I find the history of Jin’s placement rather amusing. Before the game came out, he was considered busted. When the game actually came out however, opinions on him dropped not because he was significantly worse but because the early top tiers were even sillier than him. Then as time went on, the other top tiers got nerfed but Jin stayed relatively the same, resulting in him being considered one of the best again. Merry Christmas everyone.
I think he is looked down by a lot of us, for simply his reputation from previous games on being difficult. But as time goes by, people start to realize that he became easy, and giga buffed. The combination of those 2, on an already good character in theory, makes him busted in T8.
@jaleelkahn7032 I don't feel as threatened vs clive vs someone like Drag. With clive i just throw my power crush if he tried to shift in my face forcing him to use his low damage leg sweep which clive players know if blocked then it's fully launch punishable
What does tmm say when he doesnt know the matchup? that character is perfect, can do everything and cheap. what does he say when he likes the character? that he is honest, not so strong, fundamental and you must know the game to play him well. nothing changes
plus you know how kazyua can do a follow if his 112 hits at a specific distance at the wall? clive can do that to with his 12 and it can follow up into f1+2
I think the biggest weakness with Clive’s small tekken is that it’s all so linear. His big moves track a lot but once you get into phonebooth brawl range I step him all day long.
But when the round starts clive can just spam his mids because its safe asf n cant be stepped so matter what when that round start clive will always be at advantage 😂
You guys know he has the highest wr in ranked right? He is not talking about pro Level here, dvj has alot of bs that you have to Deal with. Its just not good when you meet pros etc bc they counter it, and he does not have good universal moves. Giving him good universals rn is like giving yoshi good universal Tools (we know how that went)
f1+2 is -8 and he lands right in front of you. He crumbles to pressure. His parry is nowhere near good enough to mitigate that weakness. Every other big move (b1+2, 1+2, b4) is also incredibly minus. He gives up his turn every time he tries something funny. So make use of that.
@@reign9933both things can be true and most would say they are. Clive is absolutely bonkers and has tons of god buttons. Yoshi is objectively a top 5 character but he isn't completely braindead reliant on two moves
@@marcindamian7329 true but ive been plagued by performance issues and have yet to find a fix maybe until SQUEENIX fixes it but given their track record.. :(
Funnily enough, Kazuya in smash bros is what made me graduate from being a smelly little smash kid into an even smellier grown Tekken man. Never looked back.
In the demo clive managed to be the most cardboard character even in his own verse, cannot fathom why this package of mid got this slot over Kupka or someone in his game with personality and screen presence
This is what would happen if Dante from DMC would come into the game pretty much. The stuff you can do in FFXVI, I'm surprised it's so accurate in Tekken
F1+2 needs a tracking nerf badly. A safe heat engaging, heat launching, wall splatting mid with THAT much range should have at least one more downside other than he loses his turn. Make it committal. Right now, Clive can just use f1+2 and 1 low and play all of Tekken.
Clive is so weird because I see the vision of where he should be. If the parry is tuned down and given more cointerplay along with some tracking nerfs he will be perfectly fine.
I fucking hate these stack up mechanics, they should revert to no boosters at all for all characters, maybe only adjust damage output a little bit imo..
In order to stack that meter up Clive needs to actively give up damage dozens of times throughout the match, it's more of a fun party mechanic to draw in new player, no serious player would rely on that. His F1+2 and power crush are way bigger problem.
again, no one is asking for devil jin's df1 to be neutral on block lmao. -3 instead of -6 is not a big ask, and the follow up should at least be a natural if its going to be a -9 high. but that's the extent of the buffs devil jin mains are asking for. you can get rid of his b3 and samsara for non hard commit neutral tools and decent pokes besides his trash stand 1 and -10 bf1,2. you made an entire video dismantling him by ssr duck os and still downplay how mediocre he is
Just to pu my opinion out there, I dont think these tier lists make sense 90% of the time.The times it does make sense is when youre playing in the aboslute highest ranks. If youre a newer player or someone who is trying to find a new main, if youre not top rated in the world then play who you think is cool, because at the end of the day players vary in skill even in high ranks. If you can master a character youll do fine. Clear example is in this video ^ he mentions tournament players like 3 mins into the video. 90% of us are not tournament players so dont go off the tournament meta
You’re 100% correct. I think most content creators have made so many tier lists that they don’t even mention that it’s really only applicable to the highest level anymore, they just assume everyone already knows that lol
@@billyhorchel5429 Yeah exactly and for games like marvel rivals for example its TERRIBLE because you got bronze and silver players thinking they know the meta and telling people who to play when they all still learning the game.
@@brayden1275 i dont get your first comment tbh because new players are not looking at tier list and doesn't care. the only people who are looking at tier list are people going up in ranks/getting confirmation bias vs the character they do not like. in fighting games there are more experienced players than new players either new to fighting games or new to tekken.
Earlier I was a little bit sad that my character doesn't get those tokens with Eddie DLC. Then Heihachi came out and we were introducing with yet another strange mechanic. But now I am actually glad that I play straight classic Tekken character. With zero projectiles, zero meters, zero invisibility, zero tokens, zero swords, zero weapons and with actually martial art. I have played Tekken for almost 30years now, but I swear if new VF will be good with actual fight not sword welding fantasy jumping I will consider switching.
I hate Clive, I didn't like him during the trailer, and I don't like him after playing against him. Any character that has pokes that can hit from Africa, infinite wall carry, a god parry, and a bunch of projectiles buttons and at least one being homing is 100% too much. He should have next to no homing with how far away he can hit you.
37:12 I thought he was gonna seriously break down azucena like he did with every other character but this all he says😭 but tbh I feel like main man doesn't really care much about azu regardless cause even with arsalans tier list, he put her bottom 6 and main man agreed, and most people prob don't care much abt her rn cause barely anyone plays her unless they love the character
god forbid devil jin having proper poking mids and lows other than bf21 and not having to rely on gimmicks. Dvj is 1 df1 buff away from being a totally broken nightmare character
I don’t think Clive is broken but definitely needs some drawbacks to the absurd range , but that’s his character all they have to do is just tune down the homing and I think he’s pretty solid
Yeah I think the fixes are simple and he would still be good. F1+2 you could make completely linear and it would still be good. They can give him slight tracking to his weak side if they want to throw him a bone. Just make it so that if you block the powercrush, Clive goes right in your face so you can punish easily. Make zantetsuken level 5 60 damage raw instead. Still a good chunk of damage. If they want they can improve the hit box or frame data of his df1 to compensate. Boom done. He is still a good character
I really don't care about Clive's F1+2 but jesus, his powercrash is the most broken thing what I ever saw in tekken. It's so much broken as a some akuma's mixups from t7. Delete push back from this thing or make it more than -13 (-15 or even more like paul deathfist)
I think the simple solution is to just make sure that if you block the powercrush, Clive moves himself right into your face so you can punish. Easy fix I’d say
Lol just a month ago the tierlist of tmm had kuma at #16 and king was top 5. Then arslan put out a tier list, and TwT happened and look at this list. No major oatch in between. Of course as tmm said these are only opinions and everyone is entitled to their own, but people should see this and really realize that the words of pro’s, streamers, etc, should be taken with a HEAVY grain of salt. It can change anytime and everyone in tekken 8 is more than viable.
