Ian Cooper here. Thanks so much for this wonderful and supremely detailed review of my game "Raiders of the Deep". I really appreciate the depth (no pun intended) you went into to explain the various aspects of the game.
@@AeroEngine1963 Your best bet might be to look for second-hand sales on one of the European eBay sites. I guess Compass Games must ship to Europe, but I'm guessing shipping across the Atlantic is awfully expensive these days. If you can't find any on the second-hand market, Compass Games runs some good sales every now and then.
Can I just take a moment to point out the amazing "Reivers Of The Seas" add on for this amazing game which is in the files section on BGG. It lets you fight out boarding actions and skuttle ships or take them as prizes. It adds *tonnes* to the immersion with only one additional decision chart.
I had a friend whose grandfather was an admiral in the Austrian Navy. Since Austria is landlocked today, he frequently got laughed at (Oh, I guess the Swiss navy didn't want him!"). Of course, Trieste was a huge port and part of the Austro-Hungarian empire. Looks like a fun game. Thanks for the great video.
@@ZillaBlitz this just in: Georfmg von Trapp, patriarch of the singing von Trapps, was quite the U-boat captain in the Austrian navy. Trapp was the most successful Austro-Hungarian submarine commander of World War I,[b] sinking 11 Allied merchant ships totaling 47,653 GRT and two Allied warships displacing 12,641 tons.[5] Trapp's accomplishments during World War I earned him numerous decorations, including the Military Order of Maria Theresa.
Considering this is designed based on the Hunters and Silent Victory this can only be a great thing. Those were some of my favourite playthroughs you've done on the channel. Such brilliant story telling/making games. I love the extra detail that has gone into this game too. The amount of historical detail is mad. It must have taken them so long just to collect all of that information.
Yes, I want to return to a solo playthrough of a game like this and am thinking that Raiders of the Deep would work perfectly. Now I just have to find the time to make it. :)
Of the whole solitaire submarine commander genre, I think this and Beneath the Med are my favourite two. I like the fact that they're both out of the mainstream and confront you with scenarios of 'I don't want to do this, but honour compels me'! Such as cruiser rules restrictions on the one hand, and the emergence of Q-Ships on the other. You curse at the one and quake at the other! Great game and it's certainly earned its keep on my table.
You show subs I click. Great overview of this mate and hope for a sneaky series. The depth looks wicked and especially for a good ole campaign career I love the historical aspects as well.
During the COVID apocalypse we played this via Zoom and Vassal. We played the entire war from 1914 thru 1918. While it was fun to get together and play, we didn't find the game challenging and found it to have a large portion of luck trying to find a target (essentially a luck driven die rolling contest) which was less enjoyable. One point of great discussion was trying to remember the correct rules for following a ship/convoy - just our mental block.
@@ZillaBlitz We played from 1914 through 1918 as there really wasn’t much to do during COVID. The different densities made the game different but not exciting as finding a target was pretty luck based. I’m still glad we played but we won’t do it twice. Enjoy!
Oh, haha! I didn't even plan that. Total accident. I'm hoping to create a playthrough at a relaxed pace, but I might not have time until next month. Not sure. :)
Me being me, I first played A-H. Learn from me, get comfortable with Germany first instead of learn the rules and also the variation at the same time. A great addition on BGG is a detailed prize rules flowchart for inspecting shipping to see if they are supplying an enemy nation
Love these sub games and defo need to acquire this one. They are never the same twice and just when you think you have that capital ship, along comes an escort or a dud torpedo. Looking at Zeppelin Raider, sub of the skies, on KS. Thanks for the review.
I've played The Hunters, The Hunted and Silent Victory and I can tell you that your decisions do affect what does and doesn't happen to your submarine. You make a poor decision and things can go south fast. I love the series and would like to get this one as I don't have any ww1 games and I need to rectify that.
Totally agree on the poor decisions ending your career fast. The part that I think sometimes can rub people the wrong way is when you make the right decisions and your career ends fast. I'm totally okay with that, though, given the historical context of these games. This sub-genre of solo games is one of my favorites. ... See what I did there? ;)
@@ZillaBlitz I like that even if I make the right choices my sub can wind up imploded at the bottom of the sea. I agree! I am still trying to get hard copies of Silent Victory and The Hunters. Now I want a sub...okay your treat!
