Spindle tramming - Followup
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- This is a follow up to my previous video on this topic:
• Machine spindle tramming
Visit my website for FAQ, a list of my machines, my products and some project documentations:
gtwr.de/
Consider supporting me on Patreon:
/ stefangtwr
I post very regular on Instagram:
/ stefan_gtwr
#practitioner_of_the_mechanical_arts
After sleeping and rewatching the video myself, it feels "a bit" snarky.
That was not my intend - It felt to me that I did a bad job explaining the principle in the first video, so I tried to do a followup with a better and more extreme example.
(And I wanted to do the funny camera angle with the spindle tilted but still beeing vertical in the view. :D )
Thanks you all for chiming in :-)
The explanation was just fine (as was in the previous video as well 😉), and kind of fun as well
I thought it was kind of funny lol
This follow up really clarifies the intent of the technique by showing the extreme case.
Perhaps some viewers need to remember that you are showing them what you do and you are not telling people how they should do it. There's a big difference. Not snarky.
I had to watch this a few times to get all the nuggets of info into my brain, thanks for explaining. precision is hard :)
Best tramming video I have seen on YT so far. The angle setting makes things very clear. Much better than just talking over it - well done! 😊
Thank You for taking your time to show what is needed to make things precise as well the amount of thought about different adjustment points and how each influences the other. What you showed me is something I have been puzzled about, and now am confident my next setup should be better. I made sure I watched previous vid twice and read all comments as well to understand before I shot my mouth off. many thanks from Aust.
I am glad the video(s) helped to clarify things a bit :-)
@@StefanGotteswinter Thanks mate, I have always found your videos help a lot more than "a bit".
I could have used that tooling ball method back in the day. I apprenticed on a Bridgeport with a beat to death table. Ultimately, I made a flat disc with three adjustable feet that I could indicate to the ways, then tram to that plate.
You sure learn a lot making perfect parts on a junk machine.
Stefan! I come here to see your AMAZING machining Skills!
I have worked for people who would understand your STANDARDS of Measurements, and smile at your "one Needle Width" more than TEN MICRONS!
Please understand that THOSE few people who would Quibble over YOUR METHODS, most likely are JELOUS of your Skills, and the machinery you work with!
I now run Proxxon Mills & Lathes, even though My STORAGE has larger machines, I no longer have room for larger equipment, and so, I am happy with 0.02mm accuracy, AND I am pleased to know my German Ancestry is in my Apartment, where I have very little space.
In short, IGNORE people who think they can tell you to do it "better" UNTIL their UTUBE CHANNEL is as good as yours!
philip,
From the Great Pacific NorthWET, Oregon Division,
United States of America
Hi Stefan.
I don’t understand why some viewers challenged your method(s) ??
Thank you for having the patience to ‘clarify’ 🤣
Regards
Robert
Machinists (at least, those who do if for a living) are very inclined to take the methods they were taught as gospel.
Fascinating….. I thought I fully understood in part 1, but now I I see even clearer. Thank you Stefan. 👍👍😎👍👍
You are really a night owl Stefan! Perfect video to watch while i feed my newborn daughter.
Going to bed now :-)
@@StefanGotteswinter Hopefully me too! Have a good night! :)
Good afternoon Stefan.
I have to say I got a great chuckle at the expense of the ney sayers.
Once again well done.
Very best regards.
Ron.
Stefan, thank you. Obviously thought through very carefully, and the presentation was priceless.
A perfect demonstration of the act of measuring changing that which one is measuring. ;)
Angles can drive you crazy, as you have well demonstrated. Thanks for the video and the insights and information included.
Excellent follow up and clarification. I steer away from tilting my milling head, but really being able to tram it accurately to different angles offers a lot more set up possibilities, even on my column mill.
Ran into issues with tramming my first mill because the table itself was about .010” thicker on one side. Tramming by the table itself was a no go (as i quickly found out), used to cut blocks on the table and then trammed to those blocks. Adam’s method was much simpler. So glad he posted it, such a lifesaver. What you’re demonstrating was basically how my mill’s geometry was.
Very instructive. Again you succeeded in teaching me something. Thanks Stefan.
Thank you for the informative follow up. It makes perfect sense and does bring home exactly why tramming a spindle to the table is not the same as, and not to be preferred to tramming to the axis of the machine. 👏👏👍😀
Excellent and very important point Stefan. Thank you for all the fantastic videos
Opened my eyes! Thank you Stefan. Kind regards from John Spargo in Cape Town
if anyone was wondering how to check nod when the tilt is off you can still do the test bar method, you find the high spot on the test bar/quill, move the table down, note the indicator reading and find the high spot again, if it's higher you're nod is off, you can then use the high spots at both places to tram the tilt then move the indicator to the front of the test bar to tram nod
True! Good idea :)
After I broke the casting on my mill. For my last time traming before welding I chose to tram the KIRT vice bottom and back jaw for tilt and nod. 99% of my work is in the vice. I know this would never do for what you are doing but The mill has paid for it's self 10 times over.
