoming blurred. PG is usually just the guy who brings the ball down and sets up the offense, but we see players like Lebron and Wemby doing that so it's not really that defined anymore. Likewise for C, they're usually defined as the tallest and worst shooting player on the team, but you have players like Wemby, Chet, Jokic, Embiid, etc. who can basically play like wings.
@@fortynights1513 david lee probably didnt play center because andrew bogut was giving them 2 blocks and 10 rebounds a game. they didnt need a mid range shot (which was became a lot less popular around this time when people realized its an inefficient way to score) and they didnt need his playmaking because the warrior were already one of the best passing team in the league.
This video was EXCELLENT and possibly even my favourite you ever made. It really made me think and realize that most of the shooting guards in the league now are pretty much just catch and shoot role players. Even Booker, Edwards and Herro have all been at least floated as options at PG. As a Heat fan, no doubt in my mind D Wade would’ve been a PG in today’s league too but I think the Clippers messy Harden-Westbrook situation is one of the final nails in the coffin for the SG position. The fact that Harden is a (mostly) career SG while Russ is a career PG, but Russ still has to be damn near pushed out of the rotation for Harden to fit on the team is really telling
@@fortynights1513 I think the answer to that lies in how well you think their shooting and defence would translate to today’s game. I think someone like Chalmers was a sneaky good defender and would fit right into a 3&D 2 guard role despite being only 6’2” Especially since he didn’t do too much handling anyway. A player like Jason Williams though, I don’t think could play another position. I feel that was a pairing that worked in the 00s game but won’t translate too well today
@@kingdeedeeSo Jason Williams was a guy who could pass but not as much else, and was playing the one because that was all he could be? Correct me if I’m wrong but that sounds like what was implied. If so, would you say that that was a game that belonged to the 2000’s and earlier before people’s views on positions changed?
@@fortynights1513 I’m not necessarily saying J Will couldn’t do anything else, but in today’s game his lack of size and athleticism would really hold him back. Nowadays for a guard to be successful they either have to be able to score effectively or be ruthless defenders, or both. In a way, yes I am saying J Will’s archetype just isn’t made for today’s game. Like most of the top 10 assist leaders in the NBA today are also explosive scorers. Teams just no longer want to have the ball in the hands of someone who isn’t a meaningful scoring threat like they used to
This video is amazing Rusty You have a talent for storytelling and presentation that is sorely missed in basketball discussion This style fits you and your strenghts alot more than small "spur of the moment" videos
Kevin Love came to mind while I was watching. He had traditional big man skills like rebounding, outlet passes and post up shots, but later developed into a 3pt shooter. He never fully became a center like Aldridge/AD since he sometimes played alongside a center in Cleveland and Minnesota but he also didn't fit the Jerami Grant archetype. Great video overall!
You can go before him to Antoine Walker. He was the first 4 I remember to really start “stretching” the floor. He shot an abnormal amount from the outside. It was really stupid (at the time). Poor %.
@@dapper892There was Rasheed Wallace before that too. Ironically his 3 point shooting may have been a curse. Not because he was necessarily bad but because he was just so much better in the post.
@@Simataa yep. Rasheed definitely was another around the same time. Agreed, he was a victim of too much skill lol. Barkley was another early one, shooting from the outside back in 1993. Garnett really started to step out too, not from 3, but 16-17 feet quite a bit. Malone too. Horace grant. (Just named popping into my head). There were centers starting to stretch the floor in the 90s a bit, at least to mid range. Many centers were like Ewing, smits and Hakeem. Taking 3s was still a no-no though for centers. It was just something you didn’t dream of doing. Anyway. It was coming, gradually.
Shooting Guards are tuning into wings I think Anthony Edwards will bring the position back. Its also interesting that they have been using him at the 1,2 and 3 so this will be interesting
Rusty, I love these types of videos! Make this the style you go for, and keep the other videos on “also rusty buckets.” This video is on pace to be a top 10 highest viewed video on your channel. Congrats man!
Damn, you weren’t kidding. This new format is so much more professional and polished. The difference between this and your old stuff is like night and day. Keep it up, this was awesome and engaging.
Love this! I think a good video would be breaking down the wing position. Since it seems like anyone without the height to be a center, or the playmaking skills to be a PG has to be a wing, there has to be many molds a wing can come in.
Funny thing about Blake is that he had that style of game all along. If you watch some clips of him in Oklahoma and also his pre draft workouts, he showed his ball handling and passing ability. Oddly enough I think CP3 coming to LA is what forced him into a traditional PF role because of his dominance on ball.
@@fortynights1513 absolutely but doc rivers didn’t have the vision to see it that way. Probably would’ve saved years on Paul’s career and Blake’s knees as he wouldn’t been forced to jump at people all game.
Yeah, I paused the video when his whole argument for the PF position is just three point stats. Obviously shooting is part of the spacing of the modern game, but there are also skills like passing. Blake Griffin would still use his size to post up, but would often pass out of the post to cutters or shooters. Rather than strictly being a play finisher, he was using his PF size and PF skills to be a facilitator on offense. Spacing affects more than just the three point shot. And yes, Blake was always an underrated ball handler and passer!
I think we are in the "Best" era. Teams want their best five players on the floor whenever possible and they want the ball in their best players hand most of the time. They'll find ways to make that happen, playing zones, cross-matches etc. Other than that, they are financially motivated to make the game accessible to as many types of players as possible expect small ball trends to continue with rule changes. Though, the age-old big man inside protecting the rim little point outside bouncing the ball dynamite duo won't be going away anytime soon.
Love the longer essay format. I think it really brings out your strength at laying out the history behind basketball's evolution. I got into watching basketball in the late 90s qnd for years it was a league of great power forwards and shooting guards. It's wild to be watching the demise of both positions.
This is definitely one of your best videos so far. I've been following for years but the quality, knowledge, research and heart is all felt hear and explained well. Thank you for this
It's interesting to see how the death of the PF is pretty much the same as the death of the full back. Tight ends were just shown they could do pretty much all the full back things but in a more versatile role with the "passing revolution".
@@jaend6924 its not really the detah of the RB, but rather the "Star" RB A good RB will alwayne be needed hut.kist teams will go the committe route rather than the workhorse route.
QBs who run first will not last. The ball can move quicker through the air than anyone can run with it Poor throwing QBs are using their feet as a crutch
3 players are only essential in a starting 5. Center, Forward and Guard. 2 remaining positions are for stretch forward or combo guard. An example of stretch forward- center - Ralph Sampson / Toni Kukoc / Draymond Green Combo guard - russell westbrook / allen iverson a good insight of "death of PF"
I've been a fan for few years, and I gotta you've really hit gold with this new format of vids. i watched your update video and am glad you're doing much better. it really reflects in your work. not that your vids have been bad, its just that you've turned up the heat and I can't wait for a new video
Always like when someone's passion for a topic shines through in their work. This new long-form format is great for going in-depth and showing how much he cares about the history of the game and where it's headed
While we are changing position names. Point guard can become center, like some other sports, plays more central on court than any other player. Have 2 shooters as wings and 2 big men as forwards..
I would like to see a breakdown of the OKC Thunder in the 2016 playoffs. For the final 3 games of the conference semis against the Spurs and the first four games of the conference finals against the warriors, they went 6-1, against two teams whose combined regular season record was 140-24. When the Thunder would go big with Adams at the 5 and have Kanter come off the bench to play the 4, then you put Ibaka at the 3 and then you have Durant (an effective 5 if he played 40 years ago) who is playing the 2. This lineup was unstoppable for a time! I would like to see a breakdown of how this lineup dominated two of the best regular season teams of all time and then choked.
I've started referring to positions as "guards, wings, and bigs" a few years ago. Every team is heavier in one of those categories than the others, but its the best categorization imo
There have always been prototypical point guards and ones that were were more scorers. AI really made it more possible for the pg to be the primary scorer though.
I think the impact of the Detroit Pistons bad boys played a big role in the 90s teams playing slower half court oriented basketball while the 80s and current era has a way higher pace and more free flow
He did a video awhile back on why “true” or otherwise pass first point guards are a flawed concept and why those players are often overrated. But he hasn’t done a video on the evolution of the way that position is played.
