What gets me is that it seems to have taken 60 years for Christians to come up with a rebuttals to Celsus (240 CE vs 180 CE) and this is the best they could come up with?
In fact there was very few Christian rebuttals of Greek philosophies in general Neoplatonism, Epicureanism etc. From what I can see Christian church father simply referred to and largely dismissed Hellenic beliefs as 'idol worship' without any deeper dissection.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 Thanks. And I wonder why they simply dismissed all Greco-Roman religion and philosophy as "idol worship". Could it be they did not have the brainpower to effectively refute them? They kept saying it was demons that brought it all into existence but the Romans and the Greeks would have been convinced that demons were part of the Christians' superstitions.
i suggest you to look into stoicism and greek philosophy. They themselves knew there was a huge flaw to their understanding when it came to mortality and the end of a man's life. The resurrection of Jesus Christ filled up that massive gap the greek philosophers and stoics couldn't figured out. How does man live forever? m@@edwardmiessner6502
@@edwardmiessner6502 Most of the early Christian leaders were not scholars. They were taken from all walks of life and didn't have the ability to debate their point of view. Not to mention, they weren't the martyrs they pretended to be and would have preferred to live by hiding in the shadows than directly challenging Roman beliefs.
It’s not like Celsus lived in a time of social media, where he’d have posted his thoughts, and he’d immediately have had Likes and Retweets and responses. Plus, sometimes it takes time to respond to someone. Here’s a response: Jesus was divine, and His message - indeed He Himself - was Love. Love > Logic.
It's a great tragedy that Celsus' full work has been lost. It must have been quite powerful, if the Christian authorities felt that they needed to go to such lengths to destroy it. Who knows, maybe one day a copy will be dug up somewhere, as happened with the Dead Sea scrolls, the Herculaneum library, and the Nag Hammadi library.
This makes me want to find whatever has been reconstructed of Celsus and read it. Really interesting. Not that I have the exact same issues as he did, but it's nice someone was noticing some of the absurdities way back nearer the start of it. I didn't realize you had posted. Will have to remember to check back periodically.
Cheers mate. Worth a read definitely. Important to remember Origen only decided to tackle the issues he wished to or had answers to. There may have been much more material unfortunately he didnt mention. Really we have no clue as to the size of Celsus' work.
He probably would have been a Muslim given the rationality of the concept of God and the purpose of human existence given in the Quran. There is no divine human being, crucified god, and no resurrection of this said god to be a salvific event.
@@BenM61He most certainly would not have been a Mohammedan, me old chum. The same theological issues are present in Islam, for the most part, since it’s still mired in Abrahamic-style ontology.
Certainly could have done better I think although the Christian stance has always been to retreat back into reliance on faith when cold reasoning doesn't work (and which Origen also does when required).
Another instalment of my favourite series! It does seem that logic disappeared with the ascent of Christianity. Poor Celsus was arguing with the deaf. When we think that Origene's ridiculous rebuttals represented the best Christians had to throw at pagan wisdom, history takes on a sinister light.
Thx Sarah. I do feel Origen has to do plenty of mental gymnastics in order to defend Jesus as divine. Some of his defences and arguments are pretty makeshift and poor.
I've seen different places that people claim Celsus to be the originator of the idea that the resurrection appearances were merely visions, but I don't see that here, and I can't find any primary material relating to that. Do you happen to know where this idea is found in quotes from Celsus?
I'm not sure that it's said in exactly that fashion. Origen does write that Celsus noted that a real divine being resurrected would hardly be proving his divinity to his followers by mundane things like eating fish etc. Quote from Origen below.. 'Moreover, it appears indubitable that after His resurrection He ate a piece of fish; for, according to our view, He assumed a (true) body, as one born of a woman. “But,” objects Celsus, “the body of a god does not make use of such a voice as that of Jesus, nor employ such a method of persuasion as he.” Can't see any any where he comments directly on his reappearance being a vision unfortunately.
We believe that God is for justice and won’t let a crime go unpunished and we believe that the perfect God who was blameless chose himself to die for the world because he loved it and bore it punishment
@@grutsthefoodman3645 bro you just ruined your whole argument say he’s not God ok but to say he didn’t exist is the most wild statement I’ve ever heard did Alexander the Great exist plus sources write about Jesus 20-40 years after his death read Josephus (not including Christian sources)
Celsus is NOT smarter than Origen. It’s simply that even the best of the best logician cannot win. Using logic to attempt to defend Christianity is a losing proposition. If even Aristotle or Chrysippus who are two best of the very best logicians were Christians they couldn’t win this debate.
@@PaultheSheik Sure sounds like Celsus was the smarter guy then! Dude wasnt going around mentally kneecapping his intellect by choosing to believe in the unprovable.
@@druidriley3163 I think you are quite ignorant. How come all they great philosophers including Socrates, Plato, etc. believed in the Gods? These were among the greatest logicians, and yet they believed in the supernatural which is what Christianity is. So, you my friend (a hater of Christianity) who is nowhere as skilled in logic as these people I mention, are on your own.
@@Atylonisus "kneecapping his intellect by choosing to believe in the unprovable." but he was roman pagan (idk which city, cause it affect their tradition. different city different believe)...
This critique adds a new meaning to what Paul said in I Corinthians 1:18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." However, the fact that Christianity is still thriving after two thousand years is a testament to the next verse. "For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?"
@@TheEvolver311 Fantasies is quite interesting and it wasn’t the same religion gods had been added and taken away unlike Christianity which even critical scholars like Bart Ehrman will say that the Bible is 99% accurate today especially with the intended meaning
@Jesusiscomingback-jc8nf Most Christian bibles are very unfaithful to the original text with many alterations made by modern editors to try and force the text to align with Christian dogma
@@TheEvolver311 very untrue what verse are you talking about considering we have many biblically manuscripts that only disagree on small spelling errors which like I said even Bart Ehrman says modern Bible translations are more than 99% accurate and the point is still given across. Also when do you believe this change happened because it’s believed the creed found in 1 Corinthians 15 is one of the most well preserved and oldest pieces of the New Testament even skeptics say this was written when pall went to Jerusalem only a few years after Christ. Read the church fathers and the apostles creed 125 AD. Christian dogma has been the same for quite awhile.
I don’t think Celsus was exaggerating Jesus’ “lament” given that’s how Celsus interpreted it. One can also bring up Jesus’ crying out “my god, my god, why have you forsaken me?” as Jesus acting ungodly. I wonder which gospel Celsus read to make up his arguments..
It would be REALLY interesting to know which gospels he had access to including the various non-canonical ones which were also floating around. However all the points he makes are found in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John as far as I have found.
John 9:39 Jesus said " I came to judge the people of this world. I am here to give sight to the blind and to make blind everyone who can see.".. a verse to ponder...people of the ancient time are like us today,spiritually blind ,doubters ,assuming to know everything...when in fact most of us are blind..
