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- Опубликовано: 22 авг 2024
- Designing your own custom heat sink is cheaper and easier than you might think.
At look at why you might want to design your own heat sink, the costs, the advantages and disadvantages, design considerations for surface mount PCB's, air convection, and mechanical DRC, and die-cast vs machining.
This is Part 19 of the µSupply Design series
SMD thermal design video: • EEVblog #744 - SMD The...
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"if you're doing 1000 of your product, you'd just order 5000..." Daves how to guide on hoarding for beginners
Dave guide to preparing for success.
@@EEVblog damn right! if there's one thing I've learned; it's that you can never have too many electronic components/parts; also I've learned that no matter how many things you buy in, you'll never have the part you need
and if you have individuals of your product coming in for warranty you dont have to order the parts first. (that is if they are still in stock somewhere what do you do if your device in Need is actually outta production?) hoarding is not Always bad. there are industries where you have to Warrant your product for ten or Maybe more years.
Gotta build in some wiggle room for mistakes!
@@Zardox-The-Heretic-Slayer +EEVblog I thought it was all about minimizing inventory ?
Yes! Please do a heatsink design and DFM video!
I've said it on another video. They just don't teach this stuff in college. Very useful information. Thanks Dave.
Can't wait for the uSupply!
It's actually a Greek mu (looks sort of like a lower-case u), which is the SI abbreviation for "micro".
"U" have to supply your own power!! :-)
You guys for real?
Because "u" is easier to type.
@@Arek_R. What do you expect? your on an engineering channel and trolls still gotta troll🤣
Dave, love you, but you're, 16 minutes in before you move on from turning that item over and over in your hand!
Repeating yourself over and over as well...
It' a cool product. (Hardly, the "brief look", characterized at 22:50)
Dave it's not the length that we love it's the insight.
I have this exact issue with his videos. I find myself really agitated about him not reaching the point.
+1 for a separate video by David explaining the design process in detail.
Just wack some graphine paste on it, I’ve heard it has some magical thermal properties😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃 it is 2000% efficient 🤪🧐😃😃😃🤪🧐😃
or pot it with thermal epoxy. The conduction is low but makes up for it with sheer volume. Does add weight and kill serviceability but everything is throwaway these days anyway...
graPHENE, dohhh
It was a play on the way Dave pronounced it in his debunk video, it was a joke after all😜
Was thinking, you could 3D print the heatsink before getting the aluminum to make sure it fits the PCB and case before spending a ton of cash to only find out there is a problem. Also you use the 3D printed model to make a mold and make your own aluminum heatsink.
For sure. But you wouldn't jump to production unless you had validated the thermal performance though.
@@EEVblog another way how you can understand @learning electronics cheaply s comment is that you could use the 3d print for protyping heatsinks with the lost pla method. which is something you could do more or less at home
der bender aluminum casting isn’t something most people can do at home - lost pla or not.
@@EEVblog You can simulate it pretty well before ordering prototypes, but I wouldn't jump to production without doing a prototype. @Learning Electronics Cheaply I wouldn't bother to make my own molds if I intended to make 100s or 1000s and unless you have the equipment to make aluminium casts and machine/clean up the casts you wouldn't do it for a handful either, as by the time you have bought it you are talking $300-400 for the basics and $2000-4000 if you want something controllable with ventilation so you can do it inside.
@@JasperJanssen I've seen it being done and it's usually like 1/5 work well enough and the rest is a huge chunk of weird solidified aluminium. I would say that if you do have a 3D printer and do this kind of project, chances are you know how to mod it easily and cheaply enough to make a small CNC and mill it, slowly but still giving better results.
Please do have David 2 put together a video on how he did that heatsink and prep the files for sending to the manufacturer :)
Yes, Please have David do a walk through video on the CAD process of designing the heat sink!!!!!!
I'd also love to see that video. I used to use Solidworks daily for work, but after a job change I'm stuck with OnShape for my hobby stuff...I totally understand the preference for SW!
"a heatsink can be sexy to"... I need to update my Tinder!
On the internet, nobody knows you're a heatsink :P
Heatsink lamellar armor selfie
This was a phenomenal video Dave. As a mechanical engineer, I am always trying to blend my love for ME, EE, and design for manufacture. It would be awesome for a followup video going into the casting process and perhaps one on how you got that custom case you pulled up at 16:35 ? Keep up the phenomenal content.
