I am a physics student and I just bought a 2005 honda civic hybrid with a struggling IMA. I checked your video out because of curiosity and i will not be trying this at home, but I just have to say how freakkng cool this is!! Thank you!
I bought a 2003 manual HCH 6 years ago with 120k on it and the IMA error light aleady on. I am now at 212k miles. I have never touched the hybrid battery. In the first 5 years I wouldn't have thought there was any issue if the error light wasn't on. Today my IMA still functions, but in the last year about two times a week I'll start my car and the IMA will be disabled. I'm able to reset it by clearing the error codes with my $20 OBD bluetooth scanner (more convenient than disconnecting the 12v). The car has otherwise been extremely reliable and saved me a ton of money when you factor purchase cost, maintenance costs, and fuel efficiency. Maybe my experiance is an outlier, but it makes me wonder how many of these cars were dumped or had their expensive batteries changed as soon as that error light came on when they could have functioned for a long time without any noticable issue.
interesting points ,if anyone else is searching for how to recondition a battery try Battery Recovery Tactics ( battery.RecoveryTactics.com ) ? Ive heard some awesome things about it and my brother in law got amazing success with it.
@@germainrodriguez5230 not very good. I used a different method because I didn't want to buy the rc chargers. It helped a little bit, but the light is still on
Hey Mike, I am having issues with my 04 civic hybrid again so I am back looking for ideas. The replacement pack I installed four years ago worked pretty well with only minor issues when I would leave the car sit for months at a time. I started using a solar trickle charger to keep the 12 volt battery charged and that seemed to help but recently I completely lost the entire IMA system. Fortunately the car does drive fine without it but the battery light comes on when it is at idle and I am worried that even with a new fully charged battery that it might not be reliable enough. I understand these cars can be driven with the system deactivated by unplugging the "A" connector and turning off the breaker? At least that is what I understood from the video I saw. As I have experienced the car actually does work ok with the IMA system not working but that battery light has me worried that it is not charging the 12 volt battery while diving even when the light is off. I learned that a bad stick can shut the system off so I thought I would investigate that first since I have most of the sticks out of my old battery that I could probably steel one from. Got the system out last night and pulled both ends and all the 10mm bolts. I check voltage on each stick and they were all over 7.3 with most around 7.4 volts. This now has me scratching my head as to what shut the system off. I understand the temperature sensors could fail and shut the system down so that is where I am headed now. Any advice on how to test these or what else to check?
Say my sticks looks good, but the voltage of each sticks is about 3.5 volts below the minimal voltage. Can I revive the sticks or are they useless now?
I know another viewer asked however can you purchase individual "sticks" if we are unable to deep cycle or reverse polarity for a few moments? Thank you very much.
Hi ,I got a Honda Civic Hybrid 2004and got with the Hybrid battery. I would like to ask where can we get the battery stick. I would be very grateful if you can help me and let me know where to buy.Tq
check out my article at www.homepower.com/articles/vehicles/hybrids/rebuilding-hybrid-vehicle-battery-pack - the story is a bit old now and I use a different method too, but this should get your car rolling again.
@@michael47lamb Hi Mike! The link above doesn't work, the Homepower site is archived, so could you tell which year and month was the article published? Thanks!
Good video. However I do not agree that HCH is not a good car to have. It depends on how you intend to drive it and if you like tinkering on batteries. I have had several of them and yes the IMA pack can be annoying, but they are not that bad to deep cycle with the right tools at hand. However if the car is going to be driven mainly in the city then I agree that this is NOT a good choice for everyone. City driving is death for aging IMA packs especially in hot weather (batteries in heneral HATE being over 100F.) HCH packs can be deep cycled and so fixed repeatedly but this does take some time. I can fix mine in a couple days using a slightly different method than you used. However HCH is a good highway car, just rather small for driving long distance.
I have a 2001 Insight I bought this summer and now as the weather has turned colder which usually from my experience triggers weakened batteries near failure to die. The IMA and engine light on mine came on yesterday so I'm looking into the cheapest way to get the most from this system while learning the ins and outs of hybrids. Is there a way to use a lithium ion replacement battery pack or is that out of the capabilities of this system? Also, can anyone provide a reconditioning service of my current battery cells if I mail them, at a price in comparison to purchasing new cells that is worth considering?
@@terrafirma9328 lithium is out of the picture without some major electrical engineering involved & alot more money than the car is worth. From my experience rebuilding insight, civic & prius batteries I would say your best bet is just buy a reconditioned battery online (amazon or ebay) from a reputable seller. They are not worth the trouble trying to rebuild or recondition without lots of experience & tools. Just buy a reconditioned battery with a decent warranty
@@terrafirma9328 Old Honda hybrids used NiMh cells and those charge very differently from a Li cell. There is no direct replacement. If your IMA light just came on, and never gave you problems before, or the pack has been replaced some time ago, then reconditioning may be the cheapest way of putting things right again. How well a reconditioning will work for you mainly depends on how beat the cells are presently.
So I took out the battery pack and measured all 20 sticks voltage, they are between 3-4 volts, so they are very low (each sticks have 6 cells) and they should be at least 7.2 volts minimum. Do I need to revive them? If so, how to I revive them? Or do I start using the balance charger to cycle them with no problem? Or are they useless now? In short, do I continue using the balance charger or do I need to boost up the voltage on each stick before reconditioning them?
That is very strange that they are all that low, I would drain all the sticks and then trickle charge them back up to about 8 volts. And then see which ones hold close to that voltage for a few days. Then see which ones discharge the fastest and discard those. And KEEP the ones that hold the highest voltage
excellent video John.,i am learning to do stuff like this for my 2006 HCH with the battery pack showing IMA light on the dash... i wonder where could i get those IMAX B6 charger and how much would it cost each?I appreciate any advice so to get by..are the stick pretty much same as those from the recent ones like 2006 up to 2010?.The pack discharges and charges easily and worse is when i need more assist to climb mostly the pack is low level to do its work ..My AUTO STOP is no longer showing in the dash ..Thanks looking forward to hear from you..
I just started with the project of repair the battery and found one dead stick similar to the 4:57 min. I used a 40 amps charger for some intervals of 10 seconds 4 times. Hopping this resuscitate the stick....
@@michael47lamb I took out my the battery pack and all sticks shows around 3.5v. Can I revive it since it is below the minimal voltage or do I use the balance charger to cycle it?
