Check out the perspectives of these awesome Hollow Knight RUclipsrs! Rusty ruclips.net/video/FOHLP-wkHj0/видео.html Relyea ruclips.net/video/_urW59t1Dqw/видео.html Perpetual Noob ruclips.net/video/c8Pug70XJyg/видео.html
Imagine he's gone for like 30 minutes, the hunters are all anxious and stuff. They are guarding the dreamers, and waiting for him to show up, and when he finally does, he has abyss shriek, quick slash, strength, and a bunch of other stuff, and he just obliterates them.
14:07 Their shock at him having a nail art and being at watchers will never fail to amuse me. I like their new rules, but there’s something so funny about the speedrunner working in the shadows and all of a sudden popping with like two new abilities and a mask and shocking everyone.
As much as Rusty [I think it was him, may be wrong] wanted to separate the calls, I feel you'd lose out on a lot of the charm this little series has. Having the hunters talk through what they're doing adds a lot of personality as opposed to silent terrors camping a boss.
Potentially they could stay in call together but fire has the discord audio not coming into his headset? That way the video still has audio but neither side has each other's
I also don't think fire would be able to do it without the Intel. Cuz they did overinflate how well he was doing in their heads, constantly thinking he had stuff he didn't.
Having Fire hear their plans is incredibly fun. Since they have to either resort to mindgames or do something else. Fire working blindly wouldnt be as fun.
Hunters learning to communicate without giving away their plans/positions is a part of what makes the manhunt format work, IMO. The calls need to stay as-is, they just need to recognize that it's part of the learning curve
"He's probably already done" "He's probably playing Silksong by now" I mean they're not wrong, you probably could've been for all they knew at the time
You should definitely make it so the hunters can’t go into a boss fight multiple times as it creates way to many choke points later on and makes it nearly impossible
The 80 minute time limit helps a lot, I think the main problem of last time was you were essentially guaranteed to win. A limit adds suspense and stakes to it that the previous one was lacking.
The problem is when all the hunters sit in the room... what can the runner do? It just ends up becoming essentially impossible... and the hunters don't HUNT. They just sit at the boss... and win. By creating a time limit they ensure that he can't get mask shards and soul containers, limiting his options massively... and in turn making a near impossible challenge. They can just forgo hunting them the entire time, just wait on the boss they did here... and win.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 I think that problem spawned less from the time limit and more from the fact that he was straight up out of time. Given a little longer, he could've faked out Uumuu and made his way to the Beast's den (and then possibly bench warped), but because he literally had no time left, his only choice was to throw himself at Uumuu Also, keep in mind that he spent a very long time jumping between Soul Sanctum and Watcher Knights, which if he'd been able to deal with sooner, could've also (as they said) done things like get another mask or shade cloak, which would force them to change their positions
This felt like watching those really bad invaders in Dark Souls that stand by the biggest enemy in the area and take credit for it killing the person they invaded lol.
I was playing as a blue sentinel and had an invader who did that today stood beside the pus of man in high wall of lothric with a bunch of poison weapons. Fuck that guy
@@ciaranhayes3212 the pus of man is the hardest enemy in High Wall, but I remember on my first playthrough I was so scared of the blue fatty there but I found out later he’s really easy
i wish darksouls 3 wasnt infested with cheaters , i would play it to this day , my best moment of all time was killing 3 people in a single blow as they chased me and i charged up my big fire log wearing full onion armor.
This was super entertaining! I wonder if the runner would have more of a chance here if the hunters were blocked by boss doors as well. They could still enter the boss room ahead of time and wait, but they’d have to be strategic, because once the runner enters the boss room, the hunters are locked either in or out. They’d have to try and stay alive while in the boss room, knowing if they die, they won’t be able to get back into the boss room until the runner either dies or wins. This could prevent unwinnable situations where the hunters can infinitely respawn and make a boss fight impossible. It’d force them to be strategic/defensive in the boss room over just rushing the runner for body damage.
Personally I feel it's great that you're in the same call, and I'd almost like more interaction. Currently the hunters already have a huge advantage, and giving them a bigger advantage by allowing them a separate call not only turns things further to their favor, but it also makes watching the video less entertaining. But hey that's how I feel about it.
they can dreamgate to bosses in a flash, they have more access than you have at the start and they can guess where you need to go so i feel the current ruleset gives them enough
curious how it would make the video less entertaining. The speedrunner never spoke anyways, only using text at the bottom of the screen to communicate with the viewers. The 4 hunters on a separate call would be speaking to each other and that would be the audio that plays in video... since ya know... we don't really need to hear the speedrunner talking to themself. . yes, having them in separate calls would give a bit of an edge to the hunters (this videos whole purpose is to set a challenge for the speedrunner). But I believe that edge balances out by either adding a respawn timer to the hunters, not allowing hunters into boss arenas, or somehow allowing bosses to target hunters as well.
But that problem is very hard to fix, if you barred boss fights somehow to make it easier on fireborn, it becomes way to hard for the hunters, and that'd be for any speedrunner, not just fireborn
@@lair9792 Why are you just spamming this exact same thing? Limiting the number of people able to go into the boss arenas would make it so progress isn't literally impossible when they all bench up in the same spot. The Uumuu fight was absolutely unfair, and the only real solution would be to limit the amount of hunter that can be in the boss rooms. You constantly repeating "it'd be too easy then" doesn't align with how ridiculous their grouping up on him was. Would've been even worse had he reached the Hollow Knight
@@heckingbamboozled8097 I used the same argument in different comment threads. It wasn't supposed to be spam, my apologies. It seems you have misunderstood what I meant. I never claimed the Uumuu fight wasn't unfair. It was very unfair. However, for a run where the runner can easily avoid everyone for 95% of it, what are the hunters to do? Blindly wander and hope to stumble upon someone? Especially when fireborn can listen in and easily take a route to avoid everyone. My argument isn't "don't limit boss fights," it's "if you are to limit boss fights, the only reliable way to find the runner, there has to be a counter measure for the hunters in place of the restrictions, because without a counter measure, it'd be incredibly easy for the runner to win.
