Pounds, shillings, and pence: a history of English coinage
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- Опубликовано: 17 дек 2020
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I talk for a bit the history of English coinage, and the problems of maintaining a good currency. Once or twice I might stray off topic, but I end with an explanation of why the system worked so well.
Picture credits:
40 librae weight
Martinvl, CC BY-SA 3.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
Sceat K series, and others
By Classical Numismatic Group, Inc. www.cngcoins.com, CC BY-SA 3.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
William I penny, and Charles II crown
The Portable Antiquities Scheme/ The Trustees of the British Museum, CC BY-SA 2.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
Bust of Charlemagne
By Beckstet - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
Edward VI crown
By CNG - www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?Coi..., CC BY-SA 3.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
Charles II guinea
Gregory Edmund, CC BY-SA 4.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
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ERRATA
I woke up the following day after publishing this with an annoying thought buzzing in my head. Had I misread the AD&D Players' Handbook? I checked it, and saw that I had. Sorry Gary.
The point of electrum was to be worth ten times the value of silver, not to be worth half that of gold, so 1ep=10sp would have been a useful and clear way to express the conversion rate. When writing out a list of values like this, it is worthwhile being consistent or comprehensive. Anyway, yes, if 1ep=10sp and 20sp=1gp, then it is true that 2ep=1gp. It would also help to use a bigger typeface.
Also, I managed a worse error, which was to to assign the slang terms 'bob' and 'tanner' to the wrong coins. I know how this happened too. Partly it was reading an incorrect source, partly it was a failure of layout by me of my notes, and partly it was because I was brought up in a decimalised world which used pre-decimal coinage, so the coins familiar to me in my youth were the shilling, which was worth 5p (five NEW pence) and the florin, which was worth 10p, and said on it "two shillings". This meant that the 'bob' piece was worth 5p which is close to the 6d of the sixpence, which is why I conflated these two in my oxygen-starved head. A shilling was a 'bob' and a sixpence was a 'tanner'.
Argh! A THIRD error has surfaced, and the video has yet to be up a full day! The chap in the 1913 bank says that a 1913 sovereign is 18 carat gold. Wrong. They were 22 carat gold. They were so valuable in this period that they used to weigh them all individually in the mints to check them.
And yes, a FOURTH error: when I show the sub-multiples of 100, the graphic misses out the number four. I know exactly how this happened. When I checked the webpage from the new version of my website, from which the numbers were taken, I see that the formatting had been screwed up where my web-designer had put instead of , with the result that 5 and 4 came out as 54, which I had then corrected to 5.
By Crikey - a FIFTH error! A diligent viewer has written in to point out a contradiction in my stated values of the sovereign. Further research now suggests that the Henry VII sovereign was originally valued at twenty shillings (today one is up for auction and they demand a £20,000 deposit just to get the right to bid, and the last one sold in 2013 for about $500,000).
I really wish I could put on-screen corrections, as once I could. Please, RUclips, bring back that feature.
sound is a lot better this time.
Money
You've also omitted mentioning that auctioneer's commission on livestock, horses etc (and other things until recently) is 5% - so the purchaser would pay in guineas but the vendor would receive their payment in pounds with the auctioneer pocketing (pouching?) the extra shilling.
If you've never made a mistake, you've never made anything. Anyway, you're too young to have actually used pre-decimal currency and learn the vernacular first hand.
Do you think that the old money having a base of 12, had anything to do with the fact that there are 4 fingers with 3 joints on either hand, easily countable with the thumb? I'm only guessing here, but it could be useful if the majority of the population was relatively illiterate. I may be wide of the mark but, considering that body parts were used for measuring things, thumbs, hands, cubits and feet, etc,, well, it just got me thinking.
Does anyone realise how incredibly hard it is to tell a great story, without stops, for one hour? No breaks, no interruptions, no autocue.......incredible. Lindy is a genius.
And keep it interesting
I'm thinking it requires a high concentration of caffeine... And maybe a bit of ADD in his case... :)
Guys do it under police grillings every day.
Agreed.
Lloyd has excellent planning and writes prompts he follows - they seemed to be up and to the right of the camera as he looked towards us.
i agree, beige man good.
Australia went to decimal currency in 1966, after having used the British system since colonisation. My Grandmother (b.1901) til the day she died, still converted back and forth between the two systems in her head because it was what she was used to. It made shopping with her loads of fun for a child. I was 3 when we decimalised, but thanks to Grandma I can still calculate "the old money". Thanks for the extended history lesson.
