Support d4a: driving-4-answers-shop.fourthwall.com/ Alos, just a little heads up: this, the video before it and my future videos now have proper English subtitles, not the auto generated stuff.
for me to go through 22 minutes of "complex" engineering without getting bored once is really impressive, this video is on another level of clarity and entertainment, congrats!
Even as a Camaro and crossplane V8 fan, I find the Voodoo's sound very-very unique and appealing, it's indeed as if a crossplane V8 went berserk, but in a good way :). Thank you for these rare high quality and in-depth explanations you provide.
I am a car guy and I know a lot of this information, but the section at 4:55 was incredible and something I've never seen demonstrated before. I will absolutely be checking out that channel, thanks for the recommendation.
@vimal d BHP = (torque x RPM)/5252 is for calculating flywheel outputs, to calculate at the wheels you need to multiply this by the gear ratio and deduct transmission losses. So plugging in a 2.5:1 gear ratio and 15% transmission losses would give you Wheel BHP = (((torque x RPM)/5252) * 2.5) * 0.85) with the 0.85 being the whole 1.0 power minus the 0.15 (15%) lost through the trans mission --> propshaft --> diff --> half shafts --> hubs --> tyre deformation
@vimal d horsepower= torque * RPM / 5252 This is true at the wheels and at the engine. For example if you had a engine that produced 100 lb feet of torque at 5252 RPM then you have 100 horsepower at the engine, now (assuming a frictionless drivetrain) if in third gear your car had a two-to-one gear ratio (your engine turns two times for every one turn of the wheels) you will have twice as much to torque at the wheel but they will turn half as fast so you will end up with torque times RPM divided by 5252 is equal to 200 lb feet * 2626 RPM / 5252 = 100 horsepower at the wheels. Engineering explained has done the best video I have found on this topic, but what really made it click with me was messing around with some Lego motors and gears.
@vimal d I realized that Engineering Explained has done a lot of videos on horsepower and torque so here is the link to the one I am taking about ruclips.net/video/zZBqb0ZJSwU/видео.html Or if you just want to search for it is called "when to shift gears for the fastest acceleration".
actually it has a better firing order that is more even and spreads out the neighbours heat and pressure and crankshaft and camshafts loading and in some ways better for oiling. i know not offices on the first quick look 👀 but looking closely you can see it and other good reasons for the voodoo crank. as for the exitsoste manifolds it's for packaging and assembly/cost cutting and has a ok side effect of a different experience and sound ps. not a fan boy of ford as i drive old mopars ( and would love ❤️ a 4.5-5in stroker crankshaft for my hemi. so credit is due to ford even if my favourite sound it a stocker 6-pack ish 1968-72 444RB cold start with the thin wall aluminised steel pipes ) and chevys
@@nfareview more interesting is how chevy has chosen the dual intake but there will be three valves connecting them, not that this is new but it is interesting, it would be great if he dove into explaining why and how it effects the sounds also, I've seen another recent video from someone briefly explaining how it helps with balance but that's it, not a real dummy explanation as i need and enjoy, this dude does an awesome job
The explanations have become exceptional here, frankly the best I've seen anywhere for a lot of topics. The demonstration of sound for the Voodoo headers was especially great for me. I understood the concept immediately, but actually hearing the difference was still shocking enough to make me smile with the surprise of it all.
I have to say I just turned 34 and realized that I need something to do being as I'm disabled and sit at home most of the time so I've decided to start me a project car and this RUclips channel along with a couple others has helped me get a great start on what I need to do and what I want out of my car.this guy right here is very detailed and I like the way he explains things
Owning the Gt350 felt in the ropes about the hype of changing headers. Your video made me realize how important are the OEM short headers to the intended sound design. So I won’t change a thing.
The worst part about watching your videos is I keep saying things that make people mistake me for someone who knows anything about cars. I generally know nothing much about cars and engines, but man you really explain things so simply I can actually make sensible statements about things like this now. As a Mustang enthusiast, it was especially interesting to learn about the Voodoo motor and why they chose it over the Coyote.
Absolute perfection!! Stunningly researched, amazingly well-scripted and presented and your English is perfect! This is THE definitive video for the comparisons of these engines in my opinion.
Outstanding explanations. I really enjoyed the clear detailed descriptions and demonstrations.. As the owner of a GT350, it's interesting to hear how the flawed approach created not just a great sound but quite an amazing engine. We run this car with three drivers in back to back to back track sessions all day long and it's been flawless. The sound is distinctive from a mile and a half away.
I love engine sound. I roll down the window to hear other people's cars, much to my wife's annoyance. But I drive a utilitarian, pragmatic, and budget friendly car so I must live vicariously through others. I once spent several hours in a convertible Camaro and was very disappointed that the exhaust was muted to the point of sounding like a 6 cylinder. I was told that the target market of the convertible Camaro did not want a loud car... I don't understand those people. The sound is definitely an important part of the experience for me. The sound of the Mustangs has always been among my favourite and agree with your opinion of the GT350. The GT350 is most certainly enjoyable to hear. Great video. Enjoyable, entertaining, and even educational. Until today I had very little undertanding of the differences between cross plane and flat plane crankshafts.
I'm going to definitely agree with you, the sound of the voodoo is the best sounding engine I have ever heard. The Coyote sounds great/mad and the LS sounds big and burly, and the typical flat plane smoothness/scream are wonderful sounds. The Viper's crazy firing angle vs ford's offset pin v10 would be another interesting video if you want to continue this sort of analysis. But the Voodoo just sounds like it is insanely mad and ready to explode (But in a good way). I buy engines I can afford, and whatever car they are attached to is second choice. Voodoo was out of my price range, so I have a Coyote with a Mustang GT connected to it.
it's all personal preference...i still like that old school cross plane sound..just like some people like the sound of an american v-twin and i can't stand them
Ya, I like the voo doo sound too, and the mustang coyote sounds cool. I have a LS6 with a Corvette attached to it.😀 It sounds great but could be louder. It has factory titanium exhaust, so it could last forever! And my wife probably won’t let me make it louder😂
Voodoo is the only V8 engine I've gotten my older brother to like, he HATES the sound of V8s, but the Voodoo sounds so intense, best description I've heard of the sound is that it sounds demonic, like it's possessed.
the gt350 actually sounds like a flat plane and cross plane combined to. the rumble at low rpms and the high screaming sound at high rpms. insane engineering
This summarizes the difference better than what I cobbled together from articles and 5+ other videos about FPC (including your older ones). And I STILL learned new stuff about FPC in this one. Outstanding. Going to share this on the C8 and S550 Mustang groups.
I always thought that the Vodoo engine was nothing but a regular flat plane V8 with uneven headers. I am a little puzzled as to why Ford did not just do that. If you can make a crossplane V8 sound exactly like a Ferrari by using some fancy exhaust than surely there has to be a way to do the opposite, no? Anyway, nice of you to point people towards Moser's channel. That guy's work is criminally under-appreciated.
Perhaps amateur V8 enthusiasts would've seen through that too easily? Even when engineering heavy and fast conglomerations of metal that need to be efficient and safe it seems companies can still take liberties for marketing's sake. I've yet to read an exposé on the supposed technical reasoning behind the manifold/exhaust design on the first 4-cylinder 718 Porsche Cayman.
What a great explanation of the differences in these engines. Made me even happier that I managed to purchase a 2016 GT350 a couple of years ago. And I agree that the sound of that engine is the best V-8 sound (imho anyway). Thanks for a great video.
@@RBZ06LT6 Wasn't all that pointless as the new Corvette will be set up with a flat plane crank as well. Don't knock it until you try it. The Voodoo engine is a classic as is the Shelby GT350. In the 3 years since I bought mine the value has increased by -/$8,000. I'll take more of this typical Ford nonsense anytime.
Secondary forces are so tough to wrap your head around when first learning about them, they just don't quite seem as intuitive as the primary forces. After i watch a few more of your videos i think i'll have it. Lots of great information in here like usual!
Unfortunately for all of the things an engine needs to do aside from sound it's pretty badly compromised. It's still cool but it's not even close to being in the same league as the LT6 or other true flat plane engines. But, I give them credit for sweating the sound.
@@Lanse1984 lol, please show me how they are flat planes. If you look at a v12 or inline 6 crank you ll see that crankpins are found at 3 planes. There isnt a term for them but they would be tri-plane. The crankpins are situated on 3 different planes
I can't believe I watched the whole video I just wanted to know what was so special about the voodoo engine . Needless to say I know now and some! Great video .
I have a GT350 and this was a fantastic video covering all of the info. I thought I knew a lot, apparently I had a ton more to learn. This was superbly well done!