Another thing that struck me watching this video again was that a lot of these successful modern 2 guards you mentioned are failed point guards(ie. Jalen Suggs, Derrick White)
My wife recently started watching the NBA within the past 4ish years and is now a huge basketball fan (and Lakers fan like me - go Lakeshow), and sometimes she asks me questions about positions or fundamentals that are honestly not the easiest for me to explain. I played in HS & have watched the Lakers all my life, but it's hard to put certain things into words that I've just kinda known most of my life. This video is great! It addressed some of the questions she's brought up about positions and provides great context. I'm going to show it to her so she can see a glimpse of what the game has been & what it's becoming. You def earned a subscriber. ANd for the record neither of us want the Lakers to trade for Lavine. LOL
100% agree with this, I've been saying it without saying it for some time now, it's not enough to just be a scorer you need to bring another elite skill to contribute to winning basketball. Love the high level analysis & basketball knowledge, you are clearly a student of the game. Thanks for putting the time and effort in to create such high quality, thought provoking content 👏
i've been a die hard raps fan from day one and i started to say this about derozan near the end of his run and definitely after kawhi came and brought us a ring. and i specifically said this: if derozan brought either elite 3 point shooting or elite defence, the raps would have made at least one finals with him. but derozan brought pretty much nothing of either 3 or D. then kawhi comes along and give you elite defence with good 3 point shooting. derozan is essentially a glorified jamal crawford. guys like derozan get disposed to bottom feeding teams who need to give their fans something to cheer about or players like him will be used as a bridge to mentor the blue chip prospects on the team.
Fantastic work, Rusty. Initially I thought the point guard position might be next with the expectation that every non-big on the team should at least make a play for themselves or others but I get why a position who's only expectation is to score would be next
So…I think non transcendent point guards might seem like the logical next step to be whisked away with the evo of the game. BUT, guys like Cp3, hali, Nash, and you name em, even Trae, those guys who can create literally like 90 high quality shots a game jusr due to their freaking mental brilliance and creativity and passing? I don’t think the game will ever evo past them. No matter their size. Truly. I mean I guess they’d have to be at least 6’2” or so duh, but you know what I mean. Guys who master the PG position like that, they just transcend the norms sometimes. Transcend the trends. Clearly their will be some issues on defense if the game continues to evolve and more and more small guys get played off the court, BUT, if the guys like CP3 and Nash and Trae and etc that keep popping up every so often also continue to be so brilliant they break defenses? I think their teams will find creative ways to keep them on the floor and hide the areas they aren’t elite.
One of the most outlandish but correct takes I’ve seen. The game is constantly evolving, and I’m hoping with the renaissance of the 5 who can do it all too, we won’t have teams running back and forth chucking the long ball cause of the curry and harden effect
I agree with everything you said. The only thing I’d add is that part of the reason the 2 is dying is height. As you correctly pointed out, taller and taller players are developing perimeter skills as opposed to big man skills. Ideally, you need to be around 6’8 to be an effective wing in the NBA these days. Teams can’t afford having 2 6’5 or under guys in the line up. If you can score and are undersized, but also can’t really play the one. The best you can hope for is being a back up one. Also: I’ve always believed small ball officially started with the Heat as well. I’d say the Lakers (with Odom) followed by the Magic (with Hedo Turkoglu and Rashard Lewis) were what gave it intrigue.
The idea behind the evolution of positions is a good way to put into words what the media and fans have been discussing for the previous 5-6 years and its a great way to look into the future. I've always been uncomfortable looking at a 2 and seeing them "carry" a team because it seems impossible without a good facilitator by your side, and I'm glad to hear that this seems to be a big change. Also, not a necessary insight, but you look like a mix between the Technology Connections youtuber and late season Timothy Magee from NCIS. That's it.
The first guy that I can remember breaking the PF model was prime Shawn Kemp. At the time, the prototypical PF was Charles Barkley and other similar guys like Dennis Rodman and Larry Johnson. Muscular, fast but not agile, rebound and post up focused. The Reign Man was a 6'10 PF on defense but he could run the floor like a Wing and could stretch the floor a bit(by 90's standards) with a decent mid range game.
If you were to guess another position to "die" / be remodeled. Which position would it be? Personally, I think we are gonna see it at the point guard position over the next decade. (More so in the sense of a small guard, like a CP3, IT, Nash, )
@@benjespina "true point guard" stopped since a moment, GM and owners realize that true PG as your 1st or 2nd option don't win you chip unless you're a point forward like Magic. The only one who did it is Zeke and even him has shooting guards kind performance ( most points in a quarter in playoffs history) and stats ( 26-5-3) when he won ( basically you can't distinguish his FMVP stats from Dumars FMVP stats)
@@benjespina”true point guards” died out a long time ago. If you’re a point guard and can’t shoot 3’s you can’t even get on a G league team anymore (with exceptions)
I think that instead of OG Anunoby, Scottie Barnes is the example that I would go to for the future of shooting guards. He’s an excellent defender and (this year) an excellent shooter. He is also good enough to be a very good-great secondary playmaker, which I think is the main point that might have been missed in the video. Overall though, great video Rusty, I can’t wait to see more.
As a biologist and a basketball fan that Darwinism comparison was awesome and totally echoed my own perspectives. I would argue that in truth, the game will break down over time to really big wings. Point guards are definitely useful, but dudes like Luka who are somewhat of a point forward are pretty ideal. Above Luka in terms of what I expect a star player to look like in about 20 years is Jayson Tatum. Tall, fast, great on defense, willing to make the right play, and an excellent shooter and cutter. I expect to see a lot more “two way” forwards in the near future that overtake the shooting guard position, and eventually the point guard position.
YES. Felt this myself for years now. As soon as we started to see so many players 6’8” and up who could do “PG” things when they had the ball? Only seemed logical to think that when there is enough of them that’s what it’s all gonna be?
"what I expect a star player to look like in about 20 years is Jayson Tatum. Tall, fast, great on defense, willing to make the right play, and an excellent shooter and cutter. " That's basically Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant.
@@joaopescusa he's talking about a 6'9 player doing that not a 6'4-6'6 player doing it, there's already player like that, but what he's talking about is basically LBJ or PG13
mah man, pg is not great on defense, and his very average offense wise, I'd take a 6'6-6'7 SG who excelled at that than a mid level player like pg.@@paquinraino8180
honestly I am not THE biggest fan of your prior videos, but I understand how much research goes into doing these new types of videos that you are trying to do and in all honesty (with me as mentioned not being so much into your content) this is a great video and a really good analysis, and I cannot wait what is in store for next, keep it up and great job
12:03 That's fucking amazing!!!! NOW the modern format makes sense!!! If you have a jokic who can shoot, his guard aka the big will be pulled out of the paint opening the way for everyone including the big if he can drive. Now a big with better fundamentals become necessary and you dont need a guy that big anymore since rebounding will be less likely due to easy points, and then comes Gsw with Draymond green. When you focus too much on getting good on how things are already done you lose the chance to break the mode and create something even better and exciting, most of the times simply because we lack confidence to try and persuade. I think Dirk gave them the hint on what they were lacking.
In the case of Edwards, is it a case where he’s a better shooter than the player who plays point guard next to him, and that player is a better passer?
aaron gordon is a good example that the classic PF are dying. hes a modern PF, dude. and Ant, ok, i can agree, hes a true SG, but still its a dying breed
This is a great analysis, but one guy that's worth mentioning in the preamble is Robert Horry. Drafted as a 6'9 small forward, he played that position his first two years in the league and won a championship in 1994. In 1995, the Rockets traded their All-Star power forward Otis Thorpe for a wing, and moved Horry to the power forward position. They'd win a championship that year with four shooters and Hakeem. A year later, Horry found himself paired with Shaq and won another three championships, before going to the Spurs and winning another two with Tim Duncan. While he wasn't a true "stretch forward," Horry could guard down to the wings, help on centers, and had three point shooting range in an era where that wasn't really what a "traditional" 4 did.