No, it's more like tmm words are worthless. He already did a video like this and he downplayed Clive like crazy. Dragunov is always top 1 no matter what. He lost 1 set against lee and put him in top 5. He is a complete clown.
@ That’s a bit much. Let’s not get it twisted-TMM has years of experience and consistently produces high-quality content. Beyond being a great player, he’s also an entertaining creator who has openly acknowledged his own mistakes or evolving perspectives. My original point was simply to highlight that even seasoned players can change their opinions over time. This is why we shouldn’t rely too heavily on tier lists or online videos to form definitive opinions. Every character has potential (like Kuma), and some may not be as oppressive as initially believed (such as Heihachi or King).
@B3NYG mainman is too emotional and biased. And he never acknowledged any mistakes. Care to make any examples? He is a lot less whiny than tag 2 and the first 5 years of Tekken 7, but he is still incredibly emotional and whiny. He underplays and overplays lots of characters. Like kazuya, Paul and bryan are ALWAYS bad to mid tier at best. The characters he likes are never strong until it becomes so obvious that he can't play dumb anymore, like with Leroy and Jin. I don't remember well but isn't this like the first time he has Jin so high up in top 3 or top 5? (Not counting the last tier list, which is the same exact one he has now, minus Clive). He also downplays like crazy any characters arslan ash uses because he is a Pakistani glazer. He downplayed like crazy Marduk too. Meanwhile dragunov suddenly isn't top 1 all of a sudden because he saw that he is only top 11 most played and bottom 9 win/loss ratio. Because he doesn't make up his mind from playing unless it's some knee jerk reaction like lee being top 5 after losing, it's always after some tournament or some data gets released, as if that has ANY impact on what everyone sees online. And his vendetta against Dragunov is pathetic at this point, all because he lost a few deathmatches in Tekken 7 when he was bottom 3... That's just sad. He admitted Dragunov sucked only just before Tekken 8 came out.
I really like how Clive turned out. I lose 70% of my matches against this character but I'm more entertained than frustrated. He's definitely a weird character to see in tekken, but I think it's a good thing to have that one odd character in the roster.
Tbh, i’d rather play against Clive only for the rest of my life than playing against a Yoshimitsu even once a year. To me he’ll always be the odd character, even if the next guest is Goku
I feel like characters that utilize weapons are the only characters that I’d consider odd for Tekken everyone else is fair game. (With the exception of Aliza) In Tekken 7 they had Noctis, and Negan I’d argue they were the only odd characters in the past game. I’d also say the 2D/meter characters were odd in Tekken but I’d argue it made them better characters.
What are your wishes for season 2 in detail in terms of balancing, game design etc. Lil majin made a video, would be interresting to also hear your opinion. Like a 1 year review and wishlist for the second year of tekken 8.
Panda is not down there because of 1 move. She is down there because she is obsolete. She probably places nearer to Kuma but the similarity is just too high that there is not a lot of point for playing her competitively.
Apparently db1+2 is enough and rumor has it that he deals a lot of damage (?). And also mixup against the wall, where the low would hit you for a whopping 40 (and change) damage.
Tmm is (antonym word for downplay) Claudio. After this video, i checked world tour statistic, Claudio was picked 33 times(5th most popular), has 45% winrate ( yoshi was picked 2 times, 100% winrate). It seems to his pickrate is due strong enough and easy basic character with really strong mids, and it says that Claudio is strong and good character, but definitely not top 5) Btw, Rangchu took 1st place with Kuma…
@@shatter5922 I don't mind statistics when they're backed by anything you can measure outside of "pro player did something". Iv'e seen him repeat the same things about some character which are completely wrong and easy to demonstrate. Claudio was significantly better in T7, especially compared to the field, and lost practically all his counter hit tools (around 6 moves) , his launching low (with Starburst), and a great mid he had (ff1+2), but appearanntly db1+2 is the move that does everything and is impossibly oppressive. Claudio is strong, but I wouldn't put him anywhere near the top 5, or top 10 for that matter
My highest rank before Clive was Kishin with Paul and i've been playing Paul for hundreds of house and then within 20 hours of playtime on Clive I reached Bushin already and I think I can go further. Part of why he's so strong for me is he's just so easy to use, his inputs are easy and his gameplan is easy with his Pheonix stance and range control. Like with Paul you need to run up to the opponent to threaten demoman or deathfist but Clive can basically run up for free by using his transition into pheonix off his attacks.
I fought bushin braindead ret ards and I couldn't do anything. 39 def, ZERO skill, footsies, sidesteps, nothing. They just spammed 50/50s from full screen and the armored move from across the screen and I couldn't do anything. Once you have a bit of frames, parry or moves just whiff on him (lee's D3 doesn't CH his 1+2, just whiffs).
Devil jin was suppose to be a mid range-long range monster but weak close up like clive hench most kit ends in resetting neutral but devs screwed up and made him trash. Guess we now know all the plan went to clive(edgy, dark clothes and has wings)
Amazing tierlist, only one i could potentially see a bit higher would be Raven cuz i feel like hes not really figured out by 99% of players. Or at least i personally have absolutely no idea about what he can and cant do, neeeever see the guy xD
F1+2 : Medium ( you cant jump, cant duck) , safe on block ( -8 : you can use later a parry vs move with 12 frame and more and you can duck too) , track move right and left , the move freeze too and you cant do nothing, use the sword and you cant use parry, Heat Engage and a launcher in Heat Engage . Do you wanna a counterplay for this move? Yes! Parry and dont move , OH , WAIT... CHIP DAMAGE... Ye, the move without heat burst, have the chip damage too. 0 counterplay, Sorry my dear TheMainManSWE, but this character is not tier A, but is top 5 :)
You wouldn't even bother trying to parry this guy, the move is faster than 20 frames, so it's not really reactable, and his sword makes me just avoid parrying because weapons can't be parried. Even the counterplay ignoring chip damage is just unrealistic.
@@atlascallisto1461 I explained myself badly. I meant that Clive can parry after the f+1+2. I really meant to say that, if you parry this blow, you can't even try to look for a poke or try to take control of the pressure with moves like the df+1, because Clive is in -8 and therefore also has time to parry you. The only move you can try to pull afterward are the classic 10-frame jabs, but if he predicts them, he ducks and throws you. That's what I meant. It's really crazy, the strongest move in the game where there is no type of counter play, you can't even afford the luxury of blocking the move because it does damage to you even if you block.
I think you can't give a accurate rating of Reina "YET" she is a newcomer and has a huge movelist and i truly believe nobody not even the best players in the world, have mastered Reina and all her stances. You could technically go infinite routes on her stance options with cancels and stance switches. Everybody just plays her like a rush down Character when she is more like Mixup, stance character.
4:27 mid range reach around 😅 full launch " I DONT KNOW WHY!?!" .......😮...this is what i mean. I know why lol ecause the character is messed up but instead of content creators saying that, they are just sliding by it. The editors to. Seems like either you KNOW the buffs are coming and just living the moment or youd rather not say the way youb truly feel. ... Am i wrong 😮 please somebody, help 😢 Im here just for 18:35 ..Claudio main here 😊
Nope, Clive is one of the character that takes skills. I don't got the Year 1 Pass, but I bought Clive day 1 on actual release. And I'm being 100% honest here.