Excellent and one of the most informative videos I've ever watched! By the way, I own a GT350 and I completely agree with you about the sound...AMAZING!!!
I'd have to say that my favorite sounding v8 is the P60B40 by BMW. There's also tricks to play around with cross plane crank sounds like x pipes, 180 degree headers, 8-1 headers. These are basically tricks to "rearrange" the exhaust pulses so that they can facilitate better exhaust scavenging. As a result, it does smooth out the exhaust tone and sounds more even firing and scream-y. I also like the sound of high revving nascar v8s
@@porschelover04 Ive worked on enough of the twin turbo v8's , and the tt v8 with variable lift cam. Believe me say no to bmw v8's. When they are right they run! But they break down alot! Faulty valve seals , coolant transfer pipes, turbo coolant lines, And cam lift followers(stamped steel). Ive had one that locked up due to excessive carbon build up in the combustion chamber. So ill pass!
Superb content here. Wonderful video! I would add: The Voodoo is a nearly square engine. The other flat-plane engine are all oversquare. I attribute to the Voodoo being part of the Modular engine family. As such, inherently hamstrung by bore size limit.
Agreed. Excellent job! I also want to point out that the reason why they didn't choose to go with the two intake plenums is that they didn't have enough space in the engine bay. They lowered the height of the hood of an already tight engine bay so they just didn't have enough space to have two intakes.
So glad you did this video as I was curious on the differences of the vodoo.. I really wish this car was still in production. Here in Canada at least GT350r cars value are gone through the roof, people are making 30 to 40% over msrp. A buddy has one with aftermarket exhaust and its pure sex.
Potato potato? 😂 Never heard that one. I get it when I say it out loud though. Not the next video I expected from you, but phenomenal as always! This is why I love boxer engines though. So simple. 😀 I just want someone to make a flat 8. If nobody is gonna do it, I'll do it myself. 🙃
I can't believe you haven't heard potatox2? Maybe it's really old and pase and I didn't notice 😅 Let's build it together. You, me, a solid block of iron, lots of files and some jb weld. We build massive social hype and then have it explode om on the first start and pretend how we didn't see it coming.
Another great video! The clarity you bring to complex topics is excellent! I do want to point something out at 2 minutes 20 seconds. There may be a bit of confusion when you say that an even firing interval improves balance and smoothness. An even firing interval, by itself, will not improve balance, just the smoothness. To the uninitiated, there may be some confusion that, somehow, mechanical balance is affected by firing interval.
Torque is a function of displacement...stroke and rod/stroke ratio have minimal effects. LS3 can easily be made to rev to 8000 rpm...the pushrods don't hold it back. The LT1 is held back by the GDI system. It should be no surprise that smaller engines can rev higher. The Voodoo crank weighs more than the LS7 crank! So the flat plane is not the reason it revs higher. It's very much about piston speed limitations. You also have accessories that can't run above 7000 rpm, or torque converter automatic transmissions. The Z06 has a DCT, very nice crankshaft, titanium rods, and a fluid harmonic damper. My vote for engine of the year.
Ford Australia used the unequal length headers on some of their performance V8's in the early 70's and got very good results. the sound of that voodoo engine is absolute music to the ears.
Great video! I think it'd be cool to compare the C8 Z06's LT6 engine to the original DOHC LT5 used in the C4 ZR-1. Both have overhead cams and 4 valves per cylinder, but I believe the LT5 doesn't have a flat plane crank, among other things.
You are correct. LT5 is/was cross plane crank. Nevertheless, in the early ‘90’s it was impressive that Chevrolet built and put a DOHC V8 in a Corvette.
@@ghostwrench2292 GM and Lotus both cooperated on the engine. It was put through lots of endurance testing to ensure reliability, so it doesn't need as much service as a Lotus powerplant thankfully. Overall a very cool engine
@@drfaticus Both Lotus and GM cooperated on it, to the point where GM briefly bought Lotus for the project's completion. The engines were then manufactured at Mercury Marine's facilities, then shipped to Bowling Green, Kentucky to be installed in ZR-1 Corvette's. There was also an LT5 in one variation of the Lotus Elise GT1, stroked from 5.7L to 6.0L, twin-turbocharged and given a flat plane crankshaft. Most Elise GT1's ran with the Lotus Esprit's 3.5L twin-turbo V8, however.
I think I said this before. I used to be a car salesman and I went to a technical/commercial car school. I know a lot about cars and technique and on birthdays I'm always the one telling the younger kids about car technique. But your channel taught me such an awful lot.... I'm in awe. Thanks.
The sound of the Voodoo is definitely an acquired taste. When the GT350 first came out, I borderline hated the way it sounded. However, I still bought a GT350R despite the sound. It takes a while, but the sound does grow on you. I still won't say I love the way it sounds, but I do love revving it out to redline. I'm actually disappointed that Ford caved to the knuckle draggers and didn't make it sound like a traditional flat plane V8. That would've been badass. That aside, the Voodoo just sounds mad as hell ALL the time. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
Yes, I agree with what you are saying, tayl0rd. The LT6 certainly does belong in the new Vette and I'm now even happier with the Voodoo sound as well. I'm glad the GT350 doesn't sound Euro-exotic, it just sounds different...mad as hell, like you said.
@Peter Angles Maybe he didn't feel like racing a 4-banger was worth wasting the gas. If you stick to trying to race the Ecoboost and old V6 Mustangs, you might have a better chance of them racing you.
The explanation in this video is the best of all the videos I have seen on this channel so far. Previous videos sometimes simplify a bit too much and use inaccurate terminologies (such as "inertial force" which doesn't exist, yes I'm a nerd), but this is much better. Thank you for your good work!
Honestly, I really enjoyed the video. I knew that the firing order was different between the Ferrari V8s and American V8s. But didn't know the why. And the way you described the sound of the Voodoo engine. It sounds like a cross plain that lost it's mind. That was pure genius! And I will laugh about that for s long time to come
Dude your channel is amazing. Literally can't stop watching. Even when it's areas I'm familiar with you explain everything so eloquently that it's a pleasure to go back to stuff I've looked into and learn more about it. Thanks!
My man, you are the Brian Greene of automotive engineering. You give the clearest explanations for non-engineers. You really should write some books if you haven’t already. There’s no shortage of car nuts who would love to have a better understanding in an accessible way of how things work.
At 64 years of age and a major car nut since a very early age I learned or more importantly understood more about things that matter to me than I ever did in four years of university. Thanks so much...this was truly brilliant!
Man, that ford voodo engine sounds amazing. Speaking of rumble.... I'd love to hear what a boxer engine with a crossplane crank would sound like. Unless i'm missing something, unlike an I4, an H4 with a crossplane would still be balanced, and might be able to get that rumble out while still using equal length headers, since it will now have un equal firing intervals.
I'm definitely no expert on this topic but I believe this would result with the 2 Pistons at top dead center or bottom dead center while the other two would be in the middle opposed. The issue would then be additional rocking forces. Because the two in middle of stroke would be imposing less 2ndary forces to those at the either tdc or bdc and therefore creating a little rocking force on the crank. It is an interesting thought experiment and I wish I could try it in practice with old parts.
@@johndorn9752 Imagine an H2 engine. It's perfectly balanced as long as the crankpins are 180 degrees from each other. (aside from a very small rocking couple due to the pistons being offset by an inch or so.) So put two H2's together where the first pair are at 0 and 180 degrees and the second pair are at 90 and 270 degrees. I'm also not an expert, but I don't see how this wouldn't be just as balanced as your flatplane crank H4
Everyone who has watched whole 22 minutes this video should get Certificate of V8 Engine Expert. This is So much knowledge here man. I Appreciate that hard work
Having owned two Ford GT 350‘s, and now driving the current Chevrolet 2021C8 Corvette, you my friend have got your facts perfectly in line with the reality. My order for the new C8 flat plane crank is only confirmed after your brilliant deep dive into statistics and the mechanics of these engineered marvels. Thank you for your time.