Very good video Stefan..thanks for your time
Thank you!
I, too, have made good use of imagining what would happen at extremes. That quickly makes many circumstances much more easily understandable.
I remember trying to explain vector weights to my boss. If a big rig scale is perfectly level but the entry or exit area is not coplanar, then it's impossible to get accurate axle weights if the rig is longer than the scale. It made errors of quite a few thousand pounds.
For example, you might pull the rig almost entirely off the scale in order to weigh just the last two axles (the tandems).
If the bulk of the rig is not coplanar to the pads weighing the tandems, then you'll be reading an angle dependent vector weight and not the actual weight.
The driver could end up with a sizeable overweight ticket, through no fault of his own.
Very understandable 1st video and the 2nd
Thanks for the video
Great follow up video. I like your videos Stefan and your sense of humour. Good learning experience for me. Cheers Nobby
Stefan is a blessing , I have never seen a machinist pay so much attention to details 😎
What a perfect explanation! Great video (as always)
Now we need a class on scraping the old dished out ways and table into proper shape.
It was so obvious that the methods you showed in the first video Has the advantage that you cancel the error in the table like you just showed. Didn’t know the “Adams” method until then.
Great video Stefan. I just watched “This Old Tony” video on sine blocks, some similarities regarding angles, you do a great explanation. Hope you are enjoying your time. P.S: ich liebe Deutschland! 🇩🇪
Tramming to the table is fast, tramming to the movement axis is precise
(If the machine is not worn beyond useabilty, tramming to the table is usually absolutely suitable)
@@StefanGotteswinter don’t we all have a little table sag? 😔
Fantastic as usual. I would like your input on what you consider the best SEQUENCE of tramming a traditional mill. Maybe even locating alignment wear in all those used machines we all seem to get caught withe😊
You are on the BALL!
I don't know if any one commented on using a cylindrical square. Assuming your table is flat and when swept from above does not climb or fall in either axis. Use a 125 or 150 (5"or 6") cylindrical square next to the extended spindle. I have a Wells-Index 645, my problem is that I set this, and it gets bumped, as the 4 bolts do not appear to hold the head in place. I just tore all this apart this weekend, removed the solidified grease from the worm gears and cleaned the mating faces, put it back together, and now need to tram it. Looks like previous owner over torqued the 5/8" bolts, as they appear to have some thread damage. I'll use a torque wrench and set to grade 5 torque for this.
I thought your last video made perfect sense, but like the old saying goes "ask 10 machinists how do a particular task and you'll get 11 different answers" bc there's more than one way to skin a cat. But thank you for the clarification. 👍👍
Hoping to get you to 100k soon! 🤞
Thanks again, Stefan. I’m grateful for the shared knowledge. 👍
Thank you for sharing this information and video.
Great video. It is important to understand basic machine geometry. Thanks for posting this video.
I like the ball technique. It's a single point reference which to me makes it more accurate. Will takr long but hey accuracy is my thing.
Good information thank you
One has to keep an open mind how to do things
Thank you
Great educational effort. Hope it’s not pearls before swine.
Brilliant explanation! And I'm totally cool if you were a bit snarky. It's real easy to dump 💩on others anonymously VS doing and putting yourself out there as you do for our benefit. Thank you 👍🏻
There are only a very small handful of people that I think have the knowledge criticize your work, You, Dr. Dan Gelbart, Joe Pie, Gena Bazarko and Adam the machinist, if they aren't complaining, I wouldn't worry about it....
And ROBRENZ!
Stefan, that was an amazing demonstration and lesson for me! Thank you.
So disoriented, Holding the phone on an angle doesn’t seem to make it better
Its terrible, right? :D
@@StefanGotteswinter 😂 well done
He's just messing with our heads at this point, right? If only he had some convenient visual aids 🤷♂️
Before attempting to tram your milling machine you must first tram your workshop so that is it level with the world!
@@stephenbell9257 This is not a bad idea, the leveling feet that is. Concrete tends to follow the gravel in my experience. I got mine level just incase I do have to throw a level on a stubborn part.
I must make that C Shaped DTI holder. I'll search your back catalogue in case you did an episode in it.
There's a video with drawing of it.
There is at least a drawing of it :-)
gtwr.de/wiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=english:downloads:indicatorholder_en.pdf
@Stefan Gotteswinter perfect many thanks.
How about a video on the effects of weight transference on the table when it is moved to the far-left or right; especially on a very worn machine? Or the reason why the work-tables of jig-borers, planers and the like always have full coverage support on a solid base; with the work-spindle or tool being moved up and down, not the table.