Grand pa born a victorian 1895 would ask me in 1971 how many groats to a crown. Try that one.
my dad born in the 60's still remembers the old system, as well as the change to metric
@@johnaron9926 One dollar equals sixpence? I did not realise the American Dollar could cheaply be used as toilet paper in those days.
All the Australian decimal coins are actually based on the old values you know, well other than the bronze coins
good to know there are options. some day this year will be the Profits of Doom year. the rich will get richer.
Quinea - 21 Shillings
Sovereign - 20 Shillings
Mark - 160p
Noble - 80p
Angel - 80p
Crown - 5 Shillings
Florin - 2 Shillings
Shilling - 12p
Testoon - 12p
Sixpence / Tanner - 6p
Groat - 4p
Threepence - 3p
Tuppence - 2p
Ha’penny / Obol - 1/2p
Farthing - 1/4p
Nowhere near as complicated as I thought : 59 Minute video
.... it's Lindy, so, yeah.
That's really short for Lindy's standards.
You new here?
Lindy takes us on little adventures. Where his brain goes no one knkws at the start but it's always fun.
He's keeping it interesting for the layman. So obviously not going to see a proper lindybeige length vid
"[Electrum] was deliberately mixed such that one electrum piece was worth 10 times the value of a silver piece".
D&D handbook:
1 gold coin = 20 silver coins
1 gold coin = 2 electrum coins
-> 1 electrum coin = 10 silver coins
Well, then he did get it right after all, didn't he?
I came looking for this comment.
What DnD edition
@@thewingedporpoise AD&D (1978)
@@nicholasvandervelden450 I see, nowadays it's 5 silver to the electrum (to create an easy 10 copper to 1 silver, 10 silver to 1 gold, 10 gold to 1 platinum system that's easy to remember, and yet I still get asked how many copper is in a silver when I DM)
This is what I thought as well
I discovered that you can still legally write personal cheques in Guineas - which is rather nice for birthdays or anniversaries.
You just have to include the equivalent decimal currency in the 'numbers box'
Hence a cheque made out for Fifty Guineas would need to say £52.50 (which is of course 50 pounds plus 50 shillings).
The Guinea was got rid off in 1816 and changed to a sovereign(20 schillings or 240d pence)the upper class and the horsey set (mostly buying and selling horses at auction)still use it though as a traditional thing
@@redrb26dett Ah interesting. Prices quoted in Guineas were still commonly used for medium ticket items like coats and television sets when I was young. I don't really know why.
@@LostsTVandRadio expensive items bought mainly by upper and middle class they were a real luxury items for the working class but the sixty’s were a time of change some good some bad
@Eli OberoN Guinea was £1 they changed the name to sovereign when they reduced it’s value from 21 schilling to 20 schilling to stop confusion but the upper class still used it’s value to distance them for the working class in a act of snobbishness the Irish Guinea is the same value and used by the horsey set (the realm of the upper class as most high pedigree horses will cost the same as a Kensington home to buy,train and race then stud if it does well)
Would see Guineas refered to in Agatha Christie novels a lot.
I've been on a research binge on pre-decimal coinage. As an American, I find it fascinating. This is the best synopsis I've seen so far!
"so you make your own dies?" - "yes - that's hard part" - badum-tish
ah, metalworker's humour never changes
heh
You might say it never tarnishes
You know, I didn't catch that till now, that gave me a proper laugh.
I scrolled looking for this comment and was not disappointed.
You could say, they "Die Hard"
... I'll see myself out.
I'm fairly sure he just continues ranting when the camera is off
LOL
It's more a case of preparing the imaging equipment rather than the Beige.
More likely faints, and is given oxygen, like a young Meatloaf at several points in his concerts.
Lol. That's Brilliant. So Funny. clever answer. he only stops the video to eat etc then rant on about something else
@@ramblingrob4693 He has a feeding tube permanently installed , the same way as the waste tube because it's too distracting when he has the tube up his nose, he barely even notices this way! 😉😂
I loved this video. I am Irish & my grandmother somehow manage to give the old LSD names to eurocent coins. She also complained she had to change money twice in her life
I keep coming back to watch this thing. NVM its great educational value, it's just HILARIOUS!! Great job...
Did not realize this was a hour when I clicked on it. Did not regret spending an hour watching it.
I can never regret any time spent with Lindybeige. He fascinates me.
"In fact ONE-THIRD of all numbers are divisible by THREE!"
Classic Lindy
As was the Guinea. Divisible by 3, I mean.
Half of all numbers are divisible by two.
@@corydorastube All numbers are divisible by two if you try hard enough. Hence the existence of the half-crown piece.
@@WalkaCrookedLine Two and a half children...
