It’s me who sent you this question.. 😊.. Looks like my name was auto corrected to “Thank”.. Anyways, thanks a lot for your answer, sir!! 😊 Actually I added a REL subwoofer to my system and yes, it made a huge improvement to the sound. My Focals only go as low as 50Hz and not only the subwoofer extended the low end, it appears like the highs and minds are more prominent now. Thanks again for your wisdom and we all learn from you a lot. Planning to visit PS Audio again next year!
Good choices you've made with REL sub and Focal speakers. But don't forget there is still way more work to do in order to CORRECTLY integrate that sub into your 2 channels. Crossover frequency, sub alignment, sub positioning in the room are just a few things you need to take care of in order to obtain the most out of your system. :)
@@sickjohnson I use a Polk Audio Subwoofer for home theater. I have two separate systems for Two Channel and home theater. But I'm pretty sure REL will do just fine for movies as well.
@@radzillov I totally agree. I bought this sub 3 weeks back but still fine tuning to get the best results from the integration. It will take a few more weeks before I get the best results.
It does kind of feel like there was a missed opportunity here to talk more about ported vs sealed and the differences in performance, speed, definition, etc.
@Fat Rat there is better subwoofers out there, subjectivity is a cop out. some people don't hear any difference or have a low budget, if you dont have heard any better than the one you got is the best kind of attitude. the basics for a good subwoofer is: a quick, lightweight woofer in a sealed or open baffle design, then features like servo or some kind of dsp to tune the output for hearing, room and roloff. preferably with minimum of processing delay. everyone like the same thing, fullrange output of a system and tight bass with definition that blends with main speakers. and lots of tactile bass. if anyone says anything different then its based on limitation not subjectivity.
If you want a subwoofer for mostly music then I would stick with an 8- or 10-inch sub. Larger subs, like 12- or 15-inch, tend to be not as fast. Also sealed subs tends to be more musical but I have found some good ported subs for music as well. I have an older 8-inch Pioneer by Andrew Jones, it is very musical and is ported. I have heard Rel and SVS are also good for music.
For my preference without going too deep into the reasoning, I would normally choose a sealed sub for music, and divide the budget to obtain 2 subs, unless you have access to equalisation programs aimed at subs. There's so much to gain with 2 subs working well versus a single sub, even though the absolute power output is likely to be lower than with a single sub, since getting 2 cheaper subs will reduce the maximum output and possibly the extension.
M&K push pull subwoofers for music cannot be beat. I've owned Rel, SVS, Velodyne, and many more. The accuracy and quick, tight bass response to music is unmatched.
@@JAFOpty I have no idea why RUclips keeps removing my comment I have recommended a few different models to you and for some reason they keep removing it what a bunch of a holes
For music, I very much love the ability of subwoofers to pressurize the room. Match the subwoofer or subwoofers to match the size of your room, and the speed to match your speakers. For me, two REL T7x’s worked well for music in a 23’x27’ room with a 9’ ceiling. I have Tetra speakers, same as Keith Richard’s, and Dahquist D-10’s for the surrounds, usually playing in two channel stereo.
There is a distinction between HT subwoofers and music subwoffers. HT subs play lower for the sub-audio shaking in special effects (like explosions). Audio subwoofers typically roll off around 30Hz, but can offer more sensitivity and possibly musical accuracy. They prioritize different things.
@@jimthvac100 Yay, I helping! 😁 I will say these are generalizations. I personally opted for PA subs for my home theater because for my situation they seemed best, and they can shake the house.
I built custom cabs for 2 aluminum coned Hartke 10" drivers from a 4x10 Transient Attack bass cabinet for my home theater. They are DELICIOUS. I believe it all about having the correct power ratio for the bottom to the mids and having ample headroom.
Besides Paul’s recommendation of REL, SVS or GR Research seem to be great choices as well, the latter being a DIY kit, and most likely the most bang for your buck.
I have 2 subwoofer 800watt plate amps that are identical and each has a switch on the control panel which converts the amplifier from HT to normal music response . It's very useful ... and works very well.
I use a Pioneer SW 1EX 12" with a 12" passive. D class amp. Bundles of power, great tight and fast bass. Designed by Andrew Jones at the time. I also have the smaller version, no passive but same driver, smaller box. Both have proven to be very musical and easy to blend.
There are brands that do music specific subs. REL have a line of subs (T5i, T7i, T9i) that is marketed as music specific. They say the driver is paper made so is faster, therefore integrates with the speakers better. So is it all just marketing blabla or there's some truth in that? Also would be cool to hear your opinion on REL's speakon connection method against the regular sub connection as that doesn't make any sence to me. They say you have to connect the sub to amplifier's speaker terminals(with 3 bare cables, speakon on the rel sub end) to send the exact signal out of the amp that your speakers are getting. What's the point in that when the sub is an integrated A/B amp and it reamplifies the already amplified signal.. Anyways i'm not an engeneer by any means but there's so much bs in high end audio marketing... Cheers
I own a 12" 200 watt self powered Velodyne with built in "loudness curves" you can choose between "Jazz/Classical" which is completely flat or "Movies" which has much bass boost. Also variable gain and crossover points from 40htz to 120htz. I only use for music but video with the Movie setting would be thunderous! It blends beautifully with my vintage (owned since new) full range Boston Acoustic A200s.
Right, you can use ported (HT) or Sealed (Music) however, and I could be wrong, I've heard that a SEALED design would be more nuanced for music audiophile types. That PORTED HT subs excel at SPL but are not nearly as articulate outside of their narrow boomy freq. range.
I dont know if tbey are available in the US or mainland Europe but I am a big fan of BK Electronics subs. BK used to design and manufacture for REL but now sell under their own brand direct, not through dealers. Their Monolith Plus is a highly flexible, superbly made home cinema sub and much cheaper than comparable models from the big brands. I have one in my cinema room and two double gem subs in my hifi system. The Double Gems have a 300w amp driving two 10" drivers in a sealed real wood veneered enclosure. Two of them have transformed my system. Cost for two delivered, about £800.
I wish that viewers submit these types of questions they give just a little more information about their needs. To be more specific, the main music type and average volume they they like to listen too, as well as the type of bass they desire (tight and fast or low...), as in frequency ranges, and maybe even room size too (house vs. condo/apartment). Musical subs are rare indeed, and more expensive as well. REL's are your best bet, and they are actually one of the better priced for SQ, they are very tight and very fast. If you want the best of both worlds, you are going to need deep pockets for something like a JL Audio Fathom f113v2 ...or 2 (Note: even on an acreage your neighbors might hate you!). My advise, don't get any ported sub, especially for music, you will need a DSP with time delay to just keep it in phase; ports only aid in reaching deeper notes to pressure a room plus they sound loose and sloppy 99% of the time.
Any well designed subwoofer will work for music and HT. Rythmik started as an audiophile brand, and while they now aim more for the HT crowd because that's where the money is, their subs will be top notch for music. Other good ID brands would be JTR, PSA, HSU, Monoprice Monolith and Deep Sea Sound. These brands will sound as good or better than traditional brand subs, and offer a lot more output and extension for the money.
forgive me for asking this, but how is that a mastering room without any acoustic treatment? and also, how are you able to evaluate speakers in that room?
I having problems. Denon AVR-and having my crown CTs2000 hook up. I get feed back. I hav my back speakers hooked up to a pyle pro with 2000 watt amp. The crown will not with out feed back. My other crown worked. What can I do help me please
I purchased my JBL B380 sub back in 1996. Only now is it fully appreciated from some of the latest dance music out there today. BTW, my sub is used for movies too, I manage bass for movies and multi-channel music via an OPPO-205 and for stereo music via a Pre-Pro.
REL is 'pushed' for *music* first. thats why these newer _cheaper_ REL subs are called HT. theyre trying to shine a little focus on their capability to do HT.
I use a REL Storm. One strange thing that I've noticed is that a little bit of low bass seems to open up the midrange somewhat. I guess it's a psychoacoustic effect.
It is actually more than that. Having a separate speaker to reproduce the lower frequencies will mean that those midrange drivers no longer need to attempt the reproduction of those frequencies. Therefore, the mids then require less power and become more accurate in the frequencies they were designed to reproduce. Same as if you were carrying something very heavy, then a friend came and helped you. Since you share the load, it is then easier to carry.