Matthew 13:10-12 "10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” 11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them."
Great video. I've been wondering whether the gospel writers were really trying to write an actual history ? I saw a video with Prof. Dennis Macdonald the other day in which he claims it was more likely they were trying to create meaning from the life of Jesus the historical man and his teachings by creating an allegorical story for him; that it was never meant to be taken literally. Motifs from Homer's Odyssey and other Greek classics etc were used to craft the story. It was later Christians that mistook it all as an actual historical event.
Thx! May well be actually. Many of the stories make no sense - Why did Lazarus not stay with Jesus after he was brought to life? He should have been his most ardent disciple. Why did the three kIngs never come back to visit 'god incarnate'? John the Baptist as well?
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 It appears on the surface that it wasn't Lazarus who declined to be Jesus' disciple, but rather that Jesus, after having brunch with Lazarus at his house, simply ghosted him and acquired a new beloved one. Alternatively it appears that Lazarus became the beloved disciple and Jesus renamed him John. Lazarus comes from Eleazar which means "God helps", and John comes from Yehohanan which means "God is gracious".
These are age old questions about the nature of God, it is akin to asking why God doesn’t show up to everyone and say he is there but rather leaves clues here and there for men to discern ??
"he's real!! You don't, uh... You LACK THE FAITH to understand why it's TRUE! W-what do you mean, "Free will can't exist if Judas was predestined to betray Jesus?" Don't question my religion that's uhhhh PERSECUTION YEAH What do you mean "why doesn't God make it irrefutably clear that he exists with massive miracles or even small verifiable tests??" you can only engage in my religion using MY sources and MY words and MY worldview REEEEE What do you mean, "how can God be omnipotent and omniscient, and yet let evil exist??" Uh uh uh God's plan!! Yeah, it's uh... Not for us lowly humans to know! So what if he allows wars, child predators, disease, general misunderstandings, religious schisms, unhappiness in marriage, and poverty to still exist?! It's all part of his Divine Plan (TM)(C)(R) and FUCK you for even asking!! Also, y-you're so r-rude to me because you don't belieeeeeve, I bet you want to kill meeeee ohhh I'm so persecuted but also pleeeease martyr me it's my highest honor
@@Vpy2023 they're very GOOD age old questions too, because Christians never had a satisfactory response to them. God can't do anything, it seems, unless humanity paves the way for it first. At which point, where did God ever need to come into the picture?
3 месяца назад+1
Can we increase the narrator volume in these videos? As they are currently a bit hard to hear? 💙
The two theories aren't mutually exclusive either. Jesus, fully human and divine, could have "seen" from the cross that despite His ultimate sacrifice, 95% of the world would shrug. That sounds excruciatingly painful.
Your presentation is very fair to both "sides". If anything, it emphasizes that Origen did not have the benefit of the insights of 1,500+ years of future Christian theologians. His work was amazing, but then came Augustine, Aquinas, and others. I do find it amusing that Celsus repeatedly employs the rhetorical argument that God (or Jesus) "...could have done better by doing X..." That is itself a prideful argument, because any human positioned in a single day, month, year or lifetime can't fathom God's divine wisdom or plan. That we converse today, nearly 2,000 years later, on these matters proves Jesus "proclamations" are more than sufficient to their purpose.
This really does feel like a Facebook debate, reasonable Celsus vs FatherforChrist-Origen3. Same tactic, any criticism heard or unheard is evil, and therefor paint all opponents as devil workers when cornered.
This Celsus presumes to be wiser than Christ! He inquires on motivations that only the Son of God knows. The disciples and believers were empowered to be messengers of the risen Jesus who will come again to finally renew the world.
If any of us understood the nature of the Mystery that Jesus was performing and the nature of the cup that he mentions then a lot of these questions would likely be answered. He expired prematurely because he didn’t have the antidote.
I am a Christian with unshakable faith in Christ however I admit that Celsus who was at best a second rate or even third rate philosopher ran rings around Origen who was the best of the best in Christian scholarship. This is why I tell fellow Christian’s and particularly those in the field of apologetics to stop their futile attempts. Are they greater than Origen, and yet even Origen got owned! Christianity is purely through faith.
Thx for watching! But shouldn't it be the other way around? Use of Science, logic and reasoning rather than relying on 'blind faith'. Surely a diety worth believing in would have more respect for someone using reason (even if they come up with the wrong answer) than someone simply defaulting to a belief without proper thought?
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 Paulthesheik is right that apologetics is useless. But concerning faith, if by faith he means we should just accept and blindly believe, I think that is incorrect. Faith is supposed to be the means to the end, you are supposed to believe in the testimony of the saints, and then put it to practice in such a way that the miraculous displays a believer performs can be observed by the logical and the reasoning minds. In other words, 1 Thessalonians 1:5, the gospel comes not in word only, but also power and in the Holy Spirit. In other words, Christians were supposed to do the same works as Jesus, and even greater. But I guess some settled for apologetics and philosophy, and the rest with blind faith.
No it is not purely through faith. That’s conceding that our religion has no basis or justification of existence. Origen is considered an heretic by the church TODAY proving he wasn’t as “WISE” as you make him out to be
Brother are you serious right now?? Celcus brought up the most silliest argument against Christianity most of them are his mere opinions and others have been refuted and origen actually did refute him you should read his complete writtings and if he didn't I will refute them for you lol everytging at least in this video is very simply refuted
Jesus needed show him self to crowds of people after his death. But when he does do that oh well we don’t have any other independent sources…like what do you want.
We would really substantial independent sources, not his own followers claiming 'that many saw him' for this remarkable resurrection claim to be taken more seriously I'm afraid. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” as Carl Sagan used to say. Muslims claim Mohammed split the moon in half for instance and it was seen by followers but we have no independent witnesses and I'm pretty sure you would not simply believe this claim going just by what his followers claimed.
Why don't we though? Can you imagine the excitement that an actually resurrected being would stir? There would be no need for the martyrdoms because no one would have questioned anything. At the very least this is a sadistic way to manipulate mankind. Christians argue that it's because belief is so important, but it only makes doubt necessary. If God really loves the world why has he made it so difficult to reasonably accept? Can you imagine if we had Pontius seeing Jesus resurrected and telling the Emperor? It would have transformed the empire overnight.
It simply makes more sense to make Jesus another mystery cult... There is nothing behind the scenes directing events, but there is a reality we can experience called divine. In places like John 17:20-26 we see this suggested directly but it's considered pagan to interpret it this way. The problem with this is Ephesians 2:11-22 says the whole point of the cross is to bring Jew and pagan together. Something has gone seriously wrong even if Jesus was a historical figure.
