The J.C. Penney's Effect - Designing "Fair" vs "Feels Good" Systems - Extra Credits
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- Опубликовано: 20 июл 2024
- Just because a game design solution is objectively better for the player, doesn't mean it will be perceived as the better choice. Sometimes we make design decisions based on human nature and psychology rather than efficiency.
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(Original air date: May 15, 2013)
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That JC Penny thing broke my heart.
The thing that also really disturbs me is the "It doesnt matter that its right, it just doesnt feel right". Looking at politics today....
Ikr
a company tried to do the right and honest thing, and then everything went to hell for them. :(
People wanted discounts more than lower prices for some reason. I mean, it was JC Penney's fault for misreading the audience, but people like making things complicated. And so do...everybody.
+World of Gaming In no way is it JCPenny's fault. They never misread the consumers, they trusted them. Yet since no other company did that and kept lying, people felt like the "sales" were better. If it's anybody's fault its the other companies who started this cycle of lying to consumers.
+
Seeing as it's three years later and I've never heard of Firefall, I can guess what happened.
It's a sad, sad world, isn't it?
I looked it up, people really seemed to love this game.
But, that was two and a half years ago. From what I can tell, there was some kind of shift in management, and when it was released on steam, it came with a patch that completely decimated the game and left it a hollow shell of its former self. Almost every review says that Firefall was an amazing game during the beta, but now it's a buggy, generic mess that's missing much of the content it used to have... a sad world indeed.
Damn, because seeing this and how it did loot actually made me want to give it a try.
It was a fantastically crafted open-world MMOFPS with enjoyable horizontal progression that ended up falling to its shitty management's ambitions to make it more like a traditional MMO once it finally launched. The studio went under IIRC and the game today is a buggy, unplayable, unfun mess. Not even getting one of the best single-seat mounts in the game just for playtesting was enough to keep me playing after launch.
I played this game for a little while. it was a lot of fun. kinda like MMO borderlands with jetpacks.
I honestly don't even blame corporations for being so shitty to the consumer. I mean, after seeing the JC Penny debacle, they probably thought "You see what you get for caring about the consumer? The consumer doesn't know what they want."
The consumer is shallow and shortsighted- lesson learned.
BRING IN THE ABERCROMBIE
That's not the whole story though, they remodeled the stores, phased out cheaper brands and brought in more expensive ones, if the fair and square model is for consistently good items at low prices it's a good deal. here we have a tool store that has almost no sales and has changing stock depending on the bulk deals they strike, and it's doing well.
They went for a more luxurious/trendy approach without testing and lost the bulk of their customers which was moms in their 30s.
we want what we can't have.
that perfect wife of yours vs that affair.....
At this point I blame the government for not forbidding these manipulative business practices.
JC Penny broke the rule that marketing figured out and Star Citizen excels at: the gamification of spending.
Today on Extra Credits: People are bloody stupid.
Nothing new there. Probably never gonna change either.
+Nep Nep well that's awfully pessimistic
Lovewaffle Realism and pessimism have a very thin divide, but I'd place what I said in the former catagory
Nep Nep
It was pessimistically realistic
Bruce Grubb One of the millions of people that know how to count binary?
*Combination.*
Fighting unintelligent monsters should get you body parts. Troll horn. Dragon scale. Nautilus shell. Black phoenix feather. Raiding their nests should get you the various shinies they picked up. Crafting components.
Intelligent monsters have gear. They WEAR the gear. They USE it on you. It always loads. You're not rolling for the Anvilmace of Destiny and hoping the Fate Giant drops it. You're getting your face smashed in by it and trying to survive, and when you kill the Fate Giant you yank his book of fate, his Anvilmace of Destiny, his Titanium Fullplate Armor and other such of his dead and cooling corpse. If you kill him before he drinks all his healing potions, you get more healing potions because he had them and didn't get to use them and they're still on his body. Then you go into his house and take anything not nailed down.
+William Barnes Yep. A good example of a similar combination system is Fallout, where you can find enemies with a gun and some components to either repair items or make food. I love it when a game combines both into the looting system.
+Souji Monaru
Skyrim did this as well.
+William Barnes One of the reasons I liked Titan Quest was that the enemies actually dropped the loot they were using. That Minotaur beating your ass with a flaming sword? Kill him and you get it. That Skeleton is way harder to kill than his pals? Turns out he had a mythic shield that you get to use now!
Maybe non-thinking monsters ha human loot from other heroes he has killed. A giant eagle thing fed a few people to its babies, and the sword and helmet left behind is still stuck in that giant nest or etcetera. This could also be a way to incorporate good loot into more enemies?
Dragons have mythology of collecting shiny things. Not just Smaug. Another perhaps?
Almost every Dungeons & Dragons game works exactly like this, though without the crafting system.
The moral of the story. The human mind is ridiculously broken.
or to put it to the dumb half of the human race (75%)
YOUR ALL FUCKING GULLIBLE IDIOTS
Paul Deddens
Yeah, there was recently a mock-survey made to see what US parents would do if they theoretically found out that their kid(s) were Homo Sapiens. I think about 70 to 90% (I'm not sure) answered that they'd kick them out of the house and most of the rest answered that they'd accept it or discuss it with their kid. I just REALLY hope that the enormous number of parents just thought that there was a typo in the survey.
Double D If you're an American parent, this makes me happy. If not, WE KNOW!
Kazi Islam ... I'm... losing faith in mankind at an incredible speed... =S
Paul Deddens 75% is not half bro...
"Some items would actually be perpetually on sale... even though that was the highest price they'd ever been sold at."
In most countries this would be considered false advertising and would result in the company being fined.
I wonder if the fair and square thing would have worked better if J.C. Penney had advertised how shady other department stores were and actively boasted about how much better they had become.
Dequan Milete It would have. I think they should try it again today. The media would absolutely tantrum over them going against the grain, the other department stores would try and start a smear campaign and only prove JC Penny's point further.
I'd like to open a bug report about humankind...
Ticket closed, works as designed. Hell, you think anyone'd still believe in me if I fixed that?
--God, head of support.
Anyone in marketing will tell you that, when you advertise a product, you are never actually selling the product itself. You're selling promises. If you market a drink, you don't market the drink itself, but the experience of the drink, how good it'll feel to hang out with your buds drinking a 'cool' drink, or if you market a massive store sale, you advertise the perceived value of the products and blow people's minds with the low price, rather than the fact that the prices are low. If JCPenny were to heavily advertise their honesty and trust, rather than the results of said honesty and trust, they would not have nearly lost the number of customers they did.
+DiscoClam That's pretty much what you have to do when you sell an item that has no intrinsic value. What's the value of a drink in a bar? It's "item value" is far lower than its price at the bar. I can get get a beer, put it in my fridge, drink it at home, for a fraction of the price I pay for the same beer, possibly in a much less clean glass, in a bar. Of course you have to sell the additional value of the experience, drinking there in a relaxed atmosphere with friends and all that.
But one thing is (sadly) true. When it comes to price, it's not what people pay that makes them buy or not. It's what they pay LESS that does.
