I personally think for places and people who don’t have access to a monastery or seminary (location and finances), that apprenticeship under an experienced and well taught priest should suffice. That said, this priest should be spiritually advanced and unwavering in their faith. I also think most priests should have a monastic as their spiritual father, and be willing to undertake a strict rule of life with more intensive fasting and prayer. I am not a highly educated priest myself. I never even earned a degree of any kind.
You can teach in a community college having only a 2 year degree. Orthodox Seminaries should not require a degree for entrance, only graduating High School. Priests should be able to be tonsured with a two year Seminary Degree as long as they have been Orthodox for 10 years. The Priesthood is a Vocation and the education requirement should be short like a Vocational Training School.
Sounds sensible. Here in the Romanian Church in Ireland we recently had two ordinations - one who went to seminary and was a deacon for about seven years, and the other who was a deacon for months and didn't go to seminary. I guess it's good to have a mix. Some saints were academic giants while others couldn't even read or write.
a very important distinction to be made is being an academic giant never made a saint. But being steeped in the life did for all of them academics and non. It's not a question of should scholastics be studied. It's a question of should it be a measure of qualification. The point is if you can be a saint without scholasticism you certainly can be a priest without scholasticism. Studying of academics is for those who find it edifying not as a requirement or some sort of proof of ability.
Someone I know was approached by his parish priest to consider the Diaconate and to discern this calling. In order to do this, he was instructed to do the following: 1. Continue to serve in the altar for all services 2. Continue to help with the readings while serving as needed 3. Take on parish responsibility serving the people of the parish (he was elected Warden of the parish by the community) 4. Attend theological courses online via a certificate program from a Seminary (so not as aggressive or expensive as full blown seminary, but still some education to prepare as the Diaconate is Major Orders) 5. Do this for a few years (not the schooling, but more so the "apprenticeship" aspect of everything else, to make sure you have time to discern it, serve others, and work on your spiritual growth 6. After 2 years, the Bishop is petitioned and we see if it is God's will. I think that approach is great, especially at a mission church. It happened organically, and he was given major parish responsibility (the warden is no joke), served in the altar, traveled to clergy conferences to serve, and diocesan assemblies, and was able to really get a feel for the life of service needed.
Priests need to be mature men with slightly above-average emotional intelligence. It is a vocation. A profession. No one needs a Master's degree to be a priest. In Greece, there are three tiers of priests: minimal education, degree, and graduate degree. All serve the Church. The seminaries should be moved out of Boston and Yonkers and relocated to the Midwest. ROCOR, ACROD, OCA, and Serbians all have undergraduate seminaries. There should be diocesan or regional inter-Orthodox deacons programs where men don't have to commute to the seminaries. The best of the deacons can later be priested. This is not hard to do but Synods don't want their old institutions to fail. St. Vlad's and Holy Cross are both having financial woes. Holy Cross almost lost accreditation. For the record, I serve a parish in the GOA.
Emotional and intelligence are opposite. Understanding what you feel takes intelligence, to call it emotional intelligence is to add wet to the water whenever you say water.
@@i_assume Emotional intelligence is the ability to perceive, interpret, demonstrate, control, evaluate, and use emotions to communicate with and relate to others effectively and constructively. Emotions play a role in our salvation after the Fall. When the nous becomes illumined, the emotions facilitate the soul's theoria and the total psychosomatic deification.
So it is intelligence. And not emotional intelligence. By your own definition. Emotions is one of the parts that intelligence deals with. Are you aware who and when coined this term? Because feminism was using it as a battering stick to fight misogyny and patriarchy. It's just strange that educated person would with straight face say - yeah emotional intelligence
My biggest concern is not the level of education required, but the quality of education our priests are receiving. I have gathered that many seminarians come out only with knee-deep, Google-tier Orthodoxy. The fact that people like Joshua Shooping can go through seminary and come out with such a poor understanding of Orthodoxy is really telling. I am also concerned that the 1960's/1970's generation is educating our priests. Modernism was heavy at that time and it really infects much of the popular Orthodox literature and teaching of today.
The seminary I went to (which I'll not name) was a priest factory. The goal was to get easy degrees to the students so they could get ordained asap. There was saying among the faculty, "few called, everyone chosen." I think the idea of priests having to be educated has become expected as status quo to the point where some bishops are willing to go to some very interesting lengths to undermine it. I spent a year, figured the place out and bailed.
Schooping is an outlier and was rejected by the OCA for ordination. ROCOR took him and ordained him, then the OCA (foolishly) accepted him back. You can’t blame the seminary for that one.
The western educational model is toxic. Education is so overpriced but the curriculum never delivers on the promise. People put alot of stock into the approval of men on a board at some university. Whats the difference between a priest who is sound theologically but never attended the usury institutions and a priest that did? An insane amount of debt and a head full of extra secular knowledge that really has no usage in parish life. Why should men who should be priests be gate keeped from that calling by requirements that catholics and Protestants impose on themselves, and their leaders and clergy are no better off with all the extra "education". Most men desiring the priesthood don't need to be run through academic institutions they need to be ran through the monasteries or a cheaper alternative to be trained. Maybe thats idealistic. Needing a mdiv to be a priest in certain jurisdictions also implies that a function of the priest is to engage in scholarly work or academic study. Some priests have been called to that life, but to say every priest is an academic or has the ability todo that is a stretch. We all have different talents. Not everyone should be forced to sit through study in the same way everyone shouldn't be forced todo manual labor. When do they get to pray and run the parish when you never taught them how todo those things or what you did teach was surface level. How does the church expand and grow when you strangle the priesthood to men who only come out of institutions that are sometimes teaching concerning things. Or produce a concerning type of people. A surface level understanding of how to be a priest can be learned with a spiritual father and reading, the same result can be produced without the debt and appeal to a educational system that improvishes the student with material that can often be learned for free. I dropped out of school for psychology in the second year. Theres zero reason I need to be paying liberty University to teach me a christianized version of evolution. But certian jurisdictions would love that piece of paper, as though that secular education was anything valuable to the spiritual life. Universities were made for man, for our education and upward movement in wisdom towards God, not to impoverish us and burden us with filler and lies passed off as truth. There should be minimal educational requirements, but that can't be an mdiv which is just impractical and financially irresponsible even to pursue for most of the men who should be priests. This is just my unlearned opinion.
I think that we need a trade-school of sorts for priesthood. There is something like that for people wanting to be permanent deacons but not for priests, that I know of.
Being a Reader, then getting married, being Ordained a Deacon and then being Ordained a Priest. If this takes you 4-6 years you'll be prepared. If your Bishop thinks you're a good fit for the Priesthood then why send you to Seminary when you can be trained "in house".
For married men, I'd like to see them be good husbands and fathers as well. I told my wife, as much as I love serving as a subdeacon and think someday I want to be ordained further, I love her and our kids so much more that I would ask to be laicized if it meant keeping my family whole and better. Married men need to be good at their first vocation before going for more. But as much as I'd like to see a west coast (preferably attached to a stable monastery), its going to be real tough getting career men to go. A good correspondence course linked with spiritual apprenticeship to an experienced priest, or regular trips to a local monastery would be the best. We still need to be educated enough to answer some of the more "academic" questions, but the priesthood is such a matter of the heart. Papa Nicholas served daily with love and reverence and probably brought so many to true Orthodoxy just by his love and humility, not by his knowledge of apophatic theology
Over $200,000 debt at 45 years of age if I went to Holy Cross. I know because it has been strongly suggested that I pursue it. I would put in the years to become a priest, and take my orders and go anywhere, but it's unfortunate that I would have to go to the East coast, pay housing and tuition and so on... that's just too much at my age. There is a Serbian monastery about an hour north of me, I think I am going to spend some time there and maybe pursue monasticism.
Going off memory, I am pretty sure Saint Spyridon was not some genius scholar on theology and philosophy, unlike the other Bishops at the First Council of Nicaea, yet he refuted an Arian heretic because he was a Holy Man and he knew that what the Arians were teaching is not taught in the Liturgy. One amazing example of a Saint who was a Champion of Orthodoxy even though he wasn’t well-read on theology or philosophy.