@@lair9792 But he already has a timer, so it’s not like he can just avoid them forever. And the main goal here is content, and it’s not very entertaining to just watch fire get killed over and over by getting camped.
@@sunsetskye483 While I understand and agree with what you say, it also isn't entertaining to see a one sided decimation on the runners side. The hunters are put at a disadvantage by having fewer masks so the only realistic way to fight him is with more than one hunter. This puts them at a disadvantage because it groups them together and gives him more areas to run off too. He can hear all the communication as well. While camping mandatory boss might be scummy and not something I see a whole lot of fun in watching, it was the right decision. There's few areas they know he has to go to, and he can do them in whatever order he likes. It's not that I disagree with what you said, but I'm not so blind to see the advantages fireborn had for the most part.
Yeah, even if there was just a respawn timer or something it would help to ease the dogpiling and mean if you get stuck in a bottleneck there's still some chance.
this was pretty awesome. I like the separate discords idea for sure. I would add that a respawn timer for the hunters I think is important. Once the speedrunner gets to those later bosses the hunters were just spam spawning. There should be a reward in the form of reprieve for the speedrunner if he is able to take out any hunters.
Who else thinks relyea is underrated... I have got so many abilities like monarch wings, christal heart, mantis claw, etc bcz of him. Next can you please rank all the hollow knight bosses like rusty😁
I disagree with the separate discord thing. This came super close. If he couldn't hear their strats and try and plan around them, it would way too skewed in their favor.
Having a separate discord is good so they don't have to plan around not saying things they don't want him to know, there are other ways to tune the balance
@@themantsang A challenge is no longer a challenge if it is quite literally impossible to complete. This wasn't fair at all as soon as they just started respawning outside the boss rooms and constantly attacking him not allowing him to progress. There should have been rules set up to disallow that and actually make it interesting.
@@laharlkent Wouldn't really work, since the bosses all target Fire only. The Hunters would just have to make sure they don't run into the bosses' attacks by accident, otherwise it'd be more or less the same.
I feel like hunters should definitely be barred from boss fights when the doors are closed. It's just kind of annoying to watch oops- They can go in before it starts but once the gate is down they have to wait. OR! They take damage from bosses too, that could be more fun.
The reason the hunter's can't be damaged by the bosses is because they're playing on a completed save file whereas Fire is not. I also kind of disagree about them not being allowed in the room after the doors are closed but only because of just how good Fire is and how it would mean that he wouldn't even have trouble winning at that point.
@@trickytreyperfected1482 Tbh it's just annoying to watch the camping. Smth to prevent that specifically is what i'd like, but given the perimeters you mentioned that doesn't sound possible. Maybe a limit of how many hunters can be in the boss room at once, depending on the boss and the boss's difficulty..? So like for gruz mother, all 3 hunters can go in. But for something like the watcher knights, only one can go in at a time, but the other two can wait outside the door to go in, once the first hunter dies. Or, maybe a cooldown once they die inside of a boss room until they can enter again..?
@@squishish ooh, yeah I like that last idea. I think one rule that would be cool is if the hunters aren't allowed to bench meaning they have to travel to get back to the fight. If there was a way to disable contact damage for PvP specifically, that would also be good but I don't think that's possible. I do like the idea of limiting the number of hunters for certain fights but I can see where that might get too limiting.
@@trickytreyperfected1482 One of the last games, they did remove certain benches for the hunters! so i think that was a good call. :> It certainly seemed to help, but even then sometimes it was a bit much(they had dreamnail and would put it down nearby). It's certainly something to think about, and i think fire is trying to mend that because of the bench idea happening. :> I'm sure a good solution will happen eventually! So that's good. I need to catch up and see if anymore changes got made ^^
1. They should not be able to enter boss rooms after death inside 2.respawn at the second closest bench 3.hunters lose a random item when they die x amount of times
Ah yes, with those changes, it becomes practically, let's watch the speedrunner absolutely destroy everyone. Hell, with those restrictions, I could beat the hunters. Do you understand how skewed that is in favor of the speedrunner?
while i appreciate the new "announce when you get shit" rules from a balance perspective in the new videos, nothing can compare to this crazy where he disappears for a while and comes back with many more skills and all of the hunters are confused and surprised, or the play where he purposefully didnt dash to keep them guessing at where he went
@@nihili4196 if you nerfed them at bosses, you'd have to buff them everywhere else. It's basically impossible to find someone that knows where everyone is. He hears all the communication. If you nerfed them at bosses, I could probably beat them. This type of thing is a very hard thing to balance.
@@IVELLSoCOLD right, and you know that. You know how good I am at Hollow Knight? I must ask where you got this information. There's a little something I like to live by. The greatest video game players don't stream, the don't publish themselves online, and we'll never know who they are. I'm by no means claiming I'm a God at video games, but I don't think you see the bigger picture. I'm not looking at the views from a fireborn fan boy perspective, I'm looking at it from a realistic perspective. There are many things that make it way too easy for the runner, and there are also parts that make it way too easy on the hunters. This obviously wasn't something intended by the developers, so it also isn't something that is properly balanced either. If you'd like, I could go into lots of detail on how the manhunt wasn't properly balanced. That's of no fault to the people in the video of course, it's just a matter of fact. Those things take time to work the kinks out of. My personal complaint is when you assume you know my level of skill and that's just not possible. I could be the worst player on the earth, or I could be better than fireborn, but that's not the point. My point is you wouldn't know. With my prior comment, I used expressive language to make a point, I didn't mean to cause any misunderstandings. I do apologize, but I also dislike it when people make baseless claims based off of zero evidence.
This was uber fun to watch and I can't wait to explore more of your channel. That said, I think they should only get one life per boss attempt. Like, you start a boss fight and they can only enter that boss fight once per attempt. So you kill 2 and they can't rejoin the fight unless you have to attempt the boss again. I'm just trying to add clarity.