My 1st car was bought new by my grandmother in 1964. It was the 1st Mustang Ford produced. It was a fantastic 1st car for me back in the early 70’s. Man I miss that car. My Dad sold it to a buddy of my uncle who restored Mustangs as a hobby, so I know it went to a great home. 👍🏻
Lot of manufacturers have done that with flat planes. first time ferrari did it was with f355 in 1994. increased mass increases secondary forces thats why they are doing everything they can to lighten the rotating assembly
as my above comment stated, it’s actually a common practice, but I believe this is potentially the first time we’ll be getting those rods in a car less than $100k (I say potentially, we don’t know the price of the C8 Z06 just yet)
FINALLY! A VIDEO EXPLAINING THIS! I always try to explain to people why the GT350 flag plane crank isn’t even a GOOD flat plane crank, but they just get so hung up on “flat plane crank” that they can’t see the massive downfalls of the Ford variant
I on the other hand have massive respect for Ford for doing something new, weird and out of the box. We already have Ferraris, BMW's and Audi's super cars. They are engineering marvels, perfection, but also nothing new and kinda bland at this point. Car manufacturers should take more risks, make something new and fun that breaks the molds just for the sake of it instead of aiming for yet-another-perfect but ultimately characterless machine. Have more artists and visionaries than text book engineers. Be outrageous like Lamborghinis of old before they became Ferrari 2.0. Sure not every car will be a hit but at least there would be a lot more memorable ones.
@@MaaZeus the issue was it wasn’t about “being weird” or “adding character”, it was because Ford was being cheap and didn’t want to restructure the front end to account for the dual plane intake manifold that would be needed for a traditional flat plane firing order
The redline of an engine is MUCH more dependent on the valvetrain than it is on the weight of the crankshaft. If you increase valvetrain rigidity, cross-plane, pushrod engines can easily rev in excess of 10,000 RPM - and be very snappy and responsive.
My understanding on secondary imbalance is that is caused by the fact that when the crankshaft turns, the piston moving downward from top dead center actually moves a greater distance than the piston moving upward from bottom dead center. Draw this out and you will see how this works; Move the crankshaft 30 degrees from TDC and measure how far down the bore the piston top is, and then do the same from BDC; The downward moving piston covers more distance and as such there is more upward push on the crankshaft from the descending than downward push from the rising piston. The C8 ZO6 engine prototype initially ran so rough that parts were literally falling off.... Great video!
Yes that is one way to explain it, especially in the inline four. I did that explanation before as well if you check my older engine balance videos. But I eventually switched over onto this explanation as I found it more straightforward and it eliminates the variables of rod ratio and such.
Yes that is one way to explain it, especially in the inline four. I did that explanation before as well if you check my older engine balance videos. But I eventually switched over onto this explanation as I found it more straightforward and it eliminates the variables of rod ratio and such.
Very cool, i remember suggesting this one last year in one of your iconic engines videos. Didn't know it had those funky headers or that up down crank shaft. All i knew was the great power per liter and awesome sound. Thanks for the knowledge
The discussion surrounding the relative benefits of either cross-plane or flat-plane cranks and RPM performance is pretty much secondary to the benefits of tremendously more rigid valve trains and multiple valves per cylinder/breathing capability. The earliest V8's were limited to flat-plane designs because they were far simpler to build and lower cost. Don't forget that the V8's at the highest levels of specific output (with commensurately high RPM's) are cross-plane (things like nitro burning Chrysler Hemi's etc). Yes they don't last forever while producing 13,000 HP but if there was some major benefit to using flat-plane cranks in these engines they would have done it decades ago. Ford didn't want to have their car sound like a Ferrari? I'll take the sound of a Ferrari over a Mustang any day! At least the C8 Z06 comes very close in this regard. EDIT: Also needs to be noted that in many of the highest performance aftermarket applications, flat plane cranks as found in Honda's and many others, use fully counterweighted designs and run them at crazy high RPM. The rotational inertia of the crank is dominated by the flywheel which has a much higher radius of gyration (far more mass farther away from the axis of rotation). If you need better throttle response more is to be gained from reducing mass at the flywheel than by the removal of counterweights which are super close to the axis of rotation. In short, cranks are definitely not the biggest determination of an engines RPM or specific output potential despite all the market hype coming from manufacturers.
I absolutely loved my gt350. Hands down the best sound to ever come from a show room car under 100k…… $43k under 100k. For less than $60k you had amazing sound that went through track tires every weekend, issue free.
ohhhhh myyyyyy goshhhhhhhhhhhh, I LOVE this video...........particularly the opinion stated from 21:16 to the end....................my eyes are watering I'm laughing so hard...Thank you for a great explanation of these designs!
Ford also lost tons of money in grenading Voodoo engines. Hence why it was discontinued even as demand for it was very high. Its honestly a frankenstein engine.
I’m a Ford dealer technician at a large shop. The only voodoo engine I’ve seen blown up was because the owner missed 3rd gear and got 1st when downshifting on the track. AKA money shift. Carnage was impressive. 🙂
Truly great video! You answered a burning question about the Voodoo engine. Thanks a ton for that. I have a question and maybe a request. Could you address the V-10 engines that Chrysler and Ford made? I believe these were V-8s with the blocks extended to add two more cylinders. But what did they do to the crankshaft? Do they have split-pins to replicate a 72 degree firing order? I can't seem to find a photo or an article that addresses this. These V-10s have been around for years and I still don't know how they did it.
The Ford V10's have crankpins split forward by 18° so that each pair of cylinders fires 72° apart. The same is true for the older 5.0 Lambo V10, which is why you can make a Gallardo sound like F1. Even fire V10 pros: Even firing, less torsional vibration (instantaneous torque goes between 1.58 and 0.36 times the mean torque), smoother, lighter flywheels can be used. Even fire V10 cons: Perfect primary balance requires a boxer configuration or 108° V angle with +36° split crankpins. 90° and 72° angles have a significant primary rocking moment. Split-pin crank not as strong or stiff as common-pin crank. The Dodge Viper, BMW S85, and 5.2 Lambo engines have non-split crankpins and thus fire unevenly (with firing intervals alternating between 90° and 54°). This is why the Huracán sounds like a 5 cylinder and can't sound like F1. Odd fire (90°) V10 pros: Perfect primary balance with only crank weights needed (no balance shaft), stiffer crankshaft. Odd fire V10 cons: More torsional vibration (instantaneous torque goes from 1.91 times to 0.012 times the mean torque, and you have more high-order harmonics, with the 7.5 and 12.5 orders being the worst offenders in this engine), rougher running, heavier flywheel required.
So the C8 Z06 has become the darling of my engineering eye, and hearing the difference in the different v8 engines brought this maniacal smile to my face.
Great job, great engine and car. Even from the 60s with the factory tuned exhaust manifolds, the mustang has always owned a distinctive sound that is borderline hit music. Good job Ford
the 350 sound has that x factor that no other engine has, i wonder what it would sound like if it was smaller like say a 4.0, would it sound and feel like compared to the audi RS4 and E90/92 M3 ...
Damn. What a video. I thought I was knowledgeable about engines, but this was informative, and the graphics were perfect, and I learnt a shitload. Wish I had more thumbs up to give this video.
Always thought the GT350 sounded like a kaiju, like it could’ve done voice over for pacific time or something. Now I now why, it’s because it’s just weird. Lol
Very informative and well presented. I've tried to explain to people why one engine sounds better than another. Most people think it the exhaust system. I've always known the firing order has all to do with it. Especially when its alternating from one bank to the other bank, rather than one cylinder firing and another in succession on the same bank. Glad I found your channel. Going to watch more right now! Keep sharing your great knowledge. It always amazes me to hear real engineering explained. I knew there was more than meets the eye with crankshaft design and firing sequence. Then you bring out the rocking and primary/secondary forces and it is amazing that all these things are figured into the design of just the crankshaft! Like piston pin location slighly off from center line. One time an engineer commented on reasons we have different tranny fluids (Mercon, Dextron etc) It floored me with how much technology goes into the fluids, the chemistry and how some react to various gasket materials and especially O-ring materials like Viton seals. Amazing stuff 👍👍👍🇺🇸
Ford in the US: “We want Mustangs to sound like mustangs so we wont put a regular flatplane V8 into it. Also ford in Europe: *puts a 2.3 4cyl ecoboost into the Mustang Makes sense..
i bet there are more 4 banger stangers sold in america than in europe. i believe over 80% of the mustangs sold in europe are gt ones. we buy mustang for the v8 because if we want a boosted 4 cyl there's the focus.
I dont know about the US but in Hungary I see like 1/3 ecoboost and 2/3 gt mustangs. I just cant ever understand ppl buying i4 mustangs.. like you said. Buy a focus then 😅
@@d4a Dont forget a wird but genius suspension from the citroen 2CV6 and DS. Not related but you should look at Puch Pinzgauer drivetrain as well it is completely different as others are.
A heavy crankshaft certainly adds to the flywheel effect, making an unladen engine gain and lose RPM more slowly. But how could it limit operating RPM?