Another instance of this is Galatians 3:28-29 which expresses this mystical union again, this time asserting that those who know this one are the true seeds of Abraham and heirs to the kingdom of God... a suggestion of Revelation 22:1-5 which tells us all with the light will reign together. I'm not a Christian because they don't even understand their own mysteries...
@@frank.sophia I think there was excitement about Christianity. It expanded rapidly because of testimonies like this. People hold on to beliefs and can be stubborn to the . Saying that some aren’t convinced is not an argument Saying if Pilate told Augustine the empire would change over nigh I doubt. When Constantine converted after Christianity already existing for a while it still took 2-300 years for it to rid paganism. Also if Augustine heard about Jesus I’m not sure how much he would care or be convinced. Like Celsius he wouldn’t think the god could become a man. And this Jesus guy seemed to be a weak god that was killed by Roman forces without push back.
God obviously has a huge ego and a liking for the dramatic. He plans the whole thing, scene by scene, full story board. And takes the starring role. And steals the show with a sorrowful, very human speech. To a crowd of weeping, grovelling, humans, under a stormy sky. An Oscar worthy performance....captured the essence of humanity perfectly....bravo👏 Call me a critic....but I don't really take this God seriously.
What i don't understand is the big contradictions, like jesus appearing only his boon followers, instead of Pilate, like his boon followers are having hallucinations was written by his followers. If it was all propaganda the writers of the gospels will write passages about jesus visiting the Sanhedrin after his resurrection. Dale Allison's book in the resurrection examines both sides. Allison is smarter than Origen.
There is a lot of what Celsus said that Origen did not respond to and therefore is lost to the historical record. R. Joseph Hoffman postulated that 20% of On the True Word is missing. I suppose that what is missing Origen thouht to be far too shameful to read, let alone pen a response. Example, what Celsus would have remarked about Mark 14:51-52.
@@Jesusiscomingback-jc8nf Celsus wrote his polemic 50 to 60 years prior to Origen's apologetic response. If On the True Word was worse than Reddit athiest threads then why couldn't Christians come up with a sufficient response in a timely manner?
@@EdwardM-t8p because people didn’t write down everything back then secondly I’ve watched three of this man’s videos and they are not very good arguments I’ve heard good arguments and wrestled with skepticism but these just suck
@@Jesusiscomingback-jc8nf You know what the best argument is? He said he would return in the disciples' lifetime. He's 2,000 years late now. That makes him a failed prophet. Case closed! Seriously, what makes you think he's going to come back?
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 Jesus did appear to of 500 people and in tradition Pontus pilot converted but when these are mentioned you well… theirs no other source that verifies it. Not how you do history.
@@FosterDuncan1 Thx for responding. Well we only have Paul claiming this in 1 Corinthians. I find it a bit odd that none of the apostles or the (anonymous) gospel writers or even any of the 500 didn't manage to find the time to write their own accounts of this most wondrous event. If I saw a crucified man coming back to life I would most certainly be shouting about it from the roof tops, calling the Roman authorities to show them that this was truly a divine being, and dragging the Jewish hierarchy to see him so they realized the Messiah was really with them. Curiously none of what we would expect happened. Paul's claim therefore is only a claim. As for Pontius Plate converting, as you say it may be tradition but no independent source mentions this important event.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 even if you are skeptical of New Testament all agree that Paul write 1st Corinthians. You saying you do multiple sources to verify an event you are throwing out 90% of ancient history. Not how you do history. And is ultimately unconvincing
So you believe that Romulus ascended to heaven and became a god, right? Because there are sources that make that claim. And you believe that Julius Caesar was descended from the Trojan hero Aeneas, who was in turn descended from the goddess Venus. Don't you? Because we also know that is true "according to tradition." And of course you must believe all of the extraordinary acts attributed to the Buddha, right? Because those are attested in sources and according to tradition.
Very interesting. I believe the reason Jesus died first before the others was because he was "wiped and violently beaten half to death" before they put Him on the Cross, whereas the other two were not. The story has a deeper meaning as well. The two Thieves represent two types of Humanity. Those who accept God and those who reject Him. We are all presented as "Thieves" before God because we have all robbed Him of what is rightfully His. It's all very esoteric.
Judas being used as a puppet by God. That’s one way you can look at it. But I don’t believe he used Judas necessarily, he used free will, and also knowing the human condition, and is omnipotent which some people use as reasoning for predetermination. It’s a tricky thing to dice apart, this Reasonings of God. Remember, God also knew Esau in his mother’s room and hated him. That was before he was even born. Kind of points to the spirit and knowing the spirit of the particular individual to me.
Resurrection and saving man from sin is a pedestrian miracle? I dont think this Celsus would have been born if Jesus didn't gave his life on the cross..
it's simplistic to assume that Jesus would not have been crucified if Judas hadn't betrayed him. This is assuming the Jewish leaders would not have been able to find Jesus in spite him having a very public ministry. Like they needed judas in order to find Jesus? What's the basis for that? Its also simplistic to think that Jesus telling Judas of his betrayal or Peter's denial means Jesus couldn't stop them. The point wasn't to stop them. Jesus was simply just letting them know he was aware, and to demonstrate his powers, and in Peters case to humble him after he claimed he would never deny Jesus. Even as a kid I thought this was pretty obvious. Its amazing that adults would make such dumb arguments.
Quite true that they could still have crucified him - but it was his 'prophesy' at the last supper and that's all we have to go on.Anything else regarding him possibly being arrested and put to death would be simple speculation. Regarding Jesus telling Judas he is aware of the betrayal this is in fact is a VERY powerful reason for Judas changing his behaviour and intention if Jesus had sufficient influence over him.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 exactly, Judas may have never regretted his actions if Jesus hadn't told him that he knew. Also, If Judas had really understood Jesus he should have known he would be forgiven, instead of just killing himself. Contrast that to Paul who persecuted many people and ended up become the most influential person in the church.
Why do those people not understand that the time of the Gentiles must be fulfilled. Why are they incapable of understanding that Daneil 4 empires leading into the times of the ten toes must occur that all be fulfilled before the wrath comes into play. Christ is in human form had carried out his out his human side fear concerns a chance to escape. His divine side was that his powers be suspended in order that he went through what was planned. Further in contrast to the rubbers what had christ gone through when he fell into the hands of Gentiles beaten mocked carry his own cross the works. Remember second mission the dead shall hear my voice thus the 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the Earth being where the world of the dead. He went to visit Satan kingdom to take him on then free some who came back to him. It called putting on the body of Adam. The flesh which itself has limits.
"why do... People not understand..." My sister in Christ, I don't think ANYbody understood this word salad. And that's Christianity's problem. You HAVE to necessarily bog your acolytes down with a combination of stories that are held concurrently to be fact, or an extended metaphor, or a veiled winking work of fiction serving the purpose of a Fable. Why would any rational person be attracted to a god of Wrath and Subterfuge? One who refuses to explain himself and demands an eternity of self-masturbatory Me-worship? Does an omnipotent all loving being REALLY need to have his Tamagotchi pets assuade his ego for all time?