@@scoobydoobydoo7401it’s downplay. Clive is stupidly busted. The fact people say “he’s mid” “not that strong” “a tier” is fucking bonkers to me. This dude breaks Tekken in almost every way.
@@Plutonic_Blue..... lol no he doesn't, he has good range and great neutral control and whiff punishment. No dangerous combo damage outside his Z meter that you have to sacrifice a LOT of damage & control to get, below average block punishment, horrible poking and basically no good panic moves other than his b3 which is insanely easy to bait out and launch. I mean this actually unironically..... learn the match up
Are you nuts? He has insanely good damage, absolutely owns neutral, has the best ranged moves in the game, wild tracking and a parry that's better then Asuka... Wild@@thmistrapillay1811
leo is amazing but, i dont see him having a lot of bs moves. so while ur trying to block, u just have to guess what bs ur opponent throws at u. its a high knowledge char but u still have bad match up against chars that can avoid ur moves or punish u for over extending.
My most used characters including Clive seem to still be doing well...although I hate to say this but after playing the Tekken 6 version of Alisa I actually PREFER that version to any other version including Tekken 7s I've tried. Yeah I'm weird.
Yep. A single backdash destroys the threat of all his lows, and the ones that do hit with range are 0 on hit so your follow-up better be d1+2 shoulder -- oh wait, you get launched for that on block. Oops, turns out buffing his damage again isn't what the character needed at all.
@RationalMinded Yeah, he's got damage, he just needs his old stuff back cause of that the Demo Man is useless and Paul hasn't got good homing options now too.
@@supersaiyan4578 He definitely needs his demo man range back, or make d4 safer on block because it's unreliable now, even when your opponent's back is to the wall. Ub2 was a homing move in Paul's gameplay trailer but was removed. The character can now be sidewalked both sides since his tracking is so bad. Idk how Paul passed initial play testing, honestly. He seems unfinished.
@@RationalMinded Yeah they could have just left him as he was in T7 and only added the heat stuff and the new rage art. But after seeing the S2 trailer I'm kinda confused on which route the devs are going for Paul.
@@supersaiyan4578 Same, but if I had to guess, it would be giving him more damage -- at least with that new tailspin he has from deep dive. Combos are nice but they don't win neutral. Either way, hope for the best. LOL.
To this day, as a Bryan player, i dont know why Bryan's Incinerator last hit got a buff in his Tracking, no joke, i have way more consistency hitting Incinerator against Lili or Reina, Characters that has really Strong movement, Incinerator just never whiffs
He really disappointed me! Since he started communicating with BAMKO, he has simply become toothless! The only thing is that he doesn’t keep silent about Jin’s players.
Something fun happened while I was playing Reina against Clive. He did a parry, I was already doing my cd1. So, obviously, his parry worked against my 1 (shoryuken). But then I pressed 3. His parry attack went below me, not hitting, and my 3 hit him right on his stupid head 🤣 I didn't expect that, it was cool
For the casual players that makes around 80 %, he is behind a paywall that makes him even more unpredictable. You cannot lab him. Imagine putting Dragonov as a new character behind a paywall. Bye bye
@@WilleWalla02you can check replays and take control of your character. But thats implies losing 2 milions times before having enough material to lab all his options. Nice change but not practical, or usefull
He's the opposite of dragunov, he's really dangerous if you give him space so always go really close and aggressive against him, also so far from what i saw most players keep using his fake pressure string without realizing its launch punishable
I hope season 2 bring some serious changes to safe on block heat engagers, it is beyond stupid xD. Clive's Forward, 1+2 ("Prominence") is so broken, i do not understand what the devs think when they release dlc characters so overpowered, i do understand you want people to play the character, but it is a competitive game, soo... Balance, where? xD hahah, gotta say i do love Clive alot, such an amazing move set, just in need of some much needed balancing ^^
Given that TMM is fully back on Devill Jin propaganda again, let me try to give a different perspective. What devil Jin needs is to finish his move list. Simply put, his damage output, while competitive, is not good enough considering the risk. ( I.e his total dependence on hellsweep, extremely risky defence buttons and weak neutral) That's why he needs to either deal more damage or make his gameplay less risky. While db1+2 mindgame is good, I would rather be in favour giving him heihachi/kuma damage than to make his damage potential reliant on db1+2. If the balance direction is to make him less riskier, then the good option would be to give him a df2 extension to his current df1 (it can be -6).
This is my rework wishlist for Devil Jin (doesn't have only buffs) df+1: start-up from 13f to 14f, adv on block from -6 to +1, 2 follow-up guaranteed on normal hit not just on counter. df+1,2: damage from 11,20 to 11,15. u+4 (samsara): active from f16 instead of f21, reduced push-back on block (less chance of a trade, more punishable) b+3: no longer a heat engager f,n,d,df+1+2: start up from 26f to 21f (becomes of some use especially in heat). I think those changes don't break the character but make his life less miserable.
@@gionnidigei I wouldnt agree necessarily with your changes but I appreciate the comment. I commented on this video because the history of this streamer's videos suggest anti-DVJ bias which is based on lack of knowledge about the character. I just wanted to explain the current state of Devil Jin. Ultimately it's Namco who decides the balance direction of the character and I kinda like Devil Jin design (while he is different than T7 version, he preserves his mode of offense which is based on waedash). Let's see how it goes but I wanted to play however small a part in countering the misinformation about the character.
@@rochaktimilsina6460 Every player has had his own experience and those suggestions are tailored to mine. But there are much more competent players who can give a more accurate feedback. As for the DVJ bias, "buff him" is the main current of thought thankfully, TMM has a 30-year Mishima experience and this has a weight in his judgements. Watching him playing DJ, you can feel the gigantic confidence he has and how much it pays off. If you are like me and have just entered the Tekken world the hardest way possible :D you're gonna think differently.
@@gionnidigei let's see how they change the game. Currently, the big problem with the offence game of Tekken 8 is that it is mostly based on chaining frames. Devil Jin doesn't operate like that ( the only Mishima to not to that btw). His offence is unique,although db1+2 could see some nerf on the first charge. And TMM framing of the character makes him look wildly strong than he actually is. ( He commits the crime of ommision lol) that's why I view his content as propaganda. And my suggestion of the changes to DJ is to make the same thing he already does less risky.
You can't side step ,can't parry, you only block and he gets free 50-50s all the time. The only gameplay so far against him is smash with all unfair tools you have and throw every 3 seconds. Boring as shit, pity you can't skip the fight when you see this
@@WilleWalla02 counter argument his mid options are too scary to even try to challenge and his toe kick during the step has a garaunteed WS1-2 on CH, So far the only way I could beat him is let him jizz all over me and have his way with me before he dishes out a punishable move for me to finally play
@@yannaedc5934 jin is by far the hardest character to pilot. imagine playing poker and your opponent is able to look into your cards the whole session. jin has no fancy moves and his moves are so extremely distinguishable that YOURE the problem when you cant see them from a mile away. without wall piss poor damage too. d2 is reactable and even if it gets nerfed, what does jin then truly have left? why do you want jin, who you all hate sooo much, be by far the weakest character in the game with your nerf wish list? t7 jin was pain to play and now t8 jin is balanced around b tier but keep on being delusional
@@AyCarp When they ask you to imagine poker but you never played poker ;( I like fighting him but I hate customized jins, they always seem to look so basic
One day I'd like to watch a tier list for beginner-intermediate players, where matchup knowledge is much lower, broken moves count more, most players can't break throws consistently and character difficulty is key.