Because it vibrates and flexes more due to its own weight, also puts more stresses on the bearings. Of course you can't rev it high despite that, just lot less reliably
Most red lines are soft red lines today determined by when the power rolls over. As such a flat plane because of the exhaust scavenging will make peak power slightly higher delaying rollover by a few hundred rpm everything else being equal.
Correction at 17:35, the Mustang Buyer does not have enough belt buckle. 😂 Absolutely awesome video bro. 👍 I test drove a 2016 Mustang GT350 and it was fast as shit and very stable, but the engine kind of felt like two S2000 engines bolted together. It lacked low end torque but absolutely screamed at the top end. I suppose it's the way the cams are set up. The other thing that struck me about that car was how normal it was when not driving balls-to-the-wall. Like you could actually live with one as a daily driver. The one we checked out at CarMax (a used car retail chain) had definitely been someone's track car, the front splitter was torn up and there was gravel on top of the engine tray, side skirts, and in the exhaust. I guess the previous owner decided he'd slid off track one to many times and dumped the thing. 😂
Ford used this layout because it gave the best breathing characteristics with their weird 4-3-1 headers. And they had to use 4-3-1 headers because 4-2-1 or 4-1 did not fit in the mustang engine bay with the cats they wanted to use.
@@AugustoRallo no lol he's not correct at all, they compromised their engine for sound, the headers they use take up MORE space than the correct 4:2:1 headers a flat plan should have (with the correct crank) as evidence by the fact you can purchase aftermarket headers in that configuration that fit
On flat plane V8s, inline 4s, secondary imbalances, redlines, and displacement: The C8 Z06 has a 5.5L flat plane V8 that redlines at 8600rpm. As was mentioned in the video, a V8 can be thought of as two i4s meeting at the crank. So if we look at the per cylinder bank of the C8 Z06, what we would have is a 2.75L i4 with an 8600 rpm redline. Consider this for a moment. High revving i4s that large are exceedingly rare, and you won't find them in a production vehicle. The reason is those secondary vibrations. So why can the Z06 do this when a normal 4 cylinder generally can not? The answer is this: Each cylinder bank partially cancels the vibrations of the other bank. Because the two cylinder banks are not parallel, the vibrations partially oppose each other. This means the total magnitude of those secondary vibrations of that 5.5L V8 would only be ~70% higher than the vibrations of a correspondingly similar 2.75L i4, in spite of having 100% increased displacement. Hence flat-plane V8s can gain a little bit of per-cylinder displacement, relative to an inline 4. As the V angle gets wider, this partial cancelation increases until you have a 180 degree V, which at that point what you have is a boxer-8, which is perfectly balanced.
This channel is so underrated...I am just consuming it all 🤪 I will listen to everything...such a good explanation about engine details...more of everything 😎 I am the new subscriber from now on...also the engine lover, everything from V8 to diesel...to two strokes amd Wankels...transmissions and forced inductions...everything 💪
This question is coming from the place of ignorance but honest curiosity, Why is it not possible to fire in sequence from 1st to 2nd to 3rd to 4th to 5th to 6th to 7th to 8th? Like this: 1 -- 2 3 -- 4 5 -- 6 7 -- 8 Kind of like a caterpillar or centipede using its front legs first and then progressively moving further back to the rear legs to propel itself forward.
That would require a very complex crankshaft assembly - think 2 crossplane crankshafts offset from each other. It would be very heavy, and the counterweight necessary to counteract the imbalances would make it generally incapable of producing any real power.
It's possible as far as I know, but I think the primary reason to avoid it is to reduce undesirable forces on the crankshaft. Putting all the force on one crank pin twice in a row repeatedly for every section of the crankshaft would cause a lot of twisting force that could shorten the life of the crank and create extra wear on the supporting bearings. That's my guess.
You can imagine combustion events as a "hit" on the engine...and you can imagine the engine as a boat. Your goal is to keep hitting the boat without sinking it. This is is why you want to even out the distribution of your hits from the outside in and then from the outside out. Every combustion event essentially tries to unbalance the engine or "tip the boat" so you hit it on the other end to prevent it from tipping over. Hitting it repeatedly in the same spot will obviously sink it very fast. Excuse the slightly stupid analogy :)
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Alos, just a little heads up: this, the video before it and my future videos now have proper English subtitles, not the auto generated stuff.
Hey brother, you doing alright? Staying above water? Need any help?
hi , im australian and i understand , good accent
Your English is quite good. I don't need subtitles.
Your English is fine.
Your English is good, but English of some of your viewers may be not so good, so thanks for the subs!
for me to go through 22 minutes of "complex" engineering without getting bored once is really impressive, this video is on another level of clarity and entertainment, congrats!
Its the pictures.
@@turboflush hahahaha
@@AlainSDL legault... Hahaaa
Video is crystal ! 😎
@@turboflush it would be great if my professors were equipped with slides made with the same care as the images in this video xD hahahaha
Legitimately my favorite car tech show on RUclips
Because he knows his STUFF and he's cool
Yeah, he's even better than Engineering Explained. I enjoy both channels.
Same... It's the best car show on RUclips
I agree that he's better than engineering explained, he's very easy to follow
Even as a Camaro and crossplane V8 fan, I find the Voodoo's sound very-very unique and appealing, it's indeed as if a crossplane V8 went berserk, but in a good way :). Thank you for these rare high quality and in-depth explanations you provide.
It sounds awful IMO, like a cry for help
@@firstNamelastName-ho6lvyou must like the sound of v6’s and I4’s. Peasant
Except for the whole "reliability" thing. All these GT3500 investors trying to upkeep the GT350 stock are comedians. 🤡
@@firstNamelastName-ho6lv Or like a Detroit Diesel two-cycle 8V-71 in a highway bus (think the MCI MC-9 or the A3 line).
I tried to mimic the piston motion with my energy drink, and it exploded when I opened it. Horsepower!
I have a dirty mind, but something would explode in my example too
@@rarelycold6618 your timing is too advanced :(
@@ivanbrasla nah, it took a while
Did you shotgun it for maximum intake velocity? And chug a glass of milk after for maximum ‘exhaust pulse velocity’?
NO.
I am a car guy and I know a lot of this information, but the section at 4:55 was incredible and something I've never seen demonstrated before. I will absolutely be checking out that channel, thanks for the recommendation.
@vimal d BHP = (torque x RPM)/5252 is for calculating flywheel outputs, to calculate at the wheels you need to multiply this by the gear ratio and deduct transmission losses. So plugging in a 2.5:1 gear ratio and 15% transmission losses would give you Wheel BHP = (((torque x RPM)/5252) * 2.5) * 0.85) with the 0.85 being the whole 1.0 power minus the 0.15 (15%) lost through the trans mission --> propshaft --> diff --> half shafts --> hubs --> tyre deformation
I watched some of your videos and now i see you here, indeed a nice surpise :))
@vimal d
horsepower= torque * RPM / 5252
This is true at the wheels and at the engine.
For example if you had a engine that produced 100 lb feet of torque at 5252 RPM then you have 100 horsepower at the engine, now (assuming a frictionless drivetrain) if in third gear your car had a two-to-one gear ratio (your engine turns two times for every one turn of the wheels) you will have twice as much to torque at the wheel but they will turn half as fast so you will end up with torque times RPM divided by 5252 is equal to
200 lb feet * 2626 RPM / 5252 = 100 horsepower at the wheels.
Engineering explained has done the best video I have found on this topic, but what really made it click with me was messing around with some Lego motors and gears.
@vimal d I realized that Engineering Explained has done a lot of videos on horsepower and torque so here is the link to the one I am taking about ruclips.net/video/zZBqb0ZJSwU/видео.html
Or if you just want to search for it is called "when to shift gears for the fastest acceleration".
Yeah that was pretty cool
Where were you when I was falling asleep during mechanical engineering lectures? Your clarity and succinctness are second to none.
x2
The Voodoo sounds so amazing, I’m glad they sacrificed a little bit of efficiency and engineering common sense to make it happen
actually it has a better firing order that is more even and spreads out the neighbours heat and pressure and crankshaft and camshafts loading and in some ways better for oiling. i know not offices on the first quick look 👀 but looking closely you can see it and other good reasons for the voodoo crank. as for the exitsoste manifolds it's for packaging and assembly/cost cutting and has a ok side effect of a different experience and sound
ps. not a fan boy of ford as i drive old mopars ( and would love ❤️ a 4.5-5in stroker crankshaft for my hemi. so credit is due to ford even if my favourite sound it a stocker 6-pack ish 1968-72 444RB cold start with the thin wall aluminised steel pipes ) and chevys
Z06.
