Few would challenge Bach as the king of fugue. For some, he might at times be too neutral, involved and restive. Handel was a humanitarian to the ground. He bypassed the scholastic and otherworldly. He is earthy, open, freewheeling. From small to large scale, his sturdy assurance is one of the wonders of music.
I get your drift and tend to agree. Most of Handels"s oratorios, however, could not be described as being thoroughly earth-bound, especially "Messiah."
I have just found out (thanks to a youtube commenter) that the great choral fugue 'He smote all the first born of Egypt' from his Oratorio 'Israel in Egypt' is in fact a choral transcription of the first fugue in this video HWV 605! I also played the last fugue in this video. HWV 610, for my ABRSM Grade 8 exam. Was a lot of fun to play, I adore fugues!
@@goodman1127 I totally agree with you: Bach was the Great Master of fugues. Still notice I didn't say these fugues are better, but that I love them more. In a sense, they are more human and dramatic. And if you go through them very carefully, you will probably notice a lot of intricacies and sophisticated counterpoint.
@@musiccomposition514 I didn’t say anything wrong about Handel’s fugues but as it concerns Bach’s fugues they have perfect structure and musicaly are top notch. I see a little mess in Handel’s structure in case od resolving tensions. Bach was true master because he has no limitation in horisontal thinking. Handel was very very good in counterpoint but in fugues was not that level as Bach’s one.
@@goodman1127 Bach's superiority in fugal composition is obvious IMO, but there is no accounting for taste. Any composer who sits down to write a fugue takes an immediate second seat to Bach from the start. To surpass JSB I imagine one would have to invent a whole new form of harmony, akin to discovering a whole new color outside the spectrum of all known colors in this universe, he was that exhaustive in beauty, profundity, richness of harmonic design and symmetrical perfection. Zelenka and Stölzel IMO probably came the closest to Bach's equal in fugue, but even they were light-years away
@@Jalapablo thanks for your opinion but there is no way Zelenka and Stölzel to be close to JSB. According to what you have said maybe Schostakovitch tried to surpass Bach in his 24 preludes and fugues. I would say he was succeded in his new approach and musically it’s top notch
I love these fugues. I don't get the comparision with Bach. Handel's music has a different sensibility and should be appreciated for what is it in it's own right.
@@SisselOnline the two are surely inextricably linked? The differing temperaments of these two geniuses manifest themselves in different technical procedures. Bach was more introspective which manifests itself in finely wrought, perfect counterpoint. Handel was more of an extrovert so he paints with broader brushstrokes and his fugal writing is looser, but still very effective in his way. Even though they both belonged to the high baroque stylistically, they were in some way diametrically opposed in what they set out to achieve through music. At their level of writing, preferences become subjective:-)
Another composition that uses the A minor fugue as a model is an obscure Requiem by Von Winter, for the Kyrie Eleison movement. It's a very striking subject.
No, he did not. The descending diminished 7th and descending chromatic passages had been used in subjects of imitative keyboard pieces since the 1600s, generations before Bach and Handel were born. These patterns were also part of the royal theme propounded to Bach by the king in Prussia in 1747. Furthermore, the chromatically descending tetrachord (e.g., a g# g f# f e) was the conventional lament motif from the 17th century through the late 18th century.
I feel like this is great at first glance but the reason being that its overly repetitious with typical motifs and countersubjects (i mean even for a fugue) and derivative. No. 5 is bit more mature though.
Recordemos que estas fugas como casi toda la música para clavecin de Handel, fueron escritas en la juventud en Italia y Hamburgo, muchos años antes de su madurez en Londres.
I don't know why people waste so much time and brainwork on fugues. Fugues are rarely, if ever, inspiring. The question comes up: Where are we going with the piece?
@@SisselOnline To Sissel Online: You may be right. However the various fugal counterpoints seem to either bury the theme or distracts the attention away. I know the counterpoint is supposed to enhance the harmony, but in so doing, the net results sounds like a group of people all talking about something different. I don't find this restful nor inspiring. Two or more voices can give a new paradigm in the intent and expressivity of the theme, true, but too often the regimen of the fugue form and voice completion subverts the overall listenability.
@@steverodak2230 your counterpoint's meaning is actually remade at present era. At that time, the harmony is not playing the crucial part i.e. counterpoint > harmony Or else why those Baroque comoosers rarely composed harmonically interesting compositions except for Bach and some spark composers?
@@SisselOnline Yes, you raise a good point. It seems some composers will tweak the voices for harmonic input whereas others will maintain the perfect independence and integrity of the voice. I think Bach's G Major fugue (Gigue) is one of his finest achievements blending these two concepts. I find the Renaissance Era fascinating because of the peculiarly inspirational results. I'd like to cite Giovanni Gabrieli's religious works wherein his voice leading and harmonic architecture powerfully unite. I got "hooked" on his music through the E. Power Biggs album featuring Biggs as organist, the Gregg Smith Singer, Texas Boys Choir, and Edward Tarr Brass Ensemble. recorded at San Marco Byzantine Chapel. Here Gabrieli's music is boldly rendered and gloriously saturates the air. And this music was written well over 400 years ago! I am so grateful for this album and their effort to produce it.