The ZX Spectrum 128K had an external heat sink, looked quite nice.
Great video Dave. Please do a follow up video with David. Great work on the product too - looking forward to seeing more of it.
If you have a cutting machine like the silhouette cameo you can cut the sil-pads yourself. Works great!
or just bend some thin steel into a cookie cutter shape and press the sil pad out of a sheet
Heatsinks and EMC may be an interesting topic
Nice touch in the background. A bro with Pentium-Pro. Thumbs up, mate.
They did a good job on the anodizing. Looks powder coated.
that's a nice cooling concept, thing of beauty
REALLY want DFM stuff!!
I just had some heatsinks made for my LBM speakers (which you reviewed). I asked lots of suppliers which extrusions they already have and chose one that suits my needs. But, they have custom cnc drilled and tapped it and then anodized to my spec. Kind of a half way step to custom parts and ordered a couple hundred.
Was that new case SLS printed?
If it's on the back of the product, wont all the joules just fall out an no heat will be retained inside the device?
They behave like electrons, don't they? ;)
Electrons, photons... thermons? :p
@@AzureFlash Technically they're just lower-energy photons (infra-red, doncha know?).
No, just think of it as an entropy pump. You have to get the entropy out before the semiconductors become melancholy. The entropy leaks out to the edges of the metal. You definitely don't want it retained in the device, the ICs will go full Hamlet.
uSupply is getting along. Good to see progress. Where are the programming pins for the main micro, U5? :)
Looks very good Dave and David. Very interesting. Will you release more videos about all the interesting design elements of the uSupply? What will be the price point?
I don't think he will until it's all finished.
I hope we will get some more information about the micro supply soon. That project was a plan years ago. I’ll definitely buy one as soon as I can the same way I did with the 121GW (I’ve got serial number 43 if I remember correctly )
I've pretty much given up using silpads for anything but prototypes. I much prefer the phase-change material that goes on like tape, but softens to make a great, minimal-thickness thermal interface.
Hi Bob, what's that? Can you give a link please?
@@Audio_Simon Bump
Would be curious for a link as well!
has serviceability issues, cannot be reused.
Just one thing I think it's missing in the video: Clearance. You have to take into account the size variations of the chips and the Pick-and-Place machine positioning error, then leave this variation as a hole in your heatsink, or it will not fit on many of your products. (I believe David did leave some clearance by the looks of it).
Yes, but those errors are small. If that was a problem then you'd have to be a silly levels of clearance.
@@EEVblog well, packages can vary by +-0.1mm, worst case scenario you have 0.2mm error on both your transistors + P&P error (which I don't know how much it is). 0.2mm is enough to make interference and your heatsink won't fit.
If you designed something like this with 0.2mm tolerance then you'll likely have more problems than just a heatsink!
Precisily, so tolerance and clearance are concepts that are useful for beginners to know, they tend to just specify things spot on and the manufacturer does what he wants, since there's no specification... Well maybe that's too much mechanical engineering for the channel :P
cool, now that gives me some ideas, like chopping up some heatsinks I already have to go around some through hole components
It's actually often worth it to 3d print metal parts in plastic before bothering to get one machined so you can check fitment. For heatsinking, obviously you'll still need to do the machined part as an intermediate to verify the thing works thermally, but dropping a couple hundred bucks on machined prototypes that don't actually fit is not fun.
Yes, Please get Dave2 to make a video on how he made it, and then add a link here;-) in the description.
This is a very simple design. Do you really need help with it?
@@GLITCH_-.- @Samuel Comeau, yeah, and also for all the others that are afraid to ask. Each person has their own style, and not to mention, what I personally was expecting to see was how the two are combined, i.e. the 3D version of the PCB and then making the heatsink and measuring everything up and making the shapes. There are tutorials out there, and these things may be easy for a couple of you, but when it isn't 100% your field, your bread & butter, then yes, when you are able to learn from someone that you can understand and not fall asleep watching a video, it makes for an interesting discovery and learning path too.