Student loans are no joke especially if places are looking for people with masters degrees. The church is making it harder on people. The church is limiting itself
. One day Abba Arsenios consulted an old Egyptian monk about his own thoughts. Someone noticed this and said to him, Abba Arsenios, how is it that you with such a good Latin and Greek education, ask this peasant about your thoughts?' He replied, 'I have indeed been taught Latin and Greek, but I do not know even the alphabet of this peasant.' Someone said to blessed Arsenios, 'How is it that we, with all our education and our wide knowledge get nowhere, while these Egyptian peasants acquire so many virtues?' Abba Arsenios said to him, 'We indeed get nothing from our secular education, but these Egyptian peasants acquire the virtues by hard work.'
It's going to be a Convent, there are 2 Nuns already residing on the Property. The Archdiocese was given 2 pieces of land for Athonite Monasteries in Minnesota and Tennessee.
There is a thought about sending me to Seminary after I get married and have a couple years work experience. I'm just gonna ask what I can learn at Seminary that I couldn't learn living the Parish Life as a Reader.
Being around other men who are embarking on the same "specific" journey is a significant part of one's "formation." I will go so far as to say that it sustains one's very difficult (future) ministry for the rest of one's life.
I also live in CT, my family parish had an issue finding a new priest, I remember my father saying “I don’t know why a young priest would not want to come to CT, we have good schools, high paying jobs, our rectory is a $600,000 4 bedroom modern house in a billion dollar neighborhood.” I responded to my father saying that no young person priest or not wants to come to CT, high taxes, low culture. Most of our parishes were built by the original immigrants which they look cool like churches from the village in Russia, but they are falling apart. Young people here are mostly atheists and agnostic, the churches are closing down and have few elderly parishioners. What young priest would want that? Serving more funerals than baptisms and weddings. When does south churches are packed with young people, flourishing, and are American. (The parishes up here are just old people who are immigrants)
Isn't it interesting? We westerners still hold to the scholastical pride in our blood. We see some catholic priests and protestant ministers having formal education and we tend to think that necessarily makes them better pastors than other leaders with a shorter resume. Like you said, church history shows us God tends to work through humble means and humble people, think St Spyridon making a difference in the council of Nicea, he was not a formally educated man like other bishops were, but he was pivotal.
You make an excellent point. I think subconsciously many of us are carrying on the legacy of being the illiterate masses in awe of the learned and literate man at the pulpit. In many villages, the priest and perhaps the mayor were the only people who could read and write.
Currently exploring my options for finishing my bachelor's degree and attending seminary. It would be great to have more options for apprenticeships that are paired with online education.
Spiritual formation ought to be the primary aim of seminary. But in close second and third, intellectual and emotional formation are essential too. Depending on the parish, we have to be ready to respond to anything, and some of our parishioners are doctors, lawyers, psychologists, just as some are mechanics, plumbers and carpenters. To be an effective priest, you have to be able to meet everyone in your flock whereever they are.
I agree. I especially like the monastery part. But it is definately necessary for a priest to say "I think, and I know" as opposed to "I feel..". therefore education is needed on some dogma, but it does not need to come through formal education.
I agree, and as you said, even in secular fields, we have classes that are unnecessary. Scholastics as with many other things in America has become a money maker. I'll take it a step further, anyone thinking about marriage needs to spend time in a monastery first.
I understand where you are coming from, but I do think there needs to be a proper education (what that amounts to idk but), since they need to have a moderate level of education in order to defend the faith, answer questions, provide accurate and proper theological insights, providing proper moral direction, and then the whole pastoral element. There is an element of authority which ought not to be overlooked. If an uneducated priest gives wrong theology or wrong morality, it can be very bad since they are seen as a person in authority. It also helps the people respect the priest since he took great pains to study and therefore in theory should be more knowledgeable.
@@notarobot2161 With all due respect, Presbytera, you should consider rewatching the video. He isn’t saying there shouldn’t be educational requirements for holy orders. He’s saying there needs to be a practical pathway to obtain such an education. Orthodox seminaries in the West simply do not have this on any level. For starters, the most absurd thing about it is that seminaries require one to already have a bachelors degree from a secular university. Please think about what that would entail. Considering all that we know about godless liberal secular colleges, I ask you: how is that at all reasonable requirement? It doesn’t end there. If you do not live near a seminary and/or cannot go into debt with loans and/or outrageous exorbitant fees (this is provided you already went into debt obtaining a bachelors from an essentially worthless secular degree mill, then you haven’t a chance. Please trust that many of us know what we are talking about, as we are currently going through it now. The best you’ll get is a certificate program, which I actually completed myself; I was approached by my spiritual father, a monastic (a hieromonk and abbot) about pursuing the diaconate and priesthood. And he STILL can’t find a parish for me to join. And I live in New England, which is a region with a VERY large number of Orthodox parishes. They are all either full and already have deacons or they are poorly controlled by worldly parish councils who stubbornly refuse to prioritise these things. My own personal situation is complicated and there are many men out there in my situation, more than you probably know. I was at two parishes prior to this. I will spare you all the details, as my comment here is already too lengthy and it would take up far too much space, as well as too much of your time. Please forgive my lengthy comment. Also, please do not take offence at anything I said. I was only expressing to you how frustratingly impractical the situation is in regards to this issue. Your prayers as well as Father’s blessings. 🙏
@whitevortex8323 Please see my comment to Presbytera/Matushka. With all due respect to both of you, please understand that this is not what he is saying in the video. He’s simply trying to say that there are no practical pathways to acquiring said education. Naturally, yes, you both are spot-on correct that a priest and deacon should have some education. I don’t think anyone could ever argue that it isn’t necessary on some level. But for most young and middle-aged men nowadays, in 2024, it is VERY, very frustrating and unnecessarily difficult. It isn’t like it was for the latter boomer and Gen X generations of priests. Things are very, very different now as far as educational pathways/opportunities go. Your prayers. 🙏
We are in desperate need for more priests. I definitely agree; not everyone should be an academic, apprenticeship should be another path. Going to a monastery is good too. Regarding communities, we as individuals should definitely do more to set up Bible studies, youth group activities, and community and charity outreach to support our hardworking priests.
The Church certainly does need more priests and deacons, indeed. And the Lord is already providing them, but a frightening number of those within the Church hierarchy are hindering these men with callings blessed by their spiritual fathers. Bizarre and frustrating as it is, they seem to have zero interest in providing a practical pathway for potential candidates to pursue holy orders. I have been going through this myself and I know others out there in similar situations. I had one ROCOR priest mistreat me last year…he said that my Antiochian certificate (St. Stephen’s program) “does not count in ROCOR”. He may as well have told me to get lost and take a hike. I have a brother down South who has suffered similar experiences. They keep calling for more priests…but, meanwhile, God is sending many of us young and middle-aged men their way and they do next to nothing in the way of guidance/creating a practical pathway for ordination. Parish councils are also a problem here in the US. But that is a whole other can of worms I dare not mention here. Lord have mercy on us. 🙏
The fact that our priest never spoke about Noetic prayer and the need to be in ceaseless prayer always bothered me. Why is prayer not being practiced in Church and at home? Because the priests aren’t exposed to this in seminary?
Is it possible that part of it is cause our priests are overwhelmed and therefore find it difficult to cultivate their own real life of prayer? If you have hundreds of sheep to tend, and have to hold down a secular job to feed your family, how can you devote the time to prayer you need? And therefore how can you reach your flock to do the same?
Noetic prayer needs to be sought in the World. Householders need it. But Very good points. It is difficult but not impossible. We need Grace to pray at all…
Have you considered that maybe that attitude is why God took your priest? Are there other people there at the parish who were also ungrateful know-it-alls?
I would enter seminary tomorrow if I were given an exception to the college requirements. As an autodidact, I’m much more educated than most M.Div students, and I would be willing to back up that claim.
Same here, brother. Same here. It’s one of the really important topics that very few people want to discuss publicly now, which is why I am so happy to see Orthodox Review bring it up. Do you know what might be a good option though in the meantime? Try looking into the St. Stephen’s certificate program at Antiochian House of Studies. ROCOR also has one of their own certificate programs as well now, which is only about a year old. It is the minimum educational requirements for the diaconate. It isn’t too overpriced either; I was able to put myself through it mostly on the generous donations of those in the church and the monastery my spiritual father is at. It is at least worth looking into. In the meantime, you have my prayers! 🙏
The Antiochian church took in priest candidates in the 1980’s from the EOC that were not educated at a seminary. My parents came into the church in 1987 and so did my aunt/ uncle - my uncle studied under a parish priest and became a priest after. As far as what they looked for in candidates I do not know, but there is certainly precedent for lay men studying under a parish priest and ultimately becoming a priest. There have been many well known EOC priests - think Fr. Peter Gillquist et al.