@@LemonJuiceGV That is not good news. If I were you I would first try putting a couple sticks on the ImaxB6 and see what the charger thinks of them. One of two things will happen once charging starts: The charger will maybe scream at you a warning of some sort (read the screen message) OR if you are in luck the charger will simply recharge the discharged stick. NiNh cells can sometimes look dead when all they need is a recharging and a few deep cyclings to come back from the "dead."
I have a 2001 Insight I bought this summer and now as the weather has turned colder which usually from my experience triggers weakened batteries near failure to die. The IMA and engine light on mine came on yesterday so I'm looking into the cheapest way to get the most from this system while learning the ins and outs of hybrids. Is there a way to use a lithium ion replacement battery pack or is that out of the capabilities of this system? Also, can anyone provide a reconditioning service of my current battery cells if I mail them, at a price in comparison to purchasing new cells that is worth considering?
Companies that do pack rebuilding do exist. Check around online and you will quickly find at least a couple. Prices for the entire pack vary a great deal, I see anywhere from 1600 to 4000 . You can also just buy the "sticks" and replace them all yourself if you have some mechanical skills, and patience. Just the sticks costs about $40 each, you need 20 of them. Sticks this cheap are generally made in China and quality can vary a lot.
All of your sticks are Chinese aftermarket. None were original Honda. Likely from the now defunct Hybrid Battery Repair. Skip to 14:38 for all you need to know.
Yes you can. What I learned in this whole experience is the computer acknowledges the voltage relative to the other cells extremely closely. If there is any variance it will set your (red triangle) warning lights off. All the voltages have to be almost identical
Does anyone know how much capacity leakage is acceptable? I charge the cell to full, wait a month and charge it again. I have results from 1600mAh to 6800mAh.
This process takes a few weeks as the vid shows. There are faster methods too. The MPG goes up to a normal level (44+) again and the car functions as it should for months.
how is the car now when it comes to get battery? My friend has one and the battery is "dead". I want to help him but I also want to know it will last. thanks
Reconditioning a IMA pack is not that difficult, I see the effects on my project cars last anywhere from 3 months to 12 months before the IMA light comes on again. How long depends on the shape the cells are to start with and how the car gets driven.
I can tell you that all what you did with your bad batteries is wasting time. They are not going to last long. 250 for battery that's cheap. That means you bought a core. Thank you for your video.
I'm going to agree that all you did was buy a used car battery which is not going to last that long and end up having car problems in a couple months again. if you plan on keeping the car you may as well just buy a brand new battery pack
@@michael47lamb thanks. I already did the switch out about two months ago. At the end it cost me about $1700. Way too much! But now my daughter has a good car. Another case of buying something I'm unfamiliar with. Lesson learned.
BB has a good warranty I think. Read up on it and follow whatever they want to keep it in effect. Hopefully the car will go for a long time now. However if the IMA light comes on again I strongly urge you to deep cycle the cells immediately to prevent more damage to them (assuming the BB warranty is now longer any good then). Early preventive deep cycling can keep these cars running for 300 000 miles!
Hi Ando, I thought it would be a good idea to warn you about the CVT transmissions in HCH and Insight cars. They really need to have the CVT fluid changed a lot more frequently than the manual says to. If you are not sure how old the fluid in your car is then you really need to change it asap or the trans is likely to destroy itself, a really common issue with Honda hybrids of this vintage. DIY it for about $50 or have a dealer do it for $400. It is not hard to do either. Just critical. If the trans is already slipping a little, but driveable, then changing the fluid will help, though a trans repair is probably on your menu soon. Pal of mine fixed his for $500 in parts alone. He did the work himself. A trans shop wanted $5000.
This is really interesting. I have found the same to be true. Also it seems that only the Honda fluid stopped the slipping or chatter. I have changed the fluid recently and it is still slipping a bit so if that can be remedied I would be interested in learning how. It cannot be that heavy to get out (I must be nuts). My transmission went out a few years back and had to be replaced. I had a used one installed and it cost around $2200. I would not want to do that again. The battery is one thing, the transmission is another.
I've been doing this for 1 1/2 years... using 160 used batteries and this is not a long term fix. Once these batteries get old they will fail again. It only takes one cell thats 1/10 of a volt off and the IMA will go on. Just buy a new set for $1,400.00 and fix the problem.
I typically see the "new" packs work ok for about 4 years and then start having problems just like before. Also 1400 bucks is a lot of money to put into an old car that is worth about 1300 in my opinion. I find cheap civic hybrids and prius every week on craigslist 1000 to 2000 dollars. Also a car is a car and they all start having typical automotive problems along with hybrid pack issues. I like putting as little cash as possible in any used car since they are always money losing ventures usually.
Good question, I deep cycle my pack about every 6 months. The longest I have had one working without the ima light on was 11 months. How long the effects last depends on many factors though. Mainly how bad off the sticks were to start with.
It lasted a few months, I would strongly recommend avoiding these cars. Get a Toyota Prius they perfected the hybrid system way better. Much easier to work on it as well
I agree the Prius is a better design and the pack looks easier to work on, but a lot heavier to move. The next time I need an old fixer upper I am getting one of those, assuming I can find one that is not beat to crap at a low enough price.
I'm still confused. Do you buy new battery pack, discharge and recharge 3x and then put them back in order unless one heats up and rearrange them and the battery is ready? Why do you have to discharge and recharge them?
Charging and discharging a few times breaks up some of the nickle crystals that form on the plates in each cell. It is far from perfect but does help a lot to restore function to the cell. I typically see about 70% capacity returning. Sometimes more. The effects last for a few months to a few years. Depending on how beat the cells are to start with. Keep in mind doing this will NOT make the pack act like a new one would. It will make it act better though. If you intend to keep the car a long time and have no money for new cells then expect to do this process more than once a year, or two. I also do not see a lot wrong with the Chinese cells that are available cheap these days. For $38 each (you need 20 of them) you can have a fully functional pack. Find lots of sellers of these cells at Alibaba.
@@michael47lamb say if I buy the cells online and do the the same recharge n discharge. How would I know at what order they should be so one doesn't heat up?
