2:23 Honerable Mention: Dune by Frank Herbert 3:14 The Forever War by John Holdeman 6:21 Old Man's War by John Scalzi 9:56 Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card 13:12 Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein 17:17 Armor by John Steakly
Dude that's so awesome! I just tested doing this earlier today on my last video (about vampire books) since I hadn't added chapters before. It worked, so I'm going to go through our older videos and add them...and then I saw this. Thanks so much!
Really good military science fiction authors: Ian Douglas, John Ringo, Travis S. Taylor, David Weber, Jerry Pournelle, Steve White, Eric Flint, Lois McMaster Bujold, Roland Green, James H. Schmitz, and the ones you cited.
Thanks for the authors! This video is a kind of "fundamentals" for military science fiction, and will be expanding on more works in the future (especially more recent works). So really appreciate the recommendations!
Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan books are marvellous. Won many Hugo Best Novel awards. For anyone interested the books are not about lots of shooting guns at bugs. Instead the series is largely focussed on military politics, culture clashes and adventures between people from planets with very different cultures and military structures. Very much about characters - with one of the main characters of the series being a physically limited, highly intelligent, quick witted young man expected to serve in a militaristic culture that values physical attributes.
@@katv1195 I actually started Shards of Honor, but had to set it aside for a few reasons. I'll be picking it back up here in a couple of weeks. I really liked the world-building, so I'm looking forward to finishing that one. Thanks for the comment!
I like how you mention the service of the authors... Kinda tend to think it integral myself. Not required, Scalzi being the great counter-example, but I feel like it provides a better feel for the experience. Like the salutes you mentioned... There's something similar even in other genres, for that matter, without such obvious tie-ins. Tolkien is the most famous example, but Raymond Chandler is another one that springs to mind. You can tell Phillip Marlowe served, and it echoes throughout. The little details resonate.
I totally agree with you. A lot of veterans use fiction writing as a way of communicating things they don't know how else to express (like Joe Haldeman), and it often adds a grittiness or authenticity that comes out in their stories. You know, I've never read Raymond Chandler, but I've recently been interested in reading The Big Sleep. Thanks for the reminder and thanks so much for the comments!
Crimson Worlds, Blood On The Stars, Sentenced To War, United Federation MC, The Lost Fleet, The Star Carrier and Forgotten Ruin are some of the series that I found to be really entertaining. I have read over 1000 Military Sci Fi books (mainly series) since I retired in 2014.
Whoa! I'm no where near that. I'll have to add some of these to my must read list. Do you have a favorite series you'd recommend? A future video I'd like to do is Top Mil Sci Fi Series, and I think I may poll readers for favorites.
@@D3Reads I'm sorry it took me so long to reply, I've been without power for three days. I wanted to check my spreadsheet where I keep track of all the books I've read and those I'm going to read. Crimson World's I my favorite. I also like Expeditonary Force, The Lost Fleet, Omega Force and too many more to name. Ikeep them all on the spreadsheet.
@@johnlee6727 Woah, 3 days? Sorry you had to go through that, it's a bad time of year to go without power, especially that long. Hope all is well! And thanks for those recommendations!
Haven't watched yet, but the short story (not the novel), "Ender's Game" is hands down the best military science fiction story ever written. Also I'm betting myself that I've read every book you mention at least twice. I'll come back with my list, which is going to be more than five. Edit: OK, I'm back. Dang, I have only read "Old Man's War" once. I quite agree with your list, but would add "Falkenberg's Legion" by Jerry Pournelle, and "Soldier, Ask Not" by Gordon R. Dickson. Well, I'm not sure about that last one. I haven't read it in a long, long time. I loved it when I was younger though. I would also add "Use of Weapons" by Iain M. Banks, though, like Dune, it is much more than just military science fiction. 2nd Edit: and reading the comments I realize that I had forgotten Hammer's Slammers.
Hammer's Slammers keep coming up, so I'm going to tackle as soon as possible. Will also seek out Pournelle and Dickson. Like I mentioned at the beginning of the video, I'm on a military sci fi bender and I'm still craving stories. Thanks for those comments!
@@D3Reads I was actually going through the comments to see if anyone mentioned a book I hadn't read yet. Alas, no luck. Also, If you haven't read John Steakley's "Vampires", it has a similar intensity to "Armor", though it is not military SF.
Nice job, but one thing you forgot to mention about Starship Troopers: it was the first use of military mech suits in sci fi (in 1959!, a generation or two before the technologies that might have made such a thing even possible were conceived of) Imagine a world before mech suits-ST started it all. I read ST when I was 11, the year of the moon landing. Reading about this technology for the first time was mind blowing at the time.
You are so right, and I actually meant to mention that. I think it's amazing that you can read ST today (and Forever War as well) and still be absorbed by the future tech envisioned by these authors. Really amazing, which is why I feel these early books are "must reads" for anyone who loves military sci fi. Thanks so much for the comment!
Some very solid choices on this list, good sir :) I have not read "Armor" but "The Forever War" I read many times in my teens and I seriously think it is why I developed my In-society-but-not-of-society persona :chuckles: For me my favourite military sci-fi has to be the Honor Harrington series; that's my navy bias showing :D
Thank you! I haven't yet read any of the Honor Harrington series, but it popped up as I researched the video, so I have to add it to my must read list. I'm actually headed to a bookstore today (Father's Day gift) and I'll keep my eyes open. Thanks for bringing that up!
Oddly, Armor is the only one of the five I haven't heard of. You do seem to skew slightly towards the infantry view - granted that is what is mostly seen as the core of the military experience. My own recommendation list would include Honor of the Queen (David Weber), Counting the Cost (David Drake), Bolo (Keith Laumer) and With the Lightnings (David Drake). Yes, I list two of David Drake's books - IMHO he may have been the most significant writer in the genre since Robert Heinlein.
I've got Drake on my list for later this summer! And I will add Weber to it as well. But when you get a chance, give Armor a try. It's fantastic! Thanks a lot for the recommendations!
@@D3Reads I know it was re-printed somewhat recently so there may be some copies available - it was drawn by a Belgian artist known as Marvano and colored with very muted, earthy tones- absolutely fantastic and grounded. UPDATE - still available for a great price on Amazon (at least in the US) - so check for it now - can't remember if the reprint was 2 or 3 volumes (the original print from the 80's was 3), but can't confirm as it's boxed up for a move right now :)
That's how I first encountered THE FOREVER WAR--Dark Horse Comics had a magazine called "Cheval Noir" where they published Marvano's adaptation. I didn't like it at first--but after reading the book (thanks to a lovely girl I knew in college who bought me a copy!) I went back and read more of the graphic novel...and I ended up liking it quite a bit.
