I'm reading this book - it's great! To me, it seems more daunting to witness to someone under false doctrine than to a non-believer. The latter seems almost like a clean slate to work with. The former will most likely stubbornly defend what they've spent time hearing, learning, and believing. There may be strong family traditions tied to their faith as well, that can be extremely difficult to separate from.
So true everything you said, Bryan. There is a kind of understandable ''anti-dogmatism'' nowadays, because of the confusion many ''dogmas'' caused to people and because of the general relativism of our mainstream culture. People think Christianity is all about ''love''. ''Protestants'' say the same nowadays. ''Believe to Christ and love humans'' is their theology. But they forget that the Reformation erupted not because the Roman church didn't teach Christ and love (Europe was full if institutes, hospitals, orphanages etc the Roman church had built in order poor people can find love, hope and food), but because of the false doctrine on soteriology, because the Roman church taught, and still teaches, synergy, which is ''you can love Christ by your own and love the other human being by your abilities also'' which is ''faith AND works and you 're ok'' (this is what evangelicalism teaches also). The Reformation said ''this is a big mistake, we can NOT love God and humans after Adam's fall, we can do nothing so we can save ourselves, we can NOT trust ourselves and our deeds, we trust only to Jesus, our salvation is by grace, though faith, without works''. Today it happens to me to realize that the synergist (arminian) doctrine has prevailed. The Roman church is the winner. People find more logical Roman teaching than the one the Reformation taught (monergism), i.e. the Gospel of Grace. For us, the Reformation conitues not against the Roman church or the Eastern orthodox church or the many ancient heresies that still exist, but agains modern protestantism also which hijacked genuine protestant dogma.
I'm re-reading your book. The first time I read it my family was just coming out of a seeker-sensitive church and I could not understand it. It's sad that most of what you critiqued seemed normal/ok/good to me. I am so grateful that God, through His word and faithful preachers & teachers, allowed me to see how wrong I was. I still have so much to learn, but am eager to read God's word now and long to know the truth (instead of what feels/sounds good). Thanks for your videos Pastor Wolfmueller. They are helping me and my family so much!
A fabulous description graciously delivered! If us old cranky Lutheran's can argue with Christ's winsome grace we might meet with more willing listeners 🤔 😄
Real doctrine worth arguing over is about Christ. His person and work The free gift of salvation in word/sacraments Worshipping him out of love and gratitude. There’s three things worth getting right.
I have experienced how false doctrine eats away at faith. Thankfully, God pulled me out each time and set me aside till I could see it. He is a patient and gracious God.
I love Pastor Wolfmueller's approach... It's a challenge for me to contend for the faith without taking on an angrily confrontational attitude. When we are confronted with false doctrine, our natural response is to become angry because it's not only an attack on our faith but an affront to God. Patience, kindness, and love coupled with a willingness to listen is much more valuable than an eagerness to clobber away in anger and vindictiveness. It's a shame that words like "contentious" and "dogmatic" have come to be synonymous in the English language with aggressive narrow-mindedness and stubborn pigheadedness. Still, we cannot budge from the truth, and sometimes an angry response may even be the best one. It's figuratively "kick the dog - comfort the child" discerning each situation while leaning more heavily on the latter approach until proven otherwise.
Where in the Bible, any translation will be useful, does it say that when others read/ study the Bible and come to different conclusions ( dogma, theology, interpretation ) the first response should be anger? This is a major block to teaching. And what makes anyone think that their personal sincerity on any theological subject makes them right and others wrong? Too easy to fall into self righteous arrogance and contempt. Where is the Christian love in all that anger response?
it's understandable for surtain christians to see these denominational differences and how it could disturb to the ones who are non believer, and be brought into our own ideas of let's just forget about the differences and let's just focus on getting this non believer to be close to God and all though and in our bias thought as human beings we think that and it's normal cause we try to think positively here and trying to bring love and peace and not confusions to others... But we have to go by the scriptures instead of our own ideas and thoughts, if we can't based our teaching to save a life through Scriptures then that salvation can be in jeopardy cause of false doctrine and not Scriptures and its so very true for Bryan Wolfmueller...