Played a game just last week..set sail in 1915 Flanders Flotilla, 1st day of my career been caught in an anti-sub net in the channel (in very first patrol box)... tried to wriggle free.. spotted by escort... rammed...dead & all hands lost, I do get why people don´t like this sort of game, but for me, it does scratch my fatalistic itch
The English Channel is exciting but brutal. It was considered the most deadly theater for the U-boats - the U-boat Graveyard, they called it. The Black Sea is almost as deadly, but perhaps even more soul-crushing from the player's perspective, as the targets are few and far between and minefields are extensive there, so death always comes without warning. The North Sea is perhaps the best balance, and for those who really don't like getting killed, the Mediterranean is the best bet, although running up those massive tonnage numbers with so little threat to the U-boat it can be a bit boring.
Great to hear on the difficulty of the areas. I might try the North Sea to start out then. And I feel for your loss on that first mission. I've heard others tell similar stories of instant death with some of the other games in the series, and yeah, stuff happens. It's a lot worse when it happens with a sub that's had a long run.
@@ZillaBlitz Survival is more likely in RotD than in "The Hunters", and a lot more possible than it is in in "The Hunted". But it's not a walk in the park. I reckon a player who has figured out the game system should achieve a 50% survival rate, on average (which was the historical average). You can modify that by the theater you choose: English Channel is exciting but difficult, North Sea is fun and not too difficult, Mediterranean easy and massive tonnage but maybe a little boring. The other campaigns are for the true simulation fan as they don't generate much tonnage: surviving a Black Sea campaign is a real achievement as it can be soul destroying, Baltic keeps you iced in for half the year, Austrian campaign is quirky and kinda fun but you get very little tonnage. Lots of players seem to find the North Sea or the Austrian campaign hit the sweet spot for them, but some folks love the challenge of an English Channel campaign.
It is. I wanted "Raiders of the Deep" to be graphically the same as "The Hunters" and "The Hunted", as I wanted players of those games to feel they're in familiar territory. In terms of the rules, although "Raiders of the Deep" begins with quite a few differences from "the Hunters", by the end of the war, as Allied technology starts to have an effect, the rules pretty much fall into line with how "The Hunters" begins (the only remaining difference being ramming attacks). So owners of all three games can see very clearly how the technology steadily evolves from 1914 to 1945.
Great review (as usual), Mike! These kind of games are so much fun. Especially when you point out the amount of decisions that need to be made. That, combined with the story elements and narrative make these so much fun. I regularly play "Target for Today" and "MAG 23" and (especially "MAG 23") both are similar regarding player input. What do you shoot at, how many planes do you put up, what about the weather, do you abort, which guns do you use to shoot at the fighter coming in at 12 o'clock high, do you use a power turret or a hand-held 0.50 cal. etc. I am waiting for my copy of "Silent Victory" and I think this one will also be purchased soon. Thanks again... -Dan😄
Glad you liked it, Dan! I'm looking forward to trying MAG-23 and am glad to hear you are enjoying it. I am probably going to start a campaign with this game too. I hope you enjoy Silent Victory!
@@ZillaBlitz I'm in the middle of a MAG campaign and I have multiple guys with malaria, sent home, POW etc. It really does tell a great narrative (as you have talked about before). Can't wait for SV some time this summer. Keep up the excellent work...
The rules/notes mention that the Mediterranean theater was a glorious place to be as a U-boat commander. Lots of targets and few threats. So maybe he was down there?
I captured an enemy ship on the way back to port and detailed part of my crew to steer the freighter back to Germany. In the first inbound transit box my boat struck a mine sending me and my crew to a watery grave. 😢. It's a great game but often cruel.
Yes, it can be cruel. I carefully balanced the game so that it recreated the deadliness of WWI U-boat combat very accurately. A big part of that is mines. In the real U-boat war in WWI, 50% of U-boats that were sunk fell victim to mines, and mines (when anchored properly) are an invisible killer, so U-boat crews in WWI had very little chance of avoiding them - it was pretty much down to pure luck. In the game it's the same story - your only chance of avoiding mines is if you have a well-trained crew, and even then there's still a lot of luck involved. But the good news is that, with careful play, you can expect about half your crews to survive the war. But careful play is the key.