You may have a point here. But bear in mind you can't fully explain Horry's legacy with logic. The very fabric of space and time used to bend to accommodate his legend.
Was anybody else super happy when the arranged Miami Super Team lost in the finals, twice? I even was a Wade and James fan before, due to their sheer talent one just had to watch them, but me being from Switzerland/Europe, I was so fed up already with the teams with the most money/the best players always winning in football/soccer. Warriors and Durant ruined the Cavaliers Warriors Finals for me, it was 1-1, the best 2 players in the league going at each other, and then one of the teams just buys the 3rd best player in the world, ah come on...
Finally someone who put some respect on Steve Kerr’s name. Kerr’s game plan of offball screens for curry and klay with green ball handling opened them up for 3s and faster and more scoring opportunities. And you gave them credit for defense no one talks about how great they were at defense when you look at their defensive rating ranks during their 2014-2017 pre kd run they did good post kd but they became a true superteam with him. Respect.
Good to see you see you back old friend. I can relate with the weed addiction too but I’m also stopped and it been good for me. You’re not fighting these battle alone dude!
While I think the PG/Wing trio/C is a good take, don't forget about the other teams who are doing a PG Duo type of approach and finding varying success. Celtics doing the best with it rn, Dallas has quite the offense with their duo, OKC and Atlanta has potential to grow if they can get some better forwards or develop their current ones faster. Also, where does this leave SGs that aren't quite great passers, but have high scoring potential like Anthony Edwards or a bench player like Tim Hardaway Jr.? Nice video Rusty.
Joel Anthony is one of those players who seems bad but actually played a large role in that team. Played a lot of defense and made a lot of hustle plays.
The one thing I will say about the team structure proposal of a PG, 3 wings, and a big, is that, as you have said multiple times on your channel, you cannot fully rely on one person creating your offense to win a championship. You are going to have to have a base level of creation and playmaking from at least one of your other starters.
I agree on this evolution but we will always see exceptions. It all depends on the skills, skill level and chemistry of the individual players on the court. Eventually you will see that exception and the old layout on a title winning team. But the game is evolving and I love the way some of the European players remind us all that the game can be exciting watching the unstoppable moves some of these guys have. It’s not just about your 46 inch vertical and monster dunks. It’s still a game of knowledge and skill and that’s why I still love it.
casual here (& a fairly new fan of basketball) and the only position I understood fully was a center. been binge watching your stuff man. I like the way you break things down. you explained the positions and their purposes very well. thanks for helping me understand the game itself better. it’ll enhance my experience actually watching the games. fr thanks 🙏
Love the new format! It's crazy to think that SGs will go the way of the dodo. Twenty years ago, that was probably the most hyped position with Kobe, McGrady, Vince and AI. All good things must come to an end, however.
Alternative take: PG position already died. The "pass first" PG had always been the traditional role. The advent of "shoot first" point guards really just meant a shooting guard is bringing the ball up. NBA teams are built around superstars. Those superstars play-make. The superstars that are not centers are called point guards. Current NBA is ordinarily, but not necessarily, A SG with two SF and a C. That might just be semantics because it still agrees with the premise. Regardless, a great video and breakdown! I enjoy hearing from people who understand the game.
Exactly my thoughts as well. Sure, guards that can score but not playmake are dying out, but guards that can playmake but not score have already been dead.
@@fortynights1513 I would day so. They seemed like the last of that type. And yeah I would also say Allen Iverson is the one that revolutionized the position change.
I feel like Aaron Gordon really is the purest example of what a power forward is. Big, fast, athletic, can dunk the SHIT out of the ball, and can shoot juuuuuuust enough to where he's not a liability.
Love the video and where the channel is going! If anything, I'd note that the chapter cards are a little long on my end (like Chapter 2: What is even is.. was like 10 seconds), but otherwise excited for the future
I don’t know how I’m just discovering your channel but this is masterful work!!! Thoughtful analysis & great content! Much better than what we get now on the daily sports shows!
Nowadays, the ideal team is as follows: the PG is required to be a combo guard (score and playmake). 2-3 are all swingmen (sg-sf tweener that can defend and shoot) and a stretch big
This was absolutely great. Really happy with the new format, something i can be invested in for 40 minutes. I hope that you are in a better mind state, and that you finding friends around you. I also hope that you found help and got out of the hole that depression makes your life. Weed is a real addiction, it is easier to fight than other addictions but it is still an addition. It makes people more depress, and reduces motivation. Their is actual science behind it, so reducing the levels of weed you consume or cutting out for a while will help. In pandemic i was in a similar hole, and cutting weed out of my life really help. Im happy you move out to a new home and you feeling better. I think on the topic of the video. The Power foward and shooting guard are nowadays kind of lost positions. With the less specified roles what make them special, kind of been hibrid high scoring positions have lost relevance. Nowadays other positions do the same, score a lot, capability to defend multiple positions. I think that explains why they are disappearing. SF was always the more hybrid position, so it has somehow also disappear. Now all that three positions are merging into the foward positions as you saying. The only two positions that still make sense are C and PG. C is defensive anchor and rebounder, PG is the ball handler and playmaker. They will never disappear but all the other three have merge into a nothingness XD
Love the discussion, but my twolves kinda just spit in this face atm. 2 5's and a true 2. Now one of our 5's can shoot, the other protects the rim, and our two is looking like a generational player.... but thess are the twolves so im scared to believe it will stay good. But the ride this season has been fun so far
the 2-4 look identical now. Shooting guards aren't dying, they're just merging into the ambiguous wing spot, or they get really ball dominant and play point. If any position is dying, it's the traditional pass first PG. If you run plays through your non 1 superstar, you can just swap him for another generic wing shooter/cutter type and put even more pressure on the opponent on both sides.
Not that pass first point guards aren’t an essentially dead archetype, but that probably wasn’t brought up here because it’s death was years ago (possibly early 2010’s?)
One of the best pieces of basketball content I’ve seen in quite awhile. Excellent work. Great to me that you ended it as an opportunity for open discussion. I’ve been sensing what you are espousing as well. I don’t currently have much to argue about. I’m an avid spurs fan and I’m watching a failure of a point forward happen in front of my eyes with the experiment with sochan… it would appear the league might turn into a bunch of point guards with length and high value playmaking ability with scoring and dynamic centers. The roster construction of what I would consider high value add players tend to be one or the other with a lot of tremendous defensive talent and pure athleticism coupled with the 3 pt consistency at the other “positions”. Quality rim protection and length will always be valuable. As will ball handling and decision making with the ones with the ball in their hand.
Great video, though your reasoning why the SG position is going to disappear kinda contradicts your reason why SF will not disappear. You said that the small forwards will not disappear because “look, even the PFs gradually became SFs, so that means it’s a superior position”. But your point with shooting guards is “all PGs became more like SGs, and there’s non need for two players to do the same thing”. If we recount to earlier that exact thing could have been said about SFs: “Now that PFs become more skilled at passing shooting and even dribbling there’s no actual need for a SF which is exactly that but a little smaller”. I believe that it’s either both SFs and SG are getting replaced and that means they’re obsolete, or they are both mimicked by other positions which means that they are both optimal.
I am 44 years old and haven't been a passionate follower of the NBA since 1998. I still watch the NBA today to witness how the game will evolve into. I have to say it is interesting how the game has generic set of skilled wing players with no traditional positions anymore.
The position isn't needed because of the reliance on 3 point shooting. You don't need a underbasket rebounder if an off placed long distance shot bounces outside the key.
My thoughts exactly! I was watching the finals and the mavs getting dogwalked by the Celtics, and it made me think about this. If you have a point who doesn't play solid defense then it puts more of a focus on having solid defenders at the 2. Derrick White is a great example of this, and I think that guys like Tony Allen with that hardnosed skillset would dominate in this era
![The Rise & Fall Of NBA Superteams [Deep Dive]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5qg_l4R6hmc/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Rise & Fall Of NBA Superteams [Deep Dive]](/img/tr.png)
Rusty is in his hour long video essay era and I'm all for it
Fr. My man moved and got in his bag. Rudy's editing also taking a leap too.
Hour long video and looking clean AF 🥶
While still in his pat riley hair phase. I love it.