+DiscoClam It's true, I saw a $120 blue jacket on sale one time for $20. I bought it, then saw that at another store the regular price for a jacket of almost the exact same design but in different color was at the all-time price of $20. I felt more fulfilled getting the first jacket, and probably wouldn't have given a second glance at the second jacket. You lure the customer in with the perceived value.
Also, JC Penney heavily advertised their honesty. I remember seeing commercials nonstop about their new-found honesty and such in 2011.
+Leon Mercury
maybe customers felt mad about their dishonesty.. when you start promoting your new found honesty, you imply you were dishonest.
True! In fact, there are commercials that say that they are being honest when they aren't, but they work! So that might have actually worked too!
JC Penny's mistake was a lack of advertising. I never saw a single ad about what he talked about in the video
I *loved* when JCPenny was trying their honest approach, and I increased my shopping at their store in response, but I saw it failing in real time while it was happening.
People are only intelligent about the things they apply their intellect to, and most people don't think that much about shopping. They are conditioned to think of *SALE* as a good thing, indicating savings, and that's as far as it goes. Which is perfectly understandable, of course, but unfortunate all the same.
i remember playing firefalls beta and having my inventory filled with components but it felt more like clutter than loot
+HuhJuhWuh Another common issue with the component drop system. It doesn't feel like it has intrinsic value, and some people may end up just selling their stacks of mats and just buying gear from a store, instead.
@@camillebanez8958 Make sure crafted gear is better than what the shops supply, or better yet, just base the game around the crafting system.
Rip firefall
@@nullpoint3346 basing the game on crafting gives linearity, while basing on a expected linear probability still holds the surprise factor.
Crafting alone feels grindy and boring. Something like TitanQuest actually feels better when you loot the bosses, sell loot from minions and craft stuff from special items.
A single progress system puts the entertainement value of the game in other features and may lead to unbalanced perceive satisfaction
Why not just give weapons as usual but allow you to break the item down into compodents you can re-use?
I have a idea for a loot and craft system. You battle against a human like enemies with two daggers. After you defeated it you get some parts (hilt and blade) and the dagger, after you defeated some enemies and you got some parts and weapons, when you come to the town you can go to the weapon bench, and you can take the weapons apart, or combine the parts into new weapons, the crafting system is like the in cube world but with parts (imagine like you would build a weapon out of lego pieces from the theme with weapons )
+filip gvozdiak +filip gvozdiak Although you still have the problem that the loot won't be useful to everyone. A dagger handle for example wouldn't be useful for a mage
+filip gvozdiak By compodents meant wood, steel etc which for example can be used to craft a staff despite origonally being part of a shield.
Have you even seen the parts of the lego minifigure weapons
www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Lego-Ninjago-Ninja-Minifig-GOLD-BLACK-WEAPON-SET-w-Minifigure-Dragon-Sword-/260894744054 here i thought of the system
It might just be that I'm still be a Lego kid at heart but I find the idea of getting components that I can do almost infinite things with more satisfying than getting a random pre-made thing I might not even be able to use. Actually, why not have a hybrid model of the two? Maybe enemies will drop both components and pre-made items but the pre-made items can be broken down into components. That would be like getting both a big box of loses legos and an already built Lego truck, but you can still take the truck apart and use it's parts to make that awesome giant robot you've been building.
+Silver Fang Or mix the two together such that the components *ARE* gear! :O
+Silver Fang Story of Diablo 3's crafting system :P.
+Leon Mercury Borderlands TPS sorta did this with the Grinder system: Take a bunch of your less-than-useful loot and run it though the RNG again to get something that will be better than that stuff (probably).
+Silver Fang thats a good idea, sure id like to get a sword of newb wrecking, but collecting lots of little things is a lot easier, although thats just my mindset
idk, sometimes i find the crafting dynamic exhausting and sometimes confusing. it can also be just as time consuming as the alternative, especially if you need that last piece of finishing to get that weapon you always wanted. the idea of just picking up something from your latest kill just go overboard all the time. i love getting a super rare item from my boss battle or finishing a quest, but it loses it's zeal when a common monster drops something just as good every 5 minutes
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."
Liou David That statement only holds true if one presumes that stupidity is randomly distributed around a center, median however is guaranteed
+Liou David "A person is smart, but people are stupid." As individuals we learn and grow at a individual rate. We experiment, develop and we create according to how we learn best. But placed in a group we have whats called crowd mentality, where we have a tendency to follow the majority, even when we ourselves don't agree with them. Because of this, a few idiots in a crowd can quickly escalate to utter chaos. Not that it's a bad thing, crowd mentality is meant to be a survival instinct among nature, allowing pack animals to survive larger predators, or hunt larger animals. Among humans it has helped form movements that are beneficial to humanity. So yes, Humans are stupid, but they are also extremely intelligent. It just depends on what form of intelligence you are measuring at the time.
On an unrelated note: "Stupider" is not a word, the correct phrase is more stupid.
For those who doesn't know, that's a quote from the late George Carlin.
yup
Average dosn't mean half are higher. Median is the term you're looking for.
wow... watching the example of JC Penny made me smile in the beginning... I started thinking, "Wow! Companies are finally starting to be honest and fair and FINALLY started doing things that respected the consumer!".. then, BAM. Hope shot down. :/
Which goes to show that a certain amount of corporate misbehaviour (though certainly not all) is mandated by the irrationalities of consumers. We have met the enemy and he is us.
Terrible, isn't it? Consumer advocates must cry themselves to sleep at night, thinking about how the people they're fighting for unconsciously undermine themselves.
It's egotistic to think there is a few elite members of society pulling people down and telling people lies, people for the most case, get treated how they want, because they're not willing to do anything about it or are okay with how things are. I mean, if I could release something that greatly benefited society, but would cause massive changes in the infrastructure, it would never come to pass.
*****
Wow, genuinely well said sir.
That's because consumers are so easy to manipulate
lol the JC Penney effect just has me losing hope about humanity and consumerism. It's like we fucking want to be misled.
+timlamiam We do, its why we marry poeple who cheat on us, rust those who decieve us, and buy things that dont make us happy, its whyw e take shitty jobs and why we take useless degrees, because paying the consequences for being decieved doesnt bruise our egos as much as facing reality. AKA life is hard and somewhat apathetic to your existence.
+timlamiam I kind of felt the same way when I watched this video.
+timlamiam You're more likely to buy something that is $3.99 not $4.00 and obviously a price that is marked down will make you seem like you got a deal and you feel almost that you "beat" the company.
We do like being misled.
+Emotivation I don't buy into the whole $0.99 thing. It bugs me when I think of it. When figuring the price I just think of it as $1.00 in my head. There's literally tax on everything (at least where I live) so it's not going to be $0.99 or $0.95 it's going to be $1.00 and then some.
capitalism rewards participation in the quest for loopholes, cheating, trickery, just ways to word thieving to make it sound noble
This is the reason why these things should be taught at the end of school years, so we don't throw genuinely nice things away because our mental wiring is making us dumber because we're learning to trick it. The best way to end a scam is teaching as many people as possible about it.
