I've been wanting to rework the overflow and return system on our 75g almost since we got it. For some reason, it never occurred to me that I could use both holes as drains and run the return over the back. Brilliant.
I love the set up. My inner plumber aquarium enthusiast self tells me ball valves would give you more control of your flow, and also more dependable as far a valves go. Great video! I have a 220 Marineland I just leak tasted after re- seal, and built new aluminum frames. Thanks for the tips!
Hmm - I think you have it backwards. Ball valves are less reliable, less precise, and have a tendency to freeze up and break. Gate valves have none of those issues.
@WoodBob I may be wrong but I have fixed more broken stems and frozen gate valves than anything and I've been dung it for years as a profession. I have never seen ball valves break, or get frozen beyond opening. I have had to replace handles from wearing out is all. I will admit gate valves are better for flow control, as I just looked into it.
Great and easy to understand video. I have a large (150 gal) tank with sump in our bedroom and the durso probably saved my marriage just for noise reduction, LOL! I did a similar video dispelling the myths of sumps. Almost impossible to flood when dialed in. Thanks!
Popping in to give a quick thanks and thumbs up. I used this video as the guide for plumbing my new 125 with mega’s. Dead quiet, amazing flexibility and peace of mind with the added drain lines. I inherited a Jebao DCT12000 with this tank and it can handle that at full blast if I wanted to run the Mississippi through my sump. Thanks for the great visual reference and demo 👍🏼
I bought a very nice and clean 120 with a 20 sump and it came with the previous plumbing, so now I know why there's a hole drilled into the supply line going into the sump. Thank you so much!
I found this incredible helpful and am going to try it in my new 125 tank. The plumbing kit that comes with this tank is so LOUD! All the air that gets into the Durso does a lot of gurgling in the sump, like it needs a breather down below (but I'm not about to do one of those). I think this will significantly quieten my system.
@@muffemod it seems to kind of defeat the purpose of a drilled tank with that giant tube coming over the back of it. But I guess worrying about clogs is a big deal in some set ups. I do have weird problems where the side hole on the factory durso act as my drain hole instead of the open 90 with the cage on it. Which I think is for sound mitigation, but I think I might have to plug it and do the Dan hershaw air shut off valve out of the top.
This system is very similar to what I manufacturer Put some syphon breaker holes in the returns, below the waterline on the inside of the aquarium. Make sure you drill the holes so they neither on the bottom of the pipe or shooting water above the surface. This way the nozzles can be trained in any direction and plumbed to any level.
Hi I'm plumbing my 180 now just like yours it has the same dual overflows, but mine has both holes in each overflow are 1". Is it ok if I make the main siphon a 1.5" with an adapter inside the overflow and below the tank and then just keep the other hole as 1" for the open channel OR since both holes in each overflow are already 1" should I just keep all of them 1" or does the full siphon have to be bigger than the open channel?? My biggest problem is knowing how far down do I put the plumbing? How far is each pipe from the bottom of the weirs to the top of the pvc fitting on each one? Also, why did you not use a TEE on the return side and then split left and right behind the top of the tank and up and over to each return loc-line? I bought the Jebao MDP-15000 pump is it too much? I have 4 - 1" random flow generators that are feeding back into the tank. Thank you!
It doesn't matter if the full siphon and open channel are the same, or different, or either is bigger than the other. Keep them both at 1". The max flow will be whatever that sized pipe is and the open channel only flows the balance amount of water which will be just a trickle. For height inside the weir it doesn't really matter as long as the full siphon is below the water level. The open channel needs to be higher and will determine the water level inside the weir. For the return, I actually initially had a different setup that wasn't working for me. The setup in the video is what was easiest to modify from the previous setup. Every single Jebao product I have owned has failed. 100%. They are junk.
@@WoodBobthanks for the quick reply as I'm buying parts today. So another question with the full siphon side below the waterline, when turning off the pump is the open channel what breaks the full siphon when the water starts to go down, or will water continually siphon into sump until the full siphon breaks the siphon? I want to be sure I don't put the full siphon too far down if that's the case. I see that you're not liking Jebao anymore lol in my current small tank I have a Jebao smallest one they made that has been running 2 years with zero maintenance but I hear you on the cannot be trusted. Lastly how many GPH do you think the full siphon drains can handle? I plan on turning my tank over 4-5 times. Just curious on the return line again did you try the Tee I'm talking about or something different? Also why didn't you put the loc-lines further below the water line and then drill a siphon hole to break siphon?
1" can flow anywhere from 700-1000 GPH at full siphon depending on flow path. Water will continue to siphon down until the weir runs out of water at the level of the full siphon drain and the siphon breaks. The amount of water in the weir should not be enough to flood your sump tank though. I have switched back to my 100% reliable eheim pumps.
@@WoodBob last thing. Hard to fully tell by video but are the drains really really quiet? They seem to be much quieter than the dual herbi overflows I was going to do. Thanks again for all the great info!
I have never had that issue. The weir towers themselves have multiple inputs at the bottom, middle and top. That keeps the water in the weir circulating. If it did though, it would be fairly easy to vacuum out.
Ok ya both holes take 1" plumbing in them in each overflow so it doesn't matter then if I pull the full siphon in each overflow on the left or right side correct? I ask because it helps with routing the plumbing. Thanks!@@WoodBob
On the bottom of the bulkheads is a threaded connection (slip would also be fine) and in the weir the drains are simply set in place. They do not need to be water tight in the weir but coming out of the bottom, they do.
It is a 40 gallon "breeder" style tank which lends itself nicely to using as a sump. Full siphon means all of the pipe has water in it with no air. All water, all the time. There is a precise flow that a full siphon maintains that is dependent on gravity, distance, pipe size and a few other variables. In a closed system like a fish tank, there is no chance you could set up a full siphon drain and maintain the exact amount of return water that is needed to maintain the siphon. Too much and your pump runs dry, too little and the siphon runs out of water and "flushes". The solution is a separate "open" channel that runs in parallel with the full siphon. With the 2 drains, you set your return water to be slightly more water volume than the full siphon requires. This extra water flows down your open channel, which is variable rate (up to a point).
I'm doing the same thing with my 210 gallon except that the one inch full flow drains on mine have 1 1/4" normally closed electric solenoid valves that stay open for water flow when energized and close if there is a power failure. They are saltwater and acid rated with a 100% duty cycle. I used 1 1/4" valves to match the flow specs for one inch PVC since the valve's internal construction causes a little flow loss. The 1 1/4" valves are CPVC construction with stainless steel components. None of the stainless steel internal components come in contact with the saltwater because of the way they were designed. They are a little pricey but to me they were worth the added insurance.
So almost like an electronic version of a "check" valve except it closes with no power. I do like the idea in concept, but would not rely on it for flood control. Like a check-valve and the reason they fail is marine growth within the valve. When/if the time comes that you need this to close because power went out, you may find that it doesn't seal all the way.
can you provide a list of parts used? I see the 2 main drains & return are 1" and the siphons are 3/4". Size of the gate valves etc. thanks for the great video!
I always suggest getting 2-3x what you think you will need and return what you don't use. It is better than making multiple trips to Home Depot. The compression fittings and PVC gate valves I got from Amazon as Home Depot doesn't always have them. The loc-line came from bulkreefsupply. Always get slip (glue) over threaded. Threaded almost always leaks and is not worth the hassle IMO. Finding the right fittings to match your return pump can be a challenge. Sometimes they come with what you need but if not, take the pump to Home Depot to match slip x slip bulkheads - match your holes - bulkreefsupply has these 2x1" gate valve 2x3/4" gate valve 2x1" PVC compression fitting 2x3/4" PVC compression fitting 3/4" elbows (45 and 90) 1" elbows (45 and 90) 4x 3/4" Loc-Line Modular Hose (6 segments) 4x NPT Connector for 3/4" Loc-Line Modular Hose 4x Flare Nozzle for 3/4" Loc-Line Modular Hose 4x slip to 3/4" NPT fittings (returns for lock-line to screw into) PVC Strapping (to hold pipes up)
robc it's not a complete project without at least 3 trips to home depot...js lol. awesome video I'm just about to set up a 90 gal myself and I will be using this setup.
This setup is amazing--Any chance you could take a beter shot of the return lines to the tank? Just trying to source the PVC for the return from the pump and looking at the back of the pipe it is hard to tell. Great work
ok I have a question....why go with a Bean animal minus the emergency drain standpipe.....instead of a true Herbie? A Herbie will be similar: a full siphon + an e-drain. Seems to me that the Durso in your setup (the higher standpipe) is only causing noise at startup...and maybe delaying the full siphon from starting. Is there something I am not understanding ....I mean there must be a reason you skipped a true Herbie setup right?