This is only half an hour...
I support this message 💯
The idea of the NBA evolving into a PG, 3 wings and a center was a genius take.
Pretty accurate given the landscape
Could it be said that in general, the players who were only good at a couple particular skills are the ones who we see fewer players like in later eras because of a lack of versatility?
Edit: And could it be said that if a player who had the skillset and height of David Lee or Zach Lavine came up today for the first time that the player would not make an NBA roster?
I love it fr
Not really a take when its been public knowledge and seen for several years now
Love the new rusty ❤
with the SG death, it's like if you're a 2 that can playmake, you become a 1 (Shai, Luka, Murray, Booker, Harden as you mentioned) but i also think if you're a 2 that defends well, you essentially become a 3 think PG13, Jimmy Butler, Jaylen Brown, OG, Dort, even Klay gets significant minutes at 3
It might end up being about height. Anybody under 6"4 who can't PG might become automatically obsolete.
@@DemonKingBadger 6'4-6'5 players are always the hardest to categorize if they don't have immediate skills and abilities that can put them in a automatic position.Marcus thornton (if anybody remembers him) could hoop but he because he was a certain size,length and type of player he was too slow to guard pg's,too small to guard sf's and sg's were more times then not bigger then him.
Dwyane Wade was the only exception to the rule in modern time because he had great athleticism,long arms,humongous hands,extremely physical in the paint and weighed like 220 even though he didn't look like it
@@mxhugheswade definitely did look it. He was super bulky and muscular for a guard.
@@TheIcemanthomashe was more 205-210 during his “flash prime” years but still super physical.
@@undercoverss6106 Nah fr bc his weight was one of the factors that did him in, injuries wise. Being able to do the stop n go as well and FAST as he does it was only a matter of time
What’s interesting is Aaron Gordon IS the PROTOTYPICAL old school Power Forward. Denver was able to win with the traditional 4, who bangs inside- interior offense and defense, but was able to overcome that with spacing from their 5. 4 out, 1 in. Numbers and “positions” don’t matter. It’s about the roles you play and how that provides spacing, execution, and offensive flow/efficiency on the court. And great defense ofc.
He’s not prototypical defensively though. He’s very versatile
Ben is a 3. He only seems like a 4 because there are no 4s.
He also shoots about 3 threes a game,which is hardly prototypical. You must not know ball
Gordon has always been a 3 he's just big i.e 6'9 235+ so you can consider him a 4
@@aidanparrott1810he doesnt make a lot of them, he mainly hangs out near the dunker’s spot or cuts
I really hope the SG doesn't die. It's the most aesthetically pleasing position to me.
It’s already dead, what’s the difference between at 2 guard and a small forward?
You’re either the ball handler, a wing, or a center.
Can tell this is the most effort Rusty has ever put into a video ever. If this is the norm then I am more than ready for it. Glad that you were open about issues with this channel over the past year or so and glad you made the change. Clearly you’re getting better as a person and it is reflecting on RUclips.
I think he took a lot of pride in his lebron most points video. He has it pinned on his channel and it’s another 38 min banger. I wonder if a vid like that is what Rusty was wanting to rekindle with his changes
Read your bible! (KJV, preferably) ♥
I think the Goatmentary series from 2019 probably took more effort if only due to its length, but this video certainly took a ton of effort and deserves a lot of attention.
40 minutes long!? Damn I’m looking forward to more videos like this. This is one of the more obvious topics to dive deep into, so I’m interested to see what else Rusty + Rudy have planned!
You powered forward to it?
😂@@user0x0x6
We supporting this one big time 💪🏾
We often talk about how the transition between eras affected centers, but I think it affected power forward just as much. At a time when center was the weakest, the best power forwards were all old, and the most impactful players were all smaller. It forced the power forwards to pick up the slack of centers or change into big wings, instead of being able to hone their skills and be elite like previous power forwards.
Back in the 90's Robinson, Olajuwon, Shaq etc. were so dominant, nobody could've imagined all the 5's shooting 3's nowadays. People kind of believed big men couldn't really shoot due to some natural, physical inability, probably mainly because nobody taught them and they were always "forced" to play under the basket.
You also have to account for illegal defence: you weren't allowed to leave your man if he was on the weakside and above the free throw line. The Jazz were masters at this: 3 guys camping out on the weakside, drawing away their defenders while Stockton and Malone essentially played 2 on 2. Since illegal defence is gone, team defence has become much better and harder to beat 1 on 1. While it was great to watch those low post magicians in the 90s, the game was actually a bit handicapped and iso-heavy because of illegal defence. I much prefer teams like Denver today where a lot more is happening during an attack.
@@maartenvz Absolutely true, it was fun to watch the big stars play iso, but the overall game is much more entertaining nowadays. Me personally I never liked the illegal defense rule and I absolutely despised Stockton and Malone back in the day and always wanted them to lose. It even made me root for the Bulls, who I didn't like that much since I was a Barkley/Suns and Payton/Kemp/Sonics fan. Also big guys literally couldn't shoot back in the day because they never worked on it. Also a lot of 1's weren't that great shooters back in the day, which is unimaginable today. Shooting 3's was the star SG's and the Eastern European Small Forward's job.
The three was coming. It's a higher point per play. (I don't know why they ever run on the NFL. The average run play about 3.25 average pass about 7.0). The NBA reinstituted the 1979. Twenty five years later power forwards we're adding it to their bag.
A
its the mentality that a guaranteed 2 is better than a 50/50 3, and bigs are easier to get the two, of course thats why big men arent taught to shoot the 3
Another data point for the PF transition is 2009-2010 Lakers B2B chips. While Andrew Bynum was starting, Lamar Odom was finish games with Gasol shifting to the 5. Back then it was called a "stretch 4".
Toni Kukoc and Antoine Walker were “stretch” PFs in the 90s. Didn’t watch the whole vid. Not sure if he mentioned them.
@@dapper892Antoine Walker would have been the worst three point shooter on high volume if Russell Westbrook hadnt existed
@@maartenvz I’m aware. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t doin it when no one else was.
Read your bible! (KJV, preferably) ♥
@@maartenvzIn Bill Simmons’ redraftable series from 2020, he said that Rick Pitino told his players:
“you can take all the bad shots you want as long as you play defense”.
Walker shot 32.5% on 4.8 threes a game, and 25.6% on 3.5 threes a game in 1999-00.
Granted I’ve heard early 2000’s spacing was basically non-existent, but terrible splits either way.
Rusty this is by far your best video in a very long time. Keep working we can see the love and effort
The PF in my opinion is one of the most important positions. Each team who won a championship in the past all had PFs who were superstars or contributed heavy to winning the title (Anthony Davis, Aaron Gordon, Draymond Green, Pascal Siakam, Giannis, Kevin Love, Pau Gasol, Kevin Garnett) the list goes on. Its the most underrated position in basketball
How can u forget the best power foward of all time off the list
It kind of makes his point too though. None of them were PF in the sense of being a second big on offense, they either had the capabilities of SFs or had bigs that spaced the floor instead of being in the paint so those PFs was the offensive player at the rim instead of the 5. AD played at the 5 in the Lakers' best lineups, Gordon is a former SF, Draymond played at the 5 in GSW best lineups, Siakam did play like a PF in 2019 but with the speed and skillset of a SF, Giannis is more like a traditional PF but generational talents can be the exception to the rule and even then he attacks more from the perimeter on drives than a typical PF + on offense Giannis is the one in the paint because Brook Lopez is generally spacing the floor instead of doing typical center stuff, Kevin Love could shoot. That's around everyone after the Dirk 2011 ring. So the only way to be an elite PF these days is by being a supersized SF on both ends of the floor, or the only paint-presence on the floor with a spacing center on offense while being either a supersized SF or a help defender on defense
Draymond is almost impossible to slot in at any one position
That just means you need to have really good players at all positions to win the championship
@@baxterbrown8088That’s because he brings no value at any position.
Great video enjoyed it. Felt Charles Barkley should of been an honorable mention. He literally was the prototype to the modern PF way before Draymond. Barkley skill set being an undersized 4 was 30 years ahead of its time.