Yes they do. We have two incredible parishes here in Northeast Tennessee, about 5 miles from one another. Both growing rapidly, and both preparing to construct new temples.
The seminaries worth their salt are the ones that are attached to monasteries. There’s plenty of good class work and pastoral education that happens at seminary, but the real formation happens when you’re kneeling under that epitrachelion confessing to a hieromonk, when you’re in that altar every day for hours, when you’re in the choir for every service of Holy Week, when you have camaraderie with your fellow seminarians and support each other through the great material and spiritual hardships that come in seminary. Your three specifications are solid. There needs to be a better system to feed good candidates to seminary as well as a better filter for bad candidates.
I’ll pray that God will call some local young men in parish communities to be lifted up by their local people to be put on the path towards ordination! I can think of a few in my church. And then we need to PAY them pretty well!
There are allot of accounts of during the war time in Greece how there was a lack of priests so laity would serve the liturgy in the priestly vestments and serve weddings and funerals. Which is the basis of the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding 2. Where the parents find out that the priest who married them was not an official ordained priest so they had to get remarried. A little dramatic because it was a movie, I can account of many elderly immigrants from the war coming to our priest with the same issue and he would either just sign a new wedding certificate or do a simple crowning ceremony. Even before that movie came out I heard allot of stories about this issue in the old country
A flexible approach can definitely work. Here in the UK we have no seminary. Given family and work commitments, going abroad for seminary was never an option for me, let alone the financial costs involved. I served as deacon under a parish priest of our (ROCOR) diocese with more than 20 years of experience for a couple of years, and then was ordained priest, and served consecutive Liturgies at our cathedral with equally experienced priests. I also did a few modules with Jordanville via distance learning (not a full degree) targeted at the most relevant needs for my situation, and the diocese funded it. Although the circumstances of the Church in the UK is quite different to yours across the pond, there are similar patterns. Those jurisdictions which continue to insist on a particular level of seminary education for ordination are struggling a lot with these issues.
My priest has asked me to consider the priesthood or atleast the diaconate. However, I am already in debt from college and I do not have 3 to 4 years to spend in a classroom if they could come up with a cheap 1 year program that would be ideal. But all those decisions are well above my pay grade.
There are even UNacademic hoops that some of us who are nearly begging to be ordained (because continuously called by the Lord to do so) are not even allowed to jump through.
It was my understanding that the monophysites basically had their own set off areas at these seminaries similar to Orthodox studies departments at non Orthodox institutions (Still dumb but its not like Orthodox bishops are ordaining these people.)
It's their way of generating unity amidst the priesthoods so there's more support for a reunion of the two churches. Whether that will be a true union or a false union is at the mercy of God, imo. That said, I give due credit to the Coptics for ending ecumenical dialogue with the catholics over fiducia supplicans 🤣
I saw your comment in someones live chat saying that you were really struggling with $uicid€ a week or so ago. I hope your doing better now. Just know you dont go seen unnoticed. And you are appreciated brother.
Seminary is a spiritual and cultural immersion more than it is an academic one. Damick pointed out that an MDiv is a professional, not academic degree! The coursework is not that hard (just an extensive survey of a broad subject matter). Guys who don’t like an academic environment go to St. Tikhon’s because it’s strictly a Vocational school.
I think the numbers crisis is going to eventually force this issue (same with the overlapping jurisdictional issue). The coming generations have not received a wealth transfer from their forebearers and as such the thought of going six figures into debt is basically unthinkable. Also (what do proverbs say about this whole usurious acedemia project?). Its also worth noting that historically seminaries and academia have served as the wost cause of "latin captivity" and such dilution of Orthodox teaching by heterodox ideas.
Creating a culture within the Church that makes ordination both desirable and attainable begins with changing the way we treat our existing clergy in both visible and invisible ways. I disagree with the notion of “democratic” priest selection for two reasons. First, the Bishop has a bird’s eye view of the diocese and its needs and growth and in this way can better determine where the gifts of a particular priest will be of greatest benefit. Second, parish politics are real and “family name” and financial contribution size could in some cases tend to create larger dynamics that would be harmful not just to those who have a calling to the priesthood but to parishes and ultimately to the Church herself. I’m in ROCOR’s Chicago and Mid America Archdiocese and believe that most archdioceses should have online schools like ours available, which increase the accessibility both geographically and financially of ecclesiastic education. This answer speaks not only to the shortage of priests but also to enriching the lay leadership in parishes, and even helping high school students to discern possible callings to the priesthood or diaconate. I agree that time spent in monastic settings is valuable - to all of us but certainly to clergy and candidates. Remember, however, that priest candidates are mainly married, most with small or young children, and their spouses and children need to have something to live on, as well as practical support, should their husbands and fathers go away for some interval or regular intervals for development at a monastery. This circles back to how we treat our clergy today. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I don’t believe many parishes own adjacent housing for their clergy. A house and a car (uniformly modest) that come with the job at any given parish would remove a huge burden and allow clergy to work part time at most at a secular job and allow them to focus on the more than full time work of tending the flock. Wow, that was a long comment. Thank you if you read this far.
I'm curious... Where are you getting the idea that required education for clergy is a 20th century innovation? It very much isn't. Clergy, including many of the famous saints you're thinking of, were often very highly educated. St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil the Great, etc. were all the products of the best education of their time... *and* good spiritual formation. I say that as a priest who agrees that we need to find a better, more flexible model (or models) for training priests that emphasizes formation in the parish more. But in the past, when clergy were uneducated, that was mostly during times of persecution, like under the Turkokratia, when Muslims were forbidding that education. There are also lots of saints who talked about and worked hard on increasing the level of education of the clergy. I do think there should be exceptions, I do think a lot more of the formation should happen at the parish level, I do think we should remove obstacles in people's way, but I don't think it's true or wise to see clergy education as a modern, unnecessary extra. In terms of removing obstacles, it's worth mentioning that in the Antiochian Archdiocese, the archdiocese pays for the cost of the seminary education for all archdiocesan seminarians, which is a major positive.
wow not what i expected....great great take......Orthodoxy is growing and many middle aged men did not know they were being trained for the priesthood in their life experiences ......and because obviously married men are welcome it is obvious older men can be priests i believe......a faithful married man guiding his house in a Godly way is best training
Amen. I agree. This problem is unfortunately a lot worse than most people realise. I’ve been married almost a decade, in my early ‘40s. My spiritual father is a monastic and I was approached by him five years ago to pursue the diaconate and, one day, God willing, the priesthood. I did the St. Stephen’s certificate program (which I would highly recommend to those who can’t afford or can’t qualify for a regular seminary degree, which has outrageous requirements to qualify). And even in my current situation, after being strung along and given no real plan, I am no closer to ordination than I was before I started. It’s very frustrating, and still, the Church shows absolutely no interest in addressing this problem. It hurts to say this, but they clearly do not care. The other problem is bloated parish councils filled with out-of-touch types with no real spiritual life. May the Lord forgive my harsh language there, but it is the truth. I was sent to a parish recently that said they were interested in having a deacon. Now, suddenly, they seem to have changed their minds. Even the priest has his hands tied on it, supposedly. It is outrageous. God help us.
What do you think about the Coptic practice of having priests spend 40 days learning the services in a monastery? I believe that’s all they do prior to ordination. That seems much more of an organic way to learn to be a priest.
That's a universal Orthodox practice, it may not always happen, but it's the ideal in all jurisdiction. I even know of one instance where the Ecumenical Patriarch himself served as the chanter one day, so that a newly ordained priest could celebrate during his first 40 days, apparently there was something going on at the Phanar that day and most the chanters and priests were busy and he thought it might be quite fun to play the chanter for a day... I suspect that was probably a rather nerve-wracking liturgy for the new priest.
I'll say this. I think part of the problem is Non-Monastic, in some cases anti-monastic, Bishops. They don't see that there are people in the Parishes with the Acumen to become Priests because they don't have fully developed inner lives and substitute the inner spiritual life with education. And so to be a Priest you MUST have an education. So it creates a blind spot and it means that less people with the Acumen to be Priests become Priests.