Oh dont worry, the FP1 has wear :)
I dont want to :D
That would make me sleep bad.
That would be a good video.
Deckel make some milling machines and jig borers with a solid base/ work table with the head moving around the workpiece.
The weight of the workpiece has no influence on the play of the machine as it does on the conventional style mill.
Great demonstration! Thanks!
On my hbm I have it so the axis move correctly but I know the spindle is out of tram about .001”/ft it is a fine tolerance for the work I do but it annoys me to know it is out. Dismantling the head to scrape it into alignment is something I would love to do some day but it is a rather big time consuming job.
Turn the camera exposure down a little bit please, the details in the highlights are lost xoxoxo ❤❤
vaguely related is a helical milling trick.
so, you select appropriate change gears, kick the head over to the required helix angle, all good.
except no matter what you do, you cant find the appropriate change gears. its one of those leads... continuous fractions dont help...
apply trig...
kick the work over on the table to the sin, then kick the table over to get the work back in line, feed on the hypotenuse, with resultant required feed on the ...adjacent?
one of those things you would need once in a lifetime, and one of those things you will never need with CNC...
like kicking compounds over for that neat 10:1 reduction.
Got a new insight today, thanks.
Better Stuff Stefan! ;-)
ATB, Robin
None of the smart people are questioning your methods...Rock on!
Some just have blinders on. All you can do is explain to the best of your ability (which your ability is next level) and hope it might sink in.
In the US tramming when tramming the head on mills I did certain things
1) l never ran the indicator tip on the table over the tee slots.
2) To get a reading with the indicator I would sweep a known height object between the indicator tip and the table. Typically a gage block or a roller from a tapered roller bearing ground with the ends parallel to within .00005" or less.
3) Use an outer race from a high quality anti friction bearing large enough to span most of the table in the y axis. Then you could swipe without suffering any crashes in the tee slots. The bearing race could be ball or roller types as it was from a high quality bearing. ABEC 7 or a low number class ISO grade.
4) If the mill was a Bridgeport use a height gage to align the surfaces that the ruler for the quill depth sits against. It gets you in the ball park.
On a benchtop mill I think a good option would be to come up with a way to use a pin to position the head. And after locking the head in place remove the pin.
Thank you.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. Ignore the trolls.
Good advice!
I have a Van Norman 1/2. I only have nod adjustments because it is a vertical and horizontal mill. I can't get it to tram in every direction. I can get it in the X or Y but not both.
Thanks 👍
I absolutely love the versatility per cubic centimeter of those deckel mills! With regards to the idea of “nod” like on a Bridgeport, is the spindle on a deckel presumed to be perfectly vertical in that plane consummate to its geometric wear? Or does it have a manner of adjusting/correcting the spindle axis in that direction?
Ha! The spindle nod on the deckel machines IS a problem with wear, absolutely correct. On the smaller machines less, since the FP1 has only 150mm and a rather long dovetail. But on the larger machines, they even had to scrape a bow into the Y-Axis ram, to counteract the sag from gravity. With wear they tend to sag more and more, the further outwards you go.
7:30 I see what you are doing there. However On a Bridge Port or like my TREE knee mill. Moving the Z or ZED like that would be a chore. Keep in mind My mill is 80 yrs old.
Sometimes you know what to say and do, and you’ve done it before but no matter how hard you try you can’t demonstrate it to the audience adequately for them to appreciate the technique.
Like any good practitioner, and through no fault of your own, demonstration of a skill to the novice or initiated or even an expert in the field will not allow you to prove the technique.
So it’s at times like this when loud music, head banging on the vice, mumbling and substance abuse are the only answer.
I got it the first time.
Thanks and take care.
👆My comment in the other video regarding the cross hatch pattern was not to say your methods are incorrect, per se, but incomplete. I would never tram to the table or any other part of the machine. Instead I put a piece of material in and take a light fine cut across in the axis I'm working on and then tram to THAT surface because it represents the TRAVEL of the axis which is all that counts. Repeat for the other axis and it will be pretty close but still not perfect.
Why is it not perfect? I bought a Blake coaxial indicator and their literature claimed that tramming with their tool under power simulates the loads with motor torque and other forces accounted for. They are correct. A perfectly trammed machine adjusted statically will not be perfect under power. But the Blake indicator is not accurate enough for my needs. So my final adjustment is to tap and test till it cross hatches in all directions.
You mentioned in your reply how some machines cannot have a cross hatch in both directions, this is true as I have seen but if that is the case then that machine probably cannot be relied on to produce the result you want either. It is suffering from play somewhere in the system.