The ending was very underwhelming. Since fire was basically cornered and the hunters have no cooldown on death they can simply throw themselves at Fire, no need to fight well. It turned the thrilling time limit into a boring 10 minute stalemate with a default winner.
I want to see mossbag next time. He's not gonna hunt anyone, nor will he help anyone. He'll just sit in the call and read aloud all the archive's tablets.
Yeah instead of four knight hunters, other people play bosses instead. Their move sets are more limited so it's probably not as effective as the knight. However whenever a hunter dies he respawns as a randomly different boss. That'll keep fireb0rn on his toes.
I’d say it’s a little unfair that they can fight him during the boss. Maybe make it so only 2 people can be in the Boss at once. Then ur be harder for him but not nearly impossible
@@feelslikebatman6091 if you mean from the bossfights then that would take a while to sort out, because it would require them to make an entire new mod (atleast thats what I've heard) cuz with the current mod, the hunters use a completed save file, while the runner uses a brand new save file
Yea but then the strategy would just be for the speedrunner to sprint past everyone and just enter boss arena to trap the hunters out. Imo this whole problem fixes with respawn timers for the hunters. This way the speedrunner could engage the players outside the boss arena, get some kills, then use the respawn timers to complete the boss.
ok, i have an idea: so what if when the timer ran out of time you entered overtime, where the runner is now limited to this only life. This way, they could go on but the stakes would be very high. Just think it would pretty cool!
So the hunters go on a wild goose chase against him just to finish the video, or the hunters just sit at the same spot which makes the video boring at the end
Really, that ending was pretty boring at the end, I don't think it's really fair to have all of the hunters inside a tiny boss room at once. There should probably be a limit on how many can be inside a boss room at once, with the next one being able to enter when the next one dies with some rooms allowing two hunters. The timer was definitely a bit too short, since once they start camping an area it just becomes a boring slog. Either extending it a few minutes or having an over-time mechanic that would allow the runner to switch up their stratergy would probably help Also, don't have separate calls. The Runner planning around what the hunters say is entertaining, instead, have a seperate form of communication such as text, which fire won't be able to read, would probably be better if it's absolutely nessisary. That would allow for secret planning while still keeping the fun from the game.
It'd become way too easy for the speedrunner and that's not just fireborn either. With the way it's set up, if there was a bar to the boss fight, it'd become very difficult for the hunters
Ngl it's not fun to watch them just throw themselves at him because there's no skill involved at all. Not only is Fire at a massive disadvantage (no upgrades, while their only drawback is a measly 3 health); but they have infinite spawns and stuff. I like watching fire because his point of view shows skill, and talent. The others? I'd rather not waste 40 minutes of my life on a suicide montage. Gate these guys out of boss fights or one at a time. Otherwise this is just trite.
@@corinabanu7556 I saw another comment basically saying that boss gates should block the hunters, so they can enter the fight ahead of time but if they die in the fight they can’t come back in, which sounds like a great idea to me, to cut out the entire “dude can’t win a boss fight and they can just camp one of them to guarantee the win”
This is literally a double boss fight situation. Players fighting a player who's basically a powerful boss as this player tries to kill a boss of their own
I feel like there should be a gentlemen’s agreement that only one hunter can fight fire whilst he’s doing a boss, it just seems too difficult and overwhelming otherwise
Yeah, with the current rules, it seems like the hunter's optimal strategy should just be to pick an unavoidable boss and camp there, because 4 v 1 with the added boss is pretty much unstoppable.
I feel like this would actually work really well to make it more fair. This one was utterly unfair due to the ability to just respawn in chokeholds and right next to boss fights, with no penalty for deaths.
Maybe it’ll be fun to give you 60 min, BUT, every time you reach a milestone (beating a boss, getting a spell etc) you get 5 extra minutes or something. This could make for some very cool close plays later in the run!!!
Interesting idea since it allows fire to explore and prep more while punishing the hunters for sitting at a boss the entire time. I think the starting time or incremental increase should be a little smaller though. Keep in mind fire was pretty close to winning this with a fixed 80 minutes. Would the hunters know when the timer increases though
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Check out the perspectives of these awesome Hollow Knight RUclipsrs!
Rusty ruclips.net/video/FOHLP-wkHj0/видео.html
Relyea ruclips.net/video/_urW59t1Dqw/видео.html
Perpetual Noob ruclips.net/video/c8Pug70XJyg/видео.html
Yes
Wait how is this 17 hours ago? The video came out 2 minutes ago. I mean you might’ve private and un private but still.
You is cool
You forgot cranky
@@xXWolf24Xx plot twist: he doesn't exist
"The bastard has probably already completed silksong" lmao
man’s gonna speedrun silksong before it came out
Theory, Fire is helping to playtest the game but he cannot tell us... conclusion, he did indeed complete Silksong
@@DokuDoki he probably already knows every skip and glitch before it's even released
lol xD
@@DokuDoki He’s gonna be the reason there are no skips or glitches if that’s the case.
Imagine he's gone for like 30 minutes, the hunters are all anxious and stuff. They are guarding the dreamers, and waiting for him to show up, and when he finally does, he has abyss shriek, quick slash, strength, and a bunch of other stuff, and he just obliterates them.
I really hope he does this in like april fool's while just hiding at crossroads using a cheat engine
strenght charm should do double damage in multiplayer
He beats NKG just to flex.
the strength also has to be unbreakable.
@@Rotem_S lmao
"His next stop is totally dream nail"
Fire: "I'm already 4 parallel universes ahead of you."
I really like how scared they sounded when Fire was at watcher knights with a nail art,
"He has a nail art?!" 14:00
the best moment of the whole thing tbh lol
After he died, "Don't thank me, thank Watcher Knights."
Basically the reaction of the villain when the main character pulls out his secret technique
"what if fire got dash but he was conscious of using dash while fighting you, so he just didn't use it?"
"that would be next level"
lmao
came here to say this, they got trolled.
"He's probably going for lantern"
Fireborn running through a dark area blind: "lantern? I don't require such a crutch."
"Bastard's probably playing silk song by now!"