I hate that JCP tried to be honest and real with their customers, and we, the customers, punished them. What a messed up world.
This video is quite old, but I still feel as though I have some input.
Both.
It would be borderline perfect if all enemies dropped crafting components AND had a chance to drop loot. Even if a boss- for example- doesn't drop the awesome golden weapon you wanted, they would still drop an insane amount of crafting components with some being rarer than others as well as things like gold or experience. This would improve the reward system by an insane amount as you'd never feel too underwhelmed.
Borderlands 2 did something very similar to this with it's loot system and it's still one of the most satisfying today. Maybe you didn't get a legendary, but you still got lots of cash, eridium, experience, a few grenade mods and maybe a relic or two. Everybody wins.
Agreed.
***** Agreed and it's one of the things I like so much about Dark Souls since enemies have a chance to drop BOTH at once sometimes.
doomrider7 terraria does it well too. Mobs do mostly drop components but they do have a rare chance to drop a better weapon (some very rare).
doomrider7 the fact that souls are the pure currency of the game to level, buy weapons, buy other crap, and everything else that souls do make it an amazing game .
***** That is an excellent idea. I like things that go inbetween. It is sort of like how in WOW enemies can drop fancy items or cloth used for tailoring and first aid. Most beasts can drop vendor trash, and can be skinned for leather used for leather-crafting.
So...validation. Just...disappointed in humanity...
+Franklin Falco reasons why I don't trust most people 😂😂
Many of them would rather believe a lie that feels amazing rather than a truth that feels okay. That means they're fickle and will let themselves be deceived to get that emotional high. Why would I trust someone that unreliable?
+Franklin Falco oh there's definitely that, I but I would not trust a person's commitment and sincerity until I have proof beyond doubt.
It's not like the average consumer has access to that info or that the company branded itself that way via marketing. People who are knowledgeable about the truth will often embrace it.
But also, don't be so arrogant as to think you're above the same kind of manipulation. You're human too.
I'm not saying I am beyond it, though I understand and appreciate why you would think that. What I mean is that I'm disappointed in the fact that my suspicions about other people (not that it's their fault) have been confirmed true to an extent. I have grown up with serious trust issues, is all.
I like when a game drops loot that I can scrap for components
It isn't that people are "stupid", but that we were evolved to a different set of environmental ques and demands than those in the world we have created... and marketing is *exclusively* the art and science of abusively manipulating that descrepency as ruthlessly as possible. The JCPenny effect is an example of WHY you need to do some things top down, with regulation rather than through "market forces", because even though they tried to come clean, that doesn't mean that everyone else has also suddenly stopped preying on our emotional hooks.
And all of this because the central dogma (and complete myth) of economics, that people are all "rational actors", would basically require every single person to have PhDs in neuroscience, psychology, history, economics, and a healthy dose of being explicitly shown how propaganda actively works to subvert all of that... just to make every day decisions. And the fact that "ain't noone got time for that" doesn't make us stupid, but it does make us abusable. And the other thing we shouldn't have time for, is institutionalized, universal abuse.
AutodidacticPhd Ah, but then you put in place your top down system, and regulators ruthlessly manipulate your emotions for their own power and benefit. Really...you make it sound like you need half a dozen phds when the question I end up asking about "stupid" people most often is what where they doing during Jr. High Math courses besides listening to basic math that allows them to continue being so stupid all the time. It's one of those self fullfilling prophecies, if you believe that "Stuff is too hard to figure out and someone else ought to do it for me while keeping 4 times the cost of that service for overhead in the government budget." then it will be. Someone is happily investing in controling those agencies you've surrendered your decsion making processes to, and controling them, therefore controling you. UNLESS you develop your own critical thinking.
Frank Johnson You want to actually quote the part where I said the only alternative is central authority? Or where I said that admitting to the overwhelming volume of information means giving up on critical thinking? Of the reforms I would most like to see, the addition of explicit critical thinking and media awareness to basic public curriculum is very near the top priority. Nothing about free market economics implies a better educated, rational, or freely acting populace. And neither does a more socially conscious model imply passivity... if anything, I'd say the exact reverse of those strawman assumptions is closer to the truth.
AutodidacticPhd Nothing about free market economics implies a better educated populace? Well there's certainly a better motivation, because no one else is going to do it for you. Critical thinking isn't something you can aim at a few politically selected targets that you don't like. If they let that genie out of the bottle, kids would start critically thinking about government, and we can't have that now can we? Ultimately though where your argument falls flat on it's face is whatever emotional human fallings consumers or marketeers have, government will be made up of those same corrupt humans. There's no virtuous supermen waiting that can weild that sort of power without being compromised themselves over any signficant period of time, as history shows.
Frank Johnson I'm sorry, but I really have no time to argue against an amorphous strawman. All forms of human community entail something you could call government, even anarchy. By writing the whole category off as a boogyman, you don't gain freedom, but only insure an inability to analyse what actually is and participate in shaping what may be.
AutodidacticPhd Ah yes, violence is much too useful for you to abandon.
What about both?
Make it drop weapons and materials, like, droping weapons that are meh compared to the weapons you CAN make between the loot when crafting it. so you feel progress right of the bat with the weapons and then feel even stronger when you reach the town to craft them or something.
I really like this idea
This is actually why I love the Monster Hunter series so much. You get the components when out hunting and craft what you need when you get back to town! Plus the monsters are awesome.
Alternative title: "The J.C. Penney's Effect - Proof that humans are stupid"
3 years later...
So which had more votes?
idk
every one just had "drop memes" in the email
Personally, I hate the traditional item system. Getting random items I can't use, especially good ones, always makes me so mad. The idea of getting crafting components and making your own items, honestly, is very rewarding for me. It's like Monster Hunter where you make your own sword from the bones and hide of monsters you slay. You have to return to town to sell all the junk you cannot use anyway, why not make that "junk" able to turn into stuff you can really use?
This, so much this. And, getting a toxic glande from a spider feels SO MUCH COOLER than getting a ready made poison. It feels like you actually hunted for that item, not just a stupid quirk in the game. I have to disagree with this Extra Credits in that sense, and I can say, if FireFall does a loot system, I'd protest the hell out of it.
I agree. Monster Hunters crafting system is pretty much this. Though now it has me thinking WHY it works so well. Maybe because it doesn't just fly off an enemy? You have to work to get the rare stuff, break there face, cut off there tail, ect. And you don't just pick it up you have to CARVE it off them. It makes you really feel like a hunter.
Easy fix for both problems - enemies drop complete items and or components. You can dismantle the items for components that you need.
you have three "bags"; BagItems, which you will not dismantle, BagPic'a'Part, items that you might dismantle (they may have more resale value as whole items), and BagComponents.
When considering what items you want to build BagPic'a'Part is considered to contain components.
And for further instant gratification you could have a shopping list of components for each item on your wish list showing progress with object acquired.
This fills the need for instant gratification and also allows the more imaginative of us to create special items.