And one-third of all numbers is the same number of numbers as all numbers. So all numbers are divisible by three. QED.
Nail sizes in the US are denoted in "penny" to this day and use the 'd' abbreviation, as in a "10 penny" (10d) nail. Wikipedia reports:
Penny sizes originally referred to the price for a hundred (100) or long hundred (120) nails in England in the 15th century: the larger the nail, the higher the cost per long hundred. The system remained in use in England into the 20th century,[citation needed] but is obsolete there today. Nails are still designated in penny sizes in the United States. [...] The d is an abbreviation for denarius, a Roman coin similar to a penny; this was the abbreviation for the monetary penny in the United Kingdom before decimalisation.
I remember getting UK stamps before decimalization, wondering what "d" meant.
Penny weights?
I just found this on RUclips! As an American coin collector, I had no idea what anything was in the English coinage system, but this video was entertaining and enlightening! Thank-you for putting this together, Sir! Beautifully executed. Your parents would be proud!
So when the romans left, then came the after-denari mints.
'check, please'
You came at this pun from a good Angle.
Dude!
Yes, you should get your cloak.
🌞
I just want to thank Lloyd for introducing me to LSD, this has changed my life. I think more people should advocate for LSD
Everyone should have some LSD.
The LSD is my favourite part of Britain's history :D
L.S.D. changed my life too.
Yahoo..!!
Kim in Oz.😎
I grew up with LSD and it were shit. Yes I knew exactly how many turrpences I would need to buy a 2/- Airfix Supermarine Spitfire IX (with decals and paint scheme for Johnny Johnson); but trying to answer questions about money, set by maths teachers that couldn't teach bases, makes me glad the sadists were restricted to base 10 after decimalisation.
@@glynwelshkarelian3489 Yeah it does seem like it lends itself more to complex financial calculations and accountancy than buying a chocolate bar. Being born in 99 I've no clue though.
the fact you can weigh old currency is amazingly wicked smart...
Lindy... your ability to talk without seeming like your looking at a teleprompter is amazing... i really feel that your not, if you are, you do an amazing job of making it seemless
if you dont, then thats even more amazing that your doing it all from memory
thanks for the best of content
now i really want a gold Guinea :P
I think it's pretty obvious he's reading.
@@drcthru7672 idk, if hes reading, hes doing a damn good job of adding natural inflections that most people lose due to not being able to read ahead of what they are saying
I heard somewhere (but don't quote me on it) that he's not even writing a script or anything. He just turns on the camera (after doing some research anyway)
@@UrskogTrolle i could belive it, the way he moves and talks, he clearly knows his subject matter VERY well.
Technically you can weigh anything with mass, you might be interested to find out that modern coins can also be weighed and on a related note, this is how vending machines work.
I want to be a teacher, specifically a history teacher. However, I decided to pursue nursing. However, it is this man who I aspire to be like if I ever do change my mind again. Storytelling is so much fun but also takes so much thought and skill. This man obviously has what it takes to inspire an entire generation.
'Julius Career pitched up at tea time on a weekend' is a reference to a joke in 'Asterix in Britain'?
Well spotted. 1 beige point.
Oh you just have to remind me of that movie
Oh i thought it was a goon show reference
@@farrington4918 There was a movie? I only remember the comic books when I was a kid.
@@aussiebloke609 Top marks! Keep on remembering the comic. Just the comic.
I got the Asterix in Britain reference! Attacking at tea time on a weekend is hardly the behaviour of a gentleman.
But it is the way to defeat the English. And fair play has no place in a struggle of life and death.
Yeah I was trying to figure out if it was an Asterix reference, or there was some kind of actual historical story to it.
And what’s more they trampled across our beautifully manicured lawns the cads.
Lesser then that, they come back and brings more friends and stays for more than a weekend.
@@meandmyvelo6380 I imagine our Native Americans feel the same about Europeans coming to their shores and inviting themselves to dinner perpetually and all that goes with it
My New Favorite Channel. Absolutely Brilliant.
I got to visit London the Summer of '69 which was at the tag end of pence and shillings. I was highly numerate and thought it was loads of fun. Two years later I was back and now it was New Pence. Many small prices had not changed which meant they had gone UP 140% (240d=100NP).
Wait… that’s how they did it? By keeping the penny the same, but lowering the pound?
Dang, so that means I keep doing the math wrong whenever I calculate the inflation rates from pre 1972.
wait, you said 1 electrum piece is was made to be worth 10 silver pennies. Or half a gold penny. And the D&D book says 2 electrum pieces are worth a gold piece. Doesn't that mean they actually got that correct?