@@LemonJuiceGV Where you place the any of the "sticks" (the cells are welded together in a series of 6 cells to make a stick) does not matter at all as long as all 20 sticks are performing in about the same way. It is always best to not mix poor sticks with new or good sticks, if you can avoid this. Mixing poor one with good ones will only result in a poorly performing pack. The reason for this is that all the cells (120 of them) are in series with each other. Any cell (or stick) that is not performing like the rest of them will "hold back" charging and discharging of the rest of the pack. This results in the cells getting unbalanced in their State of Charge (SOC) a lot faster. The computer in the car can sense this and send a IMA warning to your dash if it gets too far out of wack. Eventually the computer will simply refuse to turn on the pack at all and leave you stranded someplace.
I also want to mention that when buying new sticks online, it is not really necessary to deep cycle each new stick. If the stick really is "new" (and not a used one somebody had worked on before) then it should be clear enough of nickel crystals on the plates inside. Cycling new sticks is pretty much a waste of your time. Instead, fully charge each stick before installing it in the pack. This is so all the sticks will be at the same SOC from the start. Once the car has been using the pack for a few weeks you will get an idea how well the sticks are performing as a unit.
I have never been left sitting but my pack shuts off or I see no meter readings (charging/discharging) on the dash. I can still run my 04 but cannot rev over 3000 rpms. If I turn the car off and on (been doing that while driving lately) the system comes back on line and I can rev over 3000 rpms. It has started surging but I am done driving it until I get the replacement pack in. I will work on rebuilding or repairing the failing one once I have the replacement one in. Hope it clears up some of the issues.
Hi anyone i have built a 48 volt battery bank from a civic hybrid battery sticks i am looking for a 7s 48 volt BMS can anyone suggest one i need three of them
I have a honda civic ima 2004, i like that, i mean you need take a litle care of it, but after 6 years driving this thing my totals costs with Service and repairs was just 3000€ so i guess for 20 year old car, its realy good and yes i will take care longer for that car 😄💪🏼
I bought a 05 civic habrid I bought it for $800 box on the year 2010 but I never had a problem wit the IMA battery but one day I tried to meve it but it didn't go back and faward ,I pulled out the transmission and I fount out that the flywheel teeth were damaged so I decided to buy a new flywheel and problem solved.
I have to agree the prius is the very best in reliability as far as hybrids go. I have an accord ima what a doosy of a car when the battery goes south. The civic is a pile of crap as far as hybrids go the ecu and bcm are always in disagreement. You have to have a honda module you can get em off ebay and reflash the bcm so that the battery will take again. Once the battery goes dead the bcm will store an error in the memory tell you have it flashed which you can do yourself with an ebay honda module. Don't bother with the dealer its just money and headaches.
This the first I have heard about re-flashing the ECU. I installed my battery pack many years ago and did not have any problems with the ECU. I would not be surprised if do now since my pack is really giving me problems now. Are we talking about just clearing codes or something more in-depth.
Would have been nice if he cut out the 14:30 of talking... And just recommended not buying older Honda hybrids, I will run mine till it quits then throw it in the gutter and get another
That comment in the end to just not buy one of these cars is just killing me. After all that I was so excited to get mine straightened out and he just kills me buy saying without saying it that I should just give up one the car and look for something with less issues. I can say that I have had the car since 2006 or 7 and I am a bit tired of it. I have also put 340K miles on so we have spent a lot of quality time together LOL (it had 32K on it when I bought it. I really want to know what was keeping the check engine light on. I am also on my second battery (after market rebuild), second transmission and second head gasket, second set of catalytic converters (honda stock cats. they were not cheap)
Hi Robert. I am happy you are happy with your HCH. What year is it? Where did you buy your pack from? I am curious that someone assembled one that lasted so long. I have two '03's and it is a love/hate relationship for sure. I cant beat 52 MPG but the yearly (sometimes monthly) fiddling with batteries is a bit wearing. I have owned the first one since the article I wrote for Home Power magazine in 2009. The second one I got from a kid in DC that was scared of the IMA light being on (I got it for $1k and he was more than happy to sell it at that price. NO ONE else wanted it.) So I can honestly say I know a lot about the realities of owning a first gen HCH. Old cars get older in general and all sorts of things are wearing out, not just the IMA packs. So many car owners feel that pouring thousands into an old car that is worth maybe 1 or 2 thou is bad business. I agree with this school of thought. Usually a old car is a old car no matter what nifty features it has, and is worth that old car price. So unless you are interested in doing all the repair work yourself (most owners are not) sell the old hch and get something less messed up. New cars are very nice, at a price. lol It is remarkable you are getting such long life from a pack. That is very unusual. My first "Honda factory" rebuilt pack worked right for about a year. The second one worked 3 years (also Honda original) . Lifetime depends on many factors including how it is driven. I drive a lot at highway speeds. 240k on the first hch now. 170k on the second one (I switch between them to average out wear.) That is not to suggest that city driving is easier on a pack, it is most certainly NOT! City traffic is a fast death for NiMh cells in general. It puts a lot of heat and a huge imbalance into those 120 cells very quickly unless it is also followed up with a long high speed trip to recharge and hopefully cool down the cells well. This is especially true in hot weather. The Chinese factories these cells are made have a great deal of QC issues but once in awhile 120 really good cells get matched up together. I am sure this is more by accident than design. You got lucky with your pack. There is also the "love and fascination" factor to consider too. Personally I keep my two hch's because the car makers are too STUPID to see that there are many customers that do keep their cars a very long time, especially when the factories do not make ANYTHING that gets as impressive a MPG today... many years later! (are you Detroit and Japan factory owners reading this? I sure hope so!)
@@michael47lamb I keep putting money into the car because everything else works and its not really falling apart like old cars used to. I have keep a few cars now for more than 300k miles. At this point its kind of like a challenge to see how many miles I can get out it. I went on Craigs list looking for another car like you did so I could pull the battery and rebuild it while I kept driving mine. What I found was that there are a lot of these cars out there and some are in really good condition and may only need the battery. Prices ranged from several hundred to $4000. If I can find a good one for a low price with a standard transmission I might buy it. On the other hand, after what you said maybe I should think about something else. I find that having owned the car this long I feel like I at least know some of the issues and how to repair them. I am interested in trying to pull a motor or CV transmission. A standard transmission would probably be much easier to deal with. Where are you in DC. I am headed down there tomorrow to pick up my battery
@@robertbuehler4619 Hi Robert I am in Manassas about 30 miles west of DC. How about you try emailing me direct at michael 47 lamb at g mail company. Sorry for the way I wrote this but the online trolls and bots are clever with fishing out e mail online any more. Hope to see e mail from you soon. Now for any of you reading this that want to abuse my address: I deal harshly with abuse so beware.