Maybe by size, but he played in the paint and not with the spacing of a modern 4
Should have
5@@kylec2761yea but he was able to handle the ball like a Draymond
This video is incredible - keep it up!! Your knowledge and analysis is first class and we're all better off as basketball fans for following you.
We’ve already seen the death of the shooting guard. Shai, Devin Booker and Luka are the only three truly elite shooting guards yet all of them are basically just point guards. Others players such as Tyler Herro, Jalen Green and Derrick White are also essentially Point Guards too. The only real Shooting Guards left are Klay, Desmond Bane and I guess Zach Lavine.
edit: I typed this right before he actually talked about this
Can we say Klay was the last historically important "pure" shooting guard if this trend stays? BCS after him no other team won with a tradition shooting guard as a protagonist
@@luizansoundsOut of curiosity the players he listed as shooting guards:
Could those players not defend?
@@fortynights1513 most of them couldn't in a high level, pre ACL and Achilles Klay is by far the best defender of the bunch (even post Injury I think he is better than many)
From the op only Derrick White is a high level defender
Jaylen Brown I would call a pure Shooting Guard. With the sad decline of Klay Thompson it almost feels like JB is a unicorn in this league. Even Bane feels more like an undersized forward
@@baxterbrown8088 yeah JB is another one and I just thought about Khris Middleton too. However, Khris plays more as a small forward now but I still think of him as a ‘true’ shooting guard
Thank you Rusty for pushing elite content. Yesterday's video was heartfelt and makes us wish you the best in future endeavors. Keep delivering💯🐏
The 2, 3, and 4 are really the 3 wing players ordered by size in most cases. I don’t think shooting guards are dying or undergoing some great transformation. I think it’s just the lines between positions are blurring overall. Teams don’t have 1 of each position but instead most have 1 big guy, 1 main ball handler (sometimes a big time secondary one too), and 3 players that are out there for their versatility and defensive matchups
Two questions:
1. He mentioned David Lee’s career died out. Why couldn’t he play center?
And 2.
Could the future shooting guard position be the best shooter among your wings, the future small forward be the most versatile player of your wings, and the power forward be the best rebounder among your wings?
@@fortynights1513no, there's no set roles for positions, that's the point. Someone like Robert Covington could play the 2, 3, or 4.
NBA plays and defense nowadays arent based off position, just skill set. Ben Simmons plays point but you wouldn't match him with Trae Young just because they're both pg.
Offensively, teams usually just run some form of 4-out/5-out motion if they're not running set plays, where everyone on the perimeter can shoot, dribble, and pass.
Some good examples are the Celtics or the Clippers. You can throw in the 2022 Warriors as well.
The only really defined positions are PG and C, and even those are becoming blurred. PG is usually just the guy who brings the ball down and sets up the offense, but we see players like Lebron and Wemby doing that so it's not really that defined anymore. Likewise for C, they're usually defined as the tallest and worst shooting player on the team, but you have players like Wemby, Chet, Jokic, Embiid, etc. who can basically play like wings.
@@fortynights1513 david lee probably didnt play center because andrew bogut was giving them 2 blocks and 10 rebounds a game. they didnt need a mid range shot (which was became a lot less popular around this time when people realized its an inefficient way to score) and they didnt need his playmaking because the warrior were already one of the best passing team in the league.
i think u didnt understand the 'the shooting guard is dying' thing. its the CLASSIC shooting guard. the prototype
This video was EXCELLENT and possibly even my favourite you ever made. It really made me think and realize that most of the shooting guards in the league now are pretty much just catch and shoot role players. Even Booker, Edwards and Herro have all been at least floated as options at PG.
As a Heat fan, no doubt in my mind D Wade would’ve been a PG in today’s league too but I think the Clippers messy Harden-Westbrook situation is one of the final nails in the coffin for the SG position. The fact that Harden is a (mostly) career SG while Russ is a career PG, but Russ still has to be damn near pushed out of the rotation for Harden to fit on the team is really telling
Read your bible! (KJV, preferably) ♥
Would the guys playing point guard next to Wade be 1’s today as well? Or not.
@@fortynights1513 I think the answer to that lies in how well you think their shooting and defence would translate to today’s game. I think someone like Chalmers was a sneaky good defender and would fit right into a 3&D 2 guard role despite being only 6’2” Especially since he didn’t do too much handling anyway. A player like Jason Williams though, I don’t think could play another position. I feel that was a pairing that worked in the 00s game but won’t translate too well today
@@kingdeedeeSo Jason Williams was a guy who could pass but not as much else, and was playing the one because that was all he could be?
Correct me if I’m wrong but that sounds like what was implied.
If so, would you say that that was a game that belonged to the 2000’s and earlier before people’s views on positions changed?
@@fortynights1513 I’m not necessarily saying J Will couldn’t do anything else, but in today’s game his lack of size and athleticism would really hold him back. Nowadays for a guard to be successful they either have to be able to score effectively or be ruthless defenders, or both. In a way, yes I am saying J Will’s archetype just isn’t made for today’s game. Like most of the top 10 assist leaders in the NBA today are also explosive scorers. Teams just no longer want to have the ball in the hands of someone who isn’t a meaningful scoring threat like they used to
Barkley started it all .. the most versatile 4 , ball handler , rebounder , assist , defender ,good 3point shooter .. one of a kind
Sucks that he never got the star help that he needed
I think the 3 pointer had something to do with it. It started in the 80’s and was considered gimmicky in the 90’s . By the 2010’s it became popular
This video is amazing Rusty
You have a talent for storytelling and presentation that is sorely missed in basketball discussion
This style fits you and your strenghts alot more than small "spur of the moment" videos
I used to love your old deep dives so it’s cool to see them comeback
Kevin Love came to mind while I was watching. He had traditional big man skills like rebounding, outlet passes and post up shots, but later developed into a 3pt shooter. He never fully became a center like Aldridge/AD since he sometimes played alongside a center in Cleveland and Minnesota but he also didn't fit the Jerami Grant archetype. Great video overall!
You can go before him to Antoine Walker. He was the first 4 I remember to really start “stretching” the floor. He shot an abnormal amount from the outside. It was really stupid (at the time). Poor %.
@@dapper892There was Rasheed Wallace before that too. Ironically his 3 point shooting may have been a curse. Not because he was necessarily bad but because he was just so much better in the post.
@@Simataa yep. Rasheed definitely was another around the same time. Agreed, he was a victim of too much skill lol. Barkley was another early one, shooting from the outside back in 1993.
Garnett really started to step out too, not from 3, but 16-17 feet quite a bit. Malone too. Horace grant. (Just named popping into my head).
There were centers starting to stretch the floor in the 90s a bit, at least to mid range. Many centers were like Ewing, smits and Hakeem. Taking 3s was still a no-no though for centers. It was just something you didn’t dream of doing.
Anyway. It was coming, gradually.
What yall know about Antawn Jamison? Dude was a force, essentially a blueprint alongside Dirk for the modern forward styles.
@@ZaeOSWS another good one
Shooting Guards are tuning into wings I think Anthony Edwards will bring the position back. Its also interesting that they have been using him at the 1,2 and 3 so this will be interesting
SG has always been wings they were the OG wing
Rusty, I love these types of videos! Make this the style you go for, and keep the other videos on “also rusty buckets.” This video is on pace to be a top 10 highest viewed video on your channel. Congrats man!
Damn, you weren’t kidding. This new format is so much more professional and polished. The difference between this and your old stuff is like night and day. Keep it up, this was awesome and engaging.
Love this! I think a good video would be breaking down the wing position. Since it seems like anyone without the height to be a center, or the playmaking skills to be a PG has to be a wing, there has to be many molds a wing can come in.
Funny thing about Blake is that he had that style of game all along. If you watch some clips of him in Oklahoma and also his pre draft workouts, he showed his ball handling and passing ability. Oddly enough I think CP3 coming to LA is what forced him into a traditional PF role because of his dominance on ball.
Could they have been better off if both of them shared ball handling?