-Rusty. 2021
That fucking killed me lmfao
@@kelismaincharacter4925 same
Timestamp anyone?
@hornet is spider Thanks. Returned to watching this after some time, so I didn't remember it was in the beginning.
This comment aged well
As always, this is much fun learning new stuff with routes.
Yes I'm going to learn how to speedrun good and then come for fire's spot
everytime I see you on the screen approaching fireborn, I get menacing vibes
and totally expect fire to easily die, but he got better
I watched your Stream awhile ago
17:12 when he opened that shortcut I was flabbergasted
You were the only one who did anything to kill him. Others hit him, but otherwise just said “nice” when you landed the final blows.
14:07 Their shock at him having a nail art and being at watchers will never fail to amuse me. I like their new rules, but there’s something so funny about the speedrunner working in the shadows and all of a sudden popping with like two new abilities and a mask and shocking everyone.
Templar: Soul Sanctum
Relyea: Already there. *rising menacingly from the elevator*
25:05 (for those who need it)
*Darth vader music plays in*
(Menacing)
Yeh I loved this moment.
Fire: tries to go right. Nope there’s a guy there.
Heads left.
Elevator rises.
“Hello there”
As much as Rusty [I think it was him, may be wrong] wanted to separate the calls, I feel you'd lose out on a lot of the charm this little series has. Having the hunters talk through what they're doing adds a lot of personality as opposed to silent terrors camping a boss.
Potentially they could stay in call together but fire has the discord audio not coming into his headset? That way the video still has audio but neither side has each other's
I also don't think fire would be able to do it without the Intel. Cuz they did overinflate how well he was doing in their heads, constantly thinking he had stuff he didn't.
Having Fire hear their plans is incredibly fun. Since they have to either resort to mindgames or do something else. Fire working blindly wouldnt be as fun.
Yeah especially since as soon as 1 spots him another heads there and as soon as 2 appear it looks like any boss becomes impossible
Hunters learning to communicate without giving away their plans/positions is a part of what makes the manhunt format work, IMO. The calls need to stay as-is, they just need to recognize that it's part of the learning curve
this man really went without the lantern. through DEEPNEST
He knows the place like the back of his hand at this point
He's fireborn, what do you expect
dude probably go through Path of pain Blind folded.
@@revivrevalchn3503 I refuse to believe he hasn't
@@revivrevalchn3503 bro the path of pain to him is *a path to the grocery store*
I like how this entire video was just
“Hey guys, let’s guard [insert spell here]”
*two minutes later*
“Hey guys, he’s got [insert ability here]”
Also: agh dang it he got me
good thing i realized the video was trash a min 30 in
@@kane2440it's not
bruh wat
@@SlothyYT preety much is tho
This is such a slick idea, it makes the wait for Silksong a little easier
Hello
What are you doing here....
hello
Early pass right here sonny.
Sad thing dolan is a console war veteran😔 he only likes pc
Hunters: "that's so dirty!"
Also Hunters: boss camping
But man, fire. You're an absolute god. Congrats on the successful monarch wings skip!
It's surprising that even with this, the latter manhunts are much more impressive.
Also 1 k likes and no replies? Damn.
Absolute MVP moment when fire sneaks past rusty right as rusty talks about how fire might sneak past him to get dash
Rusty: “his next stop is dream nail”
Fireb0rn: *i am 4 parallel universe ahead of you*
I've never seen someone have so much control over their character before holy shit this was so fun to watch
Fr
Yeah, the 16 seconds beat down of Hornet left me speechless
"He's probably already done"
"He's probably playing Silksong by now"
I mean they're not wrong, you probably could've been for all they knew at the time
Timestamp? I think I missed it
@@zerayah2474 1:38
“What if Fire had dash and just didn’t use during fights so we didn’t know”
“That would be AMAZING.”
Fire: 😉
I've had Hollow Knight for a week and all the tricks Fire does to skip through the game just boggles my mind!
666 like here
I'm 777 like nice
I was literally hearing this while reading this comment
Whole video was just fire making big brain plays
You should definitely make it so the hunters can’t go into a boss fight multiple times as it creates way to many choke points later on and makes it nearly impossible
That was the fun part. So hilarious to watch when he had to struggle to circumvent their interference. Though maybe camping Uumuu is too unfair.
tbh he should have ability to just 1 tap them or hit them once and stun them for 10 sec but he cant damage them in that time
The 80 minute time limit helps a lot, I think the main problem of last time was you were essentially guaranteed to win. A limit adds suspense and stakes to it that the previous one was lacking.
Personally I think it should be an amount of times they have to kill him, not a time limit.
I think the 80 minutes is short though. 120 minutes probably more reasonable.
@@Abyss10n well he did beat the game in circa 30 minures
The problem is when all the hunters sit in the room... what can the runner do? It just ends up becoming essentially impossible... and the hunters don't HUNT. They just sit at the boss... and win. By creating a time limit they ensure that he can't get mask shards and soul containers, limiting his options massively... and in turn making a near impossible challenge.
They can just forgo hunting them the entire time, just wait on the boss they did here... and win.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 I think that problem spawned less from the time limit and more from the fact that he was straight up out of time. Given a little longer, he could've faked out Uumuu and made his way to the Beast's den (and then possibly bench warped), but because he literally had no time left, his only choice was to throw himself at Uumuu
Also, keep in mind that he spent a very long time jumping between Soul Sanctum and Watcher Knights, which if he'd been able to deal with sooner, could've also (as they said) done things like get another mask or shade cloak, which would force them to change their positions
This felt like watching those really bad invaders in Dark Souls that stand by the biggest enemy in the area and take credit for it killing the person they invaded lol.
I was playing as a blue sentinel and had an invader who did that today stood beside the pus of man in high wall of lothric with a bunch of poison weapons. Fuck that guy
I mean, as long as you dont suck at the game like a casual it shouldn't be difficult to deal with
@@ciaranhayes3212 the pus of man is the hardest enemy in High Wall, but I remember on my first playthrough I was so scared of the blue fatty there but I found out later he’s really easy
Me with swinging axes in sens
i wish darksouls 3 wasnt infested with cheaters , i would play it to this day , my best moment of all time was killing 3 people in a single blow as they chased me and i charged up my big fire log wearing full onion armor.