I love fugues like these very much because to me they are keyboard versions of the polyphonic music I sing at liturgy (albeit not explicitly religious) - truly inspiring
Not gonna comment on how good a subject is, it's meaningless to say as the whole point of a fugue is not only just subject. PDQ Bach's fugues, tho laughable for the subject, are good examples.
Vivaldi, Marcello or Scarlatti almost did not compose fugues. Don't be so ignorant. Handel, along with Bach, are the greatest exponents of fugue and baroque polyphony, and not only in keyboard music, but also in choral music.
@@SisselOnline He is extremely ignorant. He named Vivaldi who composed almost no fugues and his music is totally homophonic. The same Marcello or Domenico Scarlatti. Rameau was not an expert on fugues. Handel was superior to all of them since he was trained in the polyphonic school of northern Germany.
@@franr.3691 i‘m not saying his fugal writing was terrible. His subjects were trash is what i was saying. Händel absolutely belongs to the greatest baroque composers and in many other categories overshadowed all of them (except for Bach)
![George Frideric Handel - Concerto grosso Op.6 n.11 A major [1739]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/DixtrNMOyKA/mqdefault.jpg)
0:02 Double Fugue in G minor
3:00 Fugue in G major
7:23 Double Fugue in Bb Major
10:37 Fugue in B minor
15:55 Fugue in A minor
19:27 Fugue in C minor
I originally thought to copy and paste my analysis in bilibili to here tmr LOL
Thx anyways
@@SisselOnline np that's for my own reference
@@ryanchanwz kkkkkk
También podrías agregar la Fuga en Fa mayor HWV 611. Saludos
ruclips.net/video/MbrOZQjmRl4/видео.html
Merci
I love Handel's fugues. They have different textures and are very dramatic
Wow, no.5 is so chromatic and so daring- what a subject!
Try Handel's Israel in Egypt Oratorio, the chorus "They loathed to drink of the river". It's basically this piece but enhanced and longer. Stunning :)
These are beautifully and authentically performed!
Few would challenge Bach as the king of fugue. For some, he might at times be too neutral, involved and restive. Handel was a humanitarian to the ground. He bypassed the scholastic and otherworldly. He is earthy, open, freewheeling. From small to large scale, his sturdy assurance is one of the wonders of music.
I get your drift and tend to agree. Most of Handels"s oratorios, however, could not be described as being thoroughly earth-bound, especially "Messiah."
I have just found out (thanks to a youtube commenter) that the great choral fugue 'He smote all the first born of Egypt' from his Oratorio 'Israel in Egypt' is in fact a choral transcription of the first fugue in this video HWV 605!
I also played the last fugue in this video. HWV 610, for my ABRSM Grade 8 exam. Was a lot of fun to play, I adore fugues!
Hmmmm the fugue subject is similar but not exact transcription definitely
@@SisselOnline no, not exact transposition, i used the wrong word. but both subjects are identical .
These fugues are used Handel's Concerti Grossi
Correct. The G major is reused as the 3rd movement Allegro in the 3rd concerto of the Op. 3 set.
These are great fugues and wonderfully played. I love them more than Bach's ones and they definitely deserve more recognition.
Bach’s fugues are better. Bach was unbeatable in art of fugue.
@@goodman1127 I totally agree with you: Bach was the Great Master of fugues. Still notice I didn't say these fugues are better, but that I love them more. In a sense, they are more human and dramatic. And if you go through them very carefully, you will probably notice a lot of intricacies and sophisticated counterpoint.
@@musiccomposition514 I didn’t say anything wrong about Handel’s fugues but as it concerns Bach’s fugues they have perfect structure and musicaly are top notch. I see a little mess in Handel’s structure in case od resolving tensions. Bach was true master because he has no limitation in horisontal thinking. Handel was very very good in counterpoint but in fugues was not that level as Bach’s one.
@@goodman1127 Bach's superiority in fugal composition is obvious IMO, but there is no accounting for taste. Any composer who sits down to write a fugue takes an immediate second seat to Bach from the start. To surpass JSB I imagine one would have to invent a whole new form of harmony, akin to discovering a whole new color outside the spectrum of all known colors in this universe, he was that exhaustive in beauty, profundity, richness of harmonic design and symmetrical perfection. Zelenka and Stölzel IMO probably came the closest to Bach's equal in fugue, but even they were light-years away
@@Jalapablo thanks for your opinion but there is no way Zelenka and Stölzel to be close to JSB. According to what you have said maybe Schostakovitch tried to surpass Bach in his 24 preludes and fugues. I would say he was succeded in his new approach and musically it’s top notch
I love these fugues. I don't get the comparision with Bach. Handel's music has a different sensibility and should be appreciated for what is it in it's own right.