@@MarcMcKenzie-qb6or That's pretty cool. I see I can get a copy through Amazon for ~$18. But I may make a trip to this nearby bookstore where they sell new and used books and comics and see if I can get lucky. Thanks!
What's with all the annoying clicking? Its distracting as hell. Perplexed as to how Ender's Game became popular. I read the story when it was first published and quite frankly found it a bit trite even boring. I don't understand how it was ever made into a movie. I do agree with the final pick, Armor. It was the best page turner I've read. Its a HUGE book for the genre like 500 plus pages. But rather than sleep I read, and finished it off the same weekend I bought it. The sad thing his only other book Vampiers (that was turned into a John Carpenter movie) was dreck.
That clicking was some kind of anomaly with my Bluetooth mic, as far as I can tell. I apologize for that. I noticed it about halfway through the editing and by then I was committed. I'll definitely look for that beforehand. That's too bad to hear about Vampire$. Jeff (the audiobook side of this channel) has it on his "to listen to" list, and I haven't heard his thoughts on it yet. Really appreciate your comments on these books. I enjoyed them all, even Ender's Game. But although I enjoyed it, I definitely am surprised that it's been so successful. Because though I liked it, I think it doesn't quite match up to, say, Old Man's War and (especially) Armor.
@@Terran.Marine.2 I actually got around to reading the book because I heard that there was going to be a movie version, and I like to experience novels before film adaptations if I can.
@4:50, it's not the collapsar jumps in and of themselves, it's the time spent at fairly high relativistic velocities going to and emerging from the jump.
I put Starshp Troopers, the book (not that abortion of a movie!) as #1. It's also the oldest and Heinlein's design and depiction of powered armor set the mold. All powered armor thereafter, Including Steakley's "Armor" was a well done derivation of Starship Troopers. I thought it was a very good book. I will say that I think you missed the very good social side of Starship Troopers, something the movie missed as well. As explained in his High School, only veterans could hold political office or vote. It arose after a world war and they didn't know exactly why it worked, but it did. The theory presented was that someone who was willing to put their life on the line for their people had a different mindset from those who wouldn't serve. And it is important to note, if you were a blind quadriplegic and wanted to serve, they'd find a job for you and you could get full citizenship. Federal service, not always "military", i.e. infantry, etc. In fact, when Rico enlisted, there wasn't a war. That didn't start until he was in boot camp. Anyway, moving on, Ender's Game was an excellent book as well. The sequels didn't appeal to me as much. "The Last Starfighter" movie had a theme that I thought was similar, i.e. the video game was actually a simulator for the Starfighters and the skills and reflexes honed in the game were what you needed to survive and win in a real Starfighter. Prior to that movie, I'd wondered if video games could hone the reflexes for a real weapon system. And in fact, while it wasn't a success, the M247 Sgt York anti-aircraft "tank" controllers were based off of video game controllers. But I digress. Not on your list, but easily could be is the BOLO tank series by Keith Laumer. Super sized sentient tanks. "Hammer's Slammers" by David Drake are also up there at the top of the list. Both "Bolo" and "Hammer's Slammers" are technology and weapon centric. "Ender's Game" and the "Dorsai" series by Gordon Dickson are more about the mind and the psyche than weapon mechanics. Gordon Dickson is one of my favorites and I highly recommend reading his books.
You make some awesome comments here, and I'm going to mull over a response. Not to argue at all, but you've got me thinking, particularly about Starship Troopers. More to come. Also, thanks for those adds at in the last paragraph!
Thanks for the comment! Something neat about the version of Forever War that I read is that John Scalzi (Old Man's War) wrote the intro to it. That was cool to read.
That's cool, I love it when that kind of thing happens. Like finding lost treasure. I like looking for original or early prints at used book stores. Not looking for anything valuable necessarily, but it's nice to get some original cover art.
I read Armor many years ago, and remember almost nothing from it. Which does not argue for its impact on me. 8-) All of the others are quite good, but of them, I think I would include Ender's Game and Starship Troopers (and maybe Forever War) in a top N list of MilSF. Other stuff that would get consideration: Vatta's War (series), Elizabeth Moon - The series starts in a military academy, transitions to a trade plot, and then shifts back toward military as it progresses. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Heinlein - Revolution (AmRev inspired) in an SF setting Honor Harrington (series), David Weber - Starts with tactical space combat and transitions to grand strategy and politics. Excellent character work. Vorkosigan Saga (series), Lois McMaster Bujold - More adventure than MilSF, but the main protagonists are military and much of the early action is in a military setting. Bujold is perhaps the best writer in F&SF today. March Upcountry (series), Weber and John Ringo - Obviously inspired by Xenophon's Anabasis Janissaries (series), Jerry Pournelle - Modern soldiers thrown into a world with medieval technology Deryni (series), Gordon Dickson - Human evolution seen largely through the lens of a mercenary society. Hammer's Slammers (series), David Drake - Gritty, largely small-unit, mercenary combat with an uncompromising look at the realities Falkenberg's Legion (series), Pournelle - Another mercenary book, set in the collapse of the CoDominium on Earth. Often very dark. Drop Troopers (series), Rick Partlow - Obviously inspired by Starship Troopers The Empire's Corps (series), Christopher Nuttall - A bit oddly plotted at times, but the good books are quite good indeed. Starfire (series), Weber and Steve White - Largely strategy and grand strategy, based on the Starfire boardgame. There are obviously strands of this series in the Honor Harrington series. RCN (series), David Drake - An SF take on the Hornblower and Aubrey/Maturin series. More adventure than MilSF. Star Guard, Andre Norton - Humans have been forced into a subservient role as mercenaries by aliens. This 1955 book is still an excellent read. The General (series), Drake and S.M. Stirling - Post apocalyptic (not on Earth) society, where the protagonist is trying to avert a second apocalypse, clearly based on the Byzantine Empire during the reign of Justinian, with the protagonist in the Belisarius role. I'm sure there are more, but those come immediately to mind.
Thanks so much for this amazing list, and your thoughts on military science fiction. I have to say that I think I'm pretty well read, but you (and a number of others making comments here) have really shined a light on fan-loved books that I'm really excited to experience. Drake is high up on my list to read this summer, but I'm compiling a list of these recommendations that I plan to use as a roadmap for future updates. Thanks again!