Hunters: "This is a pretty good wall we set up here"
Also Hunters: *camping on one of the bosses who blocks off whole portions of the arena*
These runs will never not be fun
Neither to watch them
True
Facts
Agreed
Agreed
Its funny how the hunters predict fires moves AFTER he makes them
It would be funny to go for an absolute radiance ending while everyone else is trying to find you on the map
The greatest achievement here is that fireb0rn is inventing new types of content and solving the drought while we wait for Silksong. Good job.
for 2 years now
This was super entertaining!
I wonder if the runner would have more of a chance here if the hunters were blocked by boss doors as well. They could still enter the boss room ahead of time and wait, but they’d have to be strategic, because once the runner enters the boss room, the hunters are locked either in or out. They’d have to try and stay alive while in the boss room, knowing if they die, they won’t be able to get back into the boss room until the runner either dies or wins. This could prevent unwinnable situations where the hunters can infinitely respawn and make a boss fight impossible. It’d force them to be strategic/defensive in the boss room over just rushing the runner for body damage.
Diane H. Yeah I think this would be a little more fair
This!! I really think this would deal with the bottleneck problem but still let them strategize
This would be a huge improvement and I think is necessary if they want to separate the runner/hunter comms next time.
Dream Gate
@@sambews5679 what about it? Just need all the hunters to agree to the rule, not like they don't all know each other
The amount of control this guy has over his character in hollow knight is amazing. I wish I was this good at hollow knight
The fact that fire stays almost silent the whole time terrifies me
*Concentration*
"That's a lot of milk!"
@@nhn05 oh no pls no
@@nhn05 **points gun** Don't you dare
i dont understand
Personally I feel it's great that you're in the same call, and I'd almost like more interaction. Currently the hunters already have a huge advantage, and giving them a bigger advantage by allowing them a separate call not only turns things further to their favor, but it also makes watching the video less entertaining. But hey that's how I feel about it.
Agreed no need to nerf fire, in fact they should have nerfs
they can dreamgate to bosses in a flash, they have more access than you have at the start and they can guess where you need to go so i feel the current ruleset gives them enough
But that's forgetting how long he was able to evade them though. And the time he has when he's free and alone are a bit boring too.
curious how it would make the video less entertaining. The speedrunner never spoke anyways, only using text at the bottom of the screen to communicate with the viewers. The 4 hunters on a separate call would be speaking to each other and that would be the audio that plays in video... since ya know... we don't really need to hear the speedrunner talking to themself.
.
yes, having them in separate calls would give a bit of an edge to the hunters (this videos whole purpose is to set a challenge for the speedrunner). But I believe that edge balances out by either adding a respawn timer to the hunters, not allowing hunters into boss arenas, or somehow allowing bosses to target hunters as well.
it's frustrating to watch the hunters gang up on him, basically camp at one mandatory boss, and the run is dead...
But that problem is very hard to fix, if you barred boss fights somehow to make it easier on fireborn, it becomes way to hard for the hunters, and that'd be for any speedrunner, not just fireborn
@@lair9792 Why are you just spamming this exact same thing? Limiting the number of people able to go into the boss arenas would make it so progress isn't literally impossible when they all bench up in the same spot. The Uumuu fight was absolutely unfair, and the only real solution would be to limit the amount of hunter that can be in the boss rooms. You constantly repeating "it'd be too easy then" doesn't align with how ridiculous their grouping up on him was. Would've been even worse had he reached the Hollow Knight
@@heckingbamboozled8097 I used the same argument in different comment threads. It wasn't supposed to be spam, my apologies. It seems you have misunderstood what I meant. I never claimed the Uumuu fight wasn't unfair. It was very unfair. However, for a run where the runner can easily avoid everyone for 95% of it, what are the hunters to do? Blindly wander and hope to stumble upon someone? Especially when fireborn can listen in and easily take a route to avoid everyone. My argument isn't "don't limit boss fights," it's "if you are to limit boss fights, the only reliable way to find the runner, there has to be a counter measure for the hunters in place of the restrictions, because without a counter measure, it'd be incredibly easy for the runner to win.
@@lair9792 But he already has a timer, so it’s not like he can just avoid them forever. And the main goal here is content, and it’s not very entertaining to just watch fire get killed over and over by getting camped.
@@sunsetskye483 While I understand and agree with what you say, it also isn't entertaining to see a one sided decimation on the runners side. The hunters are put at a disadvantage by having fewer masks so the only realistic way to fight him is with more than one hunter. This puts them at a disadvantage because it groups them together and gives him more areas to run off too. He can hear all the communication as well. While camping mandatory boss might be scummy and not something I see a whole lot of fun in watching, it was the right decision. There's few areas they know he has to go to, and he can do them in whatever order he likes. It's not that I disagree with what you said, but I'm not so blind to see the advantages fireborn had for the most part.
You should equip Thorns of Agony, they'll never kno what hit them
The thorns
Duh
New problem, new suggestion. Hopefully fire reads this.
@@HalfaWaffle601 shhhh they'll never know
@@HalfaWaffle601 I mean, given the multiplayer mod's tendency to NOT show things...they might actually never know
Especially if he’s trying to avoid them in greenpath after Hornet
I think there should be a penalty for when a hunter dies, since if they catch you in a choke point, they can just respawn pile on you without effort
yeah it makes it really unfair
Yeah, even if there was just a respawn timer or something it would help to ease the dogpiling and mean if you get stuck in a bottleneck there's still some chance.
@Georgian Canis Not entirely sure but there could be some restrictions with how the mod works :p
guys, the ideia is to make this really hard, LIKE REALLY HARD. Any penalty that benefits fireb0rn will make this challenge easier.