This is the worse video opposing the crucifixion I’ve ever seen the garden of gethsemane is answered in Ephesus and if the resurrection was something that was a normal occurrence it wouldn’t be amazing you also completely missed the point of the crucifixion it’s the point of salvation not the miracle no wonder he was cooked and even disgraced by later pagans because Origen
Similar criticism to the one that pagans levelled at Jesus - that he never showed his supposed divinity and miracles in front of Greek and Roman scholars who wouldn't have been easily fooled as common fishermen
Celsus was alive 150 years after Jesus Christ our Savior died and Rose again 3 days later. Why would his account be more accurate than the actual books written by the folks that were there at the time? And if you are going to say those first writers made it up…we could say that about any ancient text…so if you do say that and you are honest you cannot trust Celsus writing either.
The gospels unfortunately weren’t written by eye witnesses but by unknown authors fifty or more years after Jesus when there had been plenty of time for myth making to do its work. Josephus in fact is the closest historian we have to Jesus’ time and he reports no miracles, no Lazarus walking around having been brought back from the dead, no lepers or blind people having been miraculously cured etc and no Jesus having been crucified and resurrecting himself despite being a Jerusalem resident
Hi most of the BT testament books are written by Paul who never met Jesus. And the other books contain few if any miracles. Much of the ‘miracles’ only really appear in the gospels and Acts also written by an unknown author
of course you've left out the strong and straight forward arguments for Jesus being God and that is Jesus also being a man. the man part of Jesus also has a voice and we all need to hear that. Jesus wasn't just some God figure who could do all kinds of miracles He emptied Himself of many powers to become a man. He was a real man and in that state He limited Himself. Judas was also a real man, he wasn't just playing a role. we focus on the 30 pieces a silver, but Judas was much more interested in pushing Jesus out and forcing Him to take the throne of Israel and then kicking out the Romans. we all want to force Jesus out , but that isn't how it works. Jesus is interested in changing the man not the big miracle that causes collective salvation. this is why Jesus heals people because man is the highest creation and man gets the attention. that fact that Jesus heals man is more of a proof for Godship than some big miracle. man is dead in sin, Jesus wants to make dead men live. as for Hell and everlasting torments go, when examining the words used we can see a type of poetic hyping for intensity. Gehenna was a dump that burned outside of Jerusalem. it was a very viable place seen by all. Jesus used that as a picture of Hell. well Gehenna isn't burning today but all the trash burned there was destroyed for ever. so Celsus is making words equal to cement with no ability to change. he has taken the flexibility of word use and restricted it. then he adds a Greek culture for proofs to that attack on Jesus. so the Bible is very open to Hell not being torture for ever, and man being so important that he gets the miracles and not a great audience. for this reason Jesus is still remembered by the people today because He touches all man in the heart individually. each man can feel Jesus healing their souls from sin. men choose to live a life without sin all on their own because they listened to the voice of Jesus
It took 70 years for the Christians to try to rebut Celsus. Even after 70 years, the Christians were so threatened by his book, that the church told Origen to rebut it. And if Origen did "own" Celsus why did the Christians destroy all of Celsus' books? What else did Celsus say that Origen didn't address? Guess we'll never know
Doesn't the number 3 in world mythology always represent the same thing? Triumph over the season of death? Based on the sacred promise Mother Nature demonstrates to all who incarnate in her world. Winter is her season of death which lasts 3 months. And is always, always, always, followed by the season of life. Known as Spring. Which is also 3 months long. And is the season of rebirth and reconstitution and resurrection. Also every month the moon dies for 3 days... and then is reborn anew as a sacred new moon. This is why dying and rising gods are entombed for 3 days... before they resurrect. This is why Hermes Trismegistus was known as... "The Thrice Great." As he was famous for triumphing over the season of death. Just like Jesus The Christ did... sometime later. This is what the 3 Mithraic wise men represent. And this is all the Christian Trinity actually symbolizes. It isn't about the individual literary personas but rather the sacred underlying promise of the number 3. Which is what most parental deity religions are selling. Entrance into Studio 54... for only the best people. Which has long been a hugely profitable marketing concept. As the staggering material wealth of the Roman Catholic Empire demonstrates.💙
What gets me is that it seems to have taken 60 years for Christians to come up with a rebuttals to Celsus (240 CE vs 180 CE) and this is the best they could come up with?
In fact there was very few Christian rebuttals of Greek philosophies in general Neoplatonism, Epicureanism etc. From what I can see Christian church father simply referred to and largely dismissed Hellenic beliefs as 'idol worship' without any deeper dissection.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 Thanks. And I wonder why they simply dismissed all Greco-Roman religion and philosophy as "idol worship". Could it be they did not have the brainpower to effectively refute them? They kept saying it was demons that brought it all into existence but the Romans and the Greeks would have been convinced that demons were part of the Christians' superstitions.
i suggest you to look into stoicism and greek philosophy. They themselves knew there was a huge flaw to their understanding when it came to mortality and the end of a man's life. The resurrection of Jesus Christ filled up that massive gap the greek philosophers and stoics couldn't figured out. How does man live forever? m@@edwardmiessner6502
@@edwardmiessner6502 Most of the early Christian leaders were not scholars. They were taken from all walks of life and didn't have the ability to debate their point of view. Not to mention, they weren't the martyrs they pretended to be and would have preferred to live by hiding in the shadows than directly challenging Roman beliefs.
It’s not like Celsus lived in a time of social media, where he’d have posted his thoughts, and he’d immediately have had Likes and Retweets and responses. Plus, sometimes it takes time to respond to someone.
Here’s a response: Jesus was divine, and His message - indeed He Himself - was Love. Love > Logic.
It's a great tragedy that Celsus' full work has been lost. It must have been quite powerful, if the Christian authorities felt that they needed to go to such lengths to destroy it. Who knows, maybe one day a copy will be dug up somewhere, as happened with the Dead Sea scrolls, the Herculaneum library, and the Nag Hammadi library.
That would be one of the great finds of the modern era! We can hope.
I would sustain myself on the tears of Modern Christians being unable to defend their faith against... A corpse, long-since reduced to atoms.
This makes me want to find whatever has been reconstructed of Celsus and read it. Really interesting. Not that I have the exact same issues as he did, but it's nice someone was noticing some of the absurdities way back nearer the start of it.
I didn't realize you had posted. Will have to remember to check back periodically.
Cheers mate. Worth a read definitely. Important to remember Origen only decided to tackle the issues he wished to or had answers to. There may have been much more material unfortunately he didnt mention. Really we have no clue as to the size of Celsus' work.