Useful video 👍
This is always the hardest when designing a product. Going through the same issues. Was originally doing a custom case until I found out the costs involved.
uSupply is coming along nicely
I thought about this too recently when I opened up my "TP Link Archer C9" home router. Its a basic Gaming router of sorts with a beefy CPU. It has a massive custom designed heatsink which I image would have cost a bit in R&D alone.
Investment casting is not expensive either and allows for any form, even organic forms combined with geometric surfaces. Moulds can be made from a 3d printed model.
That heatsink reminds me of 80's computer case design.
placing the heat sink outside: be careful that you do not make it look like the product's grip. (unless you're absolutely sure that they won't burn their hands)
Also make sure that it is about the same size as the bottom of a coffee mug, it will serve a dual purpose!
I would like a seperate video on the design aspect of heatsinks
Exelent video! I like to watch more about engineering, inventing stuff. Thanks! 👍
That's is probably an ok thickness, also being on the inside, but sometimes you can gain strength in a long thin piece by adding some occasional ribs in the perpendicular direction to gain effective depth. The heat sink needs some method of conductivity the environment, or it will eventually saturate with heat. It does have some here.
We don't need strength here.
Have considered it, but nowadays must suppliers don't even bother for less than 500 pieces in volume.
Unless you want to spend $$$
at that sort of prices, you might as well buy your own mini-cnc mill and get some blocks of aluminium. After the up-front costs, you're making heatsinks essentially at aluminium-pricing
he's gonna need to make a lot of prototypes to recover the cost of a cnc machine and learning to use it, maintenance and having somewhere to put it. it's only $65 for the prototypes, final ones will probably be under a dollar each when he goes to casting.
@@RWoody1995 small cncs are under 1000$ nowadays. Do a few prototypes and you have it back
@@redtails more than a few; unless you have a particular need to run through these kind of prototypes regularly, by the time a small company (especially a super tiny company like eevblog) has made enough prototypes to spend 1k (15+ at the $65 rate) a few years will have passed so at that point what are you saving, $100 over 2 years? not to mention that each time it eventually does get used it will waste a day setting it up again, 1 day is worth more than $65 whoever you are...
Have a look at the QUAD 405 for early heatsink as a front panel design.
Cloud based solid modeling and design....a very very slippery slope. As well, you are paying for a service and not buying something outright. If you have a poor connection or need to work offline due to being in a location in a plant that has no internet connection or its intranet is locked out, you're hooped. I really wish it wasn't a thing but unfortunately, it seems to be catching on. :-\
Dave, how does David2 like Onshape? I am a SW user at work and have been toying with playing with some stripped down programs. I am not a fan of cloud based solutions AT ALL but, I want to at least try one.
He tolerates it. We aren't paying $8k for Solidworks. David2 thinks every package apart from Solidworks sucks balls.
@@EEVblog I don't blame you for not wanting to pay that for what you do. Your operation is far too small to justify it. David2 isn't entirely wrong either. I have used many different software packages over the years (Autocad, CadKey, Solidworks, CATIA, Pro/E) and all of them usually do some things good and some things bad and there is a tradeoff between all of them.....except for Solidworks. SW got more of it right, continuously over the years than anyone else. They also are the only company who is honestly continuously developing and adding value added features and functionality with every single release. Which is all fine and dandy, if you know about it and if you can use those new features. So, you really have to stay involved with social media to keep up with it all.
The one issue with all the people getting into "3D design" now with the advent of free cloud based modeling and 3D printing.....its creating an entire community of people who have no idea how to model properly and have no idea how to properly draw or what drafting best practices even are. The end result is dealing with horrible drawings and prints out there. You have seen it yourself when you were working in Altium on a PCB design within the last 12mo in a video. The person who created the schematic and layout had text all over the place, lines over text, etc. Really ugly drawings that are painful to try and read. But their common response is "It gets the job done." The unfortunate part is, they're right and thats what managers see. Eventually it will all come crashing down because you can't build a castle on a foundation of complete shit.
A MM sized lab PSU is prob. the best product idea i have heard of for a pretty long time.
Kinda weird that a product like this does not exist yet (well not that i heard of anyway).
Of course this formfactor will not allow for a typical 30V/3A supply, but something like 10V and a couple of hundred milliamps
is more than enough for a lot of things and a fair traidoff to gain a lot of mobility in the lab.
e1 85 9f Funny, there was one in the catalog for my local shop when I last checked.