I would point out that Heilien credited as his mentor E. E. Smith so perhaps he would be a better choice for the title 'grandfather of military sci-fi'. :)
I've never read EE Smith, I hate to admit. I just did a little digging and I'm stunned I've overlooked his work! Thanks for pointing this out, because we're creating a master TBR list for Mil Sci Fi!
I've read some of Zelazny years ago, thanks for reminding me! But I don't think I've read any of the Amber books, though, so I'll add that to my list (I'm compiling a list from comments and plan on sharing that soon) of must reads, so thank you! I have to admit that I'm not familiar with Gerrold though. It looks like the first in the Chtorr books is out of print but available used. I'll have to add that to my list when I head to the used book store soon. So thank you for that as well!
Thanks for checking this out! I consider myself more of a fantasy type reader as well, but I've been on a sci fi kick for a few months. I've received tons of recommendations on other military science fiction, and so I'll likely be exploring those as well. But I'm planning on shifting gears to fantasy soon (we're going to be looking at Pratchett sometime over the next month, and a "military fantasy" segment sometime after that), so if you've got any favorites please let me know!
The term "mobile" infantry has always come off to me as redundant... and yes, it gets under my skin. If anyone knows if it has a deeper meaning or how/why Heinlein came up with it please let me know. What would be the alternative, static infantry? A.k.a., target practice.
I want to say that the term came into fashion as militaries started incorporating relatively rapid movement capabilities for their infantry. Most troops were foot soldiers who had to march or jump on trains to get to the front, but then some were trained and equipped to move as a cohesive unit to and around the battlefield using trucks and troop carriers and the like. It depended on their TO&E (table of organization and equipment). Infantry of course moves, but I think mobile infantry was expected to move quickly and were more rapidly deployed. But it's been a while since I've looked at that kind of thing, so I may not have that exactly right.
@@D3Reads Thanks. The only thing is that up until Putin invaded Ukraine, WW1 was really the only major war in modern history where infantry was static for any length of time. After watching this video and giving it a little thought I would speculate that Heinlein perhaps was trying to convey what would have been their global military force as distinct from how a national military would be organized in our fragmented world today. A more Machiavellian possibility is that separating the different components of the armed forces by their combat role (infantry, artillery, armor...) makes it less likely for any one branch with multiple capabilities under a single command to pull off a coup. So Mobile Infantry was chosen to make it sound distinct, like Army infantry or Marine infantry. Its been a long time since I've read it, might just have to check it out again. (P.S.: 7 years in the artillery.)
It's a time thing. The Military was finally mechanizing, but that limited strategic mobility--to heavy to fly and took a lot of ships to move them. Airborne had strategic mobility, but moved at 4 mph once on the ground--or less. The US Army and USMC were experimenting, at the time, with helicopters, calling it "Airmobile". Heinlein combined the strategic mobility of airborne troops with the tactical mobility and striking power of mechanized infantry by way of the powered armor.
@@mitchellsmith4690 That makes sense, thanks. Still, regardless of whether it is mechanized, airborne, air assault, mountain... infantry has always been mobile. That's kind of the point. Taking what you said here and combining it with my last reply about Heinlein making the infantry its own branch of the military would tie it together quite well. For full disclosure I was an artillery guy in a standard ground pounding infantry division where mobility was everything.
Did you read any of Goedon Dickinson's Childe Cycle. The Dorsai series is both fun and exciting. The very best military sci-fi by Gordon Dickinson. The Childe cycle ticks all my boxes.
You're going to think I'm a liar, but this 100% true: I just received a copy of Dorsai! today! I ordered it through Thrift Books and plan on releasing a "Military Sci Fi Master TBR" video shortly and I'm including Dickinson's work based on viewer recommendations. So I'm stoked to read it!
Thanks for the recommendations! I just looked up both of these and they sound really good. So that'll go on the Must Read List, which is getting really long now. Which series do you think would be best to start first?
Freedom Fire is much more gritty but the Story over 6 short books is pretty unique. Columbus day is an ABSOLUTE Cult Classic, About 19 books in all, its Hilarious and Awesome, I dare you to put it down. From Chapter 10 onward it is simply the BEST thing out there. And I recommend the audio book, Serious RC bray is Amazing
Craig dilouie is a Canadian author who didnt serve in the military. & people & fellow soldiers say they thought he did cause when he does books with soldiers as main characters they say its realistic
Thanks for that! I've been looking over his books on Amazon and he's got a lot of interesting stuff out there, from zombies to historic fiction. Do you have a recommendation on a good place to start? A favorite or must read of his work?
The infection book 1 & book 2 are my favorite because its 28 days later meets the mist. And horror scifi is my jam. Tooth & nail is a good one shot novel with all the main characters are the army but its not scifi. The aviator is 2 novellas about a navy fighter pilot vs north korea(not scifi). I still plan on reading more of his work
Armor is probably my favorite military sci fi book. I started On Basilisk Station last month but had to stop to read some spooky books for Oct, but I'm switching back to it here shortly. I like how Weber starts with the political machinations that appear to kick off the plot, so I'm looking forward to finishing it. Thanks for the Blish recommendation! I need to see if I can find a copy, as it looks like that book may be out of print.
I read _Armor_ twice; haven't since, because it is seriously depressing...but it is an excellent book. My own favorite is _The Prince,_ by Jerry Pournelle. It is a reorganized compilation of most of his _Future History_ series, focusing on the characters of John Christian Falkenberg and Prince Lysander of Sparta, who are trying to stave off the collapse of civilization, as Earth is about to be plunged into a nuclear war, as the Fleet and its allies are desperately trying to shove as many people off of Earth as they can, like pasta against the wall, hoping that enough warm bodies will mitigate the coming collapse....Some of the very best military science fiction ever written. My "runner's up" are both by the late David Drake: _Hammer's Slammers_ (which shouldn't really need an introduction), and _The General_ series, with S.M. Stirling. _The General (aka, The Raj Whitehall Series)_ is about a sentient battle computer guiding a military officer in reuniting his world -- that has been literally blown back to a barely-Victorian level of technology. The original five-book series is based on the life of the Byzantine general Belisarius, and is vivid in its depiction of breech-loading cavalry warfare (riding genetically enlarge riding dogs...don't worry, it's legit).....Stick to the first five books though; Stirling took a little too much control over the last few books, and they are essentially rewrites of his _Draka_ series, which is not a compliment. I will say, however, that I have not read the other books in the series that Drake did with other authors.