You made it clear in this video that you are tramming to the axis of TRAVEL and not to a surface such as a table top so We are both on the same page that far. The only difference is how to do it. I get the machine to make a sample of it's travel by machining a piece and measuring to that. Then we part company because I then test for cross hatch in all directions but if it can't then I adjust for equal but opposite patterns in opposite directions. (the cross hatch is still visible at the edges of the cutter path even if it does not extend all the way to the center of the cut. That way I can face off large surfaces without leaving perceptible steps between overlapping passes.
I am loving this discussion with you!🏆
Ah! The flycutting statement was not in regard to your comment :)
(And I absolutely agree that tramming for a large flycutter and crosshatch is tough)
(Also agree on the co-ax indicators like the Blake beeing not great precision tools)
I imagine those machines that surface engine/zylinder blocks with huge face mills, leaving a nice pattern beeing a pain to get trammed well.
Excellent.
After reviewing both videos, I believe your logic is sound.Others may have a differing opinion but, I would like to know why they believe your logic is flawed.
I need to tram my head
I'm nodding in agreement😉
The deckel tooling ball, being much larger (16+mm in diameter iirc) will be less frustrating to use, though, a tiny bit less accurate
The one that came with the Zentricator?
@@StefanGotteswinterwell, not 100% sure about this, but I can't recall a space in the centricator box for this part. I am talking about a thing with a block and hole (to be fixed via bolt in tslot) and then an arm at an angle that ends up in a hefty ball
THIS IS THE RIGHT WAY,
SAME AS A BRIDGEPORT
closing up on 100K!
Sounds so crazy to me. 100k. Completely weird.
❤
Trigonometry!
"'Ain't no such thing as halfway crooks" (if anyone gets this reference they are in the overlap of a very niche Venn diagram and I would like to meet them).
Scared to death and scared to look they shook
Unlike yesterday's video, this had me totally lost. Lol. As it should be for a non machinist. Lol
Then I did a bad job explaining:/
@@StefanGotteswinter no I just don't know much about milling. It was the tilted table that threw me.
I can't figure out why he didn't slide across the floor, tilted like that. Special high-friction socks, I guess.
Shop-Crocs my good sir :)
👍
If you think it's not possible, use your imagination. It will work :)
Did some armchair machinist dispute Stefan’s knowledge and experience and upset him enough to make him this video?
Wow! You tilted earth to demonstrate good tramming techniques, how do you get the head immovable in 3d space?🤣
Its a M.C. Escher shop! Gravity and geometry are only an option here :-)
@@StefanGotteswinter in normal milling, e.g. head vertical to x and y axis, as a rule of thumb, its would be better to tram the bed, and then tram the intermediate fixing device, like the machining vice for best results?
Are you milling in a ship at a major list :D (I'm kidding of course)
Oh boy :D There was always the discussion about tramming/leveling a lathe on a ship on practical machinist. It was a ever recuring shitshow-discussion.
@@StefanGotteswinter yes, Practical Machinist really seems to embrace incivility. It’s kind of sad.
I sense a bit impatience. It's as if you're teaching a student after class who failed to learn the procedure. Achtung! 😂
To be honest, i just wanted to do the "spindle tilted but camera tilted too, so it appears vertical "-joke 😄😂
Intro Copyright strike!!!! Joe pie wants his royalties 😡
🤣😂
✌️💖&💡 via 🇺🇸
I hope Joe is ok with that ;)
"I have my spindle trammed to the table, as one does"
Are we not civilized?
I tramed the vice. js
One may.
What purpose does this serve?
Trying to give a better explanation on why/how we tram a certain way.
Ver-ti-cal-i-ty?
Yes, that :D
Why does the collet sleeve not fall out of the spindle when you change collet? It does that on my FP2 😢
They fall out, when the spindle taper or the sleeve are not in perfect condition, have nicks or are dirty.
If all those things are in good condition, the sleeve (and all 40 taper tooling) will not fall out the taper by itself - The sleeve has to be released with a large wrench on the flats (it breaks loose relatively easy) and regular 40 taper tooling gets ejected by the drawbar.
Thanks for the answer. Yes, there are unfortunately some scratches inside the spindle taper on my FP2. So that is probably the cause. Is it possible to stone the spindle taper? Or is there some other way to fix up the taper?
@@gustavnaslund2111 Take a mirror and a flashlight and have a veeeeeeeeeeery good look into the taper - Look for high spots, where maybe a tiny chip has embedded and use a small triangular scraper to remove the offending material - You can use a round stone, but pleeeeeeeeeease only the most fine stone you can find, an round Arkansas for example, and exercise extreme caution.
Dee Dee on RUclips has some videos on scraping in a damaged mill spindle taper.
Is this a joke Steffan I never question your explanation if I want to learn something your my choice. No question asked.
I hope this video didn't appear to snarky - It was not my intend. But after going trough the comments, I had the feeling that I did a bad job explaining the principle, therefore the followup :)