@@gaddyify no old 60's big block Chevys for me 😁 not frarrie sounds as it sounds like a bee 🐝and i can't stand the way it feels and sounds
@@richardprice5978 Are you talking about the LT6 in the new C8 Z06? The most powerful NA V8 in automotive history?
@@gaddyify nope not for the sound
Amazing video! Yup, people always forget how the dual intake plenums and TB's add to the Ferrarieske sound characteristics of an FPC.
Nice try, it would be "Ferrari-esque" as a proper spelling.
@@derekwalker4622 👍 How many have you owned? Gonna be a dick? I’ll be one right back lol
@@nfareview more interesting is how chevy has chosen the dual intake but there will be three valves connecting them, not that this is new but it is interesting, it would be great if he dove into explaining why and how it effects the sounds also, I've seen another recent video from someone briefly explaining how it helps with balance but that's it, not a real dummy explanation as i need and enjoy, this dude does an awesome job
@@taylorpratt6287 Ferrari did the same thing with the F136 engine in the 458 Italia. :)
@@derekwalker4622 His spelling is correct for Ferrari's exported to Russia.
Phenomenal video. Personally I think the cross plane pushrod V8s are the best sounding engines. I also like how simple and Compact they are.
particularly in large displacements too. Nothing idles better, your ears can hear the torque it has even at idle
Compact? For that, I like the Ford V8 Flat Head not to be confused with the Flat Plane. ;)
I agree.
You think do, cause they are the best sounding engines. Flatplane is not even close.
The explanations have become exceptional here, frankly the best I've seen anywhere for a lot of topics. The demonstration of sound for the Voodoo headers was especially great for me. I understood the concept immediately, but actually hearing the difference was still shocking enough to make me smile with the surprise of it all.
I have to say I just turned 34 and realized that I need something to do being as I'm disabled and sit at home most of the time so I've decided to start me a project car and this RUclips channel along with a couple others has helped me get a great start on what I need to do and what I want out of my car.this guy right here is very detailed and I like the way he explains things
If you have the energy and able body required for a project car then you're able to work. So you're either lying or a lazy bum
How's your project car going? I would also suggest getting into model engineering if you can afford a small lathe and mill set-up
Owning the Gt350 felt in the ropes about the hype of changing headers. Your video made me realize how important are the OEM short headers to the intended sound design. So I won’t change a thing.
It can be a bummer when aftermarket is a letdown in an area that has a certain appeal outside of performance.
The worst part about watching your videos is I keep saying things that make people mistake me for someone who knows anything about cars. I generally know nothing much about cars and engines, but man you really explain things so simply I can actually make sensible statements about things like this now.
As a Mustang enthusiast, it was especially interesting to learn about the Voodoo motor and why they chose it over the Coyote.
Absolute perfection!! Stunningly researched, amazingly well-scripted and presented and your English is perfect! This is THE definitive video for the comparisons of these engines in my opinion.
Outstanding explanations. I really enjoyed the clear detailed descriptions and demonstrations.. As the owner of a GT350, it's interesting to hear how the flawed approach created not just a great sound but quite an amazing engine. We run this car with three drivers in back to back to back track sessions all day long and it's been flawless. The sound is distinctive from a mile and a half away.
And a very unreliable engine. Thank you for beta testing the engine for all G3 Coyotes and Predator owners.
I love engine sound. I roll down the window to hear other people's cars, much to my wife's annoyance. But I drive a utilitarian, pragmatic, and budget friendly car so I must live vicariously through others.
I once spent several hours in a convertible Camaro and was very disappointed that the exhaust was muted to the point of sounding like a 6 cylinder. I was told that the target market of the convertible Camaro did not want a loud car... I don't understand those people. The sound is definitely an important part of the experience for me.
The sound of the Mustangs has always been among my favourite and agree with your opinion of the GT350. The GT350 is most certainly enjoyable to hear.
Great video. Enjoyable, entertaining, and even educational. Until today I had very little undertanding of the differences between cross plane and flat plane crankshafts.
I'm going to definitely agree with you, the sound of the voodoo is the best sounding engine I have ever heard. The Coyote sounds great/mad and the LS sounds big and burly, and the typical flat plane smoothness/scream are wonderful sounds. The Viper's crazy firing angle vs ford's offset pin v10 would be another interesting video if you want to continue this sort of analysis. But the Voodoo just sounds like it is insanely mad and ready to explode (But in a good way). I buy engines I can afford, and whatever car they are attached to is second choice. Voodoo was out of my price range, so I have a Coyote with a Mustang GT connected to it.
it's all personal preference...i still like that old school cross plane sound..just like some people like the sound of an american v-twin and i can't stand them
Ya, I like the voo doo sound too, and the mustang coyote sounds cool. I have a LS6 with a Corvette attached to it.😀 It sounds great but could be louder. It has factory titanium exhaust, so it could last forever! And my wife probably won’t let me make it louder😂
Voodoo is the only V8 engine I've gotten my older brother to like, he HATES the sound of V8s, but the Voodoo sounds so intense, best description I've heard of the sound is that it sounds demonic, like it's possessed.
the gt350 actually sounds like a flat plane and cross plane combined to. the rumble at low rpms and the high screaming sound at high rpms. insane engineering
This summarizes the difference better than what I cobbled together from articles and 5+ other videos about FPC (including your older ones). And I STILL learned new stuff about FPC in this one. Outstanding. Going to share this on the C8 and S550 Mustang groups.
This channel is an educational gold mine, the GT350R is my dream car.
GT350R is definitely in my top 10 of all time. I love that voodoo engine!
I always thought that the Vodoo engine was nothing but a regular flat plane V8 with uneven headers. I am a little puzzled as to why Ford did not just do that. If you can make a crossplane V8 sound exactly like a Ferrari by using some fancy exhaust than surely there has to be a way to do the opposite, no?
Anyway, nice of you to point people towards Moser's channel. That guy's work is criminally under-appreciated.
Perhaps amateur V8 enthusiasts would've seen through that too easily? Even when engineering heavy and fast conglomerations of metal that need to be efficient and safe it seems companies can still take liberties for marketing's sake. I've yet to read an exposé on the supposed technical reasoning behind the manifold/exhaust design on the first 4-cylinder 718 Porsche Cayman.
This was an outstandingly well produced and extremely informative yet entertaining video, thank you very much for making it.👍
What a great explanation of the differences in these engines. Made me even happier that I managed to purchase a 2016 GT350 a couple of years ago. And I agree that the sound of that engine is the best V-8 sound (imho anyway). Thanks for a great video.
He literally said it was the worst design and that it was pointless. Typical Ford nonsense again.
@@RBZ06LT6 Wasn't all that pointless as the new Corvette will be set up with a flat plane crank as well. Don't knock it until you try it. The Voodoo engine is a classic as is the Shelby GT350. In the 3 years since I bought mine the value has increased by -/$8,000. I'll take more of this typical Ford nonsense anytime.
How have I not seen this channel before? Such a clear, easy to follow explanation of the three engines while avoiding going down some rabbit holes.
Secondary forces are so tough to wrap your head around when first learning about them, they just don't quite seem as intuitive as the primary forces. After i watch a few more of your videos i think i'll have it. Lots of great information in here like usual!
Flatplane crankshaft is all for me. Also, props for the clear explanation, never watched a better one. U just earned a subscriber.
The voodoo is a really great engine and sounds amazing.
Best sounding flat-plane
Yeah no not even close. You do know flat 12 and v12 engines are flat planes right? Lol
Unfortunately for all of the things an engine needs to do aside from sound it's pretty badly compromised. It's still cool but it's not even close to being in the same league as the LT6 or other true flat plane engines. But, I give them credit for sweating the sound.
@@Lanse1984 lol, please show me how they are flat planes. If you look at a v12 or inline 6 crank you ll see that crankpins are found at 3 planes. There isnt a term for them but they would be tri-plane. The crankpins are situated on 3 different planes
@@Lanse1984 forgive me, I left out v8 because this video was about v8s
I can't believe I watched the whole video I just wanted to know what was so special about the voodoo engine . Needless to say I know now and some! Great video .
Stellar content and crystal-clear explanations as always, thank you very much, and especially for the better English subs
Hard to keep up but very informative. I like it...
I have a GT350 and this was a fantastic video covering all of the info. I thought I knew a lot, apparently I had a ton more to learn. This was superbly well done!
It shows crossplane on the front?
Studying for my ASE certification, thank you for uploading this level of content for free. 🙏 Favorite teacher on RUclips
I like your balance videos a lot! Can you overview more exotic engine layouts like V12, V16 or opposing pistons engines, please!