The Imax is popular due to the knock-off versions being half the cost of a real SkyRC Imax. They are good only if your cells are not totally beat. Really "hard used" cells will not likely benefit from the discharge the Imax can do since the rate is capped at 1 amp. To get around that what I do these days is charge the cells with a Imax and then Discharge them with a automotive "carbon pile" battery load tester. This way I can discharge the cells a 50 amps or more and this does a good job of melting out any nickle filaments between the plates in the cells. It also allows me to get a feel for internal resistance in the cells and which ones get hot. Never use cells that get hot in your pack. There are lots of other charger/reconditioners out there but most have pretty much the same limitations as the Imax, they just cost a lot more.
@@michael47lamb I am wanting to recondition my cells and it seems like you have a decent amount of experience with that. What tools, as in the battery chargers and the automotive "carbon pile" battery load tester, should I be looking for? I looked for the Imax but didn't find any legit looking ones and I don't know the exact specs to look out for to find a different one. I have an older grid charger from Hybrid Automotive, but the battery was already pretty bad when I got the car and it is just keeping it running at this point. Also, is there a reputable place to buy new cells? I have seen some aftermarket packs that have "new and improved" cells, any info on that? Sorry for the wall of text, I have been thinking about doing this for a while and stumbled onto this video recently. Thanks!
@@Jonny_Dee_0 Hi. I have no trouble finding an assortment of chargers that can handle NiMh cells like in a Honda hybrid. SkyRC is one of the least expensive decent brands, though Triton is good too. Most of the others I have seen are much more expensive. The really cheap knock-offs will work too for a shorter amount of time. The last knock-off I had worked so-so for about a year before it died totally (from the first day it never did auto cycle like it should have and the seller gave me back my money $16 and never wanted it returned. lol.) The "carbon pile" load tester your want is generally something like my old "Sun Model Y". Do a google search on this term for pictures. The modern versions are very similar looking and do the same thing. I recently found one by Solar on Amazon for about $73, this was for another hybrid owner working on his Insight. Replacement cells (sticks) are another matter. There are a great many available online at a range of prices. Unfortunately there is no way to know what will work well and what is junk as they all look the same until you test them, or better yet, install them in the car. The best I can tell you about choosing new sticks is to ONLY buy NEW sticks as used ones are often VERY used and little different than what you already own. Try to also only buy from reputable companies with a warranty and return policy you can live with. Most companies like this are in California since all new sticks come from China these days. You can also try Alibaba for replacements. I see lots of sellers there, but have no idea what their differences may be. Also you are sending your money out of the country, never to be seen again usually. But these are the same sticks as what gets sold from California, so roll your dice and hope for the best. Prices range from $30 to $70 each. You usually get a price break if you buy 20 or more sticks. If you want to continue this conversation pls write to my editors at homepower.com and ask them to forward your request to me. Also check out my old article "rebuilding a hybrid car battery." Lots of decent info there even though it is a bit dated now. The editors know how to find me and are nice about forwarding requests to my inbox. I dont like posting my address online for obvious reasons. It is also not polite for me to dominate Mr Warrens page like this. Sorry John Caleb Warren!
hey ,if anyone else wants to discover how to recondition a battery try Jons Mender Guide (do a search on google ) ? Ive heard some interesting things about it and my co-worker got excellent success with it.
hi everyone ,if anyone else wants to discover battery fix try Jons Mender Guide (just google it ) ? Ive heard some extraordinary things about it and my mate got cool results with it.
I\'m not sure but ,if anyone else is searching for how to recondition batteries at home try Cypouris Renewal Guide Coach (do a search on google ) ? Ive heard some amazing things about it and my cousin got amazing success with it.
There are many components to battery reconditioning. One resource I discovered which successfully combines these is the Magic Mender Wizard (google it if you're interested) definately the most helpful info that I have ever seen. look at this unbelievable resource.
I am a physics student and I just bought a 2005 honda civic hybrid with a struggling IMA. I checked your video out because of curiosity and i will not be trying this at home, but I just have to say how freakkng cool this is!! Thank you!
I bought a 2003 manual HCH 6 years ago with 120k on it and the IMA error light aleady on. I am now at 212k miles. I have never touched the hybrid battery. In the first 5 years I wouldn't have thought there was any issue if the error light wasn't on. Today my IMA still functions, but in the last year about two times a week I'll start my car and the IMA will be disabled. I'm able to reset it by clearing the error codes with my $20 OBD bluetooth scanner (more convenient than disconnecting the 12v). The car has otherwise been extremely reliable and saved me a ton of money when you factor purchase cost, maintenance costs, and fuel efficiency. Maybe my experiance is an outlier, but it makes me wonder how many of these cars were dumped or had their expensive batteries changed as soon as that error light came on when they could have functioned for a long time without any noticable issue.
Same here. Still driving
Thanks, going to do my wife's '04 civic hybrid this Spring. Your video was very helpful.
interesting points ,if anyone else is searching for how to recondition a battery try Battery Recovery Tactics ( battery.RecoveryTactics.com ) ? Ive heard some awesome things about it and my brother in law got amazing success with it.
Nice video. I also picked up a cheap civic hybrid and the ima light is on. I think I am going to pull the battery and have a look at it
How did it turn out for you?
@@germainrodriguez5230 not very good. I used a different method because I didn't want to buy the rc chargers. It helped a little bit, but the light is still on
Hey Mike, I am having issues with my 04 civic hybrid again so I am back looking for ideas. The replacement pack I installed four years ago worked pretty well with only minor issues when I would leave the car sit for months at a time. I started using a solar trickle charger to keep the 12 volt battery charged and that seemed to help but recently I completely lost the entire IMA system. Fortunately the car does drive fine without it but the battery light comes on when it is at idle and I am worried that even with a new fully charged battery that it might not be reliable enough. I understand these cars can be driven with the system deactivated by unplugging the "A" connector and turning off the breaker? At least that is what I understood from the video I saw. As I have experienced the car actually does work ok with the IMA system not working but that battery light has me worried that it is not charging the 12 volt battery while diving even when the light is off.
I learned that a bad stick can shut the system off so I thought I would investigate that first since I have most of the sticks out of my old battery that I could probably steel one from. Got the system out last night and pulled both ends and all the 10mm bolts. I check voltage on each stick and they were all over 7.3 with most around 7.4 volts. This now has me scratching my head as to what shut the system off. I understand the temperature sensors could fail and shut the system down so that is where I am headed now. Any advice on how to test these or what else to check?