Character difficulty usually isn't considered because (1) You can find green ranks doing the most absurd Comboes (but these guys will eventually rank up since they are closer to optimizing the character), or (2) The character difficulty comes in the game plan(Kazuya, Lee), not the execution. Also, by definition, tier lists don't count if you aren't the top 0.1% of the population. DVJ apparently has the highest win-loss ratio of the godfists in Ranked but nobody can make him work in tournaments. For tiers to apply to you, you have to be facing someone of equal skill level where both players have greatly optimised their character(this will almost always put you at a very high level by default).
Massive downplay by MainMan. Charcters with such reach, toolset, moves such as f1+2, best wall travel in the game, best combo damage in the game cannot be anywhere lower that S tier. TMM as always puts he’s favs down the tier list
Nah bro, clive is broken, top 5 mainly just because of how dumb he is. TMM has the habit of downplaying characters he's currently mains. In what kind of world is Kazuya suddenly above Xiaoyu. Lily? Hwoarang? Heihachi?? Heihachi is literally Kazuya... only on steroids@@yagami999913 Don't get me wrong, Kazuya is a VERY strong character. But his piloting and inconsistency puts him down the list alot compared to these other characters. Kazuya requires alot more actual gameplay effort to effectively work compared to the rest of the cast. Due to that fact alone Kazuya can't be put anywhere near close most of these dumb rewarding characters. Especially these waifu characters. Ain't no way
Clive's F1+2 so versatile it did my Taxes for me
Like "press b button to file taxes"🤣
It also wipes my ass, truly incredible
And his b1+2? Basically powercrush projectile lmao
Did you know it also gives you head? Did for me last night lol
All they have to do is to make it -10 on block so you cant spam it mindless anymore
Clive's range is just insane. It's like he was made for players who constantly whiff attacks with other characters.
Baby Tekken in other words lmao
Omg…..you’re right! That makes…so much sense!
6:27 "I don't want this video to be half an hour long" looks at video length, '44:53'. Classc
Content we here for
I find the history of Jin’s placement rather amusing. Before the game came out, he was considered busted. When the game actually came out however, opinions on him dropped not because he was significantly worse but because the early top tiers were even sillier than him. Then as time went on, the other top tiers got nerfed but Jin stayed relatively the same, resulting in him being considered one of the best again.
Merry Christmas everyone.
I think he is looked down by a lot of us, for simply his reputation from previous games on being difficult.
But as time goes by, people start to realize that he became easy, and giga buffed.
The combination of those 2, on an already good character in theory, makes him busted in T8.
truth is, jin is actually mid Tier and win statistics back that too
I’d a Jin over a Clive any day
@@dupla0392 true, i remember a simple combo from him would break your wrist, now it's basically b3->zen
@@AyCarp😂
"I hate Jin, but I love Clive"- TMM on the christmass eve of 2024
tbh as cancer as Clive is... Jin is propably still the worse offender.
@@pablotheimmortal6440 when you play against Clive you generally know that they just aren't experienced enough
@jaleelkahn7032 I don't feel as threatened vs clive vs someone like Drag. With clive i just throw my power crush if he tried to shift in my face forcing him to use his low damage leg sweep which clive players know if blocked then it's fully launch punishable
@@Superfoodcookie right now yes, there are God Clives running around with the most petty 50/50
Clive has an identity and clear strenghts and weaknesses, Jin has lost the identity he had back in T7 plus he has no weaknesses
10% new tierlist
90% muh prominence
Respectfully, calling those moves "Mid range" is the biggest under statement. Those moves are long range. Clive can hit you from across the screen.
It feels like he has Kunimitsu's qcf+1 range on everything.
What does tmm say when he doesnt know the matchup? that character is perfect, can do everything and cheap. what does he say when he likes the character? that he is honest, not so strong, fundamental and you must know the game to play him well. nothing changes
Did you not listen to anything he said on Kazuya? His main? 3 iq comment
@chumchum9899 did you not listen what he say about Bryan? Paul? Hwo? Heihachi? Clive? another internet NPC who thinks with not his brain but others
Source?
@@wwk_BRYAN OP OP HEEEELP 3+4 OP NERF PLS
Homing, MM, long range, wall splat, heat engager, full launch heat dash? And safe? C'mon Namco...
Namco: "You're right. Let's make it an unblockable!"
@@JunKazamaFanNamco..... hire this person!
plus you know how kazyua can do a follow if his 112 hits at a specific distance at the wall? clive can do that to with his 12 and it can follow up into f1+2
theyre probably under contract to make him as easy and effective as possible.
I think the biggest weakness with Clive’s small tekken is that it’s all so linear. His big moves track a lot but once you get into phonebooth brawl range I step him all day long.
kinda speaks how that’s his weakness… pretty standard stuff
But when the round starts clive can just spam his mids because its safe asf n cant be stepped so matter what when that round start clive will always be at advantage 😂
I feel like people hesitate to put Kuma in top10 cause its hard to imagine for this character to be this good, be he is
Dvj having a competitive df1 would make him a nightmare to play against? Are we serious bro
back to the mainman hating on devil jin for no reason.
Ye don't undestard that either
Coolest and most badass character ever treated like shit both by devs and community 😢
You guys know he has the highest wr in ranked right? He is not talking about pro Level here, dvj has alot of bs that you have to Deal with. Its just not good when you meet pros etc bc they counter it, and he does not have good universal moves.
Giving him good universals rn is like giving yoshi good universal Tools (we know how that went)
@@imonshrooms6866 kuma has the highest win rate in ranked (~55-57%), devil jin is maybe top 10-15 win rate (hovers around 50%).
So how are we gonna play against this? Do we just hope the clive user is stupid? He's got a lot of tools, range, and parries everything.
f1+2 is -8 and he lands right in front of you. He crumbles to pressure. His parry is nowhere near good enough to mitigate that weakness.
Every other big move (b1+2, 1+2, b4) is also incredibly minus. He gives up his turn every time he tries something funny. So make use of that.
The same way you play against other good characters? Punish correctly, outplay the opponent and develop mental stack.
@@AbstractReplayeruhm... what? His parry is the best in the game.
I love how he says that Lars' mixups are option selectable...
BUT THEN NEVER GIVES US THE OPTION SELECT!!
People be complaining about Clive like we aren't dealing with Yoshi since launch 😭
Yoshi is nothing compared to Clive.
Clive is pay to win.
@@yushakakarot150nothing without flash
@@yushakakarot150 LMAO Yoshi is literally top 5 and Clive is pay to win???😂😂😂
Yea cause Clive is much worse..
@@reign9933both things can be true and most would say they are. Clive is absolutely bonkers and has tons of god buttons. Yoshi is objectively a top 5 character but he isn't completely braindead reliant on two moves
Prominence needs to at least be -12
Which move is that ?
@@araratamedi F1+2
Merry Christmas mainman🎄blessings from Connecticut , US !