I have a master and slave Seaton SubMersive HP+ /w 4000 watt amp. I have heard most subwoofers because of my business and prefer the current SubMersive to any others. They are very fast, high output and very low distortion.
Just find a sealed sub. I think it dont matter too much on brand. People love Rel I like Jl audio since they make some of the best sound quality subs for vehicles. Focal makes subs, b&w, Martin logan etc. Cant go wrong with any of them if you ask me.
I have a dedicated room in my basement that serves double duty, 2 channel music and multi channel home theater. I have 2 REL and 2 Martin Logan subs. They are all sealed and do a great job for movies and music.
HT subs tend to use the THX standard x-over at 80hz. As a sound engineer that's a bad crossover point. Musically 60hz is one of the most important frequencies-- there's a reason why Neve consoles have a low end EQ selector at 63hz and 31.5hz. That's the main fundamental of a 22" kick, also known as the English drum sound. Also, subs by their very nature are out of phase with the mains. Audiophile systems usually have good response down to 40hz and it is important to hear the bass coming from your main speakers. I recommend crossing over a full octave lower than HT systems. You don't want to hear your sub; you want to feel it.
JL Audio make home audio subwoofers. They are made for home audio. Also, they are sealed. IMO sealed subwoofers are better for music, while ported are definitely the way to go for the big cinema sound and exteme low (subsonic/ bass that rattles the foundation.) All of VS sub models come with a choice of either ported or sealed. If you are a audio fanatic, the reps at SVS are going to recommend a sealed sub. If movies are your thing, those same reps are going to recommend a ported sub. SVS ported subs are unique in that some of them come with port plugs that allow you to tune your sub for music or movies, meaning you can make them function as a sealed subs to some extent. For music lovers that occasionally watch a movie, a sealed sub will serve you well in that area also. Sealed subs have a tighter bass that is more accurate and suitable for music, to include a faster bass response time. JL Audio specializes in music, in particular, bass. SVS does both, music and movies. JL Audio subs are more expensive and better IMO for music only. SVS are an excellent choice as well because they have various subs with cheaper and different price points for a wider range of consumers and I think, though I'm not sure, SVS has the best warranty on the market that is pretty much hassle free. Just so you know, JL Audio home audio subwoofers start in the low $2k and max out above $12k each. You can get a pair of SVS subs well below $2k if you're on a tight budget!
I’m hopeful for a rather simplistic answer to my subwoofer question. I know absolutely nothing about car audio other than I purchase cars with decent factory systems and never modify them. I have a 2006 Mitsubishi Endeavor with the Infinity sound system. There is a subwoofer in the back quarter panel that needs to be replaced. I had no idea how difficult this would become. Everyone I speak with wants to sell me a new package to upgrade the sound. This car sits in my driveway and is driven once a month at most. Therefore, I am not interested in modifying anything, I simply need a new replacement speaker. Compounding my problem is the lack of info for this speaker. I cannot find specs for it online anywhere. I don’t know if I need single or dual coils, 2 or 4 ohms etc. Since the audio stores I visited in person all wanted to sell me upgraded packages, I am now looking on Amazon for options and there are many. Are you able to help point me in the correct direction of what I can use for a replacement? I have pictures of the speaker if that is helpful. Thank you.
@@richardclark5112 You'd burn your driver to crisp if you ever tried getting the same spl at 20hz from a sealed box compared to a ported design with only more power. You'd need a bigger driver. For eg. 10" ported could, I think, be replaced with a 18" in a sealed box.
@@sliwka621 We are talking about the sound of music not the sound of train crashes on TV. The faster response of the sealed box is much better for music.
@@sliwka621 Because 'professionals' are not home system audiophiles who are looking (listening) for ACCURATE reproduction. Pro music guys just want/need volume and extension.
It is not that I disagree, but so have a doubt, a home theatre sub woofer can possibly perform its job without having a very ligthwait and fast membrane, Which would be instead a requirement for adding a subwoofer to a par of speakers for music. Iin a separate note, I could not find anywhere a way to see what octave record is publishing/ selling, where is it's homepage? Have they published anythi ng yet?
Best is a servo subwoofer with ability to follow the signal more precisely. Great subwoofers do the magic of making people believe the bass comes from the stereo speakers by having low harmonic distortion, as our hearing can locate higher harmonics, but not the sub bass tones. Unfortunately, few companies will tell you the true harmonic distortion figures of a subwoofer. Funny how the valuable specifications often are the ones nobody cares to advertise...rather, an amp with 0.01% THD gets promoted on the specification while nobody will tell you a subwoofer's THD, even it's quite an essential specification e.g. I've seen >10% THD in some cases.
@Fat Rat Great subwoofers do wonders :-) BTW, I live in a house with reasonable distance to my neighbors allowing me to play loud. That's a huge thing for getting the optimum sub bass experience!!! I live in an earthquake zone here in California and have had earthquakes go unnoticed as I thought it was my subwoofer shaking the house. But, during some projects, I've rented an apartment in China. Living there made me so aware why Chinese people don't appreciate sub bass. Their apartments have thin walls and neighbors will come knocking on your door and speak loud in Chinese minutes after you crank up the volume using a subwoofer. I would probably have done the same...except speaking loud in English had they used a subwoofer. I guess those quick-to-construct high-rise buildings are made with materials that work as a low pass filter matching what subwoofers do...I was on 28th floor and the walls were cracking btw. What comes up quickly, might some day come down quickly.
Thak youe mine freds! I know it because bass guiter on the E string is somethiung like 42 herts and it the string get plucked with t anail or har pick th ebass is harde to hear with the harmonis in there The lower e on a piane is something like 20 hers. I m bettign mof os what is herd is overtones. Thank yoiu, you and mister Rat are th emore hosetl anbd relibbe commentign here. thumbbs ups!
@@ThinkingBetter I heard a rumor that there is a large apartment complex (or perhaps it was an entire town?) in China that stands empty because the construction was so poor that it's too dangerous for habitation. If this kind of construction is common there (and that does sound like the case), then playing a subwoofer loudly may be downright dangerous, much less annoying!
Hare deLune China high-rise construction has boomed in the last couple of decades and what you see is that many of those buildings that hit an age of > 10 years already are starting to look really old. Usually everything is well kept and the surrounding decorative feature including park area, water fountains and so on until a building’s units are all sold and then those buildings go into decay mode with little maintenance. And if a an area with apartment buildings is not selling well and many units are left unsold, you can see it turn into a ghost town with even worse standards. Subwoofer sounds go through the walls and floors easily. So, sub bass is almost a non heard thing in China except in the cinemas and some nightclubs.
@@ThinkingBetter Makes me think of the story I read about Nikola Tesla's vibrational device which, when attached to a key support column, could raze a large building or even skyscraper in little more than minutes due to vibrational frequency reinforcement. I don't actually know if the legend is true, but it made for a great story!
In my opinion and experience Acoustic Suspension (sealed box) subs driven high speaker level (speaker outputs from the main amp) perform and sound best for a music only system. And two subs in stereo for a two channel system is the best. Careful placement and adjustment of the subs crossovers and levels is crucial to get them to "blend" with the main speakers. If this can be achieved you will be rewarded with truly full range sound and the subs will not only provide the impact but also the subtleties in low frequency content that typically only a properly configured stereo sub set up can provide. I use dual ported subs for my HT setup as they move a lot of air and absolutely precise pitch definition is not always required for most movies. Peace.
It's far easier to develop deep boom than musical bass. I use a pair of powered TBI Direct Port Modulation subs as I mostly listen to music. I've heard RELs at a number of CES and audio shows and I just wouldn't have them in my system.
I was surprised by your comment so I looked up TBI subs which I've never heard of.... a few things caught my attention, very low priced, very low power, very light weight, all things I would never expect from a quality sub...I will of course listen to one when I'm able.
Probably the biggest misconception concerning subwoofers. Sealed subwoofers are ideal for home theater IF yppou can get away with using a sealed enclosure. What do I mean by get away with it. Well, sealed enclosures deliver a tight, fast bass but they do this at the expense of less output, so if you have a large open room you will need to use multiple subs to pressurize the room to get satisfactory results. A ported sub is able to do this more easily and because of this reason they are more popular for theater applications. However, if you have a small to medium room, or if you are able and willing to spend the money to purchase more subs to achieve the same effect with a sealed subwoofer you will actually get better bass response, but at an additional expense.