This is a Herbie style drain running full siphon. A Durso is a single pipe and does not run as a full siphon. There is no way to reliably keep a full siphon exactly balanced. What you are calling the emergency drain (it is not) is there solely to balance the full siphon. Without it, the return flow would either be too low, causing flushing, or too much , causing a flood situation. A "true" Herbie with a full siphon and a dry emergency drain is a unicorn; It simply does not exist. The hole in the top of the overflow/balance standpipe/drain is to allow water to come up around the curved part of the pipe and trickle down. Without the hole, the pipe would create an air-lock and not allow the trickle to reliably start. It would probably start eventually, but the air hole helps a lot. You could mitigate that by simply having the top of the upper standpipe open for the water to trickle into. That would be somewhat louder but work just as well. My point in this video is to show that the 3rd "true emergency" drain of the Bean style is unnecessary with good tank design.
@@WoodBob Thanks for the reply. Interesting observations :-) Of course I have no idea (gotta read up more) about the true-ness of the e-drain in a Herbie. I have neither a Herbie nor a Bean Animal...so no real experience with either. I read about the emergency drain in a Herbie here: gmacreef.com/herbie-overflow-reef-tank-plumbing-method-basics/ so I assumed that information may be true. I suffer with a noisy Durso in a single mega-flow in my sole 75G DT...the noise is not really from the overflow...it emanates from the sump...where there are a ton of bubbles and splashing water. I have been researching and experimenting on a viable solution for days now :-(
Is your Durso sump drain pipe underwater in the sump? Exiting underwater should eliminate most of the splashing and noise. I suggest you set up your tank like I show using both mega flow pipes as drains and go over the back for the return water. It'll be whisper quiet and increase your flow. On paper (theory), a Herbie is a full siphon with an dry emergency drain. In practice (reality), you simply will never get a reliable perfectly balanced full siphon.
@@WoodBob Yes, my Durso drain is under the water line in my sump, by around 1 inch. It is the huge amount of air (which is pulled down by the falling water) which causes a bubbling and splashing and hence noise.......not the water going down itself. I have tuned the hole at the top, air valve etc. Those things help reduce noise in the overflow...which I have little to start with anyway. By they way, from whatever I have read so far, Herbie does not have a dry e-drain...it needs a trickle down the e-drain to function. Why does the e-drain need to be dry is the question still remaining in my mind :-) Noise? Slime buildup? IDK.
Yes this is one of the issues with a Durso - noise from falling water. If the emergency drain pipe is the same size as the primary full siphon pipe in a Herbie, then if a small trickle of water is going down that drain, if it was called upon to take over as a full-siphon, it would not have the capacity to become a full siphon. If it was a smaller pipe size, then it would never be able to act as an emergency drain, dry or not. If the pipe size was larger, then it could take a trickle and also act as an emergency drain.
Could the two drain lines be joined in a tee for a sump with 3 inputs? Or would this interfere with tuning each overflow via the gate valves? Seems like they will have minimal flow and if the sump water can’t overflow the tank it should be safe. So it’s just a matter of doing so would still allow each overflow siphon to find a level.
The 2 full siphon drains could not because they run at full siphon unless you tee'd them into a drain that could handle the flow. The trickle/open channel drains could with no issues.
Are both the drains in the same corner? If so, you could easily do just 2. Each side is totally independent of the other. You'd still go over the back for the return however.
There is no chance of 100% balancing a full siphon drain to where it both doesn't drain too much, creating flushing, or drain too little, flooding the tank. The open channel provides the tuning capabilities where you run your return flow just slightly higher than what is necessary to maintain a full siphon. The open channel ideally will have just a trickle flowing but if you were to have more, it would be able to handle it as well.
I recently got a 112g aquarium with dual overflow towers and my plan for plumbing it was going to use the bean animal method by plumbing the two towers together. One tower would house an emergency along with a durso overflow while the other tower would have the full siphon. I'm tempted to copy your set up however.
I also considered that design but my fear was not enough water in the open channel drain to keep that tower from becoming stagnant. And if running the full siphon in one and the open channel in the other it would be a lot harder to get the drains balanced.
robc The rest of my fittings are coming next weekend but I'm going to try connecting the two towers with a full siphon on one side while the open/emergency overflows in the other tower. I'll give it a try and I figure worst case scenario I can just close the valve between the two towers, add the needed hole for another overflow and then go with your method. I'll let you know how it goes. ;)
You can hook it up any way it works for you. Since both the drain and returns are now being used as drains you'll have to work out some sort of over-the-back return.
Would a check valve on the return pipe toward the top eliminate the possibility of the return becoming a full siphon in case one of the u-lines got knocked down?
Eliminate is subjective! Theoretically, it could. But I don't like relying on anything that could fail. Check valves are highly unreliable in an aquarium environment especially a saltwater setup. The easiest way to prevent a siphon is to drill a hole just beneath the water surface on the return line which will break the siphon once exposed to the air. On my setup the returns are just under the surface and my sump tank can take anything that would siphon down until the tips are exposed and the siphon breaks.
I've been researching Herbie overflows, and even did one, but I'm having trouble understanding the "open channel". Is it completely empty as if it was an emergency drain in a standard Herbie?
The open channel exists because it isn't possible to maintain a full-siphon without a little water running into another pipe to even (tune) things out. There will always be a little water trickling into the open channel.
I copied this for my 535 lt. marine tank and I turnover more than 4000 litres per hour (via twin Aqua Medic Eco Runner 6000 pumps . It is now TOTALLY silent and restores quickly after power cut. My tank uses 40mm piping and gate valve, but apart from that the setup is the same. Takes a little bit of trial and error to get the perfect result. Start with balancing the flow with the valve then adjust the height of your overflow pipe to get the best results. It's really weird that the tank makes NO sound and the loudest sound in the lounge is the ticking of a clock!
There is no set depth. The important thing is the full siphon needs to be at least 1/2" below the open channel so that it runs at full siphon and then slowly rises to trickle through the open channel. The height of your open channel determines the water level in the weir. The higher it is, the less noise the water will make as it flows into the weir from the aquarium.
When running this is at equilibrium. The auto-top-off works as designed. water level in the return chamber drops a little and is filled which does not affect siphon operation.
@@closewatcher8586 Actually what i meant was something else. As you simulate your blockage your auto top off will run until it runs out of water. This will overflow your main tank. Worst case scenario. I think emergency drain is a better idea as the plumbing is kept dry and only used in case of main line blockage. Unlike yours, my tank only has one big drain with a gate valve and a smaller emergency drain. My overflow tower is not even halfway full so there is some room for extra water there as well.
Ah ok I see what you mean. If a blockage occurs up to 10 additional gallons could be added to the entire tank volume from the overflow tank. I did take this into consideration and I do think my setup could manage an additional 10 gallons, however, I did not test that scenario. The odds of that happening are remote since both drains would need to clog at the same time which is highly unlikely. I would test that scenario but this tank has since been sold not to be replaced. I am concentrating on just the one marine tank also seen in the video (as a seahorse breeding tank).
@@closewatcher8586 Excellent. I just got back into this hobby after having a disaster. Thankfully my tank is on the ground level with floor tiles. I had to replace my bottom pane of glass that developed a small crack due to my mistake of over tightening bulkheads.A tiny very slow drip developed. Thankfully I did not have that much in the tank at that time. I only lost two maroon clownfish and a big blue tang. I was kind of suspecting a disaster but was too busy to properly fix it. My mistake.
I'm want to plumb my 125 the same. I'm ordering 1" ABS bulkheads for the large drains and 3/4" bulkheads for the small drains. What size pipe did you use for these? Anything holding them in the bulkhead like a rubber seal?
The 1" and 3/4" pipes in the overflow compartments are just sitting in the bulkhead. The large one is sitting in friction fit and the smaller one is sitting friction fit in a threaded to slip adapter. At the time I could not get a slip to slip bulkhead so I got a slip to threaded and use that adapter. It is not necessary to attach these as they do not need to be water tight and you want to be able to remove them easily for maintenance.
It doesn't matter. The open channel (smaller one) just needs to be higher than the larger one (full siphon) so that it will slowly drift up to it. When your pump is off, the level of the lower pipe will be where the water drains down to though.
just curious? did you have a problem with your evaporation rate in your sump? where does the water level drop? it seems like the last chamber, where the pump.
Yes, I lose about 2-3 gallons a day to evaporation. I have an ATO (Auto-top-off) on the tank (Tunze Osmolator). I plan on making a new video that shows this setup is still safe/flood-proof using the safeguards built into the Tunze to prevent too much water from being added to the tank in the event of a blockage.
Hey bob I have the same tank and I want to re arrange my drains exactly like urs! 😅 you think you can give me dimensions on how tall the pipes are I can do the return myself I just wanna copy your set up as I feel like mine ain’t doing so good 😅 thanks! 😊
this video was perfect, i was looking for a bean style setup with this type of tank. my question is, how long did you cut the 2 sets of pipes you installed inside the drain, looks like a 3/8 or 1/2" hole on top also, ty.