AMEN. You, dear friend, hit the nail right on the head. Couldn’t have said it better myself! A ROCOR priest (won’t say who) in the Northeast somewhere insulted my spiritual father to my face, after telling me my Antiochian seminary background “doesn’t count in ROCOR”. I regretfully say this, but it is unfortunately a fair number of those within the hierarchy who are exacerbating these problems.
@@acekoala457 Was a priest that said that to me, unfortunately. Lord have mercy. You in the Northeast by any chance? That’s where I’m at (New England). That’s good that you were recommended both. Shows you must have a good priest. If you don’t mind me asking, how exactly are they having you do both programs? Which AHOS program are you enrolled in? I’m pretty sure Jordanville’s pastoral school is ROCOR’s equivalent to AHOS’ St. Stephen’s program. Basically the same curriculum; the only major difference I could see was Jordanville’s online pastoral program has Slavonic courses.
I am a retired Lutheran pastor with an MDiv. Although I learned most of what I know about ministry and pastoral care post seminary, I would not trade the solid foundation and tools I learned from 8 years of theological college and seminary education. I served as a hospice chaplain for years. The hospice wanted me to train volunteers to handle the spiritual care of the patients and families. I refused. When asked why I replied that the hospice would not allow volunteers to deliver skilled nursing care, or volunteers to deliver the care of a trained social worker, and I would not presume that a well intentioned volunteer with no education in spiritual care and/or the ins and outs of the spiritual life could deliver the level of spiritual care required. We sell short what is really involved in guiding people on the spiritual path. It is not easy. That said, my education for the full 8 years cost the same as one semester of masters level education costs today. THAT should definitely be addressed, especially when a priest is entering a vocation that is no where near the top of the salary heap in contemporary America.
With all due respect, it needs to be a lot more than just “addressed”. Things have to change. It has to meet the standards and situations of life in an increasingly godless postmodern 21st century where most of the young and middle-aged men you will meet who are candidates for clergy can’t even afford to buy a house. And not only that, but most Orthodox seminaries (I’m probably being generous, as it is pretty much all of them) have as their minimum requirements that one first obtain a bachelors from a secular university before they can even think about applying for their M.Div. and Th.M. programs. Only two years college? Sorry, no seminary for you. Best they’ll do is a certificate program, which can and does sometimes serve as a pathway for the diaconate. This depends upon other factors as well, but that is a whole other can of worms. I mean no disrespect, so, may God forgive me, but this is why there has been so much palpable frustration with your generation over this issue. That said, pastor, I do appreciate that you are at least somewhat conscious of the problem; that counts for something. Many boomer age folks won’t even acknowledge there’s a problem. Unfortunately, this applies to many older Orthodox as well, clergy and laity alike.
with respect to you only a humble poor person of no good account but education has a value but if I believed everything i learned in secular education would that save me? i take no issue with you valuing your education and where it led you but did your secular education make you better prepared than someone who wasnt educated in a secular way? by your answer you seem to think so as if only some people can be qualified to serve others? if by your experience in helping others which you did mot learn how to do from secular education then you could be able to train others to do so but you refused? and left it up to others to do so but you were asked? and if by your education you were allowed a place in the hospital system others were not but you gained experience that allowed you to learn and grow to do so and you excelled at it but when presented the opportunity to train others to do what you do but not even replace your position but to expand it for the care of others you refused? Im not condemning you for that but i feel like if i had the opportunity to make sure more people had more care and not less i would do it
I cant and most likely will never be able to afford college and would love the opportunity to serve the church but I've come to settle with the idea that the church doesn't really care about that
I’m going through something similar, brother. Please know that if you truly have a calling to serve and this is God’s will, then, from the bottom of my heart, I would invite you to reconsider settling on giving up. Believe me, dear brother, I know how frustrated and rejected and hurt you must feel. Pray for those within the church hierarchy who are sadly exacerbating this problem, as they will have to answer for their actions before the Lord. You have my prayers, Theotokos be with you! 🙏
Excellent suggestions. I would add continuing education is a must but a MDiv post undergrad degree just isn't feasible for a lot of good working and middle class men. They can serve as assistant priests under an experienced priest while they undergo this specialized clergy trade school. We really need to get away from the kooky academics popping up in esteemed Jesuit universities.
A Monastery that will not, at least in our lifetimes, have Bishops raised out of her. Antioch needs Byzantine/Athonite Monasteries in America and Metropolitan Saba is working on that.
@@KnoxEmDown Yes and no. St. John of Shanghai attempted to raise up a "Western Rite Bishop" in the 20th Century and he immediately went full Schismo when he was consecrated and St. John was Censured by the Synod.
What is the definition of "educated"? Does the church look for degrees in theology or like most places just any nonsensical degree that does not demonstrate you actually know anything.
Right, but I can't emphasize this enough, but this is about clergy formation, not how to be a Christian. Too often, conflate the two. You do not have to be clergy to be a good Christian and not every person who understands the Gospel well and is pious and holy would make good clergy. Clergy aren't superior to other Christians, but a very particular vocation within the Body of Christ.
Given the number of times I've heard Organism or Nestorianism or even Gnosticism and Neo-Platonism inadvertently preached by priests with an M.Div., I'm not entirely sure that's true. Are there other ways to learn patristics and theology than a seminary? Sure. But in my experience the problem we see today is that priests are undereducated, not overeducated.
That will not have a Bishop raised out of her, at least in our lifetimes. A WR Bishop would be nice, but he would have to be Orthodox First and Western Rite Second.
I personally think for places and people who don’t have access to a monastery or seminary (location and finances), that apprenticeship under an experienced and well taught priest should suffice. That said, this priest should be spiritually advanced and unwavering in their faith. I also think most priests should have a monastic as their spiritual father, and be willing to undertake a strict rule of life with more intensive fasting and prayer. I am not a highly educated priest myself. I never even earned a degree of any kind.
Absolutely agreed!
Wait so you’re a priest?
He is, yes.
Father, bless. Do you have an email address I could contact you at?
We know
“Education: the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty.”
― Mark Twain
“Some people get an education without going to college. The rest get it after they get out.”
― Mark Twain
You can teach in a community college having only a 2 year degree.
Orthodox Seminaries should not require a degree for entrance, only graduating High School.
Priests should be able to be tonsured with a two year Seminary Degree as long as they have been Orthodox for 10 years.
The Priesthood is a Vocation and the education requirement should be short like a Vocational Training School.
We just lost our priest! Probably no chance of getting a new one for two years! 😢
Lord, have mercy!!! See, this is what I mean. Y'all could easily elect a new one and petition your bishop about it 😤
Lord have mercy. This is a sad state of affairs.
@@OrthodoxReview very interesting idea!!! Thank you!
What happened? Which parish? Why one to two years? Questions, questions, questions!
@orthodoxboomergrandma3561 where are y'all at?
Sounds sensible. Here in the Romanian Church in Ireland we recently had two ordinations - one who went to seminary and was a deacon for about seven years, and the other who was a deacon for months and didn't go to seminary. I guess it's good to have a mix. Some saints were academic giants while others couldn't even read or write.
a very important distinction to be made is being an academic giant never made a saint. But being steeped in the life did for all of them academics and non. It's not a question of should scholastics be studied. It's a question of should it be a measure of qualification. The point is if you can be a saint without scholasticism you certainly can be a priest without scholasticism. Studying of academics is for those who find it edifying not as a requirement or some sort of proof of ability.
Someone I know was approached by his parish priest to consider the Diaconate and to discern this calling. In order to do this, he was instructed to do the following:
1. Continue to serve in the altar for all services
2. Continue to help with the readings while serving as needed
3. Take on parish responsibility serving the people of the parish (he was elected Warden of the parish by the community)
4. Attend theological courses online via a certificate program from a Seminary (so not as aggressive or expensive as full blown seminary, but still some education to prepare as the Diaconate is Major Orders)
5. Do this for a few years (not the schooling, but more so the "apprenticeship" aspect of everything else, to make sure you have time to discern it, serve others, and work on your spiritual growth
6. After 2 years, the Bishop is petitioned and we see if it is God's will.
I think that approach is great, especially at a mission church. It happened organically, and he was given major parish responsibility (the warden is no joke), served in the altar, traveled to clergy conferences to serve, and diocesan assemblies, and was able to really get a feel for the life of service needed.
Spending some time as a Reader should also be in here somewhere.