It would usually depend on the size of the room and speakers for your subwoofer. Normally one would match the nominal wattage of the subwoofer with the minimum wattage of the speakers. (My rule of thumb) But then, my setup is just a humble Sony XO-V500W paired with a Sony SA-W55 active subwoofer. They blend well enough. I have the speakers near center of a 3m x 5m bedroom with the sub near the corner. Acoustically, it's more than enough. I'm not born with a silver spoon in my mouth so I make do with reliable brands from the surplus. Promise, it all comes down with the fine settings like phase, turn over, volume vs your equalizer settings and receiver's volume.
None the less, I can imagine some lesser (high end) sub woofers being adequate for home theater where you just need a roiling thunder to accompany the pyrotechnics whilst they would sound mushy with music, i.e. rumbling pyrotechnics and mushy music versus dry base :D
4 года назад+1
Hugo Bloemers glad someone brings this up! It's actually what my experience was with two different low-mid end subs. One was built by Yamaha and had a music mode and a movie mode. The difference was huge. The other one was a mid range sub by Teufel from Germany which sounded terrible when listening to music. Now I have a dedicated music sub by Canton from the same price segment and it sounds great!
If you are looking at a floor standing speaker then you have a crossover filter or passive / analog equalizer to adjust the sound so the ear hears the sound as flat as possible. On most bass boxes you don't have this! so it's not just hooking up a bass box to believe the sound will be right. The sound in the bass box is then not adjusting properly in relation to your speakers and the sound quality is not always correct! No speakers have flat sound without a little help!
I've always read that a sealed sub is the best choice for music. Of course, you can only believe half of what you read. Anyone have any input? I am considering a HSU ULS-15 when I have saved enough pennies.
Exactly. The most musical sub I've ever heard was closed-type, and it was a 10" Kef PSW2500 (irony Made in P.R.C.). The speed at which it crosses the spectrum is simply amazing. It just makes you listen and expect something all the time.
I agree. I have always used sealed for high end music reproduction. Tight, less hang over and more musical. But I love me some big ported for big movies. I could buy the HSUs 15 without question and don't look back.
Why would you not look for the same qualities in a subwoofer, as you would in any other speaker? Speed, accuracy, and transparency. Build quality, and quality electronics in the crossover. Bass is not just a thumping sound. Bass guitars, for example, have their own individual tones and textures. Yes, a lot of this is in the mid-bass frequencies, but having a fast and accurate bottom end will support those mid-bass sounds, instead of hindering them. This will have a knock-on effect throughout the frequency range, and if carried out correctly can transform an already good sounding system into a great sounding one. The opposite holds true, as well.
Super long winded comment warning. I am typically not critical of Paul's videos but I have to chime in here. First some mis- information. LFE is NOT low frequency extension or just summing the two channels to mono.It actualy stands for low freq effects and usualy has a 10db boost. I am going to paste this next piece from Dolby Labs site:LFE does not equal subwoofer Dolby Digital programs may include a bass-only LFE channel, but this channel does not correspond directly to a subwoofer output. It is possible for a program to contain an LFE channel, but a decoder may provide no subwoofer output because all of the bass information in the program, including the LFE channel, can be reproduced by the main speakers. The opposite is also true: it is possible for a program to not contain an LFE channel, yet a decoder may provide a sub woofer output because some or all of the main speakers are unable to reproduce the bass information in the program. The difference between the LFE channel and the subwoofer output is that the LFE channel is used to carry additional bass information in the Dolby Digital program while the subwoofer output represents how some or all of the bass information will be reproduced.) Now outside of just saying that most subs are marketed to HT basically and don't be too concerned about that. Yhere was no real guidance as to what to look for. Some guidelines may help such as picking out a sub that matches room size, possibly using more than one sub to even out the in-room response and taking it a step further and using a calibrated mic (available for under $100 bucks in some cases) to get a good idea of how the room and speaker system are responding as well as dealing with room modes. Going over placement tips as far as peaks and nulls to get the desired effect. Another piece of the puzzle to look at is the speaker system type. Typically panel type vs dynamic speakers usually have very quick transient response and take more care to match so the sub doesn't sound detached. The benefits of servo controlled subs sometimes are worth looking at to help in this regard (kinda surprised servo didn't come up being the history with Infinity and such, Sorry for the super long winded drop in and love the videos just felt it necessary.
When i first was in the market for a sub i listened to a Pyramid and all it did was shake the floor had no real good bass, just rumble. Decided to go with a HSU for 600 bucks i felt i made a good choice, goes down deep for movies yet very musical. imho..
I build all of my subs and find that a good "home theater" sub is a good musical sub and vice versa. My builds are capable of 100+dB at 10Hz , if that kinda headroom isn't good for music, then I don't know what is, LOL!
@Regular Guy Audio No unless you know how accustics work you won't be building a better sub. The companies use simulations and try all different things. The only thing you can do better is to use the best components and not cheap out like companies.
@@marcusm5127 subwoofers are easy to build and design, waaay easier than speakers design, subwoofer design is kids play compared to designing a speakers and we can run simulations for the subs its not that difficult, the only difficulty that arose are from the restrictions that are put of the sub.
I always noticed that sealed subs worked best for music. They are tighter, and there is no drawn out notes because of the ports typically found on subs that are more for HT. So I feel that sealed subs should be for music and ported subs for HT. The sealed subs can still get down very deep. Lower that 20hz if they are good. SVS is an example of a manufacturer of some great subs at a descent price.
They sealed cabinets also better for electruc guitar and bass. I askes a guitar guy why he has open back on his 2 x 12 cabinet, and he tols me because that where hew throwns in cables and other stuyff so it does nto ge3t lost. thankes you and thubbs ups!
I agree there. The SVS SB16 Ultra has a huge output, plays well down to 16 Hz, but is still extremely quick and tight so it is always on point even in complex bass music. Not quite as much output or low end as the ported version, but certainly way more agile and also only half the cabinet size.
@@rccardbreaks2864 I would ideally want two subs as well, but I don't want to rearrange the furniture of my room right now so I can't fit the second one in an optimal position. Fortunately I have very even response at my main listening position, but I will get around to getting a second one eventually though.
Dr. Zoidbeerg. Correctly written !! I have a pioneer car player with bass output and with 12dBA and 24dBA. 24dBA is much better. Too bad almost all bass boxes only have 12dBA.
With FULL respect to Paul, who like me is a REL fan . . . REL in fact DOES give you a choice in its subwoofer lines in which one wishes to prioritize HT as opposed to a sub primarily for listening to two channel audio. REL's HT line lacks the high level input and controls which are ideal for integration with a stereo pair of speakers. So if you're a music only fan, I'd stick with REL's Serie TX or Serie S subwoofers (which CAN ALSO do HT VERY well with their LFE connection and volume control). If on the other hand you want to shove a sub into your Home Theatre in order to listen to the thump of dinosaurs walking through your living room, I'd stick with REL's Serie TH with its LFE input and controls. . . ENJOY!
I agree a subwoofer for home theater should work with music But if you read the reviews you will find that is not always the case. It would be best to read the reviews and go from there. One other thing to concider is the "wife acceptance factor" as many wives don't want a huge sub in the living or family room in that case the 2700 watt Sunfire true subwoofer is an 11 inch cube and is said to work best with music and is easily hidden in a room. With music it can keep up with the big boys it's only movie soundtracks with frequencies below 20HZ that it falls short.
In a nutshell. If you don't have seperate Preamp and PowerAmp it is better to avoid mini DSP / Exteanal dsp that let you equalize the main speakers with Subwoofer. So those with Integrated amp can not use mini DSP / External dsp and thetefore better avoid Subwoofer. Otherwise it is too complicated and the only way would have to be choosing a Subwoofer with Speakers line in and out ( 8 speaker lines) in order to create this equilibrium by making the main speakers use the same DSP of the Subwoofer. One thing to mention is that DSP wether seperate DSP or the Sub DSP when influences the signal tgat comes to the main speakers might not be the way to go for audiophiles since you are adding extra component between the main speakers and your HiFi system. Soo. best buy a good set of speakers that go as liw as 40 Hz and enjoy their dynamics. No need for this extra low bass. Tge bass of the speakers is good enough. This will be a three way speakers not two way. Like sonus faber sonetto III or V or PS audio speakers . Or Like more echonomical Dali oberon 5 or something like that....