I am not quite sure how long those were but you can get a general idea from the video. As long as the full siphon is below the open channel, you'll be fine.
Hey Bob here's another question. Wanted to know why you didn't put any type of Strainer screen or something over the Siphon holes to prevent snails etc. from getting into the plumbing? I'm trying to decide if using one would be a good idea. Thanks!
This is a good question Mike! I did have a cover over each weir which prevented fish from jumping in. But there was probably room for a snail to get through the cracks. My snails were all too big to get into those cracks. It is not a bad idea though.
The standard kit is a Durso style drain which is not full-siphon and somewhat noisy not to mention has relatively low flow and tank turnover rate. Durso drains have largely been replaced in the industry by full-siphon style drains such as Herbie and Bean drains.
I like your design, the only concern I would have would be something that could clog those small air holes you have on the overflows. Snails or algae could clog that and prevent proper draining.
Hello WoodBob. I have the same exact tank and am getting ready to do the plumbing as you have designed here. The sump I have chosen has two inputs that go through the filter socks and a third that can be configured. My plan is to have each siphon feed the filter socks. Can I combine the plumbing of the open channels, since they are "trickling" compared to the siphons, into a single drain without impacting performance? TIA
Use slip (glue) connection bulkheads and simply set the drains into place without gluing. This allows for easy removal for maintenance. I use keg lube on all gaskets just be sure not to over-tighten (hand tight only).
No you will not be able to balance it out. It will either run too fast and "flush" or it will run too slow starving your return pump. The extra pipe is critical for balancing the full siphon. You might be able to run a full siphon in one weir and use the other one to balance. I have never tried that but it should work in theory! Good luck!
I have a 8ftx2ftx2ft and plan on using this idea, Im thinking 2x 32mm overflows one full siphon and one open channel what would be a good lph pump for that number
I use the 1" as the full siphon but it doesn't matter you could use either one. Just remember the full siphon stand pipe needs to be lower than the open channel so the extra water slowly rises up and trickles down the open channel.
The siphon is fully automatic since it relies on water being pumped up into the tank. There is no real "starting" of the siphon. As soon as the flow starts, the siphon starts. When it starts, any air is pushed out. If the water should fall below the full siphon stand-pipe (like if the pipe loses flow for whatever reason), water will still drain (slower flow) until the water level gets above the siphon again and then the siphon starts. This process will repeat in a "flush" cycle until the return water volume is increased or the full siphon drain rate is decreased (with the valve). You will frequently see this flush effect in Durso style drains when people push too much return water in an attempt to get higher flow.
Morning Bob. So I have my tank running for couple days and notice aome things and want to see what you think. I have a little stream a water coming out of the emergency drains is this normal to have and if so does that pipe go into the sump below water line so it's quiet. Also I have my flow pretty High I think which I kind of want because I have random flow generators on my returns and want those to create flow, but since flow is high I have a little more noise coming from my overflows but it's simply because of that fast flow. What do you think? I habe the mdp-15000 pump which I know you don't like but have it cranked up to 75 out of 100. This is on a 220 gallon tank with 4 large 1" returns and a 1-1/4" return feed pipe to those returns.
Yes this is fine because it is not an emergency drain it is the open channel used to balance the full siphon. There is no way to keep a full siphon going exactly so some water must trickle through the open channel. I have mine just below the water level into the sump so it is silent. If the noise is from the weir it is probably just the drop from water running into the weir. There isn't much you can do about that accept maybe raise your open channel stand-pipe as far as it will go (and still be 1/2 under water). Sounds like it is working great! 🙂
Super video! I am running a 125 double corner flow in my barn. I don’t care about water noise. Is there any other reason than noise that straight downtubes to the sump wouldn’t work in lieu of the siphon 180’s?
Correct. Get it going at full siphon, then slowly close the full siphon gate valve until the water rises to the open channel and just barely trickles. The open channel gate valves are not needed during normal operation I have them strictly for maintenance reasons.
Another question for ya Bob. In your sump does the first glass baffles after where your drains come in go all the way to the bottom of sump so water has to go over or do you have the glass baffles raised a little? And then the last glass baffles does it go to the bottom as well? Lastly the gate valves on the overflow pipe is it absolutely needed or can I just plumb it directly into sump? Thanks!
I do not have any path under the baffles or a bubble trap. I have 3 separate compartments and water flows only over those baffles. You do not need any valve on the overflow pipe. I have it only for maintenance. The full siphon does need a valve though.
ive got a 220ga aqueon tank fresh water with the jabeo 6000 dual overflows into a sump .... im getting a flush every so often from each side ive tried tuning with valves with no luck id greatly appreciate your help or suggestions! its my first time having a tank this large with overflows ive read an read but cant seem to figure out the flushing
Flushing means you have too much return water. Put a valve on your return pump and crank it back a bit or else set your pump to a lower speed. Full siphons do not have this issue but Durso style drains do. There is only so much water they can flow and then they flush.
robc thank you i will give this a try i just have a ball valve do you suggest a gate valve like you have or doesnt really matter? also as far as the the 1" bulkhead return pipe should my pvc be larger than the bulk head and use a bushing to reduce back down to 1"? thanks for the quick response!
If you have a Jabeo 6000 pump you can reduce the flow with its controller. If not, then a gate or ball valve will work (gate is better). I don't think for the return water it matters if you have a larger going down to a smaller pipe with a bushing (drains can benefit from this setup). I would just use what works. 1" is what you should be using with a 1" bulkhead.
You can avoid any chance of getting dry running pump by adding a float switch. Being that you have a dc pump, a boat bilge switch can be wired right in.
Sorry Kim I don't have any plans other than this video. Really it is just plumbing though. As long as you are close to this design everything should work great.
@@WoodBob can this exact setup be done on any tank? I built a 300 gallon plywood tank and haven't figured out my filtration yet. I'm using a 75 gallon tank for a sump.
Great video! Have a 125 that am going the same route with, but will use the two 3/4 returns as the siphons since they should be about 1500 gph combined. And the two 1" should gravity feed any extra needed. Was planning on a Jabao dcp-6500. Considering you used the 1"er's for siphon was wondering how much your valves dialed back the flow...
If you mean the sump is in the basement and the tank on the floor above it I don't see any real concerns. I would test the fail scenario since the amount of water that will be in the pipes could be enough to flood in the event of a pump outage.
I have to jebao 12000 on the same tank.... how much flow will two 3/4” full siphons be? I’d rather just keep my 1” mega flows how they are and just modify the 3/4” returns to become full siphons. Thank you sir
I just bought a 180 gallon tank with a single overflow. 2 bulkhead in the overflow, a 1 inch and a 2 inch. Up til watching this video, I was planning on running a die so in the 2 inch and a single return in the 1 inch split into 2 lock lines. My return chamber doesn't have cut-outs for return (lock) lines. I was trying to figure out the best way to plumb this. Now that I've watched this, I'm thinking my best option is to go with a full siphon setup like yours and running my return behind the tank as you've done and over the back rim. Would this in fact be a better option with a single overflow?
For sure a full siphon is a better option! Over the back returns are much better and allow greater placement of return flow like I did with multiple returns across the top.
How would you handle the 1 inch and 2 inch bulkhead in the overflow? Would you step the 2 inch down to a 1 inch at the bulkhead to keep all pvc 1 inch?
No it doesn't really matter what size the pipe is as long as it fits the fittings. The bulkhead holes will dictate what size pipe to use I suggest not changing the size but I doubt it matters either way. I know there is a durso video out that talks about using bigger size pipe and necking it down but this is a full siphon so it doesn't matter if the pipe changes size or not.
Got both canisters plumbed together, one side works as it should but as the one drops water level inside the overflow, the other side just stays the same. Maybe because of the intake is the same as the return flow? Thanks for any help or suggestions
This is a good question. I do not run the open channel through a filter sock, just the full-siphon channels. However, you could. I don't think it is necessary. This drain when operating efficiently only carries a trickle of water.
@@WoodBob Hey Rob, quick question for you. I'm setting this up for the first time and trying to figure out how much room I need to leave in the sump to handle the water drain from the overflows. Do you know how much water is held in each overflow chamber or at least a good guess? I want to maximize the amount of water my system holds. Thanks in advance for your help.
The overflows on my tank probably hold about a gallon each when running maybe 2 gallons if they were totally full. Keep in mind more than what is in the overflow will flow back when the pump is off. What is in the pipes and what is above the weir opening will also flow back.
robc thanks Rob and yes I was thinking about the pipes and above the weir as well. Why do you think is the best way to determine the amount of room I should leave in the sump? I’m sure there is an easy answer to this, I just can’t think of it right now. Should I just fill the tank up and then test in increments turning the pump off and letting everything drain? And then repeat until water level finds the perfect point?
That is exactly what I would do. Only install your return section divider and see how high you can go with the water and still be flood-proof. Once you determine that, put in your glass at that height.