@@fortynights1513 absolutely but doc rivers didn’t have the vision to see it that way. Probably would’ve saved years on Paul’s career and Blake’s knees as he wouldn’t been forced to jump at people all game.
Yeah, I paused the video when his whole argument for the PF position is just three point stats. Obviously shooting is part of the spacing of the modern game, but there are also skills like passing. Blake Griffin would still use his size to post up, but would often pass out of the post to cutters or shooters. Rather than strictly being a play finisher, he was using his PF size and PF skills to be a facilitator on offense. Spacing affects more than just the three point shot. And yes, Blake was always an underrated ball handler and passer!
Great analysis. Looking forward for more content like this. That being said, l really miss the late 70's, 80's, and 90's NBA.
Me too. I watch more videos from the 70s, 80s and 90s than modern games- and, except for Golden State- enjoy them much more.
I think we are in the "Best" era. Teams want their best five players on the floor whenever possible and they want the ball in their best players hand most of the time. They'll find ways to make that happen, playing zones, cross-matches etc. Other than that, they are financially motivated to make the game accessible to as many types of players as possible expect small ball trends to continue with rule changes. Though, the age-old big man inside protecting the rim little point outside bouncing the ball dynamite duo won't be going away anytime soon.
Love the longer essay format. I think it really brings out your strength at laying out the history behind basketball's evolution. I got into watching basketball in the late 90s qnd for years it was a league of great power forwards and shooting guards. It's wild to be watching the demise of both positions.
This is definitely one of your best videos so far. I've been following for years but the quality, knowledge, research and heart is all felt hear and explained well. Thank you for this
It's interesting to see how the death of the PF is pretty much the same as the death of the full back. Tight ends were just shown they could do pretty much all the full back things but in a more versatile role with the "passing revolution".
yeah and now young QBs in HS level are being trained to essentially eliminate the classical RB position
@@jaend6924Could Derrick Henry be the last running back in NFL history to run for as many yards as he has?
@@jaend6924 its not really the detah of the RB, but rather the "Star" RB
A good RB will alwayne be needed hut.kist teams will go the committe route rather than the workhorse route.
QBs who run first will not last.
The ball can move quicker through the air than anyone can run with it
Poor throwing QBs are using their feet as a crutch
3 players are only essential in a starting 5. Center, Forward and Guard. 2 remaining positions are for stretch forward or combo guard.
An example of stretch forward- center - Ralph Sampson / Toni Kukoc / Draymond Green
Combo guard - russell westbrook / allen iverson
a good insight of "death of PF"
I've been a fan for few years, and I gotta you've really hit gold with this new format of vids. i watched your update video and am glad you're doing much better. it really reflects in your work. not that your vids have been bad, its just that you've turned up the heat and I can't wait for a new video
Always like when someone's passion for a topic shines through in their work. This new long-form format is great for going in-depth and showing how much he cares about the history of the game and where it's headed
Love this content!!!! This stuff sets you apart man no one is doing this like you. 1000% sure you will find success with this type of content.
Loving the new style of content Rusty. Looking forward to seeing the channel continue to grow man👍🏻
While we are changing position names. Point guard can become center, like some other sports, plays more central on court than any other player. Have 2 shooters as wings and 2 big men as forwards..
I would like to see a breakdown of the OKC Thunder in the 2016 playoffs. For the final 3 games of the conference semis against the Spurs and the first four games of the conference finals against the warriors, they went 6-1, against two teams whose combined regular season record was 140-24. When the Thunder would go big with Adams at the 5 and have Kanter come off the bench to play the 4, then you put Ibaka at the 3 and then you have Durant (an effective 5 if he played 40 years ago) who is playing the 2. This lineup was unstoppable for a time! I would like to see a breakdown of how this lineup dominated two of the best regular season teams of all time and then choked.
I really love these long videos, not many basketball RUclipsrs do them anymore but there’s always a ton of topics you can use to make these vids
I've started referring to positions as "guards, wings, and bigs" a few years ago. Every team is heavier in one of those categories than the others, but its the best categorization imo
You should do a video about the evolution of point guards focusing on the shifts between Stockton, AI, CP3, Curry, and now Haliburton
There have always been prototypical point guards and ones that were were more scorers. AI really made it more possible for the pg to be the primary scorer though.
Oscar robertson before that
I think the impact of the Detroit Pistons bad boys played a big role in the 90s teams playing slower half court oriented basketball while the 80s and current era has a way higher pace and more free flow
He did a video awhile back on why “true” or otherwise pass first point guards are a flawed concept and why those players are often overrated.
But he hasn’t done a video on the evolution of the way that position is played.
Another thing that struck me watching this video again was that a lot of these successful modern 2 guards you mentioned are failed point guards(ie. Jalen Suggs, Derrick White)
My wife recently started watching the NBA within the past 4ish years and is now a huge basketball fan (and Lakers fan like me - go Lakeshow), and sometimes she asks me questions about positions or fundamentals that are honestly not the easiest for me to explain. I played in HS & have watched the Lakers all my life, but it's hard to put certain things into words that I've just kinda known most of my life.
This video is great! It addressed some of the questions she's brought up about positions and provides great context. I'm going to show it to her so she can see a glimpse of what the game has been & what it's becoming. You def earned a subscriber. ANd for the record neither of us want the Lakers to trade for Lavine. LOL
100% agree with this, I've been saying it without saying it for some time now, it's not enough to just be a scorer you need to bring another elite skill to contribute to winning basketball.
Love the high level analysis & basketball knowledge, you are clearly a student of the game.
Thanks for putting the time and effort in to create such high quality, thought provoking content 👏
i've been a die hard raps fan from day one and i started to say this about derozan near the end of his run and definitely after kawhi came and brought us a ring.
and i specifically said this: if derozan brought either elite 3 point shooting or elite defence, the raps would have made at least one finals with him. but derozan brought pretty much nothing of either 3 or D. then kawhi comes along and give you elite defence with good 3 point shooting.
derozan is essentially a glorified jamal crawford.
guys like derozan get disposed to bottom feeding teams who need to give their fans something to cheer about or players like him will be used as a bridge to mentor the blue chip prospects on the team.
Video contains Raptors Bosh highlights, instantly makes it a 10
Fantastic work, Rusty. Initially I thought the point guard position might be next with the expectation that every non-big on the team should at least make a play for themselves or others but I get why a position who's only expectation is to score would be next
So…I think non transcendent point guards might seem like the logical next step to be whisked away with the evo of the game. BUT, guys like Cp3, hali, Nash, and you name em, even Trae, those guys who can create literally like 90 high quality shots a game jusr due to their freaking mental brilliance and creativity and passing? I don’t think the game will ever evo past them. No matter their size. Truly. I mean I guess they’d have to be at least 6’2” or so duh, but you know what I mean. Guys who master the PG position like that, they just transcend the norms sometimes. Transcend the trends. Clearly their will be some issues on defense if the game continues to evolve and more and more small guys get played off the court, BUT, if the guys like CP3 and Nash and Trae and etc that keep popping up every so often also continue to be so brilliant they break defenses? I think their teams will find creative ways to keep them on the floor and hide the areas they aren’t elite.
This is the 3 n D era what that actually means is position less basketball and if you can't shoot 7to10 realistic looking 3s you can't play
One of the most outlandish but correct takes I’ve seen. The game is constantly evolving, and I’m hoping with the renaissance of the 5 who can do it all too, we won’t have teams running back and forth chucking the long ball cause of the curry and harden effect
I adore long-form content and I'm eagerly awaiting more of these videos. I loved your deep dives before.
- Jrez
Always love these type of “evolution of the game” type essays. Great quality too, looking forward to more
I love this video and what your doing. Would love more of this but understand that it might take a long time to make them.
love this new format and i hope you're doing well with your addiction and mental health, all the best!
I agree with everything you said. The only thing I’d add is that part of the reason the 2 is dying is height. As you correctly pointed out, taller and taller players are developing perimeter skills as opposed to big man skills. Ideally, you need to be around 6’8 to be an effective wing in the NBA these days. Teams can’t afford having 2 6’5 or under guys in the line up. If you can score and are undersized, but also can’t really play the one. The best you can hope for is being a back up one.