Too bad Celsius didn’t get the opportunity to talk about Islam
He probably would have been a Muslim given the rationality of the concept of God and the purpose of human existence given in the Quran. There is no divine human being, crucified god, and no resurrection of this said god to be a salvific event.
Lmao. Let’s be thankful he wasn’t otherwise things may have been even more violent
@@BenM61He most certainly would not have been a Mohammedan, me old chum. The same theological issues are present in Islam, for the most part, since it’s still mired in Abrahamic-style ontology.
Im glad you just accepted there was no such a thing as "islam" in the ancient times.
@@BenM61 hahahaha not at all. Celsus would have laughed at the absurdities of islam and it's violent behavior.
Love your work!
Thanks for your support my friend!
It's amusing how feeble, slippery, and thoroughly unconvincing many of Origen's responses are.
Certainly could have done better I think although the Christian stance has always been to retreat back into reliance on faith when cold reasoning doesn't work (and which Origen also does when required).
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361
If it's broke, don't fix it!
...wait
Another instalment of my favourite series! It does seem that logic disappeared with the ascent of Christianity. Poor Celsus was arguing with the deaf. When we think that Origene's ridiculous rebuttals represented the best Christians had to throw at pagan wisdom, history takes on a sinister light.
Thx Sarah. I do feel Origen has to do plenty of mental gymnastics in order to defend Jesus as divine. Some of his defences and arguments are pretty makeshift and poor.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 Yes, and what I find irritating is that Origen typically evades Celsus' arguments or uses straw arguments in return.
Who knows .., maybe celsus could even explain how the shroud of Turin was created
@@sarahahmed113sounds like the conversations one has with flat earthers and COVID denialists... :/
@@usergiodmsilva1983PT Have you taken your booster yet? You absolutely must.
I've seen different places that people claim Celsus to be the originator of the idea that the resurrection appearances were merely visions, but I don't see that here, and I can't find any primary material relating to that. Do you happen to know where this idea is found in quotes from Celsus?
I'm not sure that it's said in exactly that fashion. Origen does write that Celsus noted that a real divine being resurrected would hardly be proving his divinity to his followers by mundane things like eating fish etc. Quote from Origen below..
'Moreover, it appears indubitable that after His resurrection He ate a piece of fish; for, according to our view, He assumed a (true) body, as one born of a woman. “But,” objects Celsus, “the body of a god does not make use of such a voice as that of Jesus, nor employ such a method of persuasion as he.”
Can't see any any where he comments directly on his reappearance being a vision unfortunately.
I’ll never understand they love a human sacrifice that they use as argument against pagans.
Without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness Hebrews 9:22.
We believe that God is for justice and won’t let a crime go unpunished and we believe that the perfect God who was blameless chose himself to die for the world because he loved it and bore it punishment
Denying the crucifixion even from a non Christian perspective is wild and goes against historical analysis
@@Jesusiscomingback-jc8nfthe historical analysis is we don't know if Jesus even existed since all sources come after his death by decades
@@grutsthefoodman3645 bro you just ruined your whole argument say he’s not God ok but to say he didn’t exist is the most wild statement I’ve ever heard did Alexander the Great exist plus sources write about Jesus 20-40 years after his death read Josephus (not including Christian sources)
The thing is, it's obvious reading Against Celsus is that Celsus is clearly smarter than Origen and Origen has a hard time keeping up.
Celsus is NOT smarter than Origen. It’s simply that even the best of the best logician cannot win. Using logic to attempt to defend Christianity is a losing proposition. If even Aristotle or Chrysippus who are two best of the very best logicians were Christians they couldn’t win this debate.
@@PaultheSheik Logic certainly wins over Christianity. It shows it for the smoke and mirrors and magic show that it is.
@@PaultheSheik
Sure sounds like Celsus was the smarter guy then! Dude wasnt going around mentally kneecapping his intellect by choosing to believe in the unprovable.
@@druidriley3163 I think you are quite ignorant. How come all they great philosophers including Socrates, Plato, etc. believed in the Gods?
These were among the greatest logicians, and yet they believed in the supernatural which is what Christianity is. So, you my friend (a hater of Christianity) who is nowhere as skilled in logic as these people I mention, are on your own.
@@Atylonisus "kneecapping his intellect by choosing to believe in the unprovable." but he was roman pagan (idk which city, cause it affect their tradition. different city different believe)...
Truly truly blessed are those who use chapter breaks. ❤
This critique adds a new meaning to what Paul said in I Corinthians 1:18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." However, the fact that Christianity is still thriving after two thousand years is a testament to the next verse. "For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?"
All it means is that God is wiser and he embarrasses men in comparison
The ancient Egyptian religion lasted for over 3 thousand years
All it shows is people believe these fantasies
@@TheEvolver311 Fantasies is quite interesting and it wasn’t the same religion gods had been added and taken away unlike Christianity which even critical scholars like Bart Ehrman will say that the Bible is 99% accurate today especially with the intended meaning
@Jesusiscomingback-jc8nf
Most Christian bibles are very unfaithful to the original text with many alterations made by modern editors to try and force the text to align with Christian dogma
@@TheEvolver311 very untrue what verse are you talking about considering we have many biblically manuscripts that only disagree on small spelling errors which like I said even Bart Ehrman says modern Bible translations are more than 99% accurate and the point is still given across. Also when do you believe this change happened because it’s believed the creed found in 1 Corinthians 15 is one of the most well preserved and oldest pieces of the New Testament even skeptics say this was written when pall went to Jerusalem only a few years after Christ. Read the church fathers and the apostles creed 125 AD. Christian dogma has been the same for quite awhile.
Amazing,return of celsus.
🙏
Sir,how do you see the responses of origen to the judas argument?
You're welcome!
Thank you for your usual excellent content.
My pleasure!
I don’t think Celsus was exaggerating Jesus’ “lament” given that’s how Celsus interpreted it. One can also bring up Jesus’ crying out “my god, my god, why have you forsaken me?” as Jesus acting ungodly. I wonder which gospel Celsus read to make up his arguments..
It would be REALLY interesting to know which gospels he had access to including the various non-canonical ones which were also floating around. However all the points he makes are found in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John as far as I have found.
John 9:39 Jesus said " I came to judge the people of this world. I am here to give sight to the blind and to make blind everyone who can see.".. a verse to ponder...people of the ancient time are like us today,spiritually blind ,doubters ,assuming to know everything...when in fact most of us are blind..
Matthew 13:10-12 "10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” 11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them."
Verily I say to both of you, you have had your reward, UWU
sound levels are super low... but fascinating stuff
Sorry about that! newer videos should be better.
(30:50ff.) The Pauline note about the post-resurrection Jesus appearing to 500 of his followers is not in Acts, but in Ist Corinthians....