Also add a simple mechanical float switch that would kill the return pump if the water level falls too low. Would save your return pump from burning up.
This is a good idea. But not sure how this could be incorporated to actually electrically disable the pump. The Tunze includes 2 float switches for normal operations. I'll investigate a float switch that can cut power to the entire mechanism. Thanks!
This is the Jabeo DC-6000 with about 4 feet of head. It is rated at around 1500gph. I am very happy with the Jabeo pumps I also have a DC-9000. Those are 1" drains so will run around 2400gph each at full siphon maximum. My estimate is they are at about 25% of max capacity each (600gph), or slightly over 1200gph total flow for both drains.
Yes it has to have a small trickle down the open channel. There really is no way you will ever get a full siphon drain exactly balanced. You need to have a smidgen more than full siphon. The open channel takes that slight extra trickle to balance the system.
Yep - you are golden that setup should work great. Set up the exact same way. 1 tube in each weir for full siphon and 1 for the open channel. Return over the top.
What are you going to do for top off? Are you going to have a reservoir? Just curious because if all 4 drains do some how clog, don’t see it happening, and your return section becomes dry, won’t the ATO empty itself?
Hi Bob - I realize this is several years old, but wondering how the Jebao pump is holding up in your system. Too, why did you modify the Megaflow/Durso to a Herbie, were you not getting enough drain GPH? I am setting up a 210 that has the megaflow system and if I'm calculating the flow correctly, with the two drains I should have more than enough to support turning the tank 10x per hour. Just curious, but I do like your modification and would definitely use it if needed, ~Tim
The Jebao has failed along with every single other Jabao product I owned (pumps, wave makers, etc). I replaced it with the bulletproof Eheim and will never purchase Jebao again. The conversion was done primarily for noise control. The Herbie is dead silent. But add to that the increased flow from going full siphon and it's a big win. Thanks Tim good luck!
Great video! Question...I'm going to do this to my 90 as well..what happens if the the full siphon clogs? The other drain becomes full siphon? I got new bulkheads to fit for Both my drains to be 1"..is that ok? (Both holes in bottom of tank are same size, apparently they didnt used to be in older models)
If just 1 full siphon clogged, it is possible that the open channel would go full siphon. I don't think it would carry the load though but the other open channel might be able to take up the slack in that scenario. But the design doesn't depend on this for safety (from flooding). I'll have to experiment with this and see what it does thanks for the idea!
@@WoodBob Thanks! just asking because I'm going to do this with only one overflow, but I guess it doesnt matter what the 2nd drain does because compared to the durso single drain it came with..its much safer just to have a second drain at all.
Ah ok - I see part 2 of your question. With just 2 holes both being 1", if the full siphon of the 2 failed, the other might go full siphon but it would not be able to carry all the load due to not having an open channel. In this case it would probably flush until you realized something was wrong and corrected it.
Hey Bob, another one here - You have gate valves on both the Full Siphon & overflow siphon on each side. You mentioned that the overflow siphon valve is just there to turn off/on if needed. So in that case do we even need a valve on it or can it be an open pipe right into the emergency section of the sump? Does that valve you have on it now serve any other tuning capability or simply just on/off?
This is a great set-up (and a very well done video) and I think I will do the same with my 90 gallon. Thank you! One question though, do you find you have to top-off your sump frequently due to evaporation? The last chamber in your sump (where the return pump is) is necessarily small (so you don't flood your display tank in the event of a drain clog), but I'm concerned that evaporation loss would mean you were constantly topping off the sump.
so the old return line size is 3/4" and the full siphon is 1" correct? there is no reason you can't run this setup on a single overflow tank like a 90 gallon right? I have a trigger systems ruby 36 sump, and a jebao DCP8000, pretty sure I'll run it dry before flooding as well.
Yeah it would be identical but you'd lose some of the redundancy of the 2nd weir. Not an issue if designed properly like you stated that it won't overflow no matter what direction should stop.
Thanks! Check valve where? There is no place where a check valve would do anything accept get gummed up. They are not needed on a properly designed system.
+robc right on top of the return pump. so when you shut off your pump to feed your fish the water doesn't drain back into the tank. it will just start right back up. I've never seen a tank in 20 years or so of doing aquariums not have a check valve on the return. Nor have I ever have one gum up or even need to be cleaned.
Thanks for the comments! Typically in the Saltwater world, check valves are not used. On this style return where the siphon starts automatically, there is no need to keep the return lines primed with water by using a check valve. Tanks I have seen with check valves usually "need" the check valves and should the valve fail, the sump tank would flood, and hence the reason for the check valve. As you have seen in this video, there is no chance of a flood. For an air line I would agree with you that they benefit from a check valve, but for a drain that is fully automatic, they really do not add anything to the setup. In saltwater tanks, the growth of marine life inside the check valve has a good chance of rendering it inoperable anyway. With my setup, I count on that extra volume in the pipes and the tank to drain back into my sump when the return pump is turned off for my water changes. Without it, I do not have enough water in the sump for the volume I replace and would have to remove water from the display tank. If you look on the side of the sump, you will see black lines which indicate the water level when the pump is off and water has drained back and in 5 gallon increments thereafter.
I forgot to ask. How far from the overflow grids/top should we have the top of the open channel? Looks maybe 2"? How much lower should we make the full siphon? Thanks again.
I've been wanting to rework the overflow and return system on our 75g almost since we got it. For some reason, it never occurred to me that I could use both holes as drains and run the return over the back. Brilliant.
Heh
I love the set up. My inner plumber aquarium enthusiast self tells me ball valves would give you more control of your flow, and also more dependable as far a valves go.
Great video! I have a 220 Marineland I just leak tasted after re- seal, and built new aluminum frames. Thanks for the tips!
Hmm - I think you have it backwards. Ball valves are less reliable, less precise, and have a tendency to freeze up and break. Gate valves have none of those issues.
@WoodBob I may be wrong but I have fixed more broken stems and frozen gate valves than anything and I've been dung it for years as a profession.
I have never seen ball valves break, or get frozen beyond opening.
I have had to replace handles from wearing out is all.
I will admit gate valves are better for flow control, as I just looked into it.
I think i will be copying this setup . Very simple and effective . Thanks for the demonstration .
Great and easy to understand video. I have a large (150 gal) tank with sump in our bedroom and the durso probably saved my marriage just for noise reduction, LOL! I did a similar video dispelling the myths of sumps. Almost impossible to flood when dialed in. Thanks!
I inhereted a 120 with this drain set up and was at a loss as to how to plumb it. Thank you so much for this!
Popping in to give a quick thanks and thumbs up. I used this video as the guide for plumbing my new 125 with mega’s. Dead quiet, amazing flexibility and peace of mind with the added drain lines. I inherited a Jebao DCT12000 with this tank and it can handle that at full blast if I wanted to run the Mississippi through my sump. Thanks for the great visual reference and demo 👍🏼
I bought a very nice and clean 120 with a 20 sump and it came with the previous plumbing, so now I know why there's a hole drilled into the supply line going into the sump. Thank you so much!
Absolutely fantastic video. This is exactly what I'm going to do on my 180 (with all 1'' drains) Thank you so much for making this video!
Hello, my friend! I've seen a lot of samps and systems. Yours is just perfect. Like 👍
This is what most people SHOULD be doing with their megaflow setups and then return over the back. Well done.
Wow i don’t ever see this flooding i love it you have made me feel safe with sumps
I found this incredible helpful and am going to try it in my new 125 tank. The plumbing kit that comes with this tank is so LOUD! All the air that gets into the Durso does a lot of gurgling in the sump, like it needs a breather down below (but I'm not about to do one of those). I think this will significantly quieten my system.
Phenomenal explanation and demonstration.... thank you!
It's amazing that most people don't do this with their setup.
It's pretty cool. Why does one do this instead of the factory tubing?
@@-8_8- It's more quiet, actually completely silent. It's safer than a traditional factory setup, in case of blockage.
@@muffemod it seems to kind of defeat the purpose of a drilled tank with that giant tube coming over the back of it. But I guess worrying about clogs is a big deal in some set ups.
I do have weird problems where the side hole on the factory durso act as my drain hole instead of the open 90 with the cage on it. Which I think is for sound mitigation, but I think I might have to plug it and do the Dan hershaw air shut off valve out of the top.
Finally a video with the info i was looking for. Informative and simple great work man.
This system is very similar to what I manufacturer Put some syphon breaker holes in the returns, below the waterline on the inside of the aquarium. Make sure you drill the holes so they neither on the bottom of the pipe or shooting water above the surface. This way the nozzles can be trained in any direction and plumbed to any level.