I've had a REL T9i supporting to my B&W 804s(see my vids). I sold it but to be honest......now I regret the selling. Now 2 SVS 3000 micro's are in my thought....🤔🤔🤔
The question was what sub is best for music...........The answere would be a sealed box type sub requiring higher amplification power delivering a faster tighter base....Not to many train wrecks and explosions in typical music that need to go as low as movie theater.
Rel are excellent no doubt about it. Regarding the high level connection marketing I think it is due to tgat every amplifier has speakers level output and not all have preout outputs . I think if every amplifier had low level output them REL would have been marketing rhe LOW level connection. All of those connections are good . Low level is jast as good as high level connection if not better in certain cases. I prefer the low level connection if SVS . Two preout outputs on your amp and two RCA cables and your done. simple. efficient. SVS performance per $$$ is unmatched.
But Paul - you DIDN'T say "How to select the best subwoofer for audio", you just talked subs, in general. Also, If REL make subs SPECIFICALLY named as for film use, 'HT', and ALSO make subs with high level inputs for music, why are you saying it makes no difference?? Even John of REL says it does.
In a nutshell. If you don't have seperate Preamp and PowerAmp it is better to avoid mini DSP / Exteanal dsp that let you equalize the main speakers with Subwoofer. So those with Integrated amp can not use mini DSP / External dsp and thetefore better avoid Subwoofer. Otherwise it is too complicated and the only way would have to be choosing a Subwoofer with Speakers line in and out ( 8 speaker lines) in order to create this equilibrium by making the main speakers use the same DSP of the Subwoofer. One thing to mention is tgat DSP wether seperate DSP ir the Sub DSP when influences the sugnal tgat comes to the main speakers might not be the way to go for audiophiles since you are adding extra component between the ma8n speakers and your HiFi system. Soo. best buy a good set if speakers that go as liw as 40 Hz and enjoy their dynamics. No need for this extra low bass. Tge bass of the speakers is good enough. Thise will be a three way speakers not two way. Like sonus faber sonetto III or V. Like more echonomical Dali oberon 5 or something like that....
A chipmunk can design a subwoofer, design your own with a *mini dsp amp plate which will drive 2 subs, if you're not DIY savvy buy a Rel, the way they connect helps a great deal with blending with your mains IF your amplifier can tolerate the speaker level connection. Can't connect the Rel speaker level then get a sealed SVS woofer. *You can make very good subwoofers with the Focal 10" car woofer. Sub_p_25_db- or the Focal 33 WX 13" Utopia Be® Subwoofer. Depending what budget you require.
Honestly this isn't great advice. I enjoy your videos Paul, but you should have made a distinction between ported vs non ported sub woofers. Ported sub woofers are terrible for music. I use a JL sealed sub and it is loud, goes very low, and most importantly, it is quick. Ported subs aren't nearly musical.
Not necessarily true. A well designed ported sub, tuned low enough, with ampel power, can behave like a sealed sub above port tuning, quick, agile, low group delay in the frequency range where most music 'sits'. Even near port tuning, group delay and port noise, do not have to be an issue if it is well designed, and often we are then talking about frequencies not present in (most) music. A sealed sub can be terrible if not designed well and for example have very high excursion and thus distortion (not by the amp) in its lower frequency range. I don't fully disagree with you, it's just there's way more to the story than can be said in 5 minutes. ps. I use sealed subs myself
Probably the Ramstein track from the Lost Highway movie soundtrack album - often used back in 1997 to test subwoofers or extremely large main front speakers.
Rel recently created a home theater line of subs. Their S and reference Series subs are designed for music first but can also do HT. This individual is looking for a music sub so to point him in the right direction I would suggest Rel S/reference or rhythmic servo controlled subs.
I agree the question was what type of sub is best for music and he did a lame job in answering the question. Sealed box subs are best for music. The base is tighter because the sub is faster in a sealed box.
SVS is a great value , great for HT or rap , rock or pop but it lacks precission , pitch control and finesse in usable 30 to 80Hz and above range for acoustic , classical or jazz music and REL is much more expensive but better there .
@@kdomster9141 I'd have definitely gone with REL if that were my taste in music. But, I listen to indie rock, dance music, movies, etc., and my dealer said I'd be happier with a pair of RBH SV-1212P.
k domster I was considering a SVS until I heard it. Fine for HT but not tight enough for music. I went with Martin Logan’s as I felt they offered a much more detailed response and were slightly more affordable than Rel. Not to mention the 1100’s I have came with XLR connections, ARC and the ability to use Bluetooth connectivity
Seeing Paul rockin' out to Rammstein is one of the greatest things I've seen this week, lol🤘
It’s me who sent you this question.. 😊.. Looks like my name was auto corrected to “Thank”.. Anyways, thanks a lot for your answer, sir!! 😊
Actually I added a REL subwoofer to my system and yes, it made a huge improvement to the sound. My Focals only go as low as 50Hz and not only the subwoofer extended the low end, it appears like the highs and minds are more prominent now.
Thanks again for your wisdom and we all learn from you a lot. Planning to visit PS Audio again next year!
I got to hear some Foc-all headphones awhile back and they were amazing but I'm not inclined to spend the price of a good used car to get them.
Good choices you've made with REL sub and Focal speakers. But don't forget there is still way more work to do in order to CORRECTLY integrate that sub into your 2 channels. Crossover frequency, sub alignment, sub positioning in the room are just a few things you need to take care of in order to obtain the most out of your system. :)
Do you also use them for home theater too, if so how do you like them so far?
@@sickjohnson I use a Polk Audio Subwoofer for home theater. I have two separate systems for Two Channel and home theater. But I'm pretty sure REL will do just fine for movies as well.
@@radzillov I totally agree. I bought this sub 3 weeks back but still fine tuning to get the best results from the integration. It will take a few more weeks before I get the best results.
It does kind of feel like there was a missed opportunity here to talk more about ported vs sealed and the differences in performance, speed, definition, etc.
Yeah I have to say, he really didn't answer the question here at all.
Front firing vs down firing. Speaker size vs room size. Subwoofer size to best match current speakers? Lots of missing info here.
@Fat Rat there is better subwoofers out there, subjectivity is a cop out. some people don't hear any difference or have a low budget, if you dont have heard any better than the one you got is the best kind of attitude.
the basics for a good subwoofer is: a quick, lightweight woofer in a sealed or open baffle design, then features like servo or some kind of dsp to tune the output for hearing, room and roloff. preferably with minimum of processing delay.
everyone like the same thing, fullrange output of a system and tight bass with definition that blends with main speakers. and lots of tactile bass. if anyone says anything different then its based on limitation not subjectivity.
Fat Rat - nothing was answered, regarding the title of the video.
@@sudd3660 some people like boomy, house rattling subwoofer. Not everyone likes the tight speedy bass.
Totally agree with Paul. The HT 1508 sounds very good in stereo listening and integrates well too. The "HT" prefix is a misnomer.
In my experience, ported subs work better for movies/home theater and sealed [acoustic suspension] subs work better for music.
If you want a subwoofer for mostly music then I would stick with an 8- or 10-inch sub. Larger subs, like 12- or 15-inch, tend to be not as fast. Also sealed subs tends to be more musical but I have found some good ported subs for music as well. I have an older 8-inch Pioneer by Andrew Jones, it is very musical and is ported. I have heard Rel and SVS are also good for music.
Your answer and a couple others were much more helpful than anything he said in this video.
For my preference without going too deep into the reasoning, I would normally choose a sealed sub for music, and divide the budget to obtain 2 subs, unless you have access to equalisation programs aimed at subs. There's so much to gain with 2 subs working well versus a single sub, even though the absolute power output is likely to be lower than with a single sub, since getting 2 cheaper subs will reduce the maximum output and possibly the extension.