@@johnfrancisdoe1563
I never activily searched for one, but still i never seen one beeing sold anywhere in the usual places.
Btw i meant a real "lab power supply" as in actually made for lab use (with additional features like beeing programmable and beeing somewhat precise in both readings and set parameters), just with the size and formfactor of a multimeter and battery operated and not one of those educational thingis you have to connect to a computer to work or some consumer grade stuff.
@@johnfrancisdoe1563
*edit
I did a quick google search and i actually did find some products like this. Didnt know they even existed.
But i didnt find anything from a known company. Seems to be pretty niche. I actually only found one sold in the eu, it seems pretty decent and ok priced (around 100 euros).
*But* its not battery powered, you still need a mains cable pluged in for a handheld device, which i find to be kinda stupid to be honest.
From experience: no point of having huge heatsink of your enclosure is fully closed - use a simple plate thermally attached to the case(seen it used in laptop power supply design, tried it, works a treat). Fins go vertically - no questions asked. If single heat source - preferred height 1/3 from the bottom. If possible use parallel sources po spread heat more evenly across the heat sink, this can result in more than 10 degree C lower temperature.
Thanks.
What about custom emi shielding cans for the RF circuits?
Not sure if those transistors have losses just related with RDSon but if so I prefer to find a transistors with lower RDSon or use multiple in parallel so that I do not need a heat sink.
If there is no forced airflow then there is no much you can dissipate even with a heatsink. Using lower RDSon mosfets instead of a heat sink will also keep the weight low on the product that can have significant cost savings on international shipping.
That said the custom heat sink looks great :)
Also where I needed higher power dissipation I used dual PCB's one standard FR4 for non heat dissipating parts and an Aluminium based one (used a lot on LED lights) for the power parts as the heat transfer is excellent, will not degrade with time and customers can install the product on their own heatsink as large as they want or use forced air cooling.
RDSon dominates.
A big heatsink with no air flow is still better than no heatsink with no air flow. It gets the heat away form the junction it can radiate and convect over a larger surface area.
@@EEVblog As an example my new project is to make an ideal diode + switch so two mosfets in series one as a switch and one as ideal diode. They will need to handle up to around 20A so the option is to use just two mosfets and a heatsink or use groups of two parallel mosfets 4 in total as in that case I will not need a heatsink the PCB alone is enough to deal with heat dissipation.
The plan is to use the TPH2R608 each is $0.85 in volume so the extra two will be $1.7 USD hard to justify a heatsink and all the complications associated with that.
This is a 2.6mOhm max mosfet so as each will see half the current 10A that is 260mW for each and easy to dissipate around 1W for all 4 on a small PCB as they are the only significant source of heat excluding connectors and PCB tracks.
With just two mosfets there are a bit over 2W and that no longer works as is a bit over 1W per mosfet and PCB is very small not much area and adding a small heat sink while not expensive will not do that much and adds quite a bit of complication with the assembly.
By the way: In your previous video (TV phone jack Repair) you mentioned the ceramic heat sink. I must admit, this was the first time i ever heard of that. I tried to google but there is very few to find. Looks like aluminium is good in collecting heat but not good in dissipating while with ceramic it's the other way around. Would be interesting to see some information about that topic.
Dave that sill pad looks like a transformer laminate
Do you know why exactly it didn't touch the transistors? Aren't sil-pads electrically isolating?
@@Alex4n3r the transistors are surface mount he is electricly isolating the heat sink from the board it self
@@God-CDXX OK, thanks!
Dave you better make costum aluminium poted case. Is this thing powered from bateries or what?
Even big companies who do 10.000 unit try to use existing parts, for long term availability . . .
now the real big Question what is the product that uses that and what Kind of circuitry are you using
looks like his uSupply.
Machinable Al has different thermal properties from cast Al. Is the difference even relevant in the context of heatsinks?
Will adding more heatsink add battery life? (just kidding) :)
That being said, what sort of small, portable device would be designed to dissipate this much heat and have any decent battery-life?