That's how I heard it to, but haven't read the book so wondered if he'd misquoted (he confused the values of bob and tanner later for instance)
I came down here to comment this as well. It really annoyed me.
Blanded, same. Glad I'm not the only one lol
2 elec's are one gold so that means it's a dime, or 10. Gary was on point
I wondered this too, and a google search tells me that d&d gold is worth ten silver, electrum is 1/2 gold or 5 silver. So the mistake is earlier in the video when he says they got the gold to silver ratio correct.. Although that book seems to have had some history. Maybe they've changed that since the book came out?
@@wouterdevlieger1002 Over the course of D&D editions, the gp/sp ratio was changed. The easier math of 10:1 won over the accuracy angle of old.
"Don't muck around with the currency, the penalties are harsh. You've been warned."
@@lostalone9320 😇
I love your content and this video! I even have it downloaded so I can hear you go on about pre-decimal English currency. As an American I always thought the whole thing was strange, but you really make the case for how convenient it was, especially when the Penny was what most people used on a daily basis, and the Pound was a large amount of money.
You are a great teacher! Your lecture was not only fascinating, it was also very entertaining. I had a wonderful time watching it and laughed many times. In addition, I learned why we sell eggs in dozens, something I wondered about in the past. Thank you for sharing your lecture and I will pick up the offer of Acorn TV. Best to you.
Me watching other RUclipsrs: "This is dragging on a bit. 10 minutes left! Only half way through, I have better things to do."
Me watching Lindybeige: "Where did that hour go?"
Ah, reassuring time with Lloyd. Tea and crisps set. Proceed, good sir.
"Tea and Crisps" ? Really? You must live in Scotland?
@@allanlarmour7460 nope, America.
Ooh, thoughts of teatime! I'd go for the pikelets with real butter, but if the gout's playing up, then just a nice dry arrowroot biscuit.
@@europademon Really? That's unusual, tea and Crisps. You mean potato crisps right?
Tea and toast is a thing, tea and scones is another thing and I guess tea and Crisps is a thing too, who knew!
@@allanlarmour7460 is tea and crisps Scottish? Haha
A fantastic video! Really interigueing and the jumper is peak fashion 10/10 will subscribe
I’ve only just discovered this channel and I’m already hooked.
I’m 69 and remember posh shops displaying prices in guineas. (65gns)
I also remember the owner of our local cycle shop following decimalisation working out the purchase tax (pre VAT) and adding it up in his head in £/s/d then looking at a conversion chart to decimal coinage.
"I deserve no credit for the quality of the coinage in medieval England."
Sentences that could only make sense being uttered from Lindybeige for $9999 please
Someone needs to do an out of context compilation
@@craigmurphy1204 I believe there is one already
@@VladBokachev nice
Finally, a cash reward divisible by three!
A crown was also called a dollar and now we are out of Europe we should reverse decimalisation and ban metric and before people say no we can’t ask your wife if she fancy’s going to the pub for a pint or ask your children the speed limit in Britain so reversing decimalisation is no problem because it’s how we still count in imperial it only means children after learn two ways of counting fyi metric should be the same as foreign languages the child’s choice not forced
Normans: *Invade England*
Normans: "This is fine. Carry on."
Normans like normality!
Jedi business. Go back to your drinks.
Not really.
This is a wonderful video! His enthusiasm is great!!
This is the most entertaining video about coinage I have ever seen!
I remember asking my mum, when I was quite young, maybe I was 7 or 8 “why do coins have these lines?” The milled edge, I was told it was help blind people. So for 50 odd years I’ve believed that but now I know the _real_ reason.
I was told the same thing. Though now I think they do use lines of different patterns to identify the value for the sight limited.
In case of ,Euro' coins it is really for blind persons.
The purpose has evolved over the years, just because they originally were there to prevent people cutting off bits and pieces of the coins doesn't mean that they aren't there to help the blind now. Looks like in 1947 they took silver out of UK coinage altogether, switching to cupronickel, at which point the material value of the coin wasn't related to the value the coin represented anyway, so cutting bits off of it wouldn't have helped anyone.
I had the weird experience of being told the correct version and the blind people urban legend at similar times at an early age. This lead to many years of trying to fathom what was going on... :/ Turns out adults were just pretending to know stuff the whole time I was a kid. A tradition I've carried on. :P
It gets even more interesting when you start dealing with coins that were designed to be cut. So your gold mark would have a recessed cross imprinted into the surface where you would cut the coin into halves or quarters if needed. IIRC, it's the kind of thing that crops up for 10-20 years and then disappears as people realize it actually isn't that good of an idea.