Priests need to be mature men with slightly above-average emotional intelligence. It is a vocation. A profession. No one needs a Master's degree to be a priest. In Greece, there are three tiers of priests: minimal education, degree, and graduate degree. All serve the Church. The seminaries should be moved out of Boston and Yonkers and relocated to the Midwest. ROCOR, ACROD, OCA, and Serbians all have undergraduate seminaries. There should be diocesan or regional inter-Orthodox deacons programs where men don't have to commute to the seminaries. The best of the deacons can later be priested. This is not hard to do but Synods don't want their old institutions to fail. St. Vlad's and Holy Cross are both having financial woes. Holy Cross almost lost accreditation. For the record, I serve a parish in the GOA.
Emotional and intelligence are opposite. Understanding what you feel takes intelligence, to call it emotional intelligence is to add wet to the water whenever you say water.
@@i_assume Emotional intelligence is the ability to perceive, interpret, demonstrate, control, evaluate, and use emotions to communicate with and relate to others effectively and constructively. Emotions play a role in our salvation after the Fall. When the nous becomes illumined, the emotions facilitate the soul's theoria and the total psychosomatic deification.
So it is intelligence. And not emotional intelligence. By your own definition. Emotions is one of the parts that intelligence deals with. Are you aware who and when coined this term? Because feminism was using it as a battering stick to fight misogyny and patriarchy. It's just strange that educated person would with straight face say - yeah emotional intelligence
@@i_assume no, I meant emotional intelligence. I chose my words carefully.
Which is the OCA's undergrad seminary?
My biggest concern is not the level of education required, but the quality of education our priests are receiving. I have gathered that many seminarians come out only with knee-deep, Google-tier Orthodoxy. The fact that people like Joshua Shooping can go through seminary and come out with such a poor understanding of Orthodoxy is really telling. I am also concerned that the 1960's/1970's generation is educating our priests. Modernism was heavy at that time and it really infects much of the popular Orthodox literature and teaching of today.
The seminary I went to (which I'll not name) was a priest factory. The goal was to get easy degrees to the students so they could get ordained asap. There was saying among the faculty, "few called, everyone chosen."
I think the idea of priests having to be educated has become expected as status quo to the point where some bishops are willing to go to some very interesting lengths to undermine it.
I spent a year, figured the place out and bailed.
I know which one you're talking about 😉
Schooping is an outlier and was rejected by the OCA for ordination. ROCOR took him and ordained him, then the OCA (foolishly) accepted him back. You can’t blame the seminary for that one.
The western educational model is toxic. Education is so overpriced but the curriculum never delivers on the promise. People put alot of stock into the approval of men on a board at some university. Whats the difference between a priest who is sound theologically but never attended the usury institutions and a priest that did? An insane amount of debt and a head full of extra secular knowledge that really has no usage in parish life. Why should men who should be priests be gate keeped from that calling by requirements that catholics and Protestants impose on themselves, and their leaders and clergy are no better off with all the extra "education". Most men desiring the priesthood don't need to be run through academic institutions they need to be ran through the monasteries or a cheaper alternative to be trained. Maybe thats idealistic. Needing a mdiv to be a priest in certain jurisdictions also implies that a function of the priest is to engage in scholarly work or academic study. Some priests have been called to that life, but to say every priest is an academic or has the ability todo that is a stretch. We all have different talents. Not everyone should be forced to sit through study in the same way everyone shouldn't be forced todo manual labor. When do they get to pray and run the parish when you never taught them how todo those things or what you did teach was surface level. How does the church expand and grow when you strangle the priesthood to men who only come out of institutions that are sometimes teaching concerning things. Or produce a concerning type of people. A surface level understanding of how to be a priest can be learned with a spiritual father and reading, the same result can be produced without the debt and appeal to a educational system that improvishes the student with material that can often be learned for free. I dropped out of school for psychology in the second year. Theres zero reason I need to be paying liberty University to teach me a christianized version of evolution. But certian jurisdictions would love that piece of paper, as though that secular education was anything valuable to the spiritual life. Universities were made for man, for our education and upward movement in wisdom towards God, not to impoverish us and burden us with filler and lies passed off as truth. There should be minimal educational requirements, but that can't be an mdiv which is just impractical and financially irresponsible even to pursue for most of the men who should be priests. This is just my unlearned opinion.
👏👏👏
Eastern Orthodoxy does not require Western scholasticism. Full Stop.
Amén!!!
I think that we need a trade-school of sorts for priesthood. There is something like that for people wanting to be permanent deacons but not for priests, that I know of.
On the job training
Being a Reader, then getting married, being Ordained a Deacon and then being Ordained a Priest.
If this takes you 4-6 years you'll be prepared.
If your Bishop thinks you're a good fit for the Priesthood then why send you to Seminary when you can be trained "in house".
For married men, I'd like to see them be good husbands and fathers as well. I told my wife, as much as I love serving as a subdeacon and think someday I want to be ordained further, I love her and our kids so much more that I would ask to be laicized if it meant keeping my family whole and better. Married men need to be good at their first vocation before going for more.
But as much as I'd like to see a west coast (preferably attached to a stable monastery), its going to be real tough getting career men to go. A good correspondence course linked with spiritual apprenticeship to an experienced priest, or regular trips to a local monastery would be the best. We still need to be educated enough to answer some of the more "academic" questions, but the priesthood is such a matter of the heart. Papa Nicholas served daily with love and reverence and probably brought so many to true Orthodoxy just by his love and humility, not by his knowledge of apophatic theology
Over $200,000 debt at 45 years of age if I went to Holy Cross. I know because it has been strongly suggested that I pursue it. I would put in the years to become a priest, and take my orders and go anywhere, but it's unfortunate that I would have to go to the East coast, pay housing and tuition and so on... that's just too much at my age. There is a Serbian monastery about an hour north of me, I think I am going to spend some time there and maybe pursue monasticism.
BASED
Going off memory, I am pretty sure Saint Spyridon was not some genius scholar on theology and philosophy, unlike the other Bishops at the First Council of Nicaea, yet he refuted an Arian heretic because he was a Holy Man and he knew that what the Arians were teaching is not taught in the Liturgy. One amazing example of a Saint who was a Champion of Orthodoxy even though he wasn’t well-read on theology or philosophy.
He lived a Holy Life prior to being Consecrated a Bishop and continued to live a Holy Life.
He had the Grace of God and kept it.
Student loans are no joke especially if places are looking for people with masters degrees. The church is making it harder on people. The church is limiting itself
. One day Abba Arsenios consulted an old Egyptian monk about his own thoughts. Someone noticed this and said to him, Abba Arsenios, how is it that you with such a good Latin and Greek education, ask this peasant about your thoughts?' He replied, 'I have indeed been taught Latin and Greek, but I do not know even the alphabet of this peasant.'
Someone said to blessed Arsenios, 'How is it that we, with all our education and our wide knowledge get nowhere, while these Egyptian peasants acquire so many virtues?' Abba Arsenios said to him, 'We indeed get nothing from our secular education, but these Egyptian peasants acquire the virtues by hard work.'
We’re (Antioch) supposed to be breaking ground for a monastery at the Antiochian Village, Lord willing.
It's going to be a Convent, there are 2 Nuns already residing on the Property.
The Archdiocese was given 2 pieces of land for Athonite Monasteries in Minnesota and Tennessee.
That is awesome! I really like the Western Rite one, but it doesn't really have much of a monastery; it feels more like an oblation/visitor center.
There will be one breaking ground in Missouri as well.
There is a thought about sending me to Seminary after I get married and have a couple years work experience.
I'm just gonna ask what I can learn at Seminary that I couldn't learn living the Parish Life as a Reader.
Being around other men who are embarking on the same "specific" journey is a significant part of one's "formation." I will go so far as to say that it sustains one's very difficult (future) ministry for the rest of one's life.
@@BassByRon
Comradery for 100k a year is not a great investment.
@@acekoala457who pays 100k a year for seminary?
@BrancoveanuConstantine
For a 2 year Program it's 200k at Holy Cross.
I am finally a catechumen, Raphael. Almost 4 years watching your content and I finally made the plunge.
Glory to God! Welcome home!
“Education: that which reveals to the wise, and conceals from the stupid, the vast limits of their knowledge.”