Great video. I've been wondering whether the gospel writers were really trying to write an actual history ? I saw a video with Prof. Dennis Macdonald the other day in which he claims it was more likely they were trying to create meaning from the life of Jesus the historical man and his teachings by creating an allegorical story for him; that it was never meant to be taken literally. Motifs from Homer's Odyssey and other Greek classics etc were used to craft the story. It was later Christians that mistook it all as an actual historical event.
Thx! May well be actually. Many of the stories make no sense - Why did Lazarus not stay with Jesus after he was brought to life? He should have been his most ardent disciple. Why did the three kIngs never come back to visit 'god incarnate'? John the Baptist as well?
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 It appears on the surface that it wasn't Lazarus who declined to be Jesus' disciple, but rather that Jesus, after having brunch with Lazarus at his house, simply ghosted him and acquired a new beloved one. Alternatively it appears that Lazarus became the beloved disciple and Jesus renamed him John.
Lazarus comes from Eleazar which means "God helps", and John comes from Yehohanan which means "God is gracious".
This isn’t really a good theory.
Thank you for the series.
You bet!
These are age old questions about the nature of God, it is akin to asking why God doesn’t show up to everyone and say he is there but rather leaves clues here and there for men to discern ??
"he's real!! You don't, uh... You LACK THE FAITH to understand why it's TRUE! W-what do you mean, "Free will can't exist if Judas was predestined to betray Jesus?" Don't question my religion that's uhhhh PERSECUTION YEAH
What do you mean "why doesn't God make it irrefutably clear that he exists with massive miracles or even small verifiable tests??" you can only engage in my religion using MY sources and MY words and MY worldview REEEEE
What do you mean, "how can God be omnipotent and omniscient, and yet let evil exist??" Uh uh uh God's plan!! Yeah, it's uh... Not for us lowly humans to know! So what if he allows wars, child predators, disease, general misunderstandings, religious schisms, unhappiness in marriage, and poverty to still exist?! It's all part of his Divine Plan (TM)(C)(R) and FUCK you for even asking!!
Also, y-you're so r-rude to me because you don't belieeeeeve, I bet you want to kill meeeee ohhh I'm so persecuted but also pleeeease martyr me it's my highest honor
@@Vpy2023 they're very GOOD age old questions too, because Christians never had a satisfactory response to them.
God can't do anything, it seems, unless humanity paves the way for it first. At which point, where did God ever need to come into the picture?
Can we increase the narrator volume in these videos? As they are currently a bit hard to hear? 💙
Sorry about that! Hopefully addressed in later videos
I will award Origen to become the winner of mental olympic 🤭
Certainly a contender amongst many I would say!
Dale allsons book in the resurrection is brilliant and examines both for and against Jesus. He is smarter than Origen anyway
Christ wasn’t crying out on the cross. He was singing the psalms on the cross! And they were amazed.
The two theories aren't mutually exclusive either. Jesus, fully human and divine, could have "seen" from the cross that despite His ultimate sacrifice, 95% of the world would shrug. That sounds excruciatingly painful.
@ Greater is the salvation of Christ than the transgressions of Adam.
is there a place to read celsus's book?
It doesn't exist anymore. Did you watch the video? He explains that
@@frauleinhohenzollern if it doesn't exist in any way he wouldn't be able to quote it, I wanted to know where he was getting the quotes from
i'm afraid as @JakeJohns-hx7tcyou points out would have to read Origen's work Contra Celsum which quotes Celsus verbatim in most places.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 thank you!
That shows that he makes things up@@ethanmarble2866
Your presentation is very fair to both "sides". If anything, it emphasizes that Origen did not have the benefit of the insights of 1,500+ years of future Christian theologians. His work was amazing, but then came Augustine, Aquinas, and others. I do find it amusing that Celsus repeatedly employs the rhetorical argument that God (or Jesus) "...could have done better by doing X..." That is itself a prideful argument, because any human positioned in a single day, month, year or lifetime can't fathom God's divine wisdom or plan. That we converse today, nearly 2,000 years later, on these matters proves Jesus "proclamations" are more than sufficient to their purpose.
This really does feel like a Facebook debate, reasonable Celsus vs FatherforChrist-Origen3. Same tactic, any criticism heard or unheard is evil, and therefor paint all opponents as devil workers when cornered.
Thx for watching! Origen does have a habit of strawmanning Celsus' arguments as well I think.
Excellent video!
Thank you very much!
Why is this so quiet
Lots of Reddit users here
This Celsus presumes to be wiser than Christ! He inquires on motivations that only the Son of God knows. The disciples and believers were empowered to be messengers of the risen Jesus who will come again to finally renew the world.
If any of us understood the nature of the Mystery that Jesus was performing and the nature of the cup that he mentions then a lot of these questions would likely be answered. He expired prematurely because he didn’t have the antidote.
I am a Christian with unshakable faith in Christ however I admit that Celsus who was at best a second rate or even third rate philosopher ran rings around Origen who was the best of the best in Christian scholarship. This is why I tell fellow Christian’s and particularly those in the field of apologetics to stop their futile attempts. Are they greater than Origen, and yet even Origen got owned! Christianity is purely through faith.
Thx for watching! But shouldn't it be the other way around? Use of Science, logic and reasoning rather than relying on 'blind faith'. Surely a diety worth believing in would have more respect for someone using reason (even if they come up with the wrong answer) than someone simply defaulting to a belief without proper thought?
Your bias is definitely showing. If you won't consider an argument due to your faith, you might as well not even watch a debate based on logic.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 Paulthesheik is right that apologetics is useless. But concerning faith, if by faith he means we should just accept and blindly believe, I think that is incorrect. Faith is supposed to be the means to the end, you are supposed to believe in the testimony of the saints, and then put it to practice in such a way that the miraculous displays a believer performs can be observed by the logical and the reasoning minds. In other words, 1 Thessalonians 1:5, the gospel comes not in word only, but also power and in the Holy Spirit. In other words, Christians were supposed to do the same works as Jesus, and even greater. But I guess some settled for apologetics and philosophy, and the rest with blind faith.
No it is not purely through faith. That’s conceding that our religion has no basis or justification of existence. Origen is considered an heretic by the church TODAY proving he wasn’t as “WISE” as you make him out to be
Brother are you serious right now?? Celcus brought up the most silliest argument against Christianity most of them are his mere opinions and others have been refuted and origen actually did refute him you should read his complete writtings and if he didn't I will refute them for you lol everytging at least in this video is very simply refuted
Celsus had some venom
Did go straight for the jugular!
Jesus needed show him self to crowds of people after his death. But when he does do that oh well we don’t have any other independent sources…like what do you want.
We would really substantial independent sources, not his own followers claiming 'that many saw him' for this remarkable resurrection claim to be taken more seriously I'm afraid. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” as Carl Sagan used to say. Muslims claim Mohammed split the moon in half for instance and it was seen by followers but we have no independent witnesses and I'm pretty sure you would not simply believe this claim going just by what his followers claimed.