@@Beery1962 Thanks for your prompt reply Beery. Most appreciated. I can't help but think about the crew who escaped death by commandeering the enemy prize freighter back to port. What shock they must have received when informed about their subs demise. Thanks again for your outstanding game.
@@michaelstearnes1526 Yeah, one of the most fun aspects of games like this, I think, is when unusual things like this happen that just enhance the game beyond even what the designer planned for. I had never considered that this might happen - never even crossed my mind, but clearly it happened for you, and you might be the only "Raiders of the Deep" player who has had that experience. It's so great that the game can give this sort of unique experience. Also, from the perspective of the crew, I guess that feeling of having cheated fate, and the loss of one's comrades, are things that would undoubtedly have haunted the survivors, and that feeling can add so much depth for the player. It might be fun to have the survivors join the crew of a new U-boat, and then play that crew until the end of the war. The added history that those men have is just that bit of extra nourishment for the player's imagination.
Hey, a sincere question: this game (like many complex ones) seems to work better as a PC game. Would you please share your thoughts on why boardgame vs. PC game? I ask because I was a boardgamer as a child but turned to PC games for over 20 years and only more recently got back to boardgames. But, still, it seems many boardgames would be better if on a PC. I'd appreciate your thoughts. Can you consider making a video discussing this comparison? Thanks.
I don't know if I'd want to make a whole video on the topic yet, but this might make for a good topic for a monthly update. I do have a few thoughts on the topic, yeah.
I think many of the wargamers types, like myself, are seniors who find time spent hunkered down in front of the computer a sub-optimal gaming choice. Whereas playing on a table involves just enough moving around to reduce pain from stiff joints, and eye strain from the screen. I still spend a lot of time on-line, but nothing else sucks me in for hours like a good game! Don't get me wrong, I enjoy PC games (too much), but I don't buy them (or play them on sites like vassal, or rally-the-troops) for exactly that reason.
@@ZillaBlitz I think that would be a great video to get lot's of folks involved. I think there are many wargames that work better on-line because they can set up faster (and saved), and details like damage and supplies can be tracked on line, as well as FoW. The benefit/cost coefficient just doesn't work for me, any longer.
@@SoloBattles Same here. I decided to play boardgames to get away from my PC. However, some wargames have incredibly complicated mechanics that a PC would excel in executing. This is why I'm interested in knowing others' experiences. Thanks for sharing.
I guess the environment impacts choices of platforms: I enjoy Sniper Elite the Board game and all 5 of the PC versions. Ultimate Admiral / General make great media driven games. Some days the choice is quiet with the Hunter series or Maquis. Board games induce more concentration while PC games induce responses, Stealth Games on Steam hard to make as board game: Actual story of SOE female assassin, Violette Summer, during WW 2. I would think Rebellion could make a great updated version of this. How did Ubi-soft miss these? Velvet Assassin (2008) ruclips.net/video/Z1NCc4vMTd8/видео.html and Stolen (2005) Female thief: ruclips.net/video/viLYc9xdNTc/видео.html Regards
Ian Cooper here. Thanks so much for this wonderful and supremely detailed review of my game "Raiders of the Deep". I really appreciate the depth (no pun intended) you went into to explain the various aspects of the game.
My pleasure, Ian. Thanks for creating this game, I look forward to digging in. :)
Great design
Hey Ian, You wouldn't know of an easy way to get your games in europe?
@@AeroEngine1963 Your best bet might be to look for second-hand sales on one of the European eBay sites. I guess Compass Games must ship to Europe, but I'm guessing shipping across the Atlantic is awfully expensive these days. If you can't find any on the second-hand market, Compass Games runs some good sales every now and then.
My favourite submarine game!
Can I just take a moment to point out the amazing "Reivers Of The Seas" add on for this amazing game which is in the files section on BGG. It lets you fight out boarding actions and skuttle ships or take them as prizes. It adds *tonnes* to the immersion with only one additional decision chart.
Oh, thanks. I'll check that out. Much appreciated. :)
I had a friend whose grandfather was an admiral in the Austrian Navy. Since Austria is landlocked today, he frequently got laughed at (Oh, I guess the Swiss navy didn't want him!"). Of course, Trieste was a huge port and part of the Austro-Hungarian empire.