M&K push pull subwoofers for music cannot be beat. I've owned Rel, SVS, Velodyne, and many more. The accuracy and quick, tight bass response to music is unmatched.
hi, any model in particular that u can recommend? tnx!
@@JAFOpty I have no idea why RUclips keeps removing my comment I have recommended a few different models to you and for some reason they keep removing it what a bunch of a holes
@@JAFOpty MX 350, MX 5000 is a beast and the X12 series is excellent as well.
@@vegaslimoguy2376 I got the reply, thank u so much. I am looking for a more "pro" sub to replace my aging sub, MK seems like a good choice!
For music, I very much love the ability of subwoofers to pressurize the room. Match the subwoofer or subwoofers to match the size of your room, and the speed to match your speakers. For me, two REL T7x’s worked well for music in a 23’x27’ room with a 9’ ceiling.
I have Tetra speakers, same as Keith Richard’s, and Dahquist D-10’s for the surrounds, usually playing in two channel stereo.
Multiple RELs - obvious for bass but also for space and better imaging brings everything together
There is a distinction between HT subwoofers and music subwoffers. HT subs play lower for the sub-audio shaking in special effects (like explosions). Audio subwoofers typically roll off around 30Hz, but can offer more sensitivity and possibly musical accuracy. They prioritize different things.
100% right. Narrow range- HT. Articulate- Sealed.
Your answer and a couple others were much more helpful than anything he said in this video.
@@jimthvac100 Yay, I helping! 😁
I will say these are generalizations. I personally opted for PA subs for my home theater because for my situation they seemed best, and they can shake the house.
I built custom cabs for 2 aluminum coned Hartke 10" drivers from a 4x10 Transient Attack bass cabinet for my home theater. They are DELICIOUS. I believe it all about having the correct power ratio for the bottom to the mids and having ample headroom.
Ha, I believe the intro song was Rammstein
Intro was absolutely Rammstein 👍
@@poserwanabe jepp. Artist Rammstein - Song Rammstein :-)
@@danrey724 and as I pro sound engineer, one of the best cutting guitar sounds of all time...IMHO 😁
@@danrey724 that's true👍
Besides Paul’s recommendation of REL, SVS or GR Research seem to be great choices as well, the latter being a DIY kit, and most likely the most bang for your buck.
Boy this was REALLY BASIC
Lol basic as balls 🏀 🏀
High sensitivity, sealed for all types of music. Paper cone - best for decent max volume, other cone materials for higher than decent max volume.
I have 2 subwoofer 800watt plate amps that are identical and each has a switch on the control panel which converts the amplifier from HT to normal music response . It's very useful ... and works very well.
Thanks for the nice explanation. Could you help me understand the test of how well my sub woofer has integrated with my mains.
I use a Pioneer SW 1EX 12" with a 12" passive. D class amp. Bundles of power, great tight and fast bass. Designed by Andrew Jones at the time. I also have the smaller version, no passive but same driver, smaller box. Both have proven to be very musical and easy to blend.
There are brands that do music specific subs. REL have a line of subs (T5i, T7i, T9i) that is marketed as music specific. They say the driver is paper made so is faster, therefore integrates with the speakers better. So is it all just marketing blabla or there's some truth in that?
Also would be cool to hear your opinion on REL's speakon connection method against the regular sub connection as that doesn't make any sence to me. They say you have to connect the sub to amplifier's speaker terminals(with 3 bare cables, speakon on the rel sub end) to send the exact signal out of the amp that your speakers are getting. What's the point in that when the sub is an integrated A/B amp and it reamplifies the already amplified signal.. Anyways i'm not an engeneer by any means but there's so much bs in high end audio marketing...
Cheers
These speakers are superseded by the new REL T5x, T7x and T9x.
I have a Rel S8 subwoffer in my music Sistem and is Fantastic, I tried others subs but Rel is the Best, Alwayssss.
I own a 12" 200 watt self powered Velodyne with built in "loudness curves" you can choose between "Jazz/Classical" which is completely flat or "Movies" which has much bass boost. Also variable gain and crossover points from 40htz to 120htz. I only use for music but video with the Movie setting would be thunderous! It blends beautifully with my vintage (owned since new) full range Boston Acoustic A200s.
Right, you can use ported (HT) or Sealed (Music) however, and I could be wrong, I've heard that a SEALED design would be more nuanced for music audiophile types. That PORTED HT subs excel at SPL but are not nearly as articulate outside of their narrow boomy freq. range.
I dont know if tbey are available in the US or mainland Europe but I am a big fan of BK Electronics subs. BK used to design and manufacture for REL but now sell under their own brand direct, not through dealers.
Their Monolith Plus is a highly flexible, superbly made home cinema sub and much cheaper than comparable models from the big brands. I have one in my cinema room and two double gem subs in my hifi system. The Double Gems have a 300w amp driving two 10" drivers in a sealed real wood veneered enclosure. Two of them have transformed my system. Cost for two delivered, about £800.
I wish that viewers submit these types of questions they give just a little more information about their needs.
To be more specific, the main music type and average volume they they like to listen too, as well as the type of bass they desire (tight and fast or low...), as in frequency ranges, and maybe even room size too (house vs. condo/apartment).
Musical subs are rare indeed, and more expensive as well. REL's are your best bet, and they are actually one of the better priced for SQ, they are very tight and very fast.
If you want the best of both worlds, you are going to need deep pockets for something like a JL Audio Fathom f113v2 ...or 2 (Note: even on an acreage your neighbors might hate you!).
My advise, don't get any ported sub, especially for music, you will need a DSP with time delay to just keep it in phase; ports only aid in reaching deeper notes to pressure a room plus they sound loose and sloppy 99% of the time.
Swing and miss here. I thought we would go far deeper into sealed vs ported vs cone size vs ect..
thank you for the Don Grusin mention. such a nice music!
Any well designed subwoofer will work for music and HT. Rythmik started as an audiophile brand, and while they now aim more for the HT crowd because that's where the money is, their subs will be top notch for music. Other good ID brands would be JTR, PSA, HSU, Monoprice Monolith and Deep Sea Sound. These brands will sound as good or better than traditional brand subs, and offer a lot more output and extension for the money.
I agree.... They are a very high value play. Great subs for the money 🙂👍
I also have a REL (Strata II) at home and I love it so much!
forgive me for asking this, but how is that a mastering room without any acoustic treatment? and also, how are you able to evaluate speakers in that room?
I was thinking the exact same thing...if I recall they were still building it up, and there might a sealed room near by too?
If you want to hear what it sounds like in somebody's real world living room.
I having problems. Denon AVR-and having my crown CTs2000 hook up. I get feed back. I hav my back speakers hooked up to a pyle pro with 2000 watt amp. The crown will not with out feed back. My other crown worked. What can I do help me please
I purchased my JBL B380 sub back in 1996. Only now is it fully appreciated from some of the latest dance music out there today. BTW, my sub is used for movies too, I manage bass for movies and multi-channel music via an OPPO-205 and for stereo music via a Pre-Pro.
REL is 'pushed' for *music* first. thats why these newer _cheaper_ REL subs are called HT. theyre trying to shine a little focus on their capability to do HT.
I had a pair of Gallo sealed subs that were terrific. They even mated with Maggiies well.
I use a REL Storm. One strange thing that I've noticed is that a little bit of low bass seems to open up the midrange somewhat. I guess it's a psychoacoustic effect.
It is actually more than that.
Having a separate speaker to reproduce the lower frequencies will mean that those midrange drivers no longer need to attempt the reproduction of those frequencies.
Therefore, the mids then require less power and become more accurate in the frequencies they were designed to reproduce.
Same as if you were carrying something very heavy, then a friend came and helped you.
Since you share the load, it is then easier to carry.
I have a master and slave Seaton SubMersive HP+ /w 4000 watt amp. I have heard most subwoofers because of my business and prefer the current SubMersive to any others. They are very fast, high output and very low distortion.
envy at maximum level
do you still run those Seatons?
so may i please inquire How to select the best subwoofer for audio ?
Just find a sealed sub. I think it dont matter too much on brand.
People love Rel
I like Jl audio since they make some of the best sound quality subs for vehicles. Focal makes subs, b&w, Martin logan etc. Cant go wrong with any of them if you ask me.