Best content on a channel I’ve ever come across, been here from the start. Great work!
God I love the way the GT350 sounds. Very happy I get to hear it everyday when I start her up!
Excellent and one of the most informative videos I've ever watched! By the way, I own a GT350 and I completely agree with you about the sound...AMAZING!!!
Nice! I have a 99 Cobra that sounds amazing, but the Voodoo is possibly the greatest sounding V8 of all time, along with the Jag F type.
I'd have to say that my favorite sounding v8 is the P60B40 by BMW.
There's also tricks to play around with cross plane crank sounds like x pipes, 180 degree headers, 8-1 headers. These are basically tricks to "rearrange" the exhaust pulses so that they can facilitate better exhaust scavenging. As a result, it does smooth out the exhaust tone and sounds more even firing and scream-y. I also like the sound of high revving nascar v8s
Ah yeah gotta love the bundle of snake headers. They look so good as well
For me the v8 in F355 sounds best.
Bmw 8's are junk!
@@CaptainDayne generally, you'd be right. But look up the P60; it's a pure racing motor (and the S65, for that matter)
@@porschelover04 Ive worked on enough of the twin turbo v8's , and the tt v8 with variable lift cam. Believe me say no to bmw v8's. When they are right they run! But they break down alot! Faulty valve seals , coolant transfer pipes, turbo coolant lines,
And cam lift followers(stamped steel). Ive had one that locked up due to excessive carbon build up in the combustion chamber.
So ill pass!
Superb content here. Wonderful video!
I would add: The Voodoo is a nearly square engine. The other flat-plane engine are all oversquare. I attribute to the Voodoo being part of the Modular engine family. As such,
inherently hamstrung by bore size limit.
Agreed. Excellent job! I also want to point out that the reason why they didn't choose to go with the two intake plenums is that they didn't have enough space in the engine bay. They lowered the height of the hood of an already tight engine bay so they just didn't have enough space to have two intakes.
Gee doesn't Subaru have a square shaped engine?
@@lowlifeangler the FA20 is square, yes
Kooks headers on voodoo sound the best!
Put some itb's on that voodoo and it would be perfection!
So glad you did this video as I was curious on the differences of the vodoo.. I really wish this car was still in production. Here in Canada at least GT350r cars value are gone through the roof, people are making 30 to 40% over msrp. A buddy has one with aftermarket exhaust and its pure sex.
Potato potato? 😂 Never heard that one. I get it when I say it out loud though. Not the next video I expected from you, but phenomenal as always! This is why I love boxer engines though. So simple. 😀 I just want someone to make a flat 8. If nobody is gonna do it, I'll do it myself. 🙃
Of course there ar flat 8 but nowhere tu put them anymore.
They don't fit
I can't believe you haven't heard potatox2? Maybe it's really old and pase and I didn't notice 😅 Let's build it together. You, me, a solid block of iron, lots of files and some jb weld. We build massive social hype and then have it explode om on the first start and pretend how we didn't see it coming.
@@d4a tomato tomato is more common i think thats what he meant
@@d4a And the audience pretending they weren't wanting the explosion.
@@d4a I guess you meant cross V8's with more aggressive cam design cuz' they really are potatoes.
Another great video! The clarity you bring to complex topics is excellent! I do want to point something out at 2 minutes 20 seconds. There may be a bit of confusion when you say that an even firing interval improves balance and smoothness. An even firing interval, by itself, will not improve balance, just the smoothness. To the uninitiated, there may be some confusion that, somehow, mechanical balance is affected by firing interval.
WOW, AS A VIDEO EDITOR FOR 40 YEARS, THIS IS THE BEST TUTORIAL ON ANY SUBJ I'VE EVER SEEN. GREAT JOB!
Torque is a function of displacement...stroke and rod/stroke ratio have minimal effects. LS3 can easily be made to rev to 8000 rpm...the pushrods don't hold it back. The LT1 is held back by the GDI system. It should be no surprise that smaller engines can rev higher. The Voodoo crank weighs more than the LS7 crank! So the flat plane is not the reason it revs higher. It's very much about piston speed limitations. You also have accessories that can't run above 7000 rpm, or torque converter automatic transmissions. The Z06 has a DCT, very nice crankshaft, titanium rods, and a fluid harmonic damper. My vote for engine of the year.
Ford Australia used the unequal length headers on some of their performance V8's in the early 70's and got very good results. the sound of that voodoo engine is absolute music to the ears.
Wow🤩
Great video! I think it'd be cool to compare the C8 Z06's LT6 engine to the original DOHC LT5 used in the C4 ZR-1. Both have overhead cams and 4 valves per cylinder, but I believe the LT5 doesn't have a flat plane crank, among other things.
You are correct. LT5 is/was cross plane crank. Nevertheless, in the early ‘90’s it was impressive that Chevrolet built and put a DOHC V8 in a Corvette.
@@ghostwrench2292 gm did not make that engine,it came from lotus.
@@ghostwrench2292 GM and Lotus both cooperated on the engine. It was put through lots of endurance testing to ensure reliability, so it doesn't need as much service as a Lotus powerplant thankfully. Overall a very cool engine
@@drfaticus Both Lotus and GM cooperated on it, to the point where GM briefly bought Lotus for the project's completion. The engines were then manufactured at Mercury Marine's facilities, then shipped to Bowling Green, Kentucky to be installed in ZR-1 Corvette's. There was also an LT5 in one variation of the Lotus Elise GT1, stroked from 5.7L to 6.0L, twin-turbocharged and given a flat plane crankshaft. Most Elise GT1's ran with the Lotus Esprit's 3.5L twin-turbo V8, however.
@@gmoroder ok thats what you think,which is fine.My thought is gm did not come up with that at that time it was lotus like i said earlier.
I think I said this before. I used to be a car salesman and I went to a technical/commercial car school. I know a lot about cars and technique and on birthdays I'm always the one telling the younger kids about car technique. But your channel taught me such an awful lot.... I'm in awe. Thanks.
The sound of the Voodoo is definitely an acquired taste. When the GT350 first came out, I borderline hated the way it sounded. However, I still bought a GT350R despite the sound. It takes a while, but the sound does grow on you. I still won't say I love the way it sounds, but I do love revving it out to redline. I'm actually disappointed that Ford caved to the knuckle draggers and didn't make it sound like a traditional flat plane V8. That would've been badass. That aside, the Voodoo just sounds mad as hell ALL the time. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
I fell in love with the GT350 before it even came out...one of Americas best hands down.
Yes, I agree with what you are saying, tayl0rd. The LT6 certainly does belong in the new Vette and I'm now even happier with the Voodoo sound as well. I'm glad the GT350 doesn't sound Euro-exotic, it just sounds different...mad as hell, like you said.
Im.glad they made it different. Totally unique
@Peter Angles Maybe he didn't feel like racing a 4-banger was worth wasting the gas. If you stick to trying to race the Ecoboost and old V6 Mustangs, you might have a better chance of them racing you.
@Peter Angles Not everyone's looking to race on the street...save it for the track
The explanation in this video is the best of all the videos I have seen on this channel so far. Previous videos sometimes simplify a bit too much and use inaccurate terminologies (such as "inertial force" which doesn't exist, yes I'm a nerd), but this is much better. Thank you for your good work!
Honestly, I really enjoyed the video. I knew that the firing order was different between the Ferrari V8s and American V8s. But didn't know the why. And the way you described the sound of the Voodoo engine. It sounds like a cross plain that lost it's mind. That was pure genius! And I will laugh about that for s long time to come
22:09 Yes, I enjoyed the hell of every second!
Dude your channel is amazing.
Literally can't stop watching. Even when it's areas I'm familiar with you explain everything so eloquently that it's a pleasure to go back to stuff I've looked into and learn more about it.
Thanks!
4:54 oh god, that's great! I am immensely grateful for this already, and there is still so much information ahead!
My man, you are the Brian Greene of automotive engineering. You give the clearest explanations for non-engineers. You really should write some books if you haven’t already. There’s no shortage of car nuts who would love to have a better understanding in an accessible way of how things work.
At 64 years of age and a major car nut since a very early age I learned or more importantly understood more about things that matter to me than I ever did in four years of university. Thanks so much...this was truly brilliant!
Man, that ford voodo engine sounds amazing.
Speaking of rumble.... I'd love to hear what a boxer engine with a crossplane crank would sound like. Unless i'm missing something, unlike an I4, an H4 with a crossplane would still be balanced, and might be able to get that rumble out while still using equal length headers, since it will now have un equal firing intervals.