Simple and effective I think I'm going to do this with my 75 gallon megaflow thanks a lot that was very helpful👍
Hi I'm plumbing my 180 now just like yours it has the same dual overflows, but mine has both holes in each overflow are 1". Is it ok if I make the main siphon a 1.5" with an adapter inside the overflow and below the tank and then just keep the other hole as 1" for the open channel OR since both holes in each overflow are already 1" should I just keep all of them 1" or does the full siphon have to be bigger than the open channel?? My biggest problem is knowing how far down do I put the plumbing? How far is each pipe from the bottom of the weirs to the top of the pvc fitting on each one? Also, why did you not use a TEE on the return side and then split left and right behind the top of the tank and up and over to each return loc-line? I bought the Jebao MDP-15000 pump is it too much? I have 4 - 1" random flow generators that are feeding back into the tank. Thank you!
It doesn't matter if the full siphon and open channel are the same, or different, or either is bigger than the other. Keep them both at 1". The max flow will be whatever that sized pipe is and the open channel only flows the balance amount of water which will be just a trickle. For height inside the weir it doesn't really matter as long as the full siphon is below the water level. The open channel needs to be higher and will determine the water level inside the weir.
For the return, I actually initially had a different setup that wasn't working for me. The setup in the video is what was easiest to modify from the previous setup.
Every single Jebao product I have owned has failed. 100%. They are junk.
@@WoodBobthanks for the quick reply as I'm buying parts today. So another question with the full siphon side below the waterline, when turning off the pump is the open channel what breaks the full siphon when the water starts to go down, or will water continually siphon into sump until the full siphon breaks the siphon? I want to be sure I don't put the full siphon too far down if that's the case. I see that you're not liking Jebao anymore lol in my current small tank I have a Jebao smallest one they made that has been running 2 years with zero maintenance but I hear you on the cannot be trusted.
Lastly how many GPH do you think the full siphon drains can handle? I plan on turning my tank over 4-5 times.
Just curious on the return line again did you try the Tee I'm talking about or something different? Also why didn't you put the loc-lines further below the water line and then drill a siphon hole to break siphon?
1" can flow anywhere from 700-1000 GPH at full siphon depending on flow path.
Water will continue to siphon down until the weir runs out of water at the level of the full siphon drain and the siphon breaks. The amount of water in the weir should not be enough to flood your sump tank though.
I have switched back to my 100% reliable eheim pumps.
@@WoodBob last thing. Hard to fully tell by video but are the drains really really quiet? They seem to be much quieter than the dual herbi overflows I was going to do. Thanks again for all the great info!
The drains are 100% silent. All you will hear is the hum of the motor.
I have this same tank and will definitely convert it to this system. Very nice work.
Is there any concern with detritus building up at the bottom of the overflow towers?
I have never had that issue. The weir towers themselves have multiple inputs at the bottom, middle and top. That keeps the water in the weir circulating. If it did though, it would be fairly easy to vacuum out.
Hey Bob does it matter on which side inside each overflow the full vs. emergency siphon is on?
It doesn't matter other than if one of your holes is larger like mine, I suggest making that your full siphon.
Ok ya both holes take 1" plumbing in them in each overflow so it doesn't matter then if I pull the full siphon in each overflow on the left or right side correct? I ask because it helps with routing the plumbing. Thanks!@@WoodBob
Yep - whatever makes it easier to plumb.
how did you hook up drains & returns to bulkheads thx you
On the bottom of the bulkheads is a threaded connection (slip would also be fine) and in the weir the drains are simply set in place. They do not need to be water tight in the weir but coming out of the bottom, they do.
Good Video. Nice set up. Mark the valves and re-tuning is a breeze
Better yet, add a ball valve in series for service shutoff.
When the water drops below the inlets, and you start filling the overflows again. How is the air removed?
If I understand what you are asking, it is the holes drilled in the top of the overflow bends.
What gallon size sump Is that? And can you explain why the difference between full siphon and open please? And why do you need both ?
It is a 40 gallon "breeder" style tank which lends itself nicely to using as a sump. Full siphon means all of the pipe has water in it with no air. All water, all the time. There is a precise flow that a full siphon maintains that is dependent on gravity, distance, pipe size and a few other variables. In a closed system like a fish tank, there is no chance you could set up a full siphon drain and maintain the exact amount of return water that is needed to maintain the siphon. Too much and your pump runs dry, too little and the siphon runs out of water and "flushes". The solution is a separate "open" channel that runs in parallel with the full siphon. With the 2 drains, you set your return water to be slightly more water volume than the full siphon requires. This extra water flows down your open channel, which is variable rate (up to a point).
I'm doing the same thing with my 210 gallon except that the one inch full flow drains on mine have 1 1/4" normally closed electric solenoid valves that stay open for water flow when energized and close if there is a power failure. They are saltwater and acid rated with a 100% duty cycle. I used 1 1/4" valves to match the flow specs for one inch PVC since the valve's internal construction causes a little flow loss. The 1 1/4" valves are CPVC construction with stainless steel components. None of the stainless steel internal components come in contact with the saltwater because of the way they were designed. They are a little pricey but to me they were worth the added insurance.
So almost like an electronic version of a "check" valve except it closes with no power. I do like the idea in concept, but would not rely on it for flood control. Like a check-valve and the reason they fail is marine growth within the valve. When/if the time comes that you need this to close because power went out, you may find that it doesn't seal all the way.
can you provide a list of parts used? I see the 2 main drains & return are 1" and the siphons are 3/4". Size of the gate valves etc. thanks for the great video!
I always suggest getting 2-3x what you think you will need and return what you don't use. It is better than making multiple trips to Home Depot. The compression fittings and PVC gate valves I got from Amazon as Home Depot doesn't always have them. The loc-line came from bulkreefsupply.
Always get slip (glue) over threaded. Threaded almost always leaks and is not worth the hassle IMO.
Finding the right fittings to match your return pump can be a challenge. Sometimes they come with what you need but if not, take the pump to Home Depot to match
slip x slip bulkheads - match your holes - bulkreefsupply has these
2x1" gate valve
2x3/4" gate valve
2x1" PVC compression fitting
2x3/4" PVC compression fitting
3/4" elbows (45 and 90)
1" elbows (45 and 90)
4x 3/4" Loc-Line Modular Hose (6 segments)
4x NPT Connector for 3/4" Loc-Line Modular Hose
4x Flare Nozzle for 3/4" Loc-Line Modular Hose
4x slip to 3/4" NPT fittings (returns for lock-line to screw into)
PVC Strapping (to hold pipes up)
robc it's not a complete project without at least 3 trips to home depot...js lol. awesome video I'm just about to set up a 90 gal myself and I will be using this setup.
This was a great video, glad you posted it, I think I might use this idea a bit on my new 90
This setup is amazing--Any chance you could take a beter shot of the return lines to the tank? Just trying to source the PVC for the return from the pump and looking at the back of the pipe it is hard to tell. Great work
ok I have a question....why go with a Bean animal minus the emergency drain standpipe.....instead of a true Herbie? A Herbie will be similar: a full siphon + an e-drain. Seems to me that the Durso in your setup (the higher standpipe) is only causing noise at startup...and maybe delaying the full siphon from starting. Is there something I am not understanding ....I mean there must be a reason you skipped a true Herbie setup right?
This is a Herbie style drain running full siphon. A Durso is a single pipe and does not run as a full siphon. There is no way to reliably keep a full siphon exactly balanced. What you are calling the emergency drain (it is not) is there solely to balance the full siphon. Without it, the return flow would either be too low, causing flushing, or too much , causing a flood situation. A "true" Herbie with a full siphon and a dry emergency drain is a unicorn; It simply does not exist.
The hole in the top of the overflow/balance standpipe/drain is to allow water to come up around the curved part of the pipe and trickle down. Without the hole, the pipe would create an air-lock and not allow the trickle to reliably start. It would probably start eventually, but the air hole helps a lot. You could mitigate that by simply having the top of the upper standpipe open for the water to trickle into. That would be somewhat louder but work just as well.
My point in this video is to show that the 3rd "true emergency" drain of the Bean style is unnecessary with good tank design.
@@WoodBob Thanks for the reply. Interesting observations :-) Of course I have no idea (gotta read up more) about the true-ness of the e-drain in a Herbie. I have neither a Herbie nor a Bean Animal...so no real experience with either. I read about the emergency drain in a Herbie here: gmacreef.com/herbie-overflow-reef-tank-plumbing-method-basics/ so I assumed that information may be true. I suffer with a noisy Durso in a single mega-flow in my sole 75G DT...the noise is not really from the overflow...it emanates from the sump...where there are a ton of bubbles and splashing water. I have been researching and experimenting on a viable solution for days now :-(
Is your Durso sump drain pipe underwater in the sump? Exiting underwater should eliminate most of the splashing and noise. I suggest you set up your tank like I show using both mega flow pipes as drains and go over the back for the return water. It'll be whisper quiet and increase your flow.
On paper (theory), a Herbie is a full siphon with an dry emergency drain. In practice (reality), you simply will never get a reliable perfectly balanced full siphon.