― Mark Twain
I also live in CT, my family parish had an issue finding a new priest, I remember my father saying “I don’t know why a young priest would not want to come to CT, we have good schools, high paying jobs, our rectory is a $600,000 4 bedroom modern house in a billion dollar neighborhood.” I responded to my father saying that no young person priest or not wants to come to CT, high taxes, low culture. Most of our parishes were built by the original immigrants which they look cool like churches from the village in Russia, but they are falling apart. Young people here are mostly atheists and agnostic, the churches are closing down and have few elderly parishioners. What young priest would want that? Serving more funerals than baptisms and weddings. When does south churches are packed with young people, flourishing, and are American. (The parishes up here are just old people who are immigrants)
Isn't it interesting? We westerners still hold to the scholastical pride in our blood. We see some catholic priests and protestant ministers having formal education and we tend to think that necessarily makes them better pastors than other leaders with a shorter resume. Like you said, church history shows us God tends to work through humble means and humble people, think St Spyridon making a difference in the council of Nicea, he was not a formally educated man like other bishops were, but he was pivotal.
You make an excellent point. I think subconsciously many of us are carrying on the legacy of being the illiterate masses in awe of the learned and literate man at the pulpit. In many villages, the priest and perhaps the mayor were the only people who could read and write.
Currently exploring my options for finishing my bachelor's degree and attending seminary. It would be great to have more options for apprenticeships that are paired with online education.
Spiritual formation ought to be the primary aim of seminary. But in close second and third, intellectual and emotional formation are essential too. Depending on the parish, we have to be ready to respond to anything, and some of our parishioners are doctors, lawyers, psychologists, just as some are mechanics, plumbers and carpenters. To be an effective priest, you have to be able to meet everyone in your flock whereever they are.
I also dig the Big Lebowski reference.
I agree. I especially like the monastery part. But it is definately necessary for a priest to say "I think, and I know" as opposed to "I feel..". therefore education is needed on some dogma, but it does not need to come through formal education.
“Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned.”
― Mark Twain
I agree, and as you said, even in secular fields, we have classes that are unnecessary. Scholastics as with many other things in America has become a money maker.
I'll take it a step further, anyone thinking about marriage needs to spend time in a monastery first.
Abbott Damascene asked me if I would have regrets, both paths being equal, and I told him I would. He told me to get married.
I understand where you are coming from, but I do think there needs to be a proper education (what that amounts to idk but), since they need to have a moderate level of education in order to defend the faith, answer questions, provide accurate and proper theological insights, providing proper moral direction, and then the whole pastoral element. There is an element of authority which ought not to be overlooked.
If an uneducated priest gives wrong theology or wrong morality, it can be very bad since they are seen as a person in authority. It also helps the people respect the priest since he took great pains to study and therefore in theory should be more knowledgeable.
This is my husband’s sentiment. He’s a priest.
@@notarobot2161
With all due respect, Presbytera, you should consider rewatching the video. He isn’t saying there shouldn’t be educational requirements for holy orders. He’s saying there needs to be a practical pathway to obtain such an education. Orthodox seminaries in the West simply do not have this on any level. For starters, the most absurd thing about it is that seminaries require one to already have a bachelors degree from a secular university. Please think about what that would entail. Considering all that we know about godless liberal secular colleges, I ask you: how is that at all reasonable requirement?
It doesn’t end there. If you do not live near a seminary and/or cannot go into debt with loans and/or outrageous exorbitant fees (this is provided you already went into debt obtaining a bachelors from an essentially worthless secular degree mill, then you haven’t a chance.
Please trust that many of us know what we are talking about, as we are currently going through it now. The best you’ll get is a certificate program, which I actually completed myself; I was approached by my spiritual father, a monastic (a hieromonk and abbot) about pursuing the diaconate and priesthood. And he STILL can’t find a parish for me to join. And I live in New England, which is a region with a VERY large number of Orthodox parishes. They are all either full and already have deacons or they are poorly controlled by worldly parish councils who stubbornly refuse to prioritise these things.
My own personal situation is complicated and there are many men out there in my situation, more than you probably know. I was at two parishes prior to this. I will spare you all the details, as my comment here is already too lengthy and it would take up far too much space, as well as too much of your time.
Please forgive my lengthy comment. Also, please do not take offence at anything I said. I was only expressing to you how frustratingly impractical the situation is in regards to this issue.
Your prayers as well as Father’s blessings. 🙏
@whitevortex8323
Please see my comment to Presbytera/Matushka. With all due respect to both of you, please understand that this is not what he is saying in the video. He’s simply trying to say that there are no practical pathways to acquiring said education. Naturally, yes, you both are spot-on correct that a priest and deacon should have some education. I don’t think anyone could ever argue that it isn’t necessary on some level.
But for most young and middle-aged men nowadays, in 2024, it is VERY, very frustrating and unnecessarily difficult. It isn’t like it was for the latter boomer and Gen X generations of priests. Things are very, very different now as far as educational pathways/opportunities go.
Your prayers. 🙏
We are in desperate need for more priests. I definitely agree; not everyone should be an academic, apprenticeship should be another path. Going to a monastery is good too.
Regarding communities, we as individuals should definitely do more to set up Bible studies, youth group activities, and community and charity outreach to support our hardworking priests.
The Church certainly does need more priests and deacons, indeed. And the Lord is already providing them, but a frightening number of those within the Church hierarchy are hindering these men with callings blessed by their spiritual fathers. Bizarre and frustrating as it is, they seem to have zero interest in providing a practical pathway for potential candidates to pursue holy orders. I have been going through this myself and I know others out there in similar situations.
I had one ROCOR priest mistreat me last year…he said that my Antiochian certificate (St. Stephen’s program) “does not count in ROCOR”. He may as well have told me to get lost and take a hike. I have a brother down South who has suffered similar experiences.
They keep calling for more priests…but, meanwhile, God is sending many of us young and middle-aged men their way and they do next to nothing in the way of guidance/creating a practical pathway for ordination. Parish councils are also a problem here in the US. But that is a whole other can of worms I dare not mention here. Lord have mercy on us. 🙏
The fact that our priest never spoke about Noetic prayer and the need to be in ceaseless prayer always bothered me. Why is prayer not being practiced in Church and at home? Because the priests aren’t exposed to this in seminary?
That's very disconcerting
Is it possible that part of it is cause our priests are overwhelmed and therefore find it difficult to cultivate their own real life of prayer? If you have hundreds of sheep to tend, and have to hold down a secular job to feed your family, how can you devote the time to prayer you need? And therefore how can you reach your flock to do the same?
Noetic prayer needs to be sought in the World. Householders need it. But Very good points. It is difficult but not impossible. We need Grace to pray at all…
Have you considered that maybe that attitude is why God took your priest? Are there other people there at the parish who were also ungrateful know-it-alls?
@@IcapelliperteI am the worst of sinners thank you
This is fascinating in so many ways. More to come....
I would enter seminary tomorrow if I were given an exception to the college requirements. As an autodidact, I’m much more educated than most M.Div students, and I would be willing to back up that claim.
Same here, brother. Same here. It’s one of the really important topics that very few people want to discuss publicly now, which is why I am so happy to see Orthodox Review bring it up.
Do you know what might be a good option though in the meantime? Try looking into the St. Stephen’s certificate program at Antiochian House of Studies. ROCOR also has one of their own certificate programs as well now, which is only about a year old. It is the minimum educational requirements for the diaconate. It isn’t too overpriced either; I was able to put myself through it mostly on the generous donations of those in the church and the monastery my spiritual father is at. It is at least worth looking into. In the meantime, you have my prayers! 🙏
I think you NAILED it
The Antiochian church took in priest candidates in the 1980’s from the EOC that were not educated at a seminary. My parents came into the church in 1987 and so did my aunt/ uncle - my uncle studied under a parish priest and became a priest after. As far as what they looked for in candidates I do not know, but there is certainly precedent for lay men studying under a parish priest and ultimately becoming a priest. There have been many well known EOC priests - think Fr. Peter Gillquist et al.
BROTHER COOKEVILLE TENNESSEE NEEDS AN ORTHODOX CHURCH
Yes they do. We have two incredible parishes here in Northeast Tennessee, about 5 miles from one another. Both growing rapidly, and both preparing to construct new temples.
The seminaries worth their salt are the ones that are attached to monasteries. There’s plenty of good class work and pastoral education that happens at seminary, but the real formation happens when you’re kneeling under that epitrachelion confessing to a hieromonk, when you’re in that altar every day for hours, when you’re in the choir for every service of Holy Week, when you have camaraderie with your fellow seminarians and support each other through the great material and spiritual hardships that come in seminary.