Everyone else on RUclips "Here's a special Christmas themed video"
Lindy "British coins are pretty nifty, let me tell you!"
AHH but that's where you are wrong. There's often some coins baked in the Christmas pud.
American here; American bad at math here to be more specific. That being said, this is really cool to learn about and the sub-multiples of an even numbered currency base seems more, idk, sophisticated than the prime one. Very cool to learn about alongside some of the history of British coinage!
Brilliant video, Lindybeige!
I sat down with my dad one evening and mapped out all of the conversions of shillings, bobs, thrpny bits, crowns etc and it probably too more than an hour!
Me " oh I really am rather bored"
YT " wanna hear this bloke prattle on about money from the past in a different country on the other side of the world "
Me " well, yes actually"
That Country on the other side of the world is here. I`m in Scotland and i was raised on the currency. It sounds complicated but, it was fairly easy to use, the problems began when it changed over to decimalisation.
My sentiments exactly! LOL
Actually austrailia used the same currency as here in the uk until decimalisation
@@johnsalt19 Really ? I didn`t know that. I always thought Australia used the Dollar. You learn something new everyday.
@@andyhughes5885 yeah mate we were pounds shillings and pence till around 1966 i think
Guineas: Auction houses charge in guineas, and pay the owner in pounds, keeping the shillings (5%).
They charge a fair bit more than 5% these days!
Interesting, but that is a bit less, then 5% rate. It's 1/21 or approximately 4.76%
@@basilefff which rounded up is 5% for ease of use.
I can remember the cries of " greedy ba $?@€ds " when the livestock markets started charging more than 5% commission.
@@sonofnone116 that's true. I'm just nitpicking :)
Loved this! Easy to watch, easy to understand and …. Fun!!
I haven't listened to one of your videos for a while. This reminds me why; listening to you exhausts me.
Lindybeige: posts a history of British coins.
Me (a finance nerd): 2020 IS REDEEMED!
I would rather be crucified than study currency again, hoping this video does redeem 2020.
Also have you heard of the great acceleration? Basically a bunch of graphs saying 2020 is the new normal and it's all downhill from here unless we can have a mode of production that does not necessitate compound interest growth for mere survival
History of English coins.
@@iraholden3606 yes but there’s always doomsayers so I try not to pay it much mind.
@@jacobprice2579 You sound like your head is buried in the sand. Ofc the media sensationalise everything, that doesn't mean that everything is going to be alright forever, our species has faced apocalypse before and survived and we can do it again, we can also fail and get wiped out, all I'm saying is hope for the best and plan for the worst.
People complaining about how supposedly uniquely bad 2020 was are just procrastinating the inevitable, things are going to get much worse but if we plan for it we can ensure that things will get better, if we instead close our eyes and scream lalala things will only get even worse and may never improve.
"if you cut bits off our coins, we will cut bits off you"
Didn't the Patrician of Ankh-Morpork say that?
@@markfergerson2145 not sure.
Fair rule.
'TIS BUT A SCRATCH! Hey, whatya doin' with that' knife, Mate? I meant "ON THE COIN"! Back off! OW! MY BALLS!
Thank you for the explanation ,i have always wondered about English coinage .
The Ad had me cracking up, haha. Way to be the one RUclipsr who can get me to sit through an ad for laughs. ;) Great and informative video, as always.
44:42 In 1984, there's a passage where Winston goes into a bar and meets an old man, who complains about the beer being served in half-litres and litres. Apparently, a half-litre was too little and a full litre made him want to pee.
...despite the fact a pint is actually just a tiny bit more than half a liter.
@@abc68130 It's actually a tiny bit less which makes it weirder
@@bernardi5919 a US pint is a little less, but an imperial pint is a bit more.
@@abc68130 And therefore better
@@abc68130 A pint is 13.8% bigger than half a litre. There are 568ml(wtf?) to a pint, and believe me, if you are used to pints, you know the difference. Unfortunately, many of the decent ales are now sold in 500ml bottles, which is confusing, unsatisfying and the reason I tend to drink too much
16:20 Seems fair, they were cutting bits of the coins so he cut bits off them.
So glad I found this video, so interesting and you are a brilliant presenter so I am now a subscribers looking forward to learning more!
Love the soft cover Player's Handbook. It looks well loved.
Dr: "That will be ten guineas for the pox treatment."
Patient: "Would you like it in fowl or pigs?"
Pigs please
got any dogs?
"Just shipping coins back and forth, and no actual goods are changing hands. This is no way to run an economy!"
dude, keep it down! are you trying to get killed?