For an added bonus, the components themselves could be used as one-shot items (such as a one off attack or buff) or traded for other components, meaning even if it's an item made up of components you can't build anything you're interested with, you get some disposable toys or a means to get needed components.
That's a cool idea.
I've always come back to this episode since I originally saw it JUST to contemplate what to say. I honestly thing the answer is "It depends". If you are in an MMO or any RPG that has a gear weight system or a item banking system, that only allows so many items to be in your pack at one time, you should go with the gear version. If you have an unlimited space in that small pouch, you should probably go with a hybrid system, one where ultra rare gear drops at a >5% chance, and components drop constantly. The only way a true component-based system would work would be if the component would be to instantly upgrade an item, like a XP counter for your weapon, and it could be that some weapons need a specific type or multiple types of Compnents to actually upgrade the weapon. But this is just what I think.
Monster Hunter will always feel far more rewarding to me than any MMO loot system. I fight tooth and claw for every piece of gear I acquire, for every single thing I use in that game. Sure, some stuff can be purchased to save time (Ammo, some trap materials, basic potions, etc). But when I finally get that last piece of monster scrap for my new bowgun, or my new armor set...holy fuck does that feel SO good. SO GOOD.
In the end, while it's all just code and not real, I feel a LOT more fond/proud of that armor or weapon I made. I feel more satisfied with my account overall because I've WORKED for it.
I get super frustrated when I play typical rpg loot systems like these. I play Marvel Online and nothing irks me more than getting a unique for a character I don't play or just don't have yet. It wasted my fucking time. Yeah, it's nice to get something I can slap on right away. But I have very little interest in that item in it's entirety. It'll just get tossed out of my inventory when I inevitably find another with better stat rolls.
Yet that gun or armor I made in MH will ALWAYS have a use to me. While they might be weaker than my high class armor or weapons, the skills the armor provides or the ammo the gun can use will still be relevant to me depending on the situation I plan to get myself into. Even if I never use a gun or armor set again, I'll NEVER get rid of it, because I worked my balls off to attain it.
The fact people are so easily manipulated and (frankly) enjoy being manipulated despite knowing its happening is startling.
+Collin Shorette I agree, ripping the head off your enemy and wearing it like a mask makes monster hunter's the best loot system I've ever had the pleasure of using. It also encourages players to work together to get better gear from harder mobs, especially if your friends are further along than you. This is the opposite of normal drop loot systems where having more people means lower chances of you being the one who gets the loot or even making it impossible to distribute exp if one party member is over-leveled.
Zadamanim
Exactly. And having a good (or just well coordinated team) makes grinding feel a whole lot less...well...like grinding. Each and every successful hunt that goes off without a hitch feels so damn good. Knowing what parts to damage, completing subquests, capturing and whatever other methods one can do to increase drop chances feels even better. You're not just causing battle damage to them. You're actively making your loot odds a lot better.
It really makes the game a hell of a lot better and really conducive to the team oriented play. With everyone having individual odds and not group odds on any loot really helps too, so that not just the 'best player' gets the good stuff.
It reminds me of a recent Mythbusters episode, where they tried to find the most efficient way to board an airplane, but instead of just studying the actually time, they studied how people felt about the boarding method.
One method was to have absolutely no method, and just let everyone come to the gate and find a seat wherever they want. It proved to be the most time-effective method, that got everyone on board and seated faster than any other. But it also scored the worst for how the passengers felt, and by an overwhelming margin. Passengers hated that method the absolute most.
On the show they said that we need to feel structure. Personally, I see it more simply that the passengers felt like they got a raw deal, because they could have had a better seat but someone else took it. But either way, the fact remains that how people felt greatly outweighed what they actually got.
Back to games, Valve hybridized these perfectly in Team Fortress 2. First, items can be turned into scrap, then better metals to try again for the item you want. Then, some items can be combined into more items, some of which include more metal in the recipie. You get the feels of an item drop, and the fairness of a material drop.
the truth has been spoken :D The why not both theory :D
And you also get shafted because you can trade the 1 scrap metal for a weapon on any trade server instead of spending 50 scrap metal to get the one item you wanted.
The difference is that none of the weapons or cosmetics crafted or found in the game are direct upgrades to the Stock weapons. All weapons are either sidegrades or downgrades with attributes that make up for the disadvantage (i.e. The Ubersaw has a slower use time but builds Ubercharge on hit). The only progress you make in TF2 is obtaining more skill, both as a player and a teammate.
Rooper Thereby, making it a more balanced experience. It wouldn't work too well on an MMO, but TF2 perfects it.
*****
Firefall is experimenting with reducing the level jump between newb and leet. Right now, a fully set up character seems to be at most, three times better than a new character. Which compared to the 50-50,000 health jump in some games from level 1-90, it works out well.
To me, it's both. Getting items that you want, but also getting resources. Rather than get resources alone, how about a break down of items to get resources and use those resources to improve your stuff. This would feed into both.
Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2, and possibly the old republic.
It would be much more rewarding to unlock new recipes and be capable of making stuff yourself, but the joy of getting something rare that you were not expecting can never be changed ... Perhaps something a bit more intertwined and mixed with the two features could be refined to an amazing game feature ...
Sitting here years later, I dedicate much of my time to playing theMMO Final Fantasy 14 and in their first expansion, Heavensward, they implemented a token system which I think is a good in-between for this issue. Each time you complete a raid or a hard boss, you get a token which is specific to the instance. If you get enough tokens, you can turn in those tokens for a piece of gear or other things from that drop from there. So, even if you get unlucky a bunch of times, you know you'll eventually get the piece you want for all of your hard work, especially since some of these instances are on a weekly lockout. Recently they changed the token system to include turning in 99 tokens for some of the rare mounts which drop from the Extreme versions of Primals (aka hard boss fights) which have been estimated to have about a 5% drop rate. This is a nice change because if your RNG sucks like me and can't roll above a 30 to save your life, you can still get it even if you get beat by the other party members every single time.
What if slaying the monster was part of the crafting?
Stab it with a hilt and pull out a giant awesome sword.
Or when it dies its body becomes a magical crafting table so you can whip out a hammer and finally assemble the components into that badass chestpiece?
I think your on to something there. Whats important isnt whether picking up an object feels more substantial then its base components its about avoiding the mundane. Crafting works in games like minecraft because minecraft is supposed to be casual and mundane simple fun, but fantasy games are about empowering the player to be something hes not. Without some sort of fanfare or flash your not really getting what you paid for.
I prefer when enemies drop components. There's nothing more satisfying than crafting an awesome weapon from the bones and armored skin of a giant monster that just took you 20 minutes to slay (Monster Hunter in case you didn't see what I'm getting at).
At the same time, in games where you have to grind and everything has a percentage chance to drop (looking at you Dark Souls II), I don't want to have to kill the same enemy who is HOLDING the weapon I want for 20 minutes.
I agree
This survey is pointless. He explained to his audience, the survey sample, how the component gameplay is objectively better, so they're biased.