Also: I’ve always believed small ball officially started with the Heat as well. I’d say the Lakers (with Odom) followed by the Magic (with Hedo Turkoglu and Rashard Lewis) were what gave it intrigue.
Odom had so much talent but mentally not mature enough. If he has Kobe's mindset, he would be way better than Kobe because he is physically gifted.
The idea behind the evolution of positions is a good way to put into words what the media and fans have been discussing for the previous 5-6 years and its a great way to look into the future. I've always been uncomfortable looking at a 2 and seeing them "carry" a team because it seems impossible without a good facilitator by your side, and I'm glad to hear that this seems to be a big change.
Also, not a necessary insight, but you look like a mix between the Technology Connections youtuber and late season Timothy Magee from NCIS. That's it.
Man your fucking right
Could it be argued that “traditional” shooting guards are less valuable now because the pace is higher, and teams score more points in general?
The first guy that I can remember breaking the PF model was prime Shawn Kemp. At the time, the prototypical PF was Charles Barkley and other similar guys like Dennis Rodman and Larry Johnson. Muscular, fast but not agile, rebound and post up focused. The Reign Man was a 6'10 PF on defense but he could run the floor like a Wing and could stretch the floor a bit(by 90's standards) with a decent mid range game.
Kevin Garnett also helped change the position. He was tall, thin, quick and could shoot away from the basket.
@@christianstylz6158 He is a beast
If you were to guess another position to "die" / be remodeled. Which position would it be?
Personally, I think we are gonna see it at the point guard position over the next decade. (More so in the sense of a small guard, like a CP3, IT, Nash, )
Yes! The fixation with the "true point guard" will endand combo guards will become the norm.
Even Isiah Thomas and Isaiah Thomas were combo, tiny Archibald too
@@benjespina "true point guard" stopped since a moment, GM and owners realize that true PG as your 1st or 2nd option don't win you chip unless you're a point forward like Magic. The only one who did it is Zeke and even him has shooting guards kind performance ( most points in a quarter in playoffs history) and stats ( 26-5-3) when he won ( basically you can't distinguish his FMVP stats from Dumars FMVP stats)
@@benjespina”true point guards” died out a long time ago. If you’re a point guard and can’t shoot 3’s you can’t even get on a G league team anymore (with exceptions)
@@donnyg9993Could Rajon Rondo be the last of those to have a significant career in the league?
I'm so glad to see you've come out swinging for this new stage of your life, Rusty! Keep up the good work!
Your new format is awesome, vids like this are really worth watching. I like the way you evolved the channel, good job!
I think that instead of OG Anunoby, Scottie Barnes is the example that I would go to for the future of shooting guards. He’s an excellent defender and (this year) an excellent shooter. He is also good enough to be a very good-great secondary playmaker, which I think is the main point that might have been missed in the video. Overall though, great video Rusty, I can’t wait to see more.
Scottie is not a shooting guard lol.
He’s started nearly every game at the 2 for the Raptors so if you think he’s not a shooting guard you clearly didn’t watch the video.
Scottie Barnes is a 4 in my eyes.
@@samoso6979just like what rusty said he just gonna be a wing which can be the 2-4
As a biologist and a basketball fan that Darwinism comparison was awesome and totally echoed my own perspectives. I would argue that in truth, the game will break down over time to really big wings. Point guards are definitely useful, but dudes like Luka who are somewhat of a point forward are pretty ideal. Above Luka in terms of what I expect a star player to look like in about 20 years is Jayson Tatum. Tall, fast, great on defense, willing to make the right play, and an excellent shooter and cutter. I expect to see a lot more “two way” forwards in the near future that overtake the shooting guard position, and eventually the point guard position.
YES. Felt this myself for years now. As soon as we started to see so many players 6’8” and up who could do “PG” things when they had the ball? Only seemed logical to think that when there is enough of them that’s what it’s all gonna be?
"what I expect a star player to look like in about 20 years is Jayson Tatum. Tall, fast, great on defense, willing to make the right play, and an excellent shooter and cutter. "
That's basically Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant.
@@joaopescusa he's talking about a 6'9 player doing that not a 6'4-6'6 player doing it, there's already player like that, but what he's talking about is basically LBJ or PG13
mah man, pg is not great on defense, and his very average offense wise, I'd take a 6'6-6'7 SG who excelled at that than a mid level player like pg.@@paquinraino8180
@@joaopescusa Fr fr, but Jayson is taller than the two of them
honestly I am not THE biggest fan of your prior videos, but I understand how much research goes into doing these new types of videos that you are trying to do and in all honesty (with me as mentioned not being so much into your content) this is a great video and a really good analysis, and I cannot wait what is in store for next, keep it up and great job
12:03 That's fucking amazing!!!! NOW the modern format makes sense!!! If you have a jokic who can shoot, his guard aka the big will be pulled out of the paint opening the way for everyone including the big if he can drive. Now a big with better fundamentals become necessary and you dont need a guy that big anymore since rebounding will be less likely due to easy points, and then comes Gsw with Draymond green.
When you focus too much on getting good on how things are already done you lose the chance to break the mode and create something even better and exciting, most of the times simply because we lack confidence to try and persuade. I think Dirk gave them the hint on what they were lacking.
This is the best basketball evolution doc I’ve seen in my life. Great job!!!
The existence of Aaron Gordon and Anthony Edwards prove that neither PF nor SG are “dying”
In the case of Edwards, is it a case where he’s a better shooter than the player who plays point guard next to him, and that player is a better passer?
I mean Gordon was a SF for years and now thrives as a "new age" PF
aaron gordon is a good example that the classic PF are dying. hes a modern PF, dude. and Ant, ok, i can agree, hes a true SG, but still its a dying breed
@@cesarbarbosa8875 No he’s a PF who played at SF for many years
This is a great analysis, but one guy that's worth mentioning in the preamble is Robert Horry. Drafted as a 6'9 small forward, he played that position his first two years in the league and won a championship in 1994. In 1995, the Rockets traded their All-Star power forward Otis Thorpe for a wing, and moved Horry to the power forward position. They'd win a championship that year with four shooters and Hakeem. A year later, Horry found himself paired with Shaq and won another three championships, before going to the Spurs and winning another two with Tim Duncan. While he wasn't a true "stretch forward," Horry could guard down to the wings, help on centers, and had three point shooting range in an era where that wasn't really what a "traditional" 4 did.
You may have a point here. But bear in mind you can't fully explain Horry's legacy with logic. The very fabric of space and time used to bend to accommodate his legend.
He played with Hakeem,Shaquille,Duncan that's why he got the open looks. He struggled to create offense on his own.
Was anybody else super happy when the arranged Miami Super Team lost in the finals, twice? I even was a Wade and James fan before, due to their sheer talent one just had to watch them, but me being from Switzerland/Europe, I was so fed up already with the teams with the most money/the best players always winning in football/soccer. Warriors and Durant ruined the Cavaliers Warriors Finals for me, it was 1-1, the best 2 players in the league going at each other, and then one of the teams just buys the 3rd best player in the world, ah come on...
I was happy when the Spurs spanked the Heat. That Spurs team was so good, and didn't have the Heat's ego problems.
Finally someone who put some respect on Steve Kerr’s name. Kerr’s game plan of offball screens for curry and klay with green ball handling opened them up for 3s and faster and more scoring opportunities. And you gave them credit for defense no one talks about how great they were at defense when you look at their defensive rating ranks during their 2014-2017 pre kd run they did good post kd but they became a true superteam with him. Respect.
Good to see you see you back old friend. I can relate with the weed addiction too but I’m also stopped and it been good for me. You’re not fighting these battle alone dude!
While I think the PG/Wing trio/C is a good take, don't forget about the other teams who are doing a PG Duo type of approach and finding varying success. Celtics doing the best with it rn, Dallas has quite the offense with their duo, OKC and Atlanta has potential to grow if they can get some better forwards or develop their current ones faster. Also, where does this leave SGs that aren't quite great passers, but have high scoring potential like Anthony Edwards or a bench player like Tim Hardaway Jr.? Nice video Rusty.
good point. Rockets could have potentially won at least one championship with that Harden CP3 duo
so what about a guy like derozan
@@tipsy09 Well... Go look at Chicago's record xD
they got two obsolete players in their starting lineup lol@@tavistaite8592
Joel Anthony is one of those players who seems bad but actually played a large role in that team. Played a lot of defense and made a lot of hustle plays.