@@WoodBob Yes, my Durso drain is under the water line in my sump, by around 1 inch. It is the huge amount of air (which is pulled down by the falling water) which causes a bubbling and splashing and hence noise.......not the water going down itself. I have tuned the hole at the top, air valve etc. Those things help reduce noise in the overflow...which I have little to start with anyway.
By they way, from whatever I have read so far, Herbie does not have a dry e-drain...it needs a trickle down the e-drain to function. Why does the e-drain need to be dry is the question still remaining in my mind :-) Noise? Slime buildup? IDK.
Yes this is one of the issues with a Durso - noise from falling water.
If the emergency drain pipe is the same size as the primary full siphon pipe in a Herbie, then if a small trickle of water is going down that drain, if it was called upon to take over as a full-siphon, it would not have the capacity to become a full siphon.
If it was a smaller pipe size, then it would never be able to act as an emergency drain, dry or not.
If the pipe size was larger, then it could take a trickle and also act as an emergency drain.
Great system, thanks for the clear demonstration!
Could the two drain lines be joined in a tee for a sump with 3 inputs? Or would this interfere with tuning each overflow via the gate valves? Seems like they will have minimal flow and if the sump water can’t overflow the tank it should be safe. So it’s just a matter of doing so would still allow each overflow siphon to find a level.
The 2 full siphon drains could not because they run at full siphon unless you tee'd them into a drain that could handle the flow. The trickle/open channel drains could with no issues.
I know this video is old. But could I do this in my 24" cube and just use 2 drains instead of 4?
Are both the drains in the same corner? If so, you could easily do just 2. Each side is totally independent of the other. You'd still go over the back for the return however.
@@WoodBob Thank you! Yes, both drains are in the same spot/corner. What is the point of having the open channel?
There is no chance of 100% balancing a full siphon drain to where it both doesn't drain too much, creating flushing, or drain too little, flooding the tank. The open channel provides the tuning capabilities where you run your return flow just slightly higher than what is necessary to maintain a full siphon. The open channel ideally will have just a trickle flowing but if you were to have more, it would be able to handle it as well.
@@WoodBob Ahhh that makes perfect sense! Thanks for the video!!
wow very cool setup. Wish you were my neighbor so i could check this out! lol
how big are the holes drill in top of return need to be thx you sorry to ask so many questions my first sump dont want to flood room
If you mean the main siphon standpipe, 1/4" or larger should be fine. It is just an air-entry hole to allow water to flow properly.
@@WoodBob thx you so much
I recently got a 112g aquarium with dual overflow towers and my plan for plumbing it was going to use the bean animal method by plumbing the two towers together. One tower would house an emergency along with a durso overflow while the other tower would have the full siphon. I'm tempted to copy your set up however.
I also considered that design but my fear was not enough water in the open channel drain to keep that tower from becoming stagnant. And if running the full siphon in one and the open channel in the other it would be a lot harder to get the drains balanced.
robc The rest of my fittings are coming next weekend but I'm going to try connecting the two towers with a full siphon on one side while the open/emergency overflows in the other tower. I'll give it a try and I figure worst case scenario I can just close the valve between the two towers, add the needed hole for another overflow and then go with your method. I'll let you know how it goes. ;)
do i need to hook up return line just like this to work
You can hook it up any way it works for you. Since both the drain and returns are now being used as drains you'll have to work out some sort of over-the-back return.
Would a check valve on the return pipe toward the top eliminate the possibility of the return becoming a full siphon in case one of the u-lines got knocked down?
Eliminate is subjective! Theoretically, it could. But I don't like relying on anything that could fail. Check valves are highly unreliable in an aquarium environment especially a saltwater setup. The easiest way to prevent a siphon is to drill a hole just beneath the water surface on the return line which will break the siphon once exposed to the air. On my setup the returns are just under the surface and my sump tank can take anything that would siphon down until the tips are exposed and the siphon breaks.
how tall is pvc pipe in overflows
I've been researching Herbie overflows, and even did one, but I'm having trouble understanding the "open channel". Is it completely empty as if it was an emergency drain in a standard Herbie?
The open channel exists because it isn't possible to maintain a full-siphon without a little water running into another pipe to even (tune) things out. There will always be a little water trickling into the open channel.
I copied this for my 535 lt. marine tank and I turnover more than 4000 litres per hour (via twin Aqua Medic Eco Runner 6000 pumps . It is now TOTALLY silent and restores quickly after power cut. My tank uses 40mm piping and gate valve, but apart from that the setup is the same. Takes a little bit of trial and error to get the perfect result. Start with balancing the flow with the valve then adjust the height of your overflow pipe to get the best results. It's really weird that the tank makes NO sound and the loudest sound in the lounge is the ticking of a clock!
Nice setup. Thanks for sharing.
How tall are pipes in overflows & far do they need to be from top of overflows thx you
There is no set depth. The important thing is the full siphon needs to be at least 1/2" below the open channel so that it runs at full siphon and then slowly rises to trickle through the open channel. The height of your open channel determines the water level in the weir. The higher it is, the less noise the water will make as it flows into the weir from the aquarium.
@@WoodBob Ok thx you so much
What about the auto top off? Won't it continue to refill your pump area?
When running this is at equilibrium. The auto-top-off works as designed. water level in the return chamber drops a little and is filled which does not affect siphon operation.
@@closewatcher8586 Actually what i meant was something else. As you simulate your blockage your auto top off will run until it runs out of water. This will overflow your main tank. Worst case scenario. I think emergency drain is a better idea as the plumbing is kept dry and only used in case of main line blockage. Unlike yours, my tank only has one big drain with a gate valve and a smaller emergency drain. My overflow tower is not even halfway full so there is some room for extra water there as well.
Ah ok I see what you mean. If a blockage occurs up to 10 additional gallons could be added to the entire tank volume from the overflow tank. I did take this into consideration and I do think my setup could manage an additional 10 gallons, however, I did not test that scenario. The odds of that happening are remote since both drains would need to clog at the same time which is highly unlikely. I would test that scenario but this tank has since been sold not to be replaced. I am concentrating on just the one marine tank also seen in the video (as a seahorse breeding tank).
@@closewatcher8586 Excellent. I just got back into this hobby after having a disaster. Thankfully my tank is on the ground level with floor tiles. I had to replace my bottom pane of glass that developed a small crack due to my mistake of over tightening bulkheads.A tiny very slow drip developed. Thankfully I did not have that much in the tank at that time. I only lost two maroon clownfish and a big blue tang. I was kind of suspecting a disaster but was too busy to properly fix it. My mistake.
Do you have a parts list for some of the items in your plumbing?
I'm want to plumb my 125 the same. I'm ordering 1" ABS bulkheads for the large drains and 3/4" bulkheads for the small drains. What size pipe did you use for these? Anything holding them in the bulkhead like a rubber seal?
The 1" and 3/4" pipes in the overflow compartments are just sitting in the bulkhead. The large one is sitting in friction fit and the smaller one is sitting friction fit in a threaded to slip adapter. At the time I could not get a slip to slip bulkhead so I got a slip to threaded and use that adapter. It is not necessary to attach these as they do not need to be water tight and you want to be able to remove them easily for maintenance.
Do you remember the overall height you made both drains including the elbows or does it just need to be close?
It doesn't matter. The open channel (smaller one) just needs to be higher than the larger one (full siphon) so that it will slowly drift up to it. When your pump is off, the level of the lower pipe will be where the water drains down to though.
just curious? did you have a problem with your evaporation rate in your sump? where does the water level drop? it seems like the last chamber, where the pump.
Yes, I lose about 2-3 gallons a day to evaporation. I have an ATO (Auto-top-off) on the tank (Tunze Osmolator). I plan on making a new video that shows this setup is still safe/flood-proof using the safeguards built into the Tunze to prevent too much water from being added to the tank in the event of a blockage.
Hey bob I have the same tank and I want to re arrange my drains exactly like urs! 😅 you think you can give me dimensions on how tall the pipes are I can do the return myself I just wanna copy your set up as I feel like mine ain’t doing so good 😅 thanks! 😊
Great video, thanks. Whats the tank look like now?
this video was perfect, i was looking for a bean style setup with this type of tank. my question is, how long did you cut the 2 sets of pipes you installed inside the drain, looks like a 3/8 or 1/2" hole on top also, ty.
I am not quite sure how long those were but you can get a general idea from the video. As long as the full siphon is below the open channel, you'll be fine.
Hi How long you normally turn on the sump ! ?
The sump runs continuously. Is is part of the aquarium filtration system.
Hey Bob here's another question. Wanted to know why you didn't put any type of Strainer screen or something over the Siphon holes to prevent snails etc. from getting into the plumbing? I'm trying to decide if using one would be a good idea. Thanks!
Sorry I meant a strainer cover over the actual siphon plumbing. Not a cover over the overflow housing.
