Apparently, Jay and Gavin were the names of his two sons. (Which seems weird, was he really trying to fool the DC editors? Seems like he'd pick some other pseudonym? I dunno.) Interesting, found this: www.webcitation.org/5lXJY5e28?url=povonline.com/iaq/IAQ05.htm
The only times Toth worked for Marvel besides this (that I’m aware of) was one of Atlas’ western comics (again, inked by Colletta) and three Zorro covers he did in 1990.
It’s a little puzzling to me that Wood didn’t do more inking at Marvel, especially over prolific powerhouses like Kirby? Maybe I don’t know what im talking about but he seems like the one guy that was so good and fast he could’ve given Colletta competition and turned in inks that the pencilled would’ve been overjoyed with?
Btw, the Toth panels look very much like George Tuska who was heavily influenced by Toth. (I think Iron Man when he was drawn by both Don Heck and Tuska, looked like Toth.)
If you like this you should get your hands on a copy of Savage Tales #4. I've always liked it when two artists collaborate on a story and you get to see a perfect blend of both artists styles. That issue of Savage Tales has always been one of my favorites for just that reason. The Conan story was penciled by Gil Kane and Neal Adams, and every panel looks like the perfect love child of the two artists. I think perhaps Kane handled the breakdowns and Adams finished the pencils. It was then inked by "Diverse Hands" according to the splash page. Supposedly that was Adams, Pablo Marcos, and Colletta. Well worth checking out.
4:56 - Whoa! That panel that you point to - I was thinking the same thing, that it definitely looks like a Toth face. I pulled up my copy of this issue re-printed in the hardcover "Marvel Masterworks Volume 7" reprinting X-Men 11-19 and in my copy that panel has a lot more line work in it! There are a lot more thin lines in that face. And, just quickly scanning the rest of that page, Professor X in panel 1 also has more lines in his face; and there is more rain in panels 4, 5, 6 and 7. Interesting. I guess a lot of the thinner lines didn't get picked up when printed on that cheaper newsprint?
I remember being super disappointed by this issue when I was reading early X-Men for the first time. Can't believe it was an Alex Toth book! Just so weird.
It wasn't helped by the fact that this issue (#12) was the first Kirby did not pencil and that he was still doing incredible covers. I think he probably drew the cover first and designed Juggernaut. Most issues afterwards looked washed-out and dull in comparison. The only reason I can think of for Colletta that makes sense, other than that they were short-staffed, was a time crunch. Every artist is diminished by every other artist. In an ideal world, you let Toth do his own layouts, which were brilliant, and (if he's unable to ink) you find an inker who won't muzzle him. Even Don Heck inks would've been more compatible.
Romita finishes always upgrade the pencils pretty much no matter who it is, but he and Kirby were spectacular together on Daredevil. Oh the thought of Toth and Kirby gelling tho... what a shame it never happened! :(
Also, the problem with somebody other than Kirby doing layouts is that Stan would’ve actually had to sit down and write something besides the credit boxes. Yeah, I said it!! ;)
Kirby’s original design for the Juggernaut was far different in at least the first drawing he did of the character, the helmet was more traditional and flat on top and he had spikes coming out in... odd places? ;) Anyways, I’d love to think that means Toth designed the Juggernaut costume we’re all familiar with today, but... who knows?