@@rafaelmoraes1288 because fighting 4 players while fighting umuu with a weak nail and 2/3 spells is fair.
this was pretty awesome. I like the separate discords idea for sure. I would add that a respawn timer for the hunters I think is important. Once the speedrunner gets to those later bosses the hunters were just spam spawning. There should be a reward in the form of reprieve for the speedrunner if he is able to take out any hunters.
This was so much fun. Looking forward to new multiplayer games
It was fun to watch it too
i have been a fan of your work for ages relyea
@@fourcornet1308 same
This'll be fun in silksong
Who else thinks relyea is underrated... I have got so many abilities like monarch wings, christal heart, mantis claw, etc bcz of him. Next can you please rank all the hollow knight bosses like rusty😁
I disagree with the separate discord thing. This came super close. If he couldn't hear their strats and try and plan around them, it would way too skewed in their favor.
Yeah, agreed.
It's also not like they couldn't use it to their advantage either, by throwing out false info every now and again to try bait him.
And the fact that the 3 dreamers are a necessity they can just camp it, umu wasn kinda impossible
FACTS
Having a separate discord is good so they don't have to plan around not saying things they don't want him to know, there are other ways to tune the balance
@@ohno5559 nah it takes too much of the fun out of it
Ah man, it was fun to watch until I realised they can just enter the boss room when they want. 4+boss v 1 isn’t that fun to watch. :L
That's the point of a challenge >.>
Those are my favorite parts.
@@themantsang A challenge is no longer a challenge if it is quite literally impossible to complete. This wasn't fair at all as soon as they just started respawning outside the boss rooms and constantly attacking him not allowing him to progress. There should have been rules set up to disallow that and actually make it interesting.
@@jpowel Or they take boss damage also, if they had to avoid everything he did it would make it fairer
@@laharlkent Wouldn't really work, since the bosses all target Fire only. The Hunters would just have to make sure they don't run into the bosses' attacks by accident, otherwise it'd be more or less the same.
"He absolutely has to do the dreamers"
*1 pantheon of hallownest later*
"Oh."
@Family Shands the godhome any% nmg wr is 2hr 44m and 45s so it won’t work
@@Verisity but in some of the other runs they didn’t have a time limit, maybe have a run dedicated to godholm, and he does normal ending instead.
@Family Shands flower isn't needed for godhome ending, it just alters the result.
Monarch wings skip was insane
The amount of patience you have shocks me. I was getting mad just watching the uumuu fight and you had to live trough that. Props gg
It’s not fair the hunters could just keep respawning outside the boss rooms, it should be one and done
I mean yeah the uumuu thing was ridiculous
@@mossytime349 even the soul master fight felt unfair. and the second attempt at watcher knights was ridiculous. PLUS camping the bench
@@aidenwhiting5131 Maybe there's a highlight on which sector he's in but they have to respawn at Dirtmouth
I feel like the only way to balance this is to allow the Hunter to be hit by the bosses, that way everyone is multitasking, not just fireb0rn
@@witherwolf3316 yes agreed
The way he handled some of these situations was so impressive. I was so surprised when he almost beat the watcher knights.
Hunters: Fire's probably here
Fire: *three galaxy brains ahead of them*
I feel like hunters should definitely be barred from boss fights when the doors are closed. It's just kind of annoying to watch oops- They can go in before it starts but once the gate is down they have to wait. OR! They take damage from bosses too, that could be more fun.
The reason the hunter's can't be damaged by the bosses is because they're playing on a completed save file whereas Fire is not. I also kind of disagree about them not being allowed in the room after the doors are closed but only because of just how good Fire is and how it would mean that he wouldn't even have trouble winning at that point.
@@trickytreyperfected1482 Tbh it's just annoying to watch the camping. Smth to prevent that specifically is what i'd like, but given the perimeters you mentioned that doesn't sound possible. Maybe a limit of how many hunters can be in the boss room at once, depending on the boss and the boss's difficulty..? So like for gruz mother, all 3 hunters can go in. But for something like the watcher knights, only one can go in at a time, but the other two can wait outside the door to go in, once the first hunter dies. Or, maybe a cooldown once they die inside of a boss room until they can enter again..?
@@squishish ooh, yeah I like that last idea. I think one rule that would be cool is if the hunters aren't allowed to bench meaning they have to travel to get back to the fight. If there was a way to disable contact damage for PvP specifically, that would also be good but I don't think that's possible. I do like the idea of limiting the number of hunters for certain fights but I can see where that might get too limiting.
@@trickytreyperfected1482 One of the last games, they did remove certain benches for the hunters! so i think that was a good call. :> It certainly seemed to help, but even then sometimes it was a bit much(they had dreamnail and would put it down nearby). It's certainly something to think about, and i think fire is trying to mend that because of the bench idea happening. :> I'm sure a good solution will happen eventually! So that's good. I need to catch up and see if anymore changes got made ^^
It'd be better if the hunters weren't allowed to use benches.
1. They should not be able to enter boss rooms after death inside
2.respawn at the second closest bench
3.hunters lose a random item when they die x amount of times
Ah yes, with those changes, it becomes practically, let's watch the speedrunner absolutely destroy everyone. Hell, with those restrictions, I could beat the hunters. Do you understand how skewed that is in favor of the speedrunner?
@@lair9792 I would lose 3 and 2 and make 1 after 3 to 5 deaths
@@gigachad7729 that could work
@@lair9792 it would give the hunters a chance while not completely dooming the speed runner during important bosses
I like the first rule but not the other two
36:22 Bro that looked like a powerful anime entrance, gave me goose bumps lol. That looked sooooo cool to me bro.
while i appreciate the new "announce when you get shit" rules from a balance perspective in the new videos, nothing can compare to this crazy where he disappears for a while and comes back with many more skills and all of the hunters are confused and surprised, or the play where he purposefully didnt dash to keep them guessing at where he went
I like to think that Quirrel was like
"What is happening??" Watching 5 vessels fight
i love how the hunters keep calling your next move right after you finished doing whatever they thought you were heading for
Just so you know you blew my mind when you opened the shortcut between Cornifer/the bench and the soul sanctum
Yeah i wish i had known
@Bee my reaction exactly lol
Same here and I thought I knew everything about this game at that point lol
saaaameee!