This is a good question Mike! I did have a cover over each weir which prevented fish from jumping in. But there was probably room for a snail to get through the cracks. My snails were all too big to get into those cracks. It is not a bad idea though.
Yep - same thing. I see no issues putting a strainer on the siphon openings.
I'm thinking of doing this as it looks great can you tell me the measurements you have for the piping. thx
What's the advantage over using the standard megaflow kit?
The standard kit is a Durso style drain which is not full-siphon and somewhat noisy not to mention has relatively low flow and tank turnover rate. Durso drains have largely been replaced in the industry by full-siphon style drains such as Herbie and Bean drains.
What is the advantage of this over the way the overflow tank was designed?
MUCH higher flow rate and dead silent.
@@WoodBobok. Thanks.
I like your design, the only concern I would have would be something that could clog those small air holes you have on the overflows. Snails or algae could clog that and prevent proper draining.
Hello WoodBob. I have the same exact tank and am getting ready to do the plumbing as you have designed here. The sump I have chosen has two inputs that go through the filter socks and a third that can be configured. My plan is to have each siphon feed the filter socks. Can I combine the plumbing of the open channels, since they are "trickling" compared to the siphons, into a single drain without impacting performance?
TIA
Yes that is a great idea!
What fitting did you say you don’t need for the 3/4 open channel where you drilled the hole?
Use slip (glue) connection bulkheads and simply set the drains into place without gluing. This allows for easy removal for maintenance. I use keg lube on all gaskets just be sure not to over-tighten (hand tight only).
My tank only has 1 hole in each overflow so would I be fine just doing the full siphon instead of having both the pipes?
No you will not be able to balance it out. It will either run too fast and "flush" or it will run too slow starving your return pump. The extra pipe is critical for balancing the full siphon. You might be able to run a full siphon in one weir and use the other one to balance. I have never tried that but it should work in theory! Good luck!
I have a 8ftx2ftx2ft and plan on using this idea,
Im thinking 2x 32mm overflows one full siphon and one open channel what would be a good lph pump for that number
I just acquired a 75g with a megaflow. Do you keep the 1inch fully open and tune the 3/4? Or the other way around?
I use the 1" as the full siphon but it doesn't matter you could use either one. Just remember the full siphon stand pipe needs to be lower than the open channel so the extra water slowly rises up and trickles down the open channel.
How does the full siphon re establish if it drains below the opening. Wouldnt air get stuck in it?
The siphon is fully automatic since it relies on water being pumped up into the tank. There is no real "starting" of the siphon. As soon as the flow starts, the siphon starts. When it starts, any air is pushed out. If the water should fall below the full siphon stand-pipe (like if the pipe loses flow for whatever reason), water will still drain (slower flow) until the water level gets above the siphon again and then the siphon starts. This process will repeat in a "flush" cycle until the return water volume is increased or the full siphon drain rate is decreased (with the valve). You will frequently see this flush effect in Durso style drains when people push too much return water in an attempt to get higher flow.
Morning Bob. So I have my tank running for couple days and notice aome things and want to see what you think. I have a little stream a water coming out of the emergency drains is this normal to have and if so does that pipe go into the sump below water line so it's quiet. Also I have my flow pretty High I think which I kind of want because I have random flow generators on my returns and want those to create flow, but since flow is high I have a little more noise coming from my overflows but it's simply because of that fast flow. What do you think? I habe the mdp-15000 pump which I know you don't like but have it cranked up to 75 out of 100. This is on a 220 gallon tank with 4 large 1" returns and a 1-1/4" return feed pipe to those returns.
Yes this is fine because it is not an emergency drain it is the open channel used to balance the full siphon. There is no way to keep a full siphon going exactly so some water must trickle through the open channel. I have mine just below the water level into the sump so it is silent.
If the noise is from the weir it is probably just the drop from water running into the weir. There isn't much you can do about that accept maybe raise your open channel stand-pipe as far as it will go (and still be 1/2 under water).
Sounds like it is working great! 🙂
Good informational video. Thanks
Do the openchannels drain water? Or are they just used for emergency’s?
They drain a small "trickle" of water and help to balance the full siphon channel. There is no emergency channel in my setup.
Can you do a tank update
Super video!
I am running a 125 double corner flow in my barn. I don’t care about water noise. Is there any other reason than noise that straight downtubes to the sump wouldn’t work in lieu of the siphon 180’s?
The main design advantage of running at full siphon is increased flow through the sump. That it is also whisper quiet is really just an added benefit.
@@WoodBob Thanks for the reply. Do you adjust the level with the full siphon gate valves?
Correct. Get it going at full siphon, then slowly close the full siphon gate valve until the water rises to the open channel and just barely trickles. The open channel gate valves are not needed during normal operation I have them strictly for maintenance reasons.
with an overflow system like this , is the suction strong enough generated by the siphon effect due to the overflow water?
Strong enough for what? The flow rate for this setup is very high about as high as you can get for these sized pipes.
Another question for ya Bob. In your sump does the first glass baffles after where your drains come in go all the way to the bottom of sump so water has to go over or do you have the glass baffles raised a little? And then the last glass baffles does it go to the bottom as well?
Lastly the gate valves on the overflow pipe is it absolutely needed or can I just plumb it directly into sump? Thanks!
I do not have any path under the baffles or a bubble trap. I have 3 separate compartments and water flows only over those baffles.
You do not need any valve on the overflow pipe. I have it only for maintenance. The full siphon does need a valve though.
You could use this method with a single overflow right??
Very impressive setup and instructions. Can I do this setup for a 225 Gallon tank?
Yes. Any tank with built-in overflows will benefit from this setup.
ive got a 220ga aqueon tank fresh water with the jabeo 6000 dual overflows into a sump .... im getting a flush every so often from each side ive tried tuning with valves with no luck id greatly appreciate your help or suggestions! its my first time having a tank this large with overflows ive read an read but cant seem to figure out the flushing
Flushing means you have too much return water. Put a valve on your return pump and crank it back a bit or else set your pump to a lower speed. Full siphons do not have this issue but Durso style drains do. There is only so much water they can flow and then they flush.
robc thank you i will give this a try i just have a ball valve do you suggest a gate valve like you have or doesnt really matter? also as far as the the 1" bulkhead return pipe should my pvc be larger than the bulk head and use a bushing to reduce back down to 1"? thanks for the quick response!
If you have a Jabeo 6000 pump you can reduce the flow with its controller. If not, then a gate or ball valve will work (gate is better). I don't think for the return water it matters if you have a larger going down to a smaller pipe with a bushing (drains can benefit from this setup). I would just use what works. 1" is what you should be using with a 1" bulkhead.
You can avoid any chance of getting dry running pump by adding a float switch. Being that you have a dc pump, a boat bilge switch can be wired right in.
That is a great idea thanks! That Jebao pump failed I am back to my reliable eheim.
Do you have how to plans on building this? it really cool and I would like to do this to our 120 Aqueon tank.
Sorry Kim I don't have any plans other than this video. Really it is just plumbing though. As long as you are close to this design everything should work great.
Just so I'm clear this tank comes from the manufacturer drilled with the overflow boxes?
Correct. It comes exactly like you see it.
@@WoodBob can this exact setup be done on any tank? I built a 300 gallon plywood tank and haven't figured out my filtration yet. I'm using a 75 gallon tank for a sump.
Yeah you sure could this would be great for a plywood build. You'll need at least 1 weir but the rest is the same.
Really nice video and information. I subbed your channel.
I have a 90g and I want to do a full siphon but not sure if it will work because I only have one overflow
It will work fine. On a dual overflow each side is independent of the other.
Great video! Have a 125 that am going the same route with, but will use the two 3/4 returns as the siphons since they should be about 1500 gph combined. And the two 1" should gravity feed any extra needed. Was planning on a Jabao dcp-6500. Considering you used the 1"er's for siphon was wondering how much your valves dialed back the flow...
any concerns with using this setup on a basement sump?
If you mean the sump is in the basement and the tank on the floor above it I don't see any real concerns. I would test the fail scenario since the amount of water that will be in the pipes could be enough to flood in the event of a pump outage.
I have to jebao 12000 on the same tank.... how much flow will two 3/4” full siphons be? I’d rather just keep my 1” mega flows how they are and just modify the 3/4” returns to become full siphons. Thank you sir
I just bought a 180 gallon tank with a single overflow. 2 bulkhead in the overflow, a 1 inch and a 2 inch. Up til watching this video, I was planning on running a die so in the 2 inch and a single return in the 1 inch split into 2 lock lines. My return chamber doesn't have cut-outs for return (lock) lines. I was trying to figure out the best way to plumb this. Now that I've watched this, I'm thinking my best option is to go with a full siphon setup like yours and running my return behind the tank as you've done and over the back rim. Would this in fact be a better option with a single overflow?
For sure a full siphon is a better option! Over the back returns are much better and allow greater placement of return flow like I did with multiple returns across the top.