You're not kidding about Armor being depressing. That was a ride, action and emotion wise. I didn't have The Prince on my radar at all, and now I've added it to my must read list. Same with Hammer's Slammers, which although I know about I have never actually read. That's a huge miss on my part. Thanks for recommending these!
@@D3Reads It's "military sci-fi", technically, but Pournelle has another series called _Janissaries,_ about a team of 1970's mercenaries plucked off an African hilltop by a flying saucer, and are taken to a Dark Ages-level planet, so that they can basically take over a chunk of the planet and grow "space cocaine" for the aliens -- and no, it's not a comedy, like DeCamp's _Planet Krishna_ series......It's a good series, IMO, but not really his best.
@@D3Reads Also, Pournelle is the other half of the team that wrote _Lucifer's Hammer,_ and _Footfall,_ with Larry Niven. Their first collab, _The Mote In God's Eye,_ is one of the first realistic "first contact" novels, and is notable for three things: Heinlein gushing praise of it; them deleting nearly 100 pages of a space battle to get the real plot moving; and changing the orbit of a planet in order to make one killer line make sense. I cannot recommend this book highly enough. Pournelle's _The Prince_ is the backstory - 1,000 years removed - to this book.
I used to own a copy of A Mote in God's Eye (rather I think my dad did back in the late 1970s), and I always meant to read it. Thanks for that recommendation as well!
Wow I have to admit that I didn't have this one on my radar. It sounds really interesting! I'm putting it on my TBR and will try to read it before the next iteration of this video. Thank you very much!
Yeah - the clicking is real bad. A good reason to redo. Was my introduction to your channel, and i stopped the playback after not being able to focus on your actual words
At first I had no idea, and thought it was my mic rubbing against the hoodie zipper. But as I prepared my next video I realized that the mics I wear (which are decent but not the most expensive out there) have a cheap flaw: the power buttons are sort of loose, and rattle when I move. Isn't that stupid? So I implemented a high-tech fix: I put scotch tape on the power button to fix it in place when I record, and it worked!
The video was definitely skewed toward older works (1980s and earlier), those that inspired more recent novels. John Ringo has been brought up at least once from another comment, so I've got him on my TBR list, though I didn't have Alanson on my radar. I appreciate the suggestions! Do you have a favorite you'd recommend to start either author. Looks like Columbus Day makes sense for Alanson.
I can't say that I am very familiar with this series at all, but from what I see I don't know how I missed it. It sounds intriguing, so thanks for the recommendation!
I really liked Forever War as sci fi, but I disagree with you there. It covers a number of the classic mil sci fi tropes (arguably helped establish them): high-tech battle suits used to engage enemies and space combat in a war. But even more, one the things Forever War does better than most other mil sci fi is its portrayal of the psychological displacement felt by military members who return to "normal life." So I agree the science fiction was great (the collapsars were pretty cool and made my head hurt). But it's a solid read regardless! Thanks for commenting!
You're right in that the video your commenting on, as well as the other of this channel's initial videos, are all focused on the classics. in those videos, we try to answer "What are the best, foundational novels and authors" of a particular genre. But we also wanted to start a conversation, asking viewers what they would add to "best of" lists. Our subsequent videos look to expand on those, and you may find things that are new that you may enjoy! One of the things we're doing is making what we call "Ultimate TBR lists" for each genre, and we just released one for Military Sci Fi. So if you have a few minutes, give that a look! And thanks for commenting!
Yeah, I noticed that when I was editing. That was annoying and I'm not sure what that came from, but I'll be on the lookout in future videos to make sure it doesn't happen again. Sorry about that!
I think I get why you'd say that about Scott Card, but I enjoyed Ender's Game quite a bit. I thought it led to a pretty intense ending. But I never made my way to the sequels.
@@Terran.Marine.2 That the impression I got when I looked at the book summaries. They seemed quite different in flavor, and may be why I didn't rush to read them. I still plan on getting there eventually, though.
4 месяца назад
@@D3Reads no way brah. Ender was a stupid character that never did anything intelligent but the author keeps telling us ender is smart.
What an eloquent and well-reasoned critique. I'll just say that opinions vary, because it's apparent that there is little common ground for conversation.
2:23 Honerable Mention: Dune by Frank Herbert
3:14 The Forever War by John Holdeman
6:21 Old Man's War by John Scalzi
9:56 Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card
13:12 Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein
17:17 Armor by John Steakly
Dude that's so awesome! I just tested doing this earlier today on my last video (about vampire books) since I hadn't added chapters before. It worked, so I'm going to go through our older videos and add them...and then I saw this. Thanks so much!
Really good military science fiction authors: Ian Douglas, John Ringo, Travis S. Taylor, David Weber, Jerry Pournelle, Steve White, Eric Flint, Lois McMaster Bujold, Roland Green, James H. Schmitz, and the ones you cited.
Thanks for the authors! This video is a kind of "fundamentals" for military science fiction, and will be expanding on more works in the future (especially more recent works). So really appreciate the recommendations!
you only left out michael z. williamson from my reading list.
@@JouniKuusela Cool! And I just added Williamson to our TBR, so thank you!
Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan books are marvellous. Won many Hugo Best Novel awards.
For anyone interested the books are not about lots of shooting guns at bugs. Instead the series is largely focussed on military politics, culture clashes and adventures between people from planets with very different cultures and military structures.
Very much about characters - with one of the main characters of the series being a physically limited, highly intelligent, quick witted young man expected to serve in a militaristic culture that values physical attributes.
@@katv1195 I actually started Shards of Honor, but had to set it aside for a few reasons. I'll be picking it back up here in a couple of weeks. I really liked the world-building, so I'm looking forward to finishing that one. Thanks for the comment!
I like how you mention the service of the authors... Kinda tend to think it integral myself. Not required, Scalzi being the great counter-example, but I feel like it provides a better feel for the experience. Like the salutes you mentioned...
There's something similar even in other genres, for that matter, without such obvious tie-ins. Tolkien is the most famous example, but Raymond Chandler is another one that springs to mind. You can tell Phillip Marlowe served, and it echoes throughout. The little details resonate.