I will definitely check out the book! Great answer. This is all kind of the offspring of the diversity induced at Babel. We need these different perspectives to challenge us so we can distill what it is true. The problem isn't the division or the battle, but the level of animosity that typically accompanies it.
Mission Zer0: No, the real problem is the “disease” (i.e., false doctrine). While animosity is contrary to Christ and is to be repented. It is easy to focus on a person’s improper response and loose track of what kills - false doctrine. As in Pastor Wolfmueller’s analogy, the attitude of the chemo doctor may be unpleasant but it is the cancer that will kill you. Pax.
@@rickpettey8822 I know what you're saying, but I sort of disagree. False doctrine isn't really the cancer, it's the cigarette. Hearing false doctrine doesn't harm you; believing in it harms you. No one causes you to believe, nor can they. Your discernment is the key there. To protect from false doctrine you don't silence every corrupt voice - nor, in fact, could you - but sharpen your own discernment. This is what Scripture means when it says to test every spirit. Babel showed what happens when people have a single doctrine: they cease thinking critically. It is the contrast of ideas - the good ones and the bad ones - that makes us to sharpen our discernment. I'm not saying we should throw our support behind false teaching, but rather I am saying that if our discernment is operating properly false doctrine is not at all the main threat (or even really much of one). Back to the cigarette analogy: I don't desire to smoke regardless how many packs, or smokers, I'm around. So it doesn't need to be my mission to eliminate them. Rather, I focus my efforts on the reasons behind why people grab that pack. In the case of false doctrine I find it is largely the animosity in the debate that causes people to go off into the weeds in all different directions. We should be trying to correct false teachers, but to do that we can't just shout them down.
I have to, most definitely, get this book. Most definitely!!! I am big on doctrine, however, I don't allow it to cause division. I do believe the problem comes with the perspective of the scripture. This is why cultural hermeneutic and just hermeneutics in general, is important. This will be the next book I read.
Thank you pastor. I have come to the conclusion that most christians believe other christians aren't ... christians. I just had a discution with a Baptist that confirm my belief. In my mind, someone who believe in Christ and confess it (as the Holy Bible says so) is christian.
I cant say that i have "NOT" argued about Doctrine but if somebody says something you never heard of then its normal to speak up. That is just how humans are.. (we Humans)
Because you never heard of it, that automatically makes you right and them mistaken? This is among the things that make me impatient with those of multiple denominations , especially the Roman Catholics , Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, and others. But, it is not up to me. It is up to God. God sends us out into the world to spread the good news of Jesus through the Gospel of Salvation. Jesus says, “ Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not will be condemned” Mark 16:15. Mark wrote the first of the Gospels, but modern day theologians have doubted that all the words were his. Shall we stand with the side for originality or shall we stand with the side who says altered? Dispute is a recurring theme for those who study the Bible and all the history accompanying it. Where the disputes become really high minded and arrogant theological verbiage is liberally scattered through out the discourse. I have thought that the language of these Bible scholars was intended to put less illustrious scholars in their proper place.
Discussion of doctrine is vital, as doctrine is what we actually teach and preach. Our soteriological position matters for example, because it articulates what it is we actually believe and share as to the matter of salvation. Is justification a monergistic work or synergistic cooperation for example? The doctrinal stance on that will determine what it is that constitutes both Law and Gospel to the world, from our lips, hands and actions.
Doctrine can be central to how many can be saved. Both the eternal torment doctrine and the works for salvation doctrine are entirely likely to push persons away from salvation. When one doggedly clings to these non-biblical views even in the face of the text and driving people away, we have to question if their motive is based in the interests of God at all.