I have a dedicated room in my basement that serves double duty, 2 channel music and multi channel home theater. I have 2 REL and 2 Martin Logan subs. They are all sealed and do a great job for movies and music.
HT subs tend to use the THX standard x-over at 80hz. As a sound engineer that's a bad crossover point. Musically 60hz is one of the most important frequencies-- there's a reason why Neve consoles have a low end EQ selector at 63hz and 31.5hz. That's the main fundamental of a 22" kick, also known as the English drum sound. Also, subs by their very nature are out of phase with the mains. Audiophile systems usually have good response down to 40hz and it is important to hear the bass coming from your main speakers. I recommend crossing over a full octave lower than HT systems. You don't want to hear your sub; you want to feel it.
JL Audio make home audio subwoofers. They are made for home audio. Also, they are sealed. IMO sealed subwoofers are better for music, while ported are definitely the way to go for the big cinema sound and exteme low (subsonic/ bass that rattles the foundation.) All of VS sub models come with a choice of either ported or sealed. If you are a audio fanatic, the reps at SVS are going to recommend a sealed sub. If movies are your thing, those same reps are going to recommend a ported sub. SVS ported subs are unique in that some of them come with port plugs that allow you to tune your sub for music or movies, meaning you can make them function as a sealed subs to some extent. For music lovers that occasionally watch a movie, a sealed sub will serve you well in that area also. Sealed subs have a tighter bass that is more accurate and suitable for music, to include a faster bass response time. JL Audio specializes in music, in particular, bass. SVS does both, music and movies. JL Audio subs are more expensive and better IMO for music only. SVS are an excellent choice as well because they have various subs with cheaper and different price points for a wider range of consumers and I think, though I'm not sure, SVS has the best warranty on the market that is pretty much hassle free. Just so you know, JL Audio home audio subwoofers start in the low $2k and max out above $12k each. You can get a pair of SVS subs well below $2k if you're on a tight budget!
LFE is the specific stem going in the sub
Big difference in bass for home theater vs music. I am very please with my dual S/5 SHO REL subs.
I’m hopeful for a rather simplistic answer to my subwoofer question. I know absolutely nothing about car audio other than I purchase cars with decent factory systems and never modify them.
I have a 2006 Mitsubishi Endeavor with the Infinity sound system. There is a subwoofer in the back quarter panel that needs to be replaced. I had no idea how difficult this would become. Everyone I speak with wants to sell me a new package to upgrade the sound. This car sits in my driveway and is driven once a month at most. Therefore, I am not interested in modifying anything, I simply need a new replacement speaker.
Compounding my problem is the lack of info for this speaker. I cannot find specs for it online anywhere. I don’t know if I need single or dual coils, 2 or 4 ohms etc. Since the audio stores I visited in person all wanted to sell me upgraded packages, I am now looking on Amazon for options and there are many.
Are you able to help point me in the correct direction of what I can use for a replacement?
I have pictures of the speaker if that is helpful.
Thank you.
With subwoofers for music i tend to have a unbreakable rule, get sealed subs. After that, is all about accuracy and speed that im looking for.
Then why don't any proffesional grade subwoofers use a sealed design?
@@sliwka621 because then they’d need a much more powerful amplifier to reach similar volumes
@@richardclark5112 You'd burn your driver to crisp if you ever tried getting the same spl at 20hz from a sealed box compared to a ported design with only more power. You'd need a bigger driver. For eg. 10" ported could, I think, be replaced with a 18" in a sealed box.
@@sliwka621 We are talking about the sound of music not the sound of train crashes on TV. The faster response of the sealed box is much better for music.
@@sliwka621 Because 'professionals' are not home system audiophiles who are looking (listening) for ACCURATE reproduction. Pro music guys just want/need volume and extension.
Using genesis advanced technologies pair of G928 and works perfectly with music and movies with minor tweaks for each setup
It is not that I disagree, but so have a doubt, a home theatre sub woofer can possibly perform its job without having a very ligthwait and fast membrane, Which would be instead a requirement for adding a subwoofer to a par of speakers for music. Iin a separate note, I could not find anywhere a way to see what octave record is publishing/ selling, where is it's homepage? Have they published anythi ng yet?
Best is a servo subwoofer with ability to follow the signal more precisely. Great subwoofers do the magic of making people believe the bass comes from the stereo speakers by having low harmonic distortion, as our hearing can locate higher harmonics, but not the sub bass tones. Unfortunately, few companies will tell you the true harmonic distortion figures of a subwoofer. Funny how the valuable specifications often are the ones nobody cares to advertise...rather, an amp with 0.01% THD gets promoted on the specification while nobody will tell you a subwoofer's THD, even it's quite an essential specification e.g. I've seen >10% THD in some cases.
@Fat Rat Great subwoofers do wonders :-)
BTW, I live in a house with reasonable distance to my neighbors allowing me to play loud. That's a huge thing for getting the optimum sub bass experience!!! I live in an earthquake zone here in California and have had earthquakes go unnoticed as I thought it was my subwoofer shaking the house.
But, during some projects, I've rented an apartment in China. Living there made me so aware why Chinese people don't appreciate sub bass. Their apartments have thin walls and neighbors will come knocking on your door and speak loud in Chinese minutes after you crank up the volume using a subwoofer. I would probably have done the same...except speaking loud in English had they used a subwoofer. I guess those quick-to-construct high-rise buildings are made with materials that work as a low pass filter matching what subwoofers do...I was on 28th floor and the walls were cracking btw. What comes up quickly, might some day come down quickly.
Thak youe mine freds! I know it because bass guiter on the E string is somethiung like 42 herts and it the string get plucked with t anail or har pick th ebass is harde to hear with the harmonis in there The lower e on a piane is something like 20 hers. I m bettign mof os what is herd is overtones. Thank yoiu, you and mister Rat are th emore hosetl anbd relibbe commentign here. thumbbs ups!
@@ThinkingBetter
I heard a rumor that there is a large apartment complex (or perhaps it was an entire town?) in China that stands empty because the construction was so poor that it's too dangerous for habitation.
If this kind of construction is common there (and that does sound like the case), then playing a subwoofer loudly may be downright dangerous, much less annoying!
Hare deLune China high-rise construction has boomed in the last couple of decades and what you see is that many of those buildings that hit an age of > 10 years already are starting to look really old. Usually everything is well kept and the surrounding decorative feature including park area, water fountains and so on until a building’s units are all sold and then those buildings go into decay mode with little maintenance. And if a an area with apartment buildings is not selling well and many units are left unsold, you can see it turn into a ghost town with even worse standards. Subwoofer sounds go through the walls and floors easily. So, sub bass is almost a non heard thing in China except in the cinemas and some nightclubs.
@@ThinkingBetter
Makes me think of the story I read about Nikola Tesla's vibrational device which, when attached to a key support column, could raze a large building or even skyscraper in little more than minutes due to vibrational frequency reinforcement.
I don't actually know if the legend is true, but it made for a great story!
Hi paul can i have your opinion, what is the best japanese speaker for you?
I want to know which Speaker is playing that heavy metal, is it a pro audio speaker or hifi speaker?
This was so helpful. Thanks a million
Thank you very much Paul!
In my opinion and experience Acoustic Suspension (sealed box) subs driven high speaker level (speaker outputs from the main amp) perform and sound best for a music only system. And two subs in stereo for a two channel system is the best. Careful placement and adjustment of the subs crossovers and levels is crucial to get them to "blend" with the main speakers. If this can be achieved you will be rewarded with truly full range sound and the subs will not only provide the impact but also the subtleties in low frequency content that typically only a properly configured stereo sub set up can provide. I use dual ported subs for my HT setup as they move a lot of air and absolutely precise pitch definition is not always required for most movies. Peace.
YES ! An answere finally !
Proper headbanging. My homeboy.
That's a rockin ass track Paul!
which sub will you suggest for 11x11 untreated room a bedroom cum ht ported or sealed?
What is the best subwoofer in terms of speed , resolution and texture
Rythmik
It's far easier to develop deep boom than musical bass. I use a pair of powered TBI Direct Port Modulation subs as I mostly listen to music. I've heard RELs at a number of CES and audio shows and I just wouldn't have them in my system.