If we put LED on large heatsink, it will require less power for the same light output, so flashlight with good heatsink indeed adds to battery life :)
David 2 yes please
Another idea for heat sink design is to consider the lost 3D print method. This link is for car details, but I see no reason why you couldn't try for heat sink prototypes once you have the parameters down (heatsink design and casting shrinkage):
hackaday.com/2019/03/28/casting-car-emblems-via-3d-printing/
WOW! What the material have you used to 3D print the front panel of your multimeter prototype? Looks like a quite a good plastic! I wanna make such good looking prototype for my project too.
I have a 3D printer actually and I never thought a prototype can look so good (because mine is a cheap one and can't produce it probably)
I heard black is supposed to increase radiation away from the heatsink, but what does it do on the side facing the components? Would that benefit from being blank? Also, would the silpad thickness be enough to completely eliminate the backside profile, allowing a flat back?
The anodizing is done by dangling the part in a vat of liquid - you get the colour over the whole surface, and any bits you want as bare metal you need to machine away afterwards.
SIL-PADs should be as thin as possible (their thermal performance is better than air but way worse than aluminium), and certainly nowhere near as fat as the D-PAD packages he's using.
If you want to print paper models, I suggest that you try some 80Lb. paper.
God job
Thanks, we were shooting for a God level job.
God already has pretty sweet power supply but he might order a uSupply as a backup.
Don't let the batteries in your 121GW prototype leak Dave! Would be a shame.
more of enclosure designs please
Every time I export a step model from Altium the resulting file is enormous and makes my Fusion 360 grind to a crawl, I've tried the export as a single part option and it's relatively better but not great. Do you experience that with Onshape. Any tips?
What about a custom aluminium extrusion case?
Could you make a video about that??
Just draw a 2 dimensional end section of what you want, send to the manufacturer and tell me how long they need to make it.
Thanks! The CAD part of it is pretty straight forward, but what are the big design considerations to take in account and the things to loo out for..
Why machining when you can 3d print it in plastic to try to fit ?
4:50 - Is that custom heatsink a casting? If so, I'm guessing major bux for tooling!
Ah, they're machined. Never mind :)
8:03 - 'Casting Machine Cost' - Okay, now I'm confused!
Dave, maybe this video should in main eevblog channel.
Err, it is on the main channel.
I see you removed the anodized aluminum on the thermal contact. Does this micrometer layer makes that much a difference to bother? I imagine it makes fabrication more complicated and expensive
I'd assume the anodized surface is not really flat. To make good thermal contact it is imperative to have as flat a surface as possible. Hence the final milling step after anodization to clean it up.
later, when the part is/becomes cast aluminium, he would have to mill that surface "anyway". Connecting ground to metal can be relevant for EMC testing.
@@sarowie he can't connect the ground to the heatsink, not at least at the point where it's milled. Otherwise he will short the transistors. The silpad will isolate the heatsink electrically (although it will still have some capacitive coupling that could help with EMC)
it is really interesting until the moment you have 15 days to finish your design, but the mech. guys need your components fixed today in layout so they can make the custom heatsink protrusions... sooo interesting:)
how and where and how much will a customized case cost ? and from where ?
Non anodized Alu makes a bridge between the two (isolated) golden pads, how di you prevent short circuit ? by isolating the Heatsink ? then you will lose precious thermal conductivity ?
Dave talked about using thermal pads.
I am a electronics beginners should I buy dso or cro
What will the PCB become?
All this talk about custom this and custom that. Every time I hear you say it I hear the price go up $50 dollars a time. 😂
Actually it ends up cheaper in volume.
Even with the custom tranny, and other custom parts?
Pretty decent machining job. I wandering how they've done rather complex fin grooves.
whats complex about the grooves?
@@transdimensionalist The inner corner between flat surface and outer rounding at the bottom of the groove. They made it seems to be flat. The only way to do it when machining is scraping.
@@alexfedorov1160 sorry im not quite sure where you mean, please elaborated, everything i can see can be done with the normal milling cutters, maybe with several setups and clamping arrangements. Also scrapping is a hand work method not machining, do you mean broaching?
@@transdimensionalist You're right, it's called broaching. Regular cutter (end mill or saw) leave a radius, but on this piece no radius is present. Also, if using end mill to make these grooves, means using 5 axis machine, which again adds to the price tag.