The reason people do not know Christ is because they don’t know doctrine. The doctrine of Christ and Grace is the means by which God saves, and this is why uneducated men behind the pulpit lead people to hell. People who are leading are blind ,and they do not build up the church in the truth to push them forward in good works. This is why the reformation we see a big understanding of doctrine and then a big push of missions and translations of the Bible in different languages. To know doctrine is to know Christ and how can people be saved if people who don’t know Christ are preaching about Him?
Villarreal Marta: Yes, we most definitely want proclaim. But proclaim WHAT? The WHAT is doctrine. Jesus is Lord is doctrine. Jesus is my Savior is doctrine. Jesus is God, the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity is doctrine. WHAT we are called to proclaim is doctrine. That is why Jesus and His apostles ALL repeatedly commanded that only pure doctrine was to be accepted by the church. Please take no offense but for the life of me I cannot understand the battle against doctrine by many within Evangelicalism.
Rick Pettey interestingly tonight I had a bible study with a friend from Nigeria and we studied to know Jesus no doctrine was discussed only getting to know Christ as our Lord and Savior. We drew near our Lord in his Word and we learned more about what he’s done for us. God is a person who made us to have fellowship with him and for us to be his bride, he’s not a doctrine on a piece of paper.
Villarreal Marta: I understand. But you missed my point entirely. You say you simply sight to know Jesus Christ as Savior. Ok, Savior from what? From your sins. Now you are confessing doctrine. To even talk about Jesus is to speak about who He is. He is the Son of God, God in the flesh (Jn. 1:1,14) the Christ. All of this is doctrine. What were the apostles to teach the church? Right doctrine. (Titus 2:1; 1:9; Rom. 16:17; Eph. 4:14; 1 Tim. 6:3, etc.,). This aversion to “doctrine” is a modern notion and is rooted in our pun sinful nature. Please understand, I am in no way implying that you are not Christian. Rather like Peter you are following your emotions and not the pure Word of God (Matt. 16: 21-23). Without doctrine there is no Christian Faith.
Rick Pettey look, when Jesus stood at Peter’s side and Peter looked into his face, Jesus didn’t look to him and say; I am doctrine. Peter could see that he was the living God. That’s what I’m saying. Man made doctrine to shape his religion. The essence of what I trust in by faith is not a statement on paper, but my faith is built on Jesus Christ himself who said: I am the way, the truth, and the life. That’s not a doctrine, that’s who he is. Another example is myself to my wife. She loves me, and she doesn’t turn away from me. She doesn’t do this because of any doctrine, but because her heart is tied to me in love. This is the same as when we follow Christ. We are betrothed to him as a person whom we love.
Villarreal Marta: Sir, it seems to me that we are talking past each other. Let me approach differently. Imagine that you believed in Jesus but you didn't believe that He is God in the flesh but merely a creation of God. Would your faith in Him save you? Your answer will help clarify what you are saying. With respect. Thank you.
I believe you're totally wrong Catholics do not have the true gospel Orthodox Christians do not have the true gospel I believe the lutherans do have the true gospel I believe the Baptist Church does well some of the Baptist Church does have the true gospel and other churches around the country have the true gospel the only thing that divides us is differences and minor doctrines that really don't pertain to salvation and that's why the bickering amongst us is foolishness
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I'm reading this book - it's great! To me, it seems more daunting to witness to someone under false doctrine than to a non-believer. The latter seems almost like a clean slate to work with. The former will most likely stubbornly defend what they've spent time hearing, learning, and believing. There may be strong family traditions tied to their faith as well, that can be extremely difficult to separate from.