I was surprised by your comment so I looked up TBI subs which I've never heard of.... a few things caught my attention, very low priced, very low power, very light weight, all things I would never expect from a quality sub...I will of course listen to one when I'm able.
TBI, Direct Port? I feel like we're talking about an IROC Z from the 80's.
Honey. Can you please get me my Members Only jacket out of the closet? 🤣
What about ported and closed? I thought ported was for movies and closed cabin for hifi
Probably the biggest misconception concerning subwoofers. Sealed subwoofers are ideal for home theater IF yppou can get away with using a sealed enclosure. What do I mean by get away with it. Well, sealed enclosures deliver a tight, fast bass but they do this at the expense of less output, so if you have a large open room you will need to use multiple subs to pressurize the room to get satisfactory results. A ported sub is able to do this more easily and because of this reason they are more popular for theater applications. However, if you have a small to medium room, or if you are able and willing to spend the money to purchase more subs to achieve the same effect with a sealed subwoofer you will actually get better bass response, but at an additional expense.
You thought right ! Ported subs will lag behind making the music sound off.
ha senso un subwoofer con diffusori a pavimento con risposta di frequnza 25hz 30khz?
It would usually depend on the size of the room and speakers for your subwoofer. Normally one would match the nominal wattage of the subwoofer with the minimum wattage of the speakers. (My rule of thumb)
But then, my setup is just a humble Sony XO-V500W paired with a Sony SA-W55 active subwoofer. They blend well enough. I have the speakers near center of a 3m x 5m bedroom with the sub near the corner. Acoustically, it's more than enough. I'm not born with a silver spoon in my mouth so I make do with reliable brands from the surplus.
Promise, it all comes down with the fine settings like phase, turn over, volume vs your equalizer settings and receiver's volume.
None the less, I can imagine some lesser (high end) sub woofers being adequate for home theater where you just need a roiling thunder to accompany the pyrotechnics whilst they would sound mushy with music, i.e. rumbling pyrotechnics and mushy music versus dry base :D
Hugo Bloemers glad someone brings this up! It's actually what my experience was with two different low-mid end subs. One was built by Yamaha and had a music mode and a movie mode. The difference was huge. The other one was a mid range sub by Teufel from Germany which sounded terrible when listening to music. Now I have a dedicated music sub by Canton from the same price segment and it sounds great!
You want sealed box's witch require more amp power for music. That is where the faster response and tighter base comes from.
If you are looking at a floor standing speaker then you have a crossover filter or passive / analog equalizer
to adjust the sound so the ear hears the sound as flat as possible.
On most bass boxes you don't have this! so it's not just hooking up a bass box to believe the sound will be right. The sound in the bass box is then not adjusting properly in relation to your speakers and the sound quality is not always correct!
No speakers have flat sound without a little help!
I've always read that a sealed sub is the best choice for music. Of course, you can only believe half of what you read. Anyone have any input? I am considering a HSU ULS-15 when I have saved enough pennies.
Exactly. The most musical sub I've ever heard was closed-type, and it was a 10" Kef PSW2500 (irony Made in P.R.C.).
The speed at which it crosses the spectrum is simply amazing. It just makes you listen and expect something all the time.
I agree. I have always used sealed for high end music reproduction. Tight, less hang over and more musical. But I love me some big ported for big movies. I could buy the HSUs 15 without question and don't look back.
You can believe this time because thats the right answere witch you did not get watching this video.
Why would you not look for the same qualities in a subwoofer, as you would in any other speaker?
Speed, accuracy, and transparency. Build quality, and quality electronics in the crossover.
Bass is not just a thumping sound.
Bass guitars, for example, have their own individual tones and textures. Yes, a lot of this is in the mid-bass frequencies, but having a fast and accurate bottom end will support those mid-bass sounds, instead of hindering them.
This will have a knock-on effect throughout the frequency range, and if carried out correctly can transform an already good sounding system into a great sounding one.
The opposite holds true, as well.
Sealed box type sub for music.
Super long winded comment warning. I am typically not critical of Paul's videos but I have to chime in here. First some mis- information. LFE is NOT low frequency extension or just summing the two channels to mono.It actualy stands for low freq effects and usualy has a 10db boost. I am going to paste this next piece from Dolby Labs site:LFE does not equal subwoofer Dolby Digital programs may include a bass-only LFE channel, but this channel does not correspond directly to a subwoofer output. It is possible for a program to contain an LFE channel, but a decoder may provide no subwoofer output because all of the bass information in the program, including the LFE channel, can be reproduced by the main speakers. The opposite is also true: it is possible for a program to not contain an LFE channel, yet a decoder may provide a sub woofer output because some or all of the main speakers are unable to reproduce the bass information in the program. The difference between the LFE channel and the subwoofer output is that the LFE channel is used to carry additional bass information in the Dolby Digital program while the subwoofer output represents how some or all of the bass information will be reproduced.) Now outside of just saying that most subs are marketed to HT basically and don't be too concerned about that. Yhere was no real guidance as to what to look for. Some guidelines may help such as picking out a sub that matches room size, possibly using more than one sub to even out the in-room response and taking it a step further and using a calibrated mic (available for under $100 bucks in some cases) to get a good idea of how the room and speaker system are responding as well as dealing with room modes. Going over placement tips as far as peaks and nulls to get the desired effect. Another piece of the puzzle to look at is the speaker system type. Typically panel type vs dynamic speakers usually have very quick transient response and take more care to match so the sub doesn't sound detached. The benefits of servo controlled subs sometimes are worth looking at to help in this regard (kinda surprised servo didn't come up being the history with Infinity and such, Sorry for the super long winded drop in and love the videos just felt it necessary.
subwoofer bass reflex is good for hifi ?
what matters most is whether you enjoy the fatter bottom end that ported subs usually produce
When i first was in the market for a sub i listened to a Pyramid and all it did was shake the floor had no real good bass, just rumble. Decided to go with a HSU for 600 bucks i felt i made a good choice, goes down deep for movies yet very musical. imho..
I build all of my subs and find that a good "home theater" sub is a good musical sub and vice versa. My builds are capable of 100+dB at 10Hz , if that kinda headroom isn't good for music, then I don't know what is, LOL!
@Regular Guy Audio No unless you know how accustics work you won't be building a better sub. The companies use simulations and try all different things. The only thing you can do better is to use the best components and not cheap out like companies.
@@marcusm5127 subwoofers are easy to build and design, waaay easier than speakers design, subwoofer design is kids play compared to designing a speakers and we can run simulations for the subs its not that difficult, the only difficulty that arose are from the restrictions that are put of the sub.
@@Azzy_Mazzy I would say you are just wrong but perhaps you want to the bass thump and in that case you are absolutely right.
Marcus M no I’m not but ok buddy.
Ummmm No its not. You would want a sealed type box sub witch would have a higher sensitivity and faster response.
I always noticed that sealed subs worked best for music. They are tighter, and there is no drawn out notes because of the ports typically found on subs that are more for HT. So I feel that sealed subs should be for music and ported subs for HT. The sealed subs can still get down very deep. Lower that 20hz if they are good. SVS is an example of a manufacturer of some great subs at a descent price.
They sealed cabinets also better for electruc guitar and bass. I askes a guitar guy why he has open back on his 2 x 12 cabinet, and he tols me because that where hew throwns in cables and other stuyff so it does nto ge3t lost. thankes you and thubbs ups!
I agree there. The SVS SB16 Ultra has a huge output, plays well down to 16 Hz, but is still extremely quick and tight so it is always on point even in complex bass music. Not quite as much output or low end as the ported version, but certainly way more agile and also only half the cabinet size.
@@Evil_Peter absolutely!!! I have 2 svs sb4000s and they are deep, punchy and accurate. Love the 16 ultras too. Eventually they will be my upgrade!
@@rccardbreaks2864 I would ideally want two subs as well, but I don't want to rearrange the furniture of my room right now so I can't fit the second one in an optimal position. Fortunately I have very even response at my main listening position, but I will get around to getting a second one eventually though.
I would bring in my Doberman and make him go Woof Woof... Boom !!!!
Why does no one ever mention the roll off? There's a big difference between 12dBA and 24dBA per octave. That can make or break a system.
Dr. Zoidbeerg. Correctly written !! I have a pioneer car player with bass output and with 12dBA and 24dBA.