Why don't we though?
Can you imagine the excitement that an actually resurrected being would stir?
There would be no need for the martyrdoms because no one would have questioned anything.
At the very least this is a sadistic way to manipulate mankind.
Christians argue that it's because belief is so important, but it only makes doubt necessary.
If God really loves the world why has he made it so difficult to reasonably accept?
Can you imagine if we had Pontius seeing Jesus resurrected and telling the Emperor?
It would have transformed the empire overnight.
It simply makes more sense to make Jesus another mystery cult...
There is nothing behind the scenes directing events, but there is a reality we can experience called divine.
In places like John 17:20-26 we see this suggested directly but it's considered pagan to interpret it this way.
The problem with this is Ephesians 2:11-22 says the whole point of the cross is to bring Jew and pagan together.
Something has gone seriously wrong even if Jesus was a historical figure.
Another instance of this is Galatians 3:28-29 which expresses this mystical union again, this time asserting that those who know this one are the true seeds of Abraham and heirs to the kingdom of God... a suggestion of Revelation 22:1-5 which tells us all with the light will reign together.
I'm not a Christian because they don't even understand their own mysteries...
@@frank.sophia I think there was excitement about Christianity. It expanded rapidly because of testimonies like this.
People hold on to beliefs and can be stubborn to the . Saying that some aren’t convinced is not an argument
Saying if Pilate told Augustine the empire would change over nigh I doubt. When Constantine converted after Christianity already existing for a while it still took 2-300 years for it to rid paganism.
Also if Augustine heard about Jesus I’m not sure how much he would care or be convinced. Like Celsius he wouldn’t think the god could become a man. And this Jesus guy seemed to be a weak god that was killed by Roman forces without push back.
Good for Celsus.
God obviously has a huge ego and a liking for the dramatic.
He plans the whole thing, scene by scene, full story board.
And takes the starring role.
And steals the show with a sorrowful, very human speech.
To a crowd of weeping, grovelling, humans, under a stormy sky.
An Oscar worthy performance....captured the essence of humanity perfectly....bravo👏
Call me a critic....but I don't really take this God seriously.
What i don't understand is the big contradictions, like jesus appearing only his boon followers, instead of Pilate, like his boon followers are having hallucinations was written by his followers. If it was all propaganda the writers of the gospels will write passages about jesus visiting the Sanhedrin after his resurrection. Dale Allison's book in the resurrection examines both sides. Allison is smarter than Origen.
Great video
Thanks buddy!
There is a lot of what Celsus said that Origen did not respond to and therefore is lost to the historical record. R. Joseph Hoffman postulated that 20% of On the True Word is missing. I suppose that what is missing Origen thouht to be far too shameful to read, let alone pen a response. Example, what Celsus would have remarked about Mark 14:51-52.
Or just too idiotic these were worse the Reddit level atheism
@@Jesusiscomingback-jc8nf Celsus wrote his polemic 50 to 60 years prior to Origen's apologetic response. If On the True Word was worse than Reddit athiest threads then why couldn't Christians come up with a sufficient response in a timely manner?
@@EdwardM-t8p because people didn’t write down everything back then secondly I’ve watched three of this man’s videos and they are not very good arguments I’ve heard good arguments and wrestled with skepticism but these just suck
I want to know which argument in here is a good response to Christian claims
@@Jesusiscomingback-jc8nf You know what the best argument is? He said he would return in the disciples' lifetime. He's 2,000 years late now. That makes him a failed prophet. Case closed!
Seriously, what makes you think he's going to come back?
Why is the flag post being moved so often in the video
Not sure I understand? Is there any particular point in the video you think is 'moving the flag post'?
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 Jesus did appear to of 500 people and in tradition Pontus pilot converted but when these are mentioned you well… theirs no other source that verifies it. Not how you do history.
@@FosterDuncan1 Thx for responding. Well we only have Paul claiming this in 1 Corinthians. I find it a bit odd that none of the apostles or the (anonymous) gospel writers or even any of the 500 didn't manage to find the time to write their own accounts of this most wondrous event. If I saw a crucified man coming back to life I would most certainly be shouting about it from the roof tops, calling the Roman authorities to show them that this was truly a divine being, and dragging the Jewish hierarchy to see him so they realized the Messiah was really with them. Curiously none of what we would expect happened. Paul's claim therefore is only a claim. As for Pontius Plate converting, as you say it may be tradition but no independent source mentions this important event.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 even if you are skeptical of New Testament all agree that Paul write 1st Corinthians. You saying you do multiple sources to verify an event you are throwing out 90% of ancient history. Not how you do history. And is ultimately unconvincing
So you believe that Romulus ascended to heaven and became a god, right? Because there are sources that make that claim. And you believe that Julius Caesar was descended from the Trojan hero Aeneas, who was in turn descended from the goddess Venus. Don't you? Because we also know that is true "according to tradition." And of course you must believe all of the extraordinary acts attributed to the Buddha, right? Because those are attested in sources and according to tradition.
Million feeding poor in jesus name is bigger miracle than splitting sea
Very interesting. I believe the reason Jesus died first before the others was because he was "wiped and violently beaten half to death" before they put Him on the Cross, whereas the other two were not. The story has a deeper meaning as well. The two Thieves represent two types of Humanity. Those who accept God and those who reject Him. We are all presented as "Thieves" before God because we have all robbed Him of what is rightfully His. It's all very esoteric.
According to Mark both '' thieves'' insulted Jesus, here is lack of contradictions in gospels for u.
Judas being used as a puppet by God. That’s one way you can look at it. But I don’t believe he used Judas necessarily, he used free will, and also knowing the human condition, and is omnipotent which some people use as reasoning for predetermination. It’s a tricky thing to dice apart, this Reasonings of God.
Remember, God also knew Esau in his mother’s room and hated him. That was before he was even born. Kind of points to the spirit and knowing the spirit of the particular individual to me.
Resurrection and saving man from sin is a pedestrian miracle? I dont think this Celsus would have been born if Jesus didn't gave his life on the cross..
it's simplistic to assume that Jesus would not have been crucified if Judas hadn't betrayed him. This is assuming the Jewish leaders would not have been able to find Jesus in spite him having a very public ministry. Like they needed judas in order to find Jesus? What's the basis for that?
Its also simplistic to think that Jesus telling Judas of his betrayal or Peter's denial means Jesus couldn't stop them. The point wasn't to stop them. Jesus was simply just letting them know he was aware, and to demonstrate his powers, and in Peters case to humble him after he claimed he would never deny Jesus.
Even as a kid I thought this was pretty obvious. Its amazing that adults would make such dumb arguments.