They are comparing them on techniques, not totally about musicality.
@@SisselOnline the two are surely inextricably linked? The differing temperaments of these two geniuses manifest themselves in different technical procedures. Bach was more introspective which manifests itself in finely wrought, perfect counterpoint. Handel was more of an extrovert so he paints with broader brushstrokes and his fugal writing is looser, but still very effective in his way. Even though they both belonged to the high baroque stylistically, they were in some way diametrically opposed in what they set out to achieve through music. At their level of writing, preferences become subjective:-)
So are people haha 😂
I hold no comments between them.
bach is better because he sells more tickets and is played more often at recitals.
Each to their own. Handel will always be number 1 in my heart;-) ❤
Bach used this Fugue in a minor as a model for his own fugues in the Musical Offering.
Not sure abt that, tho
See Humphrey Sassoon’s “JS Bach’s Royal Theme and It’s Musical Sources: Royal Peculiar” in The Musical Times.
Ooooo
Another composition that uses the A minor fugue as a model is an obscure Requiem by Von Winter, for the Kyrie Eleison movement. It's a very striking subject.
No, he did not. The descending diminished 7th and descending chromatic passages had been used in subjects of imitative keyboard pieces since the 1600s, generations before Bach and Handel were born. These patterns were also part of the royal theme propounded to Bach by the king in Prussia in 1747. Furthermore, the chromatically descending tetrachord (e.g., a g# g f# f e) was the conventional lament motif from the 17th century through the late 18th century.
Fifth fugue is from «They loath to drink of the river»?
May hv referenced from, as the latter part of the subject here is altered.
❤❤
omg why it sounds in a minor?
I feel like this is great at first glance but the reason being that its overly repetitious with typical motifs and countersubjects (i mean even for a fugue) and derivative.
No. 5 is bit more mature though.
lol
Recordemos que estas fugas como casi toda la música para clavecin de Handel, fueron escritas en la juventud en Italia y Hamburgo, muchos años antes de su madurez en Londres.
**’
I don't know why people waste so much time and brainwork on fugues. Fugues are rarely, if ever, inspiring.
The question comes up: Where are we going with the piece?
For Inspiring part, it all depends on how u read it.
@@SisselOnline To Sissel Online: You may be right. However the various
fugal counterpoints seem to either bury the theme or distracts the attention away. I know the counterpoint
is supposed to enhance the harmony, but in so doing, the net results sounds like a group of people
all talking about something different. I don't find this restful nor inspiring. Two or more voices can give
a new paradigm in the intent and expressivity of the theme, true, but too often the regimen of the fugue form and voice completion subverts the overall listenability.
@@steverodak2230 your counterpoint's meaning is actually remade at present era.
At that time, the harmony is not playing the crucial part i.e. counterpoint > harmony
Or else why those Baroque comoosers rarely composed harmonically interesting compositions except for Bach and some spark composers?
@@SisselOnline Yes, you raise a good point. It seems some composers will tweak the voices
for harmonic input whereas others will maintain the perfect independence and integrity of the voice.
I think Bach's G Major fugue (Gigue) is one of his finest achievements blending these two concepts.
I find the Renaissance Era fascinating because of the peculiarly inspirational results. I'd like to cite
Giovanni Gabrieli's religious works wherein his voice leading and harmonic architecture powerfully
unite. I got "hooked" on his music through the E. Power Biggs album featuring Biggs as organist, the Gregg Smith Singer, Texas Boys Choir, and Edward Tarr Brass Ensemble. recorded at San Marco Byzantine Chapel. Here Gabrieli's music is boldly rendered and gloriously saturates the air. And this music was
written well over 400 years ago! I am so grateful for this album and their effort to produce it.
I love fugues like these very much because to me they are keyboard versions of the polyphonic music I sing at liturgy (albeit not explicitly religious) - truly inspiring
His fugue subjects were horrible and laughable compared to those of Vivaldi, Marcello, Buxtehude, Rameau, Scarlatti and obviously Bach
Not gonna comment on how good a subject is, it's meaningless to say as the whole point of a fugue is not only just subject. PDQ Bach's fugues, tho laughable for the subject, are good examples.
Yeah sure… ruclips.net/video/rnM-ULNxDus/видео.html
Vivaldi, Marcello or Scarlatti almost did not compose fugues. Don't be so ignorant. Handel, along with Bach, are the greatest exponents of fugue and baroque polyphony, and not only in keyboard music, but also in choral music.
@@SisselOnline He is extremely ignorant. He named Vivaldi who composed almost no fugues and his music is totally homophonic. The same Marcello or Domenico Scarlatti. Rameau was not an expert on fugues. Handel was superior to all of them since he was trained in the polyphonic school of northern Germany.
@@franr.3691 i‘m not saying his fugal writing was terrible. His subjects were trash is what i was saying. Händel absolutely belongs to the greatest baroque composers and in many other categories overshadowed all of them (except for Bach)