He literally just described the stock market lmao
I would love to watch Lindy do a lecture on the history of banking and usury through the ancient, midieval, and modern eras. Something something nine shillings and one pence.
Haha FOREX market go brrrr
@@williancruz9657 Even more on the nose for the currency exchange markets.
24:30 "This is madness" = This is arbitrage
Another good thing about the 240 pence pound and the British Imperial weights & measures was the mental agility that people acquired. We worked with units of base 16 ounces to a pound & base 14 pounds to a stone, for weight, as well as base 12 for currency .Also with currency calculations we worked on 3 column mathematics.
Then we worked in base 20 for fluid ounces that made up one pint and base 8 for pints into imperial gallons. Finally we worked on base 12 for calculating inches into feet and base 3 for converting feet to yards then 1760 for yards (5280 feet) to a statute mile!
Regarding errors, the bank teller at Beamish mistook a shilling (1s) for a florin (2s) when comparing the weights of a half crown that equalled the florin and sixpence.
Mark A. Flynn in his book "the Labyrinth" describes how the American $ sign comes from the Spanish dollar sign, which has two lines, and it stands for the two trees in the garden of Eden with the snake in it. And that the symbol came from the idea that after the fall, we all have to work for our money. I don't know if that's true, but always thought it made a lot of sense.
Lloyd: "It's nowhere near as complicated as I thought"
Video: 59 minutes long
Only Lindybeige's soothing voice could get me to watch an hour long video on a coinage I will never use.
Lol, pinky and teh smell
Just hit the electrum bit at 18:00 , and time is once again a flat circle, as I came to this video to find inspiration for coinage in my D&D game. Amazing!
As an American who does a lot of sewing, I also recognized the convenience of 240. A yard is three feet, or 36 inches, which is really easy to divide up into halves, quarters, and thirds. Also no one complains that 360 degrees on a compass is weird or primitive. Can you imagine if we used a system of 100 for that? It would be bonkers.
We just use a system pi for circles when necessary
Lloyd's comment about the ease of dividing 240 was especially important in the medieval period, given that Arabic numerals weren't in widespread use in Europe until the late 15th century. Having a number you can easily divide in your head, and that usually equals a whole number with no remainder, makes Roman numerals less of a pain in the behind.
Number systems that don't use base 10 are common throughout history, which is why we have 360 degree circles and 12 hour clocks of 60 minutes. Because we have embraced the arabic base 10 numeral system, decimalized money and measurement make sense. But really, what makes the decimalized metric system 'good' has less to do with the choice of base 10 and more to do with the rational relationships between the different things that are being measured. And it's interesting to me that 'decimalization' is such potent flamebait on the internet, when the use of hexadecimal, duodecimal, binary, etc are all pretty commonplace and hardly ever even considered.
the " 240 system " was vastly easier for both calculating in the head and for visual measurements as you can more or less visually see multiple low base relationships base ten is really only convenient because we have ten fingers, calculators, and reliable measuring devices.
@@vidard9863 ... except that you also have 24 knuckles on your fingers (not inc thumbs, which you can use as placekeepers), calculators can have additional keys and additional numerals can be inserted (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A,B,C,D,E,F in hex... F+1 = 10 using our standard arabic-based place value system), and measuring precision isn't tied to the numeric base (0.01 in decimal is a larger number than 0.01 in hex, but physical methods for measuring them are no different). In the end, it is the historic adoption of the arabic base 10 system and associated mathematics by the europeans, for its innovative concepts of zero and place value, that is the reason we use base 10. The europeans embraced and extended arabic mathematics and propagated it when they dominated world politics. That base 10 is our standard is a completely historical, and not fundamentally mathematical, result.
@@iroll read my post again. you do not measure anything with math or a calculator. you measure with things like rulers. you can take a foot long stick and judge three inches much easier and more accurately than 30 cm on a meter stick because 1/4 is easier to guess than 30%. if you have a pound of grain and a simple scale, you can break it down to 1 ounce units accurately. not so if you want to break kilos into 10ths or 100ths with only a simple balance.
further you might want to look into why the Arabic system uses base 10, or zeros.... sometimes there are reasons behind the reasons.
edit: on re reading my post, the relevance of calculators is that numbers like 1/3 don't have to be resolved to 33.33333...% in your head so adding 2/3, 1/3, 5/9 and 4/9 is not unreasonably difficult to do in base ten rather than simple fractuons.
-ke
Great video, I was just 13 when decimalisation happened, yet I had no problems with 240d to the pound and use of Shillings etc, The big thing I still miss is 'checking your change' for old coins, I had a 1704 penny once.
We must be _similar_ age. I think I was 10. I remember having Victorian pennies, I also remember those big old pennies being as big as my palm, but I was a slightly built child.