Your three specifications are solid. There needs to be a better system to feed good candidates to seminary as well as a better filter for bad candidates.
I don’t think seminaries need to be dispensed with, but they need to be understood as vocational institutions rather than academic ones.
@@BrancoveanuConstantine
Exactly. Very well stated.
I’ll pray that God will call some local young men in parish communities to be lifted up by their local people to be put on the path towards ordination! I can think of a few in my church. And then we need to PAY them pretty well!
Hit me up on messenger
There are allot of accounts of during the war time in Greece how there was a lack of priests so laity would serve the liturgy in the priestly vestments and serve weddings and funerals. Which is the basis of the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding 2. Where the parents find out that the priest who married them was not an official ordained priest so they had to get remarried. A little dramatic because it was a movie, I can account of many elderly immigrants from the war coming to our priest with the same issue and he would either just sign a new wedding certificate or do a simple crowning ceremony. Even before that movie came out I heard allot of stories about this issue in the old country
I love that this is coming to people’s attention.
A flexible approach can definitely work. Here in the UK we have no seminary. Given family and work commitments, going abroad for seminary was never an option for me, let alone the financial costs involved. I served as deacon under a parish priest of our (ROCOR) diocese with more than 20 years of experience for a couple of years, and then was ordained priest, and served consecutive Liturgies at our cathedral with equally experienced priests. I also did a few modules with Jordanville via distance learning (not a full degree) targeted at the most relevant needs for my situation, and the diocese funded it. Although the circumstances of the Church in the UK is quite different to yours across the pond, there are similar patterns. Those jurisdictions which continue to insist on a particular level of seminary education for ordination are struggling a lot with these issues.
Brill'!
My priest has asked me to consider the priesthood or atleast the diaconate. However, I am already in debt from college and I do not have 3 to 4 years to spend in a classroom if they could come up with a cheap 1 year program that would be ideal. But all those decisions are well above my pay grade.
The cap you're wearing is Serbian traditional "шајкача"(shykacha).
I know, that's why I'm wearing it 🇷🇸
There are even UNacademic hoops that some of us who are nearly begging to be ordained (because continuously called by the Lord to do so) are not even allowed to jump through.
Very very good video Raffael . I agree with you 100 %
Except for the idea of vetting a priest by the parish council.
Sorry…monastery of our Lady and St. Laurence
What do you mean
oh, nevermind, saw your other comment
OCA "seminaries" take in monophysite students to have them ordained........ How could anyone genuinely desiring Orthodoxy take them seriously?
It was my understanding that the monophysites basically had their own set off areas at these seminaries similar to Orthodox studies departments at non Orthodox institutions (Still dumb but its not like Orthodox bishops are ordaining these people.)
It's their way of generating unity amidst the priesthoods so there's more support for a reunion of the two churches. Whether that will be a true union or a false union is at the mercy of God, imo. That said, I give due credit to the Coptics for ending ecumenical dialogue with the catholics over fiducia supplicans 🤣
I saw your comment in someones live chat saying that you were really struggling with $uicid€ a week or so ago. I hope your doing better now. Just know you dont go seen unnoticed. And you are appreciated brother.
Been saying this exact same thing since I was a uneducated Protestant Pastor.
Could anyone please tell me what the recording of the psalm in the intro is? It sounds beautiful!
ruclips.net/video/C6aNB21daqg/видео.htmlsi=x_DoysO8VLfBgSGo
@@OrthodoxReview Thank you!
@@sebastokrator9426 😊
Seminary is a spiritual and cultural immersion more than it is an academic one. Damick pointed out that an MDiv is a professional, not academic degree! The coursework is not that hard (just an extensive survey of a broad subject matter). Guys who don’t like an academic environment go to St. Tikhon’s because it’s strictly a Vocational school.
It's still a lot of money, and unnecessary education (Ba, that is)
I think the numbers crisis is going to eventually force this issue (same with the overlapping jurisdictional issue). The coming generations have not received a wealth transfer from their forebearers and as such the thought of going six figures into debt is basically unthinkable. Also (what do proverbs say about this whole usurious acedemia project?).
Its also worth noting that historically seminaries and academia have served as the wost cause of "latin captivity" and such dilution of Orthodox teaching by heterodox ideas.
American orthodoxy can go bezpopovtsy. Come over to like moldova you'll be shocked at how low the bar can sometimes be
Creating a culture within the Church that makes ordination both desirable and attainable begins with changing the way we treat our existing clergy in both visible and invisible ways.
I disagree with the notion of “democratic” priest selection for two reasons. First, the Bishop has a bird’s eye view of the diocese and its needs and growth and in this way can better determine where the gifts of a particular priest will be of greatest benefit. Second, parish politics are real and “family name” and financial contribution size could in some cases tend to create larger dynamics that would be harmful not just to those who have a calling to the priesthood but to parishes and ultimately to the Church herself.
I’m in ROCOR’s Chicago and Mid America Archdiocese and believe that most archdioceses should have online schools like ours available, which increase the accessibility both geographically and financially of ecclesiastic education. This answer speaks not only to the shortage of priests but also to enriching the lay leadership in parishes, and even helping high school students to discern possible callings to the priesthood or diaconate.
I agree that time spent in monastic settings is valuable - to all of us but certainly to clergy and candidates. Remember, however, that priest candidates are mainly married, most with small or young children, and their spouses and children need to have something to live on, as well as practical support, should their husbands and fathers go away for some interval or regular intervals for development at a monastery.
This circles back to how we treat our clergy today. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I don’t believe many parishes own adjacent housing for their clergy. A house and a car (uniformly modest) that come with the job at any given parish would remove a huge burden and allow clergy to work part time at most at a secular job and allow them to focus on the more than full time work of tending the flock.
Wow, that was a long comment. Thank you if you read this far.
I did read it all, and you make some fantastic points!
I'm curious... Where are you getting the idea that required education for clergy is a 20th century innovation? It very much isn't. Clergy, including many of the famous saints you're thinking of, were often very highly educated. St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil the Great, etc. were all the products of the best education of their time... *and* good spiritual formation.
I say that as a priest who agrees that we need to find a better, more flexible model (or models) for training priests that emphasizes formation in the parish more. But in the past, when clergy were uneducated, that was mostly during times of persecution, like under the Turkokratia, when Muslims were forbidding that education. There are also lots of saints who talked about and worked hard on increasing the level of education of the clergy.
I do think there should be exceptions, I do think a lot more of the formation should happen at the parish level, I do think we should remove obstacles in people's way, but I don't think it's true or wise to see clergy education as a modern, unnecessary extra. In terms of removing obstacles, it's worth mentioning that in the Antiochian Archdiocese, the archdiocese pays for the cost of the seminary education for all archdiocesan seminarians, which is a major positive.
It's modern scolasticism I see as the obstacle. Proper theological education is key. Unnecessary secular education, not so much.
@@OrthodoxReview
Amen.
There have been Priests that were made Priests based on being humble who struggled with the schooling.
What is the name of your hat?
Šajkača
I’m sad it’s so noisy where you are. It’s so quiet out here in the rural industrial park…. 🙏🏻🥰☦️
It's not that bad. I usually record a little earlier in the day.
wow not what i expected....great great take......Orthodoxy is growing and many middle aged men did not know they were being trained for the priesthood in their life experiences ......and because obviously married men are welcome it is obvious older men can be priests i believe......a faithful married man guiding his house in a Godly way is best training
Amen. I agree. This problem is unfortunately a lot worse than most people realise. I’ve been married almost a decade, in my early ‘40s. My spiritual father is a monastic and I was approached by him five years ago to pursue the diaconate and, one day, God willing, the priesthood. I did the St. Stephen’s certificate program (which I would highly recommend to those who can’t afford or can’t qualify for a regular seminary degree, which has outrageous requirements to qualify). And even in my current situation, after being strung along and given no real plan, I am no closer to ordination than I was before I started. It’s very frustrating, and still, the Church shows absolutely no interest in addressing this problem. It hurts to say this, but they clearly do not care.
The other problem is bloated parish councils filled with out-of-touch types with no real spiritual life. May the Lord forgive my harsh language there, but it is the truth. I was sent to a parish recently that said they were interested in having a deacon. Now, suddenly, they seem to have changed their minds. Even the priest has his hands tied on it, supposedly. It is outrageous. God help us.
I wanna say I just found your channel and watched A LOT of your videos. You owe me a amends cause you have hurt my bank account. 😂 Thanks
Forgive me, a sinner!