X-Men 12 was the first X-Men comic I purchased off the stands. I loved it; I collected the title from then on. I didn’t really know Kirby from Toth at the time (I was nine) but I thought it was one of the more dramatic and suspenseful stories that I had read. I loved the end panel and couldn’t wait for the next issue. So I do disagree with the critique that the last panel with the fully revealed figure of the Juggernaut seems somewhat a letdown. I see it as dramatically conveying that the unstoppable villain is now face-to-face with Prof X, using an effective camera angle with an over-the-shoulder POV so that the reader, being fully engaged in the drama that just unfolded- now sees what Prof X sees. It’s great story-telling from a time when the primary emphasis was on telling the story thru the use of tiered page layouts. And the Juggernaut was rather impressive. Even given the constraints of the time, the Juggernaut looked pretty awesome. Take a look at what was being published at the time: at DC the Legion had just faced “the Super-Moby Dick of Space” (a cartoon whale). Superman was still fighting silly-looking cartoon bug aliens and Batman had just received his “New Look”. Now, Gil Kane was starting to do some interesting designs in Green Lantern and getting away from the cartoony looking aliens, so there’s that. I do thank both you guys for showcasing such a special collaboration - it’s the only Marvel super hero comic that Toth worked on. Jack provided a great story and layouts, Toth, though constrained (which is probably why this only happened once), added his stamp on the story, and Vince did a fine job on inks. I’d love to own a page of original art from this issue; I bet they look great in person. I did notice that some of the linework was washed out on the reprint you were looking at - some panels look much better in the original printing. If you’ll humor me, a not-so-quick word on Colletta. While I do think his work was often sub-standard in later years, his work for Marvel in the ‘60s was pretty darn good. I enjoyed his work on Thor; and yes, I learned later on that he would on occasion erase some of Kirby’s pencils, allegedly to speed up his work. That's bad. Especially taken independently. BUT - This was when professionalism in comics meant getting a story out on time, period. You do the best work you can in the time allotted. When you look at all the artists - when they were given a chance (like when DC, Marvel or Charlton artists worked for Jim Warren) and received a better page rate and thus could spend more time on each page, the quality of their work noticeably improved. Starting with FF #1 in 1961, Marvel went for years producing brand-new material for all their regular titles (except starting in ’66 with the western titles) month after month. Never a reprint and you got 12 issues a year for monthly titles and 6 issues a year for bi-monthlies. Issues never missed a month though they might hit the stands late, but it was always new stuff. Even their annuals contained all-new material or at least a new 20 page story. I believe it wasn’t until 1969 that a regular Dr. Strange issue (that had recently spun-off from Strange Tales when Marvel gave all their split-book characters their own titles) reprinted a story from Amazing Spider-Man Annual #2. I recall being shocked when I realized it wasn’t a new story in a regular issue. I think that was the first time that happened, since 1961! The point being that it was more important to make the deadlines - missing an issue just didn’t happen. You turned in the best work you could in the time allotted. Not producing an issue was worse than anything else. A Gene Colan Sub-Mariner story was finished by Jack Kirby because Gene came down with the flu. At other times different inkers would chip in. And if Stan was in a crunch, Vince got a call. There’s a Giant-Man story in Tales to Astonish #61 that Ditko was asked to fill in at the last minute. And it showed. Take a look at it and see what may happen when even a seasoned penciller like Ditko had to knock out a story in a very short time, because not turning in a story was unacceptable. So, in hindsight, Colletta is often maligned when, at the time, he was being as professional as he could. My opinion. Now his later work…
I have a question for the comps that the creator of the book gets. Do you not get all the different versions available. For example when jim got plain Janes he only showed multiple copies of the softcover edition. A hardcover edition also came out, why didn't he get all versions?
Comps vary depending on contractual terms. Most publishers have a standard number of comps in their boilerplate agreement. Of course everything is negotiable until you sign the contract. So comps can be part of that negotiation. If one does a lot of sales personally like at conventions or mail order or does a lot of promotion, one may want more comps than standard and can ask for those in the negotiation stage. RE: The PLAIN Janes - I received a mix of softcover and hardcover. I grabbed the softcover to show off because it was close when I was assembling books for this recording session. Maybe I'll dig out the hardcover next time. - Jim
While I totally understand this sentiment about Colletta, it makes perfect sense to me that he worked for so long, he got books out on time that were late and probably saved editors from a lot of stress? And while it’s easy to be upset at the hatchet job he took to books like Kirby’s Thor, let’s face it, nobody back then figured anybody would’ve noticed or cared, including their audience. Whomever made copies of Kirby’s pencils before Colette inked em is a legend!!! :)
Ooh! Not a great looking book. Would expect and hope for better from Toth/Kirby together. You can see Toth in drawing of hands and Beast feet, and if you look hard, in a face here or there. But Coletta flattened and homogenized most everything, including faces, obviously in favor of not having the book look too shockingly different and Tothlike. Too bad. You guys seem to make much of the silhouettes. They look like cheats compared to how Toth would most often give them highlights and edges to make them more dimensional. All in all this art is clearly a case of the sum of the parts adding up to less than a whole, and far less than such a powerful pair would seem to promise.
Jay Gavin is Werner Roth working under a pseudonym so that his DC editors wouldn’t know that he was working with Marvel.
Apparently, Jay and Gavin were the names of his two sons. (Which seems weird, was he really trying to fool the DC editors? Seems like he'd pick some other pseudonym? I dunno.)
Interesting, found this: www.webcitation.org/5lXJY5e28?url=povonline.com/iaq/IAQ05.htm
Kirby was the cinematic way to do comics. All the comics he did in the 70s and even his less popular 80s comics was my favorite time of the King
The only times Toth worked for Marvel besides this (that I’m aware of) was one of Atlas’ western comics (again, inked by Colletta) and three Zorro covers he did in 1990.