24dBA is much better. Too bad almost all bass boxes only have 12dBA.
@@ford1546 24dbA for me too. Better integration and slam.
roll off selection is very dependent on the environment which is different for everyone
With FULL respect to Paul, who like me is a REL fan . . . REL in fact DOES give you a choice in its subwoofer lines in which one wishes to prioritize HT as opposed to a sub primarily for listening to two channel audio. REL's HT line lacks the high level input and controls which are ideal for integration with a stereo pair of speakers. So if you're a music only fan, I'd stick with REL's Serie TX or Serie S subwoofers (which CAN ALSO do HT VERY well with their LFE connection and volume control). If on the other hand you want to shove a sub into your Home Theatre in order to listen to the thump of dinosaurs walking through your living room, I'd stick with REL's Serie TH with its LFE input and controls. . . ENJOY!
One word: Rel (edit: I posted it before Paul mentioned it)
HSU...better bass, just as low at half the cost. SVS is beginning to lose popularity because people are getting tired of paying stupid money.
Thank you!
Audiovector R sub Arreté is fantastic for music
Loud mids on your monitoring system there.
The Mr. Rogers of audio
I agree a subwoofer for home theater should work with music But if you read the reviews you will find that is not always the case. It would be best to read the reviews and go from there. One other thing to concider is the "wife acceptance factor" as many wives don't want a huge sub in the living or family room in that case the 2700 watt Sunfire true subwoofer is an 11 inch cube and is said to work best with music and is easily hidden in a room. With music it can keep up with the big boys it's only movie soundtracks with frequencies below 20HZ that it falls short.
It will work but would not be the best. Thats what the question was that didn't get answered.
In a nutshell. If you don't have seperate Preamp and PowerAmp it is better to avoid mini DSP / Exteanal dsp that let you equalize the main speakers with Subwoofer.
So those with Integrated amp can not use mini DSP / External dsp and thetefore better avoid Subwoofer. Otherwise it is too complicated and the only way would have to be choosing a Subwoofer with Speakers line in and out ( 8 speaker lines) in order to create this equilibrium by making the main speakers use the same DSP of the Subwoofer.
One thing to mention is that DSP wether seperate DSP or the Sub DSP when influences the signal tgat comes to the main speakers might not be the way to go for audiophiles since you are adding extra component between the main speakers and your HiFi system.
Soo.
best buy a good set of speakers that go as liw as 40 Hz and enjoy their dynamics. No need for this extra low bass. Tge bass of the speakers is good enough. This will be a three way speakers not two way. Like sonus faber sonetto III or V or PS audio speakers . Or Like more echonomical Dali oberon 5 or something like that....
I've had a REL T9i supporting to my B&W 804s(see my vids). I sold it but to be honest......now I regret the selling.
Now 2 SVS 3000 micro's are in my thought....🤔🤔🤔
The question was what sub is best for music...........The answere would be a sealed box type sub requiring higher amplification power delivering a faster tighter base....Not to many train wrecks and explosions in typical music that need to go as low as movie theater.
I've had the rel ht 1205 but my brothers t9x is much better for music. Only thing is I didn't test it in his room with his amp for a proper test
Rel are excellent no doubt about it.
Regarding the high level connection marketing I think it is due to tgat every amplifier has speakers level output and not all have preout outputs . I think if every amplifier had low level output them REL would have been marketing rhe LOW level connection.
All of those connections are good . Low level is jast as good as high level connection if not better in certain cases.
I prefer the low level connection if SVS . Two preout outputs on your amp and two RCA cables and your done. simple. efficient. SVS performance per $$$ is unmatched.
But Paul - you DIDN'T say "How to select the best subwoofer for audio", you just talked subs, in general. Also, If REL make subs SPECIFICALLY named as for film use, 'HT', and ALSO make subs with high level inputs for music, why are you saying it makes no difference?? Even John of REL says it does.
In a nutshell. If you don't have seperate Preamp and PowerAmp it is better to avoid mini DSP / Exteanal dsp that let you equalize the main speakers with Subwoofer.
So those with Integrated amp can not use mini DSP / External dsp and thetefore better avoid Subwoofer. Otherwise it is too complicated and the only way would have to be choosing a Subwoofer with Speakers line in and out ( 8 speaker lines) in order to create this equilibrium by making the main speakers use the same DSP of the Subwoofer.
One thing to mention is tgat DSP wether seperate DSP ir the Sub DSP when influences the sugnal tgat comes to the main speakers might not be the way to go for audiophiles since you are adding extra component between the ma8n speakers and your HiFi system.
Soo.
best buy a good set if speakers that go as liw as 40 Hz and enjoy their dynamics. No need for this extra low bass. Tge bass of the speakers is good enough. Thise will be a three way speakers not two way. Like sonus faber sonetto III or V. Like more echonomical Dali oberon 5 or something like that....
Not sure you addressed the question at all...
Exactly !
JL = Last sub you'll ever buy
This deserves alot more than one thumbs up .
Unfortunately alot of enthusiasts only know the more mainstream choices .
A chipmunk can design a subwoofer, design your own with a *mini dsp amp plate which will drive 2 subs, if you're not DIY savvy buy a Rel, the way they connect helps a great deal with blending with your mains IF your amplifier can tolerate the speaker level connection. Can't connect the Rel speaker level then get a sealed SVS woofer.
*You can make very good subwoofers with the Focal 10" car woofer. Sub_p_25_db- or the Focal 33 WX
13" Utopia Be® Subwoofer. Depending what budget you require.
Honestly this isn't great advice. I enjoy your videos Paul, but you should have made a distinction between ported vs non ported sub woofers. Ported sub woofers are terrible for music. I use a JL sealed sub and it is loud, goes very low, and most importantly, it is quick. Ported subs aren't nearly musical.
Not necessarily true. A well designed ported sub, tuned low enough, with ampel power, can behave like a sealed sub above port tuning, quick, agile, low group delay in the frequency range where most music 'sits'. Even near port tuning, group delay and port noise, do not have to be an issue if it is well designed, and often we are then talking about frequencies not present in (most) music.
A sealed sub can be terrible if not designed well and for example have very high excursion and thus distortion (not by the amp) in its lower frequency range.
I don't fully disagree with you, it's just there's way more to the story than can be said in 5 minutes.
ps. I use sealed subs myself
Paradigm ultracube 10
So sad they discontinued it
Paul - What band is that? It sounds awesome! 🤘🏽
Other comments have said that the band is Rammstein.
Probably the Ramstein track from the Lost Highway movie soundtrack album - often used back in 1997 to test subwoofers or extremely large main front speakers.
RAMMSTEIN!!!!!!!!!!!!! 🤘😎
Subs and matching them to speakers is an art with 2 channel audio. Paul l think that you missed the point this time.
I use car audio subs and amp made by kicker in my home...
My subwoofer has a LFE input
I found that servo subwoofers don’t make good 2 channel stereo sub.
Rel recently created a home theater line of subs. Their S and reference Series subs are designed for music first but can also do HT. This individual is looking for a music sub so to point him in the right direction I would suggest Rel S/reference or rhythmic servo controlled subs.
I agree the question was what type of sub is best for music and he did a lame job in answering the question. Sealed box subs are best for music. The base is tighter because the sub is faster in a sealed box.
Glad to hear Rammstein
MTX audio is all you need to know
I would use a SVS subwoofer sound good with AC/DC “ as well as” other rock music
Better yet: use two of them.
SVS is a great value , great for HT or rap , rock or pop but it lacks precission , pitch control and finesse in usable 30 to 80Hz and above range for acoustic , classical or jazz music and REL is much more expensive but better there .
@@kdomster9141 I'd have definitely gone with REL if that were my taste in music. But, I listen to indie rock, dance music, movies, etc., and my dealer said I'd be happier with a pair of RBH SV-1212P.
@@alex_stanley agreed , REL does not offer best value but it is the best at specific performance area .
k domster I was considering a SVS until I heard it. Fine for HT but not tight enough for music. I went with Martin Logan’s as I felt they offered a much more detailed response and were slightly more affordable than Rel. Not to mention the 1100’s I have came with XLR connections, ARC and the ability to use Bluetooth connectivity