What do you think about the Coptic practice of having priests spend 40 days learning the services in a monastery? I believe that’s all they do prior to ordination.
That seems much more of an organic way to learn to be a priest.
There is a Russian practice where the newly ordained has to serve the liturgy and other services for 40 days straight
That's a universal Orthodox practice, it may not always happen, but it's the ideal in all jurisdiction. I even know of one instance where the Ecumenical Patriarch himself served as the chanter one day, so that a newly ordained priest could celebrate during his first 40 days, apparently there was something going on at the Phanar that day and most the chanters and priests were busy and he thought it might be quite fun to play the chanter for a day... I suspect that was probably a rather nerve-wracking liturgy for the new priest.
I'll say this.
I think part of the problem is Non-Monastic, in some cases anti-monastic, Bishops. They don't see that there are people in the Parishes with the Acumen to become Priests because they don't have fully developed inner lives and substitute the inner spiritual life with education. And so to be a Priest you MUST have an education. So it creates a blind spot and it means that less people with the Acumen to be Priests become Priests.
AMEN. You, dear friend, hit the nail right on the head. Couldn’t have said it better myself! A ROCOR priest (won’t say who) in the Northeast somewhere insulted my spiritual father to my face, after telling me my Antiochian seminary background “doesn’t count in ROCOR”. I regretfully say this, but it is unfortunately a fair number of those within the hierarchy who are exacerbating these problems.
@@charlesmaximus9161
Which Bishop doesn't accept AHOS in ROCOR? I have been recommended it alongside Jordanville's Online Training.
@@acekoala457
Was a priest that said that to me, unfortunately. Lord have mercy. You in the Northeast by any chance? That’s where I’m at (New England). That’s good that you were recommended both. Shows you must have a good priest.
If you don’t mind me asking, how exactly are they having you do both programs? Which AHOS program are you enrolled in? I’m pretty sure Jordanville’s pastoral school is ROCOR’s equivalent to AHOS’ St. Stephen’s program. Basically the same curriculum; the only major difference I could see was Jordanville’s online pastoral program has Slavonic courses.
I am a retired Lutheran pastor with an MDiv. Although I learned most of what I know about ministry and pastoral care post seminary, I would not trade the solid foundation and tools I learned from 8 years of theological college and seminary education. I served as a hospice chaplain for years. The hospice wanted me to train volunteers to handle the spiritual care of the patients and families. I refused. When asked why I replied that the hospice would not allow volunteers to deliver skilled nursing care, or volunteers to deliver the care of a trained social worker, and I would not presume that a well intentioned volunteer with no education in spiritual care and/or the ins and outs of the spiritual life could deliver the level of spiritual care required. We sell short what is really involved in guiding people on the spiritual path. It is not easy. That said, my education for the full 8 years cost the same as one semester of masters level education costs today. THAT should definitely be addressed, especially when a priest is entering a vocation that is no where near the top of the salary heap in contemporary America.
With all due respect, it needs to be a lot more than just “addressed”. Things have to change. It has to meet the standards and situations of life in an increasingly godless postmodern 21st century where most of the young and middle-aged men you will meet who are candidates for clergy can’t even afford to buy a house. And not only that, but most Orthodox seminaries (I’m probably being generous, as it is pretty much all of them) have as their minimum requirements that one first obtain a bachelors from a secular university before they can even think about applying for their M.Div. and Th.M. programs. Only two years college? Sorry, no seminary for you. Best they’ll do is a certificate program, which can and does sometimes serve as a pathway for the diaconate. This depends upon other factors as well, but that is a whole other can of worms.
I mean no disrespect, so, may God forgive me, but this is why there has been so much palpable frustration with your generation over this issue. That said, pastor, I do appreciate that you are at least somewhat conscious of the problem; that counts for something. Many boomer age folks won’t even acknowledge there’s a problem. Unfortunately, this applies to many older Orthodox as well, clergy and laity alike.
with respect to you only a humble poor person of no good account but education has a value but if I believed everything i learned in secular education would that save me? i take no issue with you valuing your education and where it led you but did your secular education make you better prepared than someone who wasnt educated in a secular way? by your answer you seem to think so as if only some people can be qualified to serve others? if by your experience in helping others which you did mot learn how to do from secular education then you could be able to train others to do so but you refused? and left it up to others to do so but you were asked? and if by your education you were allowed a place in the hospital system others were not but you gained experience that allowed you to learn and grow to do so and you excelled at it but when presented the opportunity to train others to do what you do but not even replace your position but to expand it for the care of others you refused? Im not condemning you for that but i feel like if i had the opportunity to make sure more people had more care and not less i would do it
Thank you my guy :)
I cant and most likely will never be able to afford college and would love the opportunity to serve the church but I've come to settle with the idea that the church doesn't really care about that
I’m going through something similar, brother. Please know that if you truly have a calling to serve and this is God’s will, then, from the bottom of my heart, I would invite you to reconsider settling on giving up. Believe me, dear brother, I know how frustrated and rejected and hurt you must feel. Pray for those within the church hierarchy who are sadly exacerbating this problem, as they will have to answer for their actions before the Lord. You have my prayers, Theotokos be with you! 🙏
@@charlesmaximus9161 and with you brother. Christ is risen 🙏 ☦️
@@crbgo9854
Truly He is risen! 🙏
Excellent suggestions. I would add continuing education is a must but a MDiv post undergrad degree just isn't feasible for a lot of good working and middle class men. They can serve as assistant priests under an experienced priest while they undergo this specialized clergy trade school. We really need to get away from the kooky academics popping up in esteemed Jesuit universities.
totally agree
Never saw you before. What about your 🇷🇸 hat???
A gift from @macemaster
He spent a month in Serbia last year. We did a livestream about it after he got back.
Requiring a degree is silly. Especially a "certified" degree that requires "academics" who arent the church to sign off on classes.
Very good suggestions! Correction though: The Antiochian Archdiocese does have a monastery: Our Lady of St. Laurence (western rite) Colorado
A Monastery that will not, at least in our lifetimes, have Bishops raised out of her.
Antioch needs Byzantine/Athonite Monasteries in America and Metropolitan Saba is working on that.
@@acekoala457 A western rite Orthodox bishop would be awesome, I'll be honest. Has there been one since the schism, historically speaking?
@@KnoxEmDown
Yes and no.
St. John of Shanghai attempted to raise up a "Western Rite Bishop" in the 20th Century and he immediately went full Schismo when he was consecrated and St. John was Censured by the Synod.
That first comment is 100%!
Nice Šajkaca!
Thanks!
Are you purposely wearing a Serbian sajkaca hat or?
Yes
@@OrthodoxReview Purpose being? - promoting Serbian tradition?
@Goodoldjustice2428 yup. I love my Serbian friends and family, as well as the many glorious and God bearing Serbian Orthodox saints!
What is the definition of "educated"? Does the church look for degrees in theology or like most places just any nonsensical degree that does not demonstrate you actually know anything.
MDiv
How many of Jesus Christs original apostles had high degree of education?
Bingo
Your beard isn't long enough - opinion disregarded
🤣🤣🤣
I hate today’s trend that you have to be educated. Frankly a little child understands the Gospel. I don’t need a phd in theology to do it.
Right, but I can't emphasize this enough, but this is about clergy formation, not how to be a Christian. Too often, conflate the two. You do not have to be clergy to be a good Christian and not every person who understands the Gospel well and is pious and holy would make good clergy. Clergy aren't superior to other Christians, but a very particular vocation within the Body of Christ.
Given the number of times I've heard Organism or Nestorianism or even Gnosticism and Neo-Platonism inadvertently preached by priests with an M.Div., I'm not entirely sure that's true. Are there other ways to learn patristics and theology than a seminary? Sure. But in my experience the problem we see today is that priests are undereducated, not overeducated.
Are you serbian? Or do you just like the hat :))? much love brother ❤️
🇷🇸🇷🇸🇷🇸
@@OrthodoxReview I know both of these questions are out of nowhere, but what do you think about the OCA?
@thug2196 I'm at an OCA parish, mine is pretty based.
The Antiochian’s have a Western Rite Monastery
That will not have a Bishop raised out of her, at least in our lifetimes.
A WR Bishop would be nice, but he would have to be Orthodox First and Western Rite Second.
I find it very interesting that you are wearing en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0ajka%C4%8Da
Cool.