Wait, people do that boss without that shortcut? Jesus
“We need to have separate discord calls next time.”
Proceeds to curb stomp him at the end...
Nah dawg I think him having the call makes it fair.
absolutely if they have all the communication and they dont take dmg from bosses thatd be too op
I would argue that they need a bit of a nerf. Last boss part was ridiculous.
@@nihili4196 if you nerfed them at bosses, you'd have to buff them everywhere else. It's basically impossible to find someone that knows where everyone is. He hears all the communication. If you nerfed them at bosses, I could probably beat them. This type of thing is a very hard thing to balance.
@@lair9792 no you wouldn’t
@@IVELLSoCOLD right, and you know that. You know how good I am at Hollow Knight? I must ask where you got this information. There's a little something I like to live by. The greatest video game players don't stream, the don't publish themselves online, and we'll never know who they are. I'm by no means claiming I'm a God at video games, but I don't think you see the bigger picture. I'm not looking at the views from a fireborn fan boy perspective, I'm looking at it from a realistic perspective. There are many things that make it way too easy for the runner, and there are also parts that make it way too easy on the hunters. This obviously wasn't something intended by the developers, so it also isn't something that is properly balanced either. If you'd like, I could go into lots of detail on how the manhunt wasn't properly balanced. That's of no fault to the people in the video of course, it's just a matter of fact. Those things take time to work the kinks out of. My personal complaint is when you assume you know my level of skill and that's just not possible. I could be the worst player on the earth, or I could be better than fireborn, but that's not the point. My point is you wouldn't know. With my prior comment, I used expressive language to make a point, I didn't mean to cause any misunderstandings. I do apologize, but I also dislike it when people make baseless claims based off of zero evidence.
The fact that even with 4 hunters you still got so far is a testament to your skill
I like that you put text to explain what you're doing and why you're doing it at certain points, it really helps to understand what's going on :)
Another fun time. Truly. 😃
I can't wait for Episode 3. I've taken so many notes, you'll never get past Hornet 1! Muahaha! 😂
Plot twist: noob kills Hornet 1 before fire gets there :D
@@pclouds they are on different save files so it wouldn’t work
This was uber fun to watch and I can't wait to explore more of your channel. That said, I think they should only get one life per boss attempt. Like, you start a boss fight and they can only enter that boss fight once per attempt. So you kill 2 and they can't rejoin the fight unless you have to attempt the boss again. I'm just trying to add clarity.
I love how the entire time you are just way ahead of were they think you are
where*
The ending was very underwhelming. Since fire was basically cornered and the hunters have no cooldown on death they can simply throw themselves at Fire, no need to fight well. It turned the thrilling time limit into a boring 10 minute stalemate with a default winner.
Agreed
A cooldown on death for the hunters would make it so much better
My thoughts exactly
I think if the hunters could only respawn from like dirtmouth could work.
Cd on hunter would be a great thing, he should have defenitly bait them to an other dreamer to not confirm this was the last one
29:12 most heart wrenching moment of the video
i thought you said heartwarming 😭😭
the Rusty Pogo, my favorite skip.
Indeed
Haven't done one of those in a while. Guess you could say I'm rusty
Yes yes, everyone heard about the rusty pogo skip. It is saving like... 2 seconds and one mask
@@Marchclouds you are grounded
1:37 "He's probably already paying silksong"
@@purpwolf5337 i still remember when rusty made hollow knight content
I want to see mossbag next time. He's not gonna hunt anyone, nor will he help anyone. He'll just sit in the call and read aloud all the archive's tablets.
It's so hard to watch for beginners like me who spent 10 hours on the game just for a dash.
its with every game, not only hollow knight, just watch speedrun of any video game you like and you will feel sad
You should take your time on your first file though
@@jasmijn-1419 please i have like 36 hours on my game and 4 of them have been spent on those knights lmao
@@shuckle9529 tbh the minecraft speedrun is awesome to watch without feeling sad, except for the one-cycle. And magma ravine portals.
Heh it took me 80 hours to get the true ending
Yeah, the hunters being able to enter the boss arenas was definitely OP.
This was so interesting but its really a bummer that they can just respawn and make progress basically imposible... kinda killed it on the end..
Longer respawn is necessary for this kinda run.
I'm imagine this is gonna escilate to Speedrunner vs Pure Vessel Hunter
speedrunner vs 4 primal aspids
@@wilsonsiregar4737 won't make it past dirtmouth
Speedrunner vs 4 absolute radiances
@@kingcyrusrodan6772 id take that over the aspids lowkey
Yeah instead of four knight hunters, other people play bosses instead. Their move sets are more limited so it's probably not as effective as the knight. However whenever a hunter dies he respawns as a randomly different boss. That'll keep fireb0rn on his toes.
This is like watching an RTS with commentary and a speedrun at the same time. Awesome!
This is super fun to watch! Love to see more XD
I’d say it’s a little unfair that they can fight him during the boss. Maybe make it so only 2 people can be in the Boss at once. Then ur be harder for him but not nearly impossible
just let them take damage and it would be fine
@@feelslikebatman6091 if you mean from the bossfights then that would take a while to sort out, because it would require them to make an entire new mod (atleast thats what I've heard) cuz with the current mod, the hunters use a completed save file, while the runner uses a brand new save file
@@kozolith2121 thanks for the info
Yea but then the strategy would just be for the speedrunner to sprint past everyone and just enter boss arena to trap the hunters out. Imo this whole problem fixes with respawn timers for the hunters. This way the speedrunner could engage the players outside the boss arena, get some kills, then use the respawn timers to complete the boss.
Hunters: "He's probably farming Geo for Lantern."
God Gamer: "What's a Lantern?"
ok, i have an idea: so what if when the timer ran out of time you entered overtime, where the runner is now limited to this only life. This way, they could go on but the stakes would be very high. Just think it would pretty cool!