@@JulieWallis1963 The small(Young Vic) and big bun(old Vic) 1d coins :)
When I was 6 someone gave me a half crown that felt almost as big as my palm, that was a lot of money to me as for a Ha'penny(half an old Penny) I remember running up to the corner shop and could by 2 fruit sweets. (that's 960 sweets for a pound)
I have some pre decimal coins sixpence wartime pennies Queen Victorian penny etc
@@georginacox7292 Its fun looking at the dates. Beginning to get a bit more interesting now with the current 'New Pence' that date back to 1971 some coins dates are more rare than others especially the half New Pence that was only minted between 1971-1984 then demonetised and withdrawn in December 1984.
I was 13 then too. Just got my pension now! Yes, it was easy as you got to know the system and coins at a young age. Strange to think that in 1971 (pre Feb) you often got coins in your pocket way over 100 years old. I was a coin collector then so it was fun going through my mum’s purse. Although it was rare, I once got a George 4th half crown over 150 years old in her change. Theoretically, one could spend coins of over 200 years in age as you say! If nothing else it states how incredibly stable British currency was!
WOW, the most interesting lesson I have ever had on old English coinage, History, Maths and Humour at the same time. Loved it.
Do not take it as history lesson as he missed infidel queen who started the work on fixing currency after Henry VIII
I've watched this video like four times. Because this man's enthusiasm is infectious, and... I'm a huge nerd for antique coins.
Oh yes, and a ha' penny is an inch in diameter - useful when working out distance on a 1" OS map.
A question in my head: did he read all the books behind him?
@@seanleith5312most likely
@@seanleith5312 ,#9⁹⁹
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@@seanleith5312 ⁹
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amazing how dedicated he was to the imaginary coin, he even put it down.
This was fascinating, great job.
What a great delivery, Lindybeige! I love your slightly manic style!
Another 1 hour Lindybeige video? It really is Christmas!
Romans don't yell "Oi!", they yell AO
AO, A A A A O
Even to this day
Let’s Go!
@@JulieWallis1963 not quite, but close enough XD
i love how you places the invisible coin on an invisible table in the intro.
This was a well articulated and interesting video. Many thanks for sharing your knowledge, I learned considerably from this.
Lloyd would make a good school teacher. He is so enthusiastic when he explains stuff he makes you want to listen to him. He reminds me of my favorite professor from college.
Well, thank you for that wonderful presentation! As an American, that system was always a bit of a mystery to me, but your quite exhaustive explanation was quite enlightening.
Although I doubt I could explain it to others, it has given me a real appreciation for the wisdom encapsulated in that system.
Additionally, your various tangential excursions alongside this topic have added so much more texture and color to a topic that has the potential of being dry and boring to a life-threatening level. I recall a one hour lecture on heraldry that lasted decades.
Thank you again for that wonderful presentation.
This video is absolutely amazing. Thank you!
I love your presentation. Thank you
I went on a Pound, Shilling and Pence trip in Golden Gate Park once.
The trees were melting and a rock was telling me about time travel.
We must be of a similar age. I did that in early '70s and got talked into a tai chi group. So hard to not giggle. Loved that town then. I sure didn't realize I had taken old English coinage tho... Wild people, those British! Lol
@@sparrots1 Heh heh, a bit later for me. But something tells me the experiences were pretty ...familiar.
The Academy of Sciences in Golden Gate Park were not for the weak of mind with a head full of ...Pounds, Shillings and Pence.
The stuffed hippo was watching my every move and an ancient groper fish that probably hadn't moved in decades, tried to eat my face.
All in all, good times!
Seeing Lucy in the sky with diamonds!
Lindybeige. "Now I first learned of Electrum..."
Me. "Please say D&D..."
Lindybeige. "From Dungeons and Dragons!"
Me. "Yay!"
Britain was a lot hairy Celt wide boys with Electrum torcs to Romans.
OMG! That's exactly what I was thinking, too.
And the Dungeons and Dragons guide is in fact historically correct, and he confirms it, but he dares to question Gary's basic mathematical ability??? 20 silver = 1 gold, 1 electrum = 10 silver, 2 electrum = 1 gold!
That hour flew by. I was thoroughly entranced and entertained. Thank you.
This was an outstanding video. Entertainment meets edification - my sweet spot.
I just realized the the word we use for money "Dinheiro" in portuguese comes from Denarii i've naver made the connection until i heard you pronouce it.
whereas the English word “money” comes from the Temple of Juno Moneta, which is where the Roman Republic & Empire kept its Mint. And the generic Roman word for money, “pecunia” is believed to derive from “pecus,” meaning cattle.