I personally would like to loot components instead of gear. That way, not only can I make the gear I actually use (unlike in Nostale, where I rushed through that damn hard dungeon of impossibility over and over again just to NOT get the archer´s gear for once, only to end up with the warrior crap), but it also feels better to make stuff by yourself. Just google "Ikea Effect" if you don´t believe me.
I think it would depend for me. Right now, most MMO games use specific loot locked behind bosses to gate progress. You have to get X weapon from a raid to go on to the next, and that's the only place you can get it unless you buy it, which usually isn't the case.
With crafting components, all you're changing is the limitation of who can roll. The amount of grind could be the same, if not more, than with a gear system, but now every roll you have a chance to try on. Add to that I can almost guarantee no game with this system is only going to require 1 of any component, so even after you get your drop, you still need to do it again. So nothing really changes except for how often you get a chance to roll. Any benefit in time saved you get from rolling on every item is negated when you factor in you now need more than before.
And Ikea Effect isn't a law. Personally, I hate putting things together myself 99% of the time. If I DESIGN it myself, I feel great, but just buying something to put someone else's design together? Nah, I'll gladly have someone else do that.
Daniel LeBlanc Sure, people would have to kill the same monster over and over again to gain enough materials. but it is far more frustrating to kill a sh*tload of monsters, with a rare drop you need, but two other equally rare drops that are totally useless to you. So, in two of three cases this rare drop actually, well, drops, you end up with one you don´t need.
Considering Monster Hunter runs on the exact principles of crafting and is insanely popular worldwide, I'd say it's better
Monster Hunter is a different game entirely than what the episode's scope was. The game is designed around single-player gameplay with co-op options, where Firefall is an MMORPG.
And better as in some people like it more? Sure. But MMORPGs have a large player base than Monster Hunter does, world-wide, so not sure if you can just claim its popularity as it being 'better'.
Also, functionally they are exactly the same. In a MMO, I grind dungeon X to get the gear I need, with only a chance to get it. In MH, I can grind X quest to get the mats I need, which drop at a slightly better chance than the MMO gear but still only a chance, and I need more of them than just one. So an MMO with MH's system would be functionally identical to the current gear trend. The rest is pure opinion on which is 'better' (personally, I hate anything that adds grind for grind's sake, especially if what you're grinding is boring).
Most people tend to like shinier, rarer drops than small trinkets, which is one of the main reasons rare gear drops haven't gone away. Hell, GW2- an MMO that did away with the endless gear-grind of dungeons- still has those unique and rare drops from bosses rather than the crafting materials to craft those items. Because it feels amazing when you beat the odds and get them. Lottery, gambling, raffles all demonstrate this. I think a game would be hard pressed to give that same enthusiasm about a crafting material drop that you need 4 of total. And if you only need 1, then it is the exact same thing as the current gear system- arguably worse since you have to then go and craft the item (usually by way of a poorly designed crafting system that itself is another grind) before you can use it, where a piece of gear you can just equip.
Daniel LeBlanc Have you played monster hunter?
terraria. talk to the guide and he'll tell you what you can make with the things you have, even if you only have one part of it
monster drops some new item? check in with the guide, 'oh looks like you can make a CrazyBlade, the CrazyWand or the CrazyBow with +2000 to Awesomeness each, but you're missing this ore or this plant'
theN you go out on this pseudo quest to make one of the Crazy weapons, and it just feels awesome when you finally get to use it
we need more games that do things like that
i would choose 80% to 95% mineral with 1 or 2 IMPORTANT ITEMS that are "not crafftable" but are "important plot wise"
like
hey you just murdered 60 guards you got "5 kg piece of metal x 58" + 2 "perfect swords", a "you can get the item perfecly if lucky OR build it yourself if you wish.
that way instead of doin "x mission 50 times for a ramdom loot" you do "x mission 5 times to get the material to do the item you want yet could get in the 1 or second try with luck"
I didnt try the beta, but according to what I understood, the developers reduced the value of the drops by simply making them useful for every job. If everything is useful nothing is, you need some sort of measurement to tell when an item is useful and when is just crap. This is an opposite case of what happened with Diablo 3, with very hard to get drops, with this you need much time to farm dophamine in the player, and in the other there's actually no dophamine because you are not actually farming it.
+Alex Stradivarius this is why they stopped using quality modifiers and just switched to various minerals being rarer than others. the main issue with the game, though, is that it's hard to figure out where the stuff you want is located, which if they simplified, would make gameplay more rewarding.
Components are definitely more fun. I get infinitely more excited when i find that final piece i need to craft something i want in Terraria than i do getting a sword I've been grinding for in Dark Souls.
THANK YOU for saying this. Two great games!
Doesnt monster hunter do this already?
caske1996 I feel like Monster Hunter makes the rewards for obtaining these craftables more noticeable like I likely get same feeling when I carve a S. Magala Mantle from a G rank S Magala knowing that (monster hunter being a purely equipment driven game) that I'm going to be getting my new badass greatsword. Or perhaps its that you get these carves at the end of the quest and then your immediately back in town and are right where you need to be to instantly craft your weapon of badassitude. The "getting and epic carve" is the same as a "getting an epic weapon or armor piece" because you immediately get to make your weapon or armor piece as soon as you finish your quest.
Sam Stansberry True, and even if you cant make anything from some of the loot you got, you can always decide to make it into a new weapon and expand your horizons
I think Monster Hunter does this well because it takes the divergent path. You get crafting item drops, sure, but you can't always use all of them. And you don't fight monsters simply to get the items, but also to complete a quest and unlock more of the game.
DiscoClam True, also, getting items that are not necessairily usefull for the weapon path you want means that you can use it to experimint with other weapon types
Plus you aren't restricted to what the game tells you you can't use (Only Mages can use this weapon) and are much more free to explore everything you can get without necessarily feeling cheated. Then again, Monster Hunter tends to demand much more from its players, with it's unrelenting difficulty, so players would probably feel cheated if they put in all that effort to get items that they could never use.
I plan on having all my monsters drop materials that can be sold or used in crafting, but sometimes you fight a sapient and they drop actual equipment and gold.
a long way late... but next time you want have a survey to ask people's opinions on a system, you might want to ask before you tell the viewer that one system is better than the other.
You definitely didn't get genuine answers, you got people trying to agree or disagree with you,and their actual opinions may be sacrificed based on their personality and how much they like to oppose other people's opinions.
I'd recommend giving a general description in what both systems are, then asking for opinions, then making the actual video about the system.
I want to both agree without because your argument seemed sound and disagree with you for the sake of debate.
I can't believe JC Penny's idea failed so horribly. I never even heard about it....yet it sounds incredible. As for a loot system, why not a mix of both? Have MOSTLY minerals drop, like 80-90%. But that last 10% has a chance to drop an already-made, awesome item.
In MMOs I love getting items my class can't use. I love using them to barter for items I can use, or even gifting them to appropriate friends or guildmates.