I'm definitely no expert on this topic but I believe this would result with the 2 Pistons at top dead center or bottom dead center while the other two would be in the middle opposed. The issue would then be additional rocking forces. Because the two in middle of stroke would be imposing less 2ndary forces to those at the either tdc or bdc and therefore creating a little rocking force on the crank.
It is an interesting thought experiment and I wish I could try it in practice with old parts.
@@johndorn9752 Imagine an H2 engine. It's perfectly balanced as long as the crankpins are 180 degrees from each other. (aside from a very small rocking couple due to the pistons being offset by an inch or so.)
So put two H2's together where the first pair are at 0 and 180 degrees and the second pair are at 90 and 270 degrees. I'm also not an expert, but I don't see how this wouldn't be just as balanced as your flatplane crank H4
Everyone who has watched whole 22 minutes this video should get Certificate of V8 Engine Expert.
This is So much knowledge here man.
I Appreciate that hard work
I can't say enough regarding all the work that has gone into to above excellent tutorial. A BIG THANK YOU! I have learned so much.
Having owned two Ford GT 350‘s, and now driving the current Chevrolet 2021C8 Corvette, you my friend have got your facts perfectly in line with the reality. My order for the new C8 flat plane crank is only confirmed after your brilliant deep dive into statistics and the mechanics of these engineered marvels. Thank you for your time.
nice one, cheers for the mention!
It's the very least I can do. Thank you for allowing me to use your awesome stuff.
My 1st car was bought new by my grandmother in 1964. It was the 1st Mustang Ford produced. It was a fantastic 1st car for me back in the early 70’s. Man I miss that car. My Dad sold it to a buddy of my uncle who restored Mustangs as a hobby, so I know it went to a great home. 👍🏻
It should be noted that GM is using Titanium connecting rods to lighten the reciprocating mass of the engine, which is interesting.
Lot of manufacturers have done that with flat planes. first time ferrari did it was with f355 in 1994. increased mass increases secondary forces thats why they are doing everything they can to lighten the rotating assembly
as my above comment stated, it’s actually a common practice, but I believe this is potentially the first time we’ll be getting those rods in a car less than $100k (I say potentially, we don’t know the price of the C8 Z06 just yet)
The original NSX had titanium rods. In 1990.
@@jkl6868 did the guy say they were the first? He just said its worth mentioning it. Jeez, calm down..😂
@@RBZ06LT6 🤣just an FYI to let people know that this is not new!
You managed to make the explanation interesting, this is like the 4th video on the subject I tried watching and the first I actually finished
Yet another totally awesome video!!! You sir, have set the standard! Thank you!
Voodoo definitely has a pissed off machine gun sound
FINALLY! A VIDEO EXPLAINING THIS! I always try to explain to people why the GT350 flag plane crank isn’t even a GOOD flat plane crank, but they just get so hung up on “flat plane crank” that they can’t see the massive downfalls of the Ford variant
Just Ford doing Ford things 😂
I on the other hand have massive respect for Ford for doing something new, weird and out of the box. We already have Ferraris, BMW's and Audi's super cars. They are engineering marvels, perfection, but also nothing new and kinda bland at this point. Car manufacturers should take more risks, make something new and fun that breaks the molds just for the sake of it instead of aiming for yet-another-perfect but ultimately characterless machine. Have more artists and visionaries than text book engineers. Be outrageous like Lamborghinis of old before they became Ferrari 2.0. Sure not every car will be a hit but at least there would be a lot more memorable ones.
@@MaaZeus the issue was it wasn’t about “being weird” or “adding character”, it was because Ford was being cheap and didn’t want to restructure the front end to account for the dual plane intake manifold that would be needed for a traditional flat plane firing order
I applaud your expertise and well thought out presentation of a complicated subject
The redline of an engine is MUCH more dependent on the valvetrain than it is on the weight of the crankshaft. If you increase valvetrain rigidity, cross-plane, pushrod engines can easily rev in excess of 10,000 RPM - and be very snappy and responsive.
My understanding on secondary imbalance is that is caused by the fact that when the crankshaft turns, the piston moving downward from top dead center actually moves a greater distance than the piston moving upward from bottom dead center. Draw this out and you will see how this works; Move the crankshaft 30 degrees from TDC and measure how far down the bore the piston top is, and then do the same from BDC; The downward moving piston covers more distance and as such there is more upward push on the crankshaft from the descending than downward push from the rising piston.
The C8 ZO6 engine prototype initially ran so rough that parts were literally falling off....
Great video!
Yes that is one way to explain it, especially in the inline four. I did that explanation before as well if you check my older engine balance videos. But I eventually switched over onto this explanation as I found it more straightforward and it eliminates the variables of rod ratio and such.
Yes that is one way to explain it, especially in the inline four. I did that explanation before as well if you check my older engine balance videos. But I eventually switched over onto this explanation as I found it more straightforward and it eliminates the variables of rod ratio and such.
Very cool, i remember suggesting this one last year in one of your iconic engines videos. Didn't know it had those funky headers or that up down crank shaft. All i knew was the great power per liter and awesome sound. Thanks for the knowledge
The discussion surrounding the relative benefits of either cross-plane or flat-plane cranks and RPM performance is pretty much secondary to the benefits of tremendously more rigid valve trains and multiple valves per cylinder/breathing capability. The earliest V8's were limited to flat-plane designs because they were far simpler to build and lower cost. Don't forget that the V8's at the highest levels of specific output (with commensurately high RPM's) are cross-plane (things like nitro burning Chrysler Hemi's etc). Yes they don't last forever while producing 13,000 HP but if there was some major benefit to using flat-plane cranks in these engines they would have done it decades ago. Ford didn't want to have their car sound like a Ferrari? I'll take the sound of a Ferrari over a Mustang any day! At least the C8 Z06 comes very close in this regard. EDIT: Also needs to be noted that in many of the highest performance aftermarket applications, flat plane cranks as found in Honda's and many others, use fully counterweighted designs and run them at crazy high RPM. The rotational inertia of the crank is dominated by the flywheel which has a much higher radius of gyration (far more mass farther away from the axis of rotation). If you need better throttle response more is to be gained from reducing mass at the flywheel than by the removal of counterweights which are super close to the axis of rotation. In short, cranks are definitely not the biggest determination of an engines RPM or specific output potential despite all the market hype coming from manufacturers.
I absolutely loved my gt350. Hands down the best sound to ever come from a show room car under 100k…… $43k under 100k. For less than $60k you had amazing sound that went through track tires every weekend, issue free.
i'd rather have a c-8 at 60k...it would out perform that stang in every way..Jay Leno got one to run 2.6 seconds 0-60 completely stock
How do you catagorize Completely stock?
@@ajctrading in the way that its completely stock. Get it now?
ohhhhh myyyyyy goshhhhhhhhhhhh, I LOVE this video...........particularly the opinion stated from 21:16 to the end....................my eyes are watering I'm laughing so hard...Thank you for a great explanation of these designs!
Ford also lost tons of money in grenading Voodoo engines. Hence why it was discontinued even as demand for it was very high. Its honestly a frankenstein engine.
Absolutely not why it was discontinued. Car was a limited run from day one.
I’m a Ford dealer technician at a large shop. The only voodoo engine I’ve seen blown up was because the owner missed 3rd gear and got 1st when downshifting on the track. AKA money shift. Carnage was impressive. 🙂
@@ghostwrench2292😖wow
This is the absolute definitive guide on the flat plane crank...thank you.
Truly great video! You answered a burning question about the Voodoo engine. Thanks a ton for that.
I have a question and maybe a request. Could you address the V-10 engines that Chrysler and Ford made? I believe these were V-8s with the blocks extended to add two more cylinders. But what did they do to the crankshaft? Do they have split-pins to replicate a 72 degree firing order? I can't seem to find a photo or an article that addresses this. These V-10s have been around for years and I still don't know how they did it.
The Ford V10's have crankpins split forward by 18° so that each pair of cylinders fires 72° apart. The same is true for the older 5.0 Lambo V10, which is why you can make a Gallardo sound like F1.
Even fire V10 pros: Even firing, less torsional vibration (instantaneous torque goes between 1.58 and 0.36 times the mean torque), smoother, lighter flywheels can be used.
Even fire V10 cons: Perfect primary balance requires a boxer configuration or 108° V angle with +36° split crankpins. 90° and 72° angles have a significant primary rocking moment. Split-pin crank not as strong or stiff as common-pin crank.
The Dodge Viper, BMW S85, and 5.2 Lambo engines have non-split crankpins and thus fire unevenly (with firing intervals alternating between 90° and 54°). This is why the Huracán sounds like a 5 cylinder and can't sound like F1.