So true everything you said, Bryan. There is a kind of understandable ''anti-dogmatism'' nowadays, because of the confusion many ''dogmas'' caused to people and because of the general relativism of our mainstream culture. People think Christianity is all about ''love''. ''Protestants'' say the same nowadays. ''Believe to Christ and love humans'' is their theology. But they forget that the Reformation erupted not because the Roman church didn't teach Christ and love (Europe was full if institutes, hospitals, orphanages etc the Roman church had built in order poor people can find love, hope and food), but because of the false doctrine on soteriology, because the Roman church taught, and still teaches, synergy, which is ''you can love Christ by your own and love the other human being by your abilities also'' which is ''faith AND works and you 're ok'' (this is what evangelicalism teaches also). The Reformation said ''this is a big mistake, we can NOT love God and humans after Adam's fall, we can do nothing so we can save ourselves, we can NOT trust ourselves and our deeds, we trust only to Jesus, our salvation is by grace, though faith, without works''. Today it happens to me to realize that the synergist (arminian) doctrine has prevailed. The Roman church is the winner. People find more logical Roman teaching than the one the Reformation taught (monergism), i.e. the Gospel of Grace. For us, the Reformation conitues not against the Roman church or the Eastern orthodox church or the many ancient heresies that still exist, but agains modern protestantism also which hijacked genuine protestant dogma.
I'm re-reading your book. The first time I read it my family was just coming out of a seeker-sensitive church and I could not understand it. It's sad that most of what you critiqued seemed normal/ok/good to me. I am so grateful that God, through His word and faithful preachers & teachers, allowed me to see how wrong I was. I still have so much to learn, but am eager to read God's word now and long to know the truth (instead of what feels/sounds good). Thanks for your videos Pastor Wolfmueller. They are helping me and my family so much!
Anything against revivalism and decisionism is gold.
Looking back at this because we're currently discussing conflict within the church. Very good points being made and very helpful.
Those circles made sense. Thanks for clarifying.
A fabulous description graciously delivered! If us old cranky Lutheran's can argue with Christ's winsome grace we might meet with more willing listeners 🤔 😄
I love the illustration, it was very illuminating about how we fight with reach other even when we otherwise fight against each other.
Merry Christmas 🎅
Real doctrine worth arguing over is about Christ.
His person and work
The free gift of salvation in word/sacraments
Worshipping him out of love and gratitude.
There’s three things worth getting right.
I have experienced how false doctrine eats away at faith. Thankfully, God pulled me out each time and set me aside till I could see it. He is a patient and gracious God.
I love Pastor Wolfmueller's approach... It's a challenge for me to
contend for the faith without taking on an angrily confrontational
attitude. When we are confronted with false doctrine, our natural
response is to become angry because it's not only an attack on our
faith but an affront to God. Patience, kindness, and love coupled with
a willingness to listen is much more valuable than an eagerness to
clobber away in anger and vindictiveness. It's a shame that words like
"contentious" and "dogmatic" have come to be synonymous in the English
language with aggressive narrow-mindedness and stubborn pigheadedness.
Still, we cannot budge from the truth, and sometimes an angry response
may even be the best one. It's figuratively "kick the dog - comfort the child"
discerning each situation while leaning more heavily on the latter approach
until proven otherwise.
Where in the Bible, any translation will be useful, does it say that when others read/ study the Bible and come to different conclusions ( dogma, theology, interpretation ) the first response should be anger? This is a major block to teaching. And what makes anyone think that their personal sincerity on any theological subject makes them right and others wrong? Too easy to fall into self righteous arrogance and contempt. Where is the Christian love in all that anger response?
We fight where the Lord has put us. Exactly. I tend to be in certain inner Christian ones because those things grieve me more.
I think I need to hear this ever day..thnx ..God bless you
Great book. Paul was pretty concerned about doctrine.
it's understandable for surtain christians to see these denominational differences and how it could disturb to the ones who are non believer, and be brought into our own ideas of let's just forget about the differences and let's just focus on getting this non believer to be close to God and all though and in our bias thought as human beings we think that and it's normal cause we try to think positively here and trying to bring love and peace and not confusions to others...