Looks like a fun game. Thanks for the great video.
That's funny! :)
@@ZillaBlitz this just in: Georfmg von Trapp, patriarch of the singing von Trapps, was quite the U-boat captain in the Austrian navy.
Trapp was the most successful Austro-Hungarian submarine commander of World War I,[b] sinking 11 Allied merchant ships totaling 47,653 GRT and two Allied warships displacing 12,641 tons.[5] Trapp's accomplishments during World War I earned him numerous decorations, including the Military Order of Maria Theresa.
This means I might have to get this game!
Yeah, his historical card is in the game, too. :)
Considering this is designed based on the Hunters and Silent Victory this can only be a great thing. Those were some of my favourite playthroughs you've done on the channel. Such brilliant story telling/making games.
I love the extra detail that has gone into this game too. The amount of historical detail is mad. It must have taken them so long just to collect all of that information.
Yes, I want to return to a solo playthrough of a game like this and am thinking that Raiders of the Deep would work perfectly. Now I just have to find the time to make it. :)
Of the whole solitaire submarine commander genre, I think this and Beneath the Med are my favourite two. I like the fact that they're both out of the mainstream and confront you with scenarios of 'I don't want to do this, but honour compels me'! Such as cruiser rules restrictions on the one hand, and the emergence of Q-Ships on the other. You curse at the one and quake at the other! Great game and it's certainly earned its keep on my table.
Great to hear about this one, thanks! And that's one of the things I like about the genre, that fine line between bravery and recklessness. :)
You show subs I click. Great overview of this mate and hope for a sneaky series. The depth looks wicked and especially for a good ole campaign career I love the historical aspects as well.
Yes, I'm hoping to try to sneak a series in. :)
During the COVID apocalypse we played this via Zoom and Vassal. We played the entire war from 1914 thru 1918. While it was fun to get together and play, we didn't find the game challenging and found it to have a large portion of luck trying to find a target (essentially a luck driven die rolling contest) which was less enjoyable. One point of great discussion was trying to remember the correct rules for following a ship/convoy - just our mental block.
Sounds like the different flotilla zones make for a very different game based on target density and threat level. I think I'll try the North Sea.
@@ZillaBlitz We played from 1914 through 1918 as there really wasn’t much to do during COVID. The different densities made the game different but not exciting as finding a target was pretty luck based. I’m still glad we played but we won’t do it twice. Enjoy!
Yet another fine video. Thank you!
My pleasure, thanks for stopping in. :)
Love this overview! Very well done!
Thanks, Nathan! :)
Appreciate the deeper dive into this one 😏
My pleasure. :)
Excited for this series!
Me too. :)
Oh another Sub Game Yes ! Lets play it
I was thinking the other day that it is about time to go back into the Atlantic.
"Deep dive look". I see what you did there! :) Any chance of a playthrough video? You do those so well. They do take time though.
Oh, haha! I didn't even plan that. Total accident. I'm hoping to create a playthrough at a relaxed pace, but I might not have time until next month. Not sure. :)
Me being me, I first played A-H. Learn from me, get comfortable with Germany first instead of learn the rules and also the variation at the same time.
A great addition on BGG is a detailed prize rules flowchart for inspecting shipping to see if they are supplying an enemy nation
I'll check out that flowchart, thanks. :)
@@ZillaBlitz If you do, it's called reivers of the sea. I've enjoyed using it. Your milage may vary.
My favorite conflict!
I'm curious to see how differently it plays from the WW2 ones. :)
Love these sub games and defo need to acquire this one. They are never the same twice and just when you think you have that capital ship, along comes an escort or a dud torpedo.
Looking at Zeppelin Raider, sub of the skies, on KS. Thanks for the review.
Yes, I do think they capture a lot of the tension, excitement, and agony of submarine warfare. The whole genre is fascinating to me. :)
I've played The Hunters, The Hunted and Silent Victory and I can tell you that your decisions do affect what does and doesn't happen to your submarine. You make a poor decision and things can go south fast. I love the series and would like to get this one as I don't have any ww1 games and I need to rectify that.