So stupid that Clive, who's a distance and offense-type, gets a better parry than Asuka who's a parry-type character 🤣
Clive made me buy ff16 this winter sale and no other guest character has done that. S tier in that aspect lol
same
Amazing game ngl
@@marcindamian7329 true but ive been plagued by performance issues and have yet to find a fix maybe until SQUEENIX fixes it but given their track record.. :(
Funnily enough, Kazuya in smash bros is what made me graduate from being a smelly little smash kid into an even smellier grown Tekken man. Never looked back.
In the demo clive managed to be the most cardboard character even in his own verse, cannot fathom why this package of mid got this slot over Kupka or someone in his game with personality and screen presence
This is what would happen if Dante from DMC would come into the game pretty much. The stuff you can do in FFXVI, I'm surprised it's so accurate in Tekken
fuck it, lets add Bayonetta 🤣
@@DivineMike379 Smash Bayonetta accident
(i'd smash Bayonetta LMAO)
@@DivineMike379let's get 2B while we're at it
This guy is way too safe!
Which guy exactly
@@saudf5921clearly clive half his moves is safe mid n half screen 😂 like wtf
@@chaunceywashington2493 i hate him he’s a Pay 2 Win Character
1:34 “quick rundown” 45 minutes lol
Im sick of these mfs saying hes weak
Just big heavy nerf on prominence and Clive is mostly fine.
No he is fkn not.
F1+2 needs a tracking nerf badly. A safe heat engaging, heat launching, wall splatting mid with THAT much range should have at least one more downside other than he loses his turn. Make it committal. Right now, Clive can just use f1+2 and 1 low and play all of Tekken.
Clive is so weird because I see the vision of where he should be. If the parry is tuned down and given more cointerplay along with some tracking nerfs he will be perfectly fine.
I fucking hate these stack up mechanics, they should revert to no boosters at all for all characters, maybe only adjust damage output a little bit imo..
It's too much for me. We already have the Heat System, why do we need characters to have even more power-ups?
It's literally just one move and he has to work for that stack it's not a big deal
In order to stack that meter up Clive needs to actively give up damage dozens of times throughout the match, it's more of a fun party mechanic to draw in new player, no serious player would rely on that. His F1+2 and power crush are way bigger problem.
again, no one is asking for devil jin's df1 to be neutral on block lmao. -3 instead of -6 is not a big ask, and the follow up should at least be a natural if its going to be a -9 high. but that's the extent of the buffs devil jin mains are asking for. you can get rid of his b3 and samsara for non hard commit neutral tools and decent pokes besides his trash stand 1 and -10 bf1,2. you made an entire video dismantling him by ssr duck os and still downplay how mediocre he is
Just to pu my opinion out there, I dont think these tier lists make sense 90% of the time.The times it does make sense is when youre playing in the aboslute highest ranks. If youre a newer player or someone who is trying to find a new main, if youre not top rated in the world then play who you think is cool, because at the end of the day players vary in skill even in high ranks. If you can master a character youll do fine. Clear example is in this video ^ he mentions tournament players like 3 mins into the video. 90% of us are not tournament players so dont go off the tournament meta
You’re 100% correct. I think most content creators have made so many tier lists that they don’t even mention that it’s really only applicable to the highest level anymore, they just assume everyone already knows that lol
Isnt that obvious
@mert2217 if it's obvious to you then it should be obvious this comment wasn't aimed towards you then mate
@@billyhorchel5429 Yeah exactly and for games like marvel rivals for example its TERRIBLE because you got bronze and silver players thinking they know the meta and telling people who to play when they all still learning the game.
@@brayden1275 i dont get your first comment tbh because new players are not looking at tier list and doesn't care. the only people who are looking at tier list are people going up in ranks/getting confirmation bias vs the character they do not like. in fighting games there are more experienced players than new players either new to fighting games or new to tekken.
Earlier I was a little bit sad that my character doesn't get those tokens with Eddie DLC. Then Heihachi came out and we were introducing with yet another strange mechanic.
But now I am actually glad that I play straight classic Tekken character. With zero projectiles, zero meters, zero invisibility, zero tokens, zero swords, zero weapons and with actually martial art.
I have played Tekken for almost 30years now, but I swear if new VF will be good with actual fight not sword welding fantasy jumping I will consider switching.
I hate Clive, I didn't like him during the trailer, and I don't like him after playing against him. Any character that has pokes that can hit from Africa, infinite wall carry, a god parry, and a bunch of projectiles buttons and at least one being homing is 100% too much. He should have next to no homing with how far away he can hit you.
when will you finally play Asuka?
37:12 I thought he was gonna seriously break down azucena like he did with every other character but this all he says😭 but tbh I feel like main man doesn't really care much about azu regardless cause even with arsalans tier list, he put her bottom 6 and main man agreed, and most people prob don't care much abt her rn cause barely anyone plays her unless they love the character
As an Azu main, she's definitely a labour of love and too many people hate her to bother 😭
she just isn't interesting. Like cofee.....great xd
I'm glad to see Mainman finally talk about Leo ! XD
Clive is broken and it won't take long for everyone to realize this.
god forbid devil jin having proper poking mids and lows other than bf21 and not having to rely on gimmicks. Dvj is 1 df1 buff away from being a totally broken nightmare character
damn harada X square really said fuck it we ball
I don’t think Clive is broken but definitely needs some drawbacks to the absurd range , but that’s his character all they have to do is just tune down the homing and I think he’s pretty solid
Yeah I think the fixes are simple and he would still be good.
F1+2 you could make completely linear and it would still be good. They can give him slight tracking to his weak side if they want to throw him a bone.
Just make it so that if you block the powercrush, Clive goes right in your face so you can punish easily.
Make zantetsuken level 5 60 damage raw instead. Still a good chunk of damage.
If they want they can improve the hit box or frame data of his df1 to compensate.
Boom done. He is still a good character
I really don't care about Clive's F1+2
but jesus, his powercrash is the most broken thing what I ever saw in tekken. It's so much broken as a some akuma's mixups from t7.
Delete push back from this thing or make it more than -13 (-15 or even more like paul deathfist)
I think the simple solution is to just make sure that if you block the powercrush, Clive moves himself right into your face so you can punish. Easy fix I’d say
Just block, ss or throw bro
Lol just a month ago the tierlist of tmm had kuma at #16 and king was top 5. Then arslan put out a tier list, and TwT happened and look at this list. No major oatch in between.
Of course as tmm said these are only opinions and everyone is entitled to their own, but people should see this and really realize that the words of pro’s, streamers, etc, should be taken with a HEAVY grain of salt. It can change anytime and everyone in tekken 8 is more than viable.
No, it's more like tmm words are worthless. He already did a video like this and he downplayed Clive like crazy.
Dragunov is always top 1 no matter what.
He lost 1 set against lee and put him in top 5. He is a complete clown.
@ That’s a bit much. Let’s not get it twisted-TMM has years of experience and consistently produces high-quality content. Beyond being a great player, he’s also an entertaining creator who has openly acknowledged his own mistakes or evolving perspectives.
My original point was simply to highlight that even seasoned players can change their opinions over time. This is why we shouldn’t rely too heavily on tier lists or online videos to form definitive opinions. Every character has potential (like Kuma), and some may not be as oppressive as initially believed (such as Heihachi or King).
@B3NYG mainman is too emotional and biased. And he never acknowledged any mistakes. Care to make any examples?
He is a lot less whiny than tag 2 and the first 5 years of Tekken 7, but he is still incredibly emotional and whiny.