But we have to go by the scriptures instead of our own ideas and thoughts, if we can't based our teaching to save a life through Scriptures then that salvation can be in jeopardy cause of false doctrine and not Scriptures and its so very true for Bryan Wolfmueller...
I will definitely check out the book! Great answer. This is all kind of the offspring of the diversity induced at Babel. We need these different perspectives to challenge us so we can distill what it is true. The problem isn't the division or the battle, but the level of animosity that typically accompanies it.
Mission Zer0: No, the real problem is the “disease” (i.e., false doctrine). While animosity is contrary to Christ and is to be repented. It is easy to focus on a person’s improper response and loose track of what kills - false doctrine. As in Pastor Wolfmueller’s analogy, the attitude of the chemo doctor may be unpleasant but it is the cancer that will kill you. Pax.
@@rickpettey8822 I know what you're saying, but I sort of disagree. False doctrine isn't really the cancer, it's the cigarette. Hearing false doctrine doesn't harm you; believing in it harms you.
No one causes you to believe, nor can they. Your discernment is the key there. To protect from false doctrine you don't silence every corrupt voice - nor, in fact, could you - but sharpen your own discernment. This is what Scripture means when it says to test every spirit.
Babel showed what happens when people have a single doctrine: they cease thinking critically. It is the contrast of ideas - the good ones and the bad ones - that makes us to sharpen our discernment.
I'm not saying we should throw our support behind false teaching, but rather I am saying that if our discernment is operating properly false doctrine is not at all the main threat (or even really much of one).
Back to the cigarette analogy: I don't desire to smoke regardless how many packs, or smokers, I'm around. So it doesn't need to be my mission to eliminate them. Rather, I focus my efforts on the reasons behind why people grab that pack.
In the case of false doctrine I find it is largely the animosity in the debate that causes people to go off into the weeds in all different directions. We should be trying to correct false teachers, but to do that we can't just shout them down.
I have to, most definitely, get this book. Most definitely!!! I am big on doctrine, however, I don't allow it to cause division. I do believe the problem comes with the perspective of the scripture. This is why cultural hermeneutic and just hermeneutics in general, is important. This will be the next book I read.
Nose-blindness???? I haven’t heard that term before.
I have this book, need to read it!
This is eye opening.
Loved the book and I agree with you Pastor, they should have let you name it what you wanted to instead of “Has American Christianity Failed?”
Thank you pastor.
I have come to the conclusion that most christians believe other christians aren't ... christians.
I just had a discution with a Baptist that confirm my belief.
In my mind, someone who believe in Christ and confess it (as the Holy Bible says so) is christian.
I cant say that i have "NOT" argued about Doctrine but if somebody says something you never heard of then its normal to speak up. That is just how humans are.. (we Humans)
Because you never heard of it, that automatically makes you right and them mistaken? This is among the things that make me impatient with those of multiple denominations , especially the Roman Catholics , Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, and others. But, it is not up to me. It is up to God. God sends us out into the world to spread the good news of Jesus through the Gospel of Salvation. Jesus says, “ Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not will be condemned” Mark 16:15. Mark wrote the first of the Gospels, but modern day theologians have doubted that all the words were his. Shall we stand with the side for originality or shall we stand with the side who says altered? Dispute is a recurring theme for those who study the Bible and all the history accompanying it. Where the disputes become really high minded and arrogant theological verbiage is liberally scattered through out the discourse. I have thought that the language of these Bible scholars was intended to put less illustrious scholars in their proper place.
Discussion of doctrine is vital, as doctrine is what we actually teach and preach. Our soteriological position matters for example, because it articulates what it is we actually believe and share as to the matter of salvation. Is justification a monergistic work or synergistic cooperation for example? The doctrinal stance on that will determine what it is that constitutes both Law and Gospel to the world, from our lips, hands and actions.
I don't know how you can know Christ without knowing what he taught. Doctrines ARE teachings!
Timeless.