There is so much potential to improve this
I feel like it wouldn't change much since the in this run he lost by getting stuck at a bottleneck
I 3rd this.
So the hunters go on a wild goose chase against him just to finish the video, or the hunters just sit at the same spot which makes the video boring at the end
I 4th this
"He's probably hunting for mask shards, he's gonna be a bear next time we see him"
*Guess who still has only five masks?*
And has 2/3 dreamers, decending dark and shade soul
Hearing them talking about silksong three years ago shows how long we have been waiting.
@@noahthecrazy1632 fr
Actually, it was impossible for you to win because in order to truly beat the game you must speak to elderbug
Is that really true? 0-o
@@heyo8228 Yes
@@heyo8228 no
"I HAVE THE HIGH GROUND NOW FIRE!"
*you underestimate my power*
Lmfao
Man, he really went through deepnest without a lantern, Wayward Compass or a map
Really, that ending was pretty boring at the end, I don't think it's really fair to have all of the hunters inside a tiny boss room at once. There should probably be a limit on how many can be inside a boss room at once, with the next one being able to enter when the next one dies with some rooms allowing two hunters. The timer was definitely a bit too short, since once they start camping an area it just becomes a boring slog. Either extending it a few minutes or having an over-time mechanic that would allow the runner to switch up their stratergy would probably help
Also, don't have separate calls. The Runner planning around what the hunters say is entertaining, instead, have a seperate form of communication such as text, which fire won't be able to read, would probably be better if it's absolutely nessisary. That would allow for secret planning while still keeping the fun from the game.
“I’m very surprised that Blue Lake and Mothwing Clock were undefended.” *The flex is strong with this one*
1:37 Hearing the joke about Fire "already playing Silksong" and then seeing this video is 3 years old is PAINFUL.
Separate discord calls go against what make manhunts so good, don't do that.
High key agree
Same. The confused commentary makes it way better.
Ye
Very true, I couldn't agree more
I disagree, Hollow knight is different, and I find this funnier.
This made me smile so much. It was so funny when he was already in the basin and they were like "does he have dash yet?"
Watching this guy take on watcher knights so artfully was just stunning, even if he died
blocking the hunters from entering mid bossfight is a must.
It'd become way too easy for the speedrunner and that's not just fireborn either. With the way it's set up, if there was a bar to the boss fight, it'd become very difficult for the hunters
@@lair9792 then maybe limit how many hunters can enter the boss fight.
There needs to be some anti camping rule or other restriction to hunters so this isn't so stacked against the player.
Ngl it's not fun to watch them just throw themselves at him because there's no skill involved at all. Not only is Fire at a massive disadvantage (no upgrades, while their only drawback is a measly 3 health); but they have infinite spawns and stuff.
I like watching fire because his point of view shows skill, and talent. The others? I'd rather not waste 40 minutes of my life on a suicide montage.
Gate these guys out of boss fights or one at a time. Otherwise this is just trite.
@@corinabanu7556 I saw another comment basically saying that boss gates should block the hunters, so they can enter the fight ahead of time but if they die in the fight they can’t come back in, which sounds like a great idea to me, to cut out the entire “dude can’t win a boss fight and they can just camp one of them to guarantee the win”
Send em to a random bench when they die lol
I think whenever they die they should be sent back to the bench at Dirtmouth or something like that
@@randomnpc7773 heck yes. Some kind of restriction
That was so intense! The areas where he went without the lantern were insane. I love how many times they were like, he's collecting mask shards!
This is literally a double boss fight situation. Players fighting a player who's basically a powerful boss as this player tries to kill a boss of their own
I feel like there should be a gentlemen’s agreement that only one hunter can fight fire whilst he’s doing a boss, it just seems too difficult and overwhelming otherwise
Yeah 4 + boss Vs 1 is Ridiculous. Especially against Umuu with that already limits where you can go with its lightning.
@@splinter360 Maybe some bosses have more hunters per boss so it’s more difficult for easier bosses.
Yeah, with the current rules, it seems like the hunter's optimal strategy should just be to pick an unavoidable boss and camp there, because 4 v 1 with the added boss is pretty much unstoppable.
@@leperaffinity21 Optimal strat seems to be just camping WK and Uumuu followed by camping THK.
i agree
29:11 I felt bad for the little guy, he fully expected he'd be freed
Hollow Knight - Speedrunner with a Gun vs. 4 Hunters
that is gonna be pure massacre
@@kiritolightning YES, AND ITS PERFECT
@@pokegirl1799 e
there should definitely be a rule that limits camping
Yeah. Camping is so annoying it makes me wanna rip my eyes out It annoys me that much
“B*stards probably playing silksong by now”
Most underrated joke of the century
29:10 I let out an audible “Aww” when he didn’t release the grub despite it being in his path
Try it again but this time have one of them secretly work for you and mislead the others
nice idea tbh
yea
Cute idea I love it
I feel like this would actually work really well to make it more fair. This one was utterly unfair due to the ability to just respawn in chokeholds and right next to boss fights, with no penalty for deaths.
you should do this again but one of the hunters is secretly helping you and the others are trying to find out who it is
The fact he didn't talk to elderbug automatically cancels the run
I'm new to this. Why would that cancel the run? 😅
@@leitogaitan he gets sad when you walk by him :( (this is a joke comment)
@@yaboimase2100 no it's not a joke, making elderbug sad is illegal :(
he also walked right past a grub without freeing it >:(
@@dodolulupepe true
😭
Maybe it’ll be fun to give you 60 min, BUT, every time you reach a milestone (beating a boss, getting a spell etc) you get 5 extra minutes or something. This could make for some very cool close plays later in the run!!!
Interesting idea since it allows fire to explore and prep more while punishing the hunters for sitting at a boss the entire time. I think the starting time or incremental increase should be a little smaller though. Keep in mind fire was pretty close to winning this with a fixed 80 minutes.
Would the hunters know when the timer increases though
@@stormetro6046 probably nto
10:55 I didn't believe it at first, but it's awesome that that's exactly what you did!
This would’ve been 50 times better if the mod synchronised the enemies