Quite true that they could still have crucified him - but it was his 'prophesy' at the last supper and that's all we have to go on.Anything else regarding him possibly being arrested and put to death would be simple speculation. Regarding Jesus telling Judas he is aware of the betrayal this is in fact is a VERY powerful reason for Judas changing his behaviour and intention if Jesus had sufficient influence over him.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 exactly, Judas may have never regretted his actions if Jesus hadn't told him that he knew.
Also, If Judas had really understood Jesus he should have known he would be forgiven, instead of just killing himself. Contrast that to Paul who persecuted many people and ended up become the most influential person in the church.
Why do those people not understand that the time of the Gentiles must be fulfilled. Why are they incapable of understanding that Daneil 4 empires leading into the times of the ten toes must occur that all be fulfilled before the wrath comes into play. Christ is in human form had carried out his out his human side fear concerns a chance to escape. His divine side was that his powers be suspended in order that he went through what was planned. Further in contrast to the rubbers what had christ gone through when he fell into the hands of Gentiles beaten mocked carry his own cross the works. Remember second mission the dead shall hear my voice thus the 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the Earth being where the world of the dead. He went to visit Satan kingdom to take him on then free some who came back to him. It called putting on the body of Adam. The flesh which itself has limits.
"why do... People not understand..."
My sister in Christ, I don't think ANYbody understood this word salad. And that's Christianity's problem.
You HAVE to necessarily bog your acolytes down with a combination of stories that are held concurrently to be fact, or an extended metaphor, or a veiled winking work of fiction serving the purpose of a Fable.
Why would any rational person be attracted to a god of Wrath and Subterfuge? One who refuses to explain himself and demands an eternity of self-masturbatory Me-worship? Does an omnipotent all loving being REALLY need to have his Tamagotchi pets assuade his ego for all time?
Why was jesus rising from stone grave like pyramid, where round stone
I’m back
1:22 The rising Christ is depicted wearing cellophane! 😂
👍👍👍
Thx friend!
This is the worse video opposing the crucifixion I’ve ever seen the garden of gethsemane is answered in Ephesus and if the resurrection was something that was a normal occurrence it wouldn’t be amazing you also completely missed the point of the crucifixion it’s the point of salvation not the miracle no wonder he was cooked and even disgraced by later pagans because Origen
why didn't the pagan gods reveal themselves?
Similar criticism to the one that pagans levelled at Jesus - that he never showed his supposed divinity and miracles in front of Greek and Roman scholars who wouldn't have been easily fooled as common fishermen
Remember Jesus didn't show his divinity when Pontius Pilate asked him to, and Romans were good at detecting frauds.
Jesus Christ is an allegory of the sun.
Jesus showed himself all over the city according to the bible.. not sure what celsius is on about
Earliest book of the gospels, the Book of Mark, says no one ever saw Jesus again after the women found the tomb empty.
Not true... apparently resurrected saints did, but not Jesus.
The Voice of ignorance manifests itself in this horrible commentary
From detention lol
Celsus was alive 150 years after Jesus Christ our Savior died and Rose again 3 days later. Why would his account be more accurate than the actual books written by the folks that were there at the time? And if you are going to say those first writers made it up…we could say that about any ancient text…so if you do say that and you are honest you cannot trust Celsus writing either.
The gospels unfortunately weren’t written by eye witnesses but by unknown authors fifty or more years after Jesus when there had been plenty of time for myth making to do its work. Josephus in fact is the closest historian we have to Jesus’ time and he reports no miracles, no Lazarus walking around having been brought back from the dead, no lepers or blind people having been miraculously cured etc and no Jesus having been crucified and resurrecting himself despite being a Jerusalem resident
@ Are unaware of many of the New Testament books written by the apostles? If not maybe you should be putting this info out here?
Hi most of the BT testament books are written by Paul who never met Jesus. And the other books contain few if any miracles. Much of the ‘miracles’ only really appear in the gospels and Acts also written by an unknown author
Origen of Ignorance
of course you've left out the strong and straight forward arguments for Jesus being God and that is Jesus also being a man.
the man part of Jesus also has a voice and we all need to hear that. Jesus wasn't just some God figure who could do all kinds of miracles He emptied Himself of many powers to become a man. He was a real man and in that state He limited Himself.
Judas was also a real man, he wasn't just playing a role. we focus on the 30 pieces a silver, but Judas was much more interested in pushing Jesus out and forcing Him to take the throne of Israel and then kicking out the Romans. we all want to force Jesus out , but that isn't how it works. Jesus is interested in changing the man not the big miracle that causes collective salvation. this is why Jesus heals people because man is the highest creation and man gets the attention. that fact that Jesus heals man is more of a proof for Godship than some big miracle. man is dead in sin, Jesus wants to make dead men live.
as for Hell and everlasting torments go, when examining the words used we can see a type of poetic hyping for intensity. Gehenna was a dump that burned outside of Jerusalem. it was a very viable place seen by all. Jesus used that as a picture of Hell. well Gehenna isn't burning today but all the trash burned there was destroyed for ever. so Celsus is making words equal to cement with no ability to change. he has taken the flexibility of word use and restricted it. then he adds a Greek culture for proofs to that attack on Jesus. so the Bible is very open to Hell not being torture for ever, and man being so important that he gets the miracles and not a great audience. for this reason Jesus is still remembered by the people today because He touches all man in the heart individually. each man can feel Jesus healing their souls from sin. men choose to live a life without sin all on their own because they listened to the voice of Jesus
Clown
Origin the heretic clowned this guy.
It took 70 years for the Christians to try to rebut Celsus. Even after 70 years, the Christians were so threatened by his book, that the church told Origen to rebut it. And if Origen did "own" Celsus why did the Christians destroy all of Celsus' books? What else did Celsus say that Origen didn't address? Guess we'll never know
Celsus clearly an arrogant character who lacked of understanding about the order required to achive perfection. He wouldve been a great muslim.
Jesus didn't expect perfection.
I don’t he understands Christology
Doesn't the number 3 in world mythology always represent the same thing? Triumph over the season of death? Based on the sacred promise Mother Nature demonstrates to all who incarnate in her world. Winter is her season of death which lasts 3 months. And is always, always, always, followed by the season of life. Known as Spring. Which is also 3 months long. And is the season of rebirth and reconstitution and resurrection.
Also every month the moon dies for 3 days... and then is reborn anew as a sacred new moon. This is why dying and rising gods are entombed for 3 days... before they resurrect. This is why Hermes Trismegistus was known as... "The Thrice Great." As he was famous for triumphing over the season of death. Just like Jesus The Christ did... sometime later.
This is what the 3 Mithraic wise men represent. And this is all the Christian Trinity actually symbolizes. It isn't about the individual literary personas but rather the sacred underlying promise of the number 3. Which is what most parental deity religions are selling. Entrance into Studio 54... for only the best people. Which has long been a hugely profitable marketing concept. As the staggering material wealth of the Roman Catholic Empire demonstrates.💙