Yeah, they are still suffering from the whole disaster. It is very unfortunate but too be honest I know a lot of people, including myself, think that way. Your idea sounds a lot better cause it can appeal to everyone. I am just worried about the Resident Evil 6 syndrome which is trying to make everyone happy results in no one being happy. The barter effect is an excellent point since I used to do that as well. It at least gets us to interact with other people.
A year late, but instead of dropping the materials to make a weapon, you could allow any and all drops to be broken down at a loss into components which can upgrade the drops you can use, or otherwise build something entirely new. That way no drop you get is wasteful to the consumer, but it still feels awesome to get that shiny sword of ultimate power you've been grinding for.
I know this video is pretty old, but I really enjoy Firefall's item system. It takes a bit of getting used to, but it allows much more customization. No need to grind and get a bunch if useless equipment.
I've been playing for about 6 months or so. Really enjoy the game. It's rather ambitious, but it's breaking ground in odd ways.
Also, the movement system is impeccable. Even if you have to walk somewhere (before you get a vehicle), it's still enjoyable. First mmo to achieve that in my book.
The JC Penney strategy was actually going to work in the long run. They just panicked and threw it all away because they lost some money.
+Johnny Horstman You can't ignore losing billions of dollars. I wish they succeeded, would have been a win for the consumer and business generally
+Johnny Horstman this is true but only a small part. advertising was also a big factor. they did a horrible job. many people didn't understand or know about the method. many of those that knew just thought that they were just no longer going to have sales.
they also had bad advertising coming from competing companies. trying to give that idea bad press. Much like how the Gamecube was attacked by Microsoft in preparation for the Xbox.
yes they were going to lose money per customer but given time they would have started making more in volume. this was delayed due to bad advertisement. they panicked and dropped the new method.
in a nut shell they would rather play it safe and rip everyone off.
+Deathwish Yeah, that was the final nail in the coffin, the competition. That strategy is great in a vacuum, not so much when mixed in the Sunday circulars with 15 competitors' ads saying things like "some companies don't believe in having sales to save you money, but we do! Announcing half off everything in stock!" and "For some people paying full price for clothes is a bragging right, but for most of us, saving the most money possible is what matters. That's why you can save up to 60% this weekend..." The competition made their strategy look greedy and disadvantageous to the consumer by doubling down on the very thing that strategy was meant to circumvent and then calling out how Penny's wouldn't do the same.
Firefall was shut down in 2017. However, I'd like to know what your poll findings were.
i love this channel :) also had a idea for a game. what if there was no "class based gear" instead each class manifests weapons from like a crystal. and as you defeat enemies your crystal absorbs the enemies power and can drop like special infusions to customize the manifested weapons
Actually, a more recent game I can think of that does a system like Firefall is Fantasy Life. And, the developers make it work pretty well, especially when there are classes that basically help the player to gather their own resources to do make their own stuff, which they can either use, or sell in order to buy materials in bulk as a person needs them.
I prefer Components, the more individual you can make your character the better I like the game - I never liked grinding in any game, it always makes me lose motivation
I'm a pretty unusual gamer though, judging from the games I like and don't like
Even though this is a REALLY old episode, I feel that this needs to be said. MINECRAFT did this, and it worked tremendously. I think its because they didn't automatically craft that awesome obsidian and diamond mod sword that deals 20+ damage, you have to figure out how to craft it. All you got were components, but it still felt rewarding. Maybe it's because you figured it [the recipe] out? I dunno. That's just my opinion, though. I haven't played firefall myself, but if this is how it happened, then it could feel extremely rewarding, because you could teach other people how to craft the sword and rainbow awesomeness, because it's an MMO.
I love getting awesome items after crafting them, more than when they randomly drop, probably because I cm see how close I am and get hyped for it, rather than it maybe taking another few minutes or a couple hours, so it lets me get more hyped for an item, thus making me feel better after crafting it.
2020 here: What's Firefall?
Why not take a system like Kid Icarus Uprising? You get an item, and some components, and then if you don't want the item, you can take it apart for a bit less than the item is worth, and use the total components you got to get an item that is a bit less effective if you kept it or gave it to another player. That way, you can take it apart, getting more components but a less effective weapon, or you can keep the weapon, but have less components to work with.
Minecraft and Monster hunter do this and I preffer that over loot drops
Actually, minecraft does a not of both. I think Terraria's system is great. You can sell the stuff you don't want.
Ryan McClure In minecraft, a skeleton can seem to be extremely powerful, why you ask? It has an enchanted bow. This is one of the cases I would accept the bow over the bones. Even if the bow is damaged, I can repair my bow and get better enchants on it, I truthfully think games shouldn't have to choose gear or loot, but rather mix both to where a more powerful variant of a mob can drop gear with some better loot than the others.
Ah, but in Minecraft you can build "mob grinders" which constantly kill mobs and stores loot for you if made efficiently, so you don't have to! I suppose that's what I like about it - if some things you don't like doing, you can automate them and get stacks of items and experience :)
I saw one time, a guy created a Village by himself where one villager bought wheat for emeralds, and the rest sold iron, diamonds and other precious stuff for emeralds. He could make wheat, an easily accessible resource, into precious materials! I was pretty amazed by it to be honest.
you can do it more efficiently in terraria
yeap
One bucket of lava and a statue
IM DONE GUYS
I'd do a mix and match:
Items for crafting are your basic drops, but you can find actual items as well, dropped from enemies who carry them/taken from chests/ dropped from bosses and mini-bosses.
I think a combination of both types would be cool, where you could get components or, more rarely, gear. this would actually retain all of the good points of both systems, while eliminating most of the down sides. the loot system's problem of not being able to equip some things is overridden by the components being dropped, while the component's lackluster feeling is supplemented with the occasional rare gear drop.
I never heard that J.C. Penney story before.... Holy fuck, I have no words to express how depressing it is that when a company finally decides to be honest out of good intentions rather than something that could lead to profit, it falls flat on it's ass. Most if not all major corporations work for nothing other than profit. Fuck the costumer, fuck ethical conduct, fuck sympathy, they want nothing other than to grow even more maniacally huge than they are. Not like that amount of money can be used for good while taking a small risk once in a while or anything. Example: McDonald's. Their food is practically made of shit combined with whatever addictive, cheap legal substances they can get their hands on.
Jc Penny was effectively ruined when that apple cast off took over. They made shopping there difficult. It took 20 min just to check out because the ipod touch they were using as the price gun wouldn't work. It was brutal. I'm sure apple enjoyed selling them junk pos terminals though.
Man, the component based loot sounds so amazing. I would've loved to play an MMO with a system like that.
I know is a little to late, but what about getting the awesome loot such as
swords and mage staffs but with an in game option to deconstruct items into
materials? That way you get the immediate reward satisfaction and the
option of crafting the item you want.
I love your channel, thanks for everything.
A big hug to the whole team.
Stay fresh!
JCPenny's idea also changed the way they marked racks, so instead of "$5 or less" racks, there were "$5 or more." That's why their new pricing system failed for me: I don't like the idea that there is likely only one worthwhile item amid the much more expensive, much less interesting items.