Odd fire (90°) V10 pros: Perfect primary balance with only crank weights needed (no balance shaft), stiffer crankshaft.
Odd fire V10 cons: More torsional vibration (instantaneous torque goes from 1.91 times to 0.012 times the mean torque, and you have more high-order harmonics, with the 7.5 and 12.5 orders being the worst offenders in this engine), rougher running, heavier flywheel required.
So the C8 Z06 has become the darling of my engineering eye, and hearing the difference in the different v8 engines brought this maniacal smile to my face.
Great job, great engine and car. Even from the 60s with the factory tuned exhaust manifolds, the mustang has always owned a distinctive sound that is borderline hit music. Good job Ford
Your discernment is exceptional!
20:07 Literally sounds like a Mustang married a Ferrari and this is the resulting Italian-American kid's accent.
the 350 sound has that x factor that no other engine has, i wonder what it would sound like if it was smaller like say a 4.0, would it sound and feel like compared to the audi RS4 and E90/92 M3 ...
Make some weird headers like that and find out
Damn. What a video. I thought I was knowledgeable about engines, but this was informative, and the graphics were perfect, and I learnt a shitload. Wish I had more thumbs up to give this video.
You’re like the Anton Petrov of car science
I work with a couple of guys that own those mustangs. Without knowing why, I came to the conclusion that they sound amazing. Now I know the why.
Always thought the GT350 sounded like a kaiju, like it could’ve done voice over for pacific time or something. Now I now why, it’s because it’s just weird. Lol
Thank you!I am a Old school Chevy nut but very well explained. Thank you again!
Very informative. I didn't realize the Voodoo was so unique. They made an inferior design for sound. Huh. Cool.
Cause this Murica that's why...lol.
Very informative and well presented. I've tried to explain to people why one engine sounds better than another. Most people think it the exhaust system. I've always known the firing order has all to do with it. Especially when its alternating from one bank to the other bank, rather than one cylinder firing and another in succession on the same bank.
Glad I found your channel. Going to watch more right now! Keep sharing your great knowledge. It always amazes me to hear real engineering explained. I knew there was more than meets the eye with crankshaft design and firing sequence. Then you bring out the rocking and primary/secondary forces and it is amazing that all these things are figured into the design of just the crankshaft! Like piston pin location slighly off from center line. One time an engineer commented on reasons we have different tranny fluids (Mercon, Dextron etc) It floored me with how much technology goes into the fluids, the chemistry and how some react to various gasket materials and especially O-ring materials like Viton seals. Amazing stuff 👍👍👍🇺🇸
Ford in the US: “We want Mustangs to sound like mustangs so we wont put a regular flatplane V8 into it.
Also ford in Europe: *puts a 2.3 4cyl ecoboost into the Mustang
Makes sense..
i bet there are more 4 banger stangers sold in america than in europe. i believe over 80% of the mustangs sold in europe are gt ones. we buy mustang for the v8 because if we want a boosted 4 cyl there's the focus.
I dont know about the US but in Hungary I see like 1/3 ecoboost and 2/3 gt mustangs.
I just cant ever understand ppl buying i4 mustangs.. like you said. Buy a focus then 😅
I'm looking up that William Moser right now!
Kudos to you for making these videos man! Will you make a video about different kind of suspensions? I don't know just saying, it'll be cool
Yes, definitely, suspensions will be coming in the future once I exhaust some of the key stuff from engines
@@d4a Dont forget a wird but genius suspension from the citroen 2CV6 and DS.
Not related but you should look at Puch Pinzgauer drivetrain as well it is completely different as others are.
Thank you for providing detailed explanation of the Voodoo engine, was wondering about this for almost a year
Awesome video, definitely shows how the engines work and why they sound like they do!
Indeed, the modern GT350 is the meanest sounding engine around. You, sir, are definitely a true car guy.
A heavy crankshaft certainly adds to the flywheel effect, making an unladen engine gain and lose RPM more slowly. But how could it limit operating RPM?
Functionally it doesn't. He's wrong there.
Because it vibrates and flexes more due to its own weight, also puts more stresses on the bearings. Of course you can't rev it high despite that, just lot less reliably
Most red lines are soft red lines today determined by when the power rolls over. As such a flat plane because of the exhaust scavenging will make peak power slightly higher delaying rollover by a few hundred rpm everything else being equal.
Correction at 17:35, the Mustang Buyer does not have enough belt buckle. 😂 Absolutely awesome video bro. 👍 I test drove a 2016 Mustang GT350 and it was fast as shit and very stable, but the engine kind of felt like two S2000 engines bolted together. It lacked low end torque but absolutely screamed at the top end. I suppose it's the way the cams are set up. The other thing that struck me about that car was how normal it was when not driving balls-to-the-wall. Like you could actually live with one as a daily driver. The one we checked out at CarMax (a used car retail chain) had definitely been someone's track car, the front splitter was torn up and there was gravel on top of the engine tray, side skirts, and in the exhaust. I guess the previous owner decided he'd slid off track one to many times and dumped the thing. 😂
Ford used this layout because it gave the best breathing characteristics with their weird 4-3-1 headers. And they had to use 4-3-1 headers because 4-2-1 or 4-1 did not fit in the mustang engine bay with the cats they wanted to use.
They did this because of the sentimental attachment of Americans to their notion of what a V8 sounds like. The result is a very compromised engine.
This makes a lot more sense to me, changing crank arrangement just to go for a sound signature sounds (pun intended) a bit silly to me.
@@AugustoRallo no lol he's not correct at all, they compromised their engine for sound, the headers they use take up MORE space than the correct 4:2:1 headers a flat plan should have (with the correct crank) as evidence by the fact you can purchase aftermarket headers in that configuration that fit
Ok I Know I'm not the only one thinking this is either the smartest mechanic to ever walk the earth or he's reading directly from a script lol
On flat plane V8s, inline 4s, secondary imbalances, redlines, and displacement:
The C8 Z06 has a 5.5L flat plane V8 that redlines at 8600rpm. As was mentioned in the video, a V8 can be thought of as two i4s meeting at the crank. So if we look at the per cylinder bank of the C8 Z06, what we would have is a 2.75L i4 with an 8600 rpm redline. Consider this for a moment. High revving i4s that large are exceedingly rare, and you won't find them in a production vehicle. The reason is those secondary vibrations. So why can the Z06 do this when a normal 4 cylinder generally can not?
The answer is this: Each cylinder bank partially cancels the vibrations of the other bank. Because the two cylinder banks are not parallel, the vibrations partially oppose each other. This means the total magnitude of those secondary vibrations of that 5.5L V8 would only be ~70% higher than the vibrations of a correspondingly similar 2.75L i4, in spite of having 100% increased displacement. Hence flat-plane V8s can gain a little bit of per-cylinder displacement, relative to an inline 4.
As the V angle gets wider, this partial cancelation increases until you have a 180 degree V, which at that point what you have is a boxer-8, which is perfectly balanced.
This channel is so underrated...I am just consuming it all 🤪 I will listen to everything...such a good explanation about engine details...more of everything 😎
I am the new subscriber from now on...also the engine lover, everything from V8 to diesel...to two strokes amd Wankels...transmissions and forced inductions...everything 💪
This question is coming from the place of ignorance but honest curiosity,
Why is it not possible to fire in sequence from 1st to 2nd to 3rd to 4th to 5th to 6th to 7th to 8th?
Like this:
1 -- 2
3 -- 4
5 -- 6
7 -- 8
Kind of like a caterpillar or centipede using its front legs first and then progressively moving further back to the rear legs to propel itself forward.
Vastly inefficient configuration
That would require a very complex crankshaft assembly - think 2 crossplane crankshafts offset from each other. It would be very heavy, and the counterweight necessary to counteract the imbalances would make it generally incapable of producing any real power.
It's possible as far as I know, but I think the primary reason to avoid it is to reduce undesirable forces on the crankshaft. Putting all the force on one crank pin twice in a row repeatedly for every section of the crankshaft would cause a lot of twisting force that could shorten the life of the crank and create extra wear on the supporting bearings. That's my guess.
You can imagine combustion events as a "hit" on the engine...and you can imagine the engine as a boat. Your goal is to keep hitting the boat without sinking it. This is is why you want to even out the distribution of your hits from the outside in and then from the outside out. Every combustion event essentially tries to unbalance the engine or "tip the boat" so you hit it on the other end to prevent it from tipping over. Hitting it repeatedly in the same spot will obviously sink it very fast. Excuse the slightly stupid analogy :)
@@d4a stupid analogy? No, that is very intuitive for a layperson to understand?