He underplays and overplays lots of characters.
Like kazuya, Paul and bryan are ALWAYS bad to mid tier at best.
The characters he likes are never strong until it becomes so obvious that he can't play dumb anymore, like with Leroy and Jin.
I don't remember well but isn't this like the first time he has Jin so high up in top 3 or top 5? (Not counting the last tier list, which is the same exact one he has now, minus Clive).
He also downplays like crazy any characters arslan ash uses because he is a Pakistani glazer. He downplayed like crazy Marduk too.
Meanwhile dragunov suddenly isn't top 1 all of a sudden because he saw that he is only top 11 most played and bottom 9 win/loss ratio.
Because he doesn't make up his mind from playing unless it's some knee jerk reaction like lee being top 5 after losing, it's always after some tournament or some data gets released, as if that has ANY impact on what everyone sees online.
And his vendetta against Dragunov is pathetic at this point, all because he lost a few deathmatches in Tekken 7 when he was bottom 3... That's just sad. He admitted Dragunov sucked only just before Tekken 8 came out.
If the dev team starts handing out buffs next season even after we've been saying over and over "NO BUFFS ONLY NERFS".... i'll be pissed.
I really like how Clive turned out. I lose 70% of my matches against this character but I'm more entertained than frustrated. He's definitely a weird character to see in tekken, but I think it's a good thing to have that one odd character in the roster.
Tbh, i’d rather play against Clive only for the rest of my life than playing against a Yoshimitsu even once a year. To me he’ll always be the odd character, even if the next guest is Goku
Are the bears not odd characters? Or yoshimitsu?
@@JOEROCKYlive they're right up there, but clive is just on a different level with his eikon powers flashing everywhere on the screen.
That ONE odd character in the roster...
I feel like characters that utilize weapons are the only characters that I’d consider odd for Tekken everyone else is fair game. (With the exception of Aliza) In Tekken 7 they had Noctis, and Negan I’d argue they were the only odd characters in the past game. I’d also say the 2D/meter characters were odd in Tekken but I’d argue it made them better characters.
What are your wishes for season 2 in detail in terms of balancing, game design etc. Lil majin made a video, would be interresting to also hear your opinion. Like a 1 year review and wishlist for the second year of tekken 8.
kuma and panda are near identical except for 1 move, right? how can they be so far away on the tier list?
Panda doesnot have Bear wind god fist. Bear Wind god fist is a special mid. This move alone won Rangchu the TWT
Because bears in Heat is the defining factor.
Kuma's Heat Smash is 13f, and he also has the Bear Electric. These two alone causes the separation.
@@yellowscarlightningscream8347
I wouldn't say it was that move alone. I get the idea you're trying to drive, but he's won a TWT before with Panda.
Panda is not down there because of 1 move. She is down there because she is obsolete. She probably places nearer to Kuma but the similarity is just too high that there is not a lot of point for playing her competitively.
Clive is very high. I’ve seen a lot of people Even if my own circle get Golden ranks very quickly
6:26 doesn't want video to be 30 minutes long
I look down and check the time
*ponder*
Claudio top 5?
Apparently db1+2 is enough and rumor has it that he deals a lot of damage (?).
And also mixup against the wall, where the low would hit you for a whopping 40 (and change) damage.
Tmm is (antonym word for downplay) Claudio. After this video, i checked world tour statistic, Claudio was picked 33 times(5th most popular), has 45% winrate ( yoshi was picked 2 times, 100% winrate). It seems to his pickrate is due strong enough and easy basic character with really strong mids, and it says that Claudio is strong and good character, but definitely not top 5)
Btw, Rangchu took 1st place with Kuma…
@@shatter5922 I don't mind statistics when they're backed by anything you can measure outside of "pro player did something".
Iv'e seen him repeat the same things about some character which are completely wrong and easy to demonstrate.
Claudio was significantly better in T7, especially compared to the field, and lost practically all his counter hit tools (around 6 moves) , his launching low (with Starburst), and a great mid he had (ff1+2), but appearanntly db1+2 is the move that does everything and is impossibly oppressive.
Claudio is strong, but I wouldn't put him anywhere near the top 5, or top 10 for that matter
Claudio at least top 7
@@Leonykf as you say bro…
My highest rank before Clive was Kishin with Paul and i've been playing Paul for hundreds of house and then within 20 hours of playtime on Clive I reached Bushin already and I think I can go further. Part of why he's so strong for me is he's just so easy to use, his inputs are easy and his gameplan is easy with his Pheonix stance and range control. Like with Paul you need to run up to the opponent to threaten demoman or deathfist but Clive can basically run up for free by using his transition into pheonix off his attacks.
I fought bushin braindead ret ards and I couldn't do anything. 39 def, ZERO skill, footsies, sidesteps, nothing. They just spammed 50/50s from full screen and the armored move from across the screen and I couldn't do anything. Once you have a bit of frames, parry or moves just whiff on him (lee's D3 doesn't CH his 1+2, just whiffs).
Yeah, i agree that dvj needs no buff, but he needs to be nerf. The perfect is nerf his jab. Make it -15 on block. Simple
When are you done doing tricks on dragunov?
you mad bro?
Im so done on you hating on dj without any reason. Just vent on someone else for christ sake
both lars and devil jin need buffs idk what mainman is on about
forsen
We can’t have a normal df1 apparently
Coz he think he is kazuya, have all reason to hate jin and dvj
Naw the hate is on the players whining like they are bearing the cross of christ
Imagine Nina with Clive's f1+2!
Devil jin was suppose to be a mid range-long range monster but weak close up like clive hench most kit ends in resetting neutral but devs screwed up and made him trash. Guess we now know all the plan went to clive(edgy, dark clothes and has wings)
"I don't want this video to be half an hour long" then gives more than half an hour
I come to every tier list just to see my Leo get disrespected. Thank you TuhMenMan
I remember when u tried to say he was mid looool
I love the reach he has. Reach like that totally looks like it belongs in the game!!!
Amazing tierlist, only one i could potentially see a bit higher would be Raven cuz i feel like hes not really figured out by 99% of players.
Or at least i personally have absolutely no idea about what he can and cant do, neeeever see the guy xD
I fought a few of them already, but one Clive player showed me how godly his range game is. Totally shut me down. I got overwhelmed...lol
Why's Lee so low when he's currently just a better Steve?
Steve is better and safer
F1+2 : Medium ( you cant jump, cant duck) , safe on block ( -8 : you can use later a parry vs move with 12 frame and more and you can duck too) , track move right and left , the move freeze too and you cant do nothing, use the sword and you cant use parry, Heat Engage and a launcher in Heat Engage . Do you wanna a counterplay for this move? Yes! Parry and dont move , OH , WAIT... CHIP DAMAGE... Ye, the move without heat burst, have the chip damage too. 0 counterplay, Sorry my dear TheMainManSWE, but this character is not tier A, but is top 5 :)
You wouldn't even bother trying to parry this guy, the move is faster than 20 frames, so it's not really reactable, and his sword makes me just avoid parrying because weapons can't be parried. Even the counterplay ignoring chip damage is just unrealistic.