What recurring issues? Please elaborate as to why we should avoid this car. Thanks for your video, will be using this to rebuild me Insight battery.
Say my sticks looks good, but the voltage of each sticks is about 3.5 volts below the minimal voltage. Can I revive the sticks or are they useless now?
Back again. They are revived but the internal resistance was high so I had to water at least 7 month and then recondition them with 0.5 amps. C/D.
I know another viewer asked however can you purchase individual "sticks" if we are unable to deep cycle or reverse polarity for a few moments? Thank you very much.
Very good video. Thank you for share. I have 2006 Civic Hybrid, Is same the batteries?
2000-2005 have the exact same cells. Also civic and insight 03-05 are the same inside the pack. though the pack is different.
2000 to 2005 were the same sticks. 2006 to 2007 were very different in how those sticks are put together. Both are NiMh cells though.
@Botello Atencio SCAM, keep away from EZ.
Hi ,I got a Honda Civic Hybrid 2004and got with the Hybrid battery. I would like to ask where can we get the battery stick. I would be very grateful if you can help me and let me know where to buy.Tq
Good job. I'll be doing the exact same thing soon. My ima light is on and it's killing my 12v battery.
check out my article at www.homepower.com/articles/vehicles/hybrids/rebuilding-hybrid-vehicle-battery-pack - the story is a bit old now and I use a different method too, but this should get your car rolling again.
@@michael47lamb Hi Mike! The link above doesn't work, the Homepower site is archived, so could you tell which year and month was the article published? Thanks!
Hi! Can this work without temperature sensors? (I mean the green stuffs) Or is it necessary?
Good video. However I do not agree that HCH is not a good car to have. It depends on how you intend to drive it and if you like tinkering on batteries. I have had several of them and yes the IMA pack can be annoying, but they are not that bad to deep cycle with the right tools at hand. However if the car is going to be driven mainly in the city then I agree that this is NOT a good choice for everyone. City driving is death for aging IMA packs especially in hot weather (batteries in heneral HATE being over 100F.) HCH packs can be deep cycled and so fixed repeatedly but this does take some time. I can fix mine in a couple days using a slightly different method than you used. However HCH is a good highway car, just rather small for driving long distance.
Also the BCM and charging errors are often caused by poor grounds and connectors that shake loose somehow.
Very good points!
I have a 2001 Insight I bought this summer and now as the weather has turned colder which usually from my experience triggers weakened batteries near failure to die. The IMA and engine light on mine came on yesterday so I'm looking into the cheapest way to get the most from this system while learning the ins and outs of hybrids. Is there a way to use a lithium ion replacement battery pack or is that out of the capabilities of this system? Also, can anyone provide a reconditioning service of my current battery cells if I mail them, at a price in comparison to purchasing new cells that is worth considering?
@@terrafirma9328 lithium is out of the picture without some major electrical engineering involved & alot more money than the car is worth. From my experience rebuilding insight, civic & prius batteries I would say your best bet is just buy a reconditioned battery online (amazon or ebay) from a reputable seller. They are not worth the trouble trying to rebuild or recondition without lots of experience & tools. Just buy a reconditioned battery with a decent warranty
@@terrafirma9328 Old Honda hybrids used NiMh cells and those charge very differently from a Li cell. There is no direct replacement. If your IMA light just came on, and never gave you problems before, or the pack has been replaced some time ago, then reconditioning may be the cheapest way of putting things right again. How well a reconditioning will work for you mainly depends on how beat the cells are presently.
So I took out the battery pack and measured all 20 sticks voltage, they are between 3-4 volts, so they are very low (each sticks have 6 cells) and they should be at least 7.2 volts minimum. Do I need to revive them? If so, how to I revive them? Or do I start using the balance charger to cycle them with no problem? Or are they useless now? In short, do I continue using the balance charger or do I need to boost up the voltage on each stick before reconditioning them?
That is very strange that they are all that low, I would drain all the sticks and then trickle charge them back up to about 8 volts. And then see which ones hold close to that voltage for a few days. Then see which ones discharge the fastest and discard those. And KEEP the ones that hold the highest voltage
excellent video John.,i am learning to do stuff like this for my 2006 HCH with the battery pack showing IMA light on the dash...
i wonder where could i get those IMAX B6 charger and how much would it cost each?I appreciate any advice so to get by..are the stick pretty much same as those from the recent ones like 2006 up to 2010?.The pack discharges and charges easily and worse is when i need more assist to climb mostly the pack is low level to do its work ..My AUTO STOP is no longer showing in the dash ..Thanks looking forward to hear from you..
I just started with the project of repair the battery and found one dead stick similar to the 4:57 min. I used a 40 amps charger for some intervals of 10 seconds 4 times. Hopping this resuscitate the stick....
Give it up as a bad idea. Once a cell is acting that bad it usually stays bad no matter what you do to it.
@@michael47lamb I took out my the battery pack and all sticks shows around 3.5v. Can I revive it since it is below the minimal voltage or do I use the balance charger to cycle it?
@@LemonJuiceGV That is not good news. If I were you I would first try putting a couple sticks on the ImaxB6 and see what the charger thinks of them. One of two things will happen once charging starts: The charger will maybe scream at you a warning of some sort (read the screen message) OR if you are in luck the charger will simply recharge the discharged stick. NiNh cells can sometimes look dead when all they need is a recharging and a few deep cyclings to come back from the "dead."
@@michael47lamb does a clone IMAX b6 works the same as the original?
@@michael47lamb do I first charge it and then discharge it or just charge it up and then continue the discharge and charge cycle?
Can't sticks like these be purchased on the free market and just be replaced instead of stripping other old batteries?
You can buy it on Ebay
I am looking to buy a 2003 honda civic with a bad electrical battery would the car run like that? Thank you
Thank you for the knowledge. Really appreciate it.
I have a 2001 Insight I bought this summer and now as the weather has turned colder which usually from my experience triggers weakened batteries near failure to die. The IMA and engine light on mine came on yesterday so I'm looking into the cheapest way to get the most from this system while learning the ins and outs of hybrids. Is there a way to use a lithium ion replacement battery pack or is that out of the capabilities of this system? Also, can anyone provide a reconditioning service of my current battery cells if I mail them, at a price in comparison to purchasing new cells that is worth considering?