I totally agree with you. A lot of veterans use fiction writing as a way of communicating things they don't know how else to express (like Joe Haldeman), and it often adds a grittiness or authenticity that comes out in their stories.
You know, I've never read Raymond Chandler, but I've recently been interested in reading The Big Sleep. Thanks for the reminder and thanks so much for the comments!
Crimson Worlds, Blood On The Stars, Sentenced To War, United Federation MC, The Lost Fleet, The Star Carrier and Forgotten Ruin are some of the series that I found to be really entertaining. I have read over 1000 Military Sci Fi books (mainly series) since I retired in 2014.
Whoa! I'm no where near that. I'll have to add some of these to my must read list. Do you have a favorite series you'd recommend? A future video I'd like to do is Top Mil Sci Fi Series, and I think I may poll readers for favorites.
@@D3Reads I'm sorry it took me so long to reply, I've been without power for three days. I wanted to check my spreadsheet where I keep track of all the books I've read and those I'm going to read. Crimson World's I my favorite. I also like Expeditonary Force, The Lost Fleet, Omega Force and too many more to name. Ikeep them all on the spreadsheet.
@@johnlee6727 Woah, 3 days? Sorry you had to go through that, it's a bad time of year to go without power, especially that long. Hope all is well! And thanks for those recommendations!
@@D3Reads I think 90+% of the books I have read are by x military. I was in the army from 69 -72. Before there was a lottery.
Haven't watched yet, but the short story (not the novel), "Ender's Game" is hands down the best military science fiction story ever written. Also I'm betting myself that I've read every book you mention at least twice. I'll come back with my list, which is going to be more than five.
Edit: OK, I'm back. Dang, I have only read "Old Man's War" once. I quite agree with your list, but would add "Falkenberg's Legion" by Jerry Pournelle, and "Soldier, Ask Not" by Gordon R. Dickson. Well, I'm not sure about that last one. I haven't read it in a long, long time. I loved it when I was younger though. I would also add "Use of Weapons" by Iain M. Banks, though, like Dune, it is much more than just military science fiction.
2nd Edit: and reading the comments I realize that I had forgotten Hammer's Slammers.
Hammer's Slammers keep coming up, so I'm going to tackle as soon as possible. Will also seek out Pournelle and Dickson. Like I mentioned at the beginning of the video, I'm on a military sci fi bender and I'm still craving stories. Thanks for those comments!
@@D3Reads I was actually going through the comments to see if anyone mentioned a book I hadn't read yet. Alas, no luck. Also, If you haven't read John Steakley's "Vampires", it has a similar intensity to "Armor", though it is not military SF.
That's on the list! Jeff (who does our audiobook reviews) I think is listening to the audiobook version, now or sometime soon. Thanks!
Nice job, but one thing you forgot to mention about Starship Troopers: it was the first use of military mech suits in sci fi (in 1959!, a generation or two before the technologies that might have made such a thing even possible were conceived of) Imagine a world before mech suits-ST started it all.
I read ST when I was 11, the year of the moon landing. Reading about this technology for the first time was mind blowing at the time.
You are so right, and I actually meant to mention that. I think it's amazing that you can read ST today (and Forever War as well) and still be absorbed by the future tech envisioned by these authors. Really amazing, which is why I feel these early books are "must reads" for anyone who loves military sci fi. Thanks so much for the comment!
Some very solid choices on this list, good sir :) I have not read "Armor" but "The Forever War" I read many times in my teens and I seriously think it is why I developed my In-society-but-not-of-society persona :chuckles: For me my favourite military sci-fi has to be the Honor Harrington series; that's my navy bias showing :D
Thank you! I haven't yet read any of the Honor Harrington series, but it popped up as I researched the video, so I have to add it to my must read list. I'm actually headed to a bookstore today (Father's Day gift) and I'll keep my eyes open. Thanks for bringing that up!
Dorsai series by Gordon Dickson.
Just checked it out and it sounds really interesting. Adding to the Must Read List, thanks!
Oddly, Armor is the only one of the five I haven't heard of. You do seem to skew slightly towards the infantry view - granted that is what is mostly seen as the core of the military experience.
My own recommendation list would include Honor of the Queen (David Weber), Counting the Cost (David Drake), Bolo (Keith Laumer) and With the Lightnings (David Drake). Yes, I list two of David Drake's books - IMHO he may have been the most significant writer in the genre since Robert Heinlein.
I've got Drake on my list for later this summer! And I will add Weber to it as well. But when you get a chance, give Armor a try. It's fantastic! Thanks a lot for the recommendations!
Tactics of Mistake, On Basilisk Station etc,
Dickson and Weber have both cropped up a few times here, and so I plan on exploring them both. I appreciate the suggestions!
The Forever War is really amazing - I was introduced to it as the amazing graphic novel when I was a teenager.
I'd love to see a graphic novel version of the Forever War, that sounds really cool.
@@D3Reads I know it was re-printed somewhat recently so there may be some copies available - it was drawn by a Belgian artist known as Marvano and colored with very muted, earthy tones- absolutely fantastic and grounded.
UPDATE - still available for a great price on Amazon (at least in the US) - so check for it now - can't remember if the reprint was 2 or 3 volumes (the original print from the 80's was 3), but can't confirm as it's boxed up for a move right now :)
That's how I first encountered THE FOREVER WAR--Dark Horse Comics had a magazine called "Cheval Noir" where they published Marvano's adaptation. I didn't like it at first--but after reading the book (thanks to a lovely girl I knew in college who bought me a copy!) I went back and read more of the graphic novel...and I ended up liking it quite a bit.
@@MarcMcKenzie-qb6or That's pretty cool. I see I can get a copy through Amazon for ~$18. But I may make a trip to this nearby bookstore where they sell new and used books and comics and see if I can get lucky. Thanks!
Thank you for that, I will check it out!
What's with all the annoying clicking? Its distracting as hell. Perplexed as to how Ender's Game became popular. I read the story when it was first published and quite frankly found it a bit trite even boring. I don't understand how it was ever made into a movie. I do agree with the final pick, Armor. It was the best page turner I've read. Its a HUGE book for the genre like 500 plus pages. But rather than sleep I read, and finished it off the same weekend I bought it. The sad thing his only other book Vampiers (that was turned into a John Carpenter movie) was dreck.
That clicking was some kind of anomaly with my Bluetooth mic, as far as I can tell. I apologize for that. I noticed it about halfway through the editing and by then I was committed. I'll definitely look for that beforehand.