In terms of games that feels like having a 2% chance of getting an excellent item and wading through junk to get there. I prefer getting more reliable item drops and using them to build something great, rather than having a slim chance of getting a great item.
This is a really old video but Monster Hunter uses a similar system and works a lot better than Firefall for one main reason:
*Monster Hunter is consistent.* When you get a crafting material in most games you don't have any clue what it'll make except through genre conventions, guessing based on what the material is, or if you happen to know the recipe. In Monster Hunter, EVERY large monster has a specific armorset associated with them that anyone can use (even if it might not be optimal for your build, but most armorsets are useful) and multiple weapons that you may or may not be interested in (but that you can use if you like) that you can make out of that monster's materials.
Even if you don't know what you've just unlocked, you can check when your hunt is finished, and you'll probably find something you're interested in working towards. In Firefall, you collected loads of clutter that you didn't really understand until the game said you had enough junk to make what you wanted. Monster Hunter provides structure where it says if you want Rathian armor, you need to kill Rathians.
It also helps that Monster Hunter is pretty clear about what is and isn't rare and isn't afraid to use heavy RNG (or even dabbling in traditional RPG loot systems) in its drops, it's just that the baseline equipment is fair to get. Ultra-rare items are still an absolute bitch to craft and feel like achievements when you finally manage it.
i worked at JCPenny during that time. So, so many customers commented on the change. Usually, they would say, "when did JCPenny get so expensive? Aren't there any coupons?" etc. As employees we would try to explain that the prices hadn't really increased (and in fact, most prices had actually decreased in comparison to the former "sale" prices), but the customers weren't buying it - literally.
I once played a game where you could instantly craft materials into whatever weapons/tools you wanted as soon as you got enough of said materials, instead of needing to go back to town or use some sort of station. It also showed you all the cool weapons you could make at once with the materials and it was the best thing ever (in my opinion). I think it was a RPG-Maker game?
i think something inbetween is best, have things like a zombie with a steel shortsword, drop THAT shortsword, have a pig, for example, drob its hide and meat. to get the idea
Components. A nice middle ground would be breaking gear for it's components to craft a custom item.
I honestly like the idea of component drops better. It makes me think of monster hunter, and while it doesn't provide the immediate gratification it does provide something else. When you finally get the equipment you wanted it feels AWESOME. It feels like you've earned it, and that it's not just random chance. You would need to include some things like progress bars to get most people to feel it, but it could definitely work.
i like the way that you get parts from a monster to craft items. but it can still be made to grind, like certain items can be rare, like the monster hunter style
Components, just look at Warframe. I personally feel much more accomplished when actually having collected all the stuff and making something epic, than when having to grind for that 0.1% chance that this same epic thing drops for no appearent reason.
+Navnik BHSilver
Actually, if you think about it, Warframe managed to create combination of both.
"Normal gear", doesnt matter if it's good or not, uses resource system when you collect 1000 of that, 500 of that, 100 of this and that 1 resource that drops with 1% chance and then melts into nothing 24h later.
Then we have the Prime Gear, which is both supposed to be the best gear in the game (which is often true) and in the same time it's a powerful gear from lore's perspective too. used by Orokin, the no-longer existing faction that, according to the lore, had best technology advances in the universe (and best looking too, with ornamental gold and stuff).
The Prime Gear does not require resources. Only 1, which is more of "uncommon" than "rare". Everything else - are parts. Parts needed exclusively to build that one awesome gun, for which you'd have to grind for days and weeks, based on how lucky are you. And when you finally get that Primed Thing - you feel accomplished, another one into your Prime Gear collection. Looks good, probably performs good, but importantly - now it's yours.
So yeah, Warframe managed to create combination of both systems.
Though people hate RNG-based grinding for Prime Parts, because playing same mission for 100 times to get that one last part is a little bit... anoying.
I really feel sorry for JC Penney. They did what folks wanted: fair prices. Of course humans like whine about everything so they got pissed at the store.
Even worse the dress clothing for had gotten much better. They replaced the old boring junk with new, high quality clothing. Of course, women do the shopping now (pity), so they complained about that too.
***** Holy crap, I FINALLY get what that quote means!!
***** Holy crap, I FINALLY get what that quote means!!
***** What I really need is a human that understands the binary language of finance. (
That JC Penny example makes sad for humanity. Another example in a long list of examples proving how completely insane human beings are.
If their focus was for the customer, than maybe keep the sales and take advantage of the consumer's ignorance, and just either increase the percentage on the sale, or decrease the actual price when not on sale. And this just made me think of someone opening a store, having everything be ridiculously overpriced, $2,000 for a pair of pants, then have everything on sale where it is like, 99.99% off. The 99.99% Sale Store! It is a funny thought, and I don't actually think it would, but it would be a funny way to 'make a point'. Kind of reminds me of that 'Achievement Unlocked' game for some reason.
Kind of strayed there. Ehem. Maybe having the player choose from a list takes away from the 'surprise' of the drop. And the choosing idea doesn't take into account for unique weapons, that are dropped with boosts (which some MMO's have) unless you choose like... A class of weapon. Unless you included this in the train of thought. 'I want a random broad sword, so I collect the 'minerals' to play slots-' No... Then if you want players to be able to pick up weapons that they can't use, say for trade or possible weapon deconstruction, the players would only focus on their own class. But then again, their focus is already on their own class, getting the best they can. But with others getting those drops they can't use, it opens the doors for the ones who CAN use them; as you can get more weapons to buy with everyone grinding, than if you spent the time grinding for all those weapons. All for one, and one for all sort of thing there... Maybe? But then I don't know if this would screw with the game's economy, but I'm sure that has more to do with the gold aspect than this aspect.
My point mainly being that the way people think and feel will not go away, so why not use it to do good? Make it FEEL good, while also making it good for the player. Best of both worlds! Brainstorming! :V
a combination of the 2 where you got the epic items but could deconstruct them for crafting parts for another item seems like it would be a nice system
I think this is a very good case study. I predict most people will vote components, but still realize they prefer gear in practice. I think most people will choose objectively when given a poll or something like that, but revert to what feels good in actual practice. So I would expect the poll results to contradict reality.
also nvm, i didn't check the date on this video XD pfffffff
One exception to this rule: MineCraft.
Whether you love it or hate it (personally I'm just a little burnt out), you can't deny that getting a diamond (especially the first one) or making an awesome mansion feels... fun (I can't think of a better word right now). Just some for thought.
JC Penny, we are so sorry... Most humans are idiots. Never try to call for they intellect.
"Most humans are idiots."
"Never try to call for *they* intellect."
Oh, the irony...
Hey, he never excluded himself.
My version of the solution:
The drop rate should be split between materials and items, and you should be able to scrap pre-constructed non-relic type items for crafting materials.
For Firefall, I feel like they have a list of items you can craft and it will show you what items you need, and if your inventory has the items, it will show how many you have out of what you need to craft the item. This would make it easier to track what items you need and have, plus it will show the crafting feature, because I have never even noticed the crafting option.