Companies that do pack rebuilding do exist. Check around online and you will quickly find at least a couple. Prices for the entire pack vary a great deal, I see anywhere from 1600 to 4000 . You can also just buy the "sticks" and replace them all yourself if you have some mechanical skills, and patience. Just the sticks costs about $40 each, you need 20 of them. Sticks this cheap are generally made in China and quality can vary a lot.
@@michael47lamb what is the name of these cells?
The proper name is Nickle Metal Hydride abbreviated NiMh.
If the battery is not good how is gonna affect the car i really wanna know please.
All of your sticks are Chinese aftermarket. None were original Honda. Likely from the now defunct Hybrid Battery Repair. Skip to 14:38 for all you need to know.
Can i charge these without actually removing the sticks( The side cases and 10mm are out? Not liking how these phillups screws are coming out .
Yes you can. What I learned in this whole experience is the computer acknowledges the voltage relative to the other cells extremely closely. If there is any variance it will set your (red triangle) warning lights off. All the voltages have to be almost identical
Does anyone know how much capacity leakage is acceptable? I charge the cell to full, wait a month and charge it again. I have results from 1600mAh to 6800mAh.
Thanks for advice!!. What do you think about 2007 Hybrid Honda Model? its the same?
Far worse.
starting in 06 honda did some seriously dumb things to the ima system. I would avoid 06-09 if I was you.
Do you use a generic scan tool to clear the codes or the Honda specific scan tool?
Generic
How long did it take you to do all the work? and despite the MIL sign - did you see an improvement in the mileage?
Thanks
This process takes a few weeks as the vid shows. There are faster methods too. The MPG goes up to a normal level (44+) again and the car functions as it should for months.
how is the car now when it comes to get battery? My friend has one and the battery is "dead". I want to help him but I also want to know it will last. thanks
Reconditioning a IMA pack is not that difficult, I see the effects on my project cars last anywhere from 3 months to 12 months before the IMA light comes on again. How long depends on the shape the cells are to start with and how the car gets driven.
i wonder if it would be possible for a guy to make his own batter pack "stick" because i heard they are just made of NiMH 'D-cell' batteries.
I knew a guy who tried that once. The car computer hated it.
Car computer even hated aftermarket Chinese ima sticks on my Honda
I can tell you that all what you did with your bad batteries is wasting time.
They are not going to last long.
250 for battery that's cheap.
That means you bought a core.
Thank you for your video.
Yeah, people are probably better off just buying a reconditioned pack. Or new cells off of eBay /Amazon if they plan on doing it this route
I'm going to agree that all you did was buy a used car battery which is not going to last that long and end up having car problems in a couple months again. if you plan on keeping the car you may as well just buy a brand new battery pack
I have removed and charged all of the sticks but now realize I don't know what order they are to be installed in the case.
Did you figure it out?.. I didnt take picture of which sticks the lil red out case wires are attached to and his video jumps to battery installed
You still need help
How's it going for you now? I'm about to buy a replacement IMA from Bumblebee or Green tech Auto. Just a switch out job. About $2,000. Not terrible.
BB makes a nice pack, just pricey. Try deep cycling the cells yourself, you will be surprised at the results at a much lower cost.
@@michael47lamb thanks. I already did the switch out about two months ago. At the end it cost me about $1700. Way too much! But now my daughter has a good car. Another case of buying something I'm unfamiliar with. Lesson learned.
BB has a good warranty I think. Read up on it and follow whatever they want to keep it in effect. Hopefully the car will go for a long time now. However if the IMA light comes on again I strongly urge you to deep cycle the cells immediately to prevent more damage to them (assuming the BB warranty is now longer any good then). Early preventive deep cycling can keep these cars running for 300 000 miles!
Hi Ando, I thought it would be a good idea to warn you about the CVT transmissions in HCH and Insight cars. They really need to have the CVT fluid changed a lot more frequently than the manual says to. If you are not sure how old the fluid in your car is then you really need to change it asap or the trans is likely to destroy itself, a really common issue with Honda hybrids of this vintage. DIY it for about $50 or have a dealer do it for $400. It is not hard to do either. Just critical. If the trans is already slipping a little, but driveable, then changing the fluid will help, though a trans repair is probably on your menu soon. Pal of mine fixed his for $500 in parts alone. He did the work himself. A trans shop wanted $5000.
This is really interesting. I have found the same to be true. Also it seems that only the Honda fluid stopped the slipping or chatter. I have changed the fluid recently and it is still slipping a bit so if that can be remedied I would be interested in learning how. It cannot be that heavy to get out (I must be nuts). My transmission went out a few years back and had to be replaced. I had a used one installed and it cost around $2200. I would not want to do that again. The battery is one thing, the transmission is another.
I've been doing this for 1 1/2 years... using 160 used batteries and this is not a long term fix. Once these batteries get old they will fail again. It only takes one cell thats 1/10 of a volt off and the IMA will go on. Just buy a new set for $1,400.00 and fix the problem.
Amen! That's what I learned having done this process. Your best bet is just to buy a new battery, or a cheap reconditioned used one (w/ warranty)
@@JohnCalebWarren My new batteries work perfectly... never discharge more than 3 bars and go to full charge in a couple of stops.
I typically see the "new" packs work ok for about 4 years and then start having problems just like before. Also 1400 bucks is a lot of money to put into an old car that is worth about 1300 in my opinion. I find cheap civic hybrids and prius every week on craigslist 1000 to 2000 dollars. Also a car is a car and they all start having typical automotive problems along with hybrid pack issues. I like putting as little cash as possible in any used car since they are always money losing ventures usually.
That is crazy. I purchased a rebuild pack 5 or 6 years ago (150K mile ago)
@@robertbuehler4619 Who did you buy your replacement pack from? What was the price?
After you reconditioned the sticks..how long did they last or stayed charged
Good question, I deep cycle my pack about every 6 months. The longest I have had one working without the ima light on was 11 months. How long the effects last depends on many factors though. Mainly how bad off the sticks were to start with.
It lasted a few months, I would strongly recommend avoiding these cars. Get a Toyota Prius they perfected the hybrid system way better. Much easier to work on it as well
I agree the Prius is a better design and the pack looks easier to work on, but a lot heavier to move. The next time I need an old fixer upper I am getting one of those, assuming I can find one that is not beat to crap at a low enough price.
I'm still confused. Do you buy new battery pack, discharge and recharge 3x and then put them back in order unless one heats up and rearrange them and the battery is ready? Why do you have to discharge and recharge them?