@@atlascallisto1461 I explained myself badly. I meant that Clive can parry after the f+1+2. I really meant to say that, if you parry this blow, you can't even try to look for a poke or try to take control of the pressure with moves like the df+1, because Clive is in -8 and therefore also has time to parry you. The only move you can try to pull afterward are the classic 10-frame jabs, but if he predicts them, he ducks and throws you. That's what I meant. It's really crazy, the strongest move in the game where there is no type of counter play, you can't even afford the luxury of blocking the move because it does damage to you even if you block.
I think you can't give a accurate rating of Reina "YET" she is a newcomer and has a huge movelist and i truly believe nobody not even the best players in the world, have mastered Reina and all her stances. You could technically go infinite routes on her stance options with cancels and stance switches. Everybody just plays her like a rush down Character when she is more like Mixup, stance character.
4:27 mid range reach around 😅 full launch " I DONT KNOW WHY!?!" .......😮...this is what i mean. I know why lol ecause the character is messed up but instead of content creators saying that, they are just sliding by it. The editors to. Seems like either you KNOW the buffs are coming and just living the moment or youd rather not say the way youb truly feel. ... Am i wrong 😮 please somebody, help 😢
Im here just for 18:35 ..Claudio main here 😊
shit he's exposing us 🐻
Is clive easy to play?
Nope, Clive is one of the character that takes skills.
I don't got the Year 1 Pass, but I bought Clive day 1 on actual release. And I'm being 100% honest here.
Idk if that's downplay or not but most ppl say he's easy
@@scoobydoobydoo7401it’s downplay. Clive is stupidly busted. The fact people say “he’s mid” “not that strong” “a tier” is fucking bonkers to me.
This dude breaks Tekken in almost every way.
@@Plutonic_Blue..... lol no he doesn't, he has good range and great neutral control and whiff punishment. No dangerous combo damage outside his Z meter that you have to sacrifice a LOT of damage & control to get, below average block punishment, horrible poking and basically no good panic moves other than his b3 which is insanely easy to bait out and launch. I mean this actually unironically..... learn the match up
Are you nuts? He has insanely good damage, absolutely owns neutral, has the best ranged moves in the game, wild tracking and a parry that's better then Asuka... Wild@@thmistrapillay1811
the biggest namco bootlicker loves Clive ? shocking!!
I bet PhiDX loves Clive too
NOOOOO YOU CANT CRITICIZE FULL SCREEN POWERCRUSH CANCER DLC RUSHDOWN THEY DID A FANTASTIC JOB PRAISE BAMCO 😒💅😩😒💅😒😩💅
@@clavicusvile1328Cringe + womp womp, Clive is peak lil bro
@@onyx3881 tekken player with a children's cartoon as his profile picture calling someone else cringe... peak irony
@@clavicusvile1328 you main man fanboys got shoe size IQ's
@@GamingNine1Kid my comment was literally agreeing with you and making fun of tmm...talk about a shoe sized IQ
leo is amazing but, i dont see him having a lot of bs moves. so while ur trying to block, u just have to guess what bs ur opponent throws at u. its a high knowledge char but u still have bad match up against chars that can avoid ur moves or punish u for over extending.
My most used characters including Clive seem to still be doing well...although I hate to say this but after playing the Tekken 6 version of Alisa I actually PREFER that version to any other version including Tekken 7s I've tried.
Yeah I'm weird.
The only thing that stops me from playing Leo is the dry af rage art. It feels like chewing on sawdust every time I use it
I just want Paul's demo man to be like T7 again, so that the man can have a decent 50/50.
Yep. A single backdash destroys the threat of all his lows, and the ones that do hit with range are 0 on hit so your follow-up better be d1+2 shoulder -- oh wait, you get launched for that on block. Oops, turns out buffing his damage again isn't what the character needed at all.
@RationalMinded Yeah, he's got damage, he just needs his old stuff back cause of that the Demo Man is useless and Paul hasn't got good homing options now too.
@@supersaiyan4578 He definitely needs his demo man range back, or make d4 safer on block because it's unreliable now, even when your opponent's back is to the wall. Ub2 was a homing move in Paul's gameplay trailer but was removed. The character can now be sidewalked both sides since his tracking is so bad. Idk how Paul passed initial play testing, honestly. He seems unfinished.
@@RationalMinded Yeah they could have just left him as he was in T7 and only added the heat stuff and the new rage art. But after seeing the S2 trailer I'm kinda confused on which route the devs are going for Paul.
@@supersaiyan4578 Same, but if I had to guess, it would be giving him more damage -- at least with that new tailspin he has from deep dive. Combos are nice but they don't win neutral. Either way, hope for the best. LOL.
I was happy with the balancing with the other 3 dlc characters he’s so overpowered abd cheesy
To this day, as a Bryan player, i dont know why Bryan's Incinerator last hit got a buff in his Tracking, no joke, i have way more consistency hitting Incinerator against Lili or Reina, Characters that has really Strong movement, Incinerator just never whiffs
dat first move always ends in my king's muscle armor 🐯
He really disappointed me! Since he started communicating with BAMKO, he has simply become toothless! The only thing is that he doesn’t keep silent about Jin’s players.
Something fun happened while I was playing Reina against Clive. He did a parry, I was already doing my cd1. So, obviously, his parry worked against my 1 (shoryuken). But then I pressed 3. His parry attack went below me, not hitting, and my 3 hit him right on his stupid head 🤣 I didn't expect that, it was cool
For the casual players that makes around 80 %, he is behind a paywall that makes him even more unpredictable. You cannot lab him.
Imagine putting Dragonov as a new character behind a paywall.
Bye bye
Didn't they change that on Clive's release?
@@WilleWalla02you can check replays and take control of your character. But thats implies losing 2 milions times before having enough material to lab all his options. Nice change but not practical, or usefull
true
He's the opposite of dragunov, he's really dangerous if you give him space so always go really close and aggressive against him, also so far from what i saw most players keep using his fake pressure string without realizing its launch punishable
What is his "fake pressure" string? Wanna make sure I'm not using it
@@chillrendbeatsI think he means 1,1 phoenix shift
I hope season 2 bring some serious changes to safe on block heat engagers, it is beyond stupid xD. Clive's Forward, 1+2 ("Prominence") is so broken, i do not understand what the devs think when they release dlc characters so overpowered, i do understand you want people to play the character, but it is a competitive game, soo... Balance, where? xD hahah, gotta say i do love Clive alot, such an amazing move set, just in need of some much needed balancing ^^
d1+2 is not homing, you can step it left
Given that TMM is fully back on Devill Jin propaganda again, let me try to give a different perspective. What devil Jin needs is to finish his move list. Simply put, his damage output, while competitive, is not good enough considering the risk. ( I.e his total dependence on hellsweep, extremely risky defence buttons and weak neutral) That's why he needs to either deal more damage or make his gameplay less risky. While db1+2 mindgame is good, I would rather be in favour giving him heihachi/kuma damage than to make his damage potential reliant on db1+2.
If the balance direction is to make him less riskier, then the good option would be to give him a df2 extension to his current df1 (it can be -6).
That is, a new move with notations df1df2 where df2 will be the same as his current df2. ( Launcher during heat, heat engager otherwise)
This is my rework wishlist for Devil Jin (doesn't have only buffs)
df+1: start-up from 13f to 14f, adv on block from -6 to +1, 2 follow-up guaranteed on normal hit not just on counter.
df+1,2: damage from 11,20 to 11,15.
u+4 (samsara): active from f16 instead of f21, reduced push-back on block (less chance of a trade, more punishable)
b+3: no longer a heat engager
f,n,d,df+1+2: start up from 26f to 21f (becomes of some use especially in heat).