Huge fan of both of these giants but this is neither's best work. However, Wally Wood inking Kirby on Challengers of the Unknown is incredible!
It’s a little puzzling to me that Wood didn’t do more inking at Marvel, especially over prolific powerhouses like Kirby? Maybe I don’t know what im talking about but he seems like the one guy that was so good and fast he could’ve given Colletta competition and turned in inks that the pencilled would’ve been overjoyed with?
I wonder if Wood ever inked Toth, or vice versa?
Jack Kirby + Alex Toth?
Now we need Chester Ghould and Dan DeCarlo.
You can make hand grenades go off high. Called bouncing betties back in the day.
Kirby’s original Juggernaut design: kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/2012/08/24/the-best-laid-out-plans/juggernaut/
Btw, the Toth panels look very much like George Tuska who was heavily influenced by Toth. (I think Iron Man when he was drawn by both Don Heck and Tuska, looked like Toth.)
Good to know, thanks. I'm a Tuska fan from his Iron Man work.
That He-Man figure you mentioned was "Ram-Man"
If you like this you should get your hands on a copy of Savage Tales #4. I've always liked it when two artists collaborate on a story and you get to see a perfect blend of both artists styles. That issue of Savage Tales has always been one of my favorites for just that reason. The Conan story was penciled by Gil Kane and Neal Adams, and every panel looks like the perfect love child of the two artists. I think perhaps Kane handled the breakdowns and Adams finished the pencils. It was then inked by "Diverse Hands" according to the splash page. Supposedly that was Adams, Pablo Marcos, and Colletta. Well worth checking out.
4:56 - Whoa! That panel that you point to - I was thinking the same thing, that it definitely looks like a Toth face. I pulled up my copy of this issue re-printed in the hardcover "Marvel Masterworks Volume 7" reprinting X-Men 11-19 and in my copy that panel has a lot more line work in it! There are a lot more thin lines in that face. And, just quickly scanning the rest of that page, Professor X in panel 1 also has more lines in his face; and there is more rain in panels 4, 5, 6 and 7. Interesting. I guess a lot of the thinner lines didn't get picked up when printed on that cheaper newsprint?
I f****** love u guys ... real comic HEADS ... and amazing artist, keep doing the good work!
13:13 ROFL ...metalic turd.
I remember being super disappointed by this issue when I was reading early X-Men for the first time. Can't believe it was an Alex Toth book! Just so weird.
Metallic turd. Haha
It wasn't helped by the fact that this issue (#12) was the first Kirby did not pencil and that he was still doing incredible covers. I think he probably drew the cover first and designed Juggernaut. Most issues afterwards looked washed-out and dull in comparison. The only reason I can think of for Colletta that makes sense, other than that they were short-staffed, was a time crunch. Every artist is diminished by every other artist. In an ideal world, you let Toth do his own layouts, which were brilliant, and (if he's unable to ink) you find an inker who won't muzzle him. Even Don Heck inks would've been more compatible.
Romita finishes always upgrade the pencils pretty much no matter who it is, but he and Kirby were spectacular together on Daredevil. Oh the thought of Toth and Kirby gelling tho... what a shame it never happened! :(
Also, the problem with somebody other than Kirby doing layouts is that Stan would’ve actually had to sit down and write something besides the credit boxes. Yeah, I said it!! ;)
Woah can't wait to watch this one. That's two big leaguers
13:22.........Ram Man...!!
Great take on ...
Kirby’s original design for the Juggernaut was far different in at least the first drawing he did of the character, the helmet was more traditional and flat on top and he had spikes coming out in... odd places? ;) Anyways, I’d love to think that means Toth designed the Juggernaut costume we’re all familiar with today, but... who knows?
X-Men 12 was the first X-Men comic I purchased off the stands. I loved it; I collected the title from then on. I didn’t really know Kirby from Toth at the time (I was nine) but I thought it was one of the more dramatic and suspenseful stories that I had read. I loved the end panel and couldn’t wait for the next issue.
So I do disagree with the critique that the last panel with the fully revealed figure of the Juggernaut seems somewhat a letdown. I see it as dramatically conveying that the unstoppable villain is now face-to-face with Prof X, using an effective camera angle with an over-the-shoulder POV so that the reader, being fully engaged in the drama that just unfolded- now sees what Prof X sees. It’s great story-telling from a time when the primary emphasis was on telling the story thru the use of tiered page layouts.