Totally agree on the poor decisions ending your career fast. The part that I think sometimes can rub people the wrong way is when you make the right decisions and your career ends fast. I'm totally okay with that, though, given the historical context of these games. This sub-genre of solo games is one of my favorites. ... See what I did there? ;)
@@ZillaBlitz I like that even if I make the right choices my sub can wind up imploded at the bottom of the sea. I agree! I am still trying to get hard copies of Silent Victory and The Hunters. Now I want a sub...okay your treat!
I think both The Hunters and Silent Victory are finally making their way to the top of the reprinting list. :)
@@ZillaBlitz I know! I have them on P500 but impatient me does not want to wait hah.
I found a Silent Victory on clearance about a year ago for $15 or something like that. I moved it on to a friend, though, so I no longer have it.
nice review
Thanks!
Played a game just last week..set sail in 1915 Flanders Flotilla, 1st day of my career been caught in an anti-sub net in the channel (in very first patrol box)... tried to wriggle free.. spotted by escort... rammed...dead & all hands lost, I do get why people don´t like this sort of game, but for me, it does scratch my fatalistic itch
The English Channel is exciting but brutal. It was considered the most deadly theater for the U-boats - the U-boat Graveyard, they called it. The Black Sea is almost as deadly, but perhaps even more soul-crushing from the player's perspective, as the targets are few and far between and minefields are extensive there, so death always comes without warning. The North Sea is perhaps the best balance, and for those who really don't like getting killed, the Mediterranean is the best bet, although running up those massive tonnage numbers with so little threat to the U-boat it can be a bit boring.
Great to hear on the difficulty of the areas. I might try the North Sea to start out then. And I feel for your loss on that first mission. I've heard others tell similar stories of instant death with some of the other games in the series, and yeah, stuff happens. It's a lot worse when it happens with a sub that's had a long run.
@@ZillaBlitz Survival is more likely in RotD than in "The Hunters", and a lot more possible than it is in in "The Hunted". But it's not a walk in the park. I reckon a player who has figured out the game system should achieve a 50% survival rate, on average (which was the historical average). You can modify that by the theater you choose: English Channel is exciting but difficult, North Sea is fun and not too difficult, Mediterranean easy and massive tonnage but maybe a little boring. The other campaigns are for the true simulation fan as they don't generate much tonnage: surviving a Black Sea campaign is a real achievement as it can be soul destroying, Baltic keeps you iced in for half the year, Austrian campaign is quirky and kinda fun but you get very little tonnage. Lots of players seem to find the North Sea or the Austrian campaign hit the sweet spot for them, but some folks love the challenge of an English Channel campaign.
Great information, thanks! I think North Sea or English Channel sound perfect for me. :)
Looks like Silent Victory/The Hunters, components, combat flow-chart and all.
Yep, it's based on those games, with modifications for World War 1. :)
It is. I wanted "Raiders of the Deep" to be graphically the same as "The Hunters" and "The Hunted", as I wanted players of those games to feel they're in familiar territory. In terms of the rules, although "Raiders of the Deep" begins with quite a few differences from "the Hunters", by the end of the war, as Allied technology starts to have an effect, the rules pretty much fall into line with how "The Hunters" begins (the only remaining difference being ramming attacks). So owners of all three games can see very clearly how the technology steadily evolves from 1914 to 1945.
Great review (as usual), Mike! These kind of games are so much fun. Especially when you point out the amount of decisions that need to be made. That, combined with the story elements and narrative make these so much fun. I regularly play "Target for Today" and "MAG 23" and (especially "MAG 23") both are similar regarding player input. What do you shoot at, how many planes do you put up, what about the weather, do you abort, which guns do you use to shoot at the fighter coming in at 12 o'clock high, do you use a power turret or a hand-held 0.50 cal. etc. I am waiting for my copy of "Silent Victory" and I think this one will also be purchased soon. Thanks again... -Dan😄
Glad you liked it, Dan! I'm looking forward to trying MAG-23 and am glad to hear you are enjoying it. I am probably going to start a campaign with this game too. I hope you enjoy Silent Victory!
@@ZillaBlitz I'm in the middle of a MAG campaign and I have multiple guys with malaria, sent home, POW etc. It really does tell a great narrative (as you have talked about before). Can't wait for SV some time this summer. Keep up the excellent work...
Good to know about MAG-23, thanks! The campaign sounds fantastic.