Charging and discharging a few times breaks up some of the nickle crystals that form on the plates in each cell. It is far from perfect but does help a lot to restore function to the cell. I typically see about 70% capacity returning. Sometimes more. The effects last for a few months to a few years. Depending on how beat the cells are to start with. Keep in mind doing this will NOT make the pack act like a new one would. It will make it act better though. If you intend to keep the car a long time and have no money for new cells then expect to do this process more than once a year, or two. I also do not see a lot wrong with the Chinese cells that are available cheap these days. For $38 each (you need 20 of them) you can have a fully functional pack. Find lots of sellers of these cells at Alibaba.
@@michael47lamb say if I buy the cells online and do the the same recharge n discharge. How would I know at what order they should be so one doesn't heat up?
@@LemonJuiceGV Where you place the any of the "sticks" (the cells are welded together in a series of 6 cells to make a stick) does not matter at all as long as all 20 sticks are performing in about the same way. It is always best to not mix poor sticks with new or good sticks, if you can avoid this. Mixing poor one with good ones will only result in a poorly performing pack. The reason for this is that all the cells (120 of them) are in series with each other. Any cell (or stick) that is not performing like the rest of them will "hold back" charging and discharging of the rest of the pack. This results in the cells getting unbalanced in their State of Charge (SOC) a lot faster. The computer in the car can sense this and send a IMA warning to your dash if it gets too far out of wack. Eventually the computer will simply refuse to turn on the pack at all and leave you stranded someplace.
I also want to mention that when buying new sticks online, it is not really necessary to deep cycle each new stick. If the stick really is "new" (and not a used one somebody had worked on before) then it should be clear enough of nickel crystals on the plates inside. Cycling new sticks is pretty much a waste of your time. Instead, fully charge each stick before installing it in the pack. This is so all the sticks will be at the same SOC from the start. Once the car has been using the pack for a few weeks you will get an idea how well the sticks are performing as a unit.
I have never been left sitting but my pack shuts off or I see no meter readings (charging/discharging) on the dash. I can still run my 04 but cannot rev over 3000 rpms. If I turn the car off and on (been doing that while driving lately) the system comes back on line and I can rev over 3000 rpms. It has started surging but I am done driving it until I get the replacement pack in. I will work on rebuilding or repairing the failing one once I have the replacement one in. Hope it clears up some of the issues.
Hi anyone i have built a 48 volt battery bank from a civic hybrid battery sticks i am looking for a 7s 48 volt BMS can anyone suggest one i need three of them
I have a honda civic ima 2004, i like that, i mean you need take a litle care of it, but after 6 years driving this thing my totals costs with Service and repairs was just 3000€ so i guess for 20 year old car, its realy good and yes i will take care longer for that car 😄💪🏼
I think those charger/dischargers are only rated at 50 watts. So you shouldn't be able to push over 5.85 amps at 8.5 volts.
Obviously you are mistaken. Imax B6 has no problem cycling 6 D cells at a time.
I needed to double check those last 2 red wires but you left out
I bought a 05 civic habrid I bought it for $800 box on the year 2010 but I never had a problem wit the IMA battery but one day I tried to meve it but it didn't go back and faward ,I pulled out the transmission and I fount out that the flywheel teeth were damaged so I decided to buy a new flywheel and problem solved.
I have to agree the prius is the very best in reliability as far as hybrids go. I have an accord ima what a doosy of a car when the battery goes south. The civic is a pile of crap as far as hybrids go the ecu and bcm are always in disagreement. You have to have a honda module you can get em off ebay and reflash the bcm so that the battery will take again. Once the battery goes dead the bcm will store an error in the memory tell you have it flashed which you can do yourself with an ebay honda module. Don't bother with the dealer its just money and headaches.
This the first I have heard about re-flashing the ECU. I installed my battery pack many years ago and did not have any problems with the ECU. I would not be surprised if do now since my pack is really giving me problems now. Are we talking about just clearing codes or something more in-depth.
How many amp-hour per cell?
If you want a hybrid stick to Toyota Camry.. 2014 100k miles later no issues...
Would have been nice if he cut out the 14:30 of talking... And just recommended not buying older Honda hybrids, I will run mine till it quits then throw it in the gutter and get another
I feel your pain, but if you have some talent and patience deep cycling the cells will solve many of your car issues.
I hear you Eazy!
For all this effort, you could buy a Skyactive Mazda and get the same mileage.
That comment in the end to just not buy one of these cars is just killing me. After all that I was so excited to get mine straightened out and he just kills me buy saying without saying it that I should just give up one the car and look for something with less issues. I can say that I have had the car since 2006 or 7 and I am a bit tired of it. I have also put 340K miles on so we have spent a lot of quality time together LOL (it had 32K on it when I bought it. I really want to know what was keeping the check engine light on. I am also on my second battery (after market rebuild), second transmission and second head gasket, second set of catalytic converters (honda stock cats. they were not cheap)
Hi Robert. I am happy you are happy with your HCH. What year is it? Where did you buy your pack from? I am curious that someone assembled one that lasted so long.
I have two '03's and it is a love/hate relationship for sure. I cant beat 52 MPG but the yearly (sometimes monthly) fiddling with batteries is a bit wearing. I have owned the first one since the article I wrote for Home Power magazine in 2009. The second one I got from a kid in DC that was scared of the IMA light being on (I got it for $1k and he was more than happy to sell it at that price. NO ONE else wanted it.) So I can honestly say I know a lot about the realities of owning a first gen HCH.
Old cars get older in general and all sorts of things are wearing out, not just the IMA packs. So many car owners feel that pouring thousands into an old car that is worth maybe 1 or 2 thou is bad business. I agree with this school of thought. Usually a old car is a old car no matter what nifty features it has, and is worth that old car price. So unless you are interested in doing all the repair work yourself (most owners are not) sell the old hch and get something less messed up. New cars are very nice, at a price. lol
It is remarkable you are getting such long life from a pack. That is very unusual. My first "Honda factory" rebuilt pack worked right for about a year. The second one worked 3 years (also Honda original) . Lifetime depends on many factors including how it is driven. I drive a lot at highway speeds. 240k on the first hch now. 170k on the second one (I switch between them to average out wear.) That is not to suggest that city driving is easier on a pack, it is most certainly NOT! City traffic is a fast death for NiMh cells in general. It puts a lot of heat and a huge imbalance into those 120 cells very quickly unless it is also followed up with a long high speed trip to recharge and hopefully cool down the cells well. This is especially true in hot weather.