And the Juggernaut was rather impressive. Even given the constraints of the time, the Juggernaut looked pretty awesome. Take a look at what was being published at the time: at DC the Legion had just faced “the Super-Moby Dick of Space” (a cartoon whale). Superman was still fighting silly-looking cartoon bug aliens and Batman had just received his “New Look”. Now, Gil Kane was starting to do some interesting designs in Green Lantern and getting away from the cartoony looking aliens, so there’s that.
I do thank both you guys for showcasing such a special collaboration - it’s the only Marvel super hero comic that Toth worked on. Jack provided a great story and layouts, Toth, though constrained (which is probably why this only happened once), added his stamp on the story, and Vince did a fine job on inks. I’d love to own a page of original art from this issue; I bet they look great in person. I did notice that some of the linework was washed out on the reprint you were looking at - some panels look much better in the original printing.
If you’ll humor me, a not-so-quick word on Colletta.
While I do think his work was often sub-standard in later years, his work for Marvel in the ‘60s was pretty darn good. I enjoyed his work on Thor; and yes, I learned later on that he would on occasion erase some of Kirby’s pencils, allegedly to speed up his work.
That's bad. Especially taken independently.
BUT - This was when professionalism in comics meant getting a story out on time, period. You do the best work you can in the time allotted. When you look at all the artists - when they were given a chance (like when DC, Marvel or Charlton artists worked for Jim Warren) and received a better page rate and thus could spend more time on each page, the quality of their work noticeably improved.
Starting with FF #1 in 1961, Marvel went for years producing brand-new material for all their regular titles (except starting in ’66 with the western titles) month after month. Never a reprint and you got 12 issues a year for monthly titles and 6 issues a year for bi-monthlies. Issues never missed a month though they might hit the stands late, but it was always new stuff. Even their annuals contained all-new material or at least a new 20 page story. I believe it wasn’t until 1969 that a regular Dr. Strange issue (that had recently spun-off from Strange Tales when Marvel gave all their split-book characters their own titles) reprinted a story from Amazing Spider-Man Annual #2. I recall being shocked when I realized it wasn’t a new story in a regular issue. I think that was the first time that happened, since 1961!
The point being that it was more important to make the deadlines - missing an issue just didn’t happen. You turned in the best work you could in the time allotted. Not producing an issue was worse than anything else. A Gene Colan Sub-Mariner story was finished by Jack Kirby because Gene came down with the flu. At other times different inkers would chip in. And if Stan was in a crunch, Vince got a call. There’s a Giant-Man story in Tales to Astonish #61 that Ditko was asked to fill in at the last minute. And it showed. Take a look at it and see what may happen when even a seasoned penciller like Ditko had to knock out a story in a very short time, because not turning in a story was unacceptable.
So, in hindsight, Colletta is often maligned when, at the time, he was being as professional as he could. My opinion.
Now his later work…
The original story was from X-men # 12
I have a question for the comps that the creator of the book gets. Do you not get all the different versions available. For example when jim got plain Janes he only showed multiple copies of the softcover edition. A hardcover edition also came out, why didn't he get all versions?
Comps vary depending on contractual terms. Most publishers have a standard number of comps in their boilerplate agreement. Of course everything is negotiable until you sign the contract. So comps can be part of that negotiation. If one does a lot of sales personally like at conventions or mail order or does a lot of promotion, one may want more comps than standard and can ask for those in the negotiation stage. RE: The PLAIN Janes - I received a mix of softcover and hardcover. I grabbed the softcover to show off because it was close when I was assembling books for this recording session. Maybe I'll dig out the hardcover next time. - Jim
@@CartoonistKayfabe Thanks Jim, had it on my mind for a while
Dayamn!!
So strange to see how such a terrible inker worked for so long on major titles.
While I totally understand this sentiment about Colletta, it makes perfect sense to me that he worked for so long, he got books out on time that were late and probably saved editors from a lot of stress? And while it’s easy to be upset at the hatchet job he took to books like Kirby’s Thor, let’s face it, nobody back then figured anybody would’ve noticed or cared, including their audience. Whomever made copies of Kirby’s pencils before Colette inked em is a legend!!! :)
Ooh! Not a great looking book. Would expect and hope for better from Toth/Kirby together. You can see Toth in drawing of hands and Beast feet, and if you look hard, in a face here or there. But Coletta flattened and homogenized most everything, including faces, obviously in favor of not having the book look too shockingly different and Tothlike. Too bad. You guys seem to make much of the silhouettes. They look like cheats compared to how Toth would most often give them highlights and edges to make them more dimensional. All in all this art is clearly a case of the sum of the parts adding up to less than a whole, and far less than such a powerful pair would seem to promise.