Wow! That one German commander had 499K tons sunk!
The rules/notes mention that the Mediterranean theater was a glorious place to be as a U-boat commander. Lots of targets and few threats. So maybe he was down there?
That would have to be Lothar von Arnauld de la Perière - highest scoring submarine commander in history.
I captured an enemy ship on the way back to port and detailed part of my crew to steer the freighter back to Germany. In the first inbound transit box my boat struck a mine sending me and my crew to a watery grave. 😢. It's a great game but often cruel.
Ouch! The submariner's life.
Yes, it can be cruel. I carefully balanced the game so that it recreated the deadliness of WWI U-boat combat very accurately. A big part of that is mines. In the real U-boat war in WWI, 50% of U-boats that were sunk fell victim to mines, and mines (when anchored properly) are an invisible killer, so U-boat crews in WWI had very little chance of avoiding them - it was pretty much down to pure luck. In the game it's the same story - your only chance of avoiding mines is if you have a well-trained crew, and even then there's still a lot of luck involved. But the good news is that, with careful play, you can expect about half your crews to survive the war. But careful play is the key.
@@Beery1962 Thanks for your prompt reply Beery. Most appreciated. I can't help but think about the crew who escaped death by commandeering the enemy prize freighter back to port. What shock they must have received when informed about their subs demise. Thanks again for your outstanding game.
@@michaelstearnes1526 Yeah, one of the most fun aspects of games like this, I think, is when unusual things like this happen that just enhance the game beyond even what the designer planned for. I had never considered that this might happen - never even crossed my mind, but clearly it happened for you, and you might be the only "Raiders of the Deep" player who has had that experience. It's so great that the game can give this sort of unique experience. Also, from the perspective of the crew, I guess that feeling of having cheated fate, and the loss of one's comrades, are things that would undoubtedly have haunted the survivors, and that feeling can add so much depth for the player. It might be fun to have the survivors join the crew of a new U-boat, and then play that crew until the end of the war. The added history that those men have is just that bit of extra nourishment for the player's imagination.
Hey, a sincere question: this game (like many complex ones) seems to work better as a PC game. Would you please share your thoughts on why boardgame vs. PC game? I ask because I was a boardgamer as a child but turned to PC games for over 20 years and only more recently got back to boardgames. But, still, it seems many boardgames would be better if on a PC. I'd appreciate your thoughts. Can you consider making a video discussing this comparison? Thanks.
I don't know if I'd want to make a whole video on the topic yet, but this might make for a good topic for a monthly update. I do have a few thoughts on the topic, yeah.
I think many of the wargamers types, like myself, are seniors who find time spent hunkered down in front of the computer a sub-optimal gaming choice. Whereas playing on a table involves just enough moving around to reduce pain from stiff joints, and eye strain from the screen. I still spend a lot of time on-line, but nothing else sucks me in for hours like a good game!
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy PC games (too much), but I don't buy them (or play them on sites like vassal, or rally-the-troops) for exactly that reason.
@@ZillaBlitz I think that would be a great video to get lot's of folks involved. I think there are many wargames that work better on-line because they can set up faster (and saved), and details like damage and supplies can be tracked on line, as well as FoW. The benefit/cost coefficient just doesn't work for me, any longer.
@@SoloBattles Same here. I decided to play boardgames to get away from my PC. However, some wargames have incredibly complicated mechanics that a PC would excel in executing. This is why I'm interested in knowing others' experiences. Thanks for sharing.
Great points! :)
I guess the environment impacts choices of platforms:
I enjoy Sniper Elite the Board game and all 5 of the PC versions.
Ultimate Admiral / General make great media driven games.
Some days the choice is quiet with the Hunter series or Maquis.
Board games induce more concentration while PC games induce responses,
Stealth Games on Steam hard to make as board game:
Actual story of SOE female assassin, Violette Summer, during WW 2. I would think Rebellion could make a great updated version of this. How did Ubi-soft miss these?
Velvet Assassin (2008)
ruclips.net/video/Z1NCc4vMTd8/видео.html
and Stolen (2005)
Female thief:
ruclips.net/video/viLYc9xdNTc/видео.html
Regards
Some fun games in there! I've heard good things about Sniper Elite. :)