That's too bad to hear about Vampire$. Jeff (the audiobook side of this channel) has it on his "to listen to" list, and I haven't heard his thoughts on it yet.
Really appreciate your comments on these books. I enjoyed them all, even Ender's Game. But although I enjoyed it, I definitely am surprised that it's been so successful. Because though I liked it, I think it doesn't quite match up to, say, Old Man's War and (especially) Armor.
I was seriously disappointed with the adaptation of enders game. So many changes that, IMAO, it was not the same story.
@@Terran.Marine.2 I actually got around to reading the book because I heard that there was going to be a movie version, and I like to experience novels before film adaptations if I can.
"Vampire$" btw have you read War against the Chtorr series?
@4:50, it's not the collapsar jumps in and of themselves, it's the time spent at fairly high relativistic velocities going to and emerging from the jump.
I knew I was mangling the explanation as I said it, and during the video edit I wondered if anyone was going to help me out. Thanks for the assist!
I put Starshp Troopers, the book (not that abortion of a movie!) as #1. It's also the oldest and Heinlein's design and depiction of powered armor set the mold. All powered armor thereafter, Including Steakley's "Armor" was a well done derivation of Starship Troopers. I thought it was a very good book. I will say that I think you missed the very good social side of Starship Troopers, something the movie missed as well. As explained in his High School, only veterans could hold political office or vote. It arose after a world war and they didn't know exactly why it worked, but it did. The theory presented was that someone who was willing to put their life on the line for their people had a different mindset from those who wouldn't serve. And it is important to note, if you were a blind quadriplegic and wanted to serve, they'd find a job for you and you could get full citizenship. Federal service, not always "military", i.e. infantry, etc. In fact, when Rico enlisted, there wasn't a war. That didn't start until he was in boot camp.
Anyway, moving on, Ender's Game was an excellent book as well. The sequels didn't appeal to me as much. "The Last Starfighter" movie had a theme that I thought was similar, i.e. the video game was actually a simulator for the Starfighters and the skills and reflexes honed in the game were what you needed to survive and win in a real Starfighter. Prior to that movie, I'd wondered if video games could hone the reflexes for a real weapon system. And in fact, while it wasn't a success, the M247 Sgt York anti-aircraft "tank" controllers were based off of video game controllers. But I digress.
Not on your list, but easily could be is the BOLO tank series by Keith Laumer. Super sized sentient tanks. "Hammer's Slammers" by David Drake are also up there at the top of the list. Both "Bolo" and "Hammer's Slammers" are technology and weapon centric. "Ender's Game" and the "Dorsai" series by Gordon Dickson are more about the mind and the psyche than weapon mechanics. Gordon Dickson is one of my favorites and I highly recommend reading his books.
You make some awesome comments here, and I'm going to mull over a response. Not to argue at all, but you've got me thinking, particularly about Starship Troopers. More to come. Also, thanks for those adds at in the last paragraph!
Wasn't there a war going on with a humanoid race called the "skinnies"? "I am a ten second bomb" or no?
Yeah, Earth fought them but the skinnies switched sides at some point and was in something of an uneasy alliance against the bugs.
Have you read the War against the Chtorr series?
That's a great list. I read 4 out of 5, only missing "Forever War". "Armor" is probably my favorite too, one of the few books I read twice.
Forever war is a good read. It's almost like three different eras all in one book.
Thanks for the comment! Something neat about the version of Forever War that I read is that John Scalzi (Old Man's War) wrote the intro to it. That was cool to read.
Forever War is one of the only books I've ever read twice. I found my copy in a recycling dumpster when I was a kid.
That's cool, I love it when that kind of thing happens. Like finding lost treasure. I like looking for original or early prints at used book stores. Not looking for anything valuable necessarily, but it's nice to get some original cover art.
I read Armor many years ago, and remember almost nothing from it. Which does not argue for its impact on me. 8-)
All of the others are quite good, but of them, I think I would include Ender's Game and Starship Troopers (and maybe Forever War) in a top N list of MilSF.
Other stuff that would get consideration:
Vatta's War (series), Elizabeth Moon - The series starts in a military academy, transitions to a trade plot, and then shifts back toward military as it progresses.
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Heinlein - Revolution (AmRev inspired) in an SF setting
Honor Harrington (series), David Weber - Starts with tactical space combat and transitions to grand strategy and politics. Excellent character work.
Vorkosigan Saga (series), Lois McMaster Bujold - More adventure than MilSF, but the main protagonists are military and much of the early action is in a military setting. Bujold is perhaps the best writer in F&SF today.
March Upcountry (series), Weber and John Ringo - Obviously inspired by Xenophon's Anabasis
Janissaries (series), Jerry Pournelle - Modern soldiers thrown into a world with medieval technology
Deryni (series), Gordon Dickson - Human evolution seen largely through the lens of a mercenary society.
Hammer's Slammers (series), David Drake - Gritty, largely small-unit, mercenary combat with an uncompromising look at the realities
Falkenberg's Legion (series), Pournelle - Another mercenary book, set in the collapse of the CoDominium on Earth. Often very dark.
Drop Troopers (series), Rick Partlow - Obviously inspired by Starship Troopers
The Empire's Corps (series), Christopher Nuttall - A bit oddly plotted at times, but the good books are quite good indeed.
Starfire (series), Weber and Steve White - Largely strategy and grand strategy, based on the Starfire boardgame. There are obviously strands of this series in the Honor Harrington series.
RCN (series), David Drake - An SF take on the Hornblower and Aubrey/Maturin series. More adventure than MilSF.
Star Guard, Andre Norton - Humans have been forced into a subservient role as mercenaries by aliens. This 1955 book is still an excellent read.
The General (series), Drake and S.M. Stirling - Post apocalyptic (not on Earth) society, where the protagonist is trying to avert a second apocalypse, clearly based on the Byzantine Empire during the reign of Justinian, with the protagonist in the Belisarius role.
I'm sure there are more, but those come immediately to mind.
Thanks so much for this amazing list, and your thoughts on military science fiction. I have to say that I think I'm pretty well read, but you (and a number of others making comments here) have really shined a light on fan-loved books that I'm really excited to experience. Drake is high up on my list to read this summer, but I'm compiling a list of these recommendations that I plan to use as a roadmap for future updates. Thanks again!
"Old Man's War" is one I havent read yet.
Well worth the read!
I dunno what else is on your list, but Old Man's War best almost anything that might be on a list of unread books i might have. It's fantastic.