@@IONATVS We still use pecunia as a legal jargon relative to money .
@@LAMGFGC And "impecunious" means "having little or no money".
Denarii is the plural of denarius,
The word Dinar may comes from the mountin of Dinara,its the mountin from the balkan.
Guineas vs Pounds also allowed for negotiation: someone offers pounds, counter offer same number but in guineas.
After the 240 pence discussion, I want to see Lindy do a video on why we should use a base-12 number system.
Excellent work, and so fun!
Awww Lindy! You called us sophisticated, you're my new favourite Englander.
"I doubt many people called him that to his face... and lived"
lol
That was such a good delivery
try calling me silly
Love the way he snarls when mentioning the euro.
Really, not many that saw his face lived. Safer to have never seen the man.
This blew my mind, a great and fascinating insight into money
This was such a good video, I just watched it again.
A dollar doesn't subdivide into 100 units, it subdivides into three units: .23, .50 and .99; those are the only ones you'll ever see on pricetags.
@@WreckItRolfe It's all .99 or at least everything I've seen. Majority of things in stores are x.99 as well although tax mucks this up.
Wait, .23? Why?
@@marcusostgard5957 That was a typo. He meant $.25
@@WreckItRolfe Large stores that had to hire non-family members to take customers' cash would set prices at .95 so tallies would not wind up "on the dollar", thereby forcing the clerk to open the cash drawer to get the change (and deposit the customers' bills while the customer supervises). If the clerk wasn't forced to make change, the clerk could pocket the customers' bills.
Later it was found out that Americans would see a price of 5.99 and not round up to 6. They would actually think/remember/calculate using 5.
"Not as complicated as you thought"
~Makes an hour long video to explain it~
To be fair though... it wasn't confusing
Do you consider hour long video complicated?
This video is absolutely the best of understanding British coin history, Thank you!
I just stumbled on this. A fascinating story from a very knowledgeable, intelligent and engaging young man. Loved it.
Lloyd’s righteous anger at decimal systems’ inability to divide by 3 is a wonder to behold
If you haven’t already, I suggest you look at Al Murray’s routine “Why it’s called Great Britain” he starts talking about metric vs imperial about halfway through the video.
@@petersone6172 We need to go on a righteous Crusade to restore anti decimalization to the world, death to metrical systems!!
"if you're English- British i should say, sorry, Scotland and Wales"
the proud Cornishman weeps.
Well, blame it on King Egbert of Wessex.
how very dare you
@@solicitr666 i have and i will again.
The Cornish are portrayed as major troublemakers in the Historia Regum Britanniae, what's that about?
@@gramursowanfaborden5820 argh where's my twix i buried on Island Wight aye
And may i recommend a fine rum
Great video- cool sweater too. I used to have a similar one and was one of my favorites
I was brought up with pounds shillings and pence, having been raised in a grocery shop. It was second nature and no hardship. However, after decimalisation, it took some years for me to become free from the temptation to convert decimal to old money in my head to compare whether a product was cheap or expensive.
Oh yes I remember rightly feeling hard done to when a quarter of sweets became 100grams as that was slightly less sweets for the same amount of money
The word " dime" comes from "disme" meaning one tenth.
The more you know
Huh.
This is a discussion about British currency.
Umm so all civilization in britain is founded by romans? First infrastucture, first economy... This is interesting period.
@@effexon Yes.
so in Victorian times everything was priced at 239 pence.
I still have a matchbox toy car in it's original box I bought as a child. The price sticker says 19'/11'', so yes you are right!
Or 19/11 (nineteen shillings and eleven pence).
@@jrd33 Yes sorry - drunk again on the keyboard thinking feet and inches!
@@Simonsvids The Brits did 19 11 as Revenge for 1776
Interestingly, he touches on this. While American merchants will often price something at, say "$1.99" to make it seem cheaper than it is, it was once commonplace for the British ones to say something like "only a guinea". Makes it look posh, and nets the vendor an extra shilling.
The dollar is an S because it comes from spanish coinage. The "spanish dollar" ("real de a 8", in Spain) was widely accepted and used in the colonies and later officialized in the USA, until it was ilegalized in 1857. It was preferred to the british coinage because of its availability during the independence war and of course the aversion to everything british. The "S" is the band that go around each of the Pillars of Hercules that appear in Spain's coat of arms, and that is also present in every spanish coin until the euro came. The vertical bar (2 in the original symbol) is the pillar(s) itself.
Thats a highly debated theory
Very informative, and I like your style. I love that with the D&D connection.