How would you handle the 1 inch and 2 inch bulkhead in the overflow? Would you step the 2 inch down to a 1 inch at the bulkhead to keep all pvc 1 inch?
No it doesn't really matter what size the pipe is as long as it fits the fittings. The bulkhead holes will dictate what size pipe to use I suggest not changing the size but I doubt it matters either way. I know there is a durso video out that talks about using bigger size pipe and necking it down but this is a full siphon so it doesn't matter if the pipe changes size or not.
Really nice job on this!
Do you think this set up would work using a canister filter instead of a sump?
A canister filter is a closed system and does not work on a siphon principle it uses a pump to circulate the water. I don't think it would work.
Got both canisters plumbed together, one side works as it should but as the one drops water level inside the overflow, the other side just stays the same. Maybe because of the intake is the same as the return flow? Thanks for any help or suggestions
Quick question, should I run a filter sock on each drain or just on the two main drains?
This is a good question. I do not run the open channel through a filter sock, just the full-siphon channels. However, you could. I don't think it is necessary. This drain when operating efficiently only carries a trickle of water.
@@WoodBob Hey Rob, quick question for you. I'm setting this up for the first time and trying to figure out how much room I need to leave in the sump to handle the water drain from the overflows. Do you know how much water is held in each overflow chamber or at least a good guess? I want to maximize the amount of water my system holds. Thanks in advance for your help.
The overflows on my tank probably hold about a gallon each when running maybe 2 gallons if they were totally full. Keep in mind more than what is in the overflow will flow back when the pump is off. What is in the pipes and what is above the weir opening will also flow back.
robc thanks Rob and yes I was thinking about the pipes and above the weir as well. Why do you think is the best way to determine the amount of room I should leave in the sump? I’m sure there is an easy answer to this, I just can’t think of it right now. Should I just fill the tank up and then test in increments turning the pump off and letting everything drain? And then repeat until water level finds the perfect point?
That is exactly what I would do. Only install your return section divider and see how high you can go with the water and still be flood-proof. Once you determine that, put in your glass at that height.
Also add a simple mechanical float switch that would kill the return pump if the water level falls too low. Would save your return pump from burning up.
This is a good idea. But not sure how this could be incorporated to actually electrically disable the pump. The Tunze includes 2 float switches for normal operations. I'll investigate a float switch that can cut power to the entire mechanism. Thanks!
Which pump is that and how much head? Just wondering how much you're actually flowing through there.
This is the Jabeo DC-6000 with about 4 feet of head. It is rated at around 1500gph. I am very happy with the Jabeo pumps I also have a DC-9000. Those are 1" drains so will run around 2400gph each at full siphon maximum. My estimate is they are at about 25% of max capacity each (600gph), or slightly over 1200gph total flow for both drains.
Does the water flow down the open channel as well
Yes it has to have a small trickle down the open channel. There really is no way you will ever get a full siphon drain exactly balanced. You need to have a smidgen more than full siphon. The open channel takes that slight extra trickle to balance the system.
I just got a 180 gallon I have four 1” Holes with that be in the flow doing it the same way you did?
Yep - you are golden that setup should work great. Set up the exact same way. 1 tube in each weir for full siphon and 1 for the open channel. Return over the top.
Great setup. How did you determine the height of your siphon pvc?
robc, any chance you tell me what kind of fittings you used?
They are 1" and 3/4" PVC schedule 40 fittings. In addition to 45's and 90's I also have some PVC valves and PVC compression fittings.
@@WoodBob can you provide some links of the suplier? thanks
All fittings were purchased from either Home Depot or Amazon.
What are you going to do for top off? Are you going to have a reservoir? Just curious because if all 4 drains do some how clog, don’t see it happening, and your return section becomes dry, won’t the ATO empty itself?
I do have an ATO (Tunze) and have tested with it. Even when it is full (5 gallons) there isn't enough water to flood the top tank.
Hi Bob - I realize this is several years old, but wondering how the Jebao pump is holding up in your system. Too, why did you modify the Megaflow/Durso to a Herbie, were you not getting enough drain GPH? I am setting up a 210 that has the megaflow system and if I'm calculating the flow correctly, with the two drains I should have more than enough to support turning the tank 10x per hour. Just curious, but I do like your modification and would definitely use it if needed, ~Tim
The Jebao has failed along with every single other Jabao product I owned (pumps, wave makers, etc). I replaced it with the bulletproof Eheim and will never purchase Jebao again. The conversion was done primarily for noise control. The Herbie is dead silent. But add to that the increased flow from going full siphon and it's a big win. Thanks Tim good luck!
Thank you. What GPH Eheim are you running with this setup
The 1262 ~ 900gph.
Great video! Question...I'm going to do this to my 90 as well..what happens if the the full siphon clogs? The other drain becomes full siphon? I got new bulkheads to fit for Both my drains to be 1"..is that ok? (Both holes in bottom of tank are same size, apparently they didnt used to be in older models)
If just 1 full siphon clogged, it is possible that the open channel would go full siphon. I don't think it would carry the load though but the other open channel might be able to take up the slack in that scenario. But the design doesn't depend on this for safety (from flooding). I'll have to experiment with this and see what it does thanks for the idea!
@@WoodBob Thanks! just asking because I'm going to do this with only one overflow, but I guess it doesnt matter what the 2nd drain does because compared to the durso single drain it came with..its much safer just to have a second drain at all.
Ah ok - I see part 2 of your question. With just 2 holes both being 1", if the full siphon of the 2 failed, the other might go full siphon but it would not be able to carry all the load due to not having an open channel. In this case it would probably flush until you realized something was wrong and corrected it.
Great video, I love the design
Hey Bob, another one here - You have gate valves on both the Full Siphon & overflow siphon on each side. You mentioned that the overflow siphon valve is just there to turn off/on if needed. So in that case do we even need a valve on it or can it be an open pipe right into the emergency section of the sump? Does that valve you have on it now serve any other tuning capability or simply just on/off?
Nope it is totally unnecessary.
This is a great set-up (and a very well done video) and I think I will do the same with my 90 gallon. Thank you! One question though, do you find you have to top-off your sump frequently due to evaporation? The last chamber in your sump (where the return pump is) is necessarily small (so you don't flood your display tank in the event of a drain clog), but I'm concerned that evaporation loss would mean you were constantly topping off the sump.
I have an ATO (auto top off) unit (Tunze) that keeps it in check. This tank loses 1-2 gallons per day in evaporation.
amazing work., what's the size of the sump?
40 Gallon Breeder
so the old return line size is 3/4" and the full siphon is 1" correct? there is no reason you can't run this setup on a single overflow tank like a 90 gallon right? I have a trigger systems ruby 36 sump, and a jebao DCP8000, pretty sure I'll run it dry before flooding as well.
Yeah it would be identical but you'd lose some of the redundancy of the 2nd weir. Not an issue if designed properly like you stated that it won't overflow no matter what direction should stop.
Interesting video im wondering do the full syphon need the double elbow or can they just be straight pipes ?
Straight pipe is fine but the double elbow makes sure it doesn't start a vortex from the surface and ingest air.
nice setup.
Nice! and quiet. Why no check valve?
Thanks! Check valve where? There is no place where a check valve would do anything accept get gummed up. They are not needed on a properly designed system.
+robc right on top of the return pump. so when you shut off your pump to feed your fish the water doesn't drain back into the tank. it will just start right back up. I've never seen a tank in 20 years or so of doing aquariums not have a check valve on the return. Nor have I ever have one gum up or even need to be cleaned.
Thanks for the comments! Typically in the Saltwater world, check valves are not used. On this style return where the siphon starts automatically, there is no need to keep the return lines primed with water by using a check valve. Tanks I have seen with check valves usually "need" the check valves and should the valve fail, the sump tank would flood, and hence the reason for the check valve. As you have seen in this video, there is no chance of a flood.
For an air line I would agree with you that they benefit from a check valve, but for a drain that is fully automatic, they really do not add anything to the setup. In saltwater tanks, the growth of marine life inside the check valve has a good chance of rendering it inoperable anyway.
With my setup, I count on that extra volume in the pipes and the tank to drain back into my sump when the return pump is turned off for my water changes. Without it, I do not have enough water in the sump for the volume I replace and would have to remove water from the display tank. If you look on the side of the sump, you will see black lines which indicate the water level when the pump is off and water has drained back and in 5 gallon increments thereafter.
I forgot to ask. How far from the overflow grids/top should we have the top of the open channel? Looks maybe 2"? How much lower should we make the full siphon? Thanks again.
a check valve would only be beneficial if the drain stack pipe and weir both failed simultaneously, better chance at hitting the lottery....
Hey ,
Great video.. question: where did you get your shut off valves from and also your connectors?
The PVC gate valves and compression fittings from Amazon and the rest from Home Depot.
@@WoodBob thank you! I couldn’t find the valves at first. I left out the (gate) parts😃 thanks a lot.