I think those changes don't break the character but make his life less miserable.
@@gionnidigei I wouldnt agree necessarily with your changes but I appreciate the comment. I commented on this video because the history of this streamer's videos suggest anti-DVJ bias which is based on lack of knowledge about the character. I just wanted to explain the current state of Devil Jin. Ultimately it's Namco who decides the balance direction of the character and I kinda like Devil Jin design (while he is different than T7 version, he preserves his mode of offense which is based on waedash). Let's see how it goes but I wanted to play however small a part in countering the misinformation about the character.
@@rochaktimilsina6460 Every player has had his own experience and those suggestions are tailored to mine. But there are much more competent players who can give a more accurate feedback.
As for the DVJ bias, "buff him" is the main current of thought thankfully, TMM has a 30-year Mishima experience and this has a weight in his judgements. Watching him playing DJ, you can feel the gigantic confidence he has and how much it pays off.
If you are like me and have just entered the Tekken world the hardest way possible :D you're gonna think differently.
@@gionnidigei let's see how they change the game. Currently, the big problem with the offence game of Tekken 8 is that it is mostly based on chaining frames. Devil Jin doesn't operate like that ( the only Mishima to not to that btw). His offence is unique,although db1+2 could see some nerf on the first charge. And TMM framing of the character makes him look wildly strong than he actually is. ( He commits the crime of ommision lol) that's why I view his content as propaganda. And my suggestion of the changes to DJ is to make the same thing he already does less risky.
I don't mind Clive being in the game but I absolutely hate all the colours and flashes to where you can't tell what is going on
Too strong imo... can't punish most of his stuff... wtf is the point
What is this list man 🤦🏾♂️
Hey can Lee still pick up from a counter hit D1?
no
You can't side step ,can't parry, you only block and he gets free 50-50s all the time. The only gameplay so far against him is smash with all unfair tools you have and throw every 3 seconds. Boring as shit, pity you can't skip the fight when you see this
He only gets a free 50-50 off b2. Everything else you can just jab through
Green rank opinion
Typical "what is framedata" opinion
@@abra2133 Yeah but dude! I just have to block cause he keeps moving!! Clive is so broken!
@@WilleWalla02 counter argument his mid options are too scary to even try to challenge and his toe kick during the step has a garaunteed WS1-2 on CH, So far the only way I could beat him is let him jizz all over me and have his way with me before he dishes out a punishable move for me to finally play
I had the idea of tekken created the heat system after they created Clive because no other character in the game gets as much as he gets from heat.
Kazyua exists.
I wanna buy this game soon. I see 2 bears and a cat. That's what I'm doing.
Damn...Jin. " If you ever lose with this character, YOU'RE the problem." oof makes me feel better when I beat one now xD
Even beating a horrible jin is an achievement he is just that broken. 10x points if the player is good
@@yannaedc5934 jin is by far the hardest character to pilot. imagine playing poker and your opponent is able to look into your cards the whole session. jin has no fancy moves and his moves are so extremely distinguishable that YOURE the problem when you cant see them from a mile away. without wall piss poor damage too. d2 is reactable and even if it gets nerfed, what does jin then truly have left? why do you want jin, who you all hate sooo much, be by far the weakest character in the game with your nerf wish list? t7 jin was pain to play and now t8 jin is balanced around b tier but keep on being delusional
@@AyCarpThat's massive cap. He's very strong. He needs some moves nerfed
@@AyCarp When they ask you to imagine poker but you never played poker ;(
I like fighting him but I hate customized jins, they always seem to look so basic
@@AyCarpThis is the most Reddit Jin main thing I have ever read
I main jack is he that low 😭😭😭im learning law right now
Can tekken devs change a move on recommendation?
Devil Jin needs a lot of buffs
No
I understand a couple buffs away from menace. But i get hit out of the air 90% of the time. Clive ofc did not help this at all. His
mah prominence
One day I'd like to watch a tier list for beginner-intermediate players, where matchup knowledge is much lower, broken moves count more, most players can't break throws consistently and character difficulty is key.
Character difficulty usually isn't considered because
(1) You can find green ranks doing the most absurd Comboes (but these guys will eventually rank up since they are closer to optimizing the character), or
(2) The character difficulty comes in the game plan(Kazuya, Lee), not the execution.
Also, by definition, tier lists don't count if you aren't the top 0.1% of the population.
DVJ apparently has the highest win-loss ratio of the godfists in Ranked but nobody can make him work in tournaments.
For tiers to apply to you, you have to be facing someone of equal skill level where both players have greatly optimised their character(this will almost always put you at a very high level by default).
Devil Jin would be near the top of that list
King SSS tier if that's the case.
@@SupMaHomies I think he wouldn't be bottom, but not top tier either.
@@SchifferThe2nd super agree.
Why did you complain about Victor and still do, when Clive is million times stronger and cringe than Victor.
Seriously, Victor is way too overhated. I'd rather fight 10 Victors over one Clive.
@@JunKazamaFan you can somewhat predict what victor players are gonna do. Clive has so much more unga bunga
bamco paid him
Yea I tried side stepping that no dice
Massive downplay by MainMan. Charcters with such reach, toolset, moves such as f1+2, best wall travel in the game, best combo damage in the game cannot be anywhere lower that S tier. TMM as always puts he’s favs down the tier list
Nah, you just lack the knowledge to really judge a character without being biased.
@ translation: I will thoughtlessly nod to everything that TMM says cuz of crowd effect and cuz thinking with that own head of mine is too much work
Nah bro, clive is broken, top 5 mainly just because of how dumb he is.
TMM has the habit of downplaying characters he's currently mains. In what kind of world is Kazuya suddenly above Xiaoyu. Lily? Hwoarang? Heihachi?? Heihachi is literally Kazuya... only on steroids@@yagami999913
Don't get me wrong, Kazuya is a VERY strong character. But his piloting and inconsistency puts him down the list alot compared to these other characters. Kazuya requires alot more actual gameplay effort to effectively work compared to the rest of the cast. Due to that fact alone Kazuya can't be put anywhere near close most of these dumb rewarding characters. Especially these waifu characters. Ain't no way
@@Kingpin_TKN Yeah, of course i'm just mindlessly agreeing with TMM. Whatever makes you feel better about your crappy take.
@@yagami999913 well yeah there’s many of you TMM fans with no opinion so yeah keep nodding to everything
He is def op.
The most common opinion on Reddit is that Clive is super low tier and honest and you have to work super hard to win with him.
Redditor opinions matter as much as an Alisa mains opinion.
Are we looking at the same subreddit... Everyone is considering him as the next drag over there.
@@JohnSmith-j7n wym, the 2 main reddits consider him the 2nd coming of Christ 😭
@@whyareyoureadingthislookaw8319I'm an Alisa main but I don't try to downplay her
@@MrSquishy0 I could not care less a half brain dead monkey without limbs thats somehow going through an epileptic seizure could get Fujin with Alisa.
Yeah Clive needs to be more stepable from his moves, he needs nerfs and I love to play him