@@alexfedorov1160 yeh i can't see them using broaching for a heatsink, im guessing its just done on 5axis machine, i cant see anything that cant be achieved with normal cutters, they totally can leave flat bottomed grooves
The corner with hole is sharp, not rounded. Why?
I have my own custom Alienware laptop power supply heatsink gotta keep the PSU cool to last longer
Missing the CC button in this video
Hi Dave,
Do I see some small shortcut on pcb between this power pads? Just in the middle (gold track).
It's silkscreen of R1.
Content starts at 4:11
Yes, yes, yes please! (:
Does this mean uSupply is really gonna come out?!
@@Okurka. it's hard to type micro, so u stand for the unit prefix micro
@@Okurka. μ is micro so μController or μCurrent of that makes sense. That being said I hope this hits and is not to terribly expensive.... Really was bummed when the project stalled.
@@Okurka. how do I do that on my phone?
@@mizterwizerd Same, this would be a great product. I think DAVE could eventually form a product line with all the essential equipment for ee lab.
@@leogray1091 I suppose he could, I think it would be interesting to have open source equipment, maybe kits... Like the plastic cases, and board with a bill of materials, that way we could build all our own stuff... Sadly I suppose that some things like a descent DSO might not be worth it... But a cool idea, I started this whole thing with an eBay linear power supply... Then found out why it was terrible and also found someone with info on some of the newer iterations and now have a version that works and I believe solves a lot of the issues but still need to work on the board.... Anyway it went from there I bought lots of crummy kits and now I am working on my own projects, slowly but surely
What is that USB C interface IC you use?
$65 for each is not bad but the part of simple enough to not need a special jig - you may want to consider getting a small desktop CNC for prototyping and even make a few videos on that topic ;)
Buying a CNC machine, finding room for it, learning how to use, buying the raw material, learning how to anodise etc, no way that is going to be cheaper or easier than just paying $65 a piece
@@EEVblog Definitely, didn't say it'd be cheaper. It's more fun though :)
and I can look forward to your machining videos!!!
Meh, design the board to mount a little larger, plain old piece of rectangular sheet aluminum. Press bend it if you need clearance over other parts, could easily be DIY for under $1 each for small quantities. I suppose it won't look Really Nice, but most people will appreciate the cost savings if talking about those few % that ever even open the product to see it.
isnt the sil pad a little bit thick?
So, what *was* the product?! :)
:-) Been there, done that!
Is this the uSupply?
hello please make a test and review of aneng v8 :) thank you
This is the video LinusTechTips should have done instead of their joke.
What joke is that?
And why would LTT do a video on custom heatsink design for PCB's?
@@EEVblog LTT have some very crudely made heatsinks, eg take a block of aluminum and a hacksaw.
@@EEVblog It's not just relevant to PCBs though; designing a heatsink is relevant to any device requiring a heatsink.
LTT attempt was a DIY thing.
@@EEVblog ummmm... because it's a computer/electronics/tech channel...
Is there a formula for heat sinks..
Yes
@@DolezalPetr thanks
the is one Formular for like all the thermal Problems ….
But is it effected in the field ; )
Sorry I'll get my coat.
I wondered how long that would take. :-\
David "You might" Jones
It's written
do you know the difference between heat conductance of aluminium vs ceramic?
Multiple times you said you are dissipating power through the heat sink. I assume you meant heat, not power!
Power in the form of heat
@@IDoNotLikeHandlesOnYT I think you mean energy in the form of heat. Energy is a synonym for power but in this case they are not the same thing. Electrical energy is often refered to as power but thermal energy is not, that's heat :)
hi im from philippines i like your channel a lot its very educational can inmake request can you make simple fm transciever using head set of an smart phone i need this to my work so that we can communicate in distant by the way please make it power by 9 volts battery please i know you can help me thanks in advance pleasebmake more video
Can this be 3d-printed? ;)
Yes, there are 3D printers that can handle metals and the price comes with them. ;)
I did a quick search and found printers, 350X350X350 for about $250K.
silpad...grrr POS ! mica FTW!
Sell it as an advanced DIY kit!
I didn't know they worked on real products. I thought they just did these youtube videos and some designs on the side for the youtube projects.