Why not the best of both worlds? Gear AND Components combined into one. You just looted "Berserker's Axe" from an Ogre you've just killed. The Axe has lost much of its power over the years and must be reenchanted again. You can then retune the Axe to specs that closely match your build.
Components system all the way, so long as they give meaning to the components you destroy like the crafting mechanics in monster hunter or collect quests in ragnarok. I don't want all monsters to just drop minerals, I mean if i kill a giant scorpion, i want to be able to bring the pincers and tail to the black smith and have it fashioned into a sword. it feels better than the scorpion dropping meaningless earth minerals or in the case of mmorpgs, "the scorpion dropped the scorpion's edge" why is a scorpion carrying a sword made out of a scorpion -_-
I'm a huge Minecraft fan and I lean mote towards components. There's just something very satisfying about getting that special item by working towards it and making it yourself, that moment when you see the icon in the crafting table and drag it into your inventory is always one of the best ones for me. To me it feels much better slaying the same old mobs hundreds of times just to have a sword drop in front of you.
I know this came out a year ago, but I feel like you can have both. Like a monster could drop an item or it could drop something you could use immediately. Or you could have a dropped object that if you couldn't use it, you could brake it apart for more raw materials.
So i just stumbled across this video after playing Monster Hunter Generations, and i can honestly say that, thats not true.
Monster hunters craftable items and carving and ONLY getting literal body parts from the monster, feels good.
When i craft my Lagiacrus armor, i know i my 6-7 hour grind for minerals, scales, tails, spikes, and various other parts, felt good. I beat the big boss and the loot i got from it was a representation of my hard work.
Exactly. I believe monster hunter is probably the best example of how this can honestly still give that great feeling.
After playing Skyrim, I got much more enjoyment out of making my own gear than finding it, so I'd have to go with components.
I know this video is over a year old, did they tally up the responses? If so, where could I find them?
Apparently, they just forgot...
My friends and I have been playing Terraria a lot lately and it does both the gear and component drops which I feel is the best as you get the good feeling of that rare sword or spell you've been wanting as well as the parts for the armor you need.
I've watched this amazing video so many times over the years.
Well, look at Monster Hunter series.
Maybe you just need an upfront exposition of what you can craft.
In Monster Hunter the true feel good moment is, when this Big ass super fast and dangerous monstrosity dies.
It isn´t so much about the loot and you just have to kill most things only a few times to get what you want and you can focus farm what you need.
Nice profile pic buddy
Overmind97 But it's still farming. And a lot. That Rathalos Plate made me see more Rathalos faces than the devs themselves modelling it.
And yeah, you're right. But without a good looking awesome equipment, you wouldn't feel so badass. Or you would, depends on your playstyle. I know I wouldn't.
Burning Magyk Thanks, buddy. Junpei is the best.
Narabedla: Not only that, but it's more about getting that really rare item like the gem or the plate.
However they are getting better about it where they let you either use substitutes that you're tossing out, or make it easier to get provided you accomplish specific objectives per map. Or they let you trade for the items with another item that you can accomplish through different means.
Say, from world - The Wyverian Prints are items that you can exchange for some rare drops. You get these not by RNG, but by accomplishing specific objectives available to you per week. These objectives are made to encourage you to play more - but it makes you *feel* like you earned it when you get the print and can exchange it for the rare item, much like how it feels you earned it when you killed a million monsters for the gem.
Even then, some items are more available if you accomplish specific objectives. I want a Nergigante horn... so I'll try to break Nerigante's horns, it increases the chance to do it. And in the more recent games, it *actually* does it. Not "Gives you another roll of the dice... at 1% chance each."
"[...] The results aren't going to influence anything, but [...]"
*picture of Obama vs. Romney presidential race*
One thing I like about Jo Ann Fabrics and Crafts is they give a coupon out regularly of 40%, & 50% for one item - the gifts are taken off when the order is finalize.
Although it is quite late to be offering suggestions, I thought of a way to make the crafting work like traditional drops.
The game announces what the item can be used for upon discovering it.
3D videos
yaaay im gonna have now more real conferention feelz
"This video gonna be with SnoopVision in 4.06.2065."
-_-
kinda like in minecraft where most mobs drop crafting materials
+Steven Karabelas Or like Terraria, where those materials are actually useful BURN
+DethHydra That argument is old and pointless.
+DethHydra Mods are where it's at, though :P.
+DethHydra At least Minecraft gets updated more often ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Super late to do the survey, but I love the component idea. I play a shit ton of borderlands and yes it's a loot drop game, the guns have different stats bases on tge comports they have: Dahl stock, bandit grip, vladalf barrel, tedior sight, and even the name prefixes give the gun better or worse stats.
this loot system that Daniel proposed remembers me of the Farcry 3 system of loot and crafting and hell it works to keep my attention!
isnt this not like Monster Hunter? kill monsters, use their hide or other materials to craft, rinse and repeat.
Cyanide Dildo haha i just commented about monster hunter, scrolled down three comments then saw this.
Monster Hunter preys on this trope though. It has yet to be implemented intuitively. And believe me, as a Monster Hunter apologist, that makes me incredibly sad.
To explain: In MH, as I'm sure you know since you mentioned it, there are different tiers of materials you need. I'm not talking their in-game "rarity;" That simply serves as Capcom's economy eradication. No, I mean the really, really rare shit like Plates in Hard quests, Gems and such in G quests, and Pure Horns and such in +/DLC quests. The shit you have to sacrifice virgin goats to RNJesus for.
Monster Hunter derives it's playtime from that mechanic. Once you've beaten the monsters, if you're not a rube, you've learned their patterns. Then it comes time to farm those insanely rare drops, like any other multi-player RPG.
Unfortunately, Diablo III is the closest thing we have to a sustainable system using both items and resources. Unfortunately because it's crafting system is incredibly shallow without hours upon hours of grinding Greater Rifts for ancient items to get the best bonuses. And even then, you can only change one random property among a limited selection of others. Games just don't factor this in a lot because of the huge increase in development that would be needed to balance both sides and make it rewarding without taking all the power out of the adventure itself.
If you could "make" the best items, why would you spend the effort to complete the "challenges" which drop equal-tiered loot? Conversely, if the best items in the game come only from bosses or loot boxes, why bother mucking with a crafting system that takes just as much time without even coming close to the power plateau?
I really comes down to a good crafting system. I love crafters in MMORPG but they been puched away as a focus in these theme park games and it sucks.
I've worked in sales. Humans are cattle, easily herded through old instinctual subconscious thoughts and manipulated emotionally.
It was one of the most depressing realizations I've ever had.
Lineage 2.
Crafting Components as 99.99% of Loot and the 00.01% Being full items, crafting was what moved the economy and it simply felt absurdly more satisfying than a random drop, but due to the drops rarity, they were also treasured.
i dig the components drops. monster hunter has this and part of its appeal comes from literally carving the components off of your kill, which is pretty cool. Though it's a little more complex to manage resources wisely at first, knowing the value of certain items and whatnot, surprisingly after awhile that too became part of the fun.