I would point out that Heilien credited as his mentor E. E. Smith so perhaps he would be a better choice for the title 'grandfather of military sci-fi'. :)
I've never read EE Smith, I hate to admit. I just did a little digging and I'm stunned I've overlooked his work! Thanks for pointing this out, because we're creating a master TBR list for Mil Sci Fi!
armor by john steakley is also one my favorites, if not my favorite.
he also wrote vampire$.
I've got vampire$ in my list!
Yes Armor but if you liked that check out Redliners by David Drake, Might make you rethink the others :)
David Drake has come up a couple of times now, and so will definitely be checking out his work. Thanks for that reinforcement!
Nice list, I'd add David Gerrold's War against the Chtorr series and Roger Zelazny's Amber series..
I've read some of Zelazny years ago, thanks for reminding me! But I don't think I've read any of the Amber books, though, so I'll add that to my list (I'm compiling a list from comments and plan on sharing that soon) of must reads, so thank you! I have to admit that I'm not familiar with Gerrold though. It looks like the first in the Chtorr books is out of print but available used. I'll have to add that to my list when I head to the used book store soon. So thank you for that as well!
I'm mainly a fantasy guy. But after stumbling on your video, I want to give military sci fi a try, thanks 😊
Thanks for checking this out! I consider myself more of a fantasy type reader as well, but I've been on a sci fi kick for a few months. I've received tons of recommendations on other military science fiction, and so I'll likely be exploring those as well. But I'm planning on shifting gears to fantasy soon (we're going to be looking at Pratchett sometime over the next month, and a "military fantasy" segment sometime after that), so if you've got any favorites please let me know!
The term "mobile" infantry has always come off to me as redundant... and yes, it gets under my skin. If anyone knows if it has a deeper meaning or how/why Heinlein came up with it please let me know. What would be the alternative, static infantry? A.k.a., target practice.
I want to say that the term came into fashion as militaries started incorporating relatively rapid movement capabilities for their infantry. Most troops were foot soldiers who had to march or jump on trains to get to the front, but then some were trained and equipped to move as a cohesive unit to and around the battlefield using trucks and troop carriers and the like. It depended on their TO&E (table of organization and equipment). Infantry of course moves, but I think mobile infantry was expected to move quickly and were more rapidly deployed. But it's been a while since I've looked at that kind of thing, so I may not have that exactly right.
@@D3Reads Thanks. The only thing is that up until Putin invaded Ukraine, WW1 was really the only major war in modern history where infantry was static for any length of time. After watching this video and giving it a little thought I would speculate that Heinlein perhaps was trying to convey what would have been their global military force as distinct from how a national military would be organized in our fragmented world today.
A more Machiavellian possibility is that separating the different components of the armed forces by their combat role (infantry, artillery, armor...) makes it less likely for any one branch with multiple capabilities under a single command to pull off a coup. So Mobile Infantry was chosen to make it sound distinct, like Army infantry or Marine infantry. Its been a long time since I've read it, might just have to check it out again.
(P.S.: 7 years in the artillery.)
It's a time thing. The Military was finally mechanizing, but that limited strategic mobility--to heavy to fly and took a lot of ships to move them. Airborne had strategic mobility, but moved at 4 mph once on the ground--or less. The US Army and USMC were experimenting, at the time, with helicopters, calling it "Airmobile". Heinlein combined the strategic mobility of airborne troops with the tactical mobility and striking power of mechanized infantry by way of the powered armor.
@@mitchellsmith4690 That makes sense, thanks. Still, regardless of whether it is mechanized, airborne, air assault, mountain... infantry has always been mobile. That's kind of the point. Taking what you said here and combining it with my last reply about Heinlein making the infantry its own branch of the military would tie it together quite well. For full disclosure I was an artillery guy in a standard ground pounding infantry division where mobility was everything.
@@deepashtray5605 I was a FISTer in the 82d, then 2 ACR, then the 82d...in terms of tactical mobility, dismounts have very little, and that slow!
Did you read any of Goedon Dickinson's Childe Cycle. The Dorsai series is both fun and exciting.
The very best military sci-fi by Gordon Dickinson. The Childe cycle ticks all my boxes.
You're going to think I'm a liar, but this 100% true: I just received a copy of Dorsai! today! I ordered it through Thrift Books and plan on releasing a "Military Sci Fi Master TBR" video shortly and I'm including Dickinson's work based on viewer recommendations. So I'm stoked to read it!
@@D3Reads I believe you! Hope you enjoy it as much as i have over the years.
I would like to recommend Freedom's Fire - Bobby Addair, and Columbus Day - Craig Alanson
Thanks for the recommendations! I just looked up both of these and they sound really good. So that'll go on the Must Read List, which is getting really long now. Which series do you think would be best to start first?
Freedom Fire is much more gritty but the Story over 6 short books is pretty unique. Columbus day is an ABSOLUTE Cult Classic, About 19 books in all, its Hilarious and Awesome, I dare you to put it down. From Chapter 10 onward it is simply the BEST thing out there. And I recommend the audio book, Serious RC bray is Amazing
Craig dilouie is a Canadian author who didnt serve in the military. & people & fellow soldiers say they thought he did cause when he does books with soldiers as main characters they say its realistic
Thanks for that! I've been looking over his books on Amazon and he's got a lot of interesting stuff out there, from zombies to historic fiction. Do you have a recommendation on a good place to start? A favorite or must read of his work?
The infection book 1 & book 2 are my favorite because its 28 days later meets the mist. And horror scifi is my jam.
Tooth & nail is a good one shot novel with all the main characters are the army but its not scifi.
The aviator is 2 novellas about a navy fighter pilot vs north korea(not scifi).
I still plan on reading more of his work
Armor.......On Basilisk Station....The seedling planets (james blish)
Armor is probably my favorite military sci fi book. I started On Basilisk Station last month but had to stop to read some spooky books for Oct, but I'm switching back to it here shortly. I like how Weber starts with the political machinations that appear to kick off the plot, so I'm looking forward to finishing it. Thanks for the Blish recommendation! I need to see if I can find a copy, as it looks like that book may be out of print.
I read _Armor_ twice; haven't since, because it is seriously depressing...but it is an excellent book.