I love the idea that fales Doctrine takes away from Jesus Christ,, thats profound!!!!!❤❤❤
Doctrine can be central to how many can be saved. Both the eternal torment doctrine and the works for salvation doctrine are entirely likely to push persons away from salvation. When one doggedly clings to these non-biblical views even in the face of the text and driving people away, we have to question if their motive is based in the interests of God at all.
False doctrine leads to false converts.
Real believers love each other and the theology and traditions fall by the wayside. But yes fales teaching is an issue
Nothing spells stupidity quite like religious beliefs.
The reason people do not know Christ is because they don’t know doctrine. The doctrine of Christ and Grace is the means by which God saves, and this is why uneducated men behind the pulpit lead people to hell. People who are leading are blind ,and they do not build up the church in the truth to push them forward in good works. This is why the reformation we see a big understanding of doctrine and then a big push of missions and translations of the Bible in different languages. To know doctrine is to know Christ and how can people be saved if people who don’t know Christ are preaching about Him?
Sola Scriptura makes opinion Gospel.
We need to just proclaim. The word will do the rest. Rom. 9:6
Villarreal Marta: Yes, we most definitely want proclaim. But proclaim WHAT? The WHAT is doctrine. Jesus is Lord is doctrine. Jesus is my Savior is doctrine. Jesus is God, the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity is doctrine. WHAT we are called to proclaim is doctrine. That is why Jesus and His apostles ALL repeatedly commanded that only pure doctrine was to be accepted by the church. Please take no offense but for the life of me I cannot understand the battle against doctrine by many within Evangelicalism.
Rick Pettey interestingly tonight I had a bible study with a friend from Nigeria and we studied to know Jesus no doctrine was discussed only getting to know Christ as our Lord and Savior. We drew near our Lord in his Word and we learned more about what he’s done for us. God is a person who made us to have fellowship with him and for us to be his bride, he’s not a doctrine on a piece of paper.
Villarreal Marta: I understand. But you missed my point entirely. You say you simply sight to know Jesus Christ as Savior. Ok, Savior from what? From your sins. Now you are confessing doctrine. To even talk about Jesus is to speak about who He is. He is the Son of God, God in the flesh (Jn. 1:1,14) the Christ. All of this is doctrine. What were the apostles to teach the church? Right doctrine. (Titus 2:1; 1:9; Rom. 16:17; Eph. 4:14; 1 Tim. 6:3, etc.,). This aversion to “doctrine” is a modern notion and is rooted in our pun sinful nature. Please understand, I am in no way implying that you are not Christian. Rather like Peter you are following your emotions and not the pure Word of God (Matt. 16: 21-23). Without doctrine there is no Christian Faith.
Rick Pettey look, when Jesus stood at Peter’s side and Peter looked into his face, Jesus didn’t look to him and say; I am doctrine. Peter could see that he was the living God. That’s what I’m saying. Man made doctrine to shape his religion. The essence of what I trust in by faith is not a statement on paper, but my faith is built on Jesus Christ himself who said: I am the way, the truth, and the life. That’s not a doctrine, that’s who he is.
Another example is myself to my wife. She loves me, and she doesn’t turn away from me. She doesn’t do this because of any doctrine, but because her heart is tied to me in love. This is the same as when we follow Christ. We are betrothed to him as a person whom we love.
Villarreal Marta: Sir, it seems to me that we are talking past each other. Let me approach differently. Imagine that you believed in Jesus but you didn't believe that He is God in the flesh but merely a creation of God. Would your faith in Him save you? Your answer will help clarify what you are saying. With respect. Thank you.
I believe you're totally wrong Catholics do not have the true gospel Orthodox Christians do not have the true gospel I believe the lutherans do have the true gospel I believe the Baptist Church does well some of the Baptist Church does have the true gospel and other churches around the country have the true gospel the only thing that divides us is differences and minor doctrines that really don't pertain to salvation and that's why the bickering amongst us is foolishness