Very True
Hustle isn’t a stat so he probably has a worse box score than his value in that regard
The one thing I will say about the team structure proposal of a PG, 3 wings, and a big, is that, as you have said multiple times on your channel, you cannot fully rely on one person creating your offense to win a championship. You are going to have to have a base level of creation and playmaking from at least one of your other starters.
Bingo, this was the Knicks issue in the playoffs
I agree on this evolution but we will always see exceptions. It all depends on the skills, skill level and chemistry of the individual players on the court. Eventually you will see that exception and the old layout on a title winning team. But the game is evolving and I love the way some of the European players remind us all that the game can be exciting watching the unstoppable moves some of these guys have. It’s not just about your 46 inch vertical and monster dunks. It’s still a game of knowledge and skill and that’s why I still love it.
casual here (& a fairly new fan of basketball) and the only position I understood fully was a center. been binge watching your stuff man. I like the way you break things down. you explained the positions and their purposes very well. thanks for helping me understand the game itself better. it’ll enhance my experience actually watching the games. fr thanks 🙏
Love the new format! It's crazy to think that SGs will go the way of the dodo. Twenty years ago, that was probably the most hyped position with Kobe, McGrady, Vince and AI. All good things must come to an end, however.
Lol for real, no superstar shooting guards anymore really
And most those guys played the 3 as well yes?
@@billblaski9523 no.
@@billblaski9523 I misread yer comment. Yes. They occasionally played up a position, but they were primarily twos.
@@bobhollywood4093Wouldn’t the shooting guard be more valuable if points are more scarce?
Alternative take: PG position already died. The "pass first" PG had always been the traditional role. The advent of "shoot first" point guards really just meant a shooting guard is bringing the ball up. NBA teams are built around superstars. Those superstars play-make. The superstars that are not centers are called point guards.
Current NBA is ordinarily, but not necessarily, A SG with two SF and a C.
That might just be semantics because it still agrees with the premise. Regardless, a great video and breakdown! I enjoy hearing from people who understand the game.
Exactly my thoughts as well. Sure, guards that can score but not playmake are dying out, but guards that can playmake but not score have already been dead.
@@salacommander2674Would Jason Kidd or Rajon Rondo be the last player of that caliber that could playmake but not really score?
The point guard evolved before this generation arguably.
@@fortynights1513
Yeah those guys are definitely some of the last ones
@@fortynights1513 I would day so. They seemed like the last of that type. And yeah I would also say Allen Iverson is the one that revolutionized the position change.
I feel like Aaron Gordon really is the purest example of what a power forward is. Big, fast, athletic, can dunk the SHIT out of the ball, and can shoot juuuuuuust enough to where he's not a liability.
Amazing analysis brother, i believe you're 100% right. You won't hear a take like on this on Espn.
Absolutely incredible video. Loved your old long form videos and I’m sure I’ll love the new ones even more
Basketball is dead sport i rather pickleball
Love the video and where the channel is going! If anything, I'd note that the chapter cards are a little long on my end (like Chapter 2: What is even is.. was like 10 seconds), but otherwise excited for the future
I don’t know how I’m just discovering your channel but this is masterful work!!! Thoughtful analysis & great content! Much better than what we get now on the daily sports shows!
Nowadays, the ideal team is as follows: the PG is required to be a combo guard (score and playmake). 2-3 are all swingmen (sg-sf tweener that can defend and shoot) and a stretch big
Been watching for a couple years and this is the best video you’ve ever made. Good work Rusty
Fantastic video. Can’t wait for what’s next!
This was absolutely great. Really happy with the new format, something i can be invested in for 40 minutes. I hope that you are in a better mind state, and that you finding friends around you. I also hope that you found help and got out of the hole that depression makes your life. Weed is a real addiction, it is easier to fight than other addictions but it is still an addition. It makes people more depress, and reduces motivation. Their is actual science behind it, so reducing the levels of weed you consume or cutting out for a while will help. In pandemic i was in a similar hole, and cutting weed out of my life really help. Im happy you move out to a new home and you feeling better.
I think on the topic of the video. The Power foward and shooting guard are nowadays kind of lost positions. With the less specified roles what make them special, kind of been hibrid high scoring positions have lost relevance. Nowadays other positions do the same, score a lot, capability to defend multiple positions. I think that explains why they are disappearing. SF was always the more hybrid position, so it has somehow also disappear. Now all that three positions are merging into the foward positions as you saying. The only two positions that still make sense are C and PG. C is defensive anchor and rebounder, PG is the ball handler and playmaker. They will never disappear but all the other three have merge into a nothingness XD
This is a brilliant video. Well articulated and paced. Great work 🤘🏾🤘🏾
R buckets you nailed it ! Great show with tons of insight . Awesome job one if the best I've seen in a minute
Love the discussion, but my twolves kinda just spit in this face atm. 2 5's and a true 2. Now one of our 5's can shoot, the other protects the rim, and our two is looking like a generational player.... but thess are the twolves so im scared to believe it will stay good. But the ride this season has been fun so far
This is my second watch and the video goes so fast that it doesn't even feel like 40 mins. Really love it!! ♥️
I love the long form story. This story really excels with this type of story telling
the 2-4 look identical now. Shooting guards aren't dying, they're just merging into the ambiguous wing spot, or they get really ball dominant and play point. If any position is dying, it's the traditional pass first PG. If you run plays through your non 1 superstar, you can just swap him for another generic wing shooter/cutter type and put even more pressure on the opponent on both sides.
Not that pass first point guards aren’t an essentially dead archetype, but that probably wasn’t brought up here because it’s death was years ago (possibly early 2010’s?)
One of the best pieces of basketball content I’ve seen in quite awhile. Excellent work. Great to me that you ended it as an opportunity for open discussion.
I’ve been sensing what you are espousing as well. I don’t currently have much to argue about.
I’m an avid spurs fan and I’m watching a failure of a point forward happen in front of my eyes with the experiment with sochan… it would appear the league might turn into a bunch of point guards with length and high value playmaking ability with scoring and dynamic centers.
The roster construction of what I would consider high value add players tend to be one or the other with a lot of tremendous defensive talent and pure athleticism coupled with the 3 pt consistency at the other “positions”.
Quality rim protection and length will always be valuable. As will ball handling and decision making with the ones with the ball in their hand.
This video was absolutely exceptional and it has inspired me to subscribe. Great job, sir. Your analysis was excellent and great food for thought.
Great video, though your reasoning why the SG position is going to disappear kinda contradicts your reason why SF will not disappear.
You said that the small forwards will not disappear because “look, even the PFs gradually became SFs, so that means it’s a superior position”.
But your point with shooting guards is “all PGs became more like SGs, and there’s non need for two players to do the same thing”. If we recount to earlier that exact thing could have been said about SFs: “Now that PFs become more skilled at passing shooting and even dribbling there’s no actual need for a SF which is exactly that but a little smaller”.
I believe that it’s either both SFs and SG are getting replaced and that means they’re obsolete, or they are both mimicked by other positions which means that they are both optimal.
I am 44 years old and haven't been a passionate follower of the NBA since 1998. I still watch the NBA today to witness how the game will evolve into. I have to say it is interesting how the game has generic set of skilled wing players with no traditional positions anymore.
The position isn't needed because of the reliance on 3 point shooting. You don't need a underbasket rebounder if an off placed long distance shot bounces outside the key.
Could it be said that as shooting percentages went up, rebounding became less important?
Brah, this is an excellent vid of the highest quality. Very well researched.
My thoughts exactly! I was watching the finals and the mavs getting dogwalked by the Celtics, and it made me think about this. If you have a point who doesn't play solid defense then it puts more of a focus on having solid defenders at the 2. Derrick White is a great example of this, and I think that guys like Tony Allen with that hardnosed skillset would dominate in this era