My own favorite is _The Prince,_ by Jerry Pournelle. It is a reorganized compilation of most of his _Future History_ series, focusing on the characters of John Christian Falkenberg and Prince Lysander of Sparta, who are trying to stave off the collapse of civilization, as Earth is about to be plunged into a nuclear war, as the Fleet and its allies are desperately trying to shove as many people off of Earth as they can, like pasta against the wall, hoping that enough warm bodies will mitigate the coming collapse....Some of the very best military science fiction ever written.
My "runner's up" are both by the late David Drake: _Hammer's Slammers_ (which shouldn't really need an introduction), and _The General_ series, with S.M. Stirling. _The General (aka, The Raj Whitehall Series)_ is about a sentient battle computer guiding a military officer in reuniting his world -- that has been literally blown back to a barely-Victorian level of technology. The original five-book series is based on the life of the Byzantine general Belisarius, and is vivid in its depiction of breech-loading cavalry warfare (riding genetically enlarge riding dogs...don't worry, it's legit).....Stick to the first five books though; Stirling took a little too much control over the last few books, and they are essentially rewrites of his _Draka_ series, which is not a compliment. I will say, however, that I have not read the other books in the series that Drake did with other authors.
You're not kidding about Armor being depressing. That was a ride, action and emotion wise.
I didn't have The Prince on my radar at all, and now I've added it to my must read list. Same with Hammer's Slammers, which although I know about I have never actually read. That's a huge miss on my part. Thanks for recommending these!
@@D3Reads It's "military sci-fi", technically, but Pournelle has another series called _Janissaries,_ about a team of 1970's mercenaries plucked off an African hilltop by a flying saucer, and are taken to a Dark Ages-level planet, so that they can basically take over a chunk of the planet and grow "space cocaine" for the aliens -- and no, it's not a comedy, like DeCamp's _Planet Krishna_ series......It's a good series, IMO, but not really his best.
@@D3Reads Also, Pournelle is the other half of the team that wrote _Lucifer's Hammer,_ and _Footfall,_ with Larry Niven. Their first collab, _The Mote In God's Eye,_ is one of the first realistic "first contact" novels, and is notable for three things: Heinlein gushing praise of it; them deleting nearly 100 pages of a space battle to get the real plot moving; and changing the orbit of a planet in order to make one killer line make sense.
I cannot recommend this book highly enough.
Pournelle's _The Prince_ is the backstory - 1,000 years removed - to this book.
I used to own a copy of A Mote in God's Eye (rather I think my dad did back in the late 1970s), and I always meant to read it. Thanks for that recommendation as well!
Does the Red Rising books count? I think they do. The list is solid, but Red Rising should be added imo.
Wow I have to admit that I didn't have this one on my radar. It sounds really interesting! I'm putting it on my TBR and will try to read it before the next iteration of this video. Thank you very much!
Yeah - the clicking is real bad. A good reason to redo. Was my introduction to your channel, and i stopped the playback after not being able to focus on your actual words
Definitely a lesson learned for me. I appreciate the honest feedback on the video!
@@D3Reads PLEASE... Remake? I want to hear you!
Agreed that the clicking is too distracting. What is that??
At first I had no idea, and thought it was my mic rubbing against the hoodie zipper. But as I prepared my next video I realized that the mics I wear (which are decent but not the most expensive out there) have a cheap flaw: the power buttons are sort of loose, and rattle when I move. Isn't that stupid? So I implemented a high-tech fix: I put scotch tape on the power button to fix it in place when I record, and it worked!
Whilst I like your top 5.......I can't believe John Ringo or Craig Alanson didn't make your list.
The video was definitely skewed toward older works (1980s and earlier), those that inspired more recent novels. John Ringo has been brought up at least once from another comment, so I've got him on my TBR list, though I didn't have Alanson on my radar. I appreciate the suggestions! Do you have a favorite you'd recommend to start either author. Looks like Columbus Day makes sense for Alanson.
Read Alexis Gilliland Science Fiction Books 'Pirates of the Rosinante' excellence reading and totally feasible!!
I'll give them a look and add them to the channel list! Thank you!
Area 51 series by Robert Doherty.
I can't say that I am very familiar with this series at all, but from what I see I don't know how I missed it. It sounds intriguing, so thanks for the recommendation!
Hello, hope you don't mind, I used this video in my latest video. Thanks!
That's awesome! Thanks for letting us know, we'll make sure to check it out.
Forever war.....great SF book...but no military book at all.....
I really liked Forever War as sci fi, but I disagree with you there. It covers a number of the classic mil sci fi tropes (arguably helped establish them): high-tech battle suits used to engage enemies and space combat in a war. But even more, one the things Forever War does better than most other mil sci fi is its portrayal of the psychological displacement felt by military members who return to "normal life." So I agree the science fiction was great (the collapsars were pretty cool and made my head hurt). But it's a solid read regardless! Thanks for commenting!
There are so many good Military Sci-Fi books and series. You choose the most basic and predictable list possible.
Expand your reading list.
Appreciate the thought, thanks.
U only tell us more of the same......the genre as we knew it is dead.....
You're right in that the video your commenting on, as well as the other of this channel's initial videos, are all focused on the classics. in those videos, we try to answer "What are the best, foundational novels and authors" of a particular genre. But we also wanted to start a conversation, asking viewers what they would add to "best of" lists. Our subsequent videos look to expand on those, and you may find things that are new that you may enjoy! One of the things we're doing is making what we call "Ultimate TBR lists" for each genre, and we just released one for Military Sci Fi. So if you have a few minutes, give that a look! And thanks for commenting!
Fix your audio dude. That clicking was so distracting I couldn't watch the video.
Yeah, I noticed that when I was editing. That was annoying and I'm not sure what that came from, but I'll be on the lookout in future videos to make sure it doesn't happen again. Sorry about that!
Ditto
I didn't hear anything
It's the bugs.
Ender's game is garbage, and Scott card is a hack.
I think I get why you'd say that about Scott Card, but I enjoyed Ender's Game quite a bit. I thought it led to a pretty intense ending. But I never made my way to the sequels.
In my opinion, the sequels are ok, but I'm not certain that they belong in the same storyline.
@@Terran.Marine.2 That the impression I got when I looked at the book summaries. They seemed quite different in flavor, and may be why I didn't rush to read them. I still plan on getting there eventually, though.
@@D3Reads no way brah. Ender was a stupid character that never did anything intelligent but the author keeps telling us ender is smart.
What an eloquent and well-reasoned critique.
I'll just say that opinions vary, because it's apparent that there is little common ground for conversation.