The Chinese factories these cells are made have a great deal of QC issues but once in awhile 120 really good cells get matched up together. I am sure this is more by accident than design. You got lucky with your pack.
There is also the "love and fascination" factor to consider too. Personally I keep my two hch's because the car makers are too STUPID to see that there are many customers that do keep their cars a very long time, especially when the factories do not make ANYTHING that gets as impressive a MPG today... many years later! (are you Detroit and Japan factory owners reading this? I sure hope so!)
@@michael47lamb I keep putting money into the car because everything else works and its not really falling apart like old cars used to. I have keep a few cars now for more than 300k miles. At this point its kind of like a challenge to see how many miles I can get out it. I went on Craigs list looking for another car like you did so I could pull the battery and rebuild it while I kept driving mine. What I found was that there are a lot of these cars out there and some are in really good condition and may only need the battery. Prices ranged from several hundred to $4000. If I can find a good one for a low price with a standard transmission I might buy it. On the other hand, after what you said maybe I should think about something else. I find that having owned the car this long I feel like I at least know some of the issues and how to repair them. I am interested in trying to pull a motor or CV transmission. A standard transmission would probably be much easier to deal with. Where are you in DC. I am headed down there tomorrow to pick up my battery
@@robertbuehler4619 Hi Robert I am in Manassas about 30 miles west of DC. How about you try emailing me direct at michael 47 lamb at g mail company. Sorry for the way I wrote this but the online trolls and bots are clever with fishing out e mail online any more. Hope to see e mail from you soon.
Now for any of you reading this that want to abuse my address: I deal harshly with abuse so beware.
i have a hybrid battery re-conditioner with systematic app can fix the whole battery pack in 18hours. it is easy to use.
miszowaty
How can i check which module is worn out?
Deep cycling is the best way of determining if a stick is working well.
Are those grid chargers worth their salt?
The Imax is popular due to the knock-off versions being half the cost of a real SkyRC Imax. They are good only if your cells are not totally beat. Really "hard used" cells will not likely benefit from the discharge the Imax can do since the rate is capped at 1 amp. To get around that what I do these days is charge the cells with a Imax and then Discharge them with a automotive "carbon pile" battery load tester. This way I can discharge the cells a 50 amps or more and this does a good job of melting out any nickle filaments between the plates in the cells. It also allows me to get a feel for internal resistance in the cells and which ones get hot. Never use cells that get hot in your pack.
There are lots of other charger/reconditioners out there but most have pretty much the same limitations as the Imax, they just cost a lot more.
@@michael47lamb I am wanting to recondition my cells and it seems like you have a decent amount of experience with that. What tools, as in the battery chargers and the automotive "carbon pile" battery load tester, should I be looking for? I looked for the Imax but didn't find any legit looking ones and I don't know the exact specs to look out for to find a different one. I have an older grid charger from Hybrid Automotive, but the battery was already pretty bad when I got the car and it is just keeping it running at this point. Also, is there a reputable place to buy new cells? I have seen some aftermarket packs that have "new and improved" cells, any info on that?
Sorry for the wall of text, I have been thinking about doing this for a while and stumbled onto this video recently. Thanks!
@@Jonny_Dee_0 Hi. I have no trouble finding an assortment of chargers that can handle NiMh cells like in a Honda hybrid. SkyRC is one of the least expensive decent brands, though Triton is good too. Most of the others I have seen are much more expensive. The really cheap knock-offs will work too for a shorter amount of time. The last knock-off I had worked so-so for about a year before it died totally (from the first day it never did auto cycle like it should have and the seller gave me back my money $16 and never wanted it returned. lol.)
The "carbon pile" load tester your want is generally something like my old "Sun Model Y". Do a google search on this term for pictures. The modern versions are very similar looking and do the same thing. I recently found one by Solar on Amazon for about $73, this was for another hybrid owner working on his Insight.
Replacement cells (sticks) are another matter. There are a great many available online at a range of prices. Unfortunately there is no way to know what will work well and what is junk as they all look the same until you test them, or better yet, install them in the car. The best I can tell you about choosing new sticks is to ONLY buy NEW sticks as used ones are often VERY used and little different than what you already own. Try to also only buy from reputable companies with a warranty and return policy you can live with. Most companies like this are in California since all new sticks come from China these days. You can also try Alibaba for replacements. I see lots of sellers there, but have no idea what their differences may be. Also you are sending your money out of the country, never to be seen again usually. But these are the same sticks as what gets sold from California, so roll your dice and hope for the best. Prices range from $30 to $70 each. You usually get a price break if you buy 20 or more sticks.
If you want to continue this conversation pls write to my editors at homepower.com and ask them to forward your request to me. Also check out my old article "rebuilding a hybrid car battery." Lots of decent info there even though it is a bit dated now. The editors know how to find me and are nice about forwarding requests to my inbox. I dont like posting my address online for obvious reasons. It is also not polite for me to dominate Mr Warrens page like this. Sorry John Caleb Warren!
lmao. Nice I already have 2 of these R/C chargers. :) Cool.
hey ,if anyone else wants to discover how to recondition a battery try Jons Mender Guide (do a search on google ) ? Ive heard some interesting things about it and my co-worker got excellent success with it.
Hi, can you share link of these battery on ebay ? cant find that, thanks
LOts of places sell new sticks, just search online for a good vendor. Make sure the sticks are NEW.
Glad you had more luck... did exactly what you did... Nothing...
Lol at battery connected to jumper cables.
hi everyone ,if anyone else wants to discover battery fix try Jons Mender Guide (just google it ) ? Ive heard some extraordinary things about it and my mate got cool results with it.
I\'m not sure but ,if anyone else is searching for how to recondition batteries at home try Cypouris Renewal Guide Coach (do a search on google ) ? Ive heard some amazing things about it and my cousin got amazing success with it.
There are many components to battery reconditioning. One resource I discovered which successfully combines these is the Magic Mender Wizard (google it if you're interested) definately the most helpful info that I have ever seen. look at this unbelievable resource.
У меня тоже проблема с батерея
Я тоже решаю
Ищу бамбуки
На русском кто то обиснит
I've been studying fixing a car battery and discovered an awesome website at Rapid Renew Roadmap (google it if you're interested)
More snake oil